Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/SBU Audio Evidence

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See also Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Cyber Berkut leak

Audio Evidence Releases

MH17 SBU Audio still.png
In the hours and days just after the crash of MH17, the Ukrainian security agency SBU famously released a string of purported audio intercepts of separatists talking about their deployment of anti-aircraft systems and about their shooting down of a civilian airliner. These were made into Youtube videos with the supposed speakers shown, with translated text, and purported time-stamps (a still is inset at right). The authenticity of the recording has been questioned, but they haven't yet been proven yet to be either legitimate or fake, and merit some more scrutiny.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The hoax pops up again in the Dutch investigation: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

A highly placed rebel officer told the AP in an interview after the disaster that the plane was shot down by a mixed team of rebels and Russian military personnel who believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military plane. Intercepted phone conversations between the rebels released by the Ukrainian government support that version of events.

Fakery Claims

Posted A Day Too Early?

(moved from SBU wiretap video) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The video of audio recordings was very early shown to be a hoax, i.e. a mixture of recordings of unrelated topics: some genuine amazement at the crash of MH17 and some possible genuine discussion about earlier shoot downs.

The timestamp issue was most likely just a misreading of YouTube data, but it now quite unexpectedly pops up again. Seems that someone important believed in the false timestamp. Cyberberkut has has released some discussion involving Kolomoiskiy's assistant.

Do we have a conclusion on the early upload claim? I do not now see immediately something uploaded on 16 July;zerohedge references an upload elsewhere called сбу.mp4, but that file was deleted so now it is unclear what it was? --- (also what is the time zone on those time stamps? Ukraine in summer is UTC +2 + 1 (DST); if timestamp is correct local time, at least they produced their fake very quickly).

--Resup (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

On RT Russian: Hackers broke into the conversation approximate Kolomoiskiy about Boeing crash in Ukraine

From the correspondence between Kolomoisky's deputy Svyatoslav Oleynik and Anatoly Gritsenko, leader of "Citizenship" party.
Gritsenko: Slava! What the hell?! What have you bitches done? How could you upload that video the day before the operation???!!! Do you understand that the «Russists» have already given it for the expert review and requested Youtube for the date of its very first upload???
Oleinik: Anatoly Stepanovich, I'll call you now! I went out and the phone was left in the office, on the Internet with the tablet. I have now gathering a couple minutes.
-- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
The time issue and maybe other seed more consideration. First time. Last year, over Ghouta, it was the California time-zone 11-hour discrepancy. This time, the dates are fine. Now, this GMorder (cited by TDurden) found the Russian one, NwtxBA1m9x8, was created Jul 16 at 19:10:24. I'm not sure what method, but I used the one recommended by Petri here (and thanks for that). I get for that video: published: 2014-07-17 T19:08:57.000Z updated: 2014-08-12 T21:24:12.000Z. The English one: 2014-07-17T20:33:16.000Z. updated: 2014-08-12T14:37:41.000Z What can that mean, why the different results, which is proven? My clock computer sometimes has issues, but it shouldn't effect that. It might effect what it says here for creation date on my downloaded copy of the English one: July 23, modified date. no help anyway. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Note: the Ghouta videos had the issue by being early morning - anything after 11 AM came out with the right date. It wouldn't apply to MH17, an afternoon event (and one time zone closer to California's time) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Dunno about the time, but as to the "mixture of recordings of unrelated topics" Petri mentioned, here's a video claiming to prove audio fakery. I didn't fire up the audio editor to check this out, maybe I should. But in this case I go from large to small, and the fact that those "leaks" haven't been mentioned much even by Kerry's harpies tells me enough. Just like the fact that no pressure is put on the Putschists to release the ATC recordings, and the black box stuff is the opposite of forthcoming, and no satellite material or anything with a stamp put on it by an American more "credible" than Marie Harf has been forthcoming tells me with much greater certainty than some field could burn that the real story doesn't fit the "Western" desired narrative. --CE (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Claims of fakery - I'll check that out. Worth considering what's said and how logical it is, etc. But the hard debunk I think failed, and it seems to be a method issue. This piece at Metabunk says GMorder used the Russian service, which he did, and which the author says he tested. Two videos of his own made - of the time and date, from a government website - on July 21, one uploaded to/downloaded back from Youtube, the other left raw (one he had set for 2015 as well). He says he uploaded both to RGhost and the site told him in no uncertain terms he made those videos a day earlier than he did, July 20 this year and next. Between Youtube and our method there's no day shaved off. I didn't test it myself but it might be RGhost in this regard is a universal "it was a day too early!" converter for debunks that are a little too easy.--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Collage Claims

(copied from A False-Flag Defector Theory)--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC) This brief piece on Chernukhino Cossacks is disconnected from the first piece (about Miner, apparently another rebel) and from discussion of discovering that it was a passenger plane and of the bodies. Chernukhino piece is timed at 16.33 on the crash day. First piece (Miner) is timed earlier, actually, at 16:40, and talks about a different location (really bad gluing skill here; this miner thing is most likely from another day, and I recall that was claimed in discussions which followed. ) Gluing is beyond any doubt; but individual pieces sound genuine for my ears. So he does not actually say it was his Cossacks or what they shot was a passenger plane; just that (some) Cossacks standing at Chernukhino shot (some ) plane, and than it cuts off; rebel blame is rather what this gluing order is trying to convey on us. I would certainly check this out. --Chingachgook (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I've gone back to early things to refresh my memory. And the whole tone of voice was different then. Today it is all propaganda and fantastic stories from everyone.The first 2 days everyone sounded genuine, spoke unthinking,not for effect. So I am thinking, things said early are more likely true. Yes that video with the telephone calls was from 3 separate calls, and at least one maybe not from July 17. The one about Yenaklevo I think is another day. KatKan (talk) 00:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I too have heard this was in reference to an earlier event I checked where that place is. When I typed Enakievo, Ukraine into Google Maps, it took me straight to Yenakijeve, so MH17 is a possible explanation (jut northeast of this nearest good-sized city) It could be something else too, but not the AN26 on the 14th, I don't think, as that was too far east to fit the bill. It could be some other downing, or MH17 they're talking about. If the latter, it's the definition of "we" in "we have just shot down" that would be crucial. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Gmaps link of the span - at 40 km, it's still the nearest large city, but far enough there's plenty of other possible events 30 min. before x-time on whatever day. (Are there? I'm not sure how many aircraft downings there even had been by then) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:49, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
time stamp: The initial portion refering to an unidentified plane just shot down is given as recorded at 4:40 - which is about 35 minutes too early to be about MH17. Maybe it's just a time zone behind in this spot, while others seem about right, are timed even earlier than this, and are clearly about MH17. In this first part, Bez says the shoot-down was about 30 minutes ago, making it about 5:45 if they refer to a plane shot down about the MH17 was - 5:45-ish to 4:40 is close enough to one hour off that that seems pretty likely (of course times and dates can be fudged and mean nothing, but that is two arguably consistent points even in the oddball part, right?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Content Analysis

Chernukino Connection

(copied (not too sloppily I hope) from A False-Flag Defector Theory)--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

...early intercepted call said ""These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those Cossacks who are based in Chernukhino." and nobody's ever looked there. It is same distance as Snizneh and 90 degrees to the flight path so an easy shot. KatKan (talk) 15:24, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, the other town being named is one clue for another site, and no one looking could be why there's nothing else. I'm not sure how Chernukin connects - If the burned spot is up there, or there's another one... maybe the defector made his contact with those guys, and so his little team was called part of theirs - Miner brought them. As for why the other area, it was indicated and they say it had burn marks at the end (can't be checked and ruled in or out), so they went and it appears to have been smart. In the other direction, a mention the responsible people are from there, not even that they fired from there. But at least it's not pulled out of thin air. If there becomes more to support it, I'll consider more. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:34, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

As I recall (but do not have links saved), this is Bes recordings, glued together from genuine pieces. (I believe Bes was quoted commenting on those claims without denying they are genuine early on himself, as reported by pro-Russia media; I am unable to find this now. ) The first piece, mentioning Enakievo, is about a different earlier episode--as he himself was quoted responded. His response about the second piece, mentioning Cossacks, was much more evasive, something like 'if every block post has a Buk, than I'll be in Kiev'. But it is clear that at the time of event, he had reason to believe that something was going on over there. That does not say this happened exactly as he thought, Cossacks may be shooting pistols not Buks or whatever; but it _may_ looked like something is launched from there, or whatever the case might be. This does suggest some notable event at that location. I do not see genuine evidence pointing to the current official version; it is more consistent with somebody trying to put a false flag there so that all attention of social networkers go that way. Chasing this flag further is a waste of time in my opinion, and is unlikely to produce anything new which is not known already. Looking the other way, even pointing out there is SOME other way, might. (Actually, it looks like attempts were made to place SEVERAL false flags, and than whatever was picked up , was supported by some further noise). --Chingachgook (talk) 23:28, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

According to a native Russian speaker I consider reputable, the SBU audio yields:

0.43 (“X”) да майор (yes, major)

0.44 (“Bes”) это значит Чернухинские сбили самолёт (so those from Chernukhino shot the plane)

“X” [кто] [ sounds like “то ” --unclear/noise] [сбил] ??? (who (unclear) shot ???)

0.50-0.52 (”Bes”) с Чернухинского блок поста, казаки что на Чернухино стоят (from Chernukhino block-post, Cossacks which "stand" [are located] at Chernukhino

Previous and subsequent recordings appear unrelated. --Chingachgook (talk) 12:01, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Was that from the Russian subtitles, or the Ukrainian audio? Either way, it sounds like about the same - he thinks it was the cossacks from Chernukino who had the launcher responsible. This is a clue, either to the real story, or to the alleged story in a piece of fiction. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
They speak in Russian , not Ukranian. The edit I provided gives what they can be heard SAYING in Russian, with a translation in English . Transcription of voice provided (also in Russian) on the video, for this episode and at this time of me looking at that source, are essentially correct. I note that in the episode describing discovery it was a passenger plane, caption giving the timing appears controversial , I read it as 5.11 p.m (1) and 16.33 here (2) . (I have no clue which one, if any, timing captions is correct). I do not know what the actual "source" would be, looks like there are distinct copies of "sources" --Chingachgook (talk) 13:38, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Brain fart. Ethnic Russian speaking separatists - Ukrainians, yes, nut not culturally - I just forgot that whole part. So the subtitles must be Ukrainian - duh. Discrepancies, good - follow those. I better not open my mouth yet when I'm this tired and "gassy." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

In source (1) (timing next event at 5.11 pm), translation is from Russian to English. That task was piece of cake, I gather. While in sourse (2), timing the next event immediately at 16.33, it is translated from Russian to, well, RUSSIAN. That was so tough a task, that above mentioned native Russian speaker just freaked out when pressed hard to do it. Apparently that near titanic work required the full power of SBU behind to figure. But they did that part of the job problem-free. --Chingachgook (talk) 18:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

To me, it sounds like they're just from there, not that the missile was launched from there. But apparently, it's been read the latter way by several people. Three articles I found, no opinion yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

A translation would be "standing [guard] there." There is no discussions of any Buks or any other missiles whatsoever, anywhere on this source piece. That was thrown in , many times, very crudely sometimes, late on. Like a plane is shot down--"nonrebels" would say shot down , appears, by Buk --Chingachgook (talk) 13:46, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Sapper could not be reached for comment; his real identity is not known. Bezler, contacted on Friday by the AP, denied any connection to the attack on the plane. "I did not shoot down the Malaysia Airlines plane. I did not have the physical capabilities to do so," he declared. According to the account of the rebel official, however, Sapper had been sent that day to inspect three checkpoints — in the towns of Debaltsevo, Chernukhino and Snizhne, all of which are within a 20-mile (30-kilometer) radius of where the plane went down. At some point in these travels, he joined up with the convoy accompanying the missile launch system.
Chernukhino  - This one is less conclusive. The Ukrainian government released an intercepted phone call reportedly between separatist military commander and Igor Bezler (Bes, or "Demon") and Vasily Geranin, who is described as a colonel in the Russian Federation's GRU (main military intelligence), in which they talk about shooting down an aircraft in this area. In a second conversation two separatists say that the missile that shot the aircraft out of the sky came from this town.
Military activity was absent at the site of the supposed missile launch which had been reported as having brought down the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 in Chernukhino, Lugansk region, on Friday.
The reports billing Chernukhino as the site of a missile launch erupted after the Ukrainian Security Service released recordings of conversations allegedly between anti-Kiev militia commanders plotting to shoot down an aircraft. 
A member of the local anti-Kiev unit said that the two commanders allegedly taking part in the conversation were in Enakievo on July 17 at time of the crash.
This last seems to acknowledge that people were thinking that, and that a knowledgeable local denied it. How you could say there was no activity, unclear (because the guys were in the one town and not the other, so they couldn't know?) Not a very clear denial anyway... --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Strange news release was just observed by a friend of mine. It is saying something to the effect that SBU is looking into a possibility that the plane was shot down by a defector from the Ukranian army. [1] I have never heard on this news medium. I will look into whether it is real or fake at some later time, if that's than still relevant. In the meantime I need to do some urgent work which I had left neglected --Chingachgook (talk) 19:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I've seen around, the claim will be real. I'll let my friend Google try and translate ... SBU's Victor Yanugov is cited, speaking to Channel 5 (extremely pro-junta, I gather - a mouthpiece). They're saying maybe the launcher was Russian but its crew was of "Ukrainian soldiers, who remained in the Crimea, and went over to the Russian Federation." The main training areas for all such weapons had been there, and more specialists than usual, and of course very few returned to Ukraine, most preferring to be Russian at that point. It's one of "several versions" they're working through. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)