Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Clashes

Locations

Just to record some of the places mentioned, here they are shown on google map--Resup (talk) 03:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

For an on-screen basic reference, the inset map I made, clashes not labeled, but the three main incident/areas are covered in order below. And first, Petri's original location notes/links: --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Satellite image showing locations of clashes. The park to the left and the first clash bottom left can be seen in the UStream video described below. The top-left corner of the image is here on Wikimapia. The Trade Union Building is around 1.5 km SSE from there.

Timeline

Does Ukraine observe DST? All MH17 calculations presumed so, but ... Time and Date.com says Ukraine abolished standard time and opted to stay in permanent savings (summer) time in 2011, by vote of parliament. "Clocks in Ukraine were turned one hour ahead for the last time on Sunday, March 27, 2011," it says. Huh. Apparently was a Party of Regions move in consort with Russia (now switching back?) and Belarus. Kiev would presumably have changed this back to be more "European," but it's not refected at that page. Will continue to act as if. It's said Trade Union hall incursion was around 8 PM, and that's about sunset - using DST on, the NOAA solar calculator says sunset is about 8:00 that day in Odessa, instead of 7. Other thoughts? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Belated note: Summer time would be the same either way, so don't know what I was worried about. However, some of the timeline issues we (or I) ran into studying the Kiev snipers in February might be from this issue I didn't know about then. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia Odessa clashes page:

A game scheduled in Odessa at 15:00 ... about 300 (pro-federalist) people gathered hours earlier -
Pre-rally at 14:00
first shooting around 13:40 ^[1] --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Considering the video timing below, these times might all be in GMT, 2 or maybe 3 hours behind local times I'd rather work with (sunset at 8PM base time - outting the rally at 4 PM) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

4:18-4:26: approximate time by shadows at the 10-minute point in the 20-minute Ustream video of the Unity rally and first clashes (azimuth estimate at 9:45 and 13:00 marks both about 251-253 degrees, elevation about 40 degrees? NOAA solar calculator (GMT +2, DST on) says that will be about 4:18-4:26PM. This would put the video's start amidst the rally around 4:10 PM, suggesting the game isn't until 1700 local, not 1500 (at least as I'm measuring here). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

5:05 PM: 7-minute clash video - on Zhukova lane by the stadium (?) I paused it at 1:26 to consider the man at upper left's shadow relative to the pavement edge here, for a solar azimuth of about 261 degrees (nearly west) Approximate shadow length vs. height gives a solar altitude - an oddly low 30 degrees or so. Can those coexist at a single time? Yes. NOAA says 5:05 PM (17:05) is a great fit: az 260.96, El 29.85

So this is some time into things, halfway between first clashes and the sunset massacre. But still, just around the corner from the first events. Hm. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

UNHRC: "...between 6.00 – 6.30 p.m., (federalists) decided to take refuge in the nearby Trade Union Building." ^[2]
7:31 - first emergency call, fire in tent camp ^[3]
UNHRC: "At 7.43 p.m., the HRMMU called the fire brigade..." ^[2]
UNHRC: "At around 8.00 p.m., the “Pro-Unity” activists entered the Trade Union Building" ^[2] (apparently earlier...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC))
8:07 PM - sunset (per NOAA solar calc, GMT +2, DST on)
8:09 PM: fire crews arrive, further delayed by the mob ^[3]

May 2 Group Timeline

2 May Group & Dumskaya have detailed timing (They are not assumed to be a trusted sources, due to some evidence of wash-out already, but anyway, even with that, no evidence whatsoever that Bozman shot anybody). According to their schedule,

16.21 Andrey B. was shot and killed by 5.45 bullet (consistent with AK 74). Shooting is said to happen at Zhukova pereulok(=drive), here on the map. He is said to be moved to Deribasovskaya and Preobrazhenskaya intersection.

16.27 Police cordon is first formed on Zhukova and Deribasovskaia intersection

Some few minutes after that, Bozman does his media appearance, which May 2 group presents as

Из-за милицейской шеренги “Боцман” неоднократно стреляет одиночными из автомата АКС-74У или карабина на его основе в сторону атакующих. Это их не останавливает: при выстрелах “ультрас” отбегают, затем атакуют снова.

from behind police cordon, Bozman makes repeated single shots from AK 74U or a carabine based on it (aka Saiga), in the direction of the attackers. That does not stop them: at the sound of shots, "ultras" run away a bit, and than continue their attack

Fucktaky Mushrooms! That strikeball--of-paintballer Bozman !

--Resup (talk) 01:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Fucktaky, lol. Had to think about that for a moment... Agreed this is leading - we can see it's not AK or replica - it's apparently a replica, and no one runs from it after shots their way. Duh? ... I forgot about this poor timeline section ... I hadn't looked close at the group's timeline. Very detailed in spots, missing in others. It ends at 7:24 PM, with the arrests at Afina center. It says negotiation began only at 7:10, with Maidan Self-Defense helping police surround the building. Everyone agrees the Maidan rally, some part of it, was down at Kulikovo by 7:30 after some walk. I'm pretty confident in my solar timing of the first arrival around 7:12, and an early incident as the first tents were burned at about 7:16. Was there really that much overlap, with things at Afina still not settled when the next assault began? Also, I wondered why their timeline stops about where that assault started, and how early they place it (probably with mob arriving at 7:24, when latecomer S. Dibrov finally got there...) But this is part 1. I'll look for part 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

My search on the site and the Internet suggests they never did publish a part 2 - only the halfof the day where "they started it" was worth documenting in such detail ...

Some critiques:

17:55. Colonel (Fuchedji) gets a slight wound in the hand. The doctor of the ambulance insisted on the evacuation of (Fuchedji) together with other victims. Among other things, in the same Parking g/n 150-OK going to GKB №11, 17:57 from the event goes “Botsman”. The fate of the weapon from which a shot, is not clear.

Leading. The injury looks more than slight, seems to the right forearm, not hand. and Fuchedji says that, matching video. That preferable witness says he was shot 20 minutes before that ambulance incident, while Dumskaya sets the time 5:55 by deciding the shot was just before the scene, as captured some seconds into a 5:56 video. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Clashing Parties

Militant actors, listed in order of "who started it" (as understood - may change)

#Red Armband Contingent (clearly anti-Maidan by appearance - likely flase-flag provocateurs)
Unity Rally (includes all who were in and moved with it - reportedly attacked by the above and fought back)
Other Anti-Maidan (at the site of earlier clashes, and at the Kulikovo field camp and later inside the Trade Union hall, but not apparently on its roof - presumably legitimate unless they show contrary signs, like the red-armband guys do)
Kulikovo Attack Mob (anyone who stayed with the same march as it went almost 2 km off course to attack people only maybe connected to the earlier clashes should be considered a different group by then with a different flavor and mission) --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:13, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Артем Давидченко claims

Published 21.5. Артем Давидченко claims:

"Yes, Bozman was there. He was a member of mobile detachment of druzhina (paramilitary volunteers), and we knew each other from the beginning of protests on Kulikovo. He could not possibly kill anyone, as he came with a straikball (pneumatic) weapon, which resembled Kalashnikov. He never even had a real one. Bozman is alive and is outside of Odessa.

Bozman claim is significant. He is so far the only well-seen person who appears to do shooting. If his gun is straikball/replica, then we do NOT see real gunmen on video. Some support to this assertion is offered by physical shape of Bozman. It looks like he has not visited gym for ages, and is not in a very good physical shape. A serious player will not put much trust into this one guy. He is also believed to be local, and with no other record of being radical, which does not match a gunman profile either. He is not supposed to have a real weapon, only replicas are OK; and no reason or explanation how and why he would get a real gun. --Resup (talk) 16:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Gunmen. Our sources in SBU and police, trusted guys, told us later that there were snipers on the roof of nearby buildings. We have even seen 3 buses with SBU; but those were in civilian clothes.
Kulikovo. "When the attack on the front door started, I was on the first flor. I had exited through the side exit in the right wing: we run to get fire extinguishers and body armor vests. Interestingly, there was no water in the water hydrants at all, and some of the offices on the first floor was open, with all computer/IT equipment of value removed. When we were near a car, a Mazda with some "Chernomorets" paraphernalia. We were shot at with Saiga (hunting version of AKM), and I was grazed by a bullet. Now I am in the Eastern Ukraine"

A supporter of Anton (Artem's brother) Davidchenko Anokhin, himself a Kulikovo activist, was arrested by SBU on 21.10.

--Resup (talk) 23:13, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Red Armband Contingent

This shady-looking group is almost universally attributed, by people on each side of the issue, to the other side (see below, some "pro-Russian" people think these were their guys. The anti-Maidan sources call these Right Sector or similar, often noting that they're trying to appear "pro-Russian." Oriental Review report speaks of and shows "unidentified masked gunmen wearing St. George ribbons (symbol of antifascist resistance to Kievan junta!!!) and red arm-bands," and is pretty clear that they're more likely to be pro-Kiev extremists in disguise and acting as provocateurs. ^[4] Meanwhile, Western mainstream and pro-Kiev reports describe these same instigators simply as the "pro-Russian" militants who, it seems, brandished the first guns, drew the first blood, and sparked all the ensuing violence (which it seems was very prone to combustion and extended burning). And, as the other side notices, they visually seem to be the greatest beneficiaries of early police inaction. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Consider this "Napaki" photo of a motley line-up in this camp (cropped a bit here from the usual view to give more face-space). Is it just this shot that makes them look so comical, more like they showed up to parody someone else than to be themselves? (It's no coincidence that's why I picked this shot to start with). Those silver shields clustered in front of them shields will be a couple dozen crouching policemen, although you can't tell from this angle. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The 7:00 clash video shows the same scene from above; this seems to be on north-running Zhukova lane where these militants and police are somehow in one group, being pelted and pushed back by others. Several red armbands, esp. early in the video, among those making barricades, and the fat rifleman in the photo above, at least, appears later, around 6:00 in. The scene is described more, with a view, below. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:45, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Another video shows Right Sector shooting at the Trade Union Hall victims (per Washington's Blog and the video uploader anyway) However, it looks too early in the day to be the main event - mid-late PM, location unclear. And this is the murkier but crucial red armbands crew: the fat rifleman is the main shooter. These might be Right Sector people, but it's not known that they are, the finer details of their outfits suggest otherwise, and they're widely called otherwise. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Sergei Dolzhenkov

"Meeting (long meeting Fuchedji had to attend) was over at 14.30"...

"As became clear afterwards, S.A. Dolzhenkov called P.S. Lutsiuk cell phone, demanding information on plan "Castle" (plan of guarding the building of Main Administration of Ministry of Internal Affairs, Odessa region) aimed at capturing the building and taking possession of firearms. Demand being rejected, (Dolzhenkon) decided to seize Kalashnikov guns at the Odessa Institute of Internal Affairs, where about 500 Kalashnikovs were kept, guarded by 2 cadets. " --Resup (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting story. They say there was no seizure though, and this second plan was also foiled when the guns there were re-located. Giogle trans of the part right after: "These machines are law enforcement officers seized and transported to the police Department, eliminating the possibility of seizing weapons." I had the impression this plotter was on the Maidan side, but now I'm not sure. Also, what kind of plot is this? "Hey, chief of police, tell me how to break into your armory. No? Oh I'm mad now. Gonna shoot you, if I can get into that armory..." Huh? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed the following up text says that cops secured those weapons. And 500 guns was not needed in any case. This is still some curious detail likely indicating that few real weapons were seized (or used during transfer, than placed back in storage, etc).

It should be quite impossible to hide that there was a phone call, so it is admitted. But one can try to say that yes there was a call, but sort of nothing happened. I do not know who Dolzhenkov is; I am pretty sure it was him who is said to place a call. Whichever side he is, this was likely used to facilitate using weapons under cover. --Resup (talk) 01:09, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Mix-up above? I have "Suzuka PS called Dolzhenkov S.A.," and see that's the order but Suzuka must be Lustsyuk (Луцюка = L-U-??-K-extra a), So, it must just be a backwards order thing; your version makes more sense. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I see some reports listing Dolzhenkov on pro-Russian side; I do not know is it true; he can also be embedded there in advance; I do not know anything about him. He does not seem to be acting in the interests of pro-Russian side, that seems clear. --Resup (talk) 01:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Sergei Dolzhenkov? (with Fuchedji)

Dolzhenkov said to be a discharged cop. As I recall, there was something about a fired cop in one of Fuchedji interviews, he met such a character on his way to the events. --Resup (talk) 02:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed.

(this is what happened prior to F and D meeting, according to F 1 TV (Russia) interview starting at 3:35 time-stamp: When F left his long meeting, "around 800 Maidan, and 200 -300 from Kulikovo Field, gathered near "памятника погибшим" ("memorial to those who died"). First provocation started in a yard, Babel 2 (Бабел(я) 2 ) or Babel 4 street. Right sector started to shoot from traumatic weapons. The crowd rushed there, and it was stopped ("cut off" he says), and reinforcement,from the regional branch, was brought in. While the main crowd marched towards Greek Square. I exit "from the front", and in front of me I see Dolzhenkov walking."--Resup (talk) 02:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

From my translation of the German translation of the September interview, at the beginning when he arrived downtown:

I'm in the front, at the Front, at the Front is also Dolschenkow, his nickname “captain cocoa”. This is Dolschenkow Sergei, a former police officer, he was fired, he had a Balaclava on, a mask,

... and he was leading the crowd, leading it forward. I addressed him, as I was walking with him side by side, and I said, don't do it (=you should not do it, said softly), you will not be able to stop the crowd. But he said, it is too late already. (They passed some police cordon than;F explains that police is demoralized after Maidan) --Resup (talk) 02:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

and he drove the crowd to the front. So I'm still went to him, and ran next to him and (had some dialog that didn't come through well about demoralized police and it being too late for something).

This is likely the guy F was photographed next to. Huh. On their side, 500 rifles used defensively could have deterred the massacre. A certain logic to that, but could also be a fake story to make the "pro-Russians" look more dangerous. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

... Above, Resup says " He does not seem to be acting in the interests of pro-Russian side, that seems clear.." I have two thoughts on that, one my own, another probably more informed. - Genuine anti-Kiev: Seizing weapons might seem the only way to secure an even mostly-peaceful secession movement. Note it was decided only once the math was suddenly shifted with the Maidan mobs brought in for that reason.

it does not look that way, it was peaceful, than some clashes with football fans started; no need for even 1 Kalashnikov at this point. Only when some real guns (likely Kalashnikovs, --as some other guns seen are traumatics) were used, it may occur to somebody, hey, can I have it too? ... --Resup (talk) 02:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

- Some sort of impostor/sabotage/provocation motive: There's the overall behavior of his clicque (especially including the one identified as "Botsman"), the alarming, obvious, sloppy grab at the guns, and, the next source and its allegations. --Caustic Logic (talk)

For slaughter may 2 in Odessa is Edward Hurwitz? May 12, 2014:

But the most interesting fact that, according to available information, with the Hurwicz connected and one of the organizers of the attack "Antimiani" supporters "of Euromayday" on the Cathedral square. According to activists of the Kulikovo field, the main organizer of the campaign was one of the leaders of the so-called "Odessa squads", someone Sergey Dolzhenkov, already delayed the SBU.

According to information activists, it is Sergey Dolzhenkov commanded the main squad of the Pro-Russian activists on may 2, and it is this detachment was the instigator of mass collision in the center of Odessa. In turn, after the collision angered by the deaths of their comrades supporters "Euromayday" went on Kulikovo field, where clashes have killed about 30 people.

Sergey Dolzhenkov is a brother Oleg programming courses, which at one time occupied the post of head of the Department of international relations, European integration and relations of Odessa Diaspora in the municipality of Odessa during the reign of Edward Hurwitz. Sergey Dolzhenkov, according to information activists "Antimiani and local media, maintained relationships with the election headquarters of Edward Hurwitz.

Activists stress that may 2 Dolzhenkov led activists in the fight, despite numerous warnings and outright bans of other leaders of the Odessa team", including "senior officer". At Odessa "Antimaidan" directly accused programming courses in, quote, "the provocation for the money Hurwitz". ^[5]

--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:15, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Mark Gordienko, automaidan activist informs that an appeals court may set Dolzhenkov free, and calls for a demonstration in front of the appeals court building in Kiev to prevent this. --Resup (talk) 05:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Gordienko ... he's been discussed here as a perp himself, lumped with Mykola V. He's the main Maidan source for Julia Polkhiva's report (part 2 anyway), and she extends him at least as much credibility as he deserves, probably more. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Dolzhenkov, under arrest, is reportedly moved from Kiev to Odessa --Resup (talk) 18:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Dolzhenkov gives a weird interview to Dumskaya, not trustworthy interview to untrustworthy source. According to Dumskaya, denies being on Greek Street or leading others there, denies knowing Botsman in person but tries to argue that he had a gun (based on photos). Gives some names of Kulikovo organizers and their roles. Cannot say anything about firearms. For some reason is asked about 'colonel Yakimenko' from 'the union of soviet officers, and whether he coordinated with him--this is the same last name as SBU ex-chief, accused in Maidan events, and on the run in Russia--but unclear is it about the same person.--Resup (talk) 04:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC) Dolzhenkov answers that only met him in Odessa prison during investigative procedures. (Not sure what's going on here). --Resup (talk) 04:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

And Botsman

The same source implicating Dolzhenkov as a Hurwitz crony also tackles the heavyset guy in photo above. The connection is a bit roundabout, but hints at how a more direct link might be sown:

In addition, some data indicate that indirect relation to Edward Hurwitz has another "hero" of events may 2 - Vitaly Cudeco ( Виталий Чудько - elsewhere Vitaly Budko - best sound is Chudeko) nicknamed "Boatswain" ("a pro-federalist known as ‘Botsman’"), made famous by the video, which is well visible, as he leads the activists of "Euromayday" fire a weapon resembling a Kalashnikov (AKSU). Activists Kulikov field claim that "Boatswain" was representative of that part of "Antimaidani", which is associated with the so-called "Orthodox community of Odessa, the organization headed by the controversial social activist Valerii Kaurov go. The latter, known for having declared himself "President of the Odessa Republic" that Odessa "Antimaidan" called provocation... in favor of Edward Hurwitz. ^[5] --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:19, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

A video with Botzman (which claim to show his photo as well). However, there is contradictory information on whether he is 'Виталий Будько' (as Mikola was said to be Vitaliy Budko as well). There is also contradictory information what happened to him (arrested, released, killed, all of the above). Claim that Botzman is released and alive is attributed to new police chief Ivan Katerinchuk (but this may a story to implicate Fuchedji). Contradictory stories are attributed to Lyashko (Radical Party politician) --Resup (talk) 12:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Good start sorting this one out so far. Mykola was said to be Vitaly Budko? That's new. The second link covers that - straight up Mykola Volkov story (a "centurion" seen shooting supp. at people in windows, with the ambiguity over his fate), but with this name attached, clearly spelled out with a "Б." The name given by the last non-confused source (?) is Чудько and should be Chudeko, for one thing, so maybe there's some confusion (or the article gave the wrong name). But hm ... Mykola and Vitaly ... the two guys as seen on May 2 have similar builds and awkward, shuffling gait like they've both had a groin injury ... one wears a mask, and I'm not sure if we can say Mykola was somewhere else and not there playing Vitaly... he was placing the phony call near Afina center somewhere in this time-frame in his usual guise ,,. but Vitaly apparently escaped arrest in these early clashes, which was at Afina, and was not seen at, killed at, or arrested at the TU Hall. Is that because he changed back into his ATO outfit for that scene? And where did the real guy go and when and why never say anything about the impostor? Eh ... on balance, no great reason to suspect that, it just popped up as I considered them mixed up together like this. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Video does not seem to show sound or recoil strength expected of real Kalashnikov. There is a claim that this is strike-ball (pneumatic) replica. Nothing really from what we see seem to contradict such version

Kalashnikov shooting video for comparison. Note that spent cartridge is thrown to the right; but I do not see that on Bozman video. Bozman is a fat guy, but still I would expect lower, stronger sound and more recoil. Here is a strikeball gun, one of likely many out there (this one has 130 balls in magazine and so needs infrequent recharging). Also I note a little cloud on exit; similar thing seem to happen with CO2 powered BB guns. Former USSR use 'strikeball' word, in the West it is either BB or Airsoft. In this case, it appears to be BB (airsoft will be too soft). --Resup (talk) 16:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Just watching that video, I had the same impression. I'm no expert, but it seems to be pretty weak little pop going off when he fires it. It's probably a fake gun. It leaves him (and pistol guy by him and whoever) in the spotlight when rooftop snipers and at least one Maidan guy with a hunting rifle then opened up. The spotlight's fake, averyone knows of the snipers - but they wore the same red armband as him anyway, so ... it was a poor choice for Chudeko/Botsman to brandish a real-looking fake gun at that time. Logically, it could be an honestly taken bad choice, or a conscious part of the provocation and demonization it fed into. In favor of the latter is how he seems to be trying, twice, to be seen letting Lt. Fuchedji (his pal and conspirator, of course) into the ambulance with him (which F. twice denies). So nothing certain, but two reasons to question the guy. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:22, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

He may be not a willing conspirator. He is not young, and an Odessian; so he would be raised in USSR, and would have no obvious reason to be evil. If he is a known strikeballer, it may be the only piece of equipment which he knew well how to use, and easily available to him. But indeed he appears to be featured as a leading character, as a part of a small, rather cozy, and well placed group, in those recordings. So it is conceivable that those strategic placements and/or recordings are deliberate, even if he himself is not (I do not really remember background of those recordings, it could be accidental that he is picked by this particular video operator, but just very convenient to use later. ) Creating 'correct' audio-visual impact would be a major part of the overall plot to justify bringing down the tent camp, and so it may be a part of such pre-planned scenery. Overall I am under impression that manipulators invest heavily in audio-visual component, there are many examples already. --Resup (talk) 12:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

As an illustration of the point, here is a staged scenery featuring Lyashko. He is under (unrelated to Odessa) terrorist fire right when giving an ATO interview on camera. No, he is TWICE on fire, we got take 1 and take 2. --Resup (talk) 13:17, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Somebody with AKM (or Saiga)

Somebody else with either AKM or Saiga (hunting version) Trassa E95 at 13:40 --Resup (talk) 14:02, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Real Borotba Members?

My own impression of these red-armband and allied thugs is of comical impersonators trucked in just to work up the mob. That said, there were at the time genuine anti-Maidan self-defense forces who look a bit like these guys. (details could be useful here...) and these should be expected to show up for such an event. Simply blocking a peaceful "pro-Unity" march doesn't sound like a very good PR move, but of course they'd be focused on the militant-ready right-wingers the rally had in its midst. It's just how they behave, the timing, the predictable effect it had, and how they apparently dragged all the effects so tragically to the peaceful center of Odessa's pro-Federalist movement and got it mass-murdered (see especially below). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

At least one presumably genuine anti-Junta source is on record vouching for at least some of the guys involved in the clashes (and sniper shootings, and hiding behind police, and provoking the mob into the Trade Union Hall? One hopes not...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Alexey Albu, leader of anti-fascist ‘Borotba’ Odessa, who was severely injured in the later events at the Trade Union Building, reports that the men with the red armbands were his fellow activists of the "Defenders of Odessa". The activist of "Borotba" Ivan has got a gunshot wound into the belly from a military weapon.

Maybe some were genuine and others injected themselves in their midst, or in whole other spots but with the same mark? This source doesn't say the guys shooting from behind the cops were Borotba - in fact, Borotbas were being shot, perhaps by those guys ... (Ivan not being a fatality, it wouldn't show on the list of fatal shooting, which seem to be pro-Maidan people, at first anyway) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC).

Consider "Napaki" photo "A3" of one pro-Russian contingent seen in the area of the clashes. The fence almost seems to say Borotba (БОРОТЬБА) followed by a down arrow, spurring a thumbs-down from the "Unity" side ... a guy there with red bands, another on a roof, pointing (finger? gun?) at somewhere. And which type is this guy in {http://ukraineinvestigation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/82-Pro-Ukrainian-activists-capture-pro-Russian-separatist.jpg photo A10?] He doesn't look like such a clown, but then, he's been beaten up and captured. Apparently a couple dozen activists, presumably genuine ones, were cornered here in the Athena business center and arrested. That all stands out from their mobile and police-protected peers who worked so hard to spark the massacre. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I found the Borotba.org website, and saved the links to a few articles of the time (in Russian) that might provide a fuller picture of their understanding, especially as it evolved. At the moment at least, the site is unavailable, hopefully a glitch. But here are the links to articles that seemed to be related to events of May 2 in Odessa. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:39, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The Economist, May 8: Odessa's fire examined: Ukraine's murky inferno

Several witnesses claim they saw Alexei Albu, a pro-Russian leader, directing people into the building. On Wednesday he denied this, but he did say that because the fire spread so quickly and killed so many he believes it was pre-planned.

Hm. That's Borotba's leader who claimed some red-armband guys as his own. Someone with a good knowledge of his face claims that same guy himself was one of the shady portion of those who crammed people in for the massacre, but this at least he denies. Why does that surprise me? It's claimed (by him?) he was injured there ... was Mr. self-defense just one of the sheep someone else herded in there to get injured? In that widely-ridiculed strategic decision? Safari still cannot find Borotba.org. Last we heard, they were claiming to be framed for some of the most crucial parts in the set-up. But this alleged leader - one version of him at least - sounds a little fishy himself. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:57, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Denial according to The Economist. No reason to believe a word of it until properly sourced. ;o) borotba.org has been offline since you mentioned it. Tried from time to time. --CE (talk) 14:47, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Borotba site - never did come back up there. But whenever that was, it re-appeared in the Soviet Union - http://borotba.su/ will check later for the old articles. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yeah, I stumbled upon that lately and was meaning to leave the info here, but forgot. That was at least two weeks ago. Could be that it has been up all the time under that domain. --CE (talk) 23:53, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Good point, but it could go either way - he vouches for the provocateurs and being at (and so likely leading defense at) the Trade Union hall, according to a statement on their website (I thought it was via Social Media, but still possibly to fake) while others blame him for leading that bizarre defense. (or allegedly, by the same source). I hope the real guy would deny it. But making up a denial could make him seem a little shady ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Other tidbits I can find: His home was raided March 31 - the ohter Ukraine, June 21 essay intro - "Autonomous Workers Union" doesn't like them because they're "reactionary" so that's a plus. They "announce that “Borotba” union is not a part of our movement. During the whole time of this political project’s existence, its members tended to be committed to the most discredited, conservative and authoritarian “leftist” regimes and ideologies, which do not represent the interests of working classes in any way." Wikipedia page suggests they were strongest or most effective in Kharkiv. And it says

On May Day Borotba members staged a rally in Kovalska Street in Odessa.[17] The following day, Borotba member Andrey Brazhevsky was beaten to death by a far-right mob after jumping from the third floor of the burning Trade Union Building during the 2 May 2014 Odessa clashes.[18][19] A detailed eyewitness account of the human tragedy that occurred in and around the Trade Union Building in Odessa during the right-wing march "For unity of Ukraine" was published on Borotba's website.[20][21] Following the Odessa Trade Union building massacre and other attacks on Borotba's members and offices, Borotba was forced underground.[22][23]

The leader of the Odessian regional organisation of Borotba, Aleksey Albu, fled to Russian-annexed Crimea, where he founded a "Committee for the Liberation of Odessa" on the 24th of May 2014 together with a representative of the pro-Russian party Rodina ("Homeland"), Aleksandr Vasilyev, and a representative of the organization "Slavic Unity", Dmitry Odninov.[24][25]

Borotba founder Sergei Kirichuk speaks in later May "An attack on the activists of the march for the unity of Ukraine soon followed. The attackers were some unidentified people in masks and with ribbons made from red tape. They acted with tacit approval of Kiev-controlled police. And so, we should ask – who controls the police? Clearly, not the activists of the anti-government movement…" - There's a statement by Albu of May 21, and he had been running for Mayor of Odessa here in French. I'll check later, must run. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Excerpts from the May 19 letter (English-French-and-back)

The protest was peaceful and respectful of the law. We were not separatist, and we fought for a change of government in Ukraine, a unitary system too centralized federal organization. We wanted the regions have more authority... that would not engage in social genocide of its own citizens under the dictates of international financial institutions. We wanted to make our peaceful, quiet streets banning neo-Nazi gangs, such as Right Sector. With these slogans, I entered the campaign for mayor of Odessa as the candidate of the Kulikovo alternative...

I stress again, our mobilization was exclusively peaceful.

Indirectly, this refutes the allegation that the violent provocateurs were his red-armband guys. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

On May 2, the junta responded to our peaceful protest by sending armed fascist sticks, balls and Molotov cocktails. Dozens of residents of Odessa were killed. The massacre was followed by arrests. My friends and I had to leave Odessa, because we were threatened with arrest or violence. Those who remained went underground. I had a meeting with my comrades in arms, and we felt there was more opportunity to participate in these bloody elections. The junta ruthlessly eliminates all democratic rights, in addition to repressive actions of the police and terror street neo-Nazis. In these circumstances, we can not run an election campaign or a legal political work.

On May 1, my friend, the regional adviser Odessa Vyacheslav Markin, had agreed to be my campaign manager. On May 2, he was killed. Neo-fascist patrols attacked our activists and beat them. The SBU (state security police) puts pressure on people close to me.

He goes on to say elections can't mean a thing in this climate and it's time for mass revolt. Nothing in here sounds fishy. He sounds sane, and does not make it sound like he was in charge or even present at the camp that evening as alleged. However a May 6 video from comments there suggests he was beaten in the head, somewhere, a couple days prior... - --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh and on the contemporaneous attacks on Borotba's leftist credentials, a good if tedious critique here, most importantly noting "What is also very worrisome is that the accusations were put forward in a situation were Borotba were under deadly threat (and still is) in the new situation when facsist could act more in direct complicity with authorities and treatened the lives of Borotba members, storming their offices and stealing membership lists. This political terror ... those who live under more secure circumstances, should be careful before stating others as the main problem not seeing their own role in the emerging conflict. Yeah, timing your attack with Pravi Sector death threats makes you look real genuine struggle, doesn't it? Fake-ass "resistance" purists, same kind who find a reason to not oppose each and every imperialist war that emerges (of he's a bit religious, he ran a business, yadda yadda so we say what New York said) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Did Any Die in the Massacre?

It's said some of the provocative supposed pro-Russians from the early clashes escaped that scene to shelter at the Trade Union Hall with the pro-federalists. If that's so, one should expect some of these to turn up among the dead and arrested - the two categories ostensibly covering everyone there (about 200 or more) at the time the mob arrived. Among those arrested, it's unclear, but among the deadthere's one clear and visually supported allegation of this around ( as far as I've seen and read so far). This could be just one of a few, or a token member of or a stand-in for a segment that managed to provoke so many deaths and yet escape unharmed... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure ATM where I saved the sources pointing to this match, the details and images they used, etc. But the main thing is this graphic I assembled to show three views of what's supposedly the same guy. Left: a masked man seen during the downtown scuffles, clearly amongst the red-armband contingent, wearing the orange-and-black St. George ribbon that spawned the derogatory nickname "Colorado" (This, I think, is from a Napaki photo). Center, a man seen dead inside the Trade Union Hall around 9 PM, in the "Flagneck tour video" - no mask, burned face. They take his bulletproof vest during that recording. Right, the same victim seen in a next-day photo. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

What this shows beyond reasonable doubt is that the same set of clothes, down to the shoes, was present at both locations. Presumably the guy seen downtown was at the hall with his clothes, and later they're on this corpse that may or may not be of the same man seen earlier. In the video, his ribbon is missing, but the host "flagneck" is sure he's a "Colorad" when the man filming asks if maybe this was one of theirs. This could be from already checking his ID or other clues like the ribbon he took, or from knowing this was the guy dressed to match with the early provocateurs. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

To consider: the victim's pulled-up shirt reveals a reddened belly seen on many other victims. I think this is from heat (or maybe chemicals) on the skin exposed when people pulled their shirts up to serve as smoke (or chemical) filters. The red usually starts suddenly at the waistline and fades up the abdomen. If he had the same mask on, it would help as a smoke filter, leaving less need to lift his shirt. Also, the bulletproof vest would prevent pulling it up anyway. So, how did his belly get red unless my theory is wrong, or he was dressed differently when he was trying to breathe? And if he was wearing the mask then, who removed it and burned his face? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware of palor mortis and livor mortis (settling of blood after death into a pale upper half and red lower half), and that may be part of the redness here. But the red line should run up his side pretty uniformly, instead of mainly just centering above the hips. There's nothing in his posture to make gravity move blood sideways to his hips. That must be local tissue damage - a burn. This I think is livor mortis plus mild burns. The upper (belly) burns have paled along with the rest of his upper (front) half, but probably less so - a band all around just above the belt remains livid. The the whole back would redden, a bit up each side, fading. The reddest would be in the burn zone above the waistline, the hips and lower back (lower back back less so if he were moving forward through the heat, as most people would do in an effort to get out of it).--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:01, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

He is on two Napaki photos. I am not convinced he is in provocateur role, though, more like keeping a watch on what's happening. He dos not seem to have a weapon. On some video (can't remember which), there is a guy with megaphone on a platform, at Kulikovo. He says something like "maybe we should tell (some our guys) to come back here and hide. It is hard to hear exactly what he said, but it sounded watch-out or defensive posture, not aggressive or provocative. The only bad guy identified seems to be Botzman. (I am not on top on what's the Botzman story is)--Resup (talk) 12:13, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

He may not be provoking things himself, and might even be one of the genuine anti-Maidan activists who managed to be at both places (though my impression is most genuine ones were rounded up at Afina) - but thanks for the quck link to review the pictures. The set he's seen standing in front of looks suspiciously goofy in spots but otherwise likely legit anti-Fascist defenders. However, he's on the outer fringe of that group, along with red armband guys of a different energy, visible clubs, almost seem to have these others corralled. (??) Or maybe they're all allied, can't say for sure. So it's got a couple layers of ambiguity, but... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

...if this is a man willing to put his clothing on someone whose head bled and whose face was burned in the massacre, he's a bad cat. He also seems, now that I look at it, to be someone with less hair under the ski mask than the dead guy with the red belly would have (pony-tail, possible, but ... I'm making a case here). On the video relating to the decision to hide there, we need to cover that (ie I need the link if you recall - I know the spot that goes and has been lacking. :) ) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't remember which video was that, and there are many out there. It has some (not very long) footage from Kulikovo where not much is happening; and there is a guy on a platform talking, as I recall, using megaphone. This is prior to the mayhem. Can't recall what video that would be. It was not well audible, as I recall. --Resup (talk) 13:05, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Геннадий Кушнарев (Gennady Kushnaryov)

This man appears to be Кушнарев (Kushnarev). It is said that he was shot and killed, and than his face was burned. He was a decorator and designer, and a druzhina member (I am yet to meet a violent designer). On the photo, a person photographing the corpse is said to be Гончаренко (Goncharenko). He is a millionaire (in $), and a chairman of the Odessa regional council , elected this August; he is said to be zealous in his opposition,-- or worth,-- towards Kulikovo activists.--Resup (talk) 22:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Quickly on the millionaire and photos - interesting. Photo of him filming is Dumskaya (Sergei Dibrov, maybe) - seems to be at night ... is "Flagneck" just around the corner? Or is this a different scene and time? probably. The photo I used above is not his though, but from the young lady who took all the other next-day pictures. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:22, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Quote noticed on Fort Rus "Odessa was the first city that gave resistance to the separatists. On May 2nd in Odessa, when an attempt was made to disperse a pro-Ukrainian march and seize the Odessa administration building, it was stopped not by police, not by the SBU, not by the national guard, but by ordinary Odessans, which came to the city centre. And this is very important,” - said Goncharenko. Well, goes 'wonderfully' with the corpse photo-op. (Maybe we should let the lady chief editor know? Well, just a thought...)--Resup (talk) 07:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, this can get a bit more specific now, thanks Another source agrees (trans) "The man in the striped shirt was not an agent provocateur. The residents have identified him. We need to restore his good name. His name is Gennady Aleksandrovich Kushnarev (26.06.1975 - 02.05.2014). He died as a hero, protecting women. He was one of the commanders of the Odessa team, who sympathized with the Communist party." I don't doubt that's who was murdered and is finally seen in the clothes. And it could be him earlier too. The shirt does seem convincingly smoke-stained to be worn throughout and not just pulled on later. Whoever says it shows a gunshot in his back, no, just some stripes close together. At least, judging by the shirt, which might have been put on later ... I don't doubt that's who was murdered and is finally seen in the clothes. And it could be him earlier too. The shirt does seem convincingly smoke-stained to be worn throughout and not just pulled on later. Whoever says it shows a gunshot, no, just some stripes close together. At least, judging by the shirt, which might have been put on later ... This source has a prior photo of him with matching pants, gloves, and watch to the outfit in question. What doesn't seem to match, to my eye, are his eyes. Photo of Gennady, no clear color, I'd say brown-ish. The guy seen near the provocateurs, seems by the photo to have bright blue eyes. If it turns out he has that color of eyes, I could just about drop the issue - the one photo is not that clear. Looking again, there still doesn't seem to be enough hair under the mask - looks more like a skinhead than the guy who wound up dying. And whatever to make of these points, I think his red belly and that bulletproof vest still do not match.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:22, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, he's got blue eyes. photo. Could have checked first ... other mysteries being what they are, quite likely he was one of the legit people wrapped up in the early clashes, who was unlucky enough to escape that frying pan and wind up in the fire. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Kushnaryov, it is strange that he is being photographed bloodied, no vest, no head burns; and that in the vest and head burn (they took of the vest and put it back or what?)--Resup (talk) 00:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

That all lines up, I think. First found on video, face-up with burned face and vest. Vest taken and rolled over on the same video. Seen that way, back of head not burnt. Seen next day rolled face-up again and tagged. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Also there: a witness on that page that talks about his killing on video - might be worth a little translation. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:22, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Video from the blog . Woman on the video was in the building; she is very emotional, but gives no that many details actually. (Not sure how much details to give. Maybe we need to consider what is that we are trying to -solve the mystery? Record every human, or every victim, story in English)?

She saw Kushnaryov alive, than recognized him dead on the photos on internet. She gives a matching description (with body armor on--but unclear is it before or after death). Apparently he arrived with a group of others from Greek street, and many guys there had some (not serious) wounds. They decided to defend Kulikovo. Kushnaryov tried to have women to leave, but did not want to leave himself, and some women came out of concern for safety of young men, so they all stayed. There were some old people at Kulikovo to begin with, not very many. When defenders realized that a huge crowd is rushing towards them, they locked themselves in the building. Molotovs were thrown at central entrance and the back of the building, creating lots of dense smoke. Also some sort of stun grenades were used, as one young guy ended up shell-shocked on the floor. She was in one of the sides on the third floor, and apparently separated from Kushnaryov at that point. She tried to escape smoke, banging onto office doors, most of which were locked. She and about 5 others ended up in one unlocked office. One male jumped from a window (as she say after inhaling more smoke than the rest of them); this happened in front of his son who was also in the room. There was a young couple there who lay down and not move much ("R & J ?" ). They tried to get air from windows, and shouted that there are women in their room; they had shouts "Glory to Ukraine," and something like "So, enjoying your move to Russia?. " Somebody, possibly firefighters, helped them to get down, to the second floor, on a rope. ("That rope is still there, she says") Two men went down, than herself. Another woman, a bit overweight, was too afraid to go down. From the second floor, she and other women were rescued by firefighters, down some 'iron thing.' But guys were afraid to go down fearing that they will be killed when on the ground. When she was on the ground, she ended up sitting next to an old/mature man, all bloodied, and another mature woman. THere were some cops with shilds, but they were not armed. One 'Pravosek' managed to kick the old wounded man in the face with his boot; that knocked the man (semi)- unconscious, and his companion tried to keep him 'awake.' Eventually the witness escaped with the help of some Odessian in the crowd; he asked to make sure she had no St. George 'colorad' ribbon (she did not), and he helped her away. But the witness say she believes some other women were beaten. --Resup (talk) 00:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Consider what we're doing - "solve the mystery? Record every human, or every victim, story in English)?" That's a good point I'll take up somewhere real soon. Short answer, as much of it as we reasonably can, or need to, to figure out what we can. Mainly we want the important stuff, but you can't say right off which stuff that is... --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Socialist Sergei Allegations

One of the most annoying articles yet, but may have some value anyway: At ZComm as Darkness in May. A socialist eye-witness in Odessa, to correct views onu"ultra-nationalists on the “pro-Russian” or separatist side, who are mistakenly being presented as “anti-fascist” by some western leftist writers." It's actually an account of someone calling himself Sergei, translated by "Olga P and GA" and published by Gabriel Levy, first run at People And Nature. (Russian original? Not sure) Segei relates moving a trash bin with Maidanistas who were happy to see a Socialist join them, like on the Maidan. They all started out "frowning at the “ultras” with ill-disguised revulsion" until the real Nazis showed up and "they were giving the [pro-Russian] combatants a beating, shoulder to shoulder with the same “ultras”." But mainly, he has a strong and confused political opinion, and some interesting allegations.

Opinion:

No-one knows who set the House of Trade Unions on fire: the Molotov cocktails were flying from both sides.'

...

Who were the culprits in the Odessa tragedy? For me, the answer is clear – Russian fascists and the police. Fascists, yes, fascists – and cut out your “But our grandfathers fought…” already. ... Your deeds speak for themselves. The radicals from the pro-Russian camp marched to the city centre with one aim – to beat up, or maybe even to kill, people.

...

A counterattack at the Kulikovo field was probably inevitable....

...

it infuriates me when this reactionary bunch howls about the people tortured in the House of Trade Unions. Why don’t you honestly tell us how you were going to beat and kill, how you attacked first, how you shot into the crowd from the rooftops? The death of your supporters on Kulikovo is entirely on your conscience. You did everything possible in order to end up that way. And this is another argument to show that you are fascists.

Allegations:

The regional council deputy Vyacheslav Markin fell to his death. The Odessans remember him mainly due to the events of 19 February: when the visiting combatants [then supporting the Yanukovich government], in the same black uniforms, beat up Maidan activists and journalists, Markin said it was self-defence of the city, and that the “Mai-downs” should “get more of it”. [The derogatory term “Mai-down-y” implied that Maidan participants suffer from Down’s syndrome.]
- Sergei may have originally acknowledged Markin was beaten to death, as the translation (first posting) says: "I have corrected an error in the text. The regional deputy Vladimir Markin fell to his death; he was not beaten to death. My sincere apologies. GL." Sorry, Gabe. To correct you, he fell to his severe injury but not to his head, and died in the hospital under disputed causes, with a severe wound in his bead. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

An interesting point: the most radical part of the Odessa Anti-Maidan – the Nazi “Odessa squad” druzhinniki, Imperials,[4] and the Cossacks – had left Kulikovo field on the day before and relocated outside the city, at the 411th troop memorial [a memorial park to Red army defenders of Odessa during the second world war]. Their camp there was also broken up, but no one was hurt. It turned out like that because nobody barricaded themselves in and shot back, and the pro-Russian activists stationed there just quietly left.
- Does Sergei really know why "it turned out like that"? Is this the clique of Dolzhenkov and Chudeko? The branch with some members who really did start this, after moving out of harm's way so the hate would fall totally on Kulikovo? And in trade, perhaps, they were only peacefully broken up ...

The “Odessa Squad” (Druzhyna) gathered at the memorial of the fallen militiamen at Aleksandrovskii Prospekt. There were about 300-400 of them, hardly any women (except for a few girls from the paramedics), not one single old man, just fighters, equipped accordingly, wearing helmets, many of them with bullet-proof vests. On some of their shields one could spot the logos of the Russian nationalist organisation “Dozor”, many were bearing corresponding symbols.

The sound of a gunshot can’t be mistaken for anything else. Just like gunshot wounds. Just like the bullet casing we found on Deribasovskaia street – knowledgeable people say it comes from a “Saiga”, the hunters’ version of an AK-47. I don’t know, they probably know what they’re talking about.

Some of the cops got it in the neck. (??)

From one of the official sites of the Odessa Anti-Maidan: “For me that pseudo image of a Ukrainian brother has disappeared, because it’s Russian people who live in Ukraine, and those who don’t consider themselves as such are scum, who must be finished off quickly, by death and death alone.”
The Anti-Maidan groups are now putting up links to the Vkontakte pages [a Russian language site similar to facebook] of Maidan activists. Without checking whether they were even present on 2 May, they just pick on people who have put something pro-Maidan on their wall. They put up a link to the page of the wife of an activist of the liberal “Democratic Alliance” (“the bitch is one of the leaders”) – notwithstanding the fact that that organisation always did their best to calm down the hotheads in the Maidan crowd and decisively spoke out against any violence directed at political opponents.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

There is major information warfare on-going, and some 'weirdly confused' accounts can be found by shiploads in Russian or Ukrainian language, and are widely present on some Ukrainian media, on vk sites of main pro-Kiev proponents, etc. This is a huge machine with serious resources, which has its advocates and exert an effect on some brains. It is no surprise that something of that sort is published in English. However, this overall point of view (to which an author is entitled), is not supported by evidence, and so is not more that an author's opinion. Particular allegations are also not supported, for example, hearing gunshot, seeing gunshot wounds, and seeing casting, even if all of that is accurate, obviously does not establish who did it, and acting in whose interests--Resup (talk) 13:32, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Clash Analysis

Hrets'ka Street

Греческий = Hretska/Gretska = Greek

Video: long UStream video (Youtube mirror)

This video starts with rally in the park in Soborno Square (building: Odessa Spaso-Preobrazhensky Cathedral?) - moves east towards the nearby stadium, I thought. Shadows at 9:00 in suggest around 4:20 PM, so the start is around 4:10 (rough estimates, +/- 9 min.) At the park's edge, on north-running Preobrazhens'ka street, a moderate police presence, with more just then rushing in to the east. Along the west side of the street, a line of apparently pro-government militants, all in camouflage, with matching (wooden?) shields, holding a neat line along the park's edge and flying Ukrainian flags. Everyone runs across the street and east down Hrets'ka Street towards the big oval-shaped building with the blue upper part (center in the inset composite view) that's actually "Business center "Gallery Athena" ("Afina")" from which sniper shooting is alleged. The arean is some blocks further east, so this is still the route to the football game. About halfway to the business center is a police line. There's a lot of trowing smoke bombs fram different directions, and unclear action that would need more analysis. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:01, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Local photographer Petro Zamakis followed the clashes and took a ton of widely-used photos, starting with the Hrets'ka street incident. He claims the separatists had come from the south and positioned themselves near the Athena center. The police line was between the two parties, and the image above might show a Maidanista on the wrong side of the line running to his own side. ^[6]

Zhukova Lane

A 7:00 clash video shows this incident from above; this seems to be on north-running Zhukova lane where these militants and police are somehow in one group, being pelted and pushed back by others. Some are seen running here from people largely wearing yellow and blue. They're making a show of taking shelter behind the cops, who let them. The militants are even pointing guns from behind them, if not firing (possible shots fired in audio, no expert). A composite view from several moments shows most of the relevant scene and at least 5 red armbands (right half).

Points of note:

The militants make weak, useless barricades behind the police, and get seen moving things around as if they might be (a guy moves one tree inside a fenced area for no reason - 1:00 upper screen)
They aren't coordinating this with the police, very well - police trip over their trash bins while retreating
An interesting molotov cocktail with a flare in it (?) is hurled by the other side (lands 3:44, burns with extra energy 'til past 4:00 - this starts their retreat).
Several red armbands, esp. early in the video, among those making barricades (right in the panoramic image).
A heavyset (fat) guy in tank top with rifle, seen at left 5:55, is seen in the photo above, and also in the next video.
star shield - Soviet style? Genuine or parody? (2:16 lower screen, 6:30 left. center in the composite view above)
bald man addressing the police the whole video - emphatic gestures, at 3:00 getting upset with the stone throwers too - he's meant to be seen trying to make peace or something. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:09, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Time: I paused it at 1:26 to consider the man at upper left's shadow relative to the pavement edge here, for a solar azimuth of about 261 degrees (nearly west) Approximate shadow length vs. height gives a solar altitude - an oddly low 30 degrees or so. Can those coexist at a single time? Yes. NOAA says 5:05 PM (17:05) is a great fit: az 260.96, El 29.85. Estimate, then: 5:05 +/- 4 minutes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Petro Zamakis moved from the Hrets'ka clash to the northern Derybasivs’ka street., where "football fans and separatist had their own war. There were already casualtiesonbothsides. Ambulances took them to the hospitals non-stop." He took the photo used here of the red armband militants, along with several others (one showing Dmitri Fucheji working with them?) He saw what he thinks is the first molotov coctail thrownm as well as the rifleman firing an AK - both seemed harmless at the moment (all for show?). Further:

After that police forces joined separatist. Everything that was after did not make any sense. Police forces and pro-Russian fighters united and fought together. Police formed a live shield and fighters took active part in war actions. When it was necessary, police let the separatists come through, when pro-Ukrainian activists counterattacked, police let separatists to hide behind their backs. On one of the following photos you will see how police forces and separatists form a line together to cover the missing parts and strengthen flanks. Also, on another photo you will see a guy in camouflage with the mask on his face standing near commanding officer all the time. ^[6]

Athena Center

Афина = Afina = Athena

A third confrontation was again on Hrets'ka (Greek) street, but further east around the shopping center "Athena" or "Afina," with pro-Russians holed up inside, snipers on the roof, some shooting, a burned business across the way, and dozens of pro-Russians finally arrested. Others flee south, reports say. Details/sources in time ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Belated summary: This is the central part of the first clashes that set the tone for what came next, not to be tackled too lightly. From what I've been reading, to be explained as it is below, this is where the sniper shootings and most pre-Kulikovo deaths happened, where trapped anti-Maidan activists, and fire all first play in, and the only place where swift police action enters the scene.

It seems the red armband group(s) - provocateurs and genuine alike - wound up taking refuge in the Athen ( Афіна ) business center, blocked the exits, and provoked the mob with gunfire and molotov cocktails from the roof. The Euromaidan side started a fire next to this place (by Noodle Palace), stole the fire truck that was sent, used it to crash barricades. The police here - a special "Falcon" (Berkut?) unit then stormed Athena and arrested 48 activists - all "pro-Russian" (same as official death toll, oddly). It seems likely these were mostly or all of the genuine camp, corralled and removed from the picture in a paddy wagons. Some others reportedly escaped this trap and ran to Kulikovo Polje. Guess which portion it seems likely those were? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Fire and Stealing a Fire Truck

(forthcoming)

Shooting Victims

We're still a little hazy here on the exact details, but generally it's said of the 48 officially recognized deaths on May 2, 42 were of federalists killed at Kulikovo Field, and six were shot earlier in the downtown clashes. It's generally taken that the shooters were on the Anti-Maidan side, and killed six Euromaidan activists, thus sparking the rage that caused the massacre (or, in pro-Kiev shorthand, this shooting by "pro-Russian terrorists" is in fact the only thing that could be called a "massacre," which they are directly to blame for. All else was at best some accidental shit that followed the "massacre") --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

However, a closer look suggests these six, some of whom died only later in the hospital, are from both sides. [a list showing 6 with gunshot wounds This list at a Russian-langiage discussion forum] (seems credible, worth verifying, time allowing, to whatever degree...) gives six names and reported details for these six. As I translate it) The list seems to be all "lost in the area of the shopping center "Athena"," or so the poster thinks (it does seem to be the main or maybe only real fatal-shooting spot, aside from inside the TU hall). (Here re-numbered to be a simple 1-6) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

(Initial Yandex translate with some repairs --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC))

Andrey Biryukov V., 04.08.1978 born, Odessa, citizen of Ukraine. Cause of death: hemorrhage from a gunshot wound in the lung. The body found at the entrance to the underpass, located at the intersection of the Transfiguration and Deribasovskaya street. In Odessa held the funeral of activist Maidan Andrei Biryukov
Golikov Alexander, 08.12.1968 born, citizen of Ukraine, lived in Odessa region. Cause of death: gunshot wounds of the abdominal wall, pelvis, buttocks, large blood loss. Passed by the scene and intervened in the conflict. Accurate information is not available. Here marked as a separatist.
Gennady Petrov I., 27.02.1985 born, born in the village of Novo-Alekseyevka tatarbunar district of Odessa region, citizen of Ukraine. Cause of death: gunshot wound to the chest, a large blood loss. Intervened in the conflict. Accurate information is not available. Some links: 1, 2, 3, remote page from Facebook.
Jaworski Nikolay Anatolievich, 02.01.1976 born, citizen of Ukraine, lived in Odessa, worked in SE SSES of Ukraine in the Odessa region. Cause of death: gunshot wounds from a shotgun in the back, buttocks, large blood loss. Intervened in the conflict. Accurate information is not available. Here marked as a separatist. UPD. Seems to be found. Antimaidan.
Igor Ivanov, 31.07.1986 born, citizen of Ukraine, lived in Zatoka. Cause of death: gunshot wound of the left iliac region. He was an assistant referee in the Primorsky court of the city of Odessa. She said that he was the "foreman". Apparently, it was included in the squad for the defense of Odessa. Yesterday in Odessa two activists of the Right sector were killed. One of them is Igor Ivanov, a member of the political Council. (Died in hospital)
Losinski Eugene Lukic, 16.11.1979 born in, lived in Odessa. Cause of death: gunshot wound of the abdomen. Today, may 11, after nine days in intensive care died participant collisions in Odessa on may 2, 34-year-old Reconstructor Eugene Losinski. During the clashes on the street Greek Losinski received two gunshot wounds buckshot and was admitted to the hospital, where he underwent several operations. However, the resulting injuries were incompatible with life. Lost was the movement Antimaidan. (Died in hospital)

(end list)

Summary: they shot people on both sides, and cops: Where is this so familiar from? Oh yeah, Kiev in February, where the new order willed itself into power with the murky snipers ... here again, similar, where the new order wills itself to retain Odessa. On the list, 2-3 on the Maidan side, 3 reportedly on the other side (2 not very clear) and one not clear at all. More broadly, there were a lot of people shot but not killed - apparently from both sides, and including cops - like the top cop there, Fuchedji, shot through the right forearm between 4:40 and 5 PM. Seen on video, other cops are sporting serious injuries at the same time - Fuchedji is not likely the only cop to get shot by the supposed pro-Russian thugs on that roof. Borotba people (anti-Fascist activists) reported their man "Ivan" was wounded in the belly by one of the bullets but lived. When it's only injury and not death on the line, it only makes sense to hit quite a few on the Maidan side. There seem to be plenty of reported non-fatal shootings on that side - I haven't bothered listing or digging for them --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Who did this shooting and Who didn't? It apparently was not "Botsman" (Vitaly Chudeko) with the AK-47 ... pneumatic toy gun. Maybe someone else in the ground-level part of his red-armband crowd. It probably was the red-armband snipers on the roof of the Afina center, in part. That might be the whole thing or only a main part. One Euromaidan activist, Sergey Hodiyak, was filmed firing a hunting rifle at someone, arrested for that and released on bond. Did he kill anyone? Hard to say at this point. Others on both sides were seen carrying, pointing, and sometimes firing guns that could be real or fake. But the fatal six shots - on both sides and perhaps narrowly not including any policemen - are the most likely to be the work of the elevated snipers that always appear during Andriy Parubiy's urban renewal schemes - Kiev in February, Odessa in May, murky snipers appear and destabilize by shooting at everyone. Last time, Parubiy claimed they were Russian Special Forces and slipped away through his security net after securing his new job as secuity chief for all Ukraine ... At Afina, it seems likely the main killers were not caught, wound up at Kulikovo, and there too never found - slipped back into their own mob and walked out with them. All those killed and arrested were Ukrainians, most agree ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Raid and Arrests

From the Rada investigation report:

At approximately 17.30-17.50 hours, given the situation and the urgency of taking measures to localize and neutralize the conflict, with the permission of the Prosecutor of the Odessa region, the head of the HQ of Ministry of internal Affairs of Ukraine in Odessa region Kuzmenko A.A. in attracting fighters "Falcon", with cries of "stop, police", "all don't move, police, was launched the assault of the administrative building of the shopping center "Athena". Directly outside the front door, where he built a barricade, staff rapid response teams "Falcon" had charge of the weapons. Some of the persons who were there immediately raised his hands and chanted phrases relatively weapon: "don't shoot", "we give up".

(Inside were found) ... 3 empty large containers, which contained the remains of taimisto substances, also at the barricade was poured significant to take a number of flammable liquid. ( 3 порожні великі ємності, в яких містились залишки займистої речовини, також на барикаді була розлита значна кількість займистої рідини. ) ... During the inspection of the roof of the shopping centre and other facilities, suspicious persons and weapons were found. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Those Who Escaped

The Anti-Maidan/red armbands segment was by and large herded into the Afina center and arrested. However, some participants seem to have avoided that and wound up at Kulikovo Field before the massacre there. These, I think, are of two types:

1) legitimate Anti-Maidan activists there to defend the pro-federalism camp and community

2) pro-Kiev/Fascist infiltrators who first provoked the mob downtown, then managed to finalize it at the Trade Unions Hall to ensure the planned massacre there (those would tend to escape this scene unharmed as well, with their pre-planned escape routes and their connections with the mob and certain authorities)

It's possible both groups managed to blend together and appear as one crowd. About the second group, only certain actions (especially from the roof) point that way, with nothing known for sure. The first group, unlucky enough to escape the "Falcon" frying pan and wind up in the fire at the Trade Unions Hall, got there mainly or totally in what most describe as a single "small" group of activists returning only shortly before the massacre. At least two names have been specified, both of activists who died there.

Andrey Brazhevsky: Survivor Alexi Albu said: “I came to the Kulikovo Field an hour before the attack. There were about 200 people, among them many of the older generation. After some time, a small group returned from [a confrontation with the neo-Nazis on] Greek Street, including my friend Andrew Brazhevsky." (source, second-hand) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Gennady Kushnaryov: As ACLOS member Resup translates the lady talking on this video, "She saw Kushnaryov alive, than recognized him dead on the photos on internet. She gives a matching description (with body armor on--but unclear is it before or after death). Apparently he arrived with a group of others from Greek street, and many guys there had some (not serious) wounds. They decided to defend Kulikovo..." I raise some questions about the match above, and quickly decide they likely mean nothing, and this is the guy, with no fakery. Two points in favor of legitimacy: he's not seen doing anything obnoxious or criminal, just somewhat surrounded by others who were - he did not magically survive like the provocateurs hiding around him probably did. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

On 4 May, 67 Kulikovo activists were released, and (quoting Avakov) 42 transferred to a prison outside Odessa. (Subsequent fate of all those people is unclear; it was reported that some of those released were subsequently killed, injured, or re-arrested; I have not seen information about those transferred to another prison). --Resup (talk) 17:02, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Kulikovo Field

This was of course a rather one-sided "clash," and I stand by our calling it a massacre. It's also way south and some time later than the others, requiring some whole change of formula that5 also gave time to reflect and cool down. But this apparently did not happen. The connecting portion, where the angered mob moves towards Kulikovo Polje (field) is not very clear by most sources. Photographer "Napaki" (aka Petro Zamakis?) followed the movement and took some photos that could help set the course and time. At its start:

Some time after pro-Ukrainian activists form a column and head to Kulykove Pole to destroy separatist camp. Tents and barricades have been there for months. Someone asks to leave the police alone.

Along the way, they smash election signs for Mikhael Dobkin or Party of Regions, and sing. ^[6] --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Kulikovo Map

Updated --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The Mob Arrives

' The or a first arrival of the mob can be seen briefly at 5:19 in the slick 17-minute PolitRussia documentary video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaaCDb9g1U (wanted: more direct video source with fuller context). Anyone who got there before this cameraman and entourage didn't get anything burning yet, although it seems the camp is already emptired. No one just then running in the hall is seen; the activists' decision to shelter inside was already made, and they were in. No police doing anything at all are seen right here; if they'd been there, they left without any fight we can see a sign of. Was the decision to abandon them to the mob already made? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Adding to the above, not everyone was inside yet (see below)

Video, original source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHal5LYnUNU 5 minutes including parts of the march there, and tearing up the camp --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The scene at 05:26 in this videos was useful to set a time by sunlight, as frozen, enhanced, and marked on the inset image of here: azimuth (what a sundial reads) is broadly 280-289 or time range 6:50 to 7:40, with a best middle (from a fuzzy shadow falloff line) about 284 = 7:12 PM. Solar altitude, read roughly (on the area in the green box), says a low 10 degrees or so. The azimuth reading is more solid, having a corresponding altitude of 8.25 degrees, but this may push it a tad up (earlier) - 7:11 +/- 5 min., to be adjusted for other clues. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Short clips after that in the same video (6:02) suggests they wasted little time torching the camp and whatever flammable things (like signature lists for the referendum?) were in it. The first emergency call, reporting a fire in tent camp but not yet in the building, was at 7:31, according to transcripts obtained by public investigators and leaked to RT in August. ^[3] This is clearly a no-later-than time.--Caustic Logic (talk) 13:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I had forgotten about the famous compressed view from above (one Youtube posting) 0:33 shows the sun itself. Roughly placed so the rail station and trade union hall corners almost touch, sun just a hair north of that = 285-286 degrees = 7:18-7:25PM (those degrees make a big difference). However, that seems to be at least a couple of minutes after the above arrival, which I still might've time a little early. 7:15-7:20 seems a fair arrival time. Here too we can see, at the start, a snippet of the milling pro-federalism crowd moving into the building, at whoever's urging. At 1:25, almost looks like the "pro-Russian defenders" are still at the door and maybe starting to move inside, only as the whole tent camp just meters away is in flames, sometime after 7:30. Next scene after an edit they seem to be inside, and the rooftop "defenders" are shooting, I presume, from the crowd reaction at 1:39. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

This solar-time-estimate-based approach is tedious, but I wanted to iron out the timeline ... FWIW I've got two video studies of relevance to the mob's arrival.

These are based on video correlation to get dual (or triple) views of these events. The latter is a scene I haven't seen anyone mention, where an apparent lone federalist attacks some Maidan people, swinging a hatchet, and is chased away by the Ukrainian flag. The early part has a full-circle pan that sets the filming location and, being on a direct line to both the sun and the building's north corner, gives a best-yet time - azimuth 284.5 or so, perhaps 285, and not much higher or lower than that range. This gives a time range of 7:16-7:20 PM, favoring the early half. Note that the first tents are already burning here. This puts 7:20 well outside any reasonable time range for initial arrival, and leaves the earliest time I started with - 7:11 or so - looking pretty good. New estimate: first hand slapping first barricade at 7:11:30 +/-2 minutes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Casualties on Maidan Side

Obviously the "clash" at Kulikovo came out with a lopsided death toll - generally taken as zero on the Maidan side to the 42-270 reported on the other. But there was two-way violence; the building defenders and/or provocateurs were seen throwing stones, molotov cocktails, and in a couple spots perhaps firing pistols down at the attackers below (details around, sorry...). As for hits, injuries, or kills from that, little or nothing gets widely noted. I have noticed a sizable smear of blood on the pavement near the front entrance, as if someone had been badly injured there, though I haven't seen anything to say when, who, or how. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:30, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Andrey Krasilnikov

The extremely informed people at Dumskaya.net reported later (via Odessa Daily, Nov. 1) on a Maidan self-Defense member who was, unusually, a Russian citizen and, unusually, got shot outside the TU Hall - serious but not fatal.

Andrew Krasil'nikova ( Андрее Красильникове ) living in Odessa, a Russian citizen who was a member of the 15th hundreds of Self Defense Kiev Maidan ( 15-й сотни Самообороны киевского Майдана ). May 2 Square Kulikovo field, he received a severe gunshot wound - after a shot from a window on the third floor of the House of Trade Unions was shot in the collarbone. Andrew was sent to the 411th Military Hospital, where he was detained by police. Currently Krasil'nikov did not have the status of the victim and the case is held as a suspect. ( В настоящее время Красильников действительно не имеет статуса потерпевшего и проходит по делу в качестве подозреваемого. )

Does currently mean now, November? Six months later and they still consider one of their Maidan fighters, a known Russian dissident they'd be proud to have, is still languishing in jail, misidentified as a pro-Russian bad guy? I presume that just means temporarily, or something fishy is going on. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:30, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The same Dumskaya reported on May 3 on 3 Russians, no word that any of them is wounded, and photos of two guys against identical wall background, presumably police station.

I vaguely remember that a claim that some pro-Kiev man was wounded at TU house was made, possibly on some video; and it was not clear to me at the time what is the basis for such claim; but now I do not remember which video was that.

I should say, Ukrainian sides publish so many lies that chasing them all is not feasible, e.g . the same source reported that Russia is about to charge a Russian for being a mercenary in "Azov," pro-Ukraine nationalist battalion with reputation of being among the worst; well sounds OK so far; but than they tell you in the next sentence that the same guy was a member of illegal "Donetsk people republic", so now Russians are about to charge Novorossia man is an amazing change of heart. So publishing total bullocks is OK in ukr.op. media --Resup (talk) 05:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Too many leads to chase, indeed. We have to ID some and just watch them run away into the brush. This one, maybe interesting enough to catch. I put a tag on it, will search for it again sometime. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:00, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, sorry ... the stuff below is where you already did. I'll review it then sooner than I was going to. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There is something about Krasilnikov wounded here on ukr.op May 2 group. According to Gerasimova, Krasilnikov yelled: Run Away! Sniper!, hided under a tree, but when leaving his position was seriously wounded in his collarbone - bulletproof vest and helmet(???) did not save him from "12.7 caliber bullet". It is not even clear what is claimed, if he was not wounded when behind the tree, but only when leaving, he can be shot by somebody else on Kulikovo field (not from the building). This murky story look ukr. op. garbage: no details how it is made known, claiming a story and appealing to witnesses at the same time; so how on hell does she (a journalist) knows what nobody else knows? What she says is basically illiterate, 12.7 mm is a standard for a professional sniper rifle or (full) machine gun, only a professional would have such equipment. Saiga, a hunting CARBINE (which looks like a Kalashnikov, not as sniper rifle), has 12 caliber (18.5 mm diameter), most often it's buckshot patron, rarely a bullet; any of that stuff will not penetrate a bullet proof vest, and will give some bruising underneath a vest at most. So she does not present evidence AND does not even really understand what is that she is talking about (even in a helmet).

There is another version of this murky story here; now it says he was kept for 15 days by SBU, accused in "organizing mass disturbances", and than sent home under house arrest. Well, really unclear what/when/where actually happened to him; what is clear that they would want to have a Russian to place a blame on --Resup (talk) 07:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I do not remember seeing a gunman in TU house on video, or seeing somebody wounded on the field near the building. There could be some talk that it might have happened. --Resup (talk) 07:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Gunmen, vague - a Cherkasov video maybe sees one in the window (he thinks so, I tend to agree, analysis later) and a man on the roof early in 24:16 video seems to be in pistol-firing posture as people hide from sniper or the like. They don't do a very good job defending, of course. Nothing useful, just a bit provocative, maybe more than I had thought. My reading of that article, below --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I read the article so: At 7:25 PM (per a Dibrov video, sounds like, not checked) the 25 year-old guy is seen either shot or wounded. 12.7 caliber, hit collarbone, helmet saved him from a second shot to the head (aiming to kill the Russian!). This is implicitly from one of the four points they say shooting came from. Four people were shot, they say, and police and official investigations just ignored it. At this point (September 17) they have the guy wounded and evacuated, but his fate simply unknown therafter. They give a phone number for information. They apparently got some, and by Nov. 1 were naming the Russian citizen Maidan guy who'd been arrested and might still have been there then. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC) and "ethnic Russian" to "Russian citizen" Caustic Logic (talk) 13:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

A sniper round would be fired by a sniper, who would be in one place, usually: inside the window of a disputed building, or maybe the roof, depending (sounds like the roof here, but windows are far better for proper sniper work). That this sniper shot maybe the only Russian citizen in the Maidan crowd suggests either:

1) Some kind of anti-Russian neo-Nazi in the Right Sector corner, or people of his side who didn't trust him, knowing the "pro-Russian terrorists" would be blamed anyway 2) the supposed "Pro-Russians" inside, either in very ironic error, or in a well-informed effort to create the above impression. That the guy was then arrested, never mentioned, maybe still there, suggests the authorities, who now think like Right Sector, didn't trust the guy either after he pulled a tricky stunt like surviving. I'm intrigued at what they think he was up to. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC) and "ethnic Russian" to "Russian citizen" Caustic Logic (talk) 13:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Don't remember anybody shot at Kulikovo field on videos. Will keep in mind when reviewing. If he was shot near a tree, this is not too close to TU building (and may be not coming from the building)--Resup (talk) 23:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I checked his 7L24 video, starting near Kulikovo on his way there. They arrive more than 4 minutes in, around 7:28 PM. Sounds too late, doesn't seem to show anyone injured, although he does linger around the ambulances, stationary, talking about something. Must be a different video Dibrov just got his hands on, not one he filmed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Shooting From TU Hall

As mentioned in the section above, the May 2 Group identifies four points of shooting from the Hall of Trade Unions, implicitly all into the Maidan crowd outside and thus from the anti-Maidan people side, injuring four people (exactly one per locale or what, unclear just yet). I can cite details for three possible shooting spots/areas, and only the one victim, covered above.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Third floor window (which part of the building unknown) Halya Coynash, citing them, for "events of May 3," mentions "EuroMaidan supporter Andrei Krasilnikov who was wounded in the arm from a hunting rifle fired from the third floor of the Trade Union building, i.e. by pro-federalism activists." May 2 Group's Tatiana Gerasimova reported (trans) "another firing point was on the third floor of the building," from which Krasilnikov "was seriously wounded in the collar of the armor and the helmet saved from a bullet 12.7 caliber." Not visually supported yet. Suggested time is 7:25 PM. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The roof: May 2 Group's Gerasimov, in the short article, explained only one other locale: "In particular, one of the archers fired from the roof of the House of trade unions, using the Kalashnikov rifle and carbine" saiga." Inferno 24:16 video - rooftop man seen in pistol-firing position @ 2:14 - north end - at this time, people are sheltering behind trees, shouting alarms and sometimes running across open areas, all consistent with fear of shooters on the roof. It's here Mykola Volkov is seen firing up in a direction that to me looks most like towards the roof of the building's portico, with a gun that isn't real anyway. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Nobody seems to be hit, and nothing to attract much of presenter/operator attention. We do not know whose side is the man o the roof belongs, and whether he has a real weapon. A (real) pistol is unlikely to be of hunting carbine caliber (Russian 12 caliber, as in Saiga 12 carbine, is 18.5 mm diameter; while Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry had 0.44 S&W of merely 11.2 mm )

We also see a man on the roof in 5:28 video listed in (videos). At around 1:51, we see a man on the roof, who is not particularly hiding and appears to interact with other Right Sector entering the building. He seems to be Right Sector, or they don't mind at least. --Resup (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

A third floor window at the south end (maybe the same as above, or another spot) Denis Cherkasov video #26 (saved from Petri's stash) by title shows "gun in the window" ( Пистолет в окне ). This is at the other, south end, where the break-in was already underway. The distant door is already letting people in, the second entry not yet. Right above it, possible defender with gun. My analysis: someone pushes shields or other screens up from both sides (Parubiy's snipers learned from their bright green helmet getting spotted in Kiev... there will be videos! Use screen!) Once closed, someone in the middle, at a hole in the glass, pokes out something black - maybe a pistol, no clear shape - not a rifle. That's all we see, and barely (engancement/stabilized view half-done...) But one of Dibrov's videos shows the same corner moments later, with a fresh petrol bomb burning on the pavement and rocks coming down, people hiding behind trees, likely gunshots heard, people running from the entryway - no sign of injury anywhere. Notes: Not much of a defense. The door was open within minutes, like the other one. I call token defense, play-acted to encourage people to take this door as well. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Trade Union Hall Guardians?

The pro-federalists are thought to have occupied the building well before the mob got there, and no one previously. Therefore, it's presumed, those on the roof are in their camp. These share the same red armbands and stupid provocation shown by the "pro-Russian" militants who started it earlier in the day. Various reports have them hurling down molotov cocktails and stones, and firing guns at the mob below, furthering the provocation and drawing the mob towards and into the building, as if to get up to the roof. The loyalty of these provocateurs is widely accepted, but the Kyiv Post did run one unusually level-headed and non-pay-walled repot citing two survivors retelling what they experienced, with minimal (but noticeable) distortions. This said:

Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly seen in video footage, were not from their group.

It's not spelled out that they would be part of the set-up to get the anti-Kiev activists murdered, just some other group, maybe genuinely on their side. Perhaps they were sort-of part of the group, agitated latecomers warning of the angered hordes coming this way? Did they magically have they keys to the locked building, and promise to use their militant skills to protect the peaceniks once they got inside? Did guys already inside or in this new group then get up on the roof? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

It appears some seen earlier in the day, or people just like them, were also at the front door to greet the mob and remind them who they were after. Petro Zamakis (or "Napaki") was with this group, it seems, and reported:

When I reached Kulykove Pole, tents were still untouched. Pro-Russian separatists were building barricades in front of entrance and set their positions there. ^[6]

The photo below, by "Napaki," shows these people had access to the front doors, one left open. This suggests they would be the last ones inside that door shortly, but with a last-minute barricade as well. Right here, they don't seem to have their thumbs in their ears taunting the "pro-Unity rally," but might as well be. They show the same sort of sloppy, useless, almost comical barricade building that was so annoying up north. They like the trash cans. And there they've found and included lost of bare, flammable looking wood, right at dusk. Perfect time for a fire somewhere, and here are those murderous thugs the police wouldn't let us touch earlier ... and a bunch of kindling with hated symbols piled suggestively right around the door. How on earth did these clowns get themselves appointed as defenders of the Trade Union hall and get people inside of it? This turn of events was perhaps the single biggest key to the massacre unfolding like it did. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

From this barricade, Napaki reported "they started throwing smoke grenades." (photo) "A group of separatists was on the top of the building with prepared Molotov cocktails that soon will be thrown down." (photo) "I have no idea why separatist “commanders” made a decision to barricade inside the building and do not retreat further on as far as the most important part of the fight already took place in the center." ^[6] He doesn't really know what was considered most important here. He includes a photo of the last "pro-Russians" to go inside, at the moment manning a slapdash barricade only right at the front steps, trying to look tough and scare the mob away with smoke. These may be people from the earlier clashes - the shield with a red star, or one like it, is here. More careful matching perhaps to come, but there's also a red-armband militant seen at earlier events and later dead in the TU hall. (details soon) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The compressed high-altitude video shows at the start, a snippet of the milling pro-federalism crowd moving into the building, or towards its entrance, at whoever's urging. At the 1:25 zoom-in, it appears the "pro-Russian defenders" are still at the door and maybe starting to move inside, only as the whole tent camp just meters away is entirely in flames, sometime after 7:30. Another video filmed by one of activists there, gives an inside view, if only short snippets and in poor quality (more original footage probably exists) Here we see to 0:11 late afternoon at the camp, preparing stones and barricades, but calm - by reports, this might be about 6:00-6:30 when they heard the mob was coming. At 0:12 a cut to whistling, possibly alarm as they arrive. Time: azimuth seems about 282? (278-85 range, from this segment)) - so about 7:00 (+/- 10 min) and people are still about, but tend to be moving towards the barricade and the doors. 0:18-0:27 is filmed from within the barricade but outside the building still, with the supposed defenders and a few assorted civilians, including a priest saying a prayer and blessing the space before him with a cross. All the tents are burning already. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

After the next cut, the camera-person and many others are inside. We see from the stairs straight back and up, out the second floor window over the back (southwest) lot, which looks safe at the moment, and they should have been running out the back door and across that lot. The next scene is much later, and may be the same spot or, by the darkness outside and frequent molotov cocktails, it's at the other side's stairwell. The places is full of smoke, windows broken out, one window frame just then lit up with a bottle from below (here as another one flies by to the right), There seems to be no building-based sprinkler system helping here. One guy has a working fire extinguisher and gets the window fire slightly contained. That's the last scene here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Bad News Berkut?

On the fateful decision to hide inside, consider this excerpt from Julia Polukhin's July report in Novaya Gazeta, describing the scene on Kulikovo field as the attacking mob headed their way (Google translated):

On the Kulikovo field at that time were women, elderly and men (men not much). On the stage stood Vyacheslav Markin, member of the Odessa regional Council, and the leader of the "people's alternative" Artem Davydenko (see the help "New"), which coordinated the activities of people using the megaphone. Then went to the scene of an unknown man, who introduced himself as a former berkutova. He told what happened in Greek, and urged people not to leave, because after 20 minutes had to come reinforcement. Vyacheslav Markin commands in Megaphone: women building barricades, men are preparing for defense.

"The decision to shelter in the House of trade unions was common, " says activist Antimaidan Vlad Wojciechowski. - To leave, we were not going. Knew more, knew that we would be hit, but no one thought that will kill. Don't know who opened the doors of the House of trade unions, may, security guard, among them was a member of our team. We began to enter into the House of trade unions stones, to have something to defend. I and another guy had turned fire hoses to repel attackers water. But the water was shut off. ^[7]

That unknown man with the panic-sowing and the bad advice is a person of interest, in my opinion. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Because, as I said above " agitated latecomers warning of the angered hordes coming this way" would be consistent with the herding set-up for this massacre, especially if they magically have they keys to the locked building, and promised to use their militant skills to protect the peaceniks once they got inside." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been looking for video evidence for the decision to shelter inside, like Polukhin might have seen (that would have V. Markin in all-light clothes, haven't seen that) But among the videos he saw, and maybe I saw, ACLOS member Resup says there was talk about that, but we're not sure which one. So, I'll propose 33:05 Kulikovo Video maybe? It's audio, so anywhere in the early part where there's such audio. Ring a bell? There some others I know, but not many. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

it has similar footage to what I remember, at 5:36 a guy with megaphone is telling that our guys are surrounded from all sides at Grecheskaya, and that he managed to escape. Old folks start to ask question what they should be doing, than video cuts off to the next scene. From what I remember, few more seconds like that and an answer, not well audible, that perhaps they should than those 'our guys' should come to Kulikovo

Prior to that, video says that there were some 40-50 people (later he says 60 so he is not sure on exact count), mostly old, and mostly women . The day before, leadership of pro-Russians was reported changed; and samooborona tent was gone; valuables (TV set and generator) were removed, as if in preparation for the tent city to come down. Presenter says it was old people armed with sticks with sharp ends. They also had 4 liters of petrol, and made 6 molotovs to defend themselves (would be insane to think old ladies pelted their owns with molotovs later on). They started building something resembling barricades, or rather some small piles of stuff. No militants, no masked people, presenter explains. --Resup (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

So maybe it was a different video, but this shows the guy anyway. Good enough for now. Unless two men arrived with similar stories, this would be our supposed former Berkut, a person of interest (inset image now, from 4:48). He managed to escape even though everyone else is surrounded. He has bad advice that was crucial to the massacre working. Maybe other footage or photos will let us get a better view of his face. I hear him say Pravi Sector. He might be acting injured at first, using the club as a cane, but then the pain vanishes when he starts talking (and maybe not). At 8:05, missed him before, there's Markin alone on stage, or someone dressed and built about like him. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:16, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Update: found better quality copy of the video, saved a fuller res copy, updated the images in the picture with a new version, and links above. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:09, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Who Was Inside Before?

Alexi Albu, Borotba founder who survived the massacre, issued a short but interesting statement from exile in Crimea on the 6-month mark on Google drive. In this he adds a clue: "So far we do not know whether the neo-Nazis were waiting inside the building, or if they entered only at the moment of attack, because everyone saw mattress lying on the floors." If this is true, they were all seeing it for the first time and having no ready explanation

1 - good time to re-think
2 - it may not mean the attackers were sleeping there, slept in, didn't think to clean up
3 - At least as likely, they had placed some beds there (along with whatever else...) to create their image of the separatists who occupied the building and thus became "terrorists." People, beds, their toxic gas, all burned together... --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the status of the building's interior. It's said the federalists had an office support space there, the emergency services had an office in there, that no one or hardly anyone did. This almost sounds like it was a ghost house RS could move around in and decorate at will, with no security, no one seeing it and warning anyone. It might be some mix. Or ... any thoughts, facts we've stumbled across? (the state workers is mentioned in emergency calls, Dumskaya version, or Rada report) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Who Was On The Roof?

This seems a complex point with at least three different threads I'm aware of. How/if they weave together - and all details/links, etc. in time. Now I just wanted to lock this space in to start that clock.--Caustic Logic (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

One compelling image I've promoted is the targeted provocateurs on the roof, making sure molotov cocktails flew "both ways," so "no one knows who started the fire, etc." This "justified" the building invasion, at leas the people up there worth going after. Some clues ("Flagneck," othjers) suggest they never did bother going. The "attic" was too smoky, the roof was left alone. Tatian and Alonya (witnesses) didn't think the guys up there were part of their group (how they'd know, unclear but people do have senses). --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

However, apparently genuine survivors might owe their lives to getting up on the roof, with these questionable people, and were able to avoid attack, and climb down to arrest later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a video showing federalist ribbons, prepared petrol bombs, and what seems like copious blood up on the roof a day or three later. The dialog in this should clear up what's alleged anyway - link in time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The Mob Enters the Hall

Apparently, the front doors were found locked.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Other key videos will be harder to time, as direct sunlight vanishes into the shadows some time before full sunset at 8:07 PM. But the UNHRC's estimated around 8:00 for the mob's entry into the building after the activists. This seems fair, being probably based on the one known set of videos (from Denis Cherkasov, the only person to of the many to release their footage from inside, briefly). Men with bats, chains, etc. pour in through a jammed open door on the southeast end, into a building that's been entered for some minutes before that, by an unknown other members of the mob. So whatever time this is, it's another no-later-than one. The sun is too low or blocked by the building, but it still seems pre-sunset. The inset shows the glow looking NW, the entrance on the southeast end, and a view through that door to a window facing NW. ~~Further in, this shows one last band of direct sunlight on the upper wall in the stairwell (see 1:17)~~ --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Correction: that's a wall fixture light with motion blur. No more sunlight's coming in, so ~~it must be pretty close to 8:00.~~ --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Update: No fresh sunlight means it's after the sun dipped behind the trees (relative to these lower windows) and/or behind some new clouds that rolled in prior to 7:30. At this stage of correlating videos and events of known time, I can safely put most of this incursion footage here and below broadly between 7:30 and 7:50, weighted to early middle, around 7:40. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Howard Amos, reporting for the Guardian, put rescue efforts alongside acknowledgment that Right Sector entered the building, as part of its terrorist endeavor to cleanse the city:

Pro-Ukraine protesters made desperate efforts to reach people with ropes and improvised scaffolding. "At first we broke through the side, and then we came through the main entrance," said one pro-Ukrainian fighter, 20, who said he was a member of the extreme nationalist group Right Sector. ... "The aim is to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians]," said Dmitry Rogovsky, another activist from Right Sector whose hand had been injured during the fighting. "They are all paid Russian separatists." ^[8]

Another view of this same incursion, from 18:00 in this video. This may be the "side" door referred to above - one door was wrenched off its hinges, to jam the other open. Note here the smoke to the right of the exit. It's unclear if that is or isn't present in the other view. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to be smoking in the Cherkasov video. In other views, the smoke in this area is thicker, though it never seems to be one of the major fires. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

A second point of entry can be seen in this Channel 1 video. I couldn't save a copy, but saved some stills, composited into the view at left. This is the southeast corner, near the other penetration point.

Time is likewise unclear - well after the tents went up, burning perhaps a bit low (to the right) ... after 7:30, before 8:00. A stream of people, male and female, most with clubs in hand, stream inside (to help save people?) Woe to anyone trying to escape any fire this way. Note here at lower left the shirtless man with red-and-black (Pravi Sectory) maski mask. In the video it can be seen he's trying to string barbed wire (or razor wire?) between some low peg and the stair's railing. Who but a neo-Nazi would bring razor wire to a football match? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

This might be the "front" entrance referred to by the Pravi Sector guy above, or another part of the initial "side" door entry before they came in even the front main doors (but probably not)--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Time is about the same. The jammed-open door being first is only implied, possibly faked that way for some reason with people really let in from covert insiders. Either way, people can be seen in videos of each scene excitedly going to the other entrance upon learning there's another one, perhaps with a shorter line. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

A second view of this second incursion allows a snappy two-views correlation, plus some more detail on the barbed wire fencing, and ... at least two door-guarding insurgents (operational, connected to someone) seen wearing WWI-style gas masks. Odessa May 2 Massacre VS3 - Right Sector Incursion, Barbed Wire, Gas Masks --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

VS3 - Right Sector Incursion, Barbed Wire, Gas Masks

My word, yet another video of these blatant incursions. not the best quality but 33:05 long and all on Kulikovo. And why did anyone think this was supposed to be secret? It's like a celebrity roast here. 20:47. There's a guy I'd like to ID (far left, leather jacket, glasses), then to the right, the shirtless fence-maker just before the fence, commandante "Flagneck" (see 20:41) helmet on, Parubiy's bulletproof vest of approval under his vest. And 21:06, he and others cheer a man they recognize, who's managed to climb stairs to the fourth floor and turn on a light. He's rocking out with a devil sign. 21:13. Then it repeats the same fence-making scene from a slightly different view, and then pans down the south face to the other break-in point. Smoke here is rolling out the side window much thicker than in the above still. A man looking like Mykola Volkov but with a ski mask (maybe not him) is at the window (0:22). Later in the video (22:45-24:00) both entries are shown later, less busy, as the building gets unbearable. and finally in an unclear scene where a crowd is addressed at the jammed-open door, late dusk (31:05). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC) and Caustic Logic (talk) 12:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

A panoramic composite view, with a name for the guy I wondered about. He appears, otherwise with police, and seems to be Andriy Parubiy's senior representative there. See here. "Matchstick" is the apt nickname I came up with for the right Sector fence builder seen again here (just before the fence - at 21:22 he's barely seen at right starting it) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

A short clip of this same footage but far clearer resolution suggests there's a high-res version of this video somewhere. Its title "Гуцалюк (Gutsalyuk) '20140502 18 47 35" shows it knows who that is, and suggests a time of 6:47:35, which must mean 7:47, accurate or not. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Notes on this scene from Julia Polukhin (Gtrans): might say the scene here includes #Yuri Borisenko (see above), mentions the break-in here, people "below them shouting: "Glory to Ukraine - glory to the heroes!" One of the "heroes" looks out of the window of the room in which the lights are on, waving two hands, then disappears from sight." It also mentions Sergei Gutsalyuk ( Сергей Гуцалюк ), whose name comes out funny: "active negotiations with the police at this time was led by Sergey world of cultural plants, companion of Hurwitz Odessa "Strike", the commander of the so-called Cossack settlements connection assistant Andrew Parubiy." ^[9] A--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Another video - to expand on - not replace, the last. Third view included, into a near-continuous 2-minute span. Headphones let you hear the stereo separation of the exactly-synched videos. Perps highlighted as in the panorama. Worth embedding too - I want this to be the "see how seen this was?" section.:

VS7 - Incursion (expanded) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Yet another video mostly shares an older guy relating the day's events a week later (Ukrainian, no subtitles, on-site, excellent resolution.) It includes some unique footage. Included later in the 14-minute video is a more straight-in than usual view of the southeast incursion. The videos above show it after the left-hand inner door was torn off and jammed in, or twisted horizontal. It was never clear why, and this new view doesn't help; it shows the first view I've seen after the outer left door was torn off and tossed aside, but while that inner door was still intact. It looks like it's already open a crack, and a simple door-stopper jammed in the bottom should have sufficed. Maybe they just thought it needed to look more like a full break-in as opposed to an insider let-in? Maybe all the door-tearing is staged for that reason?

--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

On this video, see transcription by Resup here) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I was late to check Hromadske.od.ua video, but it too shows this entry zone, both commandeered exits. The south one is the site of an interesting arrest of a young woman from inside the building (22:56). Will describe elsewhere. Next, the same scene expanded in VS7 is seen from a fourth camera angle I've seen (26:10 - no more updates, sorry) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

And one of Sergei Dibrov's videos barely captures the first (south) incursion. At the start of a video starting (by title) at 7:46, we can see the southeast (near) entry vacant and not yet in business. But at the farther door, the resolution is just enough I say that's a row of heads formed into a line there. Entry by 7:46 at the latest. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

"desperate efforts to reach people"

Thanks to Petri's stash, I can finally see Denis Cherkasov video #26, right before his three interior videos. This shows the operation is in its early phase: southeast entry still locked, south one allowing entry. There's already a barbed-wire fence he's at and other step over. Why that exists, still unclear. This seems to be prior to the Dibrov video mentioned above (no burn mark where something's burning there, so prior to and not after that, and not during, or we'd see it burning here, duh) How much before is unsure, but at least a minute. And even here the line of people suggests people have been entering and knowing about for at least another minute. Prior to 7:44 then, and probably by a few more minutes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:54, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Acknowledgment of the Incursion

The Rada (parliament) temporary investigative committee, in its September final report (see here for review), effectively dodges the issue of incursion with only this one vague statement (that I've found, searching the words for inside, building, etc.): "On the Kulikovo field representatives "Euromaidan" started to burn the tents and to commit unlawful acts against activists "Antimaidan" who blocked themselves in ( які заблокувалися у ) the House of trade unions." ^[10] Does this mean they went inside to harm people who had taken shelter there, or does it mean they attacked people who then ran inside? The latter option is widely repeated but inaccurate: nearly everyone was tucked away inside, invisibly, as the mob first arrived. The former option is true, and might be acknowledged here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:31, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The UN's investigators agreed someone vaguely on the Maidan side entered the building chasing after the people hiding there. "At around 8.00 p.m., the “Pro-Unity” activists entered the Trade Union Building where the “Pro-Federalism” supporters had sought refuge. " ^[2] As established, it was by 7:46 at the latest. The photographer and witness "Napaki" said the mob "continued storming the building, a few of them managed to get inside." ^[6] While that sounds like hostile intent, another photographer called "Tsvetkov" - who filmed the early break-in shown last above - had his own reading. In the cited video by "1612 No Comment," he recalled the broken door a very few people exited through but otherwise "nobody exited." As ACLOS translator Resup reanders it (see Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Videos#Tsvetkov Video), Tsvetkov says "some guys rushed into the building and started to hurl "фугасы " ( IED, bomb) molotov cocktails," after which the building was on fire. Still, "nobody exited from the front" while "from the sides, they entered and tried to rescue people." Maybe his short view looked that way, but we can see in the images above those look more like beating clubs than rescue clubs. The Guardian's anonymous Right Sector member - or its reporter Howard Amos - also made the break-in sound like a mercy operation. The report reads: "Pro-Ukraine protesters made desperate efforts to reach people with ropes and improvised scaffolding. "At first we broke through the side, and then we came through the main entrance," said one pro-Ukrainian fighter" who said he was a member of a group the same reporter heard was engaged that day in an effort "to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians]" - or as it happens, rescue them from self-inflicted fires? ^[8] --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Halya Coynash, pro-Kiev fingerpuppet, wrote in November of six-month protests over a massacre that "never was." All massacre claims were Russian propaganda, pro-Russians started it, accidents-and-stuff finished it. But she acknowledged that inside the building were members of both sides:

No murderous hordes ...Some ultras [football fans] and other pro-unity activists stormed the building from the left wing entrance brandishing shock pistols and similar. This resulted in some of the people inside fleeing to parts of the building which were later blocked by the flames.

But in another article on the "events of May 3," she mentions "a hunting rifle fired from the third floor of the Trade Union building, i.e. by pro-federalism activists." So it hasn't sunk in evenly... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:50, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Fire Relevance

Consider, now, how reports that put the mob outside the building and the fire starting inside, allowed to some decide the separatists - the only ones in there - must have burned themselves. of One argument is that they tried to throw molotov cocktails outside on the Miadan people, but the window didn't break. The BBC's report is the widest-seen example:

It remains unclear how the fire started on the third floor. Pictures clearly showed pro-Ukrainians throwing Molotov cocktails towards the floor. But Serhiy said he saw someone "on the third floor throw a Molotov cocktail through the closed window. However, the glass didn't break and a fire started inside".

Indeed, video shows this too. It comes out as the credible cause for the, or a, fire - on that floor. The fire-tossers outside are friends with some of the people inside. The same report, in fact, acknowledges this oddly: "There was hand-to-hand fighting in the building." Yeah, some epic fight. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Same concept covered on the fires page: Inside Fires Mean What? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Police at Kulikovo Field?

Do we know, from video, reports, anywhere, what the deal was with police at this locale? Earlier in the day the cops were all over protecting apparent pro-Russian hooligans with red armbands, even as they shot people with guns. But here, there were more such guys on the roof, an angry mob who showed up, and ... no cops at all that I've seen yet. They appear soon-ish, at least, and help carry away those jumping out of windows to escape the mob or the fire the mob started. But where were they when the mob might still have been kept out of the building? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:38, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Disturbingly, yes, police were there when the mob was there, roughly. From the UNHRC's June report:

43. Some “Pro-Unity” politicians called upon their supporters to march towards the Kulikovo Pole square. At 7.00 p.m., the “Pro-Unity” supporters marched in that direction, accompanied behind them by approximately 60 riot police.

They came with the mob, in the rear, not ahead of them. There was talk preceding the move, supposedly gotten to the tent camp by 6:300 or earlier that they'd better hid. But police just couldn't find any way to actually beat the crowd there?

44. The “Pro-Federalism” leaders were informed that “Pro-Unity” supporters were heading towards the tent camp, and between 6.00 – 6.30 p.m., they decided to take refuge in the nearby Trade Union Building.

45. At 7.30 p.m., when the “Pro-Unity” supporters reached Kulikovo Pole square [sic], they burned all the “Pro-Federalism” tents. ^[2]

I'm pretty confident they were there touching tents no later than about 7:15, for what it's worth. And 7:31 is a no-later-than for maybe something like 7:24. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Petro Zamakis followed the clashes and took a ton of widely-used photos. He explains at Kulikovo Field, "Pro-Ukrainians captured a pro-Russian activists and escort him to pass to the police. Police forces do not come to the square but do hide not far from the place." He shares a photo of them gathered nearby, with an officer that looks like Dmitri Fucheji (but wasn't he injured an unconnected to this?) ^[6] --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The photos included seem to follow the pro-Russian as he's escorted towards the cops - northeast across the paved square. This helps geo-locate the place where they gathered - just at the north corner of the square, near the giant pines, as as decided with Google Earth November 2013 imagery (inset). Over here, they're not exactly hiding, but not right in the open either, and certainly not stopping the massacre happening just meters away. The one man looks a little unhappy, and maybe threatening, to be seen by a good-quality camera. The officer next to him, giving spatial instructions to the riot cops looks quite a bit like Fucheji, though it's hard to be sure at such a distance. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: I probably did the graphic a bit wrong, on the camera and near wall end. Otherwise, that about where the police were. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

this video of 12:30 length shows a line of riot cops, maybe a bit after this, now deployed at the hall's north end. They stand there like a human wall, which people just walk around with no concern. At 0:21 Mikola Volkov walks on-screen, stick in hand, regards the cops, and walks behind them. This is followed by quiet shot-like pops they do nothing about. Someone shouts Slava Ukraina * at the same time. ~~This video starts after (apparent) sunset, likely as fire trucks first arrived at 8:09.~~ Only at the end (12 minutes later) do we hear sirens and see the fire trucks finally getting close enough to help. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Starts more like 8:00 - the one seen is second to arrive, ladder unit, around 8:10-8:15, unsure. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

(* Slava Ukraina is their way of saying Allahu Akbar) --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

An interesting view of the police line at the TU hall's north end can be found at 2:50 in this video by Right Sector supporter and approved documentor of the day's dead, Alex Rychkoff, lightened a bit for the still below. For those who don't know, those are the neo-Nazi "wolfsangel" and the white power "celtic cross." to the right off frame (not worth a composite view) is something like VK, or maybe yK (for Ukraine, Україна). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:46, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Arrest of the Borotba Entourage

At right is Alexi Albu - anti-Fascist regional deputy of the Rodina (Motherland) party, founder of activist group Borotba (struggle), and anti-Fascist candidate for mayor of Odessa. marching in connection with that campaign. He was badly beaten on May 2 at the House of Trade Unions and then fled to Crimea. Previously (see here), we considered an allegation d been seen "directing people into" the hall before the fire, which he reportedly denied, as if it were a crime (it was/would be a mistake, but...). And previously I wondered if he was even there or, when I saw him there, if he had come to the scene later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC) and Caustic Logic (talk) 12:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

But apparently he was there from the start and, leading role or not, Albu wound up with those inside. The first part is vague, but he was apparently at the day's demonstration there until the "Unity" rally drew near. He wound up with an entourage of people including his comrades Vladislav Wojieckowski and Andriy Brazhevksy ( Андрея Бражевского»), among others, inside on the third floor. Wojieckowski at least defended the decision to shelter inside (given what they knew and predicted then) Speaking to Yulia Poluhkin, a reporter from Russian Novaya Gazeta, he said: "The decision to shelter in the House of trade unions was common ... we were not going to leave." ^[7]

Wojieckowski summarizes what came next:

"I was on the third floor, we met first with Alexi Albu and Andrey Brazhevsky. We tried to go down to the basement, but the door was locked" ... On the first floor there was a cry: "They're in the building." We ran into another wing of the building, but there was already some gas sprayed there, making it impossible to be there. Then we discovered the "ultras". One of them shouted from the top floor, "Guys, they're here!" and they ran on us. With me was an old man, who threw one of the guys with a shovel, and I sprayed in their direction extinguisher, which is found in the building. Apparently, there was not very many, they ran away, and we began to break the glass and pull women on the visor (awning, above a door usually). Alexi and I got behind them. Only at this point we realized that we no longer had Andrey Brazhevsky with us."

Note: it's reported he fell right from the third floor but lived, only to be beaten to death (see Andrey Brazhevsky).

"When we got out, we met with Maidan self-defense, talked with them and went to the fence. At this time we were attacked by aggressive people. Hundreds tried to reassure them, but we were attacked at the so-called security corridor and they started beating us with valves," recalls Alexi Albu. According to Wojciechowski, the "security corridor" turned into a "corridor of shame". People forced him to crawl and he was beaten. ^[7] --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The video record bears this out. We can see the Borotba entourage, as it exited the building and talked to the attackers, in the Sergei Ivanov Video. This group of about 7 men can be seen gathered in the courtyard's north corner, just outside that exit. Most seem like defense people, armed with clubs, helmets, and at least three are wearing camouflage fatigues. The apparent leader (nickname "the captain," heavyset with mustache - 27:29) speaks for them. He and another man in camo are made to surrender a shoulder bag, a club, and clothing (27:40-28:00). Note the pot-bellied older man in a helmet and striped shirt (27:53). Alexi Albu (white shirt, 27:56) and Vlad (left - gray t-shirt, originally under a green hoodie they make him remove (27:30) - same clothing basically as in the march photo at top) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

At 21:36 in the Trassa E-95 News video, five women are escorted along the fence, led by apparent Maidan Self Defense commander "Boulder" (nickname, negotiable) and out the back gate. I had thought these were civilian workers, but noticing they're totally female, they're probably the women that Alexi mentioned escaping with them. They're not beaten or visibly soot-stained or anything, but are jeered as they walk out the gate down the "corridor of shame." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The same E-95 video shows Vlad and Alexi walking with other detainees across the courtyard towards the fence, looking accused and defensive (21:55).

They're with several others, and herded by Maidan security men. A blonde man in black with bandaged head screams at them. They move towards him and/or the camera, seem worried about his opinion, trying to explain. (Transcript, hopefully, right below ...)

Vlad, Alexi say, in agreement with one another: "we do not have any weapons" (Vlad), "calm down, calm down" (Alexi)--Resup (talk) 05:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

"Boulder" breaks it up by sternly hugging the angry guy as the others are prodded back towards the gate. (22:04) Along this way, the detainees are already being smacked around lightly (like a hit to the head with a construction helmet). At 22:12 some start punching and kicking the pot-bellied man. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

They reappear shortly. At 0:57 in this Odessa Channel 1 video (starting at 8:30:45 PM by title) Vladislav can be seen first deposited in an area where they're yelled at but not hit any longer, and where filming is allowed (several videos and many photos of this scene exist, one inset here, cropped on poor Vlad, who seems beaten worse than anyone). He arrives along with Alexi, both bleeding massively from thheir heads, mainly the back. Some people there immediately set to bandaging them. "The Captain" is visible, in better shape so far. At least one of his men (?) is bleeding badly from the head. (Another, in red shirt, behaves strangely and doesn't seem beaten - his thinness might have left him over-effected by the gas) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Two inserts: the dazed red-shirt guy was with Albu and crew as they walk out in the E-95 video (shirt off, around his neck at that time). More important to note is a guy not with them then but dumped in the same area after 8:30. Next to that red-shirt man is another in a white plaid shirt and blue jeans, with a bald head. He's not seen in the 203045 or 203354 stamped videos, but is there in the one from 203702 (8:37 PM) At 0:55 in that, he can be seen laying still, head tinted a bit purple. At 1:28 he's shaken by the Maidan guys who started wondering about him. A purple-gray hand flops free. They have the others move as they drag him away at 1:45. All but maybe one of the entourage seem oblivious to the apparent fact that this guy died as he laid there in the shaming pit (the guy in camo looking down in the his direction for some time might realize it). --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

In this other Channel 1 video starting at 8:46 PM, the entourage is seen being loaded in a police paddy wagon, passing through the mob that continues to grab and beat the brutalized victims, with others managing occasional reprieves that slowly lets them all get into the truck. One cop manages this from the door, holding the door and asking people not to kill anyone. At 1:09, Vlad makes it in, with a final whack from a helmet on the back of his bandaged and blood-soaked head (he suffered traumatic brain injury, reports say). A few people later and in the same bloody state, Alexi barely makes it in before the door closes. (1:20). Right behind him is "the captain," the last one to make it in. The cop opens the door again for him, but first he's knocked down (1:32) and stays down for some time, being hit and stomped by the crowd. An evil old woman (?) runs in and jabs a club down into him endwise as hard as she can, and some skinhead pushes her back for being excessive (1:52). Finally he's helped back up and in at 2:06. The door is shut (then opened again by the mob, and closed again) and the truck starts moving, slowly. I've seen the people pounding on the sides translated in another version as saying things like burn in hell, say hi to Putin, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of those people was dead before the doors opened again after all that abuse... All their assailants of course are left to mill around in freedom, wondering where they can find more people to hit. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

One who died, apparently: Considering the men in camouflage arrested with the Borotba team, a man seen later on in such clothing, no far from the arrest scene, completely dead, is of interest. Somewhere Resup has the dialog of one video giving "kill him!" to a Maidan person, as others chased after the guy in camo who just resisted arrest and ran back towards the building. Later that night, this Timer photo captures four corpses, faces covered. Two are people who fell from the windows we can see at a distance here, carried to about this spot shortly after. One wears two layers of camouflage gear, not a faller - he died some other way. Detailed match/mismatch maybe forthcoming. The 4th person, closest to the camera, might be a woman, likewise with an unknown manner of death. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Alex Albu account as presented in online "white book"

(in Russian) Спасённого из здания Алексея Албу избивали ногами, разбили голову. Он рассказывает: «Когда мы вылезли, мы попали во внутренний двор, там на нас начали нападать ультраправые, пожарный попытался нас вывести. Пришли несколько человек старших, как я понял, они не были футбольными фанатами, мужики уже под 40 лет, все были в военной форме, в бронежилетах, с оружием. Их было человека 3. Они стали кричать, чтобы все построились, стали срывать георгиевские ленточки с мужчин, которые были рядом со мной. Когда из внутреннего двора нас вывели, милиция сделала коридор, чтобы провести нас к автозакам. Но коридор был настолько широкий, что внутри этого коридора толпа била нас палками, арматурой, трубами, палками с какими-то крючками, у меня рука была вся в крови. …Пытался протиснуться, проползти под ногами, но какой-то мужик схватил меня за ногу, начал тащить и укусил меня за ногу, у меня до сих пор остались следы, уже месяц спустя.

Эти были не местные однозначно, потому что у них был характерный не одесский говор. А когда уже вылез, там стояли местные, они меня узнали, и начали добивать. Там мне голову и пробили. Но когда я упал, несколько милиционеров поставили свои щиты у меня над головой, за что я им очень благодарен, потому что если бы не они, может, нас бы уже не было. После этого нас бросили в одну кучу, где мы пролежали не помню сколько времени, может, 15 минут, может, 20, забинтовали головы. Были там очень сильно избитые люди, были кто поменьше. Это были те, кого били трубами и палками, когда они вырвались. Одному парню, я точно знаю, подбросили патроны. Он лежал без сознания, у него начали рыться по карманам и «нашли» патроны. Но в здании ни у кого огнестрельного оружия не было, тем более у этого человека, я его знаю лично, он не мог взять его в руки даже теоретически».

Rescued from the building Alexei Albu was kicked, his head smashed . He says: "When we got out, we got into the courtyard, and the ultras, the extreme right, began to attack us, a firefighter tried to let us through. Than a few senior people came over, as I understood, they were not football fans, guys already under 40 years old, were all in uniform, wearing body armor, with weapons. There were about 3. They began to shout demanding that we all line up, tear off St George ribbons from the men who were with me. When we were taken out of the courtyard , the police made a corridor to hold us to the police paddy wagon. But the corridor was so wide that within this corridor crowd beat us with sticks, steel bars, pipes, sticks with some hooks; my hand was all covered in blood. ... I was trying to squeeze, crawl under their feet, but some guy grabbed me by the leg, began to drag me, and bit my leg, I still have the marks, already a month later.

These were not local unequivocally, because they had not characteristic of Odessa way of speaking. And when it came out, there were locals there, they recognized me, and began to finish off. That was when my skull was fractured. But when I fell, several police officers put their shields over my head, for which I am very grateful to them, because if they did not, maybe I would not be around any longer. After that, we were thrown together in a heap, where we lay, I do not remember how long, maybe 15 minutes, maybe 20, and bandaged our heads. There were very badly beaten people, and those less so. They were the ones who were beaten with sticks and pipes when they tried to escaped. One guy had ammunition planted on him, I know for sure. He was unconscious, they began to rummage through his pockets and "found" bullets. But in the building, nobody had firearms, especially this man, I know him personally, he could not take bear arms, even theoretically"

Eventually, Alex Albu, a regional "Sovet/Rada" (legislature) deputy, escaped Ukraine. --Resup (talk) 05:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

...following the safe path laid by people who escaped before him, and took Crimea with them. (he went to Crimea and since then, can continue speaking freely. In contrast...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:18, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Vlad Wojieckowski After his ordeal, Vlad was re-arrested by SBU on 13 September. It is said that the Right Sector participated in the arrest and Vlad was beaten another time. (talk) 05:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

This is given as the 13th and also the night of the 12th (same thing), so his last interview apparently was on Sept. 12. In what might be the immediate trigger, Vlad and his girlfirend met openly with Russian "Left Front" activist-journalist Alexei Sakhnin in Odessa and spoke freely, in public. (see here) He .relates the "several weeks" spent in jail following his arrest May 2 on charges of surviving, and how "all summer he kept receiving conscription notices, which ended when he made it very clear to them he wasn't going. He says the anti-Maidan movement in Odessa ceased because it had been crushed. He took Alexi to a Lenin statue outside town now covered with Nazi graffiti. But it was "in a relatively busy café" where

"Vlad loudly tells me about himself, curses the authorities and their supporters. I ask if he is not afraid to talk about this in public. “What will they do to me?” – he replies to my question with another question. “This is my city,” – his girlfriend says, – “why should I stay silent?”

(Maybe, because there are snitches and spies everywhere in Odessa, especially where you two go?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:18, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

That same night, while I was asleep in my train carriage, Vlad was arrested. ... ... I find it strange that a person who is plotting to blow up the SBU spends half a day with a journalist, loudly proclaims his oppositionist views in a café, and leads trips to the statue of Lenin. I do not, however, find it strange that in Odessa the witnesses at the search of an opposition activist’s flat are the same people who beat him four months ago during the Trade Union House massacre. ... Free Vlad Wojciechowski!

(says the guy who probably delivered the weapons, according to Kiev... I'm guessing they might say this) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:18, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Police charged?

Something weird is happening:

Case militia that helped the May massacre in Odessa, went to court – Crime.in.UA, 11.03.2014

General Prosecutor's Office sent to the court an indictment against three former employees of Interior Ministry of Ukraine in Odessa region, which contributed to the illegal release of detained participants of mass riots in Odessa on 2 May.

Who was arrested? Who was released? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Most likely, it's old news: Those arrested were Kulikovo activists, arrest was for their protection. When other pro-Kulikovo people gathered trying to have them released, Dmitriy Fuchedji released them, and was in trouble for that pretty immedeately. His boss, Petr Lutsiuk, was also fired (May 3). So indictment is likely against Fuchedji, Lutsiuk, and somebody else. Fuchedji photo is shown in the news article. --Resup (talk) 04:27, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Police Possibilities

Everyone wants to know what the hell was up with the police that day. This is sort of confusing to me, or maybe I just got myself confused. First, I sort of ignored the previous talk and just focused on what we can see, so far. There seems to be no police intervention to stop the culmination of the day's tensions at the Trade Union Hall. For about an hour, perhaps, it was a free-for-all there. But 3 hours before, as we can see in the clashes analysis below, the supposed anti-Maidan thugs were actively protected by the police as they shot people and provoked the tensions. Structurally, it seems the police were on the side of the tension and raising it. The beneficiaries of the massacre this tension caused was the Kiev government seeking to kill all talk of separation on Odessa. It did stop right after this.

Focusing first just on the early part where the cops were shielding the provocateurs, there are 3 main possibilities here for what the police were thinking at the time (possibly in some combination):

They knew what they were doing: the widespread assumption of anti-Maidan thinkers seems likely; the police here were secretly pro-Kiev, acting pro-separatist, protecting Right Sector types in costume, to sow the rancor and then later, let it run its "natural" course.
They were fooled: they were genuinely anti-Maidan/pro-Russia/whatever and thought the local anti-Fascists should be allowed to shoot at the other side. There's some support for this, actually
No tricks: They really were protecting anti-Maidan militants: The provocateurs themselves were genuine anti-Maidan/pro-Russia/whatever and just stupidly set up the perfect provocation themselves (with police protection, withdrawn later for whatever reason...) There's even some evidence for this version.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

They Knew

I've been working from, making a case for, this already, mainly looking at the other two ATM. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

They Were Fooled

Arguably anti-Junta police, not yet Kiev appointees, would complicate the scene for plots like these. Odessa's police chief Lutsyuk was vocally opposed to ultranationalist mobs, at least, well before the day, and was fired immediately after the massacre for failing to stop the pro-Russians (see here, to be expanded). No sign he was on the scene and involved - he could be just worked around somehow with right-wing cops put in charge of the streets that day.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Supposed pro-Russia thug with gun, and looking on behind him ...

... Dmitri Fucheji, top cop on the scene, in the first part of the day...

...and perhaps at dusk, on Kolukivo Field - NOT protecting pro-Russians any more.

But his deputy Dmitri Fucheji was apparently right there, looking the other way - or famously the same way - as the red-armbands pointed pistols around. The ID from that (Reuters) photo isn't so clear, but other footage looks just like him too (inset, below). Like his boss, he too appears to be anti-Maidan/pro-Russia/whatever. Later, he fled to Transnistria (pro-Russian part of Moldova) and spoke to Russian media (see video.

NTV video

(F) basically says that everything was in place for the sides to clash, and cops were called for a 3.5 meeting and told to switch their cell phones off. So he arrived late when clashes were well underway. He implies that everything was pre-planned, and people were used for a desired outcome (soft hint it is somewhere well on top) . NTV channel interviewing him used to be opposition channel in Russia at some point in the past, no idea about now. I would not put much trust in any TV presentation anyway, but I'd consider what Fucheji says as a witness account. --Resup (talk) 12:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if he's just guessing, or has some specific info to back it. Police sometimes have clues, but he doesn't explain and so it seems it could all be guesswork. And yes, things people say with words can always be untrue, so trust is best doled out in small bits only. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, this is a bit tricky video, only parts of his actual words are given, a lot is narrator speaking (Alexander Dolgih, NTV) who in the end says they do not publish everything, and that in what is not published, concrete names and details about provocation given. Still what is being said by (F) him himself clearly communicates that he feels it was set up, a provocation. He discussed that there was pressure to remove pro-Russian protesters camp, but in Odessa (the one it used to be) it was impossible by police method. He talks about governor going to see his Kiev bosses, and shortly after Parubiy comes to Odessa.

2: 02 (F) Parubii with his people, who arrived to Odessa realized the plan which they had in advance, and the outcome is clear

(4:53 ) we are shown and told that Andrey Parubiy came to Odessa in the end of April, brought with him few dozen level-5 protection body armor, and shaken hands with Mikhola (who will shoot at protesters in the building later)

6 :53 (F) uses word provocation; part of provocation is to keep police at the long meeting)

7:06 we are shown some people shooting, and told by narrator that (F) considers this provocation set in advance , and neither Pravyi Sector, nor the football fans, knew about it in advance

7:17 (F) I think they just used Chernomorets fans, who were in the dark (initially fans stayed put, no marching was planned)

8:09 (F) somebody was was manipulating Parubiy, well, I think it was like that ( a guess is made it may go to the top, but he is not sure)

(10.27) Narrator: police evacuated over 50 protesters from the building, and arrested in effect saving them from lynching (F) we were busi with this till 3.30 pm, they did not want to go down from the roof themselves. They did not believe there is no Right Sector below, that police will be able to protect them, and so on.

11:03 (F, describing attempt by Kiev to place blame on him immediately ) They did not ask about how many were killed. Yarema asked, have you seen that your policeman had red armbands? Oh well, no, I did not notice, it was a battle over there

11:30 Narrator: pro-Russia protesters tried to free those arrested; (F) either weapons have to be used, or those arrested released (narrator) so they were released (F) later says he did the right thing having them released, based on information at that time

13:00 Narrator: "(F) will never shoot at his own people" "F: authorities come and go, we need to live in the city; this is my city, and my country" (said with strong conviction)

It will be better to have full recording, not the NTV interview with narrator and (F) together; but those bits seems to be coherent anyway .--Resup (talk) 00:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Via Antimaydan Odessa on VK, he blames Tymoshenko's deputy Dubogovo and his deputy who "secretly" ran the police and issued "instructions not to intervene, as well as to collect all the police leadership to "meeting" and discuss common issues behind closed doors with mobile phones switched off." That would put some people out of the loop. That would be Lutsyuk, and perhaps Fucheji himself, as these jackasses decided in calling him a liar. But as the VK post says:

Fuchedzhi claims he is one of the entire leadership of the Odessa Police was May 2 not in the office and on the street with people and tried to stop the violence, negotiated, tried to reconcile the conflicting parties. In addition, he reminded of the duty to other policemen who were inactive on orders from above. In response, he heard: "Orders are orders, Lutsyuk ordered not to interfere with him, and there is no connection." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

One source, sounding generally informed, implicates Fucheli for running the Kiev provocation, but makes a point for his being a hundrance to the plot and, like others, removed from the field: However, this is a good space for anything on this, like this I just found:

The role of the Odessa police forces in the operation was personally directed by the head of the regional police, Petr Lutsyuk, and his deputy Dmitry Fucheji. Lutsyuk was assigned the task of neutralizing Odessa’s regional governor, Vladimir Nemirovsky, to prevent him from putting together an independent strategy that could disrupt the operation. Fucheji led the militants right to Greek Square where he was allegedly “wounded” (in order to evade responsibility for subsequent events). (Bloodbath in Odessa guided by interim rulers of Ukraine Oriental Review, May 14])

Or was he simply wounded by a shooter who didn't like his attitude, and should be considered off the hook for what came next? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I guess no one said he was shot, just injured. On the other hand, the third thumbnail at right shows a commanding officer near the burning and invaded Trade Union Hall after sunset, again looking a bit like him, as his police stand idly by in a different way. Maybe he was shot right after this by the same guy who shot Mikola Volkov? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC).

No Tricks

It's possible these were real anti-Maidan "self-defense" militias, supported by the police in the same way as outlined above, but with no trickery involved. For example, the leader of local anti-Fascist group Borotba claims at least some of the people in red armbands (he implies all of them, but not specifically) were Borotba members or perhaps allied (See above #Real Borotba Members?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

However, in my opinion, that doesn't come close to explaining how well the most visible and active parties wound up working into Kiev's plot to crush Odessa's independence movement that day with a provoked massacre. I think it's most likely the real counter-protest was hijacked by agents from the other side working in costumes and always taking the lead and misusing it towards just the end it all had. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Fuchedji

Vladimir Suchan makes some claims against Dmitry Fuchedji.

The Odessa Massacre and the Silence of the Lambs – September 30, 2014

One of the main organizers of the Odessa massacre, Dmitry Fuchedji, the then deputy chief of the police for the Odessa region (many remember him from the videos where he was seen organizing the Nazi thugs and coordinating their actions with the police) gave an interview to a Russian reporter for Russia's 1st TV Channel

I remember no such thing! Everyone in Odessa knew he was coordinating the actions of Borotba members and other antifascist resistance with the police. Everyone knew who they were and on which side they were on. If they were violent it may be because Borotba was originally part of Maidan. I have dismissed the Russian claims as totally unfounded. People who do not do proper investigation tend to make such claims. The truth may however be deeper. It is possible that real agent provocateurs were implanted into the Borotba ranks, but that is a totally separate issue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:29, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Fucheji comes across as anti-Kiev/pro-Russia, protecting the red-armband people and fleeing to Trasdnistria, so ostensibly, as you say "Everyone knew who they were and on which side they were on." That's what the Maidan people presumed, as these supposed Borotba guys fired on them with guns. Problem is, the people he helped protect, at least by inaction they took best advantage of, were the provocateurs who set up the massacre (like the police help served to justify the following purge of "pro-Russia" police). IMO that should have been pretty obvious, and ideally worked against. How much control he could have to stop it if he wanted, not sure. A the TUH as well, he oversaw a police passivity one side took advantage of, and this clearly went strongly against coordinating any self-defense for the federalists. I wonder if he's just been play-acting as pro-Russia and knowingly set up the provocation, but it seems more likely he was just maneuvered into this inaction somehow. I consider it a mystery, and agree that easy blaming like that is worth calling out. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:26, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

For consideration, his submission to the Rada investigation, supposedly complete, mostly referring to the release of massacre survivors arrested at the end of May 2 (Google-translated here with some refinement, mostly on names):

The written explanations Fuchedzhy DV from 05.28.2014 year that have been sent to the Temporary Investigative Commission reads as follows: (original language)(Russian -ed)

"May 4 at about 3 pm near the municipal government were about 2.5 thousand. Persons for the release of detainees, none of the leaders of the Ministry of Interior did not want to take decisions.

(Militant protesters) stormed the building and I was forced to leave, the management refused to accept the decision.

Upon arrival (str. Transfiguration, 44) people were in the yard and smashed trucks and tried to break the door and the duty of the police department. I began to talk to my mind with the leaders there that I identified visually. In order to exclude the acquisition of arms, I called Glaucus Chebotar SI ( Главк  Чеботарь С.И ) did not take the phone, I called Borshulyaku II ( Боршуляку И.И. ) he did not answer, then I decided to release the detainees in order to exclude the possibility of taking possession of a weapon.

I knew that if the shooting starts in urban governance, near gorupravleniya are leaving about 4-5 minibuses with the right sector and none of the buildings would not have gone. They are just that and waited.

I returned to Glaucus and reported Deputy Chebotarev SI, in the office of the chief were about 4 people from the Interior Ministry. He replied that he did the right thing ...

Events took place ... 02/05/2014 was made possible with the help of the governor Nemirovsky VL because he brought, financed, fed and put about 500 people to the Maidan in Kiev. They were placed on the block positions, and took an active part in the dispersal of the Kulikovo field. The governor has repeatedly demanded from the leadership of Glaucus clean up a tent camp by the police. That was refused, and (Nemirovsky?) agreed with the Acting President Turchynov, attracted forces controlled by Parubiy. What has been and done. "

--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

indeed, wounded in the midst of events, before Kulikovo...

...with no change of shirt handy.

Very interesting effort to put the blame on the early clashes, caused by police inaction, and particularly to blame Fuchedji, who "warrants separate attention ... disappeared after the tragedy and was placed on the wanted list." "Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group" alerts us of the Dangerous silence over police role in Odessa May 2 events:

"It is critical to understand what happened earlier in the day, and why the Action Plan [named Khvylya or in Russian, Volna – ‘Wave’] was signed, but then not registered, and not carried out. If the confrontation during the afternoon had been brought under control, the fire which claimed the lives of 42 people would not have happened.''

"If" a few other factors as well it wouldn't have happened, but this is the pro-Kiev "they started it" only point worth making, and "Any uncertainty only helps the Russian media to push their ‘fascist massacre’ narrative." The action plan angle is new to me, and interesting. What else is interesting is their details on Fuchedji's injury, implicitly fake (to allow him to leave the scene? Because he comes right back to it later) Cites this video at 1:38, credited to Sergei Dibrov but stamped LIFE.

At 17.55 Fuchedzhy received a slight injury to his hand, but the ambulance doctor insisted that he needed to be evacuated. Dibrov’s footage shows a man opening the door, apparently for Fuchedzhy, but then quickly closing it as the camera appears. Dibrov explained at the press conference why he is in no doubt that the man inside was Vitaly Budko, a pro-federalist known as ‘Botsman’ who is clearly visible in other footage shooting at pro-unity activists. A second video from another source shows Fuchedzhy obviously recognizing and nodding to a person in the ambulance before getting in. A police officer who has been wounded and is in intense pain is being supported on his feet by two colleagues, but the ambulance does not take him.

Because, it looks to me, like he nods to them to signal he's okay and doesn't need an ambulance. Because it's "a slight injury to his hand," or actually right forearm. In support of fakery, the same video shows other injured police being evacuated (after getting shot by the same pro-Russia thugs helping evacuate them?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

There is another video (sorry if it was analysed elsewhere already), which appear to show Fuchedji and armed masked men and a guy in a suit to be cozy with each other staring at (1:12) . Different viewpoint from HRW video. --Resup (talk) 03:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Even if it were covered elsewhere (not that I know of) it fits here obviously. So the guy identified in the ambulance is the fat guy seen shooting, or very similar, named as "Vitaly Budko, a pro-federalist known as ‘Botsman’." * He's one of those I consider pretty obvious provocateurs, the only one seen shooting an automatic rifle. Doesn't look good, but as I've said, I'm not confident that video has the real story. For one, he didn't "flee the scene" for long. The injury looks serious (sleeve thoroughly bloodied), but he first tries to deny the ride, then gets in the ambulance at the paramedic's urging and goes. As he explains in a recent interview, he then returned to the clash area, which was Kulikovo Field by that time. From the German translation CE provided:

I didn't want to go to the hospital. I was in the ambulance with her, because the blood could not be stopped. The Sleeve was all blood, you could get the vein see, the tendon was broken, because the bullet went through. I'm gone, I no longer have directed."

QUESTION: “Who has directed?”

ANSWER: “Lutsjuk Peter Sergeewitsch.”

...After that I'm back, but the Kulikowo field was burning, and we waited for the fire trucks.'

So, he was absent for the key part... it remains mysterious, and I can still see why he gets blame and hate from both sides, deserved or not.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

And how did they ID this "Botsman" when he's always wearing a ski mask? Do they get a glimpse of his face, or is it a consistent flab ID? Any answers to that anyone stumbles across can go below. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

For the record, the Kharkiv "human Rights" article is mixed-up on the videos. The one stamped LIFE is not from Dibrov, unless he was filming from two spots at once. It's the other scene, used in "What really happened" that he filmed. Original, about 2:40 into this 58-minute video by "Mr. Dibrov". --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

first channel interview

(5:32) when fire track was taken, is the time when Fuchedji was wounded. He stayed there for about 20 minutes after that. Than taken by ambulance. He returned back when Kulikovo Field was on fire. We waited for the fire track, it was not coming, and so there was no ladder to reach the floors

(6:05) Q: did you try to keep being in charge, by phone, when at the hospital? A: You see, initially, I was in charge. Then, when plan HVYLIA (see spec op subsection) was introduced, mass disturbances, I was no longer in the lead ("faded into the background"). There is the initial leader, and somebody who does the rest...I did not want to go to the hospital.. but wound touched the vein , tendon shot through ...when I went to the hospital, I was no longer in control...(6:41) and who was in control?A Lutsjuk Peter Sergeewitsch--Resup (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The 20-minute part is contested. The KHR article says he was injured about 5:55, and that agrees with Dibrov's video (maybe their source: He's seen wounded at 2:40 into a video starting at 5:54, by title. I'm not sure how the sniper timeline lines up, but the number of fresh injuries seen at that time suggests the main part was shortly before this, not 20 minutes before. OTH, he suggests he was shot around 7:35 instead. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Odessa May 2 Massacre VS12 - Deputy Fuchedji Injured Correlates the two views. The supposedly "Botsman" seems over-eager to be seen getting Fucheji in the same ambulance with him. Later footage shows frustration in communications, someone hurling anger at him related to what's happening in the flaming hall. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

conversation in the very end by the burning building:

a man: so, do you like it (sarcastically) Fuchedji (dull/tired voice ) yeah

a man: that's what you expected? With all your inaction? Fuchedji (kind of surprised a bit)(Me?) I did not expect anything --Resup (talk) 05:05, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Lutsiuk

Петр Луцюк (Petr Lutsiuk) (alt: Петра Луцюка, Peter/Petro Lutsyuk/Lutsyuka) (often auto translates Suzuka)

Background: Odessa regional council deputies Alexey Albu and Viacheslav Markin are planning (as of 19.04) an appeal to Rada on special status to Odessa region, and consider 'no-confidence' motion against Governor Nemirovskii (no info as of 19.04 whether plans actually realized )

Lutsiuk is asking to remove weapons from Odessa, 24.04. 2014, opposing the line of Governor Nemirovskii.

Petr Lutsiuk was militsia (police) chief of Odessa region as of 02.05.2014.

Update on various participants 06.05.2014 (Mikola is now all of the following: "killed," "separatist," "Vitalii Bud'ko (Виталий Будько)", "Botzman," "arrested" and than "released"). (Uffff. If somebody can decipher this "news", please make an entry).

20.5.14 Lutsiuk "cannot be found" . And? Was he eventually found? --Resup (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't cite the details ATM, but my impression was he turned up and talked to the commission later. The May 2 Group recently put him (along with Nemirovsky and Dobogov) in a small group of people (not including fugitive Fuchedji) that should be asked to explain and settle some controversy. Like others, he was fired on 4 May after the release of the pro-federalists. The various people update I'll look at soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:05, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Nemirovskii

Nemirovskii (Немировский, Владимир Леонидович). Appointed Governor of Odessa Region, 3 March 2014; fired 6 May 2014 (both by Turchinov decree). Replaced by Igor Palitsa (Палица, Игорь Петрович) = Ihor Palytsia.

Governor Nemirovskii message was broadcasted 02.05.2014 on 1TV Odessa; we have discussed this elsewhere. Now it appears that somebody has re-posted this message very recently, under his name and photograph avatar, and followed by a paragraph saying that the role of militsia (police) shall be discussed separately after the situation is stabilized.

http://pikabu.ru/ (No clue what pikabu.ru is ...) --Resup (talk) 17:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Subtle difference, compared to 02.05 broadcast, is that the word "any" is now dropped, in describing actions against "terrorists" which are considered legal --Resup (talk) 18:08, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There is some vk link provided http://vk.com/feed?w=wall-40199630_1055758 , I am not using vk, and don't know what is there --Resup (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

twitter link--it's there (without "any"). Follow-up commentary is strongly negative.

19 May quote "...Временная следственная комиссия Верховной Рады по трагическим событиям 2 мая сегодня проведет закрытое заседание в Одессе. Мы слышим очень много версий произошедшего: руководители МВД с разницей в несколько дней делают сенсационные заявления, причем кардинально отличающиеся друг от друга. СБУ утверждает нечто свое. Прокуратура - свое. СНБО - противоположное. Когда я еще находился на должности руководителя Области, силовики вообще имели совершенно другую версию событий.

Депутаты Верховной Рады - не профессиональные следователи, но именно они, вероятно, сформируют окончательную политическую оценку тому, с чем столкнулась Одесса. Летят камни, летят пули, летят коктейли "Молотова". Люди гибнут от ранений, от огня, выпрыгивают из окон. Вся страна смотрит, плачет. Ты то на месте событий, то снова возвращаешься в штаб. Мечешься. У тебя большой кабинет, большая табличка на двери, но на самом деле ты практически ничего не можешь. Милиционеры - продали родину, прокуроры - продали совесть, спецслужбы - работают вообще неизвестно на кого. Чувство полнейшего бессилия на фоне чувства безумной ответственность по тягостности нельзя сравнить ни с одним другим. Поэтому я не могу быть объективным. Может позже, но не сегодня.

"Police sold their motherland, prosecuting attorneys sold their conscience , special services are working for--who knows for whom"

При этом, верю - общественное расследование не менее важно, чем расследование юридическое. Оно должно быть открытым, публичным, глубоким.

"public investigation is not less important than judicial one. It should be open, public, and deep".

.--Resup (talk) 18:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I did not hear that he was fired right after. That's a twist, and I wonder what the given reason was. Cited for that, president's office "In accordance with articles 112 and 118 of the Constitution of Ukraine, I decree: Release (dismiss) NEMIROVSKY Vladimir Leonidovich from the post of Chairman of the Odessa regional state administration." No reason given. I also didn't know Nemirovskiy translated "vampireville." This plus his call for open investigation could almost make it seem he'd turned around in disgust at the operation and was then fired. But could just be that he'd done his dirty work and could be dismissed (depending how useful his replacement was, might be even better for Kiev's terror machine that did continue existing until today). And his words about open investigation sound good. Politician types are good at that kind of thing, especially when insincere (very often). --Caustic Logic (talk) 21:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Volna and other Spec Ops

We mentioned Volna couple of times already, in relation to Gennady Moskal and Maidan. It may be not the final place for this but I'll have it here for now, please move if there is more appropriate place. There is a bit on Soviet spec. ops. English, and more details on Moskal site, in Ukrainian, which includes:

— Інформацію про спецоперації мені надали патріотично налаштовані високопоставлені офіцери з МВС, і я повідомив про них (вказавши напрямки, звідки починатиметься зачистка) ще 27 січня. Новина розійшлася по багатьох ЗМІ, однак у таборі мітингувальників до неї поставилися скептично — мовляв, Москаль розповсюджує всякі страшилки. А владу розкриті плани вже не могли зупинити. "Хвиля" й "Бумеранг" розроблялися ще за радянських часів. Першу спецоперацію готувало МВС для протидії масовим безпорядкам, а другу — СБУ як антитерористичну. За роки незалежності України "Хвилю" застосовували тільки раз — у 2007р. на Ай-Петрі, коли Могильов зносив самовільні будови кримських татар (до речі, ці дії досі так і не отримали юридичної оцінки). "Бумеранг" не застосовувався жодного разу. "Привід" з'явився лише тепер — акції протесту проти Януковича. Проведенню обох спецоперацій передувала спеціальна підготовка. Переодягнені працівники СБУ під виглядом мітингувальнків, до котрих долучилися й справжні учасники акцій протесту, підпалили офіс Партії регіонів, внаслідок чого загинуло двоє людей (офіс належав нардепу Смітюху, який кілька разів публічно висловлював незгоду з діями влади, тому нищити його майно було не шкода). Водночас снайпери отримали вказівку розстрілювати не тільки протестантів, а й міліціонерів. Усе робилося для ескалації конфлікту, щоб виправдати силову зачистку Євромайдану. Одразу після цього з'явилися гнівні заклики до президента від обласних рад Сходу, Півдня та Криму з вимогами вжити рішучих заходів, діяти жорстко і т.д. Тобто ці речі були взаємопов'язані й чітко сплановані.

- Translation: Information about the raid gave me patriotic senior officers of the Interior Ministry, and I passed on the information (indicating areas where "clean-up" starts ) on 27 January. The news spread in many media, but protesters camp were skeptical - they said Moskal circulate some horror stories . But the disclosure could not stop the authorities already. "Wave" and "Boomerang" were developed during the Soviet era. The first special operation was prepared by MIA (ministry of internal affairs=police) to deal with mass disturbances, and the second by SBU as counter-terrorism. Since Ukraine independence, "wave" was used only once - in 2007. Ai-Petri, when Mogilev demolished unauthorized structures Crimean Tatars (by the way, these actions still have not received legal assessment). "Boomerang" was not used even once. "Хвиля" ("hvylia") ("Drive") appeared only now - in protests against Yanukovych. In both cases, conducting special operations was preceded by special training. SBU, dressed in the guise of protesters and mixing up with the real protesters, set fire to the office of the Party of Regions, thus killing two people (office belonged to MPs Smityuh that several times publicly expressed disagreement with the authorities, so no regret in destroying his property) . However snipers were instructed to shoot not only Protesters but also police officers. Everything was done for escalation of conflict to justify "clean-up" of Euroaidan by force. After that there were angry calls to the President from the regional councils of the East, the South and the Crimea with the requirements to take decisive action to act tough, etc. That is, these things are interconnected and well-planned.

(I have not seen more detailed information, maybe human rights contacts may provide such)? --Resup (talk) 01:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting piece, possibly useful details, but needing some grains of salt, obviously. He says the mob attack on the Regions HQ was an inside job by Regions agents or SBU-type agents (or were they Spetsnaz like the snipers?),

He says it was done by SBU agents. He is himself basically a cop, and saying something like this is exceptional. It is very rare, East or West, that any structure or community finds that it is itself to blame. In huge majority of cases, they will fight to prove there is somebody else to blame. His colleagues were not pleased at all with this. But now, he is governor of Ukrainian part of Luhansk, and clearly he has at least some respect in Novorossia (Sharia interview presenter on Anna News said he always been friends with him). Grain of salt needed everywhere of course. For example, if a top official run away, it is likely that it was precisely him to give ultimate order, etc. --Resup (talk) 11:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

picking off a guy they didn't like anyway just to blame the "protesters" who had no hand in it, just like the other murky murders, mystery snipers, etc. Clearly ludicrous, so his talk of the "plans" these villains moved by means nothing, in context. If you mean details about the Maidan violence and especially snipers, of course the main page Ukraine 2014 and its talkie are the vaguely-named places for all that. (Regions attack, not so well covered - I only heard of one victim, an IT worker, who died there, and no background on his disposability) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Some talk of the plans used or not by the police are given by Lt. Dmitry Fuchedji, in his September interview. The translation (Russian-German-English, isn't yet worth posting. There was a plan "Chwylja” as it comes out, that was cancelled at one point in favor of "the second plan." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

People reported to be very afraid

Anatalolii Sharii (who is in Europe, and made many recordings for Novorossia media , and now has his yuotube channel removed), gave an interview to Anna News, reporting that thinking people in (pro-Kiev) Ukraine are very afraid for their lives, and Odessa is the worst in that regard. (For example, soldiers mothers giving interviews, and having their faces and voices obscured, in the end of the day ask not to publish interviews,etc --people fear for their lives, not just change their minds to be interviewed ). He seems a bright guy, may be good to be in contact. Stuff in recent Odessa videos is clearly strikingly off and not how it is supposed to be in Odessa. --Resup (talk) 01:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Some channel deletions are warranted, on copyright grounds. Anatoly had some original stuff (unless I'm confusing him with someone else) he should get back up. Bumped into his name a few times, seems a smart guy guy and possibly able to contact. Thanks for the tips. This Pravi-Sector "militia" was a problem before and after its big party day. I've only seen a bit of the Odessa situation since, but terrorism of the type needed to keep that town in check will not be an overnight thing. It was into the days at least that survivors and people in their seized contact books were reportedly tracked down and murdered. (details not handy or sorted, don't quote me on that yet...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

References

↑ 2 May 2014 Odessa clashes Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. accessed when "page was last modified on 22 August 2014 at 14:35."
↑ ^2.0 ^2.1 ^2.2 ^2.3 ^2.4 http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf June 15, 2014
↑ ^3.0 ^3.1 ^3.2 http://rt.com/news/179236-ukraine-odessa-fire-response/ RT Aug 9, 2014
↑ Genocide in Novorossia and swan song of Ukrainian statehood Oriental Review, May 6, 2014
↑ ^5.0 ^5.1 Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named GGur
↑ ^6.0 ^6.1 ^6.2 ^6.3 ^6.4 ^6.5 ^6.6 Photo Chronicles of Clashes in Odessa, May 2 Photoss and observations by PETRO ZAMAKIS (Napaki) MAY 8, 2014
↑ ^7.0 ^7.1 ^7.2 "Капкан для двоих" ("The trap for two") By Юлия Полухина (Julia Polukhin), Novaya Gazeta, July 2, 2014.
↑ ^8.0 ^8.1 Ukraine clashes: dozens dead after Odessa building fireHoward Amos, The Guardia, May 2, 2014
↑ "Капкан для двоих" ("The trap for two") By Юлия Полухина (Julia Polukhin), Novaya Gazeta, July 2, 2014.
↑ ЗВІТ Тимчасової слідчої комісії Верховної Ради України з питань розслідування фактів загибелі громадян у містах Одесі, Маріуполі, а також в інших містах Донецької та Луганської областей України (REPORT (of the) Temporary investigative Commission of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on the investigation into the death of citizens in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol, and also in other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine) Official Version, dated September 5, released September 8, 2014. Direct .RTF download link: Додаток (1) 05.09.2014 As cited here, translated with Google or Yandex translate, with improvements.

[Wikipedia-1] 2 May 2014 Odessa clashes Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. accessed when "page was last modified on 22 August 2014 at 14:35."

[UNH-2] 2.0 ^2.1 ^2.2 ^2.3 ^2.4 http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf June 15, 2014

[RTLC-3] 3.0 ^3.1 ^3.2 http://rt.com/news/179236-ukraine-odessa-fire-response/ RT Aug 9, 2014

[OR1-4] Genocide in Novorossia and swan song of Ukrainian statehood Oriental Review, May 6, 2014

[GGur-5] 5.0 ^5.1 Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named GGur

[PZ-6] 6.0 ^6.1 ^6.2 ^6.3 ^6.4 ^6.5 ^6.6 Photo Chronicles of Clashes in Odessa, May 2 Photoss and observations by PETRO ZAMAKIS (Napaki) MAY 8, 2014

[JP2-7] 7.0 ^7.1 ^7.2 "Капкан для двоих" ("The trap for two") By Юлия Полухина (Julia Polukhin), Novaya Gazeta, July 2, 2014.

[Amos1-8] 8.0 ^8.1 Ukraine clashes: dozens dead after Odessa building fireHoward Amos, The Guardia, May 2, 2014

[JP1-9] "Капкан для двоих" ("The trap for two") By Юлия Полухина (Julia Polukhin), Novaya Gazeta, July 2, 2014.

[Rada_Report-10] ЗВІТ Тимчасової слідчої комісії Верховної Ради України з питань розслідування фактів загибелі громадян у містах Одесі, Маріуполі, а також в інших містах Донецької та Луганської областей України (REPORT (of the) Temporary investigative Commission of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on the investigation into the death of citizens in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol, and also in other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine) Official Version, dated September 5, released September 8, 2014. Direct .RTF download link: Додаток (1) 05.09.2014 As cited here, translated with Google or Yandex translate, with improvements.

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