Category talk:Chemical Weapons
- 1 Obama's Red Line
- 2 U.S. Says Red Line Crossed, Deadly Aid Coming
- 3 Opposition Claims
- 4 Al-Nusra's 2 Kg of Sarin
- 5 Other/Assorted
- 6 Al-Nusra Plastic Grenades
- 7 Idelb Incident, around May 1
- 8 Syria Accuses Turkey
- 9 British MI6 operation
- 10 Early Alleged Chemical Attacks
- 11 Timeline by VDC Records
- 12 Possible/Sorta CW Incidents
- 13 Sources
- 14 UN investigations
- 15 More polyethylene glycol?
- 16 DIY mortar
- 17 Channel 4 Snowblog?
- 18 Rebel CW possession?
- 19 June 2013 Kerry document?
- 20 Assorted Alleged Incidents
- 21 Biological Weapons
- 22 Disarmament
- 23 Ukraine 2014
- 24 Donetsk Airport
- 25 Idlib March 2015
- 26 Gulf War syndrome
- 27 HRW Chlorine Reports
- 28 Sergei Skripal?
Obama's Red Line
- “Given the regime's stockpiles of chemical weapons, we will continue to make it clear to Assad and those around him that the world is watching and that they will be held accountable by the international community and the United States should they make the tragic mistake of using those weapons,” he added.
- ... The president told the CNN news network, “The use of chemical weapons is internationally forbidden. What do you do when someone violates the law? You fight against them. You stop them.”
This pronouncement came about one week after the allegations of Nawaf Fares about "unconfirmed information of course, that chemical weapons have been used partially in the city of Homs.”
- One month later, the phrase "red line" enters the picture: August 20, 2012, Washington Post:
- “We have been very clear to the Assad regime, but also to other players on the ground, that a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized. That would change my calculus,” Obama said. “That would change my equation. . . . We’re monitoring that situation very carefully. We have put together a range of contingency plans.”
- Later report: analysis of "what he really said," after backing down following the Ghouta incident that occurred exactly a year after this pronouncement.
- No allegations noted shortly after this.
- Shortly before that: November 17, 2012. Odai Haroun, age not given (photo: suggests app. 10). VDC entry: listed as from Douma, but with Martyrdom location of Damascus Suburbs: Bahariah, where "he was martyred after suffocating due to poisonous chemical gas dropped from the regime's warplanes on Al-Bahariya town in what appears to be the first time such thing happens".
- "The use of chemical weapons is and would be totally unacceptable. And if you make the tragic mistake of using these weapons, there will be consequences and you will be held accountable," he said.
- After: allegations by rebels on December 6, 8, and 23, and by the government on December 22.
- Apparent pause until Alleged chemical attack, March 19, 2013
U.S. Says Red Line Crossed, Deadly Aid Coming
June 13: Maybe the rebels used CW, maybe in most attacks, even any involving sarin and all those that killed civilians, who knows. But Washington is finally certain the gov. also used some unspecified chemicals, probably sarin, in small amounts, etc. and is planning to send aid to the rebels (currently in a total brutality and desparation meltdown) and/or planning a no-fly zone.
- Syria Has Used Chemical Arms on Rebels, U.S. and Allies Find
- US close to approving lethal aid to Syrian rebels this week; no-fly zone unclear
Good news: the same air defenses that made a "no-fly zone" unlikely still exist. Probably another tough stance to create more pressure and doom again any thoughts of turning back or acknowledging Syrian sovereignty or victory over the jihadists. --Caustic Logic (talk) 21:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- There must be some secret order by some secret court that gives him permission to lie like shit. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- "We've taken two months to reach this, carefully creating the impression of a very careful and deliberative process," Rice should have said. Seriously, why does it taking longer to identify molecules make your political decision more realistic? Ban still sucks. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:06, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
This is the bizarre and Orwellian turn - clearly Aleppo what they (the West) wanted to NOT look at back in March. As Damascus demanded they investigate Aleppo, they insisted on including other attacks and broadening the scope into some regime-changey thing and keeping it all tied together, apparently to avoid looking at the Khan al-Assal attack in Aleppo. Now that they have enough "confidence" (rebels on the verge of defeat) they seize Damascus' high ground and swear that, whatever contradictory evidence (and it's heavy), their intel maneuvers prove both Jabhat al-Nusra attacks in Aleppo are in fact the main proof the red line was crossed and it's time to give al Qaeda an air force or whatever. Put another way, Syria boldly demanded an investigation of their own sarin attack, but the French and Brits and Yanks prevented early proof! How ironic! --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:42, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Kerry reportedly argued for air strikes against regime air bases used to employ chemical weapons against Syrian rebels at a discussion last week in the White House Situation Room, wrote Bloomberg columnist Jeffrey Goldberg, citing unnamed sources.
Source: Dempsey, Kerry clash over Syria – AFP, June 20, 2013
- Militants in Syria fabricated chemical weapons evidence: Report – July 22, 2013
- Rolf Ekeus, a Swedish scientist who headed up U.N. weapons inspections in Iraq during the 1990s, said the United States gave the militants the pretext to fabricate evidence by saying that Washington’s “red line” is the use of chemical weapons, The Washington Post reported.
- “If you are the opposition and you hear” that the White House has drawn a red line on the use of nerve agents, then “you have an interest in giving the impression that some chemical weapons have been used,” Ekeus said.
- "We are not able to say who has used chemical agents or chemical weapons,” said Paulo Pinheiro, chairman of the United Nations human rights investigation committee on Syria, on Friday.
- Syria Is Becoming Obama’s Iraq – Shamus Cooke, June 19, 2013
- In perfect Bush-like fashion, President Obama has invented a bogus pretense for military intervention in yet another Middle East country. The president’s claim that the Syrian government has used chemical weapons — and thus crossed Obama’s imaginary “red line” — will likely fool very few Americans, who already distrust their president after the massive NSA spying scandal.
- Obama has officially started down a path that inevitably leads to full-scale war. At this point the Obama administration thinks it has already invested too much military, financial, and diplomatic capital into the Syrian conflict to turn back, and each step forward brings the U.S. closer to a direct military intervention.
FSA's Abd Al-Baset Tawila sets ultimatum to US
I just found this video and first didn't realize the timing ... it's from three days before the White House announcement. My short description:
- The "commander of FSA northern front" details on Al Jazeera how "Uncle Sam" prevents them from getting anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons, and has done so since the beginning. If they had delivered, the regime had only survived a couple of months. US goal: destruction of Syria as they know they are unable to find fractions to run the country which aren't anti-Israel. He says they shouldn't make such a fuss about Al-Nusra, they aren't that bad and could be integrated in the new Syria. Which, as far as he is concerned must follow Islamic law and the army should be Islamic as well. Says the FSA commander.
- He goes on to set an ultimatum to the US to finally deliver advanced weapons. If that doesn't happen in the next month, he says on June 10, he threatens to spill the beans "about the use of chemical weapons".
- The guy is "legit", a colonel and the commander of the northern front (Aleppo and Idlib) of the "official" FSA Military Council of McCain's buddy Salim Idris. Although his photo shown there looks much different to the guy in the ultimatum video, but that could have been for "stealth" reasons as two other commanders have no photo at all. --CE (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, CE, and good catch. I saw the ultimatum around, you have one month. I wondered "or else what?" He says or "we will reveal all the evidence we have." In parentheses, (about the use of chemical weapons). Meaning he'd admit it was their brothers Jabhat al-Nusra? Clearly no. Meaning the "regime" has been gassing people daily? Already crowing plenty about that, why wait to "release" it all? So ... Israel was doing it? Western powers supplied "the regime" to help Israel and the Shi'ites destroy Syria? What made up crap were they threatening to "release" right before Obama's announcement? As for the image, MEMERI specifies Tawilla, but the picture with Al-Jazeera's report (0:56) looks too different to me. I think someone got mixed up, probably al-Jazeera. Or I'm wrong and lighting/aspect ratio/etc. explains it. Who cares? --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
- I suspect the little canisters found at the sights and at the chest of that creepy warrior contains weapons grade "tear-gas" that was delivered by Turkey and those guys have evidence for the chain of supply and that the US was "vetting" the recipients by looking the other way. Pic, I touched upon already. I have a feeling that Prince Fatso might have half-way successfully blackmailed the US into (at least promising to) up the game. --CE (talk) 01:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Deadly Aid Sinks?
Have we all seen this? I find it fascinating. MEDIA BLACKOUT: divine-intervention-or-russian-torpedo? One of the first shipments of weapons, reportedly, a massive load of whatever, the barge breaks in half, reportedly sinks, all conveniently filmed. Many are repeating this, but no "reputable" mainstream media. I'm not sure who it originates with. Some suspect a Russian attack. Some (me) at least half-suspect this is some kind of hoax, another random ship, mis-attributed for fun. But I'll leave checking into that for later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Nawaf Fares, 2012
BBC reported on 17 July, 2012 that Nawaf Fares, ex-ambassador to Iraq and "the most senior Syrian politician to defect to the opposition" told them "the regime" would easily use chemical weapons if "conered," and in fact suggested this had already happened. "There is information, unconfirmed information of course, that chemical weapons have been used partially in the city of Homs," he said.
Somewhere I had seen a report mentioning investigators looking into claims of a chemical attack as early as August of that year, probably related to President Obama's "red line" threat/offer issued on August 20. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:53, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
34 Suspected Attacks
Syrian expat Rebel doctors - Union of Syrian Medical Relief Organizations - trying their best and making it a mission managed to uncover just over twice as many alleged CW attacks as we have, while likely ignoring a few the rebels alone were blamed for. By "civilians" - 97% of the victims - do they mean rebel fighters, or actual civilians, I wonder? If the latter, the number of dead must be much, much higher than reported to allow for the many apparent fighters shown in case after case. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- AFP via Daily Star, June 1: Doctors record ‘dozens of chemical attacks’ in Syria
- Referring to a list of 34 suspected attacks, compiled by the group Syrian Human Rights Watch in Cairo, (Tawfik) Chamaa (a founding member of the Union of Syrian Medical Relief Organizations) said the attacks appeared mainly to be carried out by fighter jets, helicopters and long- and mid-range missiles. “And it’s the regime that is in possession of these weapons,” said Chamaa, a Swiss doctor of Syrian origin. “Since 2013, we have seen a huge increase in these attacks, and in recent days attacks with chemical weapons in the suburbs of Damascus are happening practically on a daily basis.”
- The organization, which has dozens of doctors in field hospitals across Syria, said 97 percent of victims were civilians, and the cases were mainly concentrated in the suburbs of Damascus.
- One of the group’s doctors, oncologist Mousa al-Kurdi, an Englishman, says he was inside Syria, Idlib, when four victims of the Saraqeb incident, all from one family, were brought in, he says looking like Sarin victims. The 50-year-old mother died later, but all survived to his clinic, and past it into Turkey. "Chamaa called this case a unique opportunity for the international community to gain clear proof of chemical weapons use, since numerous samples were taken from all four patients in Turkey. The body of the woman who died remained there." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
CW Defector Zaher al-Sakat
- Syria: 'Bashar al-Assad ordered me to gas people - but I could not do it' Richard Spencer, The Telegraph, Sept. 21, 2013.
Oskar Schindler Zaher al-Sakat : "in this way I saved hundreds of lives of children and others."
As chief scientific officer in the army's fifth division, this unlikely hero ran chemical weapons operations in the country's southern Deraa province for the bloodthirsty regime. "The regime wanted to "annihilate" the opposition using any means," the Telegraph's Spencer, a man drawn to the most level of sources, writes. Among these means, starting in October 2012, Sakat says he was ordered, on three occasions, "to use a mixture of phosgene and two other chlorine-based agents against civilian targets in Sheikh Masqeen, Herak, and Busra, all rebel-held districts." Instead, he says he swapped out the chemical agents with water and dilute bleach "which would give off a similar chlorine smell." The regime idiots were fooled three times, he says, and "In this way I saved hundreds of lives of children and others." But that last dud, in January, had suspicions finally raised, and so he ran off to Jordan and formally defected in the spring. From keeping up on the news, "Gen Sakat believes chemical weapons have now been used 34 times, rather than the 14 occasions cited by international intelligence agencies." This is the same exact high-end number decided on back before June 1 (see right above), with numerous alleged incidents since, including and even after Aug. 21. But as of late September, 34 is now the current number, coincidentally? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Beyond this, from his perch in Deraa al-Sakat learned early of "violence against peaceful protesters" that could, on study, very well have been by provocateur snipers using the minaret of the armed Omari mosque to push things in a Jihadi direction. But he also learned somehow about "the first use of "dirty tricks", placing weapons in the mosque where the protests started to suggest the protesters were armed," so he was clearly able to discount such possibilities. And into the future he sees no honest cooperation with the Russian plan to strip the Syrian government of its CW arsenal in exchange for national survival. Again, keeping up on the newest details, and with near omniscience, he told Spencer "before the Lavrov deal, they were already mobilising [chemical weapons] to move to Lebanon and even Iraq," he said. "There have already been weapons handed over to Hizbollah." Others support this, like Fahad al-Masri FSA spokesman, and hacker "Abu Mohammed," who read the transfer orders on unit 450's internal computer system, apparently the same transfers to Hezbollah cited by "western intelligence" to the Western media. Further yet,
- Gen Sakat said a team of his activists had observed a column of more than 20 vehicles, some identifiable as belonging to the programme, heading towards the Lebanese border. He also alleged that other stocks were being transferred through Iraq to Iran. "They saw these shipments start before Lavrov appeared and mentioned the deal," he said.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Al-Nusra's 2 Kg of Sarin
- Long War Journal/Threat Matrix, May 31: Reports claim Al Nusrah Front members in Turkey were planning sarin gas attacks 12 suspects arrested on May 30 in Adana, as part of a crackdown following the May 11 Reyhanli Bombings.
- While Adana mayor Hüseyin Avni Cos denied that the suspects were captured with sarin gas and warned against labeling them as part of any terror organization, the Turkish mainstream dailies Sabah and Milliyet are reporting today that the suspects were in fact members of the al Qaeda-linked Al Nusrah Front and were captured with sarin gas. Sabah reports that they were planning attacks on the Incirlik Air Base in Adana and in Gaziantep, a city near Turkey's border with Syria. Turkish security units have also allegedly received intelligence that three bomb-laden vehicles have entered Turkey from Syria and are planning attacks even larger than the previous one in Reyhanli, and authorities are now on high alert.
- According to another daily, Radikal, however, the suspects said that they planned to take the materials back to the conflict areas in Syria. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- Inner City Press, May 31: UN Met Syria on New Rep to Damascus, Bank Blockage Raised, Sarin Suspicions
- After reports of Al-Nusra arrests in Turkey, having sarin gas, Inner City Press asked Ja'afari what he made of it. He said, the US trying to distance itself from Al-Nusra. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- Court sentences Syrian in sarin gas case to 12 years, acquits Turkish suspects Today's Zaman, December 29, 2015: The same case started with the May 30 arrests is concluded in court. Syrian Haytham Qassab was found guilty in absentia of being a Nusra Front member and trying to get sarin precursors. He and the others were initially all arrested, all released, but then re-arrested after "the court later established that the materials they were trying to obtain could in fact be used to produce sarin." (delayed scientific opinion, not delayed tests of any seized chemicals) Qassab had fled and hasn't come back to stand trial, or hasn't been arrested anyway. The remaining 5 Turks were acquitted because they didn't have said materials in their posession, and it was decided that;s because they hadn't gotten them yet, not because they were already handed off. They say Qassab didn't have the materials either, was just looking, and these guys were looking with them, but apparently they weren't Nusra members, or working with them to get CW or anything (??) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Syria claims sarin seizure at rebel hideout as Russia ‘blocks’ UN's Qusair resolution – RT, May 2, 2013
- The Syrian Army has seized two containers with poisonous sarin agent in a rebel hideout, SANA said citing sources. Meanwhile, Russia reportedly blocked the UNSC resolution set to slam Damascus’ offensive on the town of Qusair held by opposition forces.
- Syrian Arab News Agency reports that sarin, together with automatic rifles, pistols and homemade bombs (IEDs) was seized in the Faraieh neighborhood of the city of Hama.
There have been five "Al-Qaeda" men busted, "with help of foreign intelligence agencies", said to run a Sarin production at three places in Baghdad and rural Iraq. High-flying plans of attacking Europe etc, guess its all over the news but I read it in this German article from yesterday. --CE (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- Turkey mostly mum on chemicals seized on Syria border – Fehim Taştekin, al Monitor, November 5, 2013
- Interesting story. Army announces it stopped a vehicle on November 2, shooting at its tires when it didn't stop. All occupants but one fled on foot successfully to Syria. One was taken in but released pending trial. May not show up. Inside were "Twenty sacks, each filled with 50 kilograms of sulfur, and eight barrels with sealed lids," sent for analysis, no word yet, and al-Monitor specifically asked. Some useful updates on the prior cases and who's been released pending trial - almost everyone. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
- Isis storms Saddam-era chemical weapons complex in Iraq – Damien McElroy, The Telegraph, 19 Jun 2014
- Facility containing disused stores of sarin and mustard gas overrun by jihadist group
- Isis has shown ambitions to seize and use chemical weapons in Syria leading experts to warn last night that the group could turn to improvised weapons to carry out a deadly attack in Iraq.
Al-Nusra Plastic Grenades
Brown Moses today:
- Jabhat Al-Nusra Photographed With "Chemical Weapons" – 8 May 2013
- Jabhat Al Nusra with 'chemical weapons' – Ruig Photography
It seems to be the same style of unknown grenade turned up after two chemical attacks, in Sheikh Maqsoud, Aleppo, April 13 and in Saraqeb, Idleb province, April 29. It looks like a white plastic body with top of metal and plastic, gas-emitting and non-exploding type, so intact afterwards and photographed in each case (that was news to me for the latter case). Then Ruigendijk saw those and it clicked with a photo he took in Syria of some real asshole Al-Nusra guy in that sort of area (but closer to the NATO border). He was some kind of rule-enforcer I guess, real self-impressed Jihad hero guy, who had on his chest, displayed and at the ready a dagger, handcuffs, and one of these grenades. There are a few question marks right there, but... One notion I like (see comments) is that they were whipped up on one of these 3-D printers and thus won't even appear in the weapons guide books. Where it comes from is then supposed to be some big mystery. What's in them is not entirely clear. I guess the Turks might know, but they aren't telling us yet, and may never tell the truth. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Thus, "al-Nusra grenade" seems a fair shorthand for these items. There were later efforts to re-define them as tools of the Syrian regime some rebels simply may have found a few of. There was a report of some captured on government soldiers, shown on video among other items (link/details forthcoming). There was also an effort by German journalist Alfred Hackensberger to track dow the grenades' source. He asked people, first regular rebels, then al-Nusra front fighters, then a defected soldier, and the impression he got was that these came from the Syrian military, and might therefore, in other cases, be still held and used by them. Brown Moses published the account here: The Hunt For Chemical Weapon Attack Linked Gas Grenades In Syria (July 19).
- ...we found two rebels at front line position in Assafireh who immediately recognized them. They were sure of seeing them on rebels, but didn't remember if the were from Liwa Tawhid or al-Nusra. But anyway, they said this were smoke grenades, not chemical grenades. ... At the al-Nusra Base fighters recognised the grenade immediately, and showed grenades of same type or series. They said: "All are smoke grenades, and we got them from Syrian Army depots." Again, they pointed out that their grenades are not "chemical weapon" grenades. Regarding whether or not they used them in combat, they didn't mention, or didn't want to mention anything. To my understanding, nobody we were talking to was aware that these kind of grenades were used in the alleged chemical attacks in Saraqeb or Sheikh Maqsoud. We had to explain to them, that these ones were used. I mean they really didn't know anything about them.
The only army guy who "confirms" their origin with the Syrian military is a defector who says they're supplied by sneaky Iran, and have a mysterious nerve agent inside. People he saw trained with the actual item, ergo his recognizing it, which either means just throwing or pulling and throwing, right? It keeps allegedly testing as Sarin and peddled as cause for war. Also, he failed to implicate Russia in this little story, so not convincing enough. ;) Also note the source "goes back and forth to the Turkish border to organise weapon transports," but that's not where he saw it. He was just the guy the annoyed end-receivers of those weapons pointed the journalist towards. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:21, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Even before the defector claims in July, Brown Moses had video of rebels in the Damascus area showing a number of these grenades on video, on May 24. What luck! 16 days after the embarrassing link above, someone finally shows us these mystery devices just after a fresh capture from the other side. Allegedly. These were just then captured they said, from government forces. Brown Moses was pleased.
That capture was in Irbeen, Damascus suburbs. If the area is true, that's far from the other places they've been seen. It raises the possibility they were in places like Homs as well. And if they had been in Homs back in December, they might have been used in the Alleged Chemical Attack, December 23, 2012. Jabhat al-Nusra of course was fairly new but well-established around every major city by then, and had just been declared a terrorist group by the US. The SOHR told ABC News the "white smoke" involved in that "would disperse quickly once the grenades were thrown by regime forces." An early version told to US consulate had the gas delivered from a "regime ground vehicle," perhaps tossing a grenade (though it's not mentioned), but the same sources later switched to blaming missiles, and noted that that the colorless gas in the night caused confusion and it was dark, so who knows (The Wire). Was the debut not ready? SOHR heard "This weapon is unidentified and has not been used before." --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:28, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- Digging around, I also found this quote in a Reuters report at Huffington Post,] but no SOHR posting of this "statement.":
- “White smoke without a smell spread throughout the area after regime forces threw grenades that emitted white smoke when they hit a wall,” the Observatory said. “Those who inhaled the gas said they felt dizzy and suffered headaches and some suffered seizures.”
- The Observatory, a British-based group with a network of activists across the country, called on the International Committee of the Red Cross to send a medical team to the area to determine what had happened.
- And another: AFP via news.com.au: "SYRIAN troops have deployed bombs containing a killer gas," the report concludes, translating SOHR differently (so it was in Arabic?):
- '"Gas spread in the area after regime troops threw bombs that gave off white smoke as soon as they hit the walls," said the Observatory, which added the bombs were deployed during street clashes with the rebels. "Those who inhaled the gas felt nauseous and suffered severe headaches. Some suffered fits," it added. "These are not chemical weapons, but we do not know whether they are internationally prohibited," Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman said. "Activists say it is the first time they have recorded these effects," he added. "They are not conventional weapons."
- And finally CNN
Idelb Incident, around May 1
(misspelling left as a reminder to watch that middle-letters dylsexia) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Cotnent moved to Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, April 29, 2013 --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Syria Accuses Turkey
About time.First source, not best: Talk Radio News Service, Syria Blames West For Chemical Weapons Attacks As UN Investigates From Afar, April 26. The UN investigation is investigating, the report says. On Cyprus, fine for a start. They can go to Khan Al-Assal whenever they want, and Geneva or New York already has evidence sent to them. Anyway, the meat:
- Assad government officials Friday rejected U.S. and British allegations Damascus had used its chemical arsenal against opposition fighters, and instead accused Turkey of allowing rebels to transfer chemical weapons across the border into Syria.
- During a parliament session, Turkish deputy from the Republican Party SHP Eren Erdem provided evidence of Turkey supplying ISIS with poison gas sarin, Expert.ru and Rusvesna, Dec 10, 2015 --Resup (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
British MI6 operation
Early Alleged Chemical Attacks
Previously I'd made a big deal of Obama's first laying out his red line Dec. 3, 2012, and how the alleged crossing began three days later. But of course he had already declared that months earlier, a year to the day before the massive alleged attack in East Ghouta. I saw somewhere a report that the first chemical attacks were reported in August, presumably after that. Details not handy at the moment. But here's a space for all alleged attacks that predate the early December stories we started with here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:36, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
The VDC records an alleged attack from the air that left one boy dead, in the Damascus suburbs, on November 17, 2012. Odai Haroun, age not given (photo: suggests app. 10). He's listed as from Douma, but with Martyrdom location of Damascus Suburbs: Bahariah, where "he was martyred after suffocating due to poisonous chemical gas dropped from the regime's warplanes on Al-Bahariya town in what appears to be the first time such thing happens". Cause of death: other. After this I guess they created the category for toxic gasses. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC))
Returning to the boy, he also doesn't look like a clear chemical victim. What, no wounds? No, no bullet holes seen. But also no cyanosis, for example. There might be a patch of blue ... enhancing, I think it's clear enough to call (gamma down, contrast up, blue down/yellow shift)- video artifacting is possible at the adge but not across the middle - a patch of blue right across his throat. Possible size and shape of two Islamist adult male thumbs. (also, darker areas around the mouth and nose could mean something - is that partly smoke stains?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
- Also, that boy looks a bit thin. -- CL, earlier...
Second time wasn't far off or much different: a family from Douma flees somewhere else, rebels are in charge then or later, a gas attack happens, one child dies. A girl Fatma Mohammad Shalhoub died Nov. 23: "she was reported on 10-5-2013 , she was martyred after her family flee to Rihan area, she is one month old , according the doctor reason of death is the cold, or Inhalation of chemical gases as a result of the bombing. reports to be validated." They allege their was an attack, which might have killed her, or no one, and it was also cold. - CL, earlier
- Next, locations for Bahariah and Rihan, re: Douma and JaI-type control... these people were dying during their expansion, perhaps after fleeing their emergence in Douma... losing one baby each, to "toxic gas" as bad luck catches up... and noting an IDP family from Harasta (next to Douma) lost a baby and no one else in the march 19 Ateibah incident...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
- After a pause... Bahariya is 14 km SE of Douma, north of Otaybah, and Rihan is right by it, about 4 km east. Neither family was displaced very far. I've put these cases together into a new blog post. ALong the way I dug around but found no reports or any further info on these kids or incidents. This seems to be all there is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:30, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- I've heard some claim of an attack in or by August 2012, lost the source (was mainstream, from intel channels, vague). - CL
- #CW Defector Zaher al-Sakat says he got orders to sarin gas people in rebel areas starting in October, but he used fake stuff every time (bleach to smell like sarin), and also no one in the targeted rebel areas reported it to the outside media at the time, that we've noticed. He specifies Sheikh Masqeen, Herak, and Busra. These are in an area just northeast of the city of Daraa, south of Damascus.
- October 17, 2012: Dec. 2013 UN report mentions the investigating mission "did not receive sufficient or credible information" on a list of incidents starting with "Salquin on 17 October 2012." That's the first I heard. It's not clear who's blaming who. Salqin was the site of an allegation of CW possession by rebels, but I think that was later... Will be looking for some details. Salqin is right by the Turkish border in Idlib province, south of Harem (Wikimapia), so not at all something Sakat was talking about. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- Looking closer, they say France brought the allegation, on March 26. So it'll be against the government. That's all I can say. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:47, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Timeline by VDC Records
Below, where the suspicious death come in more fully, what the VDC records suggest, just for alleged attacks with fatalities. There are many alleged incidents we hadn't heard about otherwise, in the timeline on the front page here. For fullness, I'll list those above and not, with select notes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
all prior up to August 19, 2013 = 80 total, "FSA" and civilian alike.
- 11-17 Bahariah, Damascus suburbs, one dead child, IDP (see above)
- 11-23 Rihan, Damascus suburbs, one dead child, IDP (see above)
- 12-23 Bayada, Homs - 1 FSA, 6 civilian men: 2 Hamadi, 1 Rous, 1 Asi, 1 Unidentified, 1 Mando (prev. target name in Homs Massacres)
- 03-19 KaA: 22 dead civilians, men, women, children listed. Soldiers would be listed under Regime forces: never did get listed - only 6 CW entries total, and one is a baby girl who died in Turkey after an ISIS mustard gas attack. All killed 3-19 are listed as 8, by shooting and explosion.
- 03-19 Ateibah - 6 men on right date (all "civilian" but 1 looks like a fighter), 1 baby listed late: Mohammad al-Sawah, from Harasta but died in Otaiba. "Two weeks old, IDP with his parents, the parents didn't allow documenting his name until today so the exact date of death is unknown but he was exposed in 19/03/2013. Martyred due to exposure to chemical gasses, reports to be validated."
- 03-24 Adra, 2 FSA Martyred due to inhalation of toxic gases as a result of the regime`s use of chemical weapons, report to be validated.
- 04-13 Sheikh Maqsoud, Aleppo - 14 dead civilians: 9 men, 3 women, 2 baby boys,
- 04-14 Jobar 1 FSA: Ibrahim Darwesh from Jisreen, died in Damascus: Jobar. "Martyred due to inhalation of toxic gases as a result of the regime`s use of chemical weapons on one of Jobar front-Eastern Ghouta side, report to be validated."
- 04-29 Saraqeb - one woman dead
- 05-13 1 FSA: Ahmad al-Mohammad from Maasaran, Idlib - where died, unclear. "Secretary of the military council // He died from the impact of chemical gases."
- 05-17 1 FSA: Mohammad Abdul Raouf Hashish from Daraa, Defected 2nd Lieutenant. Martyrdom location Damascus Suburbs: Adra Balad. "Known as (Abu Abdo al-Darawe), Due to inhaling of chemical gases shelled by the regime`s forces on the Matahin area, report to be validated." (photo, visual note: hair sticks up, red-purple color in face)
- 05-23: 3 FSA from Douma
- 05-27: 3 dead, 2 FSA and civ man from Harasta "Due to chemical gases exposure in a shelling by the regime's army forces with three rockets on the High way front." FSA: Yaser Hasan Afouf, age 44, photo/video. FSA: Fadel Omar Afof age 34, video. FSA not named Afouf: zero! (different mother's names are given, and middle names differ, so they're not brothers - likely cousins) Civilian: Mahmoud Omar al-Eiss "Was Known as (Abo Sayah)." Photo/video: bearded older man, reddish face, yellow crust in beard) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:52, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
- 06-19: 3 FSA in Zamalka
- 06-23: 9 dead FSA, from all over but largely Zamalka, area not specified but likely Zamalka
- 06-26: 1 FSA Adnan Mohe al-Deen al-Shathely from Douma, "Known as (Abu Majid), Due to chemical gasses used by the regime`s army forces in (Furkan) battle on Damascus:Homs road." Videos, VDC document shown, and photo - he has blood and thick mucous, apparently, coming from his mouth - severe exposure to caustic agent)
- 06-27 one young civilian man (portrait photo) Hussam al-Mrabey was killed "Due to regime chemical weapon use on the outskirts of Qaboun neighborhood"
- 06-30 1 FSA Ammar Qatat died "due to inhaling chemical gasses delivered by the regime`s army forces in (Kasas Adel) battle, another source mentioned his name as (Ammar Katkat)" Videos, photo: purple, burned lips, traces of mucous, puffy, swollen eyes - caustic, like chlorine. The name rings a bell...
- 07-13 Emad Mohammad Ali from Assali, died in Damascus: Yarmouk Camp. "Known as (Abu Mohammad), he is from Golan from Quneitra from Ain Aisha village, due to regime`s army chemical gasses shelling on Yarmouk Camp front." Videos.
08-12date typo for an 8-21 Ghouta victim. No more listed 'til then, and there was a pause of over a month where no one died from the continuing CW attacks, records say.
- Quite likely: Islamists making it look like "Assad dunnit" by killing other rebels - more FSA-ish competitors, perhaps. Best done after kidnapping, in a gas chamber, at some well-chosen time, when a rocket with nasty smelling stuff is also fired at random. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- 923 dead, plus entries like this baby girl, added later and dated wrong, minus numerous double entries we've identified. It's well short of the claimed 1,400-1,700+ victims, but well above many lower estimates, likely exaggerated but also possibly close to the true size. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- After Ghouta, 3.5 years up to January 2017, 109 more died, civilians and "FSA" alike in all combined attacks. They got lively again, but only after a notable pause.
- a few days later, it's 110. Still no one newer than 12-15, so someone was added to a previous slot. Maybe I can deduce which. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:03, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
...rest of 2013
- 12-06 a young guy dies from tear gas at a demonstration, they say. Doesn't really count. That's 2013.
- 2014-01-14 4 FSA, Daraya
- 2014-03-02 4 FSA, Douma
- 03-28 7 dead FSA from Harasta, Due to regime forces use of poisonous gas during clashes at (Koua) area, VDC cannot confirm this directly
- 04-11/04-16 3 FSA, Harasta (one listed late) "Three martyred due to regime use of chemical and toxic gasses on Harsta front in a tunnel, the three bodies couldn't be retrieved .VDC cannot confirm this directly." (same day as CW attack in Idlib, rebels across the country are in a tunnel with deadly chemicals)
- 04-11 Kafr Zita: one woman only blamed on the chlorine gas, listed as dying 5 days later in Turkey. Her father and a girl died at the time, but from head wounds. They seem to be displaced people (IDP) - it says they're from Morek.
- 4-18: 3 civilians: husband and wife and their son, from Khan Sheikhoun but killed in Tamanaah. "IDP, a father and a mother and their son killed due to exposure to chemical and toxic gasses by the government force helicopter shelling" names: al-Sousy, Iskandar
- 4-21-25 another family - mother, two children (boy and girl age 7) - from Telminis, killed there, not IDP. children's family name: Al-Hashash "Nawas", Mother's name Barakat. "Martyred due to exposure to Chlorine gas which was contained in a barrel bomb shelled on his house, delivered by the government helicopter" on April 21. The boy died right away, but both mother and daughter survived a journey to a hospital in Turkey, where they died on the 25th.
- 4-26 - not an incident: Ahmad Othman Hamzeh from Erbeen, a "Defected Colonel" (not specified as the usual "FSA") died in Jordan, not on this day (date of entry). "Known as (Abo Othman), the source mentioned that he died as a result of Sarin Gas attack in 21-08-2014. unconfirmed by VDC." Cited report: http://erama.info/sos/wordpress/?p=9060
- 5-22 one woman Soad Alloshy from Soran Hama died in Tamanaah. "IDP, due to inhaling Chlorine gas which has being delivered by Arial barrels shelling, due to sever breathing problems"
- 8-20 3 FSA men: "Three martyrs due to regime forces use of chemical gasses (nerve agent) during the military battles in the northern front of Jobar neighborhood, ten were injured and three died as a result of exposure to that gas." entries include a photo that shows they were on a severe diet also, for some time prior to that - not clearly starved, but possibly. names: Mullah, unidentified x2.
- 8-23 2 FSA guys (photos, bearded, one has bad mucous) from Erbeen killed "Due to regime forces use of poisonous gas during clashes on the vesicles (vehicles?) administration front..."
- 9-24: 7 civilian men killed, from Damascus area, Latakia, Iraq, 2 Haydars from Salamiya, Hama... they died together in Damascus Suburbs: Adra Omaliya. Due to inhaling chemical and toxic gases which been shelled on the area by the regime army forces, 15 have been injured and 7 dead." Videos included, but no explanation of how these displaced and gender-segregated people came to get gassed.
- 10-04, under "regime forces" are 5 men, partly identified, unknown rank, from Nabek and Yabroud, killed in Harasta, October 4, 2014, "Due to chemical strike by mistake by regime forces." These plus a girl killed by ISIS comprise all 6 "regime forces" killed by CW and listed that way. By this, rebels have never killed soldiers or the strange types who get listed here as rank:civilian with chemical weapons. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- 10-21 One FSA from Harasta killed "Due to Chemical and toxic weapons use by the regime army forces on one of the front lines"
- 10-25/12-25 3 FSA from Harasta. "Three Martyred Due to Chemical and toxic weapons use by the regime army forces on one of the front lines of Damascus- Homs road." 2 dates are given, a typo. 12-25 is done twice. A video is from that day. (al-A'an TV news report)
- (first entry) 3-16, Sarmeen
- 03-31 Idlib City
- 05-02 Neirab, Idlib
- 05-03 Jobar, Damascus Suburbs Khalid al-Sheikh Bakri
- 9-07 ((under regime fatalities database) Sydra Ahmed Lattouf, Child - Female, status: regime's army, rank: civilian. Photo shows a very young baby burned badly by mustard gas. From Mare, Aleppo, she's the only fatality from an ISIS mustard gas attack that gets listed by the VDC. (at least, as a CW victim, in any database)
- 10-31 Telbeiseh Homs
- 11-17 Damascus Suburbs
- 12-23 Damascus Suburbs
Possible/Sorta CW Incidents
After the March 24 incident proved so baseless, and this apparent new one of March 28 looks the same, I decided I won't start new pages unless warranted by some further evidence. All those reported from now could be entered with a sub-section here, and explored. Some might get their own page, others just that section here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
I completely forgot about this philosophy when starting the page on the shaky Alleged chemical attack, April 9, 2013. But the one four days later was more solid, has actual dead humans (two infants and a woman) and deserves its own page. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
March 28, Daraya
Youtube video I stumbled across: خطير داريا حالات اختناق بغازات الفوسفور جراء القصف 28-3-2013 (Gtrans: Darya cases of suffocation dangerous gases phosphorus shelling). Channel: DaryaRevlution coordinating city Darya Syrian revolution in Damascus, follow on Facebook. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Hezbollah is using these sectarian excuses to drag Lebanese youth into the Syrian conflict,” Almokdad said, urging Lebanon's Sunnis to rise up and help fight the Alawite regime and the Israeli-backed Shi'ite conspiracy. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Poison Gas Missile on Video!!!
Found at Right Side News (anti-war via anti-Obama) - an article with hits and misses, worth a look. On this, they say: '"Even if we examine the sources in Arabic we find that the reporting on this story is usually done by masters of confusion. For example, how can an FSA reporter film an exploded chemical rocket at a close distance and remain alive?"
By chanting Allahu Akbar, clearly. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:27, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- Jihadists, not Assad, apparently behind reported chemical attack in Syria – Anshel Pfeffer, March 24, 2013
- Building a Pretext for an All Out War against Syria? Allegations of Chemical Weapons Use
- Defense Secretary Hagel: Syria used chemical weapons
- BREAKING: US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel says the American intelligence community determined “with varying degrees of confidence that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons on a small scale in Syria, specifically the chemical agent sarin."
- Thanks for the news. Well, the Eisenhower routine is challenged by this. I was hit with a CNN link elsewhere.
- The White House cautioned that the "chain of custody" of the chemicals was not clear and that intelligence analysts could not confirm the circumstances under which the sarin was used, including the role of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's regime.
- But it's most likely the regime, they note. If the soil sample is real, etc. Are there any common chemicals mimic sarin in tests? For the blood samples, will loyalist prisoners be injected with antifreeze or something? And which incident/area is this? The one where NATO intel showed no Scud firing as rebels swear a Scud hit that regime-held area and gassed soldiers? Or is this Otaybah, where they couldn't even specify how many of what type of people died? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
- The effects of “Free Army” using to chemical weapon in Barzeh – April 28, 2013
- Chemical Weapons Charade in Syria – Sharmine Narwani
- U.S. believes Syria may have used chemical weapons; experts offer caution – April 28, 2013
Brown Moses today:
- Jabhat Al-Nusra Photographed With "Chemical Weapons" – 8 May 2013
- Jabhat Al Nusra with 'chemical weapons' – Ruig Photography
- Sarin gas: A closer look at the chemical weapon and its deadly effects – June 5, 2013
- CHRONOLOGY OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS THREATS, ATTACK, AND AN ABUNDANCE OF ORWELLIAN PROPAGANDA– Miri Wood, June 7, 2013
- Syria chemical weapons: has Obama's 'red line' been crossed? – Channel 4 News, 5 June 2013
- All attacks are blamed on the govermnment
- NYT, "More stupid questions than answers" Says the Obama admin's assertion of Sarin came just after, presumably from, the blood samples an opposition activist has drawn from Aleppo after Khan al-Assal. He even got a phone call from 'the government' saying congratulations, as they broke the news. So ... that rebel rocket that killed all those soldiers had sarin in it and that's why Assad maybe crossed the red line but let's be all cautious and stuff? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Red Cross denies reports of chemicals in Syria, Voice of Russia, June 17, 2013: Robert Mardini, ICRC’s Head of Operations for the Near and Middle East, as he spoke to Russian journalists at a Moscow conference [...] had no hard evidence that could prove either party in the conflict had used chemical weapons [...] had access to almost every Syrian region --CE (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Ataques químicos en Siria: la conexión turca Al-Manar, Spanish, August 31, 2015 - couldn't find an English version, skimmed Yandex's translation - seems to be a detailed piece connecting the Tkkim chemicals video to real rebel groups with Turkish support, covers Zahran Alloush and Ghouta, etc. Well worth adding here and even digesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
For readers, I am also named Adam Larson (real name) and I wrote this May 2 article at Global Research: Was the Syria Chemical Weapons Probe “Torpedoed” by the West?. It's been read and re-posted a bit. Just saw the following:
- Brown Moses, May 8: Comments On The Use Of Chemical Weapons In Syria
- I should start this post by saying that in the past I've found much of what's been posted on Global Research to[o] be far to conspiratorial for my liking, and in many cases just plain nonsense (for example this piece), so when I say this piece is a good round up of reports of chemical weapon use in Syria, it's not something I say lightly.
- As this post is a partly response to the article Was the Syria Chemical Weapons Probe “Torpedoed” by the West?, it's best to start giving that a read. While I may not agree with some of the conclusion the article draws,...
The critique is of technical aspects and my characterization of Khan al-Assal (which seem fair), leading into his interesting weapons correlation. Nothing on the main content, just riding my famous article's coat tails. :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Brown Moses on the Green Square issue. I have always found it best to steer away from Gaddafi supporters claiming that Green Square jubilation was a media hoax filmed in Qatar – days and weeks after Tripoli was taken. (Some people still seem to believe this.)
- As to rockets, BM is wrong in dismissing the ranges of BM-21 Grad projectiles. Some of these can fly over 40 km. The rocket in the video could also be some variation of the Palestinian / Hamas Qassam rocket. The Qassam 4 may have equal range. If Syria says the rocket was fired from "Al-Bab" it does not have to be 47km away, but whatever the closest rebel position is. Unless the Syrian Army establishes full control over Al-Bab, it is unlikely to be more then 20 km away. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Tighter, updated, improved edit drafted May 4. Was supposed to be run, but now online at the CIWCL site. A good read. Middle part has the "new" stuff, April 3-5. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
More polyethylene glycol?
- Syrian rebels' Damascus chemical cache found by Assad army - State TV – RT, July 14, 2013
- On July 7, the Syrian army confiscated “281 barrels filled with dangerous, hazardous chemical materials” that they found at a cache belonging to rebels in the city of Banias. The chemicals included monoethylene glycol and polyethylene glycol.
- Jobar (Damascus):
- A video shot by RT’s sister channel Russia Al Youm shows an old, partly ruined building which was set up as a laboratory. After entering the building, Syrian Army officers found scores of canisters and bags laid on the floor and tables. According to a warning sign on the bags, the “corrosive” substance was made in Saudi Arabia.
- FSA using a chemical warhead shell on civilian areas during the attack on Aleppo – Syrian Perspective, Jul 10, 2013
This has been identified as a "Hell Cannon" as they call it, homemade, Brown Moses has a page on these. They're firing rockets with propane tanks. Tanks could be filled with something else, or propane, can't really tell. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:53, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Channel 4 Snowblog?
- Nuclear Strikes On Syria: The Genie Is Already Out Of The Bottle – By Jon Snow, August 5, 2013
- Greg Thielmann, an expert on arms control policy supposedly says: “It’s not an issue, the insurgents are now armed with chemical weapons manufactured in Georgia exactly for this scenario. Assad’s pulse was tested in Khan Assal a week ago when an entire brigade was killed with chemical weapons and there was no response. We don’t see a likely response to further use of this tool.”
- Weird. I had seen that title on something else, I thought, but it was on this and I never looked close. Jon Snow apparently didn't stand behind it for long. Was he hacked? Let me read this. ... It doesn't sound right to me. Nuclear, chemical, brutal regime, "a remarkably delicious possibility," etc. He doesn't seem that senile at all on video. As for the Georgia CW, intriguing if I was trusting the source. I didn't even search Thielmann yet, let alone ask him if he said any of this. I presume he exists, to pass the initial test at least. As for a late-July CW attack, possible honest mix-up of the reports that soldiers were killed and also witnesses to a CW attack were killed. A doofus might think they had witnessed the CW attack that killed them just then as they witnessed it, and decide now was the time to get a mainstream regime-hating journalist to expose that, plus Israeli nuke attacks, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:22, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Greg Thielmann seems quite notable, he has two articles on Wikipdia :-) Petri Krohn (talk) 07:05, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
- Greg Thielmann served as a top intelligence official at the U.S. State Department until he resigned shortly before the U.S. invasion of Iraq and charged the George W. Bush administration with cooking its intelligence.
- Greg Theilmann was the acting director of the Office of Strategic Proliferation and Military Affairs at the U.S. State Department. He was the person responsible for analyzing the Iraqi weapons threat for Colin Powell. Theilmann is a member of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
- Greg Thielmann seems quite notable, he has two articles on Wikipdia :-) Petri Krohn (talk) 07:05, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Rebel CW possession?
June 2013 Kerry document?
- Obama’s Uncertain Path Amid Syria Bloodshed – MARK MAZZETTI, ROBERT F. WORTH and MICHAEL R. GORDON, The New York Times, October 22, 2013
- With rebel forces in Syria in retreat and the Obama administration’s policy toward the war-ravaged country in disarray, Secretary of State John Kerry arrived at the White House Situation Room one day in June with a document bearing a warning. President Bashar al-Assad of Syria had used chemical weapons against his people, the document said, and if the United States did not “impose consequences,” Mr. Assad would see it as a “green light for continued CW use.”
- The State Department’s June warning, laid out in a document obtained by The New York Times, proved to be prophetic...
Assorted Alleged Incidents
Jobar November 28 2013
First reports - probably faked, but who knows
- Hey, Charles, thanks. I've been meaning to say hi, by the way and it's technically Thanksgiving now, so happy one and hope you're too busy with food and family to respond. The video's not too impressive - "Damascus - Jobar: cases of suffocation as a result of exposure to toxic gases." Once again, some rebel fighters have found it hard to breathe. Generally, it could be bronchitis, fakery with inhalants or without, chemical accident while preparing to gas Alawites, white phosphorous or tear gas inhalation, etc. Worth scrutiny? What I do is check who's saying what. If anyone's making a big deal about it, might be. So far nothing I'm seeing, but in another day or so it might be worth checking again.
- SOHR Facebook - nothing yet.
- LCC: Huh, they seem to have stopped bothering with updates two months ago. People are leaving the theater here, so the film must be ending like it seems.
- VDC, all chemical deaths, most recent first: Nothing for Jobar yet. Most recently now, it shows two kids in Aleppo were killed by generator fumes. Another insidious regime method of martyring the children of Syria...
- Google News search - a bomb blew up just centimeters from some kids in Jobar about two days ago. Nothing on any chemical incident yet.
- Militants in Syria prepare chemical attack in Damascus – UN envoy – RT, April 01, 2014
- “Competent Syrian authorities intercepted a wireless communication between two terrorists in the Jawbar area of the Damascus governorate,”
- In that communication one “of the terrorists said that another terrorist named Abu Nadir was covertly distributing gas masks.”
- The Syrian security services also intercepted another communication between militants one of whom was called Abu Jihad. During that conversation, the latter indicated that toxic gas would be used and “asked those who are working with him to supply protective masks.”
April 24, 2014
A December 17, 2015 report of the OPCW fact-finding mission (PDF via the Trench) Page 18 shows a table of incidents mentioned by Syrian authorities in Note Verbale 47 and "elaboration of 6 incidents reported in Note Verbale 41." The first entry is especially interesting in listing fatalities instead of the more vague casualties. And it cites quite a few.
- 1. date: 24/04/2014
- Location: Dar’a – Nawa
- Number of Casualties: 70 fatalities
- Comments: A brief description of the incident.
Alleged Chemical Weapon Attack on Al-Lataminah
Bellingcat did a piece on this Alleged Chemical Weapon Attack on Al-Lataminah that in usual style gets a few things wrong.
First of all, most of the detonations seen have significant quantities of the usual SyAAF bomb mixture - C/ANFO. Significant as in many tens to hundreds of kilos. This contrasts with the the earlier allegations of Syrian aerial chlorine bombs being gas cylinders with det-cord wrapped around the necks - which is the logical way to do it. NB At one stage in the video 4 collage there is video of the aftermath of a TNT bomb (Russian?). That whole video looks suspiciously like a random grab-bag of bomb videos from different times and dates plastered together for theatrical effect.
Given we have a big C/ANFO explosion with a cylinder of chlorine somehow entrained, we end up with a very hot strongly oxidising atmosphere of nitrogen oxides and oxygen mixed in with chlorine. Whatever chemical witches brew that makes, it's all very hot and with an average density well below normal atmosphere. So it rises irrespective of any free chlorine. Think of fluffy white clouds in the sky which are made up of water droplets significantly heavier than air, yet they rise in thunderstorms to 20,000 feet.
Simply put the chlorine ain't going to neatly separate from the explosion and flow along the ground. It's going to head skywards.
Regarding quantity of smoke. The biggest chlorine cylinder that might conceivably fit inside a helicopter bomb is 50kg - see chlorine cylinder specification which is aound 6 ft high and 9 inches diameter. (1700 x 230). 50 kg is certainly nowhere near enough to produce the huge clouds seen.
Regarding color, only pure nitrogen dioxide is red. ANFO inevitable produces beige smoke because it's not pure NO2 and there are other Nitrogen oxides, intermediaries, and dust involved. Thus we have in almost every SyAAF bomb and insurgent bomb a beige to yellow smoke cloud. (Rarely there will be a black TNT bomb, and even more rarely a white explosive (RDX?).
So what is the cloud hugging the ground in some of the videos? Almost certainly it's ground dust dislodged by the blast shockwave outside of the plume (mushroom cloud) induction zone. It's the end of summer. The ground is parched. You see similar effects in urban areas where large amounts of concrete dust are raised and blanket the neighbourhood when a bomb goes off.
Conclusion: The BCat article hypothesis is technically impossible. The videos have been carefully selected and edited, and the usual trope of claiming yellowish smoke or dust to be chlorine is recycled yet again.
The very fact that this has hardly come up yet is supposed to add to the chill when it finally dawns on you. "Of course! The chemicals that don't add up were just to distract us from the bioweapons!" False flag groundwork being laid by mainly Israeli media reports, or so notes Mimi, Syrian Girl Partisan, in [Syria Deir Attiya hospital Christian this new video]. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
- Battle near Syrian chemical facility endangers disarmament process – RT, December 20, 2013
- “The fighting between the Syrian government troops and militants from the Al-Nusra Front and the Army of Islam goes on just about 100 meters away from a chemical facility in Sukkari neighborhood in Homs Governorate,” the statement by the Foreign Ministry said.
- Militants’ raids on chemical weapons storage sites look like preplanned action - Russia – Voice of Russia, 25 December 2013
- Attacks by Syrian militants on chemical weapons storage facilities look like a pre-planned, determined action, Mikhail Ulyanov, deputy head of the Russian Foreign Ministry’s Department for Security and Disarmament, said on Wednesday.
- “There have been frequent attacks by militants on chemical weapons storage sites lately. One gets the impression that this is a determined effort aimed at disrupting the operation,” he said.
- Strelkov talked about chemical attack by Ukrainian military – LifeNews, 30 June 2014
- Chief of the chief of the Army of the Southeast Igor Strelkov confirmed the use of chemical weapons by the Ukrainian army. According to him, today in Slavyansk poisoned three people. He added that if the militias have not had gas masks, the number of victims would have been much larger.
- Ukrainian army has used chemical weapons during the shelling Sloviansk – LifeNews, 30 June 2014
- Militias Slovyansk claim that security forces controlled Kiev again used chemical weapons in the vicinity of the city. Deputy commander of the militia Donetsk Igor Strelkov said on June 30 that the hospital Sloviansk after firing its suburbs security forces began to receive people with symptoms of poisoning by chlorine.
- - Another blow was struck on the territory of Insulators and Fittings Plant, - reported in the militia. - One of the volunteers received chemical poisoning, in serious condition, he was taken to hospital. We take samples are going to present them as evidence, - said Deputy Strelkova.
- According to hospital nurse Olga, the victim observed mucous membranes, throat and nose. Most concerned about the state of her patient's eye. Judging by the common symptoms is chlorine poisoning. Samples were taken, it now appears the exact composition of the chemical, she added.
- Chemical attack by Ukrainian troops reported in Slavyansk - self-defense – Voice of Russia, 30 June 2014
This article (in Finnish) suggests that the Russian invaders used chemical weapons in taking the new terminal at the Donetsk Airport.
- Tutkija: Ukrainan tilanne pahempi kuin koskaan sitten elokuun - Ilta-Sanomat, 22.1.2015
Idlib March 2015
Gulf War syndrome
Interesting new revelations coming out on the Gulf War syndrome. 200,000 U.S. troops were exposed to Sarin.
- U.S. Nerve Gas Hit Our Own Troops in Iraq - BARBARA KOEPPEL, Newsweek, 3/27/15
HRW Chlorine Reports
Reports by Human Rights Watch on chlorine use:
- May, 2014
- April, 2015
- June, 2015
- September, 2016
- Report #5, Feb. 13, 2017: Syria: Coordinated Chemical Attacks on Aleppo - outlines a supposed campaign of chlorine attacks in East Aleppo during the government's reclamation of it over November and December. Total: 8-10 civilians killed, zero fighters hit or apparently aimed for. Suria and Russia deny. HRW calls for further UNSC sanctions.
- My rebuttal and assessment - the main theme is how little sense it makes that people keep just sitting there and dying in case after case, including an entire family of six. Most would flee the choking gas, since you don't pass out or anything. But here, activists seem to think you pass out and just lay there, and they say that happens about half the time so someone dies. Also, one attack scene is fake, there's still no video of the actual bomb drop, between 8 analyzed cases, there are confused reports, and the whole notion is illogical. And HRW has missed some chlorine clues recently, and also going way the hell back. --Caustic Logic (talk) 16:12, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
- Note: that was a very rough start, now better organized, most typos fixed, points added, and it's still not quite done yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:02, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
This probably deserves a page for Alleged Chemical Attacks in Aleppo, November and December, 2016 to cover the report and the incidents. Will try and start that soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:02, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- Talk:Alleged Chemical Attacks in Aleppo, November and December, 2016 and there'll be a main page soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- Moved to Poisoning of Sergei Skripal