Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Chemicals

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(moved from Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre#Poison Gas?)

* I'll start a chemical sub-page soon if no one else does first. What's the best short name to cover all aspects? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Considering Chemical Types

As I recall at the moment, these are the chemicals allegedly used, some maybe two ways of saying the same thing, maybe used in combination, or whatever. Any others could be added for a comprehensive list, and we can look at each one as we do.

  • Chloroform
  • White Phosporous
  • Napalm
  • other/various accelerants
  • yellow-green gas that causes unconsciousness (per survivor Oleh Muzyka)
  • an explosive chemical stored at the trade union hall by the federalists (per possible organizer Andriy Parubiy) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Green Gas

Activist Oleh Muzyka, who escaped the burning building and survived, stated his belief that "the crime in Odessa will not be investigated." He described a "greenish yellow gas that filled the building from floor to ceiling," so that people first suffocated and then were set on fire. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Odessa Green Gas 1.png
There is video support for an unusual gas or smoke of a color like that - dingy yellow-green. This was deployed, however, by whoever, quite prominently outside the building, at the main entrance. It appears on at least a couple of videos, but best in the Mark Gordienko Video at 25:40. This is somewhat early in the events there, just after the front barricade was taken over and started burning, as the first window sills were being lit up. It looks like a simple smoke bomb of a pretty lame color, set off just in front of the left-hand door. It could also be coming out the door, and be what Muzyka spoke of. Or as likely, the same clor smoke bomb here just smoking outside, but inside diespersed alongside some colorless gas ... by the same people with those smoke bombs ... Worth more consideration. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

May be a smoke grenade, which may be used for paintball or by police. A dye is often added to the mix to give color. M18 green-dyed, paintball-type tested. Police may have really strong smoke devices, to smoke bad guys from buildings. (Does not look too heavy on video, may be recreational/light duty police). It's unsophisticated crowd, I would think something fancy is unlikely; while paintball-type smoke grenades are cheap, likely not to difficult to get. --Resup (talk) 00:04, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

As for what this pnysically is, I lean to a simple explanation like a simple smoke bomb. Could be more, but we'll need reasons to start going there. Either way, what interesgts me is who deployed here at the foremer main barricade, where either side might toss it or leave it behind. It's got the similarity to what's described inside, which may not be a coincidence. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

My current guess, semi-short: maybe they set this down and set it off there to say (later, maybe?) the federalists had tried to gas the Maidan people (this batch, non-toxic, not used with toxins, or maybe toxic too but dispersed)> Or, they planned to gas them later, etc. Instead, they lit off some more inside and it only killed them, even though Maidan were inside too (and only some with gas masks - they just didn't get executed during the brief incapacitation, which they got less often because it wasn't directed to areas they were) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Hard to be sure, but it appears that Right Sector initially tried to 'smoke out' people from Kulikovo (reports of Molotovs, some reports on burning tires, and witnesses telling of very thick smoke of undetermined origin). If smoking out would succeed, the Right Sector job will be easier to finish. (As it appears based on statements and actions, the intended job was finishing them off.) Smoke grenades likely were complementing natural smoke from fire (such smoke is gone after predictable time, while actual fire is harder to control ). That did not quite succeed so they had to do the job room-by-room. They may be too busy to tightly correlate this with video footage taken, that would be of Hollywood level than; and probably they are not there yet. One such grenade landed short, or a smoke canister (paintball-style) was activated too early to go inside with it. Deploying one such smoke just for a visual effect is a possibility, looks quite picturesque. Hard to be certain, just my take.

Lots of smoke will deplete oxygen and cut actual fire somewhat, that may or may not be intended. Also if they got tear gas, perhaps people exposed to it in central area will tend to jump, while those locked in the rooms with windows open may be alright to stay. Not certain on details about jumpers (or how much smoke was actually deployed). Something poisonous is indeed unlikely as it would affect all sides. --Resup (talk) 14:33, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Just one point on the "smoking out" option - no. If you want people "out," you get smoke inside and leave the exits open, or make the outside inviting enough they go there. Instead, from early on, as if planned, the ATO forces go in after them. "Smoking them in," following them in, finish them off unseen inside - far better than out on the lawn in plain view. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Witness Descriptions

Hearing on Odessa Massacre in European Parliament, July 12, 2014:

Activist Oleh Muzyka, who escaped the burning building and survived, stated his belief that "the crime in Odessa will not be investigated." He described a "greenish yellow gas that filled the building from floor to ceiling," so that people first suffocated and then were set on fire. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Survivor (alleged) "Inna" (nickname) gives a lot of detail in her account, including on the gas employed.

then there came a thick smoke mixture with gas — i can’t describe it in specific details, but i could not stay surrounded by this mixture for more than a couple minutes ... a couple minutes in this smoke — and you stop realising wat goes on, you lose ability to think or recognise things. as soon as i realised that i start experiencing these things, i put a breething mask and ran away.
while running, i passed a staircase and heard a man shouting from below «ultras are coming up, save yourselves» i then entered an office on the 3rd floor… some 33x-something number, maybe 336.
(she and a couple dozen others barricaded the doors as they could, got tricked into opening it long enough she was shot at, put defenses back up, then suffered a renewed gas attack)
the gas got in and filled the entire space, it was immobile, and had all features of a concetrated gas cloud.
Despite a couple of big windows open, we did not feel any air coming in at all.
We felt this airless situation went forever, although the actual time count might have been 15 mins.
the defending men were holding on as far as they could, and then we saw some of them loosing orientation — the support of shelves and entrance fortification weakened.
once the defences weakened, hell took over: the atackers got inside and killed all the men immediately.... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Vladislav Wojieckowski to Novaya Gazeta:

On the first floor there was a cry: "They're in the building." We ran into another wing of the building, but there was already some gas sprayed there, making it impossible to be there.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Alexey Albu: there was some gas, it mostly resembled tear gas, like Терен (ukr,) but 'much stronger,' 'very pungent and suffocating.' On one of the videos, is can be clearly seen and heard that a Maidan supporter yells near one of the entrances, warning not to go inside, since there is gas deployed inside. I happened to be right above that entrance on the second floor, and I could smell some pungent smell.--Resup (talk) 23:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Vladimir Bodelan

Head of emergency services for Odessa, sacked after the events but later re-instated, Vladimir Bodelan, is an outsider witness to possible chemical effects in the form of people falling from windows.--Caustic Logic (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Died in seconds?

Via AntiMaydan Odessa on VK

Chief lifeguard Odessa Oblast Vladimir Bodelan told some details of the tragic events of May 2 on the Kulikovo Field. According to him, fire central flight of stairs on the first two floors of the House of Trade Unions was literally in seconds. "Then followed some cotton, and it was evident that of cotton instantly fading fire. And at this very moment on the ground were a few people dropped out of the building by the back door. Most of them were still alive, and even on their feet leaving this place. But just a couple of tens of meters fell unconscious, and further the tragic outcome is known to all, "- says Vladimir Bodelan. According lifeguard, most the victims died almost instantly. "It is important as well as all not indifferent people to understand who and why needed to conduct such a horrific murder shares. But I'm sure that 99.9% of people were killed in the building trade unions in seconds, not choking from the smoke or fire eel. But there's forensics, wait their findings, "- he added. Vladimir Bodelan also noted that during the years of service has seen many deaths, but what happened in the Battle of Kulikovo it hard to believe until now.
Murder of Civilians by Right Sector in Ukraine
More details continue to come out regarding the horrible deaths at the House of Trade Unions in Odessa with the head of the Emergency Services Vladimir Bodelan, who was at the scene being dismissed for publishing his eyewitness version of the events on his Facebook page. According to the eyewitness account of the veteran rescuer, who has seen his share of bodies and death, what he saw at the House of Trade Unions was so horrible that it "cannot be real".
In his expert opinion he says the people in the House of Trade Unions all died in seconds and not the slow death of smoke inhalation. He also accounted how people were beaten to death and how the Right Sector brutally killed the people as well as how many people were able to successfully escape the burning building on their feet and then died suddenly on the spot.
He writes that even before the fire and smoke began pouring out of the House of Unions, on floors where there was no fire people were running to the windows trying to get fresh air to breathe. Again this was before the fire. He is 100% certain they were not affected by smoke from the fire. The head of the Emrgency Services says that his rescuers saved more than 350 people, and according to unofficial accounts there were more than 100 people killed in the fire.

I've seen the bodies falling on video. They come is quick pairs, falling like rag dolls, like already dead. I can think of two reasons:

  1. a poison gas that overcomes them just as they jump or get on, or fall off, the window ledge, causing death in almost nanoseconds
  2. (not to poo-poo chemical evidence in general) they were already dead, beaten badly. Someone decided to toss these bodies out the window so it could be said the pavement beat them to death. Or, maybe some chemical... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Full Statement

Vladimir Bodelan on Facebook, May 14

Russian

Я много слышу различных версий произошедшего на Куликовом поле второго мая, много комментариев и обвинений к различным силовым структурам, включая управление ГСЧС в Одесской области, которое я возглавляю.

Все началось с центра города, в обед на телефон 101 поступило сообщение о возгорании автомобиля на улице Греческой. О начале побоища еще ничего не было известно. Буквально через 4 минуты на место вызова прибыл пожарный расчет на пожарном автомобиле. На месте вызова пожара не было, но была группа молодых ребят, более 50 человек, которые преградили возможность машине уехать. Выставили пожарных и силой вытащили водителя из машины, угрожая расправой, если не отдаст ключи. После чего с флагами Украины уехали на ней. В дальнейшем наш пожарный автомобиль использовался этими людьми, как таран в уличных беспорядках. На наши обращения, просьбы они не обращали ни малейшего внимания. Что осталось от пожарного автомобиля, я думаю все видели. Слава Богу, что спасатели не пострадали. По окончанию боев на Греческой, вся толпа ринулась на Куликовое поле. Я с начальником гор управления ГСЧС, как только забрали пожарную машину, выехали к Дому профсоюзов, к этому времени в 19:31 поступили первые звонки о возгорании палаток и силовом противостоянии.

На момент нашего приезда горели палатки. расположенные в центре площади, шел ожесточенный бой, но угрозы жизням людей от горевших палаток не было. Вход в здание был забарикадирован, с обеих сторон продолжалась стрельба, летели бутылки с зажигательной смесью.

Я попытался найти милицию для организации безопасной работы спасателей, так как у центрального входа только начиналось возгорание. Как только заметил, что в хол здания закинули на палках несколько зажженных покрышек, сам набрал оперативного и дал команду на выдвижение наших подразделений. Это было в 19:58. Еще до начала задымления помещений угарным газом, я заметил как из окон зданий высовывались люди с попыткой вздохнуть свежим воздухом. От чего им было так сложно дышать, я не могу ответить, но то, что это точно был не дым от пожара, уверен на 100%.

К моменту подъезда автомобилей, не смотря на виднеющийся огонь в здании, его продолжали закидывать зажигательной смесью и стрелять по окнам. Многотысячная толпа не давала возможности для проезда пожарной машины достаточно долгое время. Самое страшное в этой ситуации то, что пожарные расчеты прибыв к месту вовремя, не могли приступить к ликвидации пожара из-за стрельбы и сопротивления нападавших. До этого уже одна наша машина была захвачена неизвестными и ранее была совершенна попытка захвата пожарной части, и подоспевшие к месту событий пожарные расчеты сразу подверглись натиску враждебной группы, не пропустившей их вперед и пытавшейся повторить захват. Драгоценнейшее время было потрачено на то, чтобы пробиться к Дому профсоюзов.

Я был вынужден договариваться с активистами, как мне показалось руководителями групп бойцов, о том, что нам дадут спокойно и беспрепятственно работать, так как все мои звонки буквально с мольбой об усилении нарядов милиции для обеспечения работы спасателей, на тот момент результата не дали.

На съемках не виден важнейший эпизод этой драмы. Во время наших переговоров с задержавшими нас, одна машина все же пробилась к зданию с тыльной стороны и подразделение вступило в борьбу с огнем, приступили к спасению людей. В 20:09 подразделение приступило к эвакуации людей и тушению пожара. Если бы не они, итог событий 2 мая был бы еще более ужасающим.

Когда стало понятно, что в здании находится гораздо больше людей, чем изначально предполагалось, я вызвал дополнительные силы и автолестницы для эвакуации людей. Это было в 20:10. Уже через 6 минут прибыла автоцистерна и автолестница и пожарные преступили к выводу людей из здания, выносу пострадавших и эвакуации людей по автолестнице. К этому времени толпа расступилась и некоторые стали помогать людям выходить из здания. Несмотря на то, что стрельба по Дому продолжалась, пожарные сделали все, что могли. В ликвидации пожара и спасении людей участвовали более 50 спасателей, включая двух моих заместителей, которые сами шли в огонь и по автолестнице эвакуировали пострадавших с верхних этажей.

Наши спасатели вынесли на руках и вывели более 350 человек. Рискуя здоровьем, они отдавали пострадавшим свои кислородные маски, закрывали собой от агрессивной толпы.

Я не буду склоняться к политическим обсуждениям данного происшествия, но и о том ужасе, который происходил со спасенными людьми, когда они оказывались внизу я промолчать не могу. Их избивали, да так, что другие люди находящиеся еще в здании, отказывались выходить. Пожар был потушен за 45 минут и я благодарен тем, кто нас услышал и помогал нам в спасении жизней людей.

А теперь еще некоторые детали происходящего. Возгорание центрального лестничного марша на первых двух этажах произошло буквально за считанные секунды, после чего последовал какой-то хлопок, и было видно, что от этого хлопка моментально затух огонь. И в эту же секунду на земле оказались несколько человек, выпавших из здания со стороны черного входа. Большинство из них были живы и даже на своих ногах покидали это место. Но буквально через пару десятков метров падали без сознания, и их дальнейший трагический исход всем известен.

Мне важно также как и всем не безразличным людям понимать кому и зачем было нужно проведение такой ужасающей акции убийства. Но я уверен, что 99.9% людей погибли в здании профсоюзов за считанные секунды, а не задохнувшись от дыма или угарев от огня. Но для этого есть судмедэксперты, дождемся их заключения.

На тот вопрос почему пожарные не присутствовали на площади с самого начала поджога палаток и первых упавших бутылок-зажигалок, постараюсь объяснить следующее. Действия и функции госслужбы и его подразделений, определены Кодексом гражданской защиты. Мы не можем ликвидировать пожары и работать в условиях боевых действий, ставя под угрозу жизни спасателей, которые ежедневно и без этого рискуют ее потерять.

Я за 4 года своей работы в МЧС видел очень много погибших людей, не могу забыть ни одного из них. Но то, что произошло на Куликовом поле не может быть реальностью......

English

Google translation

I hear a lot of different versions of what happened on the field of Kulikovo second of May, a lot of comments and accusations to various law enforcement agencies, including the management GSCHS in the Odessa region , which I chair.

It all started with the city center , at lunch on the phone 101 was reported vehicle fire on Greek Street. About the beginning of the carnage , nothing was known. Just 4 minutes to place a call to the fire brigade arrived firetruck . On-site fire call was not, but there was a group of young men, more than 50 people who blocked the opportunity to leave the car . Put fire and force pulled the driver out of the car , threatening violence if not give you the keys . After that, with flags of Ukraine left on it.

In the future, our fire truck used by these people as a battering ram in street riots . Our appeals, requests they did not pay any attention. What remains of the fire engine, I think everyone saw. Thank God that rescuers were not injured. At the end of the fighting on the Greek, the whole crowd rushed to the Kulikovo field.

I am the chief of the mountains management GSCHS once took a fire truck drove to the House of Trade Unions, by this time arrived at 19:31 the first calls about the fire tents and military confrontation.

At the time of our arrival, burned tents. located in the center of the square, was a fierce battle, but the threat to people's lives from the burning tents was not. Entrance to the building was zabarikadirovalis, both sides continued shooting, flying firebombs.

I tried to find the police for safe operation of the rescue organization, as the main entrance just started a fire. Once noticed that cold building threw on some sticks lit tire himself scored quickly and gave the command to advance our units. This was at 19:58. Even before the smoke premises carbon monoxide, I noticed that the windows of the buildings were popping people with an attempt to breathe fresh air. From what they were so hard to breathe, I can not answer, but that it was not just the smoke from the fire, 100% sure.

By the time the car porch, despite the see ot fire in the building, it continued to throw petrol bombs and shoot at the windows. A crowd of thousands made ​​it impossible for the passage of a fire truck for a long time. The worst thing in this situation is that fire brigades arrived at the scene in time, could not start because of fire suppression and fire resistance of the attackers. Until this is one of our car was seized by unknown and previously was perfect attempt to capture the firehouse, and came to the rescue to the scene fire brigades immediately subjected to the onslaught of hostile groups, do not miss them forward and tried to repeat the capture. Precious time was spent trying to get through to the House of Trade Unions.

I was forced to negotiate with the activists, I thought the group leaders fighters that will give us peace and work freely, as all my calls literally pleading to strengthen police presence to ensure the work of rescuers at the time to no avail.

Shooting is not visible on the major episode of this drama. During our talks with detained us , one machine yet made ​​its way to the rear of the building and the unit came into the fight with the fire started to rescue people. At 20:09 unit began evacuation and fire fighting. If they do not, the result of the events on May 2 would be even more terrifying.

When it became clear that the building is far more people than initially thought , I called additional forces and ladders to evacuate people . This was at 20:10 . After 6 minutes and arrived tank ladder and fire transgressed to lifting people out of the building, removal and evacuation of affected people by ladder . By this time, the crowd parted and began to help some people out of the building. Despite the fact that the shooting lasted House, firefighters did everything they could . In extinguishing the fire and rescuing people involved more than 50 rescuers , including two of my deputies, who themselves went to the fire and evacuate the affected ladders from the upper floors.

Our rescuers carried on hands, and brought more than 350 people. Risking health , they gave their victims oxygen masks are covered by the aggressive crowd. I will not bow down to the political discussions of the incident, but the horror that was happening with the rescued men, when they were at the bottom, I can not remain silent . They were beaten, so much so that other people are still in the building, refused to go . The fire was extinguished in 45 minutes and I am grateful to those who heard us and helped us in saving lives.

And now some more details of what is happening . Fire central flight of stairs on the first two floors was literally a matter of seconds, which was followed by some cotton, and it was evident that from cotton instantly fading fire. And at this very moment on the ground were a few people dropped out of the building by the back door . Most of them were still alive , and even on their feet leaving this place. But just a couple of tens of meters fell unconscious, and further the tragic outcome is known to all.

Important to me as well as all not indifferent people to understand who and why it was such a terrible need to hold shares of the murder. But I'm sure that 99.9 % of people were killed in the building trade unions in seconds instead of choking smoke or charcoal fumes from the fire. But there's forensics, wait their findings.

To the question why firefighters were not present on the area from the beginning of arson tents and first - fallen bottles lighters try to explain the following. And functions of public service and its units are defined Code of Civil Protection. We can not eliminate fires and work in the midst of fighting, endangering the lives of rescuers who every day without this risk losing it.

I am 4 years of work in the MOE seen so many dead people can not forget any of them. But what happened on the Kulikovo field can not be a reality......


General

(un-organized) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

"I was at the accident scene and saw a great number of dead people. It was evident that they died instantly, very quickly," the agency quoted Ukraine’s First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema as saying.
"This means that some substance burned which generated gas and this gas quickly affected people who lost consciousness and died on the spot," Yarema told journalists at a briefing in Odessa, RIA reports.
He said the examination of bodies will be carried out to identify the gas.

From the source (cabal official) and the bolded, obviously I don't trust this guy. But is this completely made-up? Or is he talking about something real he maybe knows about already? Is this just to explain why more people didn't try to escape, without mentioning people murdered by guns, bats, phone cords, and shot at as soon as they climbed out windows? There must've been an "accidental" gas. Or a purposeful one ... planted by the Russian provocateurs, of course. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

More here: (Moved from main page.) I think this is bullshit. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

People's Deputy of Ukraine, candidate for president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko noted that the events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario in advance and were prepared special toxic substances.
According to an UNIAN correspondent, he said at a briefing in parliament.
Poroshenko said that the script was developed, which began "with shooting terrorists who were brought from Transnistria, of Russia" and that shooting at people, speaking for a united Ukraine.


This was a NATO military operation, fully coordinated through the US Embassy in Kiev, one using nerve gas and done with full cooperation and support from local authorities. Sources among local law enforcement indicate that 94 additional bodies were removed, all showing signs of death from a chemical nerve agent, identified “probably” as VX. VX or one of a dozen or more derivatives of VX are available in grenade form.
Gasoline was mixed with napalm to form deadly, acrid carbon monoxide. The recipe for these deadly cocktails was created by chemists from Independence Square, but they were not used there. In Odessa, the mixture was employed for the first time and this was no accident: a massacre with a large number of fatalities was needed in order to terrorize the entire country.

More Points

to remember/work in (disposable section) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

"Napaki" photo chronicle shows one of the unity rally's finds in the tent camp, a crate with gas masks - see photo K3 and photo K4. This could mean a few things,whether the crate was genuine or planted. The most helpful to Kiev's stupid story is a clue the pro-Russians meant to unleash some chemical on someone else. Apparently, the damn fools took the chemicals in with them, but forgot their masks outside, and so that's how Putin gassed his own puppets that day. Or, actually, he says "In tents pro-Ukrainian activists recovered boxes with gas mask’s filter." Suggests there was more filters, masks, etc. inside. How was this evidence handled? "Pro-Ukrainian activists burned tents, boxes and everything they found inside pretty quickly. The building was not touched yet." --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Parubiy has stored poison gas in his stupid little story, which he'd hardly float unless he knew some toxic gas was deployed during the mob attack he was ultimately in charge of. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Photo Evidence of Chemical Victims?

Odessa Victims Chemposs 1.png
A strange, lesser-seen photo shows a heavyset, bald-headed guy with fingerless gloves in black (looks a bit familiar...) who apparently died in the fire and was found on the staircase. Like some, his face mainly seems burnt, but differently than usual - almost like chemical burns... I'm pretty sure what we're seeing on his nose and his left hand two huge gobs of mucous, the first he got out, the second one tweaked his nose trying, but he was too clogged and he probably died of suffocation. No other visible injuries, bruises, or anything. Something that causes extreme mucous production was unleased on this guy at least. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
(added rotated, cropped image from that - inset, small size) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Another photo available on that same page] I'd rather not both show and describe here. Just one's bad enough ... this is the face-blackened, but otherwise un-burnt male victim with gray "sunglasses" ( added afterwards for effect?), seen at the very top of the stairwell. I've seen a photo somewhere where he was first seen sitting upright, as he died, but here as in most views he's been tipped back. Unlike some others, I think he's seen where he died (although when and how his face was burned is unclear). That photo, note the gritted teeth, the trickle of liquid from his mouth ... the orange-ish dribbles on his pant leg, and a pool of yellow and red fluid on the stair between his feet. This is the 5th floor, I guess? No more stairs up, at least three visible below. A lighter-than-air gas that does this is suggested. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)