Talk:Al-Houla Before and After the Massacre

Location of April 5th shelling

I found the location of a this video of the April 5th shelling. On the video you can see the minaret of a mosque. The mosque is located on the main street leading east of the clock tower. The camera is facing north along an alley. This alley is 540 meters from the clock tower. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The Mosque of the Faith on this video is the same mosque. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for putting your brain to that, Petri. I could have got it, but hadn't yet. I didn't even watch the mosque video. Does it look the same as this one shown April 6? It might be the building emitting more smoke. And, do you think the two alleys shown are the same? Same basic set-up, but the details seemed different (the one tho is unclear). I'll add the location soon, but first, will google that officer's Arabic name (the given transliteration didn't give any useful hits) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

No hits for the officer that I could identify and decipher. Also, the April 6 videos (minaret, different, damaged, interior, dusty Qurans) show a different mosque -at least two then hit in Al-Houla in those two days. Are they Shi'ite then? I don't know if you can tell from these clues or not. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I still can't say the alleys are the same, nor that they aren't, so they probably are. The clearer view is the spot you IDd here, filmed at the south end of that alley looking north, from the bend/intersection almost. No pile of bodies yet. The blurry video is/would be closer/more north, but what seems the minaret there is actually a power pole. It's about where the minaret should be, so maybe he keeps them lined up really good so they come through visibly as one pole. (??) A tree right by it is a match with the map. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I have seen your mosque before. We should have a list of all mosques and a guide (photos, videos) for identification here: Taldou#Mosques. The two videos I linked are from the same mosque. A north-south shell has thorn through the north and south facing walls of the middle section of the minaret. The second video is from the street, facing west. There is a set of pillars in front of the house, waiting for the second floor. Been there since 2004, maybe before. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The mosque seems to be some kind of rebel headquarters. In the long Jalal video he passes the mosque riding on a motorcycle at 7:42. The rebel flag is painted on the doorway. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

August 7th 2012 massacre

I have collected the videos into a playlist and arranged them into what I believe to be the temporal order. (In the end there are duplicates and two videos from some othewr incident.) Note the third body appearing on the truck in the last video.It is strange, how fast the truck speeds away after the first body is thrown in, but it may be just moving closer to the third body. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Petri, you think the truck is moving? I'll check the audio again. It would be quick, and I don't think it explains the head movements. I'll be back on that soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Does not explain the head movements. The cameraman is never in the truck when it is moving. It just simply speeds away and out of sight. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:09, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, because I did wonder that, but thought basically "it is strange, how fast the truck speeds away after the first body is thrown in," thought there was no such sound, and the head turns the wrong way for that. Checking your playlist now. The last video is short and doesn't show the third body loaded. #1 and 10 are duplicates, you're missing body 2 being carried, and nothing I haven't seen yet. Good to have them all listed though, once they are. Will link to the playlist. I've seen the Aug 29 videos (nose cut off?) but haven't really looked or put them in any context yet) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

My bad, you had the carrying in #4 and duplicates are there on purpose. I still don't see any truck driving. The engine might be running in vid 5/6, but people seem to be standing around doing the inane shouting for the whole time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:23, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Nov. 6 Jalal Video

I'm finally watching this. I don't think I've ever seen Jalal this upset. Bombing damage, dead people, he yells a little. But this time, from video's start, he's really bodily agitated as the area he's in is actually bombed by actual government actions, which I gather he rarely sees. The little kid at 4:08 Jalal helps to run away/back and forth - odd - more civilians living there than I'd expect, whole families. I don't know if I'd say it's chilling, but dramatic for sure, wide-ranging, and full of explosions, sparks, and dust. I feel bad for anyone who was hurt that didn't deserve it. Jalal acts injured at about 11:16. A moment before he wasn't - I think it's the emphatic gestures that did it. Repeated motion injury. I'll finish it later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Could someone please tell me where in Houla this happened? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Jalal starts of at the eastern edge of town. A motorcycle ride via clock tower to MAina street. In the end he is running south along an side street that is 185 meters east of the Main Street. He ends up at the mosque, that is 360 meters south of the clock tower and 280 east of Main Street (360E+280).

CE earlier decided it starts here and ends here. The first, I agree. The latter, I'll presume it's good. That would make nearly a full circle. I watched most of it so far, and the passage through the roundabout area is interesting. Lots of scenery footage that could be useful, but it's all over. 7:34 driving right over the April 5 body pile location. 7:40 rounding the mosque's corner. 8:17 passing the area that looks like a cemetery. It is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

One question: The cameraman takes a ride on the motorcycle. The shadow shows there is no other passenger. They arrive at main street after almost 1 km. How come Jalal suddenly reappears at this spot from nowhere? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Fake video! No, kidding - either they got separate rides, you read the shadow wrong, or something. At 6:50, a man - not Jalal- can be seen starting the motorcycle. Can'tfit three anyway. So... separate rides I guess. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

P.S. – They have electricity: note the sparks from the cut power lines. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:26, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It's during rebel attacks the power goes out. They seem to have tried to get life livable, invited people (human shields) back, so the continued attacks could be seen as endangering more civilians than I thought. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Fake?

One must consider the possibility, that the whole video is staged. Explosives blown up on Main Street when Jalal and his cameraman are filming.

There seem to be genuine jets in the sky, we can see traces of flairs used to distract infrared seeking surface-to-air missiles. The bombers are very accurate in hitting Main Street. Yet the whole episode makes little sense from a military point-of-view. What are the jets trying to hit. There is nothing on Main Street. No one is killed or wounded. Jalal and the others are not at all worried, that the jets might come back for another round. In fact they come back and hit something next to the clock tower. Or is this just pyrotechnics? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Even a true expert might not be able to tell for sure, but that's some synchronized pyrotechnics. We don't know exactly what was hit. The buildings, in some cases, but not what was going on there or thought to be. And their could be dead and injured in there. The examinations are pretty passing. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)