Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack on Aleppo, September 6, 2016

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Chlorine Indicators

" was not clear how the activists determined that chlorine gas was released." - Sky News

As we know, chlorine turns to hydrochloric acid on contact with water, so moist tissues will be damaged. Look for irritated red eyes, skin irritation or burns, often violent coughing, perhaps with blood or mucous. Simple coughing can be faked, and simply having an oxygen mask on means nothing in itself. With enough exposure, the subject might display cyanosis (blue-purple color shift, especially visible in the lips).

More signs: red face, rapid, shallow, strained breathing (it hurts), sometimes retching and vomiting occur, the patient suffers a severe headache, see Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, March 16, 2015#Chlorine Gassing Symptoms for more details. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:57, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Considering victims seen on video (as collected already by Petri):

  • 1)
    • 0:47-1:05 - boy, mask off, not coughing, then mask on, no indicators seen
    • 1:05 - man and boy, no indicators seen - seem bored
    • 1:20 - girl, mask on, breathing deeply, no clear indicators
    • 1:26 - girl, mask on, no indicators seen - strange wiggling (does she think chlorine is a nerve agent?) Eyes wiggle, but show no redness.
Other than the eyes, this could just be shivering from being wet and cold, possibly with coughing mixed) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
    • 1:41 - man, mask on, no indicators seen

  • 2)
    • 0:04 - old man, mask on, coughing
    • 0:08 - boy, mask on, eyes squeezed shut, seem puffy, but not red. Seems to be in some real distress.
    • 0:13 - boy, mask off, no indicators seen - one dubious cough, eyes open and white, not in distress
    • 0:14 - toddler, mask on, possible eye irritation, in distress
    • 0:23 - young girl, mask on, no indicators seen, white eyes
    • 0:27 - young boy, no indicators seen, white eyes, no coughing, holds his own oxygen mask near his face, not seeming to need it.
  • 3)
    • 0:01-0:22 - man, could be dead, they're trying artificial breathing - no clear indicators - eyes and skin seem evenly white.
    • 0:24 two boys in hospital gowns, no masks, no indicators, breathing fine but bored/apprehensive
    • 0:36 - 2 men, masks on, no indicators seen
    • 0:42 - man, mask on, no indicators
    • 0:50 - man, mask on, no indicators
    • 0:56 - man, mask on, no indicators

--Caustic Logic (talk) 07:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

  • 5) (added later) OGN
    • 0:01 and 0:50 to 1:25 - a lone man sitting on the street with realistic signs of moderate exposure. Blinking, red eyes, coughing realistically, covering his face, apparently waiting for a ride (the video host gives him a ride)
    • 1:28 - (at clinic) apparent teenage girl carried by, badly injured face on both sides, no sign of coughing or skin irritation. Eyes are closed.
    • 1:35 - (inside clinic) man, convincing cough
    • 1:38 - (inside clinic) man, convincing cough

Correct eyes for chlorine: video 5, 0:53 - suggests moderate exposure for some.

9-6-16-OGN Eyes.png

Incorrect eyes (left-to-right: video 3 0:27, video 2 1:26, video 3 0:13) - suggests non-exposed people were also brought in.

9-6-16-Chlorine WhiteEyes.png

Comparison Table

That's about 20 24 patients seen going into this table, copied from Alleged Chlorine Attack Checklist

Chlorine Clinical Signs Comparison Table
Known indicator Reported indicator Shown indicator alternate exp.?
pending review (as listed above) (acting)
dyspnea (rapid, difficult breathing) several possible cases possible acting/staging

agitation/distress some real distress, but most are fairly calm possible acting/staging
severe cough "coughing loudly" (CNN) video 5, 0:55 - 1:35 otherwise mild, unconvincing possible acting/staging, bronchitis, dust/exhaust, etc.
coughing blood/mucous "respiratory burns" for Hajer Kyali (UPI) none seen(including with Hajer - video 5, 1:30)
retching/vomiting none seen
skin redness little to none
other skin burns video 5, 1:28 local burns are from fire, etc. (could be aggravated by chlorine, but no other sign of that). Otherwise, none noted.
red face a few possible mild cases, very general
eye irritation/damage "red, teary eyes" (CNN) Clear: video 5, 0:53. Possible, video 2, 0:08. Otherwise, eyes are white possible acting/staging, some other irritant
cyanosis none noted
Weakness in the legs A boy (with no other signs) is carried in (video 1 0:47) possible acting/staging
(no match) strange convulsions? (video 1, 1:26) shivering, possible acting/staging
respiratory failure cause of death for Abdulkareem Afefa, age 29 many causes

Report linked on wikimapia

CL, I deleted your addition about the "anniversary". In fact, I had thought the same when I saw it, but it is just a coincidence, as you can read in the report from September 6, 2012 where it says that Sukkari "remains under control" of the "rebels" and the battles the article is about are somewhere else. The "as of" in the wikimapia comment therefore doesn't mean "was conquered on". I thought the last sentence of the report was quite eerie:

‘Don’t they understand that we are the last dam that is holding back the flood of Islamists in Europe,’ [the general in charge] asked. ‘What blindness.’

--CE (talk) 08:41, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Good catch then! Indeed, I didn't actually read it, just saw "as of" and the same date. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)