Talk:Omran Daqneesh

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This is a talk page for discussing Omran Daqneesh. For sources, claims and narratives see the main page. (To see what is hot, see recent changes)

Starting Talk

Mahmoud made the photo
Omran made the news
Moved from White Helmets#Omran Daqneesh

Moon of Alabama runs a good pan of the world-shocking dusty boy Omran story as a fake scene. I'm about 50/50 on believing that, so it's well-worth considering, as well as the comments (as usual, a lot of good ones). ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:00, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I was about 50/50 convinced by that MoA investigation as well, but now I came across research by Lina Arabii (see description of the added picture), and suddenly I'm almost convinced that it is fakery. It's a small world in Aleppo "rebel" propaganda, see also the linked article by urs1798 who knows these guys better than their own mothers do. --CE (talk) 16:01, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm convinced that's the same guy, and it casts doubt on his sincerity when he says this other kid's injury moved him to tears... I'm still split about injury faking. But less than 50-50, after Petri made me wonder if this is the same kid already used in a double-posted picture fiasco. As Sputnik reported, the same image was used for two incidents in September, 2015. First posting, SNHR, Sept. 25. Similar haircut, implied passive demeanor, realistic but non-phasing injuries... Distance issues: Hama vs. Aleppo. No issue. Time: at almost a year apart, this matters. Would we say the 2015 kid appears younger? For ref, the biggest res photo I found yet of Omran, from CNN Arabic. Not sure, will look some more, and inviting other thoughts. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
The comparison image I'll call Hama girl (presented as a girl, and Omran as a boy, but visually either could be either) Looking closer, there's not much to go on. Omran has distinct ears, the Hama girl's could be the same or not, I can't tell. He's got a possibly distinct toe alignment, also can't say if the other does. What might be a mismatch is the Hama girl has a red spot on the sole of her/his right foot, implicitly a wound, but maybe an odd spot of fake blood. Omran has no sign of an injury there. All in all, I'm leaning to coincidence here, but I'm not sure either way. It would be a weird and stupid thing to do, but we've caught them doing that so many times, it's actually a plus for this possibility. "Yeah, they might do that, huh?" --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. The Sputnik article you linked is from September last year and talks about two usages of the same photo in incidents that obviously happened before then. Where is the connection to Omran? Who claims it is the same kid? Petri? --CE (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
No one claimed, but Petri wondered. It would be the same kid 11 months later up in Aleppo. Seemed worth mentioning and looking into, anyway. Good add on the front pages. He was some fad for a day or two. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:18, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

See "We Mustn't Turn Away" --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:12, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Good blog post, CL. The photo is released at a time when 'team USA' is in difficulty in Aleppo, while lots of other violence on civilians, including Ukraine, stay hidden from view. So it is a case of information warfare, as many point out., and watching the video leaves little doubt. Regarding what to do, apart from watching, nobody really have a clue, but still a lot depends on Russia-USA relations. Those two cannot win a war among themselves; but if in at least some agreement/good will can lead others. This is not at all the current state of affairs, though. Russia found its game and for now will stick to it. US needs to figure out what they are up to; it is no longer the Wild West days, but no sense of any coherent approach. Doctrine Obama, stir trouble, walk away, do nothing. /Send Kerry on a speed boat/. This round is about to end in November. Whether it was worth the Nobel prize, time will tell. --Resup (talk) 11:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! Sharp thoughts. The disaster is often blamed on Obama's lack of a clear policy or real committment, But by now, if not at first, they have to realize the effect of this. This is a regime-bleed campaign. They know they can't win (topple "Assad") all at once, but drag it out to cause as much injury as possible. Then later, with sanctions the whole time, they'll find a fresh reason to finish the kill, as was done with Iraq. It's a terrible thing to do to a nation, and not the kind of policy you publicly adopt. So they act like they're still the duped idealists, calling for peace and stuff, and still haven't figured out how to check on what the Saudis and Turks are doing, let alone starting to put a stop to it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:12, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Don't know why the cornerstone of policy should be toppling Assad. This is irrational, with no ideology, or non-conventional weapons, or at least conviction of own moral righteousness left. - As for Iran, there is danger, but it is getting stronger, not weaker, and is being pulled further into Russian embrace. --Resup (talk) 19:15, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Best guess for motive would be: crushing the "resistance axis," Baath-style Arab secularism, Russian-Iranian-Chinese-Eurasian influence, etc. In what order, who knows, opinions will differ, but these can be hit, all in general, with one discrete nation-de-building tool-set, applied across Syria and WTH, Iraq too, and Lebanon if they want some... (exactly where Shia and Sunnis live in even enough numbers to really fight each other: won't work in Iran) It's power politics, not not morality, which is why the attempts to make it seems moral have to breed and die like flies. Whatever, it just has to happen... Arab Spring, mumble mumble, killing his people blah blah... --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

M. Raslan

To clarify: Mahmoud Rslan presumably is the same as Mohammed Raslan Abu Sheikh. Mahmoud/Mohammed conflation is easy - Not certain if Abu Sheikh is a nom d'guerre or a family name, if Raslan is a middle or family name. (background details) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

He's called Mahmoud in his media appearances and calls himself Mahmoud on facebook, so that's what he should be called, not something that is "presumably" the same. Unhelpful confusion. --CE (talk) 14:35, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
I had started from the Reuters report that got it wrong, and wasn't sure which was wrong. (wondered if maybe the reporter heard it pronounced right, while the typing in English was goofed up). But if he's clear on Mahmoud, then that's it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:33, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

The blue shirt: was it supposed to suggest escaped mental patient, or is that a coincidence, or just an illusion on my end?--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Raslan Statement

His statement after the story broke:

Mahmoud Rislan statement.jpg

The main relevant suggestion is: if he knew those guys were seen beheading a child, he would not have shot a selfie with them. He didn't know who they were. More than likely his original Facebook message as seen here won't prove that wrong. But if we stumble upon a translation/the original link if available, might be good to check for good measure. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Secondary points: He blames "the complexities of living and working in a war zone," in which one will frequently bump into decapitators in total innocence. He doesn't directly try to absolve or praise the killers, but interestingly, he thinks it was only one guy, not two, involved in the beheading. And of all the suggested ages for Abdullah, he picked the highest - 19 - which lessens the gravity of the crime by a bit. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:42, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
The long-haired guy on the very left btw looks very much like the guy who upholds Abdullah's decapitated head on the back of the truck (and sits right left to him in the pre-decapitating posing, barely seen in the photo in the composite). Which makes it three of "the any specific fighting group", all wearing the same blue headbands our friend Mahmoud wears. Oops. *eyerollemoticon* --CE (talk) 13:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I thought the same, and another picture shows all five guys together, apparently the main guys of the brigade, and they hang out together a lot. Likely the actual beheader is there as well, and Mahmoud is in costume with them ... still doesn't prove he knows who they are, aside from rebels he thinks are neat. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Initial Post

Mahmoud Rslan August 5.png

Facebook Post, August 5:

عندما تشاهد القادة في الصف الأول فعلم ان النصر آت بإذن الله
من حلب المحاصرة وفي داخلها كلهن مشحورين

(Auto-translate: Leaders in the first row/grade (on the front line? of the best kind?) know victory is coming, God willing, from Aleppo besieged and within all of them Mahuren (?) )

This itself doesn't show if he does or doesn't know who that is. However, comments should have been a quick tip off. ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Posted Aug. 5, 2:08 pm (California time - will be 12:08 AM Aug. 6 in Syria). First comments and replies, in Arabic then (auto translated, to improve)

2:12 pm: مين مشحورك ولاك - (Secretary not ḩwrk and Cadillac)

(alt: who participant and not (if last is a typo) or maybe "who's in the picture?") --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

MR reply:أنا أولهن ههههه - (I am the first to hehehe)

(first to ... see how these guys are out fighting and not in jail?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

ابوس شحواركم انا - (I kiss your dialogue. I'm alone.)

MR reply: احرار الشام شحوروني ههههه - (Free Sham Shaharouni (ph) hehehe)

شحوروني = rare word, meaning unclear

MR reply أنا أولهن ههههه - (I am the first to hehehe)

فهمناااا وجع - Understand us! Ache

MR: كان معلق النت ونزلو اكتر من مرة - (He was hanging from the internet and download it more than once)

2:16 pm: لك بوسلي ابو محمد بارود أمانة - (You Bosley Abo Mohamed Gunpowder Secretariat)

MR تكرم - (Honoring)

Skipping a few, others say god bless you all, "What is this abu al-Sheikh is lightened became an Indian lol", etc. and get replies.

2:39 pm: الله يحميك يارب وينصركن على الطغين - (God bless you oh lord and so that the kidnappers)

(no MR reply)

Aug. 6 1:49 am صاير مشحور - (European became oily)

(no reply)

Aug. 6 5:04 am عمر سلخو عطول بالمقدمة الله يحميكن - (Omar Slkhw always up front. God protect you)

The name in Arabic: "عمر سلخو" - Google image search that suggests he's the smaller guy on the left. So within a day people were making sure he could realize who that is.

(no reply - ten days with no comments)

Aug. 16 7:50 am الله ينصركن - (God make you win)

(no reply, three days with no comments)

Aug. 19 Костовски Горан: Are you gonna cut off the head of the boy you found in the rubble yesterday if it does not spark world outrage and no truce with Russia and SAA will occur because of the CNN propaganda?

(no reply, 15 likes, many more comments in this vein) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:08, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Killers on the Loose

One thing this photo shows, either way, is that these documented murderers were armed and at liberty among the public on August 5. When the beheading story first made news, their "movement" press office issued two statements on July 19, English versions at [132449/13/] and elsewhere. The first a rough version, unclear about arrests, while the other is basically an improved version of the same, claiming the suspects were now in detention.

The first says they formed "a judicial commission to investigate what has been published..." "it was brought and stopped all persons who have violated and handed over to the commission, in order to investigate them according to the private legal standards." But even before the investigation, they know where the primary built for the beheading lays. "Nour Al Din Zenky Movement put full responsibility on the international community through its silence about the crimes being committed by the regime forces ... also full siege to the city of Aleppo librated, which reflected negatively on the psychological state of the people trapped."

The second clarifies they denounce the crime seen on the video, which shows "individual errors," and not ones they Condone, as they abide by all international treaties. So, "all individuals who undertook the violation have been detained and turned over to the committee for investigations..." It repeats the same part about blaming the world.

"Nour al-din al-Zenki leaders claim to have arrested those involved in the killing and vow they will face a judicial process." (Chulov, Guardian, July 20)

But here they are two weeks later, Omar Salkhu, and his larger friend Mohammed Maruf, "the two #Aleppo commanders of al-Zenki." (Gissur Simonarson, Aug. 8), in the "first grade" of the latest battle for Aleppo. Were they ever detained? Set free after answering some questions? Set free just for this important battle, and going back in the brig afterwards? --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:10, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Zenki Beheading Executioner ontheloose.png

And as mentioned above, the long-haired thing behind Omar (name unknown) is quite likely the actual beheader, also roaming at liberty. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

No, not the actual beheader, but the scumbag who fixates the boy while the act is perpetrated and then holds up his head. You got it kinda right in your comment above. --CE (talk) 23:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I still never did watch the video, but went and checked. You could be right, but coincidentally, I think I was. This still could look like the other guy is doing the cut, but no one is yet. Here the longhair is cutting while the other guy stands aside (sort-of obscured). As seen above, he then holds the head and the knife. This image shows a group shot perhaps including him, but not the others. Whoever made this matched it to a Facebook profile. The name seems to be مـتـيــن أبو أحمد which I transliterate Matin Abu Ahmed - no clear-matching FB profile (one comes up, has a baby picture since August 17, so maybe little Ahmed, to show how he loves children...)--Caustic Logic (talk) 08:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I also didn't watch the video and was indeed "extrapolating" from the or a similar still. What a gang of creeps. Thanks for the correction and additional research. btw, Thierry Meyssan in his tested way claims at the end of a quite interesting article that it was Mahmoud himself who did the beheading. --CE (talk) 14:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Oh man, that's mixed up. Thierry thought Mahmoud was one of the fighters, maybe the one (that might be) Matin. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:21, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
The Facebook link and name might be a mix-up too. That seems to be an Arabic alternate page for a guy named Matin, who seems to be a Turkish citizen that looks nothing like this, but has a baby son named Ahmed who looks like the same baby, posting a fresh photo Aug. 17. He claims he just started a new job, and college, and got married in recent weeks, all in Turkey. I saw no sign of going to or caring about Sryia, though he's a staunch Erdogan supporter who thinks the EU are terrorists and the US is evil and was behind the coup. Either this alternate stuff is all swapped in on the terrorist's page, or Turkish Matin had that terrorist's picture for his avatar, or there were two pages and the one is gone now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
There are 2 al-Zenki videos with the kid, almasdarnews, before beheading, with translation, and the other one, linked in there. --Resup (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Resup. In case I go to watch or save it, I'll start there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Here's Mr. Raslan filming and allahuakbarking with a horde of what must be "moderate rebels" in his creepy selfie style that some suspected to be photoshopped... tweeted by Syricide October 30, 2016. --CE (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

He's now in some makeshift camp in the snowy desert, whining. --CE (talk) 10:17, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Dakneesh Family

I found the above CNN Arabic image with what seems to be his Arabic name ( عمران دقنيش ). I could have just copied it from an article, but tried to find it in the VDC records. Omran was easy, but I had no luck with Daqneesh using English (transliterated, a few ways). So I assembled the last name from a Dakno family with dead in Douma, and Hamish. Seems to be correct, and the same spelling used in news stories. FWIW even searching with Arabic, VDC shows no one of this family name has died yet. A google search for Mohammed Daqnish yields mostly just stories about Omran. It almost seems like a made-up name, but I suspect it's real and just rare. A Mohammed Daqnish appears somewhere on an Aleppo University Facebook page, at least (didn't find where, doesn't matter). --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Abu Ali

Why the pseudonym? This is the supposed father of this family, "Abu Ali," last name not given but implicitly Daqneesh. Raf Sanchez reports (Teleraph)that he "asked to be identified only by his nickname for fear that the Assad regime will seek revenge on a family that has become an unwitting symbol of the Syrian government’s violence against its own people." Okay, so at the risk of getting them killed... Unless the names are made up, he'll be named Dashniq - a name so rare, the VDC didn't list a single one dying the war until Ali (Arabic search, currently one result). He'll be the Dashneeq who had 5 kids aged and 10 and under, 2 girls and 3 boys, two named Ali and Omran, living in the Karam Qaterji distict of Aleppo. Sanchez was told they had lived in the house on the left in a provided photo (Telegraph, second report).

Talk about mixed signals. There can only be one family fitting that profile, and only one father of it. Logically, we could presume at least some of the provided details - family name(s), personal names, house location, even the district, might be altered to protect these poor kids. Maybe even the parallel reality it happened in was fudged to make it seem like it was in ours. Maybe the family and the bombing were made up entirely, to protect them and all Syrians, hopefully with a no fly zone.--Caustic Logic (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

2017: Sanchez described Abu Ali as "burly." Only visual clue. Now he's seen and reported on the father Mohammad, claiming his interviews could be coerced. What he doesn't mention is if it's the same father he heard from last year, and apparently saw. Mohammad doesn't look "burly" to me. I asked him on Twitter if it's the same guy. I suspect it isn't, but hoping to hear a response. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:52, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Big Brother Ali

Later, as Omran's newly-noticed brother appeared in reports, he also appeared in the VDC database. Ali Dakneesh ( دقنيش ) age 10, with the photo otherwise attributed (in which he does look dead, from injuries somewhere else) killed by "Syrian government and affiliated militias" and from area Karam Qaterji (just east of center - here on Wikimapia) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:13, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Hm... this latest from B at Moon of Alabama - fascinating correlation work. First, the Telegraph's Raf Sanchez reported:

Abu Ali, the father of the house, sat on a sofa with his young son Omran beside him. Another son and two daughters were in the first floor flat while their oldest boy, Ali, was out on the street with friends.

(5 kids total - Omran, Ali, another brother, 2 sisters)

Contrary to the reports of the Aleppo doctors who treated Omran, the little boy is only three years old and not five. Omran has been released from the hospital along with his four siblings and all the children are quietly recovering, his father said.

Then they report:

It emerged Saturday that Omran Daqneesh’s older brother Ali had succumbed to injuries suffered in the same airstrike that propelled his sibling onto television screens across the planet.
Ali, 10, was out on the street when a Russian or Syrian regime bomb fell on his family’s building in Aleppo’s Qaterji neighbourhood on Wednesday.
While the rest of his family suffered minor injuries as their flat collapsed around them, Ali appears to have been more fully exposed to the bomb blast and died in hospital.

So... B suspects an "add-on fake," but if so, it was set up to be added in advance. Ali is built into the story, out in the street, ready to explain his having no house-collapse dust on him - the eldest status, outside status, and reflection in the father's name (Abu = father of) - everything but being dead was there. It seems like that was decided on later, in some bad planning. But they could also argue that Abu Ali just couldn't say it at first, and reported that everyone lived, or mumbeld something that was read that way. But it stands out. As Sanchez marveled, "... one son emerged from the rubble almost unscathed and instantly became a global symbol. The other son died quietly in hospital completely unknown to the world." Well isn't that a handy plot device? Why was he unknown? Beause our source went ahead and told us about him and implicitly said he was fine. Then the story apparently changed.

"Omran became the 'global symbol of Aleppo's suffering' but to most people he is just that - a symbol," wrote Kenan Rahmani, a Syrian activist. "Ali is the reality: that no story in Syria has a happy ending."

Yeah, see? That's what I mean. It's like these airstrikes are capable of creating these handy morality plays, even down to coincidental delays in reporting sons, to allow for deeper emotional involvement, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:06, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

On the video, we see 3 children, two adults. Mother is on the stretcher, the rest seem sort of fine. FWIW. --Resup (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Hm, didn't watch the video. Just 3 other kids shown, plus below just 3 mentioned, suggests 'four others' recovered was the outside claim, and maybe Ali was set to be dead from the start. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this boy Omran or Ali? Same shirt as Omran, but looks like a cheek wound, or may be not. -"Omran and three other children were taken to the M10 hospital for treatment". No story/fuss; I guess it's supposed to be Omran at the hospital Daily Mail, 19 August 2016. --Resup (talk) 12:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Must be Omran, and he's a bit more injured than it seemed. The two kids look very different, so f=different thy don't seem to me like brothers. FWIW. (not a lot) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Comparing images, there can be little doubt. Under the soot is a darker spot on his cheek, in the same spot. Even clearer is a small wound to the upper lip visible in both views. Also, his face to me looks abnormally chubby, or swollen actually, probably from the facial trauma. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Follow up

Online petition addressed to Obama and Merkel started by Dr. Hamza Al Khatib and mass media --Resup (talk) 11:29, 23 August 2016 (UTC)