https://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Q&feedformat=atomA Closer Look On Syria - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T12:05:08ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.13https://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37537Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-13T20:34:31Z<p>Q: Five injured journalists</p>
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<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
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Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
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That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
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Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
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The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
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Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
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First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
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:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
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== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
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== Injured journalists ==<br />
Syrian Center for Media and freedom of speech names 5 injured journalists [https://scm.bz/violations/عشرات-القتلى-ومئات-الجرحى-بينهم-خمسة-إ.html in their report]:<br />
*Abdul Qader Bakri correspondent for [http://qasioun.net Qasioun News Agency] <br />
**Qasioun also [http://qasioun.net/en/news/show/59723/Qasioun_Correspondent_Was_Injured_By_The_Chemical_Attack_On_Khan_Sheikon reported] it.<br />
*Mohamed Hassan al-Daghim([https://www.facebook.com/dughaim facebook]), correspondent for [https://www.halabtoday.org/ Halab Today]<br />
**Halab Today's [https://www.facebook.com/HalabTodayTV/photos/a.422583204425790.121836.353338088016969/1730524480298316/?type=3&theater report] <br />
*Abdo Qantar, correspondent for [http://aa.com.tr Anadolu Agency] and [https://www.zamanalwsl.net Zaman al-Wasl]<br />
**Anadolu's [http://aa.com.tr/en/corporate-news/anadolu-agency-reporter-recalls-horror-of-idlib-attack/790051 report]<br />
*Hassan Kayali, correspondent for [http://www.edlib-emc.net Edlib Media Center]<br />
*Anas Diab, works for [http://www.amc-sy.net/ Aleppo Media Center] and the White Helmets, if I understand the machine translations correctly<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:34, 13 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
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The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
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::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
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'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
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;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
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[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
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==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
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:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|thumb|Dead family members at the al-Youssef house. ''Photo by Alaa (Alyousef).'']]<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ALIVE - Fatima Elwan(F) ALIVE<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Female Sibling(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
**Unknown sibling(probably female) - Unknown sibling of Sanae Haj Ali<br />
***Aya Fadl ___ (25F) ALIVE - [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Alaa_al-Yousef| Alaa al-Yousef]](27M) ALIVE - Alaa is the cousin of Abdul Hamid al-Yousef <br />
****Najdat Alaa al-Yousef (1-2M) ALIVE<br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD - Najeeb Khairo al-Jawhar(62M) DEAD<br />
**Hala Najeeb al-Jawhar ??? - Mohammad ___ al-Mere'e ???<br />
***Mayar Mohammad al-Mere'e(5M) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Najeeb al-Jawhar(?M) ALIVE - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs interview]<br />
*[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdelqader_Al-Yousef| Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE <br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Alaa provided [[:File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|this photo]] of dead family members at the al-Youssef house to the Danish newspaper ''Politiken''. He says he is a member of the family. I suppose Alaa is Alaa Alyousef the promoter. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Thanks Andrew, it was a good tip, I added Alaa and his family(I'm not sure who the old man is, but I'll keep him in mind). I also added Abdulqader al-Yousef and Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef's family(they are not strictly Yousefs, but I think they have a place in this list) --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::We shouldn't rule out the possibility that Amira is al-Saleh by birth(probably even related to their husband), and it's just a coincidence that both of them have the same family name. Also, when the old man in the BBC video says "Amira Saleh's children were here", I think he means that they were there at that moment, not that they lived there. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 18:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::Good call. I almost came back to mention that myself, glad to see someone else think the same. Some names are generally common, some may be on 50% of the people in some areas, with close, distant, unrelated, and unknown relations mixed. I think your al-Yousef list shows a Yousef marrying a Yousef, so you can't say which name (in her heart) she really kept. Saleh could be the same, it's generally common. This was never a proof kind of point anyway, and this adds another question mark. But it remains a ''possibly'' important clue. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:21, 8 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-2-1.jpg&diff=37530File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-2-1.jpg2017-05-13T17:30:50Z<p>Q: Added a video that shows the same room</p>
<hr />
<div>Inside view of a bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
;Source <br />
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]<br />
<br />
;Location<br />
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]<br />
<br />
;Photos/videos from the same place<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhCi6QG5a-s Collecting evidence of a chemical weapon in Khan Sheikhoun] - Syrian Institute for Justice<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-2-2.jpg&diff=37529File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-2-2.jpg2017-05-13T17:14:13Z<p>Q: Description + minor fix</p>
<hr />
<div>Outside view of a bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
;Source <br />
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]<br />
<br />
;Location<br />
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-2-1.jpg&diff=37528File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-2-1.jpg2017-05-13T17:13:14Z<p>Q: Description + minor fix</p>
<hr />
<div>Inside view of a bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
;Source <br />
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]<br />
<br />
;Location<br />
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-3-1.jpg&diff=37527File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-3-1.jpg2017-05-13T17:10:55Z<p>Q: Outside view of a bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.
;Source
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]
;Location
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.438226&lon=36.644297&z=18&m=b (35.438226,36.644297)]
[[Catego...</p>
<hr />
<div>Outside view of a bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
;Source <br />
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]<br />
<br />
;Location<br />
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.438226&lon=36.644297&z=18&m=b (35.438226,36.644297)]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-2-2.jpg&diff=37526File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-2-2.jpg2017-05-13T17:05:28Z<p>Q: ;Source
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]
;Location
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]
Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack</p>
<hr />
<div>;Source <br />
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]<br />
<br />
;Location<br />
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-2-1.jpg&diff=37525File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-2-1.jpg2017-05-13T17:03:45Z<p>Q: ;Source
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]
;Location
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]
Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack</p>
<hr />
<div>;Source <br />
*[https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 Malachy Browne on Twitter]<br />
<br />
;Location<br />
*[http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448089&lon=36.646260&z=19&m=b (35.448089,36.646260)]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37523Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-13T16:54:16Z<p>Q: /* Scene Overview */ - Likely not a new location</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
<br />
== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' has posted [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/videos/10154250216240583/ a video] from the hospital cave from April 6th, two days after it was bombed. The place has been abandoned. I see no attempt to clean up after the blast. I am starting to think that the bombing was staged. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Reuters claims that [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-4-1.jpg|this photo]] shows a bombed house, but the surroundings don't look anything similar to the other [https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 3 locations] we already have. I could swear that I have seen the interior of this house in a video somewhere, but I can't find it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:11, 13 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:The more I look at this, the more similar it looks to the southern [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-07uQiXkAAKRjy.jpg bombed house], the white star on the ceiling and the wooded things on the walls suggest that the two rooms are the same. The photo from NYT most likely shows a much later state, it would explain the lack of furniture and the differences in debris placement --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:53, 13 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
:: Added to the map now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
See also [[#BBC link victims to houses]] below for three more identified homes a bit to the southwest of these. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
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::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
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::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wind Direction decided:''' Charles and I discussed this some, and I decided the winds is southwest, and blows TO the northeast, 45-50 degrees or, as this slightly too-early graphic shows, 45-55 with a broader range of 20 to 70 degrees possible. See [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/05/idlib-chemical-massacre-when-and-where.html Idlib Chemical Massacre: The When and Where] for this and other geo-temporal findings. The significance of that to the alleged sarin spread to those homes is pretty evidently a mismatch. In fact, those homes are in exactly the opposite direction of the wind. That could be a total coincidence, or could actually be someone deciding where to say people died based it on an accurate wind reading - read backwards, like Postol did. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun Wind Direction vs. allegations.jpg|center|1000px]]<br />
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Good work, but I don't agree with this wind direction estimation. I can see some movement to the left in the video from the northern filming location, and there is also a strong movement to the right in the NYT video from the [https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/859361695671693312 other filming location] in the SW edge of the town. Any wind below 54° azimuth would cause the fume from the 2nd strike to move towards the left side in the NYT video, but we see the exact opposite. As I see it, the movement is more pronounced in the NYT video than in the other one, at least near the base of the plumes. Overall, the wind direction should be somewhere in the [https://s28.postimg.org/jajaam6vx/wind_rough.jpg 68° - 144°] range, likely closer to 144° than 68°. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Was not following all details and getting a bit confused; do we know where cameras were, and how do we know that? Kobs placing one camera to the North--why? There are two different episodes in NYT video (below), which one we discuss? (first, 0:50, second, around 1:38). I propose to collect separately what is that we see in each case, and what else we know from elsewhere. I'd say, in both cases the Sun (=East, for simplicity) is to our left. That means, we are North from whatever we observe, in both episodes (in the second one, we are close to be looking at the Sun position, less so in the first episode). We see movement to the left (and apparently away) in the first episode, and to the right and definitely away in the second one. Do we observe the same thing? --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 23:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah, I did not specify that I was talking about the part starting at 01:33 in the NYT video. The footage seen in first segment(at 00:50) was [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs originally uploaded] by a man named 'Mohammad Saloum', [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/849668664060260354 Bellingcat geolocated it], the northern camera position in Kobs's and [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|CL's map]] refers to that video. The second segment in the NYT video contains 3 clips, all of them were filmed from the same location. The camera is facing NE in the first(01:33) and the third(01:44) clip, in the second clip(01:38) it's facing ESE, [[:File:Khan_Sheikhoun_camera_angles_by_Michael_Kobs.jpg|Kobs placed this camera]] on the W edge of the town. So, to reiterate what I said in my previous post, I see the fumes moving to the right in the [[:File:72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4_snapshot_01.3.jpg|NYT video at 01:33]], I can also some movement to the left [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs in this video] in the same area, and based on these observations I place the wind direction in the [https://s17.postimg.org/sgkkoor33/KS_wind_2.png 68° - 144° azimuth] range. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 14:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Curious what [https://www.worldweatheronline.com/khan-sheikhoun-weather-history/idlib/sy.aspx weather report] gives (perhaps not observation based but anyway): 2 mph SE at 6 am (here seems consistent), changing to stronger E/ENE wind past 9 am --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 16:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: It's not a weather report. It's computer generated data using a proprietary computer model operated by WWO See [https://developer.worldweatheronline.com/api/faq.aspx WWO FAQ]. It turns out the model for KS is mostly based on data from Basel al-Assad airport about 60k West of KS. The airport is 350 m lower in elevation so a lot warmer, and the wind there was a 'land breeze' blowing straight out to sea due to temperature difference between sea and land (the opposite of a sea breeze).<br />
<br />
: Regional winds based on the European isobar map indicate very light air flow over all of Syria coming from the North. However, the wind speeds are so low local variations in just about any direction are possible. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 23:01, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, it might be useful information that the bomb from the second strike most likely exploded in closed space, see [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg| image]]. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhCi6QG5a-s video from inside], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu8De4ELknU video from outside](at 01:18). The fumes from this explosion could only leave the room through the door/window in the northern side, or through the hole in the ceiling. I'm not sure how these circumstances affected the shape of the second plume, but I think the fumes raised with more power initially because all the trapped hot air in the room wanted to escape through one exit point. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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Question on [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/849668664060260354 BC geolocation] (did anybody checked it? ) . Camera is North from what we see Sun is on the left, but it can be anywhere. Lines he draws are essentially parallel (we are essentially at infinity) and may go anywhere you want. It needs to be fit of distortions of visible distances between objects, or comparing visible heights with actual heights (which we do not know). Was any of that done, or else how it was placed wherever it was placed? Don't have time at the moment for doing it. It may not tell very much, but if we are to draw our wind directions ourselves, some of that sort needs doing. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 15:32, 12 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Fog?===<br />
Crude (and possibly nonsensical) estimate: estimate drop size by the condition that wind drag on spherical droplet is roughly equal gravity force ; obtain radius r = (3/4) D (v^/(2g)) (rho_a/rho_sar) ~ 0.03 mm (too small ? or what? ). Then take 'fog' of visible size L to mean that on distance L you are sure to hit q ~ 1 droplet . That means, L Pi r^2 (N/V) ~ q, with N = V_sar/(4/3 pi r^3) and V ~ L^2 h, h --fog height. That gives , L~V_sar/(4/3 r h q); taking V_sar of 0.25 m^3, h = 15 m, q=1, gives L < = 400 m = visible fog size of ODAB 500 converted to CW. (Any better ideas about such sort of estimate?). I think we see some 1-1.5 km of fog on the vids (Alternative to that is to see attenuation length of water at size L, but that is some 20 meters of water to be seen, and will not work at all, unless sar is much more absorbent than water. So, decided that hitting few scatters means opaque enough. Unsure what proffi do here)<br />
:If only 1/2 of 250 or so liters goes up the air, and 2 scatters needed for opaque, get L~ 100 m, etc... --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 17:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:(In reality, more complicated; this estimates size of droplets which will drop down, really, smaller ones may still float, this is saying those are comparable, Will look more into this when will get some time; if there are better ideas, appreciated. Have seen sizes 50 micrometers for initial ice particles sizes in clouds, this is comparable; but sarin will stay liquid. For water, somehow it takes -40 C for droplets to uniformly freeze, otherwise phases will coexist)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 09:30, 11 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took (marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There he saw the kids (dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly) [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of (~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened (started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Who is Abu al-Baraa? Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' [https://twitter.com/JohnDelacour/status/858814935459127297 claims] he spoke to him. Note, that Amira / Ameerah = al-Meerah ~ Abeerah ~ al-Baraa. The "L" is not pronounced when it precedes a consonant. Instead it adapts the same sound. -- 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37522Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-13T16:11:44Z<p>Q: /* Scene Overview */ - 4th bombed house?</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
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== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' has posted [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/videos/10154250216240583/ a video] from the hospital cave from April 6th, two days after it was bombed. The place has been abandoned. I see no attempt to clean up after the blast. I am starting to think that the bombing was staged. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Reuters claims that [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-4-1.jpg|this photo]] shows a bombed house, but the surroundings don't look anything similar to the other [https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/status/859408781679243265 3 locations] we already have. I could swear that I have seen the interior of this house in a video somewhere, but I can't find it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:11, 13 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
:: Added to the map now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
See also [[#BBC link victims to houses]] below for three more identified homes a bit to the southwest of these. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
<br />
::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
<br />
::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Wind Direction decided:''' Charles and I discussed this some, and I decided the winds is southwest, and blows TO the northeast, 45-50 degrees or, as this slightly too-early graphic shows, 45-55 with a broader range of 20 to 70 degrees possible. See [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/05/idlib-chemical-massacre-when-and-where.html Idlib Chemical Massacre: The When and Where] for this and other geo-temporal findings. The significance of that to the alleged sarin spread to those homes is pretty evidently a mismatch. In fact, those homes are in exactly the opposite direction of the wind. That could be a total coincidence, or could actually be someone deciding where to say people died based it on an accurate wind reading - read backwards, like Postol did. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun Wind Direction vs. allegations.jpg|center|1000px]]<br />
<br />
Good work, but I don't agree with this wind direction estimation. I can see some movement to the left in the video from the northern filming location, and there is also a strong movement to the right in the NYT video from the [https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/859361695671693312 other filming location] in the SW edge of the town. Any wind below 54° azimuth would cause the fume from the 2nd strike to move towards the left side in the NYT video, but we see the exact opposite. As I see it, the movement is more pronounced in the NYT video than in the other one, at least near the base of the plumes. Overall, the wind direction should be somewhere in the [https://s28.postimg.org/jajaam6vx/wind_rough.jpg 68° - 144°] range, likely closer to 144° than 68°. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Was not following all details and getting a bit confused; do we know where cameras were, and how do we know that? Kobs placing one camera to the North--why? There are two different episodes in NYT video (below), which one we discuss? (first, 0:50, second, around 1:38). I propose to collect separately what is that we see in each case, and what else we know from elsewhere. I'd say, in both cases the Sun (=East, for simplicity) is to our left. That means, we are North from whatever we observe, in both episodes (in the second one, we are close to be looking at the Sun position, less so in the first episode). We see movement to the left (and apparently away) in the first episode, and to the right and definitely away in the second one. Do we observe the same thing? --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 23:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah, I did not specify that I was talking about the part starting at 01:33 in the NYT video. The footage seen in first segment(at 00:50) was [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs originally uploaded] by a man named 'Mohammad Saloum', [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/849668664060260354 Bellingcat geolocated it], the northern camera position in Kobs's and [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|CL's map]] refers to that video. The second segment in the NYT video contains 3 clips, all of them were filmed from the same location. The camera is facing NE in the first(01:33) and the third(01:44) clip, in the second clip(01:38) it's facing ESE, [[:File:Khan_Sheikhoun_camera_angles_by_Michael_Kobs.jpg|Kobs placed this camera]] on the W edge of the town. So, to reiterate what I said in my previous post, I see the fumes moving to the right in the [[:File:72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4_snapshot_01.3.jpg|NYT video at 01:33]], I can also some movement to the left [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs in this video] in the same area, and based on these observations I place the wind direction in the [https://s17.postimg.org/sgkkoor33/KS_wind_2.png 68° - 144° azimuth] range. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 14:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Curious what [https://www.worldweatheronline.com/khan-sheikhoun-weather-history/idlib/sy.aspx weather report] gives (perhaps not observation based but anyway): 2 mph SE at 6 am (here seems consistent), changing to stronger E/ENE wind past 9 am --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 16:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: It's not a weather report. It's computer generated data using a proprietary computer model operated by WWO See [https://developer.worldweatheronline.com/api/faq.aspx WWO FAQ]. It turns out the model for KS is mostly based on data from Basel al-Assad airport about 60k West of KS. The airport is 350 m lower in elevation so a lot warmer, and the wind there was a 'land breeze' blowing straight out to sea due to temperature difference between sea and land (the opposite of a sea breeze).<br />
<br />
: Regional winds based on the European isobar map indicate very light air flow over all of Syria coming from the North. However, the wind speeds are so low local variations in just about any direction are possible. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 23:01, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, it might be useful information that the bomb from the second strike most likely exploded in closed space, see [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg| image]]. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhCi6QG5a-s video from inside], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu8De4ELknU video from outside](at 01:18). The fumes from this explosion could only leave the room through the door/window in the northern side, or through the hole in the ceiling. I'm not sure how these circumstances affected the shape of the second plume, but I think the fumes raised with more power initially because all the trapped hot air in the room wanted to escape through one exit point. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Question on [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/849668664060260354 BC geolocation] (did anybody checked it? ) . Camera is North from what we see Sun is on the left, but it can be anywhere. Lines he draws are essentially parallel (we are essentially at infinity) and may go anywhere you want. It needs to be fit of distortions of visible distances between objects, or comparing visible heights with actual heights (which we do not know). Was any of that done, or else how it was placed wherever it was placed? Don't have time at the moment for doing it. It may not tell very much, but if we are to draw our wind directions ourselves, some of that sort needs doing. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 15:32, 12 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Fog?===<br />
Crude (and possibly nonsensical) estimate: estimate drop size by the condition that wind drag on spherical droplet is roughly equal gravity force ; obtain radius r = (3/4) D (v^/(2g)) (rho_a/rho_sar) ~ 0.03 mm (too small ? or what? ). Then take 'fog' of visible size L to mean that on distance L you are sure to hit q ~ 1 droplet . That means, L Pi r^2 (N/V) ~ q, with N = V_sar/(4/3 pi r^3) and V ~ L^2 h, h --fog height. That gives , L~V_sar/(4/3 r h q); taking V_sar of 0.25 m^3, h = 15 m, q=1, gives L < = 400 m = visible fog size of ODAB 500 converted to CW. (Any better ideas about such sort of estimate?). I think we see some 1-1.5 km of fog on the vids (Alternative to that is to see attenuation length of water at size L, but that is some 20 meters of water to be seen, and will not work at all, unless sar is much more absorbent than water. So, decided that hitting few scatters means opaque enough. Unsure what proffi do here)<br />
:If only 1/2 of 250 or so liters goes up the air, and 2 scatters needed for opaque, get L~ 100 m, etc... --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 17:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:(In reality, more complicated; this estimates size of droplets which will drop down, really, smaller ones may still float, this is saying those are comparable, Will look more into this when will get some time; if there are better ideas, appreciated. Have seen sizes 50 micrometers for initial ice particles sizes in clouds, this is comparable; but sarin will stay liquid. For water, somehow it takes -40 C for droplets to uniformly freeze, otherwise phases will coexist)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 09:30, 11 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took (marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There he saw the kids (dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly) [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of (~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened (started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Who is Abu al-Baraa? Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' [https://twitter.com/JohnDelacour/status/858814935459127297 claims] he spoke to him. Note, that Amira / Ameerah = al-Meerah ~ Abeerah ~ al-Baraa. The "L" is not pronounced when it precedes a consonant. Instead it adapts the same sound. -- 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-4-1.jpg&diff=37521File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-4-1.jpg2017-05-13T15:59:04Z<p>Q: formatting</p>
<hr />
<div>Unidentified bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
;Sources<br />
*Original source: [http://pictures.reuters.com/archive/MIDEAST-CRISIS-SYRIA-ATTACK-RC1F8F3B20B0.html A general view shows damage at a site hit by airstrikes on Tuesday in the town of Khan Sheikhoun in rebel-held Idlib, Syria April 5, 2017. REUTERS/Ammar Abdullah]<br />
<br />
*[https://www.dr.dk/images/other/2017/04/08/scanpix-20170405-150407-4.jpg Source of this file]<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_bombed_house-4-1.jpg&diff=37520File:Khan Sheikhun chemical bombed house-4-1.jpg2017-05-13T15:57:09Z<p>Q: Unidentified bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.
*Sources
Original source [http://pictures.reuters.com/archive/MIDEAST-CRISIS-SYRIA-ATTACK-RC1F8F3B20B0.html A general view shows damage at a site hit by airstrikes on Tuesday in the town of Khan Sheikhoun in...</p>
<hr />
<div>Unidentified bombed house in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
*Sources<br />
Original source [http://pictures.reuters.com/archive/MIDEAST-CRISIS-SYRIA-ATTACK-RC1F8F3B20B0.html A general view shows damage at a site hit by airstrikes on Tuesday in the town of Khan Sheikhoun in rebel-held Idlib, Syria April 5, 2017. REUTERS/Ammar Abdullah]<br />
<br />
[https://www.dr.dk/images/other/2017/04/08/scanpix-20170405-150407-4.jpg Source of this file]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_HRW_map.jpg&diff=37426File:Khan Sheikhun chemical HRW map.jpg2017-05-11T18:05:13Z<p>Q: Q uploaded a new version of File:Khan Sheikhun chemical HRW map.jpg</p>
<hr />
<div>Remake of the map used by Human Rights Watch that shows several unidentified locations in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
;Source<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use], at 00:51<br />
;Legend<br />
:''Q, can you please put numbers on dots for identification? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37387Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-10T14:49:36Z<p>Q: /* Weather & gas extent */ sign</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
<br />
== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' has posted [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/videos/10154250216240583/ a video] from the hospital cave from April 6th, two days after it was bombed. The place has been abandoned. I see no attempt to clean up after the blast. I am starting to think that the bombing was staged. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
:: Added to the map now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
See also [[#BBC link victims to houses]] below for three more identified homes a bit to the southwest of these. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
<br />
::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
<br />
::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Wind Direction decided:''' Charles and I discussed this some, and I decided the winds is southwest, and blows TO the northeast, 45-50 degrees or, as this slightly too-early graphic shows, 45-55 with a broader range of 20 to 70 degrees possible. See [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/05/idlib-chemical-massacre-when-and-where.html Idlib Chemical Massacre: The When and Where] for this and other geo-temporal findings. The significance of that to the alleged sarin spread to those homes is pretty evidently a mismatch. In fact, those homes are in exactly the opposite direction of the wind. That could be a total coincidence, or could actually be someone deciding where to say people died based it on an accurate wind reading - read backwards, like Postol did. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun Wind Direction vs. allegations.jpg|center|1000px]]<br />
<br />
Good work, but I don't agree with this wind direction estimation. I can see some movement to the left in the video from the northern filming location, and there is also a strong movement to the right in the NYT video from the [https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/859361695671693312 other filming location] in the SW edge of the town. Any wind below 54° azimuth would cause the fume from the 2nd strike to move towards the left side in the NYT video, but we see the exact opposite. As I see it, the movement is more pronounced in the NYT video than in the other one, at least near the base of the plumes. Overall, the wind direction should be somewhere in the [https://s28.postimg.org/jajaam6vx/wind_rough.jpg 68° - 144°] range, likely closer to 144° than 68°. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Was not following all details and getting a bit confused; do we know where cameras were, and how do we know that? Kobs placing one camera to the North--why? There are two different episodes in NYT video (below), which one we discuss? (first, 0:50, second, around 1:38). I propose to collect separately what is that we see in each case, and what else we know from elsewhere. I'd say, in both cases the Sun (=East, for simplicity) is to our left. That means, we are South from whatever we observe, in both episodes (in the second one, we are close to be looking at the Sun position, less so in the first episode). We see movement to the left (and apparently away) in the first episode, and to the right and definitely away in the second one. Do we observe the same thing? --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 23:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah, I did not specify that I was talking about the part starting at 01:33 in the NYT video. The footage seen in first segment(at 00:50) was [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs originally uploaded] by a man named 'Mohammad Saloum', [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/849668664060260354 Bellingcat geolocated it], the northern camera position in Kobs's and [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|CL's map]] refers to that video. The second segment in the NYT video contains 3 clips, all of them were filmed from the same location. The camera is facing NE in the first(01:33) and the third(01:44) clip, in the second clip(01:38) it's facing ESE, [[:File:Khan_Sheikhoun_camera_angles_by_Michael_Kobs.jpg|Kobs placed this camera]] on the W edge of the town. So, to reiterate what I said in my previous post, I see the fumes moving to the right in the [[:File:72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4_snapshot_01.3.jpg|NYT video at 01:33]], I can also some movement to the left [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs in this video] in the same area, and based on these observations I place the wind direction in the [https://s17.postimg.org/sgkkoor33/KS_wind_2.png 68° - 144° azimuth] range. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 14:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, it might be useful information that the bomb from the second strike most likely exploded in closed space, see [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg| image]]. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhCi6QG5a-s video from inside], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu8De4ELknU video from outside](at 01:18). The fumes from this explosion could only leave the room through the door/window in the northern side, or through the hole in the ceiling. I'm not sure how these circumstances affected the shape of the second plume, but I think the fumes raised with more power initially because all the trapped hot air in the room wanted to escape through one exit point. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took (marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There he saw the kids (dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly) [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of (~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened (started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Who is Abu al-Baraa? Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' [https://twitter.com/JohnDelacour/status/858814935459127297 claims] he spoke to him. Note, that Amira / Ameerah = al-Meerah ~ Abeerah ~ al-Baraa. The "L" is not pronounced when it precedes a consonant. Instead it adapts the same sound. -- 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37386Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-10T14:47:07Z<p>Q: /* Weather & gas extent */ - Re:Resup</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
<br />
== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' has posted [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/videos/10154250216240583/ a video] from the hospital cave from April 6th, two days after it was bombed. The place has been abandoned. I see no attempt to clean up after the blast. I am starting to think that the bombing was staged. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
:: Added to the map now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
See also [[#BBC link victims to houses]] below for three more identified homes a bit to the southwest of these. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
<br />
::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
<br />
::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Wind Direction decided:''' Charles and I discussed this some, and I decided the winds is southwest, and blows TO the northeast, 45-50 degrees or, as this slightly too-early graphic shows, 45-55 with a broader range of 20 to 70 degrees possible. See [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/05/idlib-chemical-massacre-when-and-where.html Idlib Chemical Massacre: The When and Where] for this and other geo-temporal findings. The significance of that to the alleged sarin spread to those homes is pretty evidently a mismatch. In fact, those homes are in exactly the opposite direction of the wind. That could be a total coincidence, or could actually be someone deciding where to say people died based it on an accurate wind reading - read backwards, like Postol did. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun Wind Direction vs. allegations.jpg|center|1000px]]<br />
<br />
Good work, but I don't agree with this wind direction estimation. I can see some movement to the left in the video from the northern filming location, and there is also a strong movement to the right in the NYT video from the [https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/859361695671693312 other filming location] in the SW edge of the town. Any wind below 54° azimuth would cause the fume from the 2nd strike to move towards the left side in the NYT video, but we see the exact opposite. As I see it, the movement is more pronounced in the NYT video than in the other one, at least near the base of the plumes. Overall, the wind direction should be somewhere in the [https://s28.postimg.org/jajaam6vx/wind_rough.jpg 68° - 144°] range, likely closer to 144° than 68°. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Was not following all details and getting a bit confused; do we know where cameras were, and how do we know that? Kobs placing one camera to the North--why? There are two different episodes in NYT video (below), which one we discuss? (first, 0:50, second, around 1:38). I propose to collect separately what is that we see in each case, and what else we know from elsewhere. I'd say, in both cases the Sun (=East, for simplicity) is to our left. That means, we are South from whatever we observe, in both episodes (in the second one, we are close to be looking at the Sun position, less so in the first episode). We see movement to the left (and apparently away) in the first episode, and to the right and definitely away in the second one. Do we observe the same thing? --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 23:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Yeah, I did not specify that I was talking about the part starting at 01:33 in the NYT video. The footage seen in first segment(at 00:50) was [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs originally uploaded] by a man named 'Mohammad Saloum', [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/849668664060260354 Bellingcat geolocated it], the northern camera position in Kobs's and [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|CL's map]] refers to that video. The second segment in the NYT video contains 3 clips, all of them were filmed from the same location. The camera is facing NE in the first(01:33) and the third(01:44) clip, in the second clip(01:38) it's facing ESE, [[:File:Khan_Sheikhoun_camera_angles_by_Michael_Kobs.jpg|Kobs placed this camera]] on the W edge of the town. So, to reiterate what I said in my previous post, I see the fumes moving to the right in the [[:File:72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4_snapshot_01.3.jpg|NYT video at 01:33]], I can also some movement to the left [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs in this video] in the same area, and based on these observations I place the wind direction in the [https://s17.postimg.org/sgkkoor33/KS_wind_2.png 68° - 144° azimuth] range.<br />
<br />
Also, it might be useful information that the bomb from the second strike most likely exploded in closed space, see [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg| image]]. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhCi6QG5a-s video from inside], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu8De4ELknU video from outside](at 01:18). The fumes from this explosion could only leave the room through the door/window in the northern side, or through the hole in the ceiling. I'm not sure how these circumstances affected the shape of the second plume, but I think the fumes raised with more power initially because all the trapped hot air in the room wanted to escape through one exit point. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took (marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There he saw the kids (dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly) [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of (~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened (started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Who is Abu al-Baraa? Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' [https://twitter.com/JohnDelacour/status/858814935459127297 claims] he spoke to him. Note, that Amira / Ameerah = al-Meerah ~ Abeerah ~ al-Baraa. The "L" is not pronounced when it precedes a consonant. Instead it adapts the same sound. -- 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_HRW_map.jpg&diff=37349File:Khan Sheikhun chemical HRW map.jpg2017-05-09T22:37:08Z<p>Q: Remake of the map used by Human Rights Watch that shows several unidentified locations in Khan Sheikhun.
Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use], at 00:51
[[Category:Khan Sheikho...</p>
<hr />
<div>Remake of the map used by Human Rights Watch that shows several unidentified locations in Khan Sheikhun.<br />
<br />
Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use], at 00:51<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_unexploded_bomb_geolocation.jpg&diff=37348File:Khan Sheikhun chemical unexploded bomb geolocation.jpg2017-05-09T21:51:29Z<p>Q: Coordinates and bomb type added</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of the unexploded aerial bomb seen in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpvRwzUk6xo at 02:06<br />
<br />
Location: [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447508&lon=36.647513&z=19&m=b (35.447508,36.647513)]<br />
<br />
Source: [[User:Q]] ([[:File:Khan Sheikhun chemical unexploded bomb geolocation.png|.png]])<br />
<br />
== Discussion ==<br />
The bomb looks similar to a [http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-bombs/p-50t/?sphrase_id=19888 P-50T practice bomb]. It's designed to train aircrews in bombing, it can be dropped by airplanes or helicopters. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 21:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37347Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-09T20:43:10Z<p>Q: /* Weather & gas extent */ - Plume #2 explosion</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
<br />
== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' has posted [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/videos/10154250216240583/ a video] from the hospital cave from April 6th, two days after it was bombed. The place has been abandoned. I see no attempt to clean up after the blast. I am starting to think that the bombing was staged. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
:: Added to the map now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
See also [[#BBC link victims to houses]] below for three more identified homes a bit to the southwest of these. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
<br />
::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
<br />
::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Wind Direction decided:''' Charles and I discussed this some, and I decided the winds is southwest, and blows TO the northeast, 45-50 degrees or, as this slightly too-early graphic shows, 45-55 with a broader range of 20 to 70 degrees possible. See [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/05/idlib-chemical-massacre-when-and-where.html Idlib Chemical Massacre: The When and Where] for this and other geo-temporal findings. The significance of that to the alleged sarin spread to those homes is pretty evidently a mismatch. In fact, those homes are in exactly the opposite direction of the wind. That could be a total coincidence, or could actually be someone deciding where to say people died based it on an accurate wind reading - read backwards, like Postol did. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun Wind Direction vs. allegations.jpg|center|1000px]]<br />
<br />
Good work, but I don't agree with this wind direction estimation. I can see some movement to the left in the video from the northern filming location, and there is also a strong movement to the right in the NYT video from the [https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/859361695671693312 other filming location] in the SW edge of the town. Any wind below 54° azimuth would cause the fume from the 2nd strike to move towards the left side in the NYT video, but we see the exact opposite. As I see it, the movement is more pronounced in the NYT video than in the other one, at least near the base of the plumes. Overall, the wind direction should be somewhere in the [https://s28.postimg.org/jajaam6vx/wind_rough.jpg 68° - 144°] range, likely closer to 144° than 68°. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, it might be useful information that the bomb from the second strike most likely exploded in closed space, see [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg| image]]. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhCi6QG5a-s video from inside], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu8De4ELknU video from outside](at 01:18). The fumes from this explosion could only leave the room through the door/window in the northern side, or through the hole in the ceiling. I'm not sure how these circumstances affected the shape of the second plume, but I think the fumes raised with more power initially because all the trapped hot air in the room wanted to escape through one exit point. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took (marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There he saw the kids (dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly) [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of (~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened (started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Who is Abu al-Baraa? Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' [https://twitter.com/JohnDelacour/status/858814935459127297 claims] he spoke to him. Note, that Amira / Ameerah = al-Meerah ~ Abeerah ~ al-Baraa. The "L" is not pronounced when it precedes a consonant. Instead it adapts the same sound. -- 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37346Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-09T20:20:55Z<p>Q: /* Weather & gas extent */ - Wind direction</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
<br />
== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' has posted [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/videos/10154250216240583/ a video] from the hospital cave from April 6th, two days after it was bombed. The place has been abandoned. I see no attempt to clean up after the blast. I am starting to think that the bombing was staged. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
:: Added to the map now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
See also [[#BBC link victims to houses]] below for three more identified homes a bit to the southwest of these. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
<br />
::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
<br />
::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Wind Direction decided:''' Charles and I discussed this some, and I decided the winds is southwest, and blows TO the northeast, 45-50 degrees or, as this slightly too-early graphic shows, 45-55 with a broader range of 20 to 70 degrees possible. See [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/05/idlib-chemical-massacre-when-and-where.html Idlib Chemical Massacre: The When and Where] for this and other geo-temporal findings. The significance of that to the alleged sarin spread to those homes is pretty evidently a mismatch. In fact, those homes are in exactly the opposite direction of the wind. That could be a total coincidence, or could actually be someone deciding where to say people died based it on an accurate wind reading - read backwards, like Postol did. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun Wind Direction vs. allegations.jpg|center|1000px]]<br />
<br />
Good work, but I don't agree with this wind direction estimation. I can see some movement to the left in the video from the northern filming location, and there is also a strong movement to the right in the NYT video from the [https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/859361695671693312 other filming location] in the SW edge of the town. Any wind below 54° azimuth would cause the fume from the 2nd strike to move towards the left side in the NYT video, but we see the exact opposite. As I see it, the movement is more pronounced in the NYT video than in the other one, at least near the base of the plumes. Overall, the wind direction should be somewhere in the [https://s28.postimg.org/jajaam6vx/wind_rough.jpg 68° - 144°] range, likely closer to 144° than 68°. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 20:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took (marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There he saw the kids (dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly) [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of (~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened (started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Who is Abu al-Baraa? Kareem Shaheen of ''The Guardian'' [https://twitter.com/JohnDelacour/status/858814935459127297 claims] he spoke to him. Note, that Amira / Ameerah = al-Meerah ~ Abeerah ~ al-Baraa. The "L" is not pronounced when it precedes a consonant. Instead it adapts the same sound. -- 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37274Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T18:04:52Z<p>Q: /* Family name? */ - Coincidence?</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|thumb|Dead family members at the al-Youssef house. ''Photo by Alaa (Alyousef).'']]<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ALIVE - Fatima Elwan(F) ALIVE<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Female Sibling(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
**Unknown sibling(probably female) - Unknown sibling of Sanae Haj Ali<br />
***Aya Fadl ___ (25F) ALIVE - [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Alaa_al-Yousef| Alaa al-Yousef]](27M) ALIVE - Alaa is the cousin of Abdul Hamid al-Yousef <br />
****Najdat Alaa al-Yousef (1-2M) ALIVE<br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD - Najeeb Khairo al-Jawhar(62M) DEAD<br />
**Hala Najeeb al-Jawhar ??? - Mohammad ___ al-Mere'e ???<br />
***Mayar Mohammad al-Mere'e(5M) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Najeeb al-Jawhar(?M) ALIVE - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs interview]<br />
*[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdelqader_Al-Yousef| Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE <br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Alaa provided [[:File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|this photo]] of dead family members at the al-Youssef house to the Danish newspaper ''Politiken''. He says he is a member of the family. I suppose Alaa is Alaa Alyousef the promoter. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Thanks Andrew, it was a good tip, I added Alaa and his family(I'm not sure who the old man is, but I'll keep him in mind). I also added Abdulqader al-Yousef and Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef's family(they are not strictly Yousefs, but I think they have a place in this list) --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::We shouldn't rule out the possibility that Amira is al-Saleh by birth(probably even related to their husband), and it's just a coincidence that both of them have the same family name. Also, when the old man in the BBC video says "Amira Saleh's children were here", I think he means that they were there at that moment, not that they lived there. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 18:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37273Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T17:33:45Z<p>Q: /* Family relations */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|thumb|Dead family members at the al-Youssef house. ''Photo by Alaa (Alyousef).'']]<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ALIVE - Fatima Elwan(F) ALIVE<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Female Sibling(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
**Unknown sibling(probably female) - Unknown sibling of Sanae Haj Ali<br />
***Aya Fadl ___ (25F) ALIVE - [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Alaa_al-Yousef| Alaa al-Yousef]](27M) ALIVE - Alaa is the cousin of Abdul Hamid al-Yousef <br />
****Najdat Alaa al-Yousef (1-2M) ALIVE<br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD - Najeeb Khairo al-Jawhar(62M) DEAD<br />
**Hala Najeeb al-Jawhar ??? - Mohammad ___ al-Mere'e ???<br />
***Mayar Mohammad al-Mere'e(5M) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Najeeb al-Jawhar(?M) ALIVE - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs interview]<br />
*[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdelqader_Al-Yousef| Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE <br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Alaa provided [[:File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|this photo]] of dead family members at the al-Youssef house to the Danish newspaper ''Politiken''. He says he is a member of the family. I suppose Alaa is Alaa Alyousef the promoter. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Thanks Andrew, it was a good tip, I added Alaa and his family(I'm not sure who the old man is, but I'll keep him in mind). I also added Abdulqader al-Yousef and Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef's family(they are not strictly Yousefs, but I think they have a place in this list) --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37272Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T17:27:43Z<p>Q: /* Family relations */ - small fix</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
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That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
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The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
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First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|thumb|Dead family members at the al-Youssef house. ''Photo by Alaa (Alyousef).'']]<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ALIVE - Fatima Elwan(F) ALIVE<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Female Sibling(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
**Unknown sibling(probably female) - Unknown sibling of Sanae Haj Ali<br />
***Aya Fadl ___ (25F) ALIVE - [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Alaa_al-Yousef| Alaa al-Yousef]](27M) ALIVE - Alaa is the cousin of Abdul Hamid al-Yousef <br />
****Najdat Alaa al-Yousef (1-2M) ALIVE<br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD - Najeeb Khairo al-Jawhar(62M) DEAD<br />
**Hala Najeeb al-Jawhar ??? - Mohammad ___ al-Mere'e ???<br />
***Mayar Mohammad al-Mere'e(5M) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Najeeb al-Jawhar(?M) ALIVE - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs interview]<br />
*[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdelqader_Al-Yousef| Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE <br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Alaa provided [[:File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|this photo]] of dead family members at the al-Youssef house to the Danish newspaper ''Politiken''. He says he is a member of the family. I suppose Alaa is Alaa Alyousef the promoter. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37271Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T17:23:25Z<p>Q: /* Family relations */ - Added several members, changed statuses of Abdul Hamid's parents</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|thumb|Dead family members at the al-Youssef house. ''Photo by Alaa (Alyousef).'']]<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ALIVE - Fatima Elwan(F) ALIVE<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Female Sibling(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
**Unknown sibling(probably female) - Unknown sibling of Sanae Haj Ali<br />
***Aya Fadl ___ (25M) ALIVE - [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Alaa_al-Yousef| Alaa al-Yousef]](27M) ALIVE - Alaa is the cousin of Abdul Hamid al-Yousef <br />
****Najdat Alaa al-Yousef (1-2M) ALIVE<br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD - Najeeb Khairo al-Jawhar(62M) DEAD<br />
**Hala Najeeb al-Jawhar ??? - Mohammad ___ al-Mere'e ???<br />
***Mayar Mohammad al-Mere'e(5M) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Najeeb al-Jawhar(?M) ALIVE - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs interview]<br />
*[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdelqader_Al-Yousef| Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE <br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Alaa provided [[:File:Al-Youssef family dead.jpg|this photo]] of dead family members at the al-Youssef house to the Danish newspaper ''Politiken''. He says he is a member of the family. I suppose Alaa is Alaa Alyousef the promoter. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37267Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T16:46:04Z<p>Q: /* Abdelqader Al-Yousef */ - sign</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37266Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T16:45:30Z<p>Q: /* Abdelqader Al-Yousef */ - full name</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
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That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
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The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
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First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbI1ATu-8UY AFP] gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37261Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-07T12:38:54Z<p>Q: /* Al-Yousef Family */ - Alaa al-Yousef added</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
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Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
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That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
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Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
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The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
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First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
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:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Opposition Records ==<br />
(incomplete) <br />
*[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths] - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed aat least sas days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 2 later dead.] 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef ===<br />
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/<br />
A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members." <br />
:Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alaa al-Yousef ===<br />
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan]. He and Aya Fadl, his wife ([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/04/08/aya-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg family photo]), talk about what happened in several articles, [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html this one] is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the [http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8422874-3x2-940x627.jpg hospital]. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Articles:<br />
*[https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/assad-trying-kill-everyone-survived-chemical-attack-says-resident/ 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again]<br />
*[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack]<br />
*[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/syria-gas-attack-sobbing-father-cradles-dead-twins-19-family/ Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning] - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements<br />
<br />
;Video appearances:<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use]<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVF9UJegUEA Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice] <br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYkig3V7-I Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News]<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8 "al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::::She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the [https://www.facebook.com/pg/hmf5h/videos/ Facebook account] of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this ''Orient News'' video?<br />
:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack] - ''Orient News Eng'', April 15, 2017<br />
:A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Rescue and recovery operations|earlier]] that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.<br />
::''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.<br />
::''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.<br />
::''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.<br />
::''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!<br />
<br />
=== Family name? ===<br />
Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind ''backwards'' might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin [https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/lastname.html here]). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo&t=0m7s 0:08] she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area ==<br />
* https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/<br />
* (Leith Fadel report...)<br />
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nayef Family ===<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
=== Samer from Khatab ===<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. <br />
<br />
A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37241Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-06T12:45:55Z<p>Q: Al-Khaled Family added, interview/video</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8" al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Khaled Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187270 Anas Mustafa al-Khaled], his [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 wife], and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PLFBXuVps this video] from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-Z6u_kuo0 White Helmets video] at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37240Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-06T12:21:58Z<p>Q: /* Al-Saleh Family */ - sign</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8" al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
--[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37239Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-06T12:10:59Z<p>Q: /* Al-Saleh Family */ - Two interviews with Amira al-Saleh</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location#BBC link victims to houses]]<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
** Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
***Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
***Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
**[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
***Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
***Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
**Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
**FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
***Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
**Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
***Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
*Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
*Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
**Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
*Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
**(Unknown father)<br />
***[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
**Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
**Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
*Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
**Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
***Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
**Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
*Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
**Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
**Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
*Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
**Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
*Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
;Only listed in the HRW report<br />
*Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
*Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k&t=51s HRW video] (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) [https://apnews.com/f0ce138259434abfb52ffe14fabe5768 AP], Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) [http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/national/chemical-attack-kills-22-members-single-family-syria-article-1.3022377 (photo)] + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --[[User:Andrew1|Andrew1]] ([[User talk:Andrew1|talk]]) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8" al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DIqXNq5eo RFS Media Office] in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql1Wyw0iii4 Syria Charity], this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic:<br />
*At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.<br />
*Fear of bombing?<br />
*Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (''call to prayer''), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (''she shows the kids on her phone'').<br />
*The case of Oum Mohamed(''Mohamed's mother'') is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (''feed'') his 4 children. She's got them all lost.<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 0m41s.jpg|thumb|Abu Rameea as seen on SMART News video.]]<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
:::''Note:'' - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m12s SMART media video] at [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun SMART News - 1m13s.jpg|1m 13s]] without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in [[:File:Khan Shaikhoun hosing SMART News Agency 3.jpg|this photo]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Location&diff=37195Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location2017-05-05T10:08:54Z<p>Q: /* BBC link victims to houses */ - Reply to Resup, and some additional thoughts</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
<br />
== Alleged bomb location ==<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph article] Gives specific location for one bomb strike "Corniche St" in the north part of the town. We have already seen an alleged fresh crater near the grain silos/bakery. I assume Corniche St is nearby? I can't find any street map to confirm. One other snippt is the wind is listed as blowing to the west - that's consistent with the Hama weather data. It also makes the Bellingcat 'analysis' somewhat dubious. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Christiaan Triebert [https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/850183644350164992 tweets] that Pentagon and Brown Noses located the bomb crater, by which Hadi Abdallah is seen in his report video, at the same place - in front of the silos, near (somewhat) to where the strange US media image had its yellowish puddle. Pretty exactly [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.449927&lon=36.648878&z=19&m=b here] it is on wikimapia. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A SMART News reporter visits the site of the bomb crater. Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s Testimony of the survivors of the regime chemical attack on Khan Shaikhoun in idleb] At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdOKGCpF5s&t=1m 1:08] he enters one of the buildings on the main street. He seems to be saying that people in the cellar floor had died of the attack. Who would live here? No furniture. Only a dirty rug on the floor for sleeping with an even smaller mattress serving as a common pillow. Internally displaced people, maybe. Or prisoners and hostages. The five shoes left next to the mattress belong to women and children. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That's not quite the spot the US marked - this is on the highway, just SW of the silos. At 1:02 we see the crater, facing north and nearer (south of the crater) chunks of pavement and dirt. Could these be tossed from that impact? If so, direction of projectile was south, fired from the north. US map shows one track only flying apparently a bit south of Khan Sheikhoun. But I supposed a fancy missile could swoop north, turn around, head south, and do this? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Shayratjpg-large.jpg|600px]]<br />
<br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reports] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." But the US map shows a spot about 150-200 meters SW of the silos area as impact point. If the hospital (labeled separately in the right spot east of town) is where people were gassed - what were they all doing there? (I guess this is just some kind of mix-up? Or is there another hospital in the allegedly hit area? Nothing that looks like one, but they usually don't) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:09, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Is US intelligence claiming the White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf field hospital] was the site of the exposure to sarin? Quote: ''"regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons."'' Actually I agree, the cave complex is he most likely place for exposure. The victims where then moved to Shajul Islam's hospital downtown. But what were the civilian-looking people doing in this al-Qaeda / al-CIAda military complex at 6 am in the morning? See "[[#Whora Hora]]" below. And why were only civilians affected and none of the White Helmets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:40, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: See the Avigdor Lieberman quote Resup added to the [[#Timing]] section today. Apparently the claim is that "Assad" hit first near the silos, then the victims were evacuated to Whora Hora, where "Assad" hit a second time. All in 9 minutes. 100%. Or something --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It may be that weird. Russia and Syria say the place they bombed was a place al-Nusra had CWs stored - US seems to say they say that was the hospital (cum-hostel?). But really .. is it ''that'' weird? I suspect not. For one thing, they're 8 hours off on timing, so we don't have a clear everyone agrees scenario. Something's amiss, and it might be six things or more. Takes untangling. (and sorry I've been so lame so far) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Crater ==<br />
[[File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|thumb|Results of a Grad rocket hitting a road in Israel.]]<br />
What kind of explosion would create the crater seen? A 122 mm Grad rocket [[:File:GRAD rocket impact in Israel.jpg|hardly pierces]] the asphalt. Also note, that the electricity distribution box right next to the crater has not been damaged by the blast. The damage to the surrounding warehouses is said to be 6 months old. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:22, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The size of the crater depends a bit on the fuzing type and fuze. The KS crater could easily be made by a 122mm HE rocket if it delayed a few milliseconds to detonate.<br />
: I find it less believable an S5 missile did it as that only has 800 gram warhead.<br />
<br />
: A third alternative is that the crater is old and a relic from a previous battle. This is less likely as it would presumably be filled in. However, the undamaged structure beside it could have been placed later if it was an old crater. It it was present at the detonation it would surely(?) have some shrapnel damage and paint scouring. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Petri brought this, all images from that day, starting around noon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Michael Kobs crater timeline.jpg|center|880px]]<br />
<br />
: These images are from at least 3 different days, I made a video [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp collection] instead, I also added some of my observations there. Note that there is a video tsunami from April 6th, but I only managed to find a single video from the day before. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Interesting - how did you decide it was three different days? (sorry to be brief and not dig for an answer at the link - pressed for time - as I guess some readers will be) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: There are many clues and I didn't reach the conclusion this way, but this is probably the most straightforward explanation:<br />
::: * There are 2 videos published on April 4th.<br />
::: * SMART has a [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%AF-%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AC%D9%88%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%8A#33733 batch of photos] from April 5th, and these photos show the same scenes that also appear in their [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video] published on April 5th.<br />
::: * The next group of videos have several similarities, the "press briefing" setup, their publishing dates on Youtube are April 6th, late afternoon-evening(local time), there are common characters and other visual clues. The video in this [https://www.facebook.com/kareem.shaheen/posts/10154257460555583 Facebook post] fits perfectly to this group, and the description has the exact filming date, April 6th("Thursday").<br />
::: --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: Not sure if this is/should be in your collection. Hadi Alabdullah by the crater on 4 April before any substantial alterations but with chemical staining on road significantly reduced. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Had On Site] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: Thanks, Q. I don't have time to review that, but there's some explanation for anyone else, or me eventually. it wouldn't be surprising if they come from different days. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I noticed in the 'professional' SMART video of April 5 some dead birds in a cage. I assume Krazy Kaszeta Kemistry ™ has a simple explanation why 'non persistent' Sarin was still killing birds a day later. I suspect that explanation won't include the locals faking it. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I just found [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU this video] from Faruq Shami, it shows the White Helmet sample collection team in action on April 4th. It's a long video (15 min), and there are several interesting scenes, so I recommend everyone to watch it, the crater part starts at 07:56. It's April 4th, at ~17, this is so far the first recorded sample collection attempt. The red signs that appear in later videos originate from this team. Mostly soil samples are collected, but I can see a dead bird and something that looks like a metal piece as well. The [https://s4.postimg.org/vz54vio4d/videoplayback2.mp4_snapshot_00.37_2017.04.06_19.png small metal piece] in the crater was moved, but it wasn't collected for some reason. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I updated the [https://pastebin.com/iLzQ0Cbp pastebin] with two new videos, White Helmets [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6cqg6BaJU collecting samples], and a great [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video] that shows the surroundings of the crater and the nearest neighborhood. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 17:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It might have been there already. It looks like a power pole was knocked down by this impact, they set up this electric box to help (?) and that probably hadn't all been done by noon. But maybe. Anyway, the north view video (see [[#Scene Overview]]) shows no plume rising from the crater area after the first round of alleged air strikes. <br />
<br />
So was it hit earlier? Or later yet, and they still had that fresh electric box placed before the first images? Or did no violence happen there at all this day? It doesn't look obvioulsy old - as Charles notes, it's not filled-in, and the debris spread looks realistic (but maybe lacking in tossed-up dirt) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Furthermore, doesn't that crater suggest a blast, and maybe a powerful one? And wouldn't that vaporize any sarin it also released? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Direction of travel: the crater details to me suggest it came from N-NW, seeming to raise and crack the pavement to the S-SE. It actually lines up pretty well with the damaged building that way, but if they've been that way for months, I suppose that's a coincidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Whora Hora ==<br />
:''(I have decided to name this place Whora Hora after bin Laden's more famous cave hideout and hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC) )<br />
[[File:White Helmets base preview.jpg|thumb|This is the place.<br />
([https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B026'29.1%22N+36%C2%B040'16.0%22E/@35.4409228,36.6687352,972m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.441414!4d36.671107 Google Maps])]]<br />
I found one possible location for the White Helmets cave complex. There is a plot for a warehouse carved into the hillside on the eastern side of the M5 motorway, 1.2 km [http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113465828 north,] northeast of the point where the missile struck next to the grain silos. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
...but Aldin on Twitter found the [https://twitter.com/CT_operative/status/849259128430231552 real one]. No coordinates. :( -- 05:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: This is at 35.441414, 36.671107 just outside the eastern edge of the town. Between the time of the google maps photo and the more recent satellite photo there have been large-scale excavations, and ventilation shafts have appeared in the field above the quarry. <br />
<br />
: As there was a hospital in town under the direction of struck-off Dr Shajul Islam, there was no reason for casualties to have taken to this quarry outside town. It's interesting that one of the photos uploaded by Petri shows a child being carried out of one of the bunkers by the WH cameraman who was photographed from behind by the Reuters cameraman. A careful comparison of videos and stills for continuity errors may show that children are decontaminated after they come out of the bunker, with obvious implications. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 16:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On April 3 Shajul Islam [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 tweets] a two minute video with a look inside a 800 m2 cave complex that he says is under 30 meters of mountain. One future hospital room is shown and seems to be about 7 x 3.5 meters in size. Cinder blocks are waiting for inner walls to be built. Shajul Islam says the hospital will have "about 10 to 15 rooms this size". Who said Osama bin Laden could not receive kidney dialysis at Tora Bora? This hospital will have CT scanners an everything - all paid for by the UK government.<br />
* [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/848977590203203584 Dr Shajul Islam @DrShajulIslam] - April 3:<br />
*:''"After 5 hospitals hit and closed last week, this is the future of hospitals in Syria. Help by donating [http://www.medicalaidsyria.com/ MedicalAidSyria.com]<br />
*:[https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/849032612425469952 April 4:] ''This is not a [[Syrian American Medical Society|SAMS]] project. One nation UK will be buying equipment for this hospital."<br />
The video connects Dr Shajul Islam to the White Helmets cave hospital. SI operated other hospitals in Syria, but he was in Khan Sheikhoun and the soft earth in the caves is similar to what we see in the White Helmets base. This put [[#Shady doctor|Shajul Islam]] in control of both of the hospitals in Khan Sheikhoun. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:If the cave hospital outside Khan Sheikhoun was so unfinished that the chambers were just cinder blocks with no inner walls, this is strong evidence against the opposition version (channelled by Kareem Shaheen in The Guardian) that victims were taken there to be treated, and consistent with the alternative that these chambers were used to hold captives. Do we have any images of victims inside the cave hospital, or being carried out of it (apart from the one photo of the WH cameraman? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 20:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Whora Hora" is a huge complex and is being enlarged all the time. In other videos we see the inside of the existing hospital. I believe there are two other entrance courtyards to the cave complex. The two others may be used for weapons storage and for chemical weapons. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&index=50&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f Here is one video], from Petri's playlist, that shows the inside of the existing cave hospital. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Shajul Islam didn't arrive in Khan Sheikhoun area until late March. On [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/843428910499008514 March 19] he was still in Idlib. His first twitter mention of KS area is on [https://twitter.com/DrShajulIslam/status/845043600941600774 March 23] when he says "As the battle to free #hama continues we are saving lives from a cave on the front lines. Dua requested". He had previously been in Aleppo until its liberation and then in Idlib. His presence at the site of the attack was certainly opportune for the jihadis. [[User:SteveMcIntyre|Steve McIntyre]] 20:40 EDT 7 April 2017<br />
<br />
: I suspect that the to-be-finished larger "hospital" (plus whatever) is actually the al-Khazanat base (see below). The large structures don't seem to be created yesterday. Found [http://en.abna24.com/news/middle-east/jund-al-aqsa-executes-hundred-members-of-rival-groups-in-idlib.html some] [http://syriadirect.org/news/hardline-salafist-brigade-reportedly-executes-up-to-160-rebel-fighters-as-infighting-rocks-northwestern-syria/ more] [http://syriadirect.org/news/search-for-the-dead-begins-in-idlib-after-islamic-state-linked-brigade-leaves-for-raqqa/ info] about the hostage-killing event in February (last link most relevant) at the former army underground refueling base, and the place was the headquarter of Liwa al-Aqsa, a super hardcore takfiri group affiliated with ISIS. After heavy infighting with Nusra they agreed to a deal and left to Raqqa, not before murdering 80 of their hostages from an "FSA" gang Jaish al-Nasr at some point supported by the US. Search for the hostages then took place on the 5km² large areal. It is planned to be taken over as base by Nusra (now known as Hayyat Tahrir al-Sham), says the February 22 article. <br />
: There's also the chance that the two are connected anyway as they are less than two kilometers away from each other--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I have collected 16 videos that show original footage from the compound into [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf YouTube playlist.] The videos are ordered by the approximate timeline. There are three different narratives or acts. I am not sure they can all play out on the same day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:52, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Is this the al-Lataminah cave compound? ==<br />
:''(No, it is not.)<br />
[[File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|thumb|Al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
[[File:April 2017 -CW Khan Sheikhoun Location Latamnah.png|thumb|Comparing [[#Whora Hora|Whora Hora]] to the al-Lataminah cave compound]]<br />
Yes, the location of the [[White Helmets]] base must be the [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|Al-Lataminah cave compound]] just south of Al-Lataminah. It was [[Russian airstrikes in Syria#Ltamenah cave compound|bombed by Russia]] on the first day of their campaign. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Lataminah is about eight kilometers south-west of Khan Sheikhoun, I don't think the SAA would be confusing them. The thesis that it happened and was filmed earlier is interesting, though. FWIW, [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.432729&lon=36.649291&z=19&m=b&show=/5152358/ar/%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D8%B5%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86 here]'s a marker on wikimapia in Khan Sheikhoun which is eight years old, on something that could be a small rocky formation, with the first comment reading autotranslated "Ohla Abu Yahya .. King of Khan Sheikun and neighboring areas, we forget the sweet days in the university city and the moments of land bread and the voice of the breads of the bread from the decks like Grad missiles atmosphere". --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 19:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or did al-Lataminah move to Khan Sheikhoun ===<br />
I just noticed Adam's blog post on the [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/03/syria-chlorine-allegations-march-25.html Alleged Chlorine Attack in Latamna.] (I have been too busy following the spy drama at the White House to have time for Syria.) The photos could be from the Whora Hora base in Khan Sheikhoun and not from the al-Lataminah cave compound. The [https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bo67vLZY5Eo/WNt69vHhzVI/AAAAAAAAD-8/hgRPWiC4inMGu0rOaeHuQbb2VFsFlC-kQCLcB/s1600/3-25-17-cylinder.png chlorine cylinder] is the same as seen in [[:File:C8ksCD2V0AAZGA7.jpg|this photo]] from the Khan Sheikhoun base. I thought I had geolocated the photo to the second south-facing entrance, just east of what we know is the White Helmets Field hospital. I suspect the [https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujwsisPplNY/WNuDTSBwdrI/AAAAAAAAD_k/Pb3HLXe3j9UkQbfNPP2CKDGup8UPdSk7ACLcB/s1600/3-15-17_entrance_1.jpg photo] with the fire truck could be at a west-facing entrance to the cave complex, at the old stone quarry to the west. (I suspected there would be another entrance, but did not have proof before.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== ...or is it Camp Khazanat? ===<br />
Rescanning wikimapia following this morning's [https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-poisonous-substances-used-idlib-also-used-militants-aleppo/ Konashenkov statement], on the eastern outskirts of the town [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=35.422184&lon=36.679702&z=17&m=b there is] a "Camp Khazanat Army fueling base" complete with "vehicle shelters" and "underground fueling storage" that looks like it could fit our "quarry" of interest. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The facility in the videos shows the facility was surrounded by green fields. The Camp Khazanat Army fueling base is surrounded by olive groves<br />
: There are numerous limestone quarries around Khan Sheikhoun especially to the East and North. Some of them are surrounded by fields, not olive groves.<br />
: Ian Grant suggests [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441431&lon=36.670923&z=19&m=b this facility to east of Town] is the site. He has a better resolution photo showing air-vents in the fields to the North of it. See [https://twitter.com/Gjoene/status/849348234568970241 His Tweet with image]<br />
: The gas related attack occurred before dawn. The Russian attacks occurred 11:30 to 12:30 local time.<br />
: The SyAAF doesn't have a history of night operational sorties - with the exception of some L-39 flights that don't appear to be offensive in nature. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
No luck finding any visuals of the place so far, but I found [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/834713454376263682 this tweet] from February 23, 2017 by @markito0171:<br />
:''#Syria ~80 corpses found in fuel-tanks of Camp "Khazanat"/Khan Shaykhun -executed by "Liwa al Aqsa" before their retreat to #IslamicState''<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 06:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:That does sound intriguing - and I was going to suggest the same spot before work, noting the underground storage notes. But ... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::This may be video of the 80 bodies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo Massacre tanks in Khan Shaikhoun] (Feb 25, 2017) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Having now looked, camp khazanat doesn't seem at all cliffy enough. And now I'm about 70% sure it's the Latamnah compound as Petri suggests. The images are afternoon sunlight. If that conflicts with anything, great. Otherwise, I wouldn't say people lived or were gassed here. It's supposed to have a hospital, and the victims seem trucked in. It's not so far from Khan Sheikhoun that doesn't make sense - this might be the best hospital around for CW victims (the mud bath by un-suited men isn't encouraging, but...) Graphic forthcoming. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is a [[:File:Al-Lataminah cave compound.jpg|photo]] of the Al-Lataminah cave compound. I do not think they match. Besides, the Khan Sheikhoun caves must be facing south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nice [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pszb5pyooo video find], Petri. I see nothing that would say it is NOT the place. It's a rather large area on the map, and they are on top of something. At 0:11 you can see that they are partly surrounded by the sort of green knolls we see in the event videos, and at 4:01 the camera goes over what seems to be a road carved into the surface through the whole picture, with people standing in front and behind it, and a higher structure to the left. Inside of that could be what we are searching for. Nothing definitive, but nothing to dismiss it either. <br />
:CL, your attempted match doesn't really convince me. The greens should be on different sides of the "road", the curves seem wrong, the buildings don't seem to match. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
: I just noticed that all but one comment on the video are from the last 24 hours. I ran them through translation and they are all from knuckleheads cursing Assad in flowery poems, not realizing the date of the video. Somebody sells it as from the current "chemical weapons" event. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ video] of the body recovery. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHMB34qh7qQ&t=29s At 0:29] a White Helmet is interviewed in front of a cliff similar to the White Helmets base. They could have come back to base for the interview. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Okay, it seemed a good fit from the little I could see, but I guess it's not even that. The sun would be too low for that azimuth, come to think of it. I won't be digging for where this happened. It might be useful, but ... definitely too much going on. I'm skipping some stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Scene Overview ==<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 plumes view.png|center|920px]]<br />
This is what video shows at around 6:30 to 7:00 am (possibly not of April 4, but...) I used Bellingcat's field-of-view study ([https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ see here]), which seems accurate. Here, blue lines from the camera to each plume, pink circles for rough area of high-rising, high-explosives plumes, and red for the oddball white plume that might be some CW. Just where each is along the line of sight is a guess - it's set broadly (big ovals), but they could be closer or further out on their lines (the ovals are not angled right to follow the line, so image that.) The red circle may be more exact: it's a short cloud but <br />
seems to cast a shadow on the tel, so must be only a bit northeast of it, approximately at that (school?). Crater date I think is/will be explained. Hospital timeline explains that later blast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Bomb cloud sizes vary a lot. That could indicate either different size bombs or bombs that don't completely detonate. The really small one could be just the primer going off and not the main body. Of course a CW bomb is also an option but the variance in size should be considered.<br />
<br />
: Ultimately, actual fragments from the anomalous bomb will help resolve the question. They haven't been forthcoming, so the balance of uncertainty starts to favour a damp squib rather than a devil's brew. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed on smaller bomb/primer possibility. With fragments, there will be an issue of possession, that it's not cooked up--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ Amnesty] upload time search indicates that video was posted before what we were told was the attack time ....--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 10:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
Video ID: MYOMEDK_uVs<br />
Upload Date (YYYY/MM/DD): 2017-04-04<br />
Upload Time (UTC): 04:59:28 (convert to local time)<br />
:Converting to local time means add 3 (2 for time zones, 1 for DST) giving 7:59, which is almost slow, but reasonable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Affected Homes ===<br />
(allegedly anyway) So far we have three identified sites where families were said to live and be affected by the gas, and to largely die. So far these are all in a narrow north-south strip in the town's northeast. Counting north-to-south: <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:4-4-2017-Goeloc basement.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg|thumb]][[File:Khan Sheikhun CW civil defense home.jpg|thumb]]1) Commentator and now ACLOS member Andrew brought this up in comments at the Monitor blog (first comment [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-massacre-4-4-17-masterlist.html here]) - marked a bit incorrectly on the map above as 'basement.' That means the corner building the host of this video starts out standing at. But the door he takes us into is actually a bit east of that marker. The alleged sarin crater is about 115-120 meters E-NE of the correct spot. Better graphic and notes in a bit... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:This is a bit rough, but they go in the door boxed in red. Sparse basement living area shown. The place looks pretty fancy, but the inside looks more like squatters, hostages, or just some bedding for show was here recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
2) ACLOS member Q located this and made the nice graphic - the corner building above boxed here in red - the home in question is south of that, marked here in green. Account details pending translation... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:note: this one is not yet on the map shown above. It would be just south of "basement."<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3) The furthest south is what a "white Helmets" volunteer claims as his family home, where his wife, children, nieces and nephews, brother and sister-in-law all or mostly died. Approximate location [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.447799&lon=36.647381&z=19&m=b centered on Wikimapia], and shown on the map above. The alleged sarin crater is 275 meters to the north-northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Weather & gas extent ==<br />
<s>According to [http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Observation.aspx?location=SYXX0018 Intellicast], weather at Hama (close enough) had light winds from the East / East NE sector at 6 mph around dawn. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)</s><br />
<small>Deleted reference to incorrect intellicast wind data --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:28, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
: [[File:Postol assessment 041117.pdf|Postol assessment 041117.pdf]] States winds were blowing to South-East - away from inhabited areas. I have seen two different sources that indicate the winds had a Westerly component at 10m blowing towards inhabited areas. This is not withstanding the apparent easterly component of the first video bomb clouds which I put down to different wind direction above and below the inversion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 18:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I can find no historical weather data for Khan Sheikhoun or even Hama for April 4th. The nearest weather stations are at [https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSLK/2017/4/4/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Hama&req_state=&req_statename=Syria&reqdb.zip=00000&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=40030&MR=1 the airport] in Latakia, in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INORTHQO2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Qoubaiyat-Akkar] in Lebanon, and in [https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IHATAYHA2#history/s20170404/e20170404/mdaily Cezayirlioglu Ciftligi] in Turkey. All show north or southeasterly winds at 6:30 am on April 4th. The bomb blast [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] however shows the wind blowing from the west. Which makes on question if it was actually filmed at some earlier date. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The nearest reliable data is [https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/request/asos.py?station=OSDI&station=OSLK&station=OSPR&data=all&year1=2017&month1=4&day1=4&year2=2017&month2=4&day2=5&tz=Etc%2FUTC&format=tdf&latlon=no&direct=no&report_type=1&report_type=2 METARS data from a number of Syrian airports ] OSLK/Latakia has winds blowing from the North East direction at 03:00 UTC. Other data is intermittent --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Other sources tend to be very unreliable and often are an interpolated value on a mesoscale grid. METARS are the gold standard. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Also forgot to mention. Wind direction above and below an inversion can be wildly different. There would have been a strong inversion there assuming the light winds everyone seems to agree on. The general name for this phenomenon is backing and veering with altitude (certainly not an Eckman spiral as the armchair experts are wont to say). This is especially obvious when an inversion is present. <br />
<br />
: I noticed in the video a direction change on some bomb clouds with altitude. The 'kink' will be at the inversion level which would likely be under 100m and perhaps significantly lower. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Visual assessment: in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvDisOxJi0 this video,] the faintly yellowish gas plumes seem to me to be moving right to left, when facing south, which means from the west, roughly (about opposite of what the Hama records suggested). One apparent origin point seems to be a bit SW of town. Overall breeze might be a bit from the W-SW. Reviewing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-3-17 gas spread.png|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
::: I looked at the video. I didn't see any movement in the cloud/mist. The only clue is tapering of the density. I'm not sure that is a sound approach.<br />
<br />
::: Re Hama weather data. It's one of several sources, none of them consistent. The only constants I have seen from the different sources is there is a component from the North and the wind speed is very low ~ 2 m/s<br />
<br />
::: The good thing about your new video is the clouds appear to be below the inversion, so whatever they are doing it will be consistent across the field of view - unlike the bomb plumes which had a clear change in direction with altitude. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 12:37, 15 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Looking again, it's not as clear as it seemed, but I still see slight movement to the left, but it is roughly still. Definitely no movement the other way. Also, it may have drifted the other way earlier. Partly I'm thinking about origin areas. Above I noted the white cloud northeast of the tel. That is the same color as this. It might be what spread all to the left, and something spread a bit to the right along the tel's north face. Or maybe a similar cloud emerged at the crater area off the left side and drifted right, as the other's smoke drifted southwest behind the tel. There also seems to be a center of spread off to the southwest, right side distance, spreading west and northwest, split around a low hill, perhaps. Might be that impression making me see the consistent movement. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Color: I retract yellow-ish - I can't make out a color, even after enhancing it. This seems to be a widespread white fog. Is this sarin? It was said to smell bad, burn the eyes, and be yellow, but this seems white, though it might stink. I should think if this was all sarin, half the town would have died. So if not, could it be anything legit from the attack, or is it maybe the other, less toxic poison used? Or just some effects smoke to paint their picture of big sarin release? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun - Ibaa News Agency 0m09s.jpg|thumb|Blast seen on [[Ibaa News Agency]] video]]<br />
Theodore Postol now says he had the weather data 180 degrees wrong. The wind was blowing from the east. See:<br />
* [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_error_fixed_evidence_against_sarin_attack_remains_convincing_20170421 With Error Fixed, Evidence Against ‘Sarin Attack’ Remains Convincing] - ''ThuthDig'', April 21, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Well he is simply wrong. I explained elsewhere about this. Not only does the regional data disagree with him, the video evidence disagrees with him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yz6kBW8G8 In this video] at 1:05 wind is blowing towards the rising sun i.e. from West to East (plus some not well seen North/South component). They very helpfully zoom in in the base of the cloud and so we know it's under the inversion and therefore highly relevant to ground level gas dispersion. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: OK, we've switched positions somewhat on the wind and disagreeing differently. That's the video I called unclear above. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw Better version.] There's a definite shear to the left higher up (so east, towards the sun, but it seems past tense, now sitting still), but surface wind matters (as you've noted, and know more than I about). At the base, I'd say the direction is a bit to the left, so the east, and towards the camera. This seems to be looking a bit SE, so that I think makes it almost northerly wind (to the north). It doesn't seem strong. AND I'll add [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs the main 3-plumes view] shows about the same, if clearer - a bit left and towards the camera, looking almost due south. So that would seem well-founded, but...<br />
<br />
::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=6 here] we face north-NW and the wind clearly moves to the left, away from the sun, so to the west or W-SW. And [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-tFer-pLVw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=5 here] (and odd view, possibly not connected) it's the same, facing NE, it rolls away and to the left. So seems like winds changed a lot, if these all show the same day - almost seems wind always move left, whether you're facing north or south. Is that even plausible (to have such variation in one short span)? But the predicted direction Postol used is pretty close to one of the seen directions. So ... I just switched my position again after noting the 3-plumes view - it seems like a tie, and both directions are right. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQA7hliJCY is obviously a different day. Wind much faster and heavy cloud in background. The clincher of course is it was uploaded on April 3<br />
::: The second one also was uploaded in 3 April.<br />
<br />
::: Regarding wind and elevation. It's entirely possible for the ground wind to be a significantly different direction to the winds higher above an inversion. There was an inversion in KS on the day. The winds were very light, so changes with direction with altitude are entirely possible, if not expected.<br />
<br />
::: Getting onto Postol. He got the direction wrong by 180 degrees in his first go and managed to produce something looking authorative.<br />
::: He then switched direction (as a result of my telling him of his error) and produced yet another authorative looking report.<br />
<br />
::: I don't think either report is worth consideration. The data he uses is completely unreliable to start with and he makes conclusions he can't possibly make given the lack of data. At best it's a hypothetical / descriptive exercise but nothing of scientific or forensic merit for the facts on the day at Khan Sheikhoun. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: OK, sorry then - both were uploaded even Aug. 3 in Syria time - one about midnight (almost the 4th) and the other hours earlier. No wonder the winds were so different. Pretty consistent visual direction then, FWIW. And the basement home would be upwind from the crater. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== New York Times video ==<br />
<br />
''The New York Times'' has done good work matching photographs of bomb damage to fresh satellite images.<br />
* [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html How Syria and Russia Spun a Chemical Strike] - ''The New York Times'', April 26, 2017 ([https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 video])<br />
Their key claim is fraudulent. The witness who made [[:File:72247 1 26-syriachemws wg 720p.mp4 snapshot 01.3.jpg|this video]] says the Syrian jet dropped four bombs. ''NYT'' agrees. They match three blasts to photos from the ground. They then claim: ''"More video from that day show a fourth strike nearby. We don't see the strike in the first video, but we know the crater is new because it was not there in earlier satellite photos."'' The "video from that day" clearly show the fourth strike in question happened nowhere near the crater. Yet they use the witness testimony of four bombs and video of a fourth blast as proof that a Syrian bomb created the crater. This is fraud! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The NYT video rubbishes the Russian statement of a bomb run between 11:30 and 12:30. What the NYT doesn't do is reference the two different videos from the cave complex about that time showing bombs being dropped - confirming the Russian statement of a bombing raid on teh Eastern outskirts.<br />
<br />
: Separately, I have read but can't find the reference that there were two bomb runs in the early morning with a total of six bombs dropped. I'm unsure if that was two aircraft, or the same aircraft doing two bomb runs. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BBC link victims to houses ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg|thumb|Abo Rabeeea's house (blue) and al-Youssef house (red) geolocated]]<br />
:''Moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims]]<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::BBC clip starts from showing him 'returning to the scene' (possibly not his house), so I guess this is what you geolocated, 'the scene'? May be good to add a link with location on interactive map like google/yandex so geolocation can be checked by somebody having doubts but not the time to do it oneself. 320 meters SW from crater may be not much affected. At last in one version, wind is from S-SW making this place upwind. Downwind strongly affected area was estimated at 50-200 meters (reliability of that is uncertain, but being upwind and far amplify each other in having little effect)<br />
::Wonder do we know where is his house relative to crater ? (BBC shows him entering his house after a cut, so probably not. He stayed in the house for a long time after feeling dizzy elsewhere; so house must be in unaffected area). --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 00:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Yeah, I totally forgot to add the locations to the page, thank you for mentioning that. The clip has some erratic storytelling with no clear beginning and end, I'm not even sure whether the path they took(marked with the white line in the map) is the same as Abo Rabeeea's route on that day, or it's just an arbitrary one. In any case it sounds like the old man first went to the place of the [[:File:CW_Khan_Sheikhoun_2017_plumes_view.png|second "airstrike"]], probably just to check out what happened. There ha saw the kids(dead? unconscious? struggling?), but soon he started to feel dizzy so he headed home, and just as he arrived, he lost consciousness. His [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b home] is actually pretty close to the closest (allegedly)[[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_civil_defense_home.jpg|affected home]] we know of(~50m), but his exposure to the chemicals happened(started, at least) at the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448118&lon=36.646067&z=19&m=b other place], also ~320-340m from the crater. If he took the BBC route, then he stayed more than 300m away from the crater for the entire duration of his journey. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 10:06, 5 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg&diff=37191File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg2017-05-05T09:21:04Z<p>Q: Added locations</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of BBC's walk-through with the chemical attack victim 'Abo Rabeeea'.<br />
<br />
Source: [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep']<br />
<br />
Locations:<br />
<br />
*Abo Rabeeea's house: [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.447598&lon=36.646772&z=19&m=b (35.447598,36.646772)]<br />
*"Amira Saleh's children were here", at 01:40 in the clip: [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448127&lon=36.646214&z=19&m=b (35.448127,36.646214)]<br />
*"and Abdul Hamid al-Yousef's children too", at 01:44 in the clip, Abo Rabeeea points to this location approximately : [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448120&lon=36.645780&z=19&m=b (35.448120,36.645780)] <br />
<br />
NOTE: Abo Rabeeea was NOT exposed to the chemicals at his home.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37167Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-04T23:05:30Z<p>Q: /* BBC link victims to houses */ - Second thoughts</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The BBC clip was indeed cut in a retarded way(seriously, why?), so I made an [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg|image]] to make its understanding easier. The old man seems to have some medical condition that causes amnesia/loss of orientation. I still find it interesting that there were unconscious bodies ~320m SW of the claimed chemical attack crater, and apparently the old man was also in that area when he started to feel dizzy. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 23:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8" al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
== Abu Rameea ==<br />
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. [[User:SteveMcIntyre]] ([[User talk:SteveMcIntyre|talk]]) 5 May 2017<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_Abo_Rabeeea_BBC.jpg&diff=37165File:Khan Sheikhun chemical Abo Rabeeea BBC.jpg2017-05-04T22:28:19Z<p>Q: Geolocation of BBC's walk-through with the chemical attack victim 'Abo Rabeeea'.
Source: [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep']
NOTE: Abo Rabeeea was NOT...</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of BBC's walk-through with the chemical attack victim 'Abo Rabeeea'.<br />
<br />
Source: [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep']<br />
<br />
NOTE: Abo Rabeeea was NOT exposed to the chemicals at his home.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37153Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-04T17:22:00Z<p>Q: /* Al-Saleh Family */ - Update2</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8" al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Update2, [https://rfsmediaoffice.com/2017/04/05/العثور-على-عائلة-بأكملها-ضحية-القصف-ال/ This report] claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187404 page] has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is not part of the al-Shayeh family.<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37151Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-04T16:30:21Z<p>Q: /* Al-Saleh Family */ - Update</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNoYXl8" al-Shayeh"], without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman on this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY video] is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37150Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-04T15:53:32Z<p>Q: /* BBC link victims to houses */ - First impressions</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I have a good idea where the old man's house is, but the video is cut in a very weird way, I'll work on it a bit later. According to him, the dead kids were around the same [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|place]] as one of airstrikes. The name "Amira Saleh" sounds suspiciously similar to the name of the mother in [[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Al-Saleh_Family|this]] family(Amira/Ameerah = Abeerah?). If they are the same person, it would be interesting to see how the kids ended up at that place, common sense tells me that they should have ran away from the fume, not towards the middle of it. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:52, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37148Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-04T15:27:45Z<p>Q: Al-Saleh Family</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== BBC link victims to houses ===<br />
<br />
Short BBC clip showing victims and walk-through by one victim 'Abo Rabeeea' showing the relationship of his house to other named victims [http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39800714/syria-gas-attack-victim-i-cant-sleep Syria 'gas attack' victim: 'I can't sleep'] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Opposition Fighter? ====<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Saleh Family ==<br />
[http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPXNhbGVofA== VDC lists] 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoUuLavOtJY this video]. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPWtoYWxlZHw= al-Khaleds], but the [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187272 mother] of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_circular_object_back.jpg&diff=37132File:Khan Sheikhun chemical circular object back.jpg2017-05-03T19:43:24Z<p>Q: Source: Human Right Watch, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Youtube video], screenshot taken at 02:02.
Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack
Category:Video screenshots</p>
<hr />
<div>Source: Human Right Watch, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Youtube video], screenshot taken at 02:02.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Video screenshots]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_circular_object_measurement.jpg&diff=37131File:Khan Sheikhun chemical circular object measurement.jpg2017-05-03T19:39:12Z<p>Q: Source: Human Right Watch, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Youtube video], screenshot taken at 02:07.
Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack
Category:Video screenshots</p>
<hr />
<div>Source: Human Right Watch, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVGDcReFz9k Youtube video], screenshot taken at 02:07.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Video screenshots]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37128Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-03T15:54:42Z<p>Q: /* Family relations */ - small fix</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Opposition Fighter? ===<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37127Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-03T15:33:00Z<p>Q: /* Family relations */ - small fixes + internal links</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Opposition Fighter? ===<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs were getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data], the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report], and some available interviews. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Abdel_Hameed_Alyousef|Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef]](?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
:::[[Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims#Mazin_Yusif| Mazin ___ al-Yousef]](13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37126Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-03T15:12:57Z<p>Q: /* Family relations */ - small fixes</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Opposition Fighter? ===<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs were getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data] and the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Kareem Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:::Mazin ___ al-Yousef(13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37125Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-03T15:04:42Z<p>Q: /* Al-Yousef Family */ - Family trees</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Opposition Fighter? ===<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
: Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Family relations ===<br />
Seeing so many Yousefs were getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEuZnVsbF9uYW1lfHNvcnRkaXI9QVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= VDC's data] and the new [https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf HRW report] --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Fatima Elwan(F) ???<br />
::Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40-44M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD<br />
:::Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD <br />
:::Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD<br />
::Abdul Kareem Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD<br />
::Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?) DEAD<br />
:::Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) - DEAD<br />
:::Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) - DEAD<br />
::Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE<br />
::FEMALE SIBLING ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar ???<br />
:::Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) - DEAD<br />
::Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef ??? - unknown wife ???<br />
:::Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE<br />
<br />
<br />
:Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ??? <br />
::Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?<br />
<br />
<br />
:Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE <br />
::Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD <br />
::Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:::Mazin ___ al-Yousef(13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi <br />
<br />
<br />
:Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???<br />
::Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
:::Nour Nihad al-Yousef DEAD<br />
::Hind Turky al-Yousef(58-69F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family <br />
<br />
<br />
:Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???<br />
::Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???<br />
::Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???<br />
::Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
:Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD<br />
<br />
<br />
--- only listed in the HRW report ---<br />
<br />
<br />
:Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
:Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Victims&diff=37120Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims2017-05-03T12:13:45Z<p>Q: /* Yousef al-Yousef */ - video</p>
<hr />
<div>== Head Wounds ==<br />
:''moved from [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Head Wounds]]''<br />
Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 1.png|640px]] <br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 head wounds 2.png|center]]<br />
<br />
Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/idlib-cw-false-flag-covers-for-islamist.html Taken to the Monitor already]<br />
<br />
That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.<br />
<br />
Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.<br />
<br />
The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.<br />
[[File:CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 kids match 1.png|center|660px]]<br />
Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Bodies of the Child Victims ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Bodies of the Child Victims]]''<br />
<br />
Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:A good observation! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced report] has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.<br />
<br />
First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Is [https://twitter.com/ShehabiFares/status/852133065640038401 this] the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story. <br />
<br />
:So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In a [http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/the-white-house-report-ttg.html post on SST], TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that ''A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director.'' Can we confirm these last two findings? [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes, all this is in the photo and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&t=1m13s video] record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Victim parade ===<br />
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHMbrzRCnsD4RtBmA0mzppt a playlist.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Al-Yousef Family ==<br />
:''moved from: [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017#Al-Yousef Family]]''<br />
The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdel Hameed Alyousef ===<br />
* [http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-buries-his-twin-baby-sons-killed-in-syria-gas-attack-20170405-gveot2.html Telegraph sourced wire story] naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.<br />
<br />
The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives. <br />
<br />
::The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members.<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-twins-killed_n_15835170.html Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack] - ''Huffington Post''<br />
* [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/06/father-bids-farewell-to-twin-babies-after-syria-attack.html Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack] - ''Fox News''<br />
* [http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/06/father-cries-at-grave-of-twin-children-killed-in-syria-6558390/ Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack] - ''Metro.co.uk''<br />
* [http://www.nbcnews.com/video/father-grieves-as-he-visits-grave-of-twins-killed-in-suspected-syria-gas-attack-915255363952 Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack] - ''NBC News''<br />
* [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/06/the-dead-were-wherever-you-looked-inside-syrian-town-after-chemical-attack 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack] - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, ''The Guardian'', April 6, 2017<br />
*:''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.<br />
*:''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.<br />
* [http://www.trtworld.com/mea/erdogan-meets-syrian-who-lost-twin-babies-in-chemical-attack-331727 Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack] - ''TRT WORLD'', April 7, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - <small>updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member [https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/852134321045504000] [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake:<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/stfnews/videos/1369079513169155/ SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED] - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was ''not'' 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Video found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl] - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
;More videos:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThWU2Aonr4 CBS news interview] - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration. <br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3QVFgiXFg&index=154&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks,] (in an interview via headphones?)<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_c4uUOCFs same]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATDGJMQCIQ sleepy, IV in hand]<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28<br />
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk<br />
<br />
[[File:AbdelHameed Yusuf comp.png|center|800px]]<br />
<br />
==== Proof man? ====<br />
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/abdelhamid-al-yousef-proof-man.html Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?]<br />
Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::: I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure. <br />
<br />
:::As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Story on his Facebook page [https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/02/father-of-invention-media-portrayed-grief-stricken-dad-turns-out-to-be-al-nusra-front-terrorist/ Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist] --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Khalid al-Yusuf ===<br />
* [https://www.buzzfeed.com/munzeralawad/victims-of-syrias-chemical-attack-say-theyre-thrilled-after?utm_term=.xmvaZxEjE#.ipbArky9y Buzzfeed] has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.[[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Mazin Yusif ===<br />
* Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? [[User:Withnail|Withnail]] ([[User talk:Withnail|talk]]) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-attack-turkey-hospital-boy/index.html CNN], [http://netizen24.com/syria-chemical-attack-russia-explanation-rejected/ another] citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdul Hameed Yousef ===<br />
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8FLFNQpfM0 this video] filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]]<br />
<br />
: Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Abdelqader Al-Yousef ===<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQO_kGi4Gxs Zaman al-Wasl video,] after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."<br />
<br />
=== Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf ===<br />
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-hospital-airstrike-gas-attack.html?_r=0 Kingsley and Barnard, NYT]<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth."<br />
"when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."<br />
<br />
=== Yousef al-Yousef ===<br />
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, <s>says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey</s>. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:[https://twitter.com/EnoughWeapon/status/856044305001181184 NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter] gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb4-08lks5E video] with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Abu Amash Family ==<br />
[http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/survivors-of-syria-gas-attack-recount-horrors-1.2006173 Gulf News]<br />
[http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/syria-chemical-attack-victims-rushed-to-turkey-as-hospitals-overflow.html Fox News] <br />
:''At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.''<br />
:''The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.''<br />
:''“Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.''<br />
:''The attack killed at least 75 people...''<br />
And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The VDC's [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= list of 92] includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/ar/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8MT0lRDglQTMlRDglQTglRDklODgrJUQ4JUI5JUQ5JTg1JUQ4JUE3JUQ4JUI0fA== an Arabic search] for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/2066#.WPwjlqJw9rR Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash] high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was [http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/07/deaths-by-shooting-rebellion-starts-in.html they day] some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/63292#.WPwkpqJw9rR Shadi Abo Ammash] civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/86538#.WPwk_aJw9rR Diae Refat Abo Ammash] civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/137742#.WPwlR6Jw9rR Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash], "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014<br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/181113#.WPwg2KJw9rR Nisreen Abo Ammash] married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing. <br />
* [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/182193#.WPwmc6Jw9rR Amar Ahmad Abo Amash] FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016<br />
<br />
::Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?<br />
<br />
:A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== El-Qedh Family ==<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOn5iONS4uA&list=PL796mCAhV1mi2nTefMfzTSGlee3-nkiJV&index=5 El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack] Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
VDC listings, from [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= big list of 92 victims] "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas":<br />
name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah: <br />
* Hind Turky '''al-Yousef,''' adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)<br />
* Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male<br />
* Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male<br />
* Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown<br />
* Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male<br />
* Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male<br />
* Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Nayef Family ==<br />
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.205163&lon=36.568336&z=14&m=b&search=Marzaf here on Wikimapia,] right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHwxPU5heWVmfA== 6 members of a Nayef family] from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Victims from Khatab ==<br />
Noting hostages were said to be seized from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, odd that a family from the neighboring town is included, and [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/details/martyrs/187315 "Samer"] age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4. A total of [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/martyrs/1/c29ydGJ5PWEua2lsbGVkX2RhdGV8c29ydGRpcj1ERVNDfGFwcHJvdmVkPXZpc2libGV8ZXh0cmFkaXNwbGF5PTB8cHJvdmluY2U9MTB8Y29kTXVsdGk9MTV8dGhpc0RhdGU9MjAxNy0wNC0wNHw= 28 dead] hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Timeline&diff=37077Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Timeline2017-05-02T19:55:07Z<p>Q: /* Solar reading of attack videos */ - NYT video</p>
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<div>{{Mainpage}}<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Timing]]<br />
<br />
== Recent Events Context == <br />
It's worth noting this attack - blamed on Syria or Russia (unclear so far) comes just as news broke of an apparent terrorist bombing in St. Petersburg (exact timing not clear yet) - the two events possibly help explain each other - Russia getting its fair retribution, or maybe taking unfair revenge ... and then likely not. It's a thought. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:56, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Frontlines_Hama.jpg|thumb|right]]<br />
: Checked location - and the province it is in, barely in Idlib, to not look as dumb as the Pentagon. ;o) It is there up center north to see on the Hama frontline image, but it's a good chunk away from the frontlines, savely hidden behind "rebel" stronghold Morek/Mork. This comes as their annual Hama offensive has turned out to be another desaster, and as Peto Lucem wrote as description to the latest map, they lost 85% of their temporal gains. Loss of fighters seems to be massive, as the SAA by now knows how to let them come and then greet them in open field. <br />
: At this point the mad butcher Assad decides to draw a little attention to this by slaughtering some innocent kids - how typical of him! --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:19, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Clearly the local battlefield timing is probably more relevant. Obvious revenge for the recent offensive, taken out on random innocents with something pointless and criminal. Seen that before. But if this comes out as a big bad Russian sarin attack, then that Russia connection will also stand out as likely. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:35, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Another thought, there was the third batch of green bus rides from al-Waer to Idlib on April 1, several hundred "rebels" with families. I could imagine Khan Sheikhoun would be one of the nearest "safe" spots in Idlib province to drop them when you start from Homs, and it's directly at the M5 motorway. Possible victim group of "traitors" who had surrendered to the regime? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:55, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== April 3 chlorine attack on al-Lataminah ===<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun chlorine victims.jpg|thumb|Suspected chlorine victims from al Habit in the White Helmets field hospital in Khan Sheikhoun on April 3rd.]]<br />
White helmets were [https://twitter.com/whitehelmets_sy/status/848996439653068800 reporting] of a chlorine attack on Khan Sheikhoun already on the evening of April 3.<br />
* [http://www.all4syria.info/Archive/399970 Dozens of cases of suffocation with chlorine gas in a rural Hama and Idlib] - ''All4Syria'', April 3, 2017 (عشرات حالات الاختناق بغاز الكلور في ريفي حماة وإدلب)<br />
*:''Dozens of civilians, including children, suffered from suffocation on Monday, April 3, following inhalation of toxic chlorine gas which is delivered by regime helicopter aircraft on the city of Al-Lataminah in north Hama and the town al Habit in the southern countryside of Idlib.<br />
The victims seem to have been taken to the White Helmets cave complex in Khan Sheikhoun. The [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun chlorine victims 2.jpg|photograph]] published by ''All4Syria'' is from the same treatment room where the April 4th victims are later seen. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:04, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Evidently al-Habit was bombed on April 3rd. This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-fiGLxjpuc video] claims it was done by Russian aviation. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:24, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Time of Attack? ==<br />
Actually we do not even know when the [[Ghouta CW attack]] happened. There was a coordinated release of videos. They could have been filmed weeks earlier. We never saw any sign of the funerals or the grave sites. The same here, the coordinated release could have been prepared for days or weeks. [http://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/breaking-chemical-weapons-attack-latamneh-hama-injures-70 One source] hinted this already happened 5 days ago. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Orient TV reporter Firas Karam [https://twitter.com/feraskaram01/status/849050540323594240 tweets] at 0:06 am GMT on April 4, 2017 ([https://web.archive.org/web/20170404134335/https://twitter.com/feraskaram01/status/849050540323594240 mirror])<br />
*''"tomorrow we are launching a media campaign to cover the airstrikes on Hama country side including the usage of CW"<br />
Translated [https://twitter.com/WithinSyriaBlog/status/849240804556242944 by] Within Syria. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:07, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:No, I think that refers to a second Latamna chlorine attack after the one they say killed Dr. Darwish. It's not far away though. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:34, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Or... it was at the time, and now maybe it's this event, as discussed below ... (catching up) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:37, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
All 10 rebel news agencies say this happened on April 4th, most with their own video. Half the world's media say this happened on April 4th. The White Helmets cave complex was bombed and partly destroyed on April 4th. Could all this happen on the same day?<br />
This is not the Al-Lataminah cave compound. If the stone wall is facing south, then the gas victims are seen 8 am in the morning, the bombed out building is shown around 5 pm. This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLmSJ_X6tk video] of the bombing is [http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ uploaded] at 13:26:39 UTC, so it breaks the timeline.<br />
The Russian MoD [https://www.rt.com/news/383522-syria-idlib-warehouse-strike-chemical/ says] that the Syrian Airforce bombed an "ammunition dump containing chemical weapons" east of the town of Khan Sheikhoun. There is a stone quarry 1.5 km east of Khan Sheikhoun that could maybe be the White Helmets site. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:21, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Alleged Bombing Video ===<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs Video of purported bomb strikes on Khan Sheikhoun ] uploaded 04:59 am UTC 4 Apr 2107. Local time 07:59 am. Sunrise at location is 06:14. This indicates that if image is as stated and it was uploaded on the same day the incident occurred, the strikes occurred some time between 06:14am and say 07:30am.<br />
<br />
Russian statement also refers to strikes between 11:30am and 12:30pm local time, so a second series of strikes seems likely.<br />
<br />
: Further statements about the first attack put it at 06:30 local time - which is not implausible given the sun angle. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:00, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The morning strikes are conventional ANFO bombs of the type used by SyAAF. These are not at all suitable to deliver a nerve-gas payload. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Trying to time a non-event that [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153862659254364&set=a.347364019363.125715.723364363&type=3 did not] happen is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?<br />
:Anyway, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6Jk5GVSZ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=60 this video] from the White Helmets compound seems to be the earliest. It is filmed just after sunrise. The upload by the White Helmets is not the original. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:56, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: That upload time is 09:14 local time so 2:45 after potential gas exposure. However as you note, this is recycled video and there are upload delays, so its closer to 06:30 - say 07:00? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
My impression is that Russia and Syria government report on what they have available, that there was an attack by their side in the afternoon. Knowing that chemical attack was reported in social media, they conjecture that rebel chemical weap. storage was hit. If chemical incident was definitely earlier, that may still be that it was provocation by the rebels (and rebels would benefit more, by far) --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman Avigdor Lieberman]: ''the two murderous chemical weapons attacks on civilians in the Idlib region in Syria and on the local hospital were carried out by direct and premeditated order of Syrian President Bashar Assad, with Syrian planes. I say this with 100 percent certainty. The cruelest thing...is that those who were evacuated from the area of the bombing to the hospital were attacked a second time with chemical weapons as Syrian army planes bombed the hospital''. To the question of whether Israel needs to respond to occurrences in Syria, the Defense Minister responded: “why do we need to do it ourselves? It’s the responsibility of the international community. I'm not ready for Israel to be the dick that the whole world pisses through. The world needs to take responsibility and, instead of just talking, needs to do something.”([http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4945986,00.html source])<br />
<br />
We are [[Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017#Timing|told]] that attacks were at 6:37 and 6:46 am. Not being a specialist, I understand that sarin symptoms develop within minutes, and those alive within several hours had low dose and likely survive ([http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/law/crime-and-law-enforcement/sarin-gas e.g.here]). Evacuations at dawn hours will likely take more than several minutes and people would arrive to treatment in pretty bad shape; apparently 'bombing a hospital' is matching quite freshly exposed people we seem to see on videos. However, one of those [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArEA3KPglg0&t=4m56s videos] (selected at random) shows shadows at about 1.5, below 2, of the height. That is roughly after 8.30 am, and not close to 6:46 am with 1 to 11 shadows. That much later after exposure, it's strange (though not impossible,--wind and stuff) that those people seem to develop distress right in front of our eyes, as if it just happened and they are urgently treated. Back to Libermann, wondering what's the grounds of 100% certainty. As DM he may know exactly where the planes were, when, and that they dropped something; but for the rest, it is coming from social media, and he may not see much more than what we do. Just to make sure, I am no fan of the regime or the backers, but this by itself is not sufficient for a genuine 100 % certainty; while unjustified accusations/actions likely will not accomplish much in practice and moreover, play their hand, instead.--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 23:49, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed in general. The scenes at the hospital almost seem too late, tending to 7:30 - 8:00 and later, by sun (all app.) The symptoms seem mixed and largely fake, to me. One guy seems to get worse suddenly as the camera draws near, etc. (same guy is gulping for air like a fish, which is realistic, but with his mouth closed, which makes no sense (maybe to keep the "foam" in until the good camera arrived? see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6Jk5GVSZ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=60 the early vid,] first seconds - it's the same guy seen with mass foam in [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File:IdlibGasDead5.jpg a quality photo] from later, when the sun had broken across his face). Sarin moves very quick - in a few seconds you know how bad it is - the body breaks it down very quick and it kills quick - it's a race in microseconds - if you survive the first 30 seconds you'll probably survive, and if not... (something to that effect, I'm not sure on exact times - it could be minutes, but not tens of minutes) So I don't buy people trucked to this place, laying in the mud and wiggling an hour or so later. Besides, they all have clean underwear, little or no cyanosis, etc. I don't think the place was gassed or they were gassed here, with sarin. Maybe gassed with something else longer-acting, and a number of fakers. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:53, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::In re: Resup and the ratio of shadow length to object length (S/O). Does anyone have a link to an app where you can input date, location, S/O and get time of day? I believe I have seen a website that does that.[[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 14:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Sorry, Denis, anyone else wondering the same. There are different ways, some more modern than what I use: [https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/ NOAA solar position calculator.] Move the red pin, not just the map, onto the right spot, set GMT +2, click DST, start guessing times and see what numbers appear at lower right "az/el" section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::In re: CL and sarin timing. Yeah, here's the interesting thing: people exposed to sarin run out of O2 (anoxic) b/c their breathing muscles are paralyzed. So by the time the brain realizes it's in trouble, it's too late to gasp, or gag, or cough, or scream, or try to suck more air because all of those things require the same paralyzed muscles that caused the anoxia. So when you see WH vids of people dramatically gasping for air, the WHs are kindly providing evidence that sarin was not the cause. It's a part of their public service to Syria and internet sleuths everywhere.[[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 14:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
<br />
[[:File:HAQ News Agency.jpg|Haq News Agency]] says on its Facebook page that the [https://www.facebook.com/Agency.news.Haq/posts/1277764622304444 attack happened] at 6:55 am. The are also the source of the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] that shows the explosions. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:52, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::6:55 is close enough I'd presume 6:46 event, reporting over minutes, Haq hears it at 6:55 and notes event as just then. Unless they have more contradictory specifics. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Solar reading of attack videos ===<br />
<br />
I tried reading solar azimuth (direction to the sun) from how it wraps around circular things (minarets, dome), in the distance views below. I could only say it's between 82 and 113 degrees, so anywhere from sunrise to 9:30. I cannot even see a time difference between the views, unless mmmaybe ... the fog scene is a bit earlier. It should be later. But visually, it seems to all be the same basic time, so - if this is really all from the same day - those blast plumes disappeared and that fog spread out - or vice-versa? - very quickly. A strong wind could help, maybe the one seen. The direction seems about right for that.<br />
[[File:4-4-2017 pan plumes vs fog.jpg|center|900px]]<br />
<br />
Next, I'll use the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw other view] of the rightmost plume to see if it's got better shadows I can read. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: At 0:13 on the left side are some building with lit faces we can see. That's odd. They have to have a peculiar rotation. If the FoV is from further back (north) than we thought, we might be looking at the only small patch of buildings I see in that area with a partly east-partly north orientation that could explain this ([http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.445489&lon=36.641057&z=18&m=b centered here on Wikimapia]). Those faces run 112 on the compass, so they'd catch oblique light almost up to 9:23 am. At the moment, they appear fully in light. <br />
<br />
::On the left-most lit-up building, the little ledges that stop at the (stairwells?) seem to stick about about half as wide as the gap between them. If we take the cast shadows as being just that long (could be longer) the azimuth would be almost exactly 87 degrees here, which is 6:47 am. As those little shadows seem to run fully across the gaps, I don't think it can be any earlier than that. It could be later. Not a super-solid finding, but seems decent to me. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The winds in all instances I've seen from the day appear to be very light. You(?) uploaded a video of stronger winds but it was from at least the day before (3 April)<br />
<br />
: The foggy picture appears marginally later in the day than the unfoggy version. This is based on the amount of illumination on the minarets - speaking which, what happened to the one the middle - essentially absent in the non-fog version. Is that an artefact of stitching? Or is the fog picture from some date prior before the minaret was demolished? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The minaret in front of the tell is there, but the image is fuzzy for two reasons. 1) The camera takes interleaved video, but it is distributed over a non-interleaved digital channel, producing a double image. 2) The minaret seems to be in the shadow of one of the blast plumes. The later fact could help in geolocating the plumes. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Charles, thanks. What Petri says about the minaret. He explains it better. And his note about it not seeming lit up is important. Hadn't thought of that, and it might just help. <br />
<br />
:: More light visible in the fog view: That's what I was seeing too. But that's a problem here, as we look at the ''north side'' of things. We're in different hemispheres, but the same should apply in both, just reversed. The sun rises (a bit north of) east, arcs to due east shortly after rising, then south as it rises ... near sunrise (6:16-17 am), more light wrapping around should mean it's ''earlier,'' with the light still coming from north of due east. 90 degrees east was reached around 7:09 am, and the bombing scene ''should'' be 6:46, with the fog coming later, and less sunlight wrapping around, not more. <br />
<br />
:: Further, I tried considering elevation, and it seems the little ridges on the minarets are a bit lighter underneat in the fog view, more shadowed in the bombing view, which says the same thing.<br />
<br />
:: That seems problematic to me, because I can't easily see this fog dissipating, then a dubious bombing run, and a fresh white cloud started again ... so it could be these are different days (but filmed from the same spot - people do frequent spots), or that's a coincidental pre-attack fog, a pre-attack gas release, or ... maybe it is later, and just the abundance of light causes more wrap-around and more light everywhere, even under the minaret ridges. Although light seems less abundant, I guess as a wind roughly towards the sun blew all those smoke plumes into the path of the light. <br />
<br />
:: Need to review other details of what's lit ... So far I've been saying they appear about the same time, so the changes were fairly swift. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: (continue here)<br />
<br />
I ran with what Petri noted above - this "missing" minaret appears to not be lit up, so maybe it's in a shadow? Seemed worth checking. If we take this as app. 6:47 am, just after the last jet pass US intel claims to have tracked, the sun would be at about 87 degrees on the compass. I checked where Bellingcat placed that minaret and agree - it's the furthest north among them. Here in purple, yellow shows sunlight angle to possible big thing - quite likely triangulating the position of the leftmost, biggest, nearest, plume #1. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:20, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-4-2017 minaret shadow Plume1.jpg|center]]<br />
<br />
I also think plume #2 casts a shadow on the tel, which means it must be further out on its line of sight, further south, almost west of the tel. The white cloud also seems to, just from being closer. If so, the two shadows are close, so they're close together almost on a line from the tell to the E-NE. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:20, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: You have the right idea, but you are looking at the wrong plume, the first one couldn't cast a shadow on the minaret at that time, but the second one could, and probably did([https://s12.postimg.org/dtnr1fivx/KS-ex.jpg quick map]). The second plume most likely comes from the "bombed house" marker east of the minaret, here are some ground [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|photos]] from the same area. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 13:10, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: With a freshly damaged home, damaged by these bombs, you could set depth like that ... I can't vouch for it yet, but I imagine you've got good reason. I do think I see a big shadow on the tel, which would fit better with plume 2 being further south (and that could be part of why it looks so much smaller). But maybe they are that close, and if so... that's an exact spot. S line between there and the minaret runs 78 degrees, not 87. But the plume had some width, and the distance is short, so I suppose it could well fit. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: I always assumed that the dark areas of the hill are there because of it's shape/uneven ground, plume number 3 is too short to cast a shadow on it, and I never suspected the other plumes to be that far south. NYT's [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html video] has a segment that was filmed from a place SW of the minaret ([https://s30.postimg.org/km6fk26s1/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4_snapshot_01.3.png screenshot at 01:36]), to me it looks like that despite the wind, the first plume is still a bit north of the start of the second plume at that point, so it's shadow would be north of the minaret(at the other side of the road). The second plume is around at the right place, but there are some problems with the shape, I'm not sure how that could work. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 19:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== First signs of chemical exposure ===<br />
I finally watched through my playlist. There is no sign of anything happening in Khan Sheikhoun before 10 am. The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6rqgSGclUw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f first video] is uploaded by Assi Press Center at 06:33:22 UTC. It is is typical [[massacre porn]], that avoids showing any context. Dead children in a pickup truck. For all we know this could be from Ghouta in 2013. Other early videos show alleged events at hospitals. This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu-Zw3cJoI&index=31&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f video] is filmed outside, but the shadows are already quite short. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:41, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I tried an Arabic Twitter search for Khan Sheikhoun and found at least these two:<br />
* Under the chemical bombardment Allah suffices us and Yes, the agent - [https://twitter.com/Badger_Omar/status/849114981920538624 Apr 3 9:22 pm] = 4:22am on the 4th UTC = 7:22am Syria<br />
* [https://twitter.com/braaaseralkdar/status/849118041170378753 Another at 9:34] = 7:34. <br />
I suspect it is a little slow, for some reason, taking about an hour before anyone hears about it. But, that's not very long, so it'll be debatable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:12, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
As for the ones cited above, The Assi press video just says bodies were being shown no later than 9:30-ish local time. The noon video is in Maarat al-Numan close to noon, on n-s street w/divider ... elevation by ambulance shadows app. 60-65 deg., so it must be noon - 12:36 pm, 60.4 degrees elevation. So nearly six hours later, they're still hauling dead-ish people around to hospitals. Shadow azimuth across the street suggests it doesn't run due north, but rather slants to the northeast, FWIW. <br />
<br />
=== By Solar Readings ===<br />
:(this may require some discussion before going on the front page)<br />
<br />
Solar readings on earliest images with victims: I've been adding notes to some photos I can roughly time by shadows. They keep coming out around 8-8:30 am, give or take. Petri has been getting earlier estimates. <br />
<br />
* The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6Jk5GVSZ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=60 possible earliest video] as cited above has a guy's shadow, upper left, 0:47 - app. head shadow to boots is visible and left-to-right with little foreshortening. I had to estimate his height ... - sugg. elevation around 20-25 degrees. That would be 7:58-8:23 am. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun cave complex at 7 am.jpg|Khan Sheikhoun cave complex at 7 am.jpg]] - Azimuth: I tried eyeballing where the far entrance structure corner runs to where this guy is standing - his shadow is on that same line. The line I drew was 99 degrees. That's not exact, but seems close. It comes out to 8:09 am. Est: 7:55-8:20 --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun - Halab Today TV 0m30s.jpg|Khan Sheikhoun - Halab Today TV 0m30s.jpg]] - Drawing a triangle between the top of the ambulance (line at back end, before the door), where that line meets the ground, and the top of its shadow, on a line parallel to other shadows directly gives about 24 degrees solar elevation. Foreshortening adds a bit to length, dropping the angle to, say, 20-23 degree range. That yields 7:58 to 8:13 am. This one at least I'll show my work, hope it makes sense. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-4-17 Halab Today TV timed.png|800px]]<br />
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* [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun hosing EMC.jpg|Khan Sheikhoun hosing EMC.jpg]] - Sunlight is roughly down the side of the angled truck in the center, parked less than 45 degrees (wide 20-35 range) relative to the back (right-hand) wall, which runs app. 75 degrees on the compass. Azimuth: range app. 95-110 deg = app. 7:45 - 9:15, weighted early, so a good estimate is = 8:20 +/- 25 min. That's broad. Elevation: Estimating shadow length to height ratio, eyeballed, I think the shadows are only about 2-3x the person's height. (2x = 26 deg = 8:28am, 2.2x body height = 22 deg = 8:08 am, 3x = 18 deg. = 7:48, 4x = 14 deg. = 7:28). Seeing how they line up, I would be confident to say it's probably about 8:15-8:30, maybe 15-20 min. earlier or later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Hospital Attack Time ===<br />
US military says A jet was overhead Khan Sheikhoun at 0337z and 0346z. Add 2 hours for local time, you get 5:37 and 5:46 am. DST might add to the, making it 6:37 and 6:46. Rebels say attack is around 6 am - video suggests low sunlight and cold air, which means early morning, as victims are displayed - but Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem "said the government's first strike happened at 11:30 a.m., about five hours after reports of the chemical attack emerged." ([http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-idlib-chemical-attack/index.html CNN])<br />
<br />
: Local time was on daylight saving. So UTC + 3. Video of attack was a bit after sunrise which was at ~ 06:18 (UTC+3) so bombing attack was in the period 06:30 to 07:00 and admitted attack at 11:30 am. Local solar noon was at 12:37 (UTC+3) [https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/syria/damascus?month=4&year=2017 Time & Date]--[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 01:12, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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CNN also notes Moallem says that hit a chemical weapons depot fro al-Nusra front, and how "Russia said that the deaths were caused by the Syrian regime strike on the munitions depot. But several chemical weapons experts dismissed Russia's claims as "chemically impossible" and "laughable."" And, unless we reject Syria's claim as to when, the sunlight angle and cold air show the people were dead hours earlier than that (that's also presuming same day) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:12, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:So, by the Trump admin. story, all bombing was done in the span 6:37 to 6:46, right? If so, it should be visible before victims were gathered and displayed there (that'll take more than 9 minutes). But no damage or sense of recent attack is evident in the videos. I had a look at [https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ Bellingcat's work on this:] it suggests when the hospital was hit, the larger building had its back end blown out, leaving the roof sloping down. That, we can see, is intact in the earlier views. So ... '''was it hit later than the US says?''' <br />
[[File:Khan-Skeikhoun 4-4-17 Hospital Damage.png|center]]<br />
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I tried to measure this - south building facade line runs around 75 degrees on the compass - presuming the same basic angle for the two structures behind it, sunlight in the later view is mainly hitting the south face, east walls in shallow shadow. My visual try for azimuth (compass direction to the sun): 173-177 degrees = 12:23-12:32 pm. The government says its first strike happened at 11:30 a.m. Earliest proof it was hit: about an hour later. <br />
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Five hours earlier, '''that wasn't hit yet.''' Exact time doesn't matter enough, but ... sun mainly hitting east walls, but also breaking across the south face surface, so at an azimuth of least 80 degrees. What angle, not sure. [https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/ The NOAA solar calculator] (set to location, date, GMT+2, DST on) says:<br />
* It was already 82.37 degrees at sunrise, 6:16 am. <br />
* At 6:37 it would be 85.4 degrees, <br />
* at 6:46 it'd be 86.7 deg. <br />
In each case, subtract 75 to gt app. angle of incidence relative to the wall. What do we think? Is maybe even later?<br />
Solar elevation: how long are people's shadows relative to their height? Looks like about 3x, maybe 2.5, or 4 times?. <br />
* 2.5x body height = 22 deg = 8:08 am<br />
* 3x = 18 deg. = 7:48 <br />
* 4x = 14 deg. = 7:28<br />
* app. 10x = 5.44 deg. = 6:46<br />
* app. 15x = 3.7 deg. = 6:37 <br />
Between these, it would be nice to get a best time estimate, and set a time frame during which that damage happened. And It's worth double-checking what the Trumpco claim really is. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:33, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The point was, it's clearly nowhere near 6:30 when that place is damaged, but as I explain below, that appeared relevant but then I guess it isn't. But to seal the deal, and for what it's worth:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Hadi Abdullah? video] around noon, at the crater by the silos - a distant plume to the southeast lines up with the cave hospital, hit recently. I made a graphic to show that, but it's not needed now.<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68&index=16&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf another video] seems to be filmed in the hospital as it's hit. People rush outside after the blast, there's smoke, the building is damaged, it's noon. Another plume rises to the south from something hit recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:10, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This is a bit confused, but apparently, it was ''not'' alleged (by most) to be hit around 6:30. <br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reported] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." That suggests it was in the cited 6:37-6:46 window when people were said to be gassed. <br />
<br />
* And [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/at-least-72-dead-in-suspected-chemical-attack-in-syria.html Fox News reports] "A hospital in Syria's northern Idlib province was hit soon after the area was bombarded with a suspected chemical agent, an AFP correspondent reported."<br />
<br />
* but [abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-syrian-field-hospital-hit-chemical-attack-46564128 ABC reports] at 2:35 p.m.: "Syrian opposition activists say an airstrike has hit a small field hospital in a town in northern Syria where a suspected chemical weapons attack took place earlier in the day. The head of the opposition's civil defense force in Khan Sheikhoun, in Idlib province, says the hospital was struck hours after the alleged gas attack that killed dozens of people.''<br />
<br />
* and [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/world/syria-military-strikes-donald-trump-russia/index.html CNN reports] "The US military official said the Pentagon was examining specifically whether a Russian warplane had bombed a hospital in Khan Sheikhoun five hours after the initial chemical attack, with the aim of destroying evidence. A US defense official says intelligence shows a Russian drone flew over the hospital in Idlib that was treating victims of the chemical attack, prior to the site being later bombed by an unknown aircraft." <br />
<br />
Syria claims an attack on a militant base in the area around 11:30. So I guess the firstreport was confused and meant they think it was Syrian jets that hit the hospital ''after'' the chemical attack, and it wasn't the Russians as they were considering. It's unclear if they still think they know the motive and it was to cover up evidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:59, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68 This Video] by Maaz Al-Shaami shows a bomb strike on the underground hospital at around noon judging by the sun angle. So the conclusion is there were two air raids. One at 06:30 to 07:00 local time involving gas and a second at 11:30 to 12:30 using conventional bombs on the underground hospital at least. Incidentally, the second raid had beige bomb clouds so very likely SyAAF aircraft did the bombing, not Russian. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:36, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: At 00:12 in the Maaz al-Shaami video it looks very much like Had al-Abdullah there as well. How does this tie into Hadi being in-town as referenced elsewhere on this page? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 11:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::[http://sn4hr.org/blog/2017/04/04/suspected-russian-forces-shelled-scd-center-khan-sheikhoun-city-idlib-governorate-april-4/ SNHR:] "suspected Russian warplanes fired missiles on Civil Defense Center in Khan Sheikhoun city in Idlib governorate southern suburbs, destroying its building, damaging its equipment and an ambulance and rendering it inoperable on April 4, 2017." (photo) Same thing [https://twitter.com/snhr/status/849285941277716480 in a tweet,] and a bit earlier, "#RussianForces shelled al Rahma Hospital in #KhanSheikhoun city in #Idlib on April 4" (same place presumably, interior photo) That's from 4:12 pm local time, a long delay even after a noon strike. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:31, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== By clock times ==<br />
<br />
This [https://twitter.com/Rajarajan941 twitter account] contains links to embedded versions of Shajul Islam's hospital video showing digital clocks on the wall, and makes the point that some of the purported emergency treatment is as late as 2.30 pm [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 15:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Water triage ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun hosing EMC.jpg|thumb|The shadow drawn on the back wall of the [http://pictures.reuters.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&VBID=2C0BXZX35BHA4&POPUPPN=1&POPUPIID=2C0BF1SUNA1RL#/SearchResult&VBID=2C0BXZX35BHA4&POPUPPN=1&POPUPIID=2C0BF1SUZHENT emergency entrance] of the compound shows the time.]]<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun hosing Halab Today TV.jpg|thumb|The Halab Today TV [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeX-mKQjP0w&index=5&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf video] shows the same scene some half an hour later. Are victims being loaded on the truck or offloaded? Did the truck manage to pick up a fresh load of victims and then park in exactly the same spot in the yard already full of victims?]]<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters.jpg|thumb|Three children are seen dumped to the ground. Two hour later they are seen [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters on truck.jpg|on a pickup truck]] in downtown Khan Sheikhoun.]]<br />
:''Summary: The water triage scene looks staged, none of the "victims" received treatment at the White Helmets hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:26, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
I have spent the night looking at my [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf playlist of videos] from the White Helmets [[#Whora Hora|cave complex]]. I could not find any obvious continuity errors. On the other hand, I found no proof that any chemical weapons victims were ever treated at the White Helmets hospital.<br />
<br />
Ten of the videos form a timeline from about 9 am to late afternoon, that can with high confidence be dated to April 4th. <br />
<br />
The White Helmets are being very secretive about the early morning events at the cave complex. The videos of the hosing scene appeared only in the afternoon. Screenshots of the videos appeared online earlier. It is uncertain if this scene happened on April 4th at all. The clips that are available are very [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85QOmIYfLw&t=19m12s heavily] edited, 100% [[massacre porn]] with little if anything that could help in dating them. They were given to rebel news agencies and mixed with April 4 footage and interviews before publication. The strongest call for [[World War 3]] is in the ''SMART media'' [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&index=3&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf video] that was viewed on Facebook 20 million times.<br />
<br />
The hosing scene is typical White Helmets. Hysterical action and running around, without any purpose. The victims are likely brought in on white two flatbed pickup trucks. They are dumped on the ground and hosed with water from a fire engine parked inside the cave entrance. Later [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&index=3&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf we see] that the fire engine has been moved to near the entrance to the enclosed courtyard. At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&index=3&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf some point] children are packed into ambulances to be taken away, but it is never clear if the victims are coming in or going out. <br />
<br />
Two sisters and their likely little brother [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters.jpg|are seen]] dumped to the ground. Two hour later they are seen [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters on truck.jpg|on a pickup truck]] in downtown Khan Sheikhoun, in the first video claiming to show signs of a chemical attack.<br />
<br />
Later in the day (if this truly is the same day) there is something like an open house at the compound. Everything is very relaxed, except for the excitement caused by the midday bombing. No CW related medical work seems to be happening. Five bodies are shown, there may be ten total at the site. One girl is carried around in different levels of undress.<br />
<br />
The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=7 first video] in this series is by ''Orient News''. Shadows show that it is about one hour later in the day than in the hosing scene. One child with blood on his feet is seen in the treatment room. One body lies covered in sheets on the rightmost table. One small child is carried outside wrapped in a red blanket. There is no sign outside of the hosing scene ever happening.<br />
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Some [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98gL17wz3o8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=10 two hours later] we see that the treatment room has been totally cleaned up. There are clean sheets on the beds, fresh IV solution bags hang from the stands, waiting for new patients. AFP [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLyUmPMaLU&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=1 interviews a medic,] who said the hopital had received 200 patients ''today'', 50 of whom were dead. The dead girl lies on the table. In the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fWxtN6DQ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=11 next video,] by [[Aleppo Media Center]] she is carried outside. We see the body of one female outside and the bodies of two adult men in the motorcycle garage. Earlier photos of the garage show four other bodies that have evidently been taken away. All fighting age men, most with beards.<br />
<br />
Something happens around 12:30 am. A bomb explodes. The first we hear about it is in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF3KrDD3buE&index=12&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf fake video] by a Yaman Khateeb, who [http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gas-attack-kills-18-syrias-idlib-observatory-1708105490 reports] on it on his Facebook page [https://www.facebook.com/100006062851226/videos/1879498532262224/ at 12:39.] It is unlikely that a bomb outside would affect the treatment room. Instead someone seems to light a flare in the room.<br />
<br />
Later videos show part of the building outside the cave destroyed. The same bodies are there, so it must be the same day. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLmSJ_X6tk&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=14 Hadi Alabdallah] and his friend [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68&index=16&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf Maaz al-Shami] seem extremely exited about the blasts outside. I am not sure any Syrian bomb ever fell on the compound. The building looks like it was blown up from the inside. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:10, 10 April 2017 (UTC) <small>Updated 14:40, 12 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
<br />
=== Differences between Day X and April 4th ===<br />
Did the water triage scene really happen on April 4th?<br />
* There is a bench at the eastern end of the courtyard The Reuters [[:File:Lataminah White Helmets base.jpg|photo]] by Ammar Abdullah show some red sacks on it. These are missing from the Day X footage.<br />
* The same photo shows a blanket and some clothes on the platform outside the doorway. None of these are seen on the Day X footage.<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Petri, I'm getting oriented, at least spatially, with this scene; still confused temporally. That bench is actually a concrete slab. The best view of it is in the 2:02 SMART vid where all the spraying is going on. At about 00:30 there are three guys in their underwear lying prostrate on the slab/bench. Next to the R foot of the guy with the nice clean white undies there is an orange EMT body board. The same body board lying on the same slab is seen in the same vid at 00:27. The three guys are not there. This 00:27 view is very helpful<br />
<br />
:At the right end of the slab/bench is a doorway. At the left end of the slab/bench is a garage. A large white truck is backed into the garage. <br />
<br />
:Now go to the Abdullah image of the WH guy with the Canon-strap carrying the kid wrapped in blue plastic. There are several short vid clips showing this scene. It is the same spot as above. In this scene the grey/red ambulance #13 is parked in the garage. The same motorcycle is parked next to the garage in both scenes. The WH guy is walking toward the slab/bench. As you note, there are blankets or bags on the slab/bench. There is no body board and no guys in wet skivvies. In the photo there are virtually no shadows. In the 2:02 SMART vid, the ground is in shadow right up to and including the slab/bench. The ground is covered with water in the vid and no tire tracks, but not much water in the photo, only mucky with lots of tire tracks. I haven't figured out the sequence. <br />
<br />
:Of further interest in the 2:02 vid: at 01:30 a guy is spraying down someone on the ground. In the background is a dark car with a guy in white underwear hoping around like he is getting dressed or undressed. He throws something into the car. I think these actors are probably union, so he may be at the end of his shift. -- [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 04:35, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::I have ordered my [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf playlist] in what I believe to be the temporal order. In the end I have included videos that have short clips of additional footage. I believe the Ammar Abdullah [http://pictures.reuters.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2C0BF1SUN4N4N photos] and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MES_h5mGc8A&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=18 video] are taken on April 4th, before the bombing, as they show some of the same bodies as seen on April 4th, both before and after the bombing.<br />
::The bench I am speaking about is not the slab, but all the way back against the eastern wall of the courtyard. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:17, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== More Solar Readings ==<br />
* File:Qasioun News Agency Khan Shaikhoun.jpg - elev: 36-38 = time range app. 9:20-9:30 am. Az would be 111.5-113.5 at those times (rounded). That would make this a roughly E-W street, tending a bit NW-SE. Best fit for that is just south of the Tel. A spot I'll guess is [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441696&lon=36.644323&z=18&m=b&search=Hama here on Wikimapia.] Maybe that's not it, but I think we have the street, and it's not that long.<br />
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* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu-Zw3cJoI&index=31&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f video:] patients rushed to a hospital, it says, in Maarat al-Numan. The Assi press video just says bodies were being shown no later than 9:30-ish local time. The noon video is in Maarat al-Numan close to noon, on n-s street w/divider ... elevation by ambulance shadows app. 60-65 deg., so it must be noon - 12:36 pm, 60.4 degrees elevation. So nearly six hours later, they're still hauling dead-ish people around to hospitals. Shadow azimuth across the street suggests it doesn't run due north, but rather slants to the northeast, for geolocation (note divider in opening moments)). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs video:] Hadi Abdulla, no protection aside from a paper mask, at the crater April 4. The road runs 18 deg from north, and the parallel wall is just barely in shadow, so azimuth is about (180 + 15-17 =) 195-197 = 13:06 - 13:12, a half hour past solar noon at 12:36, almost 7 hours after the alleged sarin plume from here that affected some 500 people and killed over 100. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017/Timeline&diff=37071Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Timeline2017-05-02T13:10:35Z<p>Q: /* Solar reading of attack videos */ - Wrong plume</p>
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<div>{{Mainpage}}<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Timing]]<br />
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== Recent Events Context == <br />
It's worth noting this attack - blamed on Syria or Russia (unclear so far) comes just as news broke of an apparent terrorist bombing in St. Petersburg (exact timing not clear yet) - the two events possibly help explain each other - Russia getting its fair retribution, or maybe taking unfair revenge ... and then likely not. It's a thought. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:56, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Frontlines_Hama.jpg|thumb|right]]<br />
: Checked location - and the province it is in, barely in Idlib, to not look as dumb as the Pentagon. ;o) It is there up center north to see on the Hama frontline image, but it's a good chunk away from the frontlines, savely hidden behind "rebel" stronghold Morek/Mork. This comes as their annual Hama offensive has turned out to be another desaster, and as Peto Lucem wrote as description to the latest map, they lost 85% of their temporal gains. Loss of fighters seems to be massive, as the SAA by now knows how to let them come and then greet them in open field. <br />
: At this point the mad butcher Assad decides to draw a little attention to this by slaughtering some innocent kids - how typical of him! --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:19, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::Clearly the local battlefield timing is probably more relevant. Obvious revenge for the recent offensive, taken out on random innocents with something pointless and criminal. Seen that before. But if this comes out as a big bad Russian sarin attack, then that Russia connection will also stand out as likely. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:35, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::: Another thought, there was the third batch of green bus rides from al-Waer to Idlib on April 1, several hundred "rebels" with families. I could imagine Khan Sheikhoun would be one of the nearest "safe" spots in Idlib province to drop them when you start from Homs, and it's directly at the M5 motorway. Possible victim group of "traitors" who had surrendered to the regime? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:55, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== April 3 chlorine attack on al-Lataminah ===<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun chlorine victims.jpg|thumb|Suspected chlorine victims from al Habit in the White Helmets field hospital in Khan Sheikhoun on April 3rd.]]<br />
White helmets were [https://twitter.com/whitehelmets_sy/status/848996439653068800 reporting] of a chlorine attack on Khan Sheikhoun already on the evening of April 3.<br />
* [http://www.all4syria.info/Archive/399970 Dozens of cases of suffocation with chlorine gas in a rural Hama and Idlib] - ''All4Syria'', April 3, 2017 (عشرات حالات الاختناق بغاز الكلور في ريفي حماة وإدلب)<br />
*:''Dozens of civilians, including children, suffered from suffocation on Monday, April 3, following inhalation of toxic chlorine gas which is delivered by regime helicopter aircraft on the city of Al-Lataminah in north Hama and the town al Habit in the southern countryside of Idlib.<br />
The victims seem to have been taken to the White Helmets cave complex in Khan Sheikhoun. The [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun chlorine victims 2.jpg|photograph]] published by ''All4Syria'' is from the same treatment room where the April 4th victims are later seen. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:04, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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Evidently al-Habit was bombed on April 3rd. This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-fiGLxjpuc video] claims it was done by Russian aviation. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:24, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Time of Attack? ==<br />
Actually we do not even know when the [[Ghouta CW attack]] happened. There was a coordinated release of videos. They could have been filmed weeks earlier. We never saw any sign of the funerals or the grave sites. The same here, the coordinated release could have been prepared for days or weeks. [http://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/breaking-chemical-weapons-attack-latamneh-hama-injures-70 One source] hinted this already happened 5 days ago. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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Orient TV reporter Firas Karam [https://twitter.com/feraskaram01/status/849050540323594240 tweets] at 0:06 am GMT on April 4, 2017 ([https://web.archive.org/web/20170404134335/https://twitter.com/feraskaram01/status/849050540323594240 mirror])<br />
*''"tomorrow we are launching a media campaign to cover the airstrikes on Hama country side including the usage of CW"<br />
Translated [https://twitter.com/WithinSyriaBlog/status/849240804556242944 by] Within Syria. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:07, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:No, I think that refers to a second Latamna chlorine attack after the one they say killed Dr. Darwish. It's not far away though. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:34, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Or... it was at the time, and now maybe it's this event, as discussed below ... (catching up) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:37, 4 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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All 10 rebel news agencies say this happened on April 4th, most with their own video. Half the world's media say this happened on April 4th. The White Helmets cave complex was bombed and partly destroyed on April 4th. Could all this happen on the same day?<br />
This is not the Al-Lataminah cave compound. If the stone wall is facing south, then the gas victims are seen 8 am in the morning, the bombed out building is shown around 5 pm. This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLmSJ_X6tk video] of the bombing is [http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/custom-scripts/citizenevidence/ uploaded] at 13:26:39 UTC, so it breaks the timeline.<br />
The Russian MoD [https://www.rt.com/news/383522-syria-idlib-warehouse-strike-chemical/ says] that the Syrian Airforce bombed an "ammunition dump containing chemical weapons" east of the town of Khan Sheikhoun. There is a stone quarry 1.5 km east of Khan Sheikhoun that could maybe be the White Helmets site. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:21, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Alleged Bombing Video ===<br />
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs Video of purported bomb strikes on Khan Sheikhoun ] uploaded 04:59 am UTC 4 Apr 2107. Local time 07:59 am. Sunrise at location is 06:14. This indicates that if image is as stated and it was uploaded on the same day the incident occurred, the strikes occurred some time between 06:14am and say 07:30am.<br />
<br />
Russian statement also refers to strikes between 11:30am and 12:30pm local time, so a second series of strikes seems likely.<br />
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: Further statements about the first attack put it at 06:30 local time - which is not implausible given the sun angle. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 21:00, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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The morning strikes are conventional ANFO bombs of the type used by SyAAF. These are not at all suitable to deliver a nerve-gas payload. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 20:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Trying to time a non-event that [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153862659254364&set=a.347364019363.125715.723364363&type=3 did not] happen is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?<br />
:Anyway, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6Jk5GVSZ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=60 this video] from the White Helmets compound seems to be the earliest. It is filmed just after sunrise. The upload by the White Helmets is not the original. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:56, 5 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: That upload time is 09:14 local time so 2:45 after potential gas exposure. However as you note, this is recycled video and there are upload delays, so its closer to 06:30 - say 07:00? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 03:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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My impression is that Russia and Syria government report on what they have available, that there was an attack by their side in the afternoon. Knowing that chemical attack was reported in social media, they conjecture that rebel chemical weap. storage was hit. If chemical incident was definitely earlier, that may still be that it was provocation by the rebels (and rebels would benefit more, by far) --[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 06:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman Avigdor Lieberman]: ''the two murderous chemical weapons attacks on civilians in the Idlib region in Syria and on the local hospital were carried out by direct and premeditated order of Syrian President Bashar Assad, with Syrian planes. I say this with 100 percent certainty. The cruelest thing...is that those who were evacuated from the area of the bombing to the hospital were attacked a second time with chemical weapons as Syrian army planes bombed the hospital''. To the question of whether Israel needs to respond to occurrences in Syria, the Defense Minister responded: “why do we need to do it ourselves? It’s the responsibility of the international community. I'm not ready for Israel to be the dick that the whole world pisses through. The world needs to take responsibility and, instead of just talking, needs to do something.”([http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4945986,00.html source])<br />
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We are [[Alleged_Chemical_Attack_Khan_Sheikhoun_4_April_2017#Timing|told]] that attacks were at 6:37 and 6:46 am. Not being a specialist, I understand that sarin symptoms develop within minutes, and those alive within several hours had low dose and likely survive ([http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/law/crime-and-law-enforcement/sarin-gas e.g.here]). Evacuations at dawn hours will likely take more than several minutes and people would arrive to treatment in pretty bad shape; apparently 'bombing a hospital' is matching quite freshly exposed people we seem to see on videos. However, one of those [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArEA3KPglg0&t=4m56s videos] (selected at random) shows shadows at about 1.5, below 2, of the height. That is roughly after 8.30 am, and not close to 6:46 am with 1 to 11 shadows. That much later after exposure, it's strange (though not impossible,--wind and stuff) that those people seem to develop distress right in front of our eyes, as if it just happened and they are urgently treated. Back to Libermann, wondering what's the grounds of 100% certainty. As DM he may know exactly where the planes were, when, and that they dropped something; but for the rest, it is coming from social media, and he may not see much more than what we do. Just to make sure, I am no fan of the regime or the backers, but this by itself is not sufficient for a genuine 100 % certainty; while unjustified accusations/actions likely will not accomplish much in practice and moreover, play their hand, instead.--[[User:Resup|Resup]] ([[User talk:Resup|talk]]) 23:49, 8 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:Agreed in general. The scenes at the hospital almost seem too late, tending to 7:30 - 8:00 and later, by sun (all app.) The symptoms seem mixed and largely fake, to me. One guy seems to get worse suddenly as the camera draws near, etc. (same guy is gulping for air like a fish, which is realistic, but with his mouth closed, which makes no sense (maybe to keep the "foam" in until the good camera arrived? see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6Jk5GVSZ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=60 the early vid,] first seconds - it's the same guy seen with mass foam in [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File:IdlibGasDead5.jpg a quality photo] from later, when the sun had broken across his face). Sarin moves very quick - in a few seconds you know how bad it is - the body breaks it down very quick and it kills quick - it's a race in microseconds - if you survive the first 30 seconds you'll probably survive, and if not... (something to that effect, I'm not sure on exact times - it could be minutes, but not tens of minutes) So I don't buy people trucked to this place, laying in the mud and wiggling an hour or so later. Besides, they all have clean underwear, little or no cyanosis, etc. I don't think the place was gassed or they were gassed here, with sarin. Maybe gassed with something else longer-acting, and a number of fakers. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:53, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::In re: Resup and the ratio of shadow length to object length (S/O). Does anyone have a link to an app where you can input date, location, S/O and get time of day? I believe I have seen a website that does that.[[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 14:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:::Sorry, Denis, anyone else wondering the same. There are different ways, some more modern than what I use: [https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/ NOAA solar position calculator.] Move the red pin, not just the map, onto the right spot, set GMT +2, click DST, start guessing times and see what numbers appear at lower right "az/el" section. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::In re: CL and sarin timing. Yeah, here's the interesting thing: people exposed to sarin run out of O2 (anoxic) b/c their breathing muscles are paralyzed. So by the time the brain realizes it's in trouble, it's too late to gasp, or gag, or cough, or scream, or try to suck more air because all of those things require the same paralyzed muscles that caused the anoxia. So when you see WH vids of people dramatically gasping for air, the WHs are kindly providing evidence that sarin was not the cause. It's a part of their public service to Syria and internet sleuths everywhere.[[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 14:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC) <br />
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[[:File:HAQ News Agency.jpg|Haq News Agency]] says on its Facebook page that the [https://www.facebook.com/Agency.news.Haq/posts/1277764622304444 attack happened] at 6:55 am. The are also the source of the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYOMEDK_uVs video] that shows the explosions. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:52, 14 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
::6:55 is close enough I'd presume 6:46 event, reporting over minutes, Haq hears it at 6:55 and notes event as just then. Unless they have more contradictory specifics. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Solar reading of attack videos ===<br />
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I tried reading solar azimuth (direction to the sun) from how it wraps around circular things (minarets, dome), in the distance views below. I could only say it's between 82 and 113 degrees, so anywhere from sunrise to 9:30. I cannot even see a time difference between the views, unless mmmaybe ... the fog scene is a bit earlier. It should be later. But visually, it seems to all be the same basic time, so - if this is really all from the same day - those blast plumes disappeared and that fog spread out - or vice-versa? - very quickly. A strong wind could help, maybe the one seen. The direction seems about right for that.<br />
[[File:4-4-2017 pan plumes vs fog.jpg|center|900px]]<br />
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Next, I'll use the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTx0kmQnZLw other view] of the rightmost plume to see if it's got better shadows I can read. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
:: At 0:13 on the left side are some building with lit faces we can see. That's odd. They have to have a peculiar rotation. If the FoV is from further back (north) than we thought, we might be looking at the only small patch of buildings I see in that area with a partly east-partly north orientation that could explain this ([http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.445489&lon=36.641057&z=18&m=b centered here on Wikimapia]). Those faces run 112 on the compass, so they'd catch oblique light almost up to 9:23 am. At the moment, they appear fully in light. <br />
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::On the left-most lit-up building, the little ledges that stop at the (stairwells?) seem to stick about about half as wide as the gap between them. If we take the cast shadows as being just that long (could be longer) the azimuth would be almost exactly 87 degrees here, which is 6:47 am. As those little shadows seem to run fully across the gaps, I don't think it can be any earlier than that. It could be later. Not a super-solid finding, but seems decent to me. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: The winds in all instances I've seen from the day appear to be very light. You(?) uploaded a video of stronger winds but it was from at least the day before (3 April)<br />
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: The foggy picture appears marginally later in the day than the unfoggy version. This is based on the amount of illumination on the minarets - speaking which, what happened to the one the middle - essentially absent in the non-fog version. Is that an artefact of stitching? Or is the fog picture from some date prior before the minaret was demolished? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 07:26, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The minaret in front of the tell is there, but the image is fuzzy for two reasons. 1) The camera takes interleaved video, but it is distributed over a non-interleaved digital channel, producing a double image. 2) The minaret seems to be in the shadow of one of the blast plumes. The later fact could help in geolocating the plumes. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: Charles, thanks. What Petri says about the minaret. He explains it better. And his note about it not seeming lit up is important. Hadn't thought of that, and it might just help. <br />
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:: More light visible in the fog view: That's what I was seeing too. But that's a problem here, as we look at the ''north side'' of things. We're in different hemispheres, but the same should apply in both, just reversed. The sun rises (a bit north of) east, arcs to due east shortly after rising, then south as it rises ... near sunrise (6:16-17 am), more light wrapping around should mean it's ''earlier,'' with the light still coming from north of due east. 90 degrees east was reached around 7:09 am, and the bombing scene ''should'' be 6:46, with the fog coming later, and less sunlight wrapping around, not more. <br />
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:: Further, I tried considering elevation, and it seems the little ridges on the minarets are a bit lighter underneat in the fog view, more shadowed in the bombing view, which says the same thing.<br />
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:: That seems problematic to me, because I can't easily see this fog dissipating, then a dubious bombing run, and a fresh white cloud started again ... so it could be these are different days (but filmed from the same spot - people do frequent spots), or that's a coincidental pre-attack fog, a pre-attack gas release, or ... maybe it is later, and just the abundance of light causes more wrap-around and more light everywhere, even under the minaret ridges. Although light seems less abundant, I guess as a wind roughly towards the sun blew all those smoke plumes into the path of the light. <br />
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:: Need to review other details of what's lit ... So far I've been saying they appear about the same time, so the changes were fairly swift. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::: (continue here)<br />
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I ran with what Petri noted above - this "missing" minaret appears to not be lit up, so maybe it's in a shadow? Seemed worth checking. If we take this as app. 6:47 am, just after the last jet pass US intel claims to have tracked, the sun would be at about 87 degrees on the compass. I checked where Bellingcat placed that minaret and agree - it's the furthest north among them. Here in purple, yellow shows sunlight angle to possible big thing - quite likely triangulating the position of the leftmost, biggest, nearest, plume #1. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:20, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-4-2017 minaret shadow Plume1.jpg|center]]<br />
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I also think plume #2 casts a shadow on the tel, which means it must be further out on its line of sight, further south, almost west of the tel. The white cloud also seems to, just from being closer. If so, the two shadows are close, so they're close together almost on a line from the tell to the E-NE. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:20, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: You have the right idea, but you are looking at the wrong plume, the first one couldn't cast a shadow on the minaret at that time, but the second one could, and probably did([https://s12.postimg.org/dtnr1fivx/KS-ex.jpg quick map]). The second plume most likely comes from the "bombed house" marker east of the minaret, here are some ground [[:File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg|photos]] from the same area. --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 13:10, 2 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== First signs of chemical exposure ===<br />
I finally watched through my playlist. There is no sign of anything happening in Khan Sheikhoun before 10 am. The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6rqgSGclUw&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f first video] is uploaded by Assi Press Center at 06:33:22 UTC. It is is typical [[massacre porn]], that avoids showing any context. Dead children in a pickup truck. For all we know this could be from Ghouta in 2013. Other early videos show alleged events at hospitals. This [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu-Zw3cJoI&index=31&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f video] is filmed outside, but the shadows are already quite short. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:41, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
:I tried an Arabic Twitter search for Khan Sheikhoun and found at least these two:<br />
* Under the chemical bombardment Allah suffices us and Yes, the agent - [https://twitter.com/Badger_Omar/status/849114981920538624 Apr 3 9:22 pm] = 4:22am on the 4th UTC = 7:22am Syria<br />
* [https://twitter.com/braaaseralkdar/status/849118041170378753 Another at 9:34] = 7:34. <br />
I suspect it is a little slow, for some reason, taking about an hour before anyone hears about it. But, that's not very long, so it'll be debatable. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:12, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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As for the ones cited above, The Assi press video just says bodies were being shown no later than 9:30-ish local time. The noon video is in Maarat al-Numan close to noon, on n-s street w/divider ... elevation by ambulance shadows app. 60-65 deg., so it must be noon - 12:36 pm, 60.4 degrees elevation. So nearly six hours later, they're still hauling dead-ish people around to hospitals. Shadow azimuth across the street suggests it doesn't run due north, but rather slants to the northeast, FWIW. <br />
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=== By Solar Readings ===<br />
:(this may require some discussion before going on the front page)<br />
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Solar readings on earliest images with victims: I've been adding notes to some photos I can roughly time by shadows. They keep coming out around 8-8:30 am, give or take. Petri has been getting earlier estimates. <br />
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* The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6Jk5GVSZ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f&index=60 possible earliest video] as cited above has a guy's shadow, upper left, 0:47 - app. head shadow to boots is visible and left-to-right with little foreshortening. I had to estimate his height ... - sugg. elevation around 20-25 degrees. That would be 7:58-8:23 am. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun cave complex at 7 am.jpg|Khan Sheikhoun cave complex at 7 am.jpg]] - Azimuth: I tried eyeballing where the far entrance structure corner runs to where this guy is standing - his shadow is on that same line. The line I drew was 99 degrees. That's not exact, but seems close. It comes out to 8:09 am. Est: 7:55-8:20 --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun - Halab Today TV 0m30s.jpg|Khan Sheikhoun - Halab Today TV 0m30s.jpg]] - Drawing a triangle between the top of the ambulance (line at back end, before the door), where that line meets the ground, and the top of its shadow, on a line parallel to other shadows directly gives about 24 degrees solar elevation. Foreshortening adds a bit to length, dropping the angle to, say, 20-23 degree range. That yields 7:58 to 8:13 am. This one at least I'll show my work, hope it makes sense. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
[[File:4-4-17 Halab Today TV timed.png|800px]]<br />
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* [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun hosing EMC.jpg|Khan Sheikhoun hosing EMC.jpg]] - Sunlight is roughly down the side of the angled truck in the center, parked less than 45 degrees (wide 20-35 range) relative to the back (right-hand) wall, which runs app. 75 degrees on the compass. Azimuth: range app. 95-110 deg = app. 7:45 - 9:15, weighted early, so a good estimate is = 8:20 +/- 25 min. That's broad. Elevation: Estimating shadow length to height ratio, eyeballed, I think the shadows are only about 2-3x the person's height. (2x = 26 deg = 8:28am, 2.2x body height = 22 deg = 8:08 am, 3x = 18 deg. = 7:48, 4x = 14 deg. = 7:28). Seeing how they line up, I would be confident to say it's probably about 8:15-8:30, maybe 15-20 min. earlier or later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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=== Hospital Attack Time ===<br />
US military says A jet was overhead Khan Sheikhoun at 0337z and 0346z. Add 2 hours for local time, you get 5:37 and 5:46 am. DST might add to the, making it 6:37 and 6:46. Rebels say attack is around 6 am - video suggests low sunlight and cold air, which means early morning, as victims are displayed - but Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem "said the government's first strike happened at 11:30 a.m., about five hours after reports of the chemical attack emerged." ([http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/middleeast/syria-idlib-chemical-attack/index.html CNN])<br />
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: Local time was on daylight saving. So UTC + 3. Video of attack was a bit after sunrise which was at ~ 06:18 (UTC+3) so bombing attack was in the period 06:30 to 07:00 and admitted attack at 11:30 am. Local solar noon was at 12:37 (UTC+3) [https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/syria/damascus?month=4&year=2017 Time & Date]--[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 01:12, 1 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
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CNN also notes Moallem says that hit a chemical weapons depot fro al-Nusra front, and how "Russia said that the deaths were caused by the Syrian regime strike on the munitions depot. But several chemical weapons experts dismissed Russia's claims as "chemically impossible" and "laughable."" And, unless we reject Syria's claim as to when, the sunlight angle and cold air show the people were dead hours earlier than that (that's also presuming same day) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:12, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:So, by the Trump admin. story, all bombing was done in the span 6:37 to 6:46, right? If so, it should be visible before victims were gathered and displayed there (that'll take more than 9 minutes). But no damage or sense of recent attack is evident in the videos. I had a look at [https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/ Bellingcat's work on this:] it suggests when the hospital was hit, the larger building had its back end blown out, leaving the roof sloping down. That, we can see, is intact in the earlier views. So ... '''was it hit later than the US says?''' <br />
[[File:Khan-Skeikhoun 4-4-17 Hospital Damage.png|center]]<br />
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I tried to measure this - south building facade line runs around 75 degrees on the compass - presuming the same basic angle for the two structures behind it, sunlight in the later view is mainly hitting the south face, east walls in shallow shadow. My visual try for azimuth (compass direction to the sun): 173-177 degrees = 12:23-12:32 pm. The government says its first strike happened at 11:30 a.m. Earliest proof it was hit: about an hour later. <br />
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Five hours earlier, '''that wasn't hit yet.''' Exact time doesn't matter enough, but ... sun mainly hitting east walls, but also breaking across the south face surface, so at an azimuth of least 80 degrees. What angle, not sure. [https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/ The NOAA solar calculator] (set to location, date, GMT+2, DST on) says:<br />
* It was already 82.37 degrees at sunrise, 6:16 am. <br />
* At 6:37 it would be 85.4 degrees, <br />
* at 6:46 it'd be 86.7 deg. <br />
In each case, subtract 75 to gt app. angle of incidence relative to the wall. What do we think? Is maybe even later?<br />
Solar elevation: how long are people's shadows relative to their height? Looks like about 3x, maybe 2.5, or 4 times?. <br />
* 2.5x body height = 22 deg = 8:08 am<br />
* 3x = 18 deg. = 7:48 <br />
* 4x = 14 deg. = 7:28<br />
* app. 10x = 5.44 deg. = 6:46<br />
* app. 15x = 3.7 deg. = 6:37 <br />
Between these, it would be nice to get a best time estimate, and set a time frame during which that damage happened. And It's worth double-checking what the Trumpco claim really is. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:33, 9 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::The point was, it's clearly nowhere near 6:30 when that place is damaged, but as I explain below, that appeared relevant but then I guess it isn't. But to seal the deal, and for what it's worth:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs Hadi Abdullah? video] around noon, at the crater by the silos - a distant plume to the southeast lines up with the cave hospital, hit recently. I made a graphic to show that, but it's not needed now.<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68&index=16&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf another video] seems to be filmed in the hospital as it's hit. People rush outside after the blast, there's smoke, the building is damaged, it's noon. Another plume rises to the south from something hit recently. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:10, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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This is a bit confused, but apparently, it was ''not'' alleged (by most) to be hit around 6:30. <br />
* [http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/04/06/syria-chemical-attack-pentagon-starr-newday.cnn CNN reported] "US military and intelligence analysts have now confirmed it was Syrian regime warplanes that struck a hospital in Idlib province with chemical weapons. The US picked up the radar intelligence that regime warplanes were in the air and got the infrared signature of bombs detonating at the hospital according to a US official with direct knowledge of the information." That suggests it was in the cited 6:37-6:46 window when people were said to be gassed. <br />
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* And [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/at-least-72-dead-in-suspected-chemical-attack-in-syria.html Fox News reports] "A hospital in Syria's northern Idlib province was hit soon after the area was bombarded with a suspected chemical agent, an AFP correspondent reported."<br />
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* but [abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-syrian-field-hospital-hit-chemical-attack-46564128 ABC reports] at 2:35 p.m.: "Syrian opposition activists say an airstrike has hit a small field hospital in a town in northern Syria where a suspected chemical weapons attack took place earlier in the day. The head of the opposition's civil defense force in Khan Sheikhoun, in Idlib province, says the hospital was struck hours after the alleged gas attack that killed dozens of people.''<br />
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* and [http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/world/syria-military-strikes-donald-trump-russia/index.html CNN reports] "The US military official said the Pentagon was examining specifically whether a Russian warplane had bombed a hospital in Khan Sheikhoun five hours after the initial chemical attack, with the aim of destroying evidence. A US defense official says intelligence shows a Russian drone flew over the hospital in Idlib that was treating victims of the chemical attack, prior to the site being later bombed by an unknown aircraft." <br />
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Syria claims an attack on a militant base in the area around 11:30. So I guess the firstreport was confused and meant they think it was Syrian jets that hit the hospital ''after'' the chemical attack, and it wasn't the Russians as they were considering. It's unclear if they still think they know the motive and it was to cover up evidence. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:59, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68 This Video] by Maaz Al-Shaami shows a bomb strike on the underground hospital at around noon judging by the sun angle. So the conclusion is there were two air raids. One at 06:30 to 07:00 local time involving gas and a second at 11:30 to 12:30 using conventional bombs on the underground hospital at least. Incidentally, the second raid had beige bomb clouds so very likely SyAAF aircraft did the bombing, not Russian. --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 05:36, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:: At 00:12 in the Maaz al-Shaami video it looks very much like Had al-Abdullah there as well. How does this tie into Hadi being in-town as referenced elsewhere on this page? --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 11:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::[http://sn4hr.org/blog/2017/04/04/suspected-russian-forces-shelled-scd-center-khan-sheikhoun-city-idlib-governorate-april-4/ SNHR:] "suspected Russian warplanes fired missiles on Civil Defense Center in Khan Sheikhoun city in Idlib governorate southern suburbs, destroying its building, damaging its equipment and an ambulance and rendering it inoperable on April 4, 2017." (photo) Same thing [https://twitter.com/snhr/status/849285941277716480 in a tweet,] and a bit earlier, "#RussianForces shelled al Rahma Hospital in #KhanSheikhoun city in #Idlib on April 4" (same place presumably, interior photo) That's from 4:12 pm local time, a long delay even after a noon strike. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:31, 11 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== By clock times ==<br />
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This [https://twitter.com/Rajarajan941 twitter account] contains links to embedded versions of Shajul Islam's hospital video showing digital clocks on the wall, and makes the point that some of the purported emergency treatment is as late as 2.30 pm [[User:Pmr9|Pmr9]] ([[User talk:Pmr9|talk]]) 15:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Water triage ==<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun hosing EMC.jpg|thumb|The shadow drawn on the back wall of the [http://pictures.reuters.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&VBID=2C0BXZX35BHA4&POPUPPN=1&POPUPIID=2C0BF1SUNA1RL#/SearchResult&VBID=2C0BXZX35BHA4&POPUPPN=1&POPUPIID=2C0BF1SUZHENT emergency entrance] of the compound shows the time.]]<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun hosing Halab Today TV.jpg|thumb|The Halab Today TV [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeX-mKQjP0w&index=5&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf video] shows the same scene some half an hour later. Are victims being loaded on the truck or offloaded? Did the truck manage to pick up a fresh load of victims and then park in exactly the same spot in the yard already full of victims?]]<br />
[[File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters.jpg|thumb|Three children are seen dumped to the ground. Two hour later they are seen [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters on truck.jpg|on a pickup truck]] in downtown Khan Sheikhoun.]]<br />
:''Summary: The water triage scene looks staged, none of the "victims" received treatment at the White Helmets hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:26, 13 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
I have spent the night looking at my [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf playlist of videos] from the White Helmets [[#Whora Hora|cave complex]]. I could not find any obvious continuity errors. On the other hand, I found no proof that any chemical weapons victims were ever treated at the White Helmets hospital.<br />
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Ten of the videos form a timeline from about 9 am to late afternoon, that can with high confidence be dated to April 4th. <br />
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The White Helmets are being very secretive about the early morning events at the cave complex. The videos of the hosing scene appeared only in the afternoon. Screenshots of the videos appeared online earlier. It is uncertain if this scene happened on April 4th at all. The clips that are available are very [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85QOmIYfLw&t=19m12s heavily] edited, 100% [[massacre porn]] with little if anything that could help in dating them. They were given to rebel news agencies and mixed with April 4 footage and interviews before publication. The strongest call for [[World War 3]] is in the ''SMART media'' [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&index=3&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf video] that was viewed on Facebook 20 million times.<br />
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The hosing scene is typical White Helmets. Hysterical action and running around, without any purpose. The victims are likely brought in on white two flatbed pickup trucks. They are dumped on the ground and hosed with water from a fire engine parked inside the cave entrance. Later [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&index=3&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf we see] that the fire engine has been moved to near the entrance to the enclosed courtyard. At [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7byi5ZhbQ&index=3&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf some point] children are packed into ambulances to be taken away, but it is never clear if the victims are coming in or going out. <br />
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Two sisters and their likely little brother [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters.jpg|are seen]] dumped to the ground. Two hour later they are seen [[:File:Khan Sheikhoun dead sisters on truck.jpg|on a pickup truck]] in downtown Khan Sheikhoun, in the first video claiming to show signs of a chemical attack.<br />
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Later in the day (if this truly is the same day) there is something like an open house at the compound. Everything is very relaxed, except for the excitement caused by the midday bombing. No CW related medical work seems to be happening. Five bodies are shown, there may be ten total at the site. One girl is carried around in different levels of undress.<br />
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The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnYJyM3918&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=7 first video] in this series is by ''Orient News''. Shadows show that it is about one hour later in the day than in the hosing scene. One child with blood on his feet is seen in the treatment room. One body lies covered in sheets on the rightmost table. One small child is carried outside wrapped in a red blanket. There is no sign outside of the hosing scene ever happening.<br />
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Some [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98gL17wz3o8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=10 two hours later] we see that the treatment room has been totally cleaned up. There are clean sheets on the beds, fresh IV solution bags hang from the stands, waiting for new patients. AFP [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLyUmPMaLU&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=1 interviews a medic,] who said the hopital had received 200 patients ''today'', 50 of whom were dead. The dead girl lies on the table. In the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fWxtN6DQ8&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=11 next video,] by [[Aleppo Media Center]] she is carried outside. We see the body of one female outside and the bodies of two adult men in the motorcycle garage. Earlier photos of the garage show four other bodies that have evidently been taken away. All fighting age men, most with beards.<br />
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Something happens around 12:30 am. A bomb explodes. The first we hear about it is in this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF3KrDD3buE&index=12&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf fake video] by a Yaman Khateeb, who [http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gas-attack-kills-18-syrias-idlib-observatory-1708105490 reports] on it on his Facebook page [https://www.facebook.com/100006062851226/videos/1879498532262224/ at 12:39.] It is unlikely that a bomb outside would affect the treatment room. Instead someone seems to light a flare in the room.<br />
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Later videos show part of the building outside the cave destroyed. The same bodies are there, so it must be the same day. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLmSJ_X6tk&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=14 Hadi Alabdallah] and his friend [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbePT_ZwO68&index=16&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf Maaz al-Shami] seem extremely exited about the blasts outside. I am not sure any Syrian bomb ever fell on the compound. The building looks like it was blown up from the inside. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:10, 10 April 2017 (UTC) <small>Updated 14:40, 12 April 2017 (UTC)</small><br />
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=== Differences between Day X and April 4th ===<br />
Did the water triage scene really happen on April 4th?<br />
* There is a bench at the eastern end of the courtyard The Reuters [[:File:Lataminah White Helmets base.jpg|photo]] by Ammar Abdullah show some red sacks on it. These are missing from the Day X footage.<br />
* The same photo shows a blanket and some clothes on the platform outside the doorway. None of these are seen on the Day X footage.<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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:Petri, I'm getting oriented, at least spatially, with this scene; still confused temporally. That bench is actually a concrete slab. The best view of it is in the 2:02 SMART vid where all the spraying is going on. At about 00:30 there are three guys in their underwear lying prostrate on the slab/bench. Next to the R foot of the guy with the nice clean white undies there is an orange EMT body board. The same body board lying on the same slab is seen in the same vid at 00:27. The three guys are not there. This 00:27 view is very helpful<br />
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:At the right end of the slab/bench is a doorway. At the left end of the slab/bench is a garage. A large white truck is backed into the garage. <br />
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:Now go to the Abdullah image of the WH guy with the Canon-strap carrying the kid wrapped in blue plastic. There are several short vid clips showing this scene. It is the same spot as above. In this scene the grey/red ambulance #13 is parked in the garage. The same motorcycle is parked next to the garage in both scenes. The WH guy is walking toward the slab/bench. As you note, there are blankets or bags on the slab/bench. There is no body board and no guys in wet skivvies. In the photo there are virtually no shadows. In the 2:02 SMART vid, the ground is in shadow right up to and including the slab/bench. The ground is covered with water in the vid and no tire tracks, but not much water in the photo, only mucky with lots of tire tracks. I haven't figured out the sequence. <br />
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:Of further interest in the 2:02 vid: at 01:30 a guy is spraying down someone on the ground. In the background is a dark car with a guy in white underwear hoping around like he is getting dressed or undressed. He throws something into the car. I think these actors are probably union, so he may be at the end of his shift. -- [[User:Pierpont|Pierpont]] ([[User talk:Pierpont|talk]]) 04:35, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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::I have ordered my [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf playlist] in what I believe to be the temporal order. In the end I have included videos that have short clips of additional footage. I believe the Ammar Abdullah [http://pictures.reuters.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2C0BF1SUN4N4N photos] and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MES_h5mGc8A&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGaL8lVAHpsNd3K-SEmizuf&index=18 video] are taken on April 4th, before the bombing, as they show some of the same bodies as seen on April 4th, both before and after the bombing.<br />
::The bench I am speaking about is not the slab, but all the way back against the eastern wall of the courtyard. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:17, 12 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== More Solar Readings ==<br />
* File:Qasioun News Agency Khan Shaikhoun.jpg - elev: 36-38 = time range app. 9:20-9:30 am. Az would be 111.5-113.5 at those times (rounded). That would make this a roughly E-W street, tending a bit NW-SE. Best fit for that is just south of the Tel. A spot I'll guess is [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.441696&lon=36.644323&z=18&m=b&search=Hama here on Wikimapia.] Maybe that's not it, but I think we have the street, and it's not that long.<br />
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* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKu-Zw3cJoI&index=31&list=PL5WYCTqm6QUE9GXGdGUSqW23BeWuSV46f video:] patients rushed to a hospital, it says, in Maarat al-Numan. The Assi press video just says bodies were being shown no later than 9:30-ish local time. The noon video is in Maarat al-Numan close to noon, on n-s street w/divider ... elevation by ambulance shadows app. 60-65 deg., so it must be noon - 12:36 pm, 60.4 degrees elevation. So nearly six hours later, they're still hauling dead-ish people around to hospitals. Shadow azimuth across the street suggests it doesn't run due north, but rather slants to the northeast, for geolocation (note divider in opening moments)). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJw84eXALs video:] Hadi Abdulla, no protection aside from a paper mask, at the crater April 4. The road runs 18 deg from north, and the parallel wall is just barely in shadow, so azimuth is about (180 + 15-17 =) 195-197 = 13:06 - 13:12, a half hour past solar noon at 12:36, almost 7 hours after the alleged sarin plume from here that affected some 500 people and killed over 100. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg&diff=36964File:Khan Sheikhun chemical SMART bird collection.jpg2017-04-30T18:35:42Z<p>Q: Some additional info and notes</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of SMART's bird collection photo/video.<br />
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Sources:<br />
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SMART [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/images/media/watermarked/2017/04/05/PG0-ID-170405-901/PS0-ID-170405-906/#33736 photo(+album)]<br />
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SMART [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video], relevant part starts at 00:53<br />
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Masr Alarabia [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video], the screenshot was taken at 01:56<br />
<br />
New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html video]<br />
, direct [https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 link(HD)], the screenshot was taken at 03:30<br />
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Notes:<br />
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Location: ([http://wikimapia.org/#lang=hu&lat=35.448164&lon=36.646201&z=19&m=b wikimapia])<br />
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Exif data of SMART's photo says it was taken on 2017:04:05, at 12:07:53.<br />
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[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_chemical_SMART_bird_collection.jpg&diff=36963File:Khan Sheikhun chemical SMART bird collection.jpg2017-04-30T18:25:08Z<p>Q: Geolocation of SMART's bird collection photo/video.
Sources:
SMART [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/images/media/watermarked/2017/04/05/PG0-ID-170405-901/PS0-ID-170405-906/#33736 photo(+album)]
SMART [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeos...</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of SMART's bird collection photo/video.<br />
<br />
Sources:<br />
<br />
SMART [http://smartnews-agency.com/ar/album/225901/images/media/watermarked/2017/04/05/PG0-ID-170405-901/PS0-ID-170405-906/#33736 photo(+album)]<br />
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SMART [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeosawyrgyo video], relevant part starts at 00:53<br />
<br />
Masr Alarabia [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjEKIRr1JU drone video], the screenshot was taken at 01:56<br />
<br />
New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000005063944/syria-chemical-attack-russia.html video]<br />
, direct [https://vp.nyt.com/video/2017/04/25/72247_1_26-syriachemws_wg_720p.mp4 link(HD)]<br />
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[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_orient_surivior_home1.jpg&diff=36952File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg2017-04-30T12:40:22Z<p>Q: Q uploaded a new version of File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg</p>
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<div>Geolocation of the home of a "chemical attack survivor".<br />
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The video is in arabic, translation will be needed.<br />
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep6BTAN_M4k - starts at 01:24<br />
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Additional footage used from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA53FYKlUfI <br />
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== Discussion ==<br />
The suggested building is about the one already highlighted as a place where a family died in the (very sparse) basement apartment they just lived in. I'll review to see what he says, but just from the spot, I'd guess he's another alleged adult-male, clean-shaven, random, Assad-blaming local survivor of that family of mostly women and children as usual, who like usual has good oppo. media contacts. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:12, 30 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
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: It may be misleading, but the guy shows the house next to the white camera marker, I'll update the image to make it more clear --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_orient_surivior_home1.jpg&diff=36946File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg2017-04-30T12:20:52Z<p>Q: /* Discussion */ - It's a different house</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of the home of a "chemical attack survivor".<br />
<br />
The video is in arabic, translation will be needed.<br />
<br />
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep6BTAN_M4k - starts at 01:24<br />
<br />
Additional footage used from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA53FYKlUfI <br />
<br />
== Discussion ==<br />
The suggested building is about the one already highlighted as a place where a family died in the (very sparse) basement apartment they just lived in. I'll review to see what he says, but just from the spot, I'd guess he's another alleged adult-male, clean-shaven, random, Assad-blaming local survivor of that family of mostly women and children as usual, who like usual has good oppo. media contacts. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:12, 30 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: It may be misleading, but the guy shows the house next to the white camera marker, I'll update the image to make it more clear --[[User:Q|Q]] ([[User talk:Q|talk]]) 12:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Qhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Khan_Sheikhun_CW_orient_surivior_home1.jpg&diff=36943File:Khan Sheikhun CW orient surivior home1.jpg2017-04-30T11:58:31Z<p>Q: Geolocation of the home of a "chemical attack survivor".
The video is in arabic, translation will be needed.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep6BTAN_M4k - starts at 01:24
Additional footage used from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA53FYKlU...</p>
<hr />
<div>Geolocation of the home of a "chemical attack survivor".<br />
<br />
The video is in arabic, translation will be needed.<br />
<br />
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep6BTAN_M4k - starts at 01:24<br />
<br />
Additional footage used from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA53FYKlUfI <br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Khan Sheikhoun attack]]<br />
[[Category:Maps]]</div>Q