Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims

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Head Wounds

moved from Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds

Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children. CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png

CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png

Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.

Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.

The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. Pierpont (talk) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.
CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png

Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Bodies of the Child Victims

moved from: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims

Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --Withnail (talk) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

A good observation! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Telegraph sourced report has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.

First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --Charles Wood (talk) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Is this the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --CE (talk) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story.
So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --Charles Wood (talk) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

In a post on SST, TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director. Can we confirm these last two findings? Pmr9 (talk) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, all this is in the photo and video record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Victim parade

I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is a playlist. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Al-Yousef Family

moved from: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family

The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdel Hameed Alyousef

The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. Withnail (talk) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. Pmr9 (talk) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives.
The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [1] Withnail (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was not 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Video found: Zaman al-Wasl - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
More videos
AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png

Proof man?

Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. Pmr9 (talk) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure.
As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Khalid al-Yusuf

  • Buzzfeed has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.Withnail (talk) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Mazin Yusif

  • Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? Withnail (talk) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: CNN, another citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdul Hameed Yousef

A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in this video filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --Caustic Logic

Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --Charles Wood (talk) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdelqader Al-Yousef

  • Zaman al-Wasl video, after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."

Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf

Kingsley and Barnard, NYT Gulf News A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth." "when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."

Yousef al-Yousef

Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Abu Amash Family

Gulf News Fox News

At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.
The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.
“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.
The attack killed at least 75 people...

And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The VDC's list of 92 includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, an Arabic search for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:
  • Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was they day some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression.
  • Shadi Abo Ammash civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013
  • Diae Refat Abo Ammash civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013
  • Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash, "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014
  • Nisreen Abo Ammash married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing.
  • Amar Ahmad Abo Amash FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016
Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?
A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)