Talk:Smerch attack on Ukraine tank base in Pobeda

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Smerch hits Dmytrivka.jpg

Russia strikes - Ukrainian punishers strike - Israel strikes?

Schastye 31 August

September 4th

Lindsey Hilsum @lindseyhilsum tweets on September 4

Rocket strike on #Ukrainian position this morning 25k fm border nr #Luhansk. Soldiers say #Russians attacked. [1]
#Ukrainian armour abandoned after what soldiers say was #Russian rocket strike. #Luhansk area. [2]
#Ukrainian soldiers say their sleeping area in position near #Luhansk hit by #Russian Smerch rockets overnight. [3]
#Ukrainian military vehicles abandoning camp near Starobilsk, in face of what they say are rockets fired fm #Russia. [4]
Another #Ukrainian military vehicle pulling back from camp west of #Luhansk. [5]
#Ukrainian tanks, APCs and military trucks pulling back along road from #novaidar in face of what soldiers say are Russian Smerch attacks. [6]
#Russia apparently attacking #Ukraine on several fronts, IS rampaging across #Syria & #Iraq, so #Obama has to visit a primary school? Why? [7]
The journey up here to the #Luhansk area showed me what war is like for ordinary #Ukrainians. http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/ukraine-journey/4377 [8]
Tonight @Channel4News I'm reporting from near #Luhansk as #Ukrainian forces retreat. What use #NATO promises of training and equipment? [9]
#Ukrainian soldiers retreating from #Luhansk area: tell #NATO that #Putin won't stop at #Ukraine, just as Hitler didn't stop at Poland. [10]
Ammunition store at #Ukrainian position, hit by #Russian rocket overnight a/c soldiers, still on fire this morning. pic.twitter.com/WthgoFZd5x [11]
Our eyewitness report of #Ukrainian army retreat n of #Luhansk after rocket attacks apparently fm #Russia. bit.ly/1qh4ctz #c4news [12]

Abandoned T-64 Bulat tanks near Lugansk.jpg

Lindsey Hilsum tweets on September 4 this photo of abandoned T-64 Bulat tanks near Lugansk, saying it shows Ukrainian armour abandoned after what soldiers say was Russian rocket strike. Luhansk area.

Location

It seems that the location is the village of Pobjeda between Novoaidar and Starobilsk, some 30 km north of the front lines in Shchastya.

Oliver Carroll tweets on Sept 14th:

Village of Pobeda [victory] becomes Beda [woe], apt transformation given destruction of Ukr military base here Sep 1-3 [13]
Pobeda - ex-operational HQ of Ukr ATO forces (North), now reduced to ashes and rubble. Smerch, grad came from Luhansk. [14]
The photo shows what seems to be the discarded rocket engine of a BM-30 Smerch MRLS rocket. More photos are posted from Dimitrivka some 7 km to the south
Dmitrevka - camp and artillery positions of Ukr amy destroyed over 3/4 September. Estimated 50-200 soldiers killed [15]
On way out of Dmitrievka, Luhansk reg. Judging from gap in trees, missile seems to hv hit tank fm Luhansk direction [16]
Clarification: missiles came very approximately fm S- SSE dir, i.e. Luhansk / E of Luhansk. Unclear fm Russia/ rebel territory [17]

The Novorossiyan armed forces were not known to have any captured Smerch launcers on September 3rd. They reported capturing some later in the week. The rockets could be the smaller BM-27 Uragan that NAF claim to poses, but photos seem to show a 300 mm diameter rocket.

Was the Smerch fired from Russia, some 30 km away? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:25, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It's hard to tell what happened from the photo provided, just the photo is not inconsistent with abandoned armor, for example. Cluster anti-armor Smerch missile can engage 5 targets, (and probably destroy 5 light tanks from atop in favorable conditions e.g. tanks moving in a formation or some other good fortune).
Better against tanks are shaped charge type munitions, and there is one warhead version with 646 shaped charge sub-munitions; but those need a direct hit. Likely they are not self-guided, with such large number of them. So this may need a fairly tight formation to work well.
But there are other weapons, and an old tank may be destroyed by an old RPG. --Resup (talk) 00:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Look at the Twitter links I provided. For comparison here and here is a Smerch. Also note this photo of the vehicle that got a "close shave." -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, stop sign photo on twitter looks like either Smerch or Uragan. The car looks just burned, + possibly some shrapnel. BMP -unclear, and it was messed up with later, e.g. tracks are missing, they should not just evaporate. --Resup (talk) 01:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Some more photos of the destruction in Pobeda. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Reports

  • According to rebels, 27 (rocket)-artillery regiment from Suma was destroyed near Pobeda in the past; than it became a new UAF base, with some fighting reported on 14.09.2014. Now, I do not know details on 27 regiment destruction, neither details nor date, but it appears that in the past 27 regiment from Suma had Uragans (0:35 on video appears to be Uragan; this is a bit smaller than Smerch but otherwise similar). ---That is 2012 recording, in Ukrainian. --Resup (talk) 02:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Ukrainian report about a soldier from 9 battery , Suma rocket Regiment who was burned on 3 September and died 10 September. Report says they were 'hit by Smerch fire'. Well, at least not shaped-charge fire from his condition. And there is some evidence that the Regiment may have Uragans (or Smerchs) itself.--Resup (talk) 02:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Rebels report artillery strikes on 4 September in that area. (It is conceivable that rocket strikes will be called (rocket)-artillery strikes, similar to UAF 27 Regiment description).
  • 04.09.2014 - 9:48 Rebel report night of 3-4 September Based on the intelligence data, artillery of the Army Southeast applied fire raids on enemy reserves near the village Pobeda and near Dmitrovka. Five armored vehicles, twelve trucks with ammunition and fuel, and up to thirty-five personnel were destroyed.
  • 04.09.2014 - 20:11 Rebel report on 4 September. As a result of the application of artillery strikes in the areas of punishers positions near the settlements Pobeda and Dmitrovka, the following were destroyed: tactical missile complex "Tochka-U", up to nine tanks, 14 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers of fourteen BMP and BTR, thirty trucks. Losses in the occupiers manpower were more than sixty men killed and wounded. --Resup (talk) 06:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Video

Death toll?

12th Territorial Battalion

Deputy commander of the 12th battalion of the territorial defense of Kiev Colonel Anton Shapoval said the large number of deaths and injuries as a result of today's fire systems "Smerch" locations of soldiers of the battalion in the village Dmitrovka zone ATO. According to UNIAN , this Shapoval said today, September 4, speaking at a meeting of the session of Kyiv City Council.
Shapoval was given the floor at the beginning of the meeting due to the importance of information. Shapoval said that the 12th Battalion was withdrawn from Lugansk to Dmitrovka.
"At 2.30 am today, their deployment has been fired systems" Smerch "that just burn and destroy all", - he said.
According Shapoval, he can not give specific information about the dead and wounded.
"The numbers are not going to call that there was no panic," - said Shapoval.
According to him, the battalion camp completely destroyed, destroyed all the property and tents, personal belongings and all the equipment.
Shapoval not call this place stay fighters who remained alive, citing the secrecy. At the same time, he noted that the soldiers are in the area of ​​ATO.
He stressed that the purpose of this speech to the deputies - to bring information to their attention.
However, Shapoval urged deputies to create the 12th battalion base permanently stationed in Kiev, and also recalled the right of families of fighters to get land in the city and asked to consider this issue.
MP Alexander Bryhynets on his page on Facebook wrote: Today fire by "Hurricane" completely destroyed the base, where there were several divisions, including the location of the 12th battalion of territorial defense. Drones now fly over this location and make movies for Russian propaganda films. In reality a lot of military equipment was destroyed, but not the 12th Battalion. Commander of 12 Battalion about knows when to attack and can be currently found on almost the entire staff of the camp. The camp is destroyed, there are 2 dead, there are a few moderately wounded, but hundreds of soldiers are alive. I must admit tents were burned, some military equipment and personal belongings of the boys. Upon arrival in Kiev will begin to prepare the next column with everything you need for this battalion. "
Later Bryhynets added: "I'm on the spot, and I declare that the information spread by the media, including some officers in Kiev about the destruction of the 12th Battalion, is an absolute lie. Camp where the 12th battalion was based was destroyed, but the battalion was deployed elsewhere. Indeed, there were the sentries guarding the camp, among them seven wounded, three of them wounded, and four medium to light (one burn, one wounded in the stomach, once in the five wounds of the extremities without the threat of amputation), there are also two dead but only one of them for sure is a fighter of the 12th Battalion, the other person is not installed. Everybody wounded already given first emergency medical care at a local hospital. And now we with Dmitry Andrievskiy transports them to a specialized hospital. Unfortunately one was killed, the other killed - possibly a local, but all the other several hundred alive. Battalion lost all possessions and little technical means, but talk about that completely destroyed the soldiers and officers - disinformation, which aims to spread panic in Kiev. "
"I have just with my college Dmitry Andrievskiy, a medical service volunteer of the 12th Battalion transferred the wounded to Severodonetsk city hospital. This is not only seven men of the 12th Battalion, but several others wounded, who were taken away from the hospital in Noviaidar. Among wounded two or three qualify as moderately wounded, others have slightly wounded.
Once again I refute information about a large number of victims and injured after an overnight shelling by Russian forces systems "Smerch" 12th battalion of the Kiev territorial defense. We ask the media to refute the information about it, told by the officer of the battalion, who unlike us is not on the scene.
And again on the 12th Battalion: Battalion replaced the location, that is the place where the headquarters, place of residence and leisure fighters, their personal belongings, and did not retreat from the frontiers which he was entrusted to protect. As far as I know, now the 12th Battalion continued to hold all the items that are held yesterday. Therefore, night firing and changing the location of the base camp did not lead to the loss of military positions, "- concluded Bryhynets.
Note that from the territory of the Russian Federation regularly conducted fire by worldwide prohibited cluster munitions of multiple rocket launching systems "Hurricane" and "Smerch."
Disposition place battalion territorial defense "Kiev-12" was fired from the missile system "Smerch" the night before September 4.
In order Tsenzor.Net got pictures of burnt camp battalion in the October district of Lugansk region. They gave us one of the fighters division, who requested anonymity. Soldiers claim that during the shelling almost everything burned.
In the combat zone in eastern Ukraine on the night before September 4, died Zadoyanchuk Oleg, a Ukrainian journalist who collaborated with Russian service of Radio Liberty. He was mobilized on August 29 and spent only four days at the front of the undeclared war. Nearly his whole battalion was killed in Lugansk near the village Dmitrievka in Novoaydarovsk district as a result of artillery rocket fire by Russian "Smerch".
Correspondent of the Ukrainian state news agency "Ukrinform" Oleg Zadoyanchuk who was mobilized for military service, was killed near the village of Dmitrievka near Lugansk on the night before September 4 as a result of artillery strike on the camp of the Ukrainian military by separatist.
The journalist was mobilized for military service on 29 August and served in the 12th Territorial Defense Battalion from Kiev. He died at the age of 43 years. According to Radio Liberty as a result of fire on the night before September 4 almost all of his battalion was killed.
Zadoyanchuk had previously worked on TV "1+1", "New Channel", "City", "Channel 5", as well as in the Ukrainian news agency UNIAN. In addition, a journalist worked for a while with Radio Liberty.
He will be buried on September 8 at the Avenue of Heroes in the Lukianivsky cemetery in Kiev.

Direction?

On this video two Ukrainian solders are trying to claim the rocket came from Russia.

Not very convincing. The title of the video makes two grave errors: The rocket is a not a 220 mm BM-27 Uragan but a 300 mm BM-30 Smerch. It is not "unexploded", but the used rocket engine that separated from the warhead.

If we know the date and use the NOAA calculator we could find rhe direction from the shadows. It might also be possible to find the spot on the map deduct the directions. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:16, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Donetsk

Off-topic – Two videos from the same channel:

This is however not Dmytrivka, but the bus stop in Donetsk. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:23, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

The opposite view here: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Videos

As some commentators for this video say, it is not possible to say for sure when, where, by whom this video was made, and how it was obtained; no details about the "officer" provided (no informative response to such comments seen at this time). --Resup (talk) 13:58, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Ukraine@War published a copy:

I did not know that NAF ever had Tochkas or that any Tochka missile ever hit a Ukrainian target. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:40, 7 October 2016 (UTC)