https://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Jokkmokks+goran&feedformat=atomA Closer Look On Syria - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T02:03:09ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.13https://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Translation_Requests&diff=13543Translation Requests2014-06-11T21:21:30Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: </p>
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<div>It occurred to me we could use more translation work done, and that this might be a good way to do it - have a public "drop box" so any Arabic-speaking readers (primarily) can see what would help, and perhaps just sign up and do it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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:Should we sign requests and answers, so we can see who we're responding to? I think so. All mine below are stamped now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Khan al-Assal Massacre]] July 22, 2013: An al-Nusra rebel denial video. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlIvLnKeKEc FSA we did not massacre anyone in Khan Al assal] Someone else must have massacred anyone who was massacred, apparently, because they say ... what? (mid-length video, 2:16) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Talk:Maan Massacre#February 9, 2014|2014 Ma'an Massacre (Feb. 9):]] There is an Arabic victims list, 20 names, posted [https://www.facebook.com/alaa.ebrahim.sy/posts/785678724795425 here on Facebook] by Alaa Ibrahim. If we had these names in text form we could get transliterations - or maybe there is already one or both of those around? <br />
::I can answer this! There's [https://www.facebook.com/jablah.news.network/posts/616128345107198?stream_ref=10 this text posting] from Jablah News Network. Will work on and add. This, to make an empty page lively, I will leave for now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Deir Baalba Massacre]] April, 2012: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC0_c7wCacc Deir Ba'alba | Homs | Mass Numbers of Martyrs Murdered by Assad Forces] (wrapped bodies, not gory) - the names written on the victims' shrouds might be of interest. Also, anything in the narration that's of interest (names, dates, specific allegations, etc.) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
* Same case: "alah yahmik ya soria ya rab" - God something Syria something. This is a Wikimpaia label just north of Deir Baalba. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Abel massacre]] March 25-29, 2013 - [[File:Homs Abel Notice.png|200px]] --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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Martyrs of the tribe of al-Akidat al-Bu Assaf<br />
They died Monday 25/03 2013 in Mazari’ Abil “among those unknown”.<br />
- Qatash al-Mahmoud (Abu Mahmoud) and his wife Nusra al-Mahmoud (Um Mahmoud)<br />
- Hawash al-Mahmoud (Abu Ali) and his wife Ghaziya al-Ifir<br />
- Children of Qatash: Mahmoud al-Mahmoud (Abu Ahmad) and his wife Khadra al-Mahmoud<br />
- Fuad al-Mahmoud (Abu Hamza) – Hamida al-Mahmoud<br />
- Huda bint Mahmoud and her young children: Ahmad al-Mahmoud – Haydar al-Mahmoud - Sajida al-Mahmoud (who were the children of Ali Ahmad al-Mahmoud) <br />
--[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:15, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Talk:Homs Massacres#Maramarita Massacre|Maramarita Massacre]], August 17, 2013. I tried to read [http://www.all4syria.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/28.jpg this apparently related poster]. I couldn't even match the first name, Amin Nakkour أمين نقرور. And there's only five to pick from. I'm trying to say who was military and thus who not, where from, etc. I also notice the date 8/18 appearing. That would apparently be new. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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The martyrs are claimed by “The National Defence Forces in Homs and its countryside”. They “sacrified their pure blood on the path of the soil of the homeland and the glory of al-Assad’s Syria”. They are all apparently Christians by their names and as the memorial services are to be held in churches. The dates mentioned are for these services.<br />
They all carry the title ”al-shahid malazim sharaf” meaning “the martyr” + some kind of military grade “Honorary lieutenant”? <br />
No info on time, place or circumstances of death.<br />
- Fadi Matanius Iliyas<br />
- Samir Abid Watfa<br />
- Jacko Isa Sa’ada<br />
- Sumer Isa Yaziji<br />
- Basil Malik Salih<br />
--[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:15, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Houla, May 25: Who Was in Control?]] - a shot-up sign, May 26, 2012. Looks hard to read/guess without context. Every word and maybe even every letter helps. <br />
[[File:Taldou shot-up sign.png]] --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:26, 15 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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To me it looks like a trafic sign plastered over with a political message. I can only make out the first and last word on the second line: "al-shahid [the martyr]...[S?]ouriya (Syria)". --[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:15, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* For [[Houla, May 25: Who Was in Control?]] - this is some writing seen at the military intelligence headquarters, in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFR-mQZMhsg this Jihadi video]. What can an Arabic reader make out and/or guess of what it says? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:34, 6 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
[[File:Houla Graffiti.png]] <br />
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:I really can't make out anything except the middle row/"column" which says "Hafiz and Bashar" (perhaps followed by an insult) and extreme left "al-Amir" (prince/rebel commander title) [[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 21:21, 11 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
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==Special Research Requests==<br />
I have none at the moment but one problem I've had is in doing Arabic-language searches. To even know which articles are good, I have to copy-and-paste the right part of the text into Google Translate. It's slow going over here. An Arabic reader could do a more effective search a lot quicker and get the best source material delivered, and maybe even pre-translated. But even just selecting the best links with the most and best information is a big step forward when that's been lacking.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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* More a general question for anyone more knowledgeable about Syrian society - re: [[Talk:Homs Massacres#Jandar Resort Massacre|Jandar Resort Massacre,]] August 2012. As I explain there:<br />
:''The three Mtanious names seem to have been in the wrong order (Mtanious first), here and everywhere else. At whatever risk, the listing below changes the order. Is it more odd that three guys of the same (known, Christian) family work together, or that men of three families, who chose the same unusual first name, all wound up working together? ''<br />
Can anyone answer that? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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[[Category:Investigation]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caustic_Logic&diff=11619User talk:Caustic Logic2014-02-19T09:17:13Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Some translations */</p>
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<div>==2014==<br />
Happy New Year! I'm still a few hours shy here, but so what. We enter our third year of operations. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
(optioonal space to make the below a subset)<br />
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: Happy New Year from the future! The 4 has already kicked out the 3 at google.de! :o) Best wishes, --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
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::Oh, shit! I am drunk! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
::What a cruise! They were serving free champagne at the Skyview Bar on deck 10 until 5 am.<br />
::Anyway, Happy New Year! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::You guys in the frozen North cruisin' around anyways. I partied right here, a lot to do. Not that far past 5 am still here, not too drunk yet or too far behinf schedule. A few more minutes of work left at least... then see ya again after about 8. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
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===History Mode===<br />
This site has been running since June, 2012. That's a year and a half. We've kicked ass. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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In recent months, signs are increasing that it was the anti-government conspiracy, not the Syrian government, that was "delaying the inevitable" this whole time. The government will remain. The cancer will be routed and subdued in time. That's my guess. The urgency of possible imminent war over the Ghouta allegations yielding to inspections and peace talks instead marked a point of transition, where both the urgency of discerning the truth was heightened and then the calm of realizing the rebels are done settled in. So in the last months my thinking of what's best and most urgent to do has changed and I'm thinking in a more relaxed, long-term, historical study mode. I vote for the site to stay up and active for another 18 months at least, and hope to keep developing different aspects. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Did I mention I was a history major in college? I did manage to all but earn a BA degree before losing financial aid in a real blunder, and obviously never entered the profession in exchange for money, which I still have to work for. But anyway, here we are working the early part of an important historical record. To some extent that's always how I've thought of it, and more so now. <br />
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In that mode, I've been archiving things. The [[VDC]] [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/otherstatistics regime forces database] used to do searches by name and civilian/non-civilian status (yes, both are listed, because "regime forces" means something else). But since I started using it, a while back, they disabled those. That spurred me to start a big searchable file of all listed entries. In time this might be worth sharing here, probably in chuncks. So far I've got the first several weeks saved, mostly just the short entries listed on the front page. Opening and saving each entry's page was too time-consuming. More useful has been gathering LCC daily reports, into text documents covering two months each. I mostly save the text only, video links where I feel like pausing for that one. A lot of videos aren't there anymore. These go back to August 12, August 13 and some sporadic days are missing, but otherwise I have maybe half of 2011 and some of 2012 covered so far. These I've been citing lately, mostly for [[Homs Massacres]]. These can be shared in chunks, with some (Aug-Oct 2011, Nov-Dec 2011) perhaps ready soon. A final version might have all video links, but that's a lot of time on my end, so I can post working copies prior to that. Format, etc. to be decided in time. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Malnourished victim ==<br />
(Suggested material I later worked into [[Starving Children in Moadamiyeh|this page]]) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<s>This was discussed somewhere:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2BcjatF-ao Child martyr Ibrahim Khalil result undernourishment Medmah the Sham 31 8 2013] – Mrkzmoadamia alsham<br />
You can remove the comment if you move the link somewhere. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I'll keep it here for right now, but it desrves a page soon. I'm on this one, in extremely general but effective terms, detail analysis hardly needed. At [http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/17107 an al-Akhbar article] on the UN report (a great one - I see we have it included, good) I saw a comment by fellow wiki member Clay Claiborne, who shifted the subject to allegations of regime shelling that was starving more kids in Moadamiya, this time a baby girl "in danger of death." <br />
:''Clay, these alleged baby-starving shells are off-topic emotive distractions here, and besides - babies get preference even under siege. If babies are starving and everyone else isn't, (are they? I only see scattered kids) look to the people immediately around that baby. One has a rebel activist video camera. Other activists explain the whole story and get suckers like you to push for NATO air cover, over these regime CW attacks and regime blockades.''<br />
Next step will be to get visuals of any non-starving rebel fighters who are running the place at the relebvant time, put the images side by side and ask why the fighters aren't sharing food with the kids. Was there a mercy embargo? Or do they just want more dead kids to guilt trip us with, in hopes we're not thinking straight (and most aren't). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Half-way related (I think), check [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/robert-fisk-in-damascus-assads-troops-may-be-winning-this-war-in-syrias-capital--untouched-by-obamas-threats-8825005.html what Fisk writes about Moadamiyah] and the operations of that night. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Definitely to note, more to the "chemical shelling" part we still didn't cover here yet. What's up with that? As for the shelling so bad even the babies are starving, here's the guys sent to meet the UN team on the 26th - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX0N2r4WzYI Youtube]. Everyone here seems leaner than average, actually, but that's probably a coincidence, other than about two pretty beefy guys by the door, and no one chubby. Not the best example I'm sure. For reference, the one Clay points to is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NbfLFgt77cY this], difficult to watch, unnecessary (filmed on or before September 23). A little girl, I don'y know, a year or two old but bald like newborn? Poorly kept by someone, cellophane diaper, rebel doctor jabbing at her symptoms at length for our edification. She's breathing hard, looking hard, thinking hard, cooperating, tender all over but jabbed all over, not at death's door but within a few blocks of it. I sense no human compassion coming her way from the people in this room. Subjective I know, but I dare you to test that. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)</s><br />
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More sources on this:<br />
http://972mag.com/after-chemical-attack-damascus-suburbs-face-starvation/79851/ <br />
I left a comment in the Facebook pane. Curious if it come through. Also comments below, don't seem to have.<br />
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I didn't do more here tonight/this AM because I thought we were in read-only mode. I hear that's to happen soon and for most of the weekend as they get everything onto new servers and hopefully solve the overload problems (?) they've been having. Anyway, been assembling some assorted things offline. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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==Pro-War Lefties==<br />
A thing I've been meaning to write on - self-described leftists and outright Communists and such who eagerly take almost exactly New York's position on Syria as if Marx himself would do the same. This when the target is besieged by fundamentalist and imperialist nations for standing with Iran (state-run central bank) in resistance to Israel, once allied to anti-Imperialist victim of imperialism Baathist Iraq (state bank), maintaining a strong Socialist leaning and the only Arab country (?) with a Communist party both allowed and doing well, placing second to Ba'ath in the May 2012 Peoples Assembly elections. And there are those who would tell us the anti-imperialist struggle is the one waged by Syria's youths with those bearded chins and shaved upper lips, and some of Libya's and Saud's rejects and Salfists from some 40 other countries, funneled and armed by Turkey and NATO, riled up by reactionary genocidal Gulf imams, its supposed leaders in Turkey recognized by the imperialist bloc, with Israeli air force help on occasion, and the al CIA-da cancer seeping into every slice made ... It's interesting to watch these people in action. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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* Louis Proyect<br />
Louis Proyect, an "unrepentant Marxist" has [http://louisproyect.org/2013/09/16/a-guide-for-the-perplexed-on-syria/ a guide for the perplexed on Syria], a list of guides he considers leftist who have penned convincing articles for the rebellion and against the regime. He derides "the Marxist purists who genuflect to Bashar al-Assad" and muses "How the “anti-imperialist” left can rally around a government capable of such depraved action is a mystery beyond comprehension." Capable of, accused of, same difference. One of his guides wrote:<br />
:''The main actors so far have been educated youth and unemployed youth seeking access to modernity ... many of the people in the streets are what I would call lumpen proletariat ... The other component of this movement comes from the lower middle class, especially young unemployed university graduates. ... because they have to live with their parents ...''<br />
To be fair, that's from 2011, but Proyect cites it in late August 2013, and offers elsewhere [http://louisproyect.org/2013/08/27/dos-and-donts-for-progressives-discussing-syria/ some "dos and dont's" for "progressives" discussing the war and hoping to do so in his style]. Included: <br />
:''DON’T obsess over al-Qaeda, Islamist extremists, jihadists, etc. ... DON’T let genuine concerns with US imperialism, Israel, Saudi, etc make you look at pictures and videos of dead children and think conspiracy. Bashar is an authoritarian dictator...'' <br />
... and probably did kill those kids and just leave them for rebels to find, again. After all, Proyect reminds us for context:<br />
:''[Asad's] record of resistance is a bit sketchy. Just remember he collaborated with the US on things such as CIA renditions. Just because the CIA is training a few fighters in Jordan or some anonymous rebel leader is quoted in some Israeli paper doesn’t mean this isn’t a legitimate Syrian uprising against a brutal regime.''<br />
As for how he gets so smart about what's going on, I don't know. I can say he doesn't seem open to new information. [http://louisproyect.org/2013/05/15/the-worst-atrocity-of-the-war-in-syria/ Highlighting "the worst atrocity of the war" in al-Bayda and Baniyas], he blamed the regime based on what activists said. When I pointed out in a comment that the victims were government-loyalist Imam who had called for all rebels to be killed a month before he and so many innocents were killed instead. He simply deleted that and pretended it didn't exist. Seems he learned some things from Stalin, anyway. I saved the comment, will dig it up and post here later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:Side-note on the CIA rendition assistance: mainly seems to be Maher Ahrar ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar WP]). A Syrian-Canadian citizen, arrested on suspect intel as a possible AQ terrorist, sent by the United States to Syria instead of Canada, where he was held for a year, where the wikiperdia article says Arar "claims he was beaten for several hours and forced to falsely confess that he had attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. “I was willing to do anything to stop the torture,” he says." With these forced confessions in hand, the article says, "the Syrian government later stated that Arar was "completely innocent." and "Syrian official Imad Moustapha stated that "We tried to find anything. We couldn’t". Syrian authorities also denied that they tortured Arar." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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* Clay Claiborne<br />
I've been wanting to put together such a list for a while, but by now, one of the intended targets is a fellow member of this wiki. Any thoughts on the best way to take advantage of that dynamic for the greatest learning potential and the widest public good? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Threatening new editors ==<br />
<br />
Hi Caustic Logic,<br />
<br />
My name is Lynton from the ShoutWiki Customer Support Team. I dropped by your wiki in a random check for vandalism and spam, and came across [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PavewayIV&oldid=9343 this message] that you left on a new editor's talk page.<br />
<br />
I am quite concerned that this is your approach to wiki administration. Blocking should never be threatened to new editors who are yet to make any contributions to your wiki. You should be encouraging new editors and offering to show them 'around' and how to get started contributing. What you have done here (and I can only assume previously) is simply discourage or even scare off participation from new contributors.<br />
<br />
You have chosen to start an open wiki here on ShoutWiki, and with that comes certain requirements for you to act in an open and collaborative manner. If you aren't able to uphold those ideals, then we may have to review the administration of this wiki, which is certainly not something that I would like to do.<br />
<br />
I am keen to hear your thoughts on this matter. Please respond on my talk page so that I am notified.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
— [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 04:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:Our [[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy is Explained]] here on the Community portal page. Please share your thoughts there or on the [[A Closer Look On Syria talk:Community portal|talk page]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Hi, Lynton! I wanted to say hi here and type out the response first. As Petri says, it's a policy we have, explained there ([[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|here]]). For my part, I'm the softie who was slow to block people at first. In fact I'm still vague what the problem with zombie accounts is, and at least as open as anyone to a change. And, in fact, as soon as I helped set that policy (I coined sign up and speak up!), it became less useful as real contributing members started showing up (but often still not speaking up right away) - I blocked one on accident (Claycali, see above) but we un-blocked him and I coaxed him back. So, we're enforcing loosely, giving benefits of the doubt and time. I certainly am keen not to chase away contributors of any sort, but we have the policy for some good reason. And I will now double-check that PavewayIV feels welcome as I hope, but with the warning in place until the three of us core folks agree to change it. Fair enough I hope? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:Thanks guys, I've read your responses and taken a look at your policy. I still have my concerns. If you are facing persistent vandalism or spam, then that is something we can assist you with, as we have a range of tools not available to wiki administrators to combat this. I've just blocked a number of IP addresses that have been problematic in the past. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have these issues again. That being said, I've seen your block log, and there are three entries for this month. The administrative effort to clean up after three accounts is hardly worth the massive disservice you are doing to this wiki by following this particular policy. I urge you to reconsider, and in the meantime I will consult with my colleagues regarding this particular policy. — [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 03:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Hi Lynton. I created this wiki, although i'm not the one who proposed the policy in question. That was [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] who has [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Petri_Krohn a chest full of badges over at wikipedia] and knows what he is doing. We made sure that nobody goes unaware of the policy not only by the description you were already made aware of, but also by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation-msg|a bold red message after account creation]]. The reason why there are only three blocks you have seen in October might have something to do with the fact that October wasn't a usual month at ShoutWiki. When signing up I've seen no "certain requirements" that would prevent us from cleaning the user list from zombie accounts, many of them easily to google as spammers, while giving clear guidelines to new users how they avoid to be mistaken as such. So, Caustic Logic did not really threaten the user, but gave him an additional reminder of our policy, I suppose because his name doesn't follow the usual pattern. Maybe we should keep in mind to do this in a friendlier manner, giving the benefit of the doubt not only by the action of an additional message, but also by the tone of it. Would that be better? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 10:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:::We should have a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Welcome|Welcome]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template.<br />
:::As to the block log: No one has been blocked because of our "policy". We have one banned user, the "SEO Spammer". All the other accounts have been blocked as verified or suspected sockpuppets of this one user (or simply for spamming). How we identify sock puppets is an other story. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
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==Stuff==<br />
===Absence Note===<br />
Just as Petri re-appeared, I disappeared. It's only been a day or so, but in case anyone's worried, I'm popping on at Fed Ex Kinkos for a minute to say didn't die. My ancient modem finally did. The new one should be here in a day or two and I'll be back then. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:<brag>Did I mention that I have fiber-to-the-home.</brag><br />
:Screw modems! In a previous life I connected about 1000 of my neighborhood homes to the Internet with fast Ethernet connections – for free. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::An interesting brag, but otherwise, whatever, I'm set up again. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===formatting chat===<br />
As i've seen you added an supposedly internal Noura link, and i've fixed one or two already and saw also Petri fix one, here's a little smart-assery (so that you have your own talk page as well ;o)):<br />
<br />
An external link, like you used now, has the problem that should the wiki move at one point, those links are "hardwired" and have to get fixed manually (and they have that little symbol indicating them to be external). This is what you used:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Houla:Alleged_witnesses_for_a_government/Shabiha_attack#Noura.2C_15 Noura]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Single brackets, link, space, description. An internal link goes like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[Houla:Alleged witnesses for a government/Shabiha attack#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Double brackets, name of the article, pipe, description. Relative, should URL change it will still work. And if the internal link goes to a different section of the same article, you can shorten it like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] 00:29, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Oh, I thought that only worked when it had the exact name of a whole page. Will practice and keep in mind. Thanks for the smart-assness, hope to be just as smart-assed someday. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 09:01, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
===What's wrong with front pages?===<br />
(moved from [[Talk:Talkalakh massacre]])<br />
I just went to create a front page before someone created a re-direct, but was too slow. I see it does appear under "All Pages", so that's cool. But I still find a slight problem in that talk pages don't show up under "new pages." Anyone looking there will think we have no such page and move on. I prefer the MO I usually use of having a stub page with a hard re-direct to talk. Most subject warrant and get some kind of front page past the stub, eventually. A request, or alternately, invitation to debate reasons. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The redirect is there partly because it is included in [[:Category:Massacres]]. Without it it would be really difficult to find this talk page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I think I see that. You'd have to know to look under T, for Talk, not T for Talkalakh... Hmm, odd example to use this on. Same problem though for Houla but worse -skip to "the." The idea of a prominent re-direct is to re-direct people and minimize that problem. It can be missed by a sloppy reader, so the automation would help with that. And some people just won't look at two pages. Hmmm... Ah, I'm tired. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::What is the problem? The category is in the redirect, not on the Talk page. '''''T'''alkalakh massacre'' is listed under '''T''' in [[:Category:Massacres]]. The italics in the category view mean it is a redirect, not a real article page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Oh I don't know. I'm still tired. Never mind. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: That's timely, I was meaning to say something about an I think unfortunate development. I first liked the idea of having a talk page before an article page, but not to the extent it is happening now. Most of what is on our long talk pages belongs on the front page. Wiki pages are not meant to be static anyway, they develop. And it's very difficult for people to extract information out of our mixed Information-Chatter-Information style pages as they are now. For example the amazing work you lately did with the Homs stuff, most of that is more than ready to be on the front page, minus a few subjective remarks and all the signatures scattered around. I encourage us to do more work directly on front pages again and use the talk pages only for what they are meant to be: Talk - about certain unclear details, scopes of articles, specific research that needs input of others, etc. Otherwise it's really a waste of energy and counter-productive, as likely nobody will go through the mess and extract the info after the topic is cold and everybody wandered off to the next. In this spirit I started the Adra front page. :o) --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::You're totally right, mainly. I think between front page material and the usual talk page stuff is a zone of semi-fluid detailed stuff ... that should just be squished into the talk page category. But some can be cut out and moved, and some stubs graduated. It's been an issue for a while, because it'll probably take a while to move much. Anyone can feel free to move my stuff (because so much of the chatter is mine), Homs Massacres is ready to move today or so, though in that case I want to clean it up along the way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: First of all, so much (like everything) of the '''content''' is yours and there is no reason to not put it directly to the front page while you are researching it. We others can correct little stuff like typos etc without being shy about it, and factual/etc disagreements can be raised on the talk page if they appear. This also goes to our "new" members: Don't be shy to add to front pages. There should be, for example, a paragraph somewhere about those Higgins/Hersh/etc controversies, where new stuff can be added by a factual statement ("in return Higgins had no problems to publish an article at the established Foreign Policy website" with a [[A_Closer_Look_On_Syria:Community_portal#Basic_Formatting|reference]] to that article). So that in time there will be something that is informative and grows with the development without further need to edit. Like for example the section of the Ghouta thing I took care of on the front page, the Sellström investigation. Just had to [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013&diff=9969&oldid=9708 fix the tense and add a link], and voila. You noticed that the final report was released? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:34, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Cool, I scanned the report. Almost said something, but it wasn't enough to bother. Something like I look forward to analysis of this, it seems quite interesting. As for talk page use, one thing I started to say above - there's issues of contention, opinion and discussion, collaborative research, and maybe "workspace" has been a crutch, but there's also another use I should fish for thoughts on. Some stuff is worked-out, but I feel like it's just too detailed for the casual reader and should just get a summary up-front and more space in the rear. But just typing this out I think the answer is oh well, that's why there are section breaks, etc. It should go up front. Right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: To drive this home: I am the "super admin" here, just because I technically started this wiki (I could theoretically change its name or the background color). Me, Caustic Logic and Petri Krohn are the three admins here and that core team will stay like that for the foreseeable future. We are not in any form moderating on-topic content, as long as it is based on information and not just baseless slander. Everybody is entitled to start new pages about topics they are interested in, and add to existing topics in a reasonable manner. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: Seconded. Instincts against stepping on peoples' toes are good enough, but that can go too far. Anything helpful with new pages, edits and re-arrangement on old ones, etc. is probably cool. It's my toe you'd step on half the time, and I'll probably catch and politely contest any changes I disagree with, but usually I'll just agree, I presume. And not to push off work except kind of. I'll be working on this stuff too. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Okay, I've been thinking more as I work, still using talk pages as just workspace. One thing is if the research was a discussion it'd stay since it's talk. But I can't help it if no one else stepped in and the talk is monologue. I say this isn't wikipedia and we needn't follow their formula. Talk page can mean back page for chatter, all too-detailed info for a readable front page, and all that. But recognizing it's hard to sift through, anything important should go on (or at least be linked right from) front pages, which we need more of and more filled in. Two pages of space for each subject has been handy. CE, anyone else, what do you think of that perspective?--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I'm not really sure if I get what you mean. My main point was that one (incl. you) shouldn't be shy to put stuff directly on the front page instead of collecting it with many signatures on the talk page. Mainly for future articles. So that the sorting-out you did rather successfully now re:Homs doesn't have to be done in the first place. By all means use the talk page for everything that helps your way of working. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 18:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: I was just thinking about it too much, and a bit wrong. I feel a front page deserves good standards I'm not always feeling up to. But you're right that it's easier to just do the work and revisions right there where people are most likely by habit to look. Saves some time with copying that, so far, often just never happens. Will keep working on that. And everyone else (including you) feel free to adopt and populate any front page you notice sorely lacking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rooftop Massacre ==<br />
<br />
I'm not sure where to introduce this as a topic. As far as I can tell it's not on any page here.<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=36d_1366100603 Rooftop Bodies Aleppo]<br />
<br />
And associated video<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=28b_1388119014 "Grenade Civilians"]<br />
<br />
It appears to be April 2013 in Aleppo and a score or so of soldiers blown up, shot, and beheaded, and possibly civilians as well --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks. It doesn't sound familiar, and a lot does fall through the cracks. I'm thinking back to April, Aleppo, and rooftops and I've zeroed in one one, through which alleged chemical grenades were dropped from a helicopter, or tossed by hand down an open stairwell... Strictly context. This is very interesting video. I'm not even certain these are the same scenes. I would imagine a scene like that - men trying to surrender on the roof of a smoking building, just blown away in cold blood - HRW or someone should have mentioned that. I'll check into it. And compare the videos to see if this is one or two rooftop massacres or one. Interesting, but maybe not its-own-page interesting. The best place to take a copy might be Siege of Aleppo, which I think still needs a front page. So [[Talk:Siege of Aleppo]]. Oh, and [[Other research]] is a good spot for recommendations. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::I started [[Other research#Aleppo Rooftop Massacre|a spot]] at other research. Whichever of us gets inspired first can copy over the links. I'll save analysis or additions 'til then or later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Does this have some relationship with the bodies thrown off the roof of the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhVQiqoTtdw&bpctr=1388242598 Post Office in Al-Bab?] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Seems to be a different and more recent scene, and only one guy is apparently blasted off the roof (if the same scene, there must have been more blasts or something). About corresponds to the swarming of Sheikh Maqsoud district in Aleppo. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Some translations ==<br />
<br />
1.<br />
The martyrs are claimed by “The National Defence Forces in Homs and its countryside”. They “sacrified their pure blood on the path of the soil of the homeland and the glory of al-Assad’s Syria”. They are all apparently Christians by their names and as the memorial services are to be held in churches. The dates mentioned are for these services.<br />
They all carry the title ”al-shahid malazim sharaf” meaning “the martyr” + some kind of military grade “Honorary lieutenant”? <br />
No info on time, place or circumstances of death.<br />
- Fadi Matanius Iliyas<br />
- Samir Abid Watfa<br />
- Jacko Isa Sa’ada<br />
- Sumer Isa Yaziji<br />
- Basil Malik Salih<br />
http://www.all4syria.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/28.jpg<br />
<br />
2.<br />
Martyrs of the tribe of al-Akidat al-Bu Assaf<br />
They died Monday 25/03 2013 in Mazari’ Abil “among those unknown”.<br />
- Qatash al-Mahmoud (Abu Mahmoud) and his wife Nusra al-Mahmoud (Um Mahmoud)<br />
- Hawash al-Mahmoud (Abu Ali) and his wife Ghaziya al-Ifir<br />
- Children of Qatash: Mahmoud al-Mahmoud (Abu Ahmad) and his wife Khadra al-Mahmoud<br />
- Fuad al-Mahmoud (Abu Hamza) – Hamida al-Mahmoud<br />
- Huda bint Mahmoud and her young children: Ahmad al-Mahmoud – Haydar al-Mahmoud - Sajida al-Mahmoud (who were the children of Ali Ahmad al-Mahmoud)<br />
http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/acloserlookonsyria/4/45/Homs_Abel_Notice.png<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
3.<br />
To me it looks like a trafic sign plastered over with a political message. I can only make out the first and last word on the second line: "al-shahid [the martyr]...[S?]ouriya (Syria)".<br />
<br />
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File:Taldou_shot-up_sign.png<br />
<br />
[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:15, 19 February 2014 (UTC)</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caustic_Logic&diff=11618User talk:Caustic Logic2014-02-19T09:15:48Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Some translations */</p>
<hr />
<div>==2014==<br />
Happy New Year! I'm still a few hours shy here, but so what. We enter our third year of operations. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
(optioonal space to make the below a subset)<br />
<br />
: Happy New Year from the future! The 4 has already kicked out the 3 at google.de! :o) Best wishes, --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Oh, shit! I am drunk! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
::What a cruise! They were serving free champagne at the Skyview Bar on deck 10 until 5 am.<br />
::Anyway, Happy New Year! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::You guys in the frozen North cruisin' around anyways. I partied right here, a lot to do. Not that far past 5 am still here, not too drunk yet or too far behinf schedule. A few more minutes of work left at least... then see ya again after about 8. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===History Mode===<br />
This site has been running since June, 2012. That's a year and a half. We've kicked ass. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In recent months, signs are increasing that it was the anti-government conspiracy, not the Syrian government, that was "delaying the inevitable" this whole time. The government will remain. The cancer will be routed and subdued in time. That's my guess. The urgency of possible imminent war over the Ghouta allegations yielding to inspections and peace talks instead marked a point of transition, where both the urgency of discerning the truth was heightened and then the calm of realizing the rebels are done settled in. So in the last months my thinking of what's best and most urgent to do has changed and I'm thinking in a more relaxed, long-term, historical study mode. I vote for the site to stay up and active for another 18 months at least, and hope to keep developing different aspects. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Did I mention I was a history major in college? I did manage to all but earn a BA degree before losing financial aid in a real blunder, and obviously never entered the profession in exchange for money, which I still have to work for. But anyway, here we are working the early part of an important historical record. To some extent that's always how I've thought of it, and more so now. <br />
<br />
In that mode, I've been archiving things. The [[VDC]] [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/otherstatistics regime forces database] used to do searches by name and civilian/non-civilian status (yes, both are listed, because "regime forces" means something else). But since I started using it, a while back, they disabled those. That spurred me to start a big searchable file of all listed entries. In time this might be worth sharing here, probably in chuncks. So far I've got the first several weeks saved, mostly just the short entries listed on the front page. Opening and saving each entry's page was too time-consuming. More useful has been gathering LCC daily reports, into text documents covering two months each. I mostly save the text only, video links where I feel like pausing for that one. A lot of videos aren't there anymore. These go back to August 12, August 13 and some sporadic days are missing, but otherwise I have maybe half of 2011 and some of 2012 covered so far. These I've been citing lately, mostly for [[Homs Massacres]]. These can be shared in chunks, with some (Aug-Oct 2011, Nov-Dec 2011) perhaps ready soon. A final version might have all video links, but that's a lot of time on my end, so I can post working copies prior to that. Format, etc. to be decided in time. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Malnourished victim ==<br />
(Suggested material I later worked into [[Starving Children in Moadamiyeh|this page]]) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<s>This was discussed somewhere:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2BcjatF-ao Child martyr Ibrahim Khalil result undernourishment Medmah the Sham 31 8 2013] – Mrkzmoadamia alsham<br />
You can remove the comment if you move the link somewhere. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I'll keep it here for right now, but it desrves a page soon. I'm on this one, in extremely general but effective terms, detail analysis hardly needed. At [http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/17107 an al-Akhbar article] on the UN report (a great one - I see we have it included, good) I saw a comment by fellow wiki member Clay Claiborne, who shifted the subject to allegations of regime shelling that was starving more kids in Moadamiya, this time a baby girl "in danger of death." <br />
:''Clay, these alleged baby-starving shells are off-topic emotive distractions here, and besides - babies get preference even under siege. If babies are starving and everyone else isn't, (are they? I only see scattered kids) look to the people immediately around that baby. One has a rebel activist video camera. Other activists explain the whole story and get suckers like you to push for NATO air cover, over these regime CW attacks and regime blockades.''<br />
Next step will be to get visuals of any non-starving rebel fighters who are running the place at the relebvant time, put the images side by side and ask why the fighters aren't sharing food with the kids. Was there a mercy embargo? Or do they just want more dead kids to guilt trip us with, in hopes we're not thinking straight (and most aren't). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Half-way related (I think), check [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/robert-fisk-in-damascus-assads-troops-may-be-winning-this-war-in-syrias-capital--untouched-by-obamas-threats-8825005.html what Fisk writes about Moadamiyah] and the operations of that night. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Definitely to note, more to the "chemical shelling" part we still didn't cover here yet. What's up with that? As for the shelling so bad even the babies are starving, here's the guys sent to meet the UN team on the 26th - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX0N2r4WzYI Youtube]. Everyone here seems leaner than average, actually, but that's probably a coincidence, other than about two pretty beefy guys by the door, and no one chubby. Not the best example I'm sure. For reference, the one Clay points to is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NbfLFgt77cY this], difficult to watch, unnecessary (filmed on or before September 23). A little girl, I don'y know, a year or two old but bald like newborn? Poorly kept by someone, cellophane diaper, rebel doctor jabbing at her symptoms at length for our edification. She's breathing hard, looking hard, thinking hard, cooperating, tender all over but jabbed all over, not at death's door but within a few blocks of it. I sense no human compassion coming her way from the people in this room. Subjective I know, but I dare you to test that. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)</s><br />
<br />
More sources on this:<br />
http://972mag.com/after-chemical-attack-damascus-suburbs-face-starvation/79851/ <br />
I left a comment in the Facebook pane. Curious if it come through. Also comments below, don't seem to have.<br />
<br />
I didn't do more here tonight/this AM because I thought we were in read-only mode. I hear that's to happen soon and for most of the weekend as they get everything onto new servers and hopefully solve the overload problems (?) they've been having. Anyway, been assembling some assorted things offline. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Pro-War Lefties==<br />
A thing I've been meaning to write on - self-described leftists and outright Communists and such who eagerly take almost exactly New York's position on Syria as if Marx himself would do the same. This when the target is besieged by fundamentalist and imperialist nations for standing with Iran (state-run central bank) in resistance to Israel, once allied to anti-Imperialist victim of imperialism Baathist Iraq (state bank), maintaining a strong Socialist leaning and the only Arab country (?) with a Communist party both allowed and doing well, placing second to Ba'ath in the May 2012 Peoples Assembly elections. And there are those who would tell us the anti-imperialist struggle is the one waged by Syria's youths with those bearded chins and shaved upper lips, and some of Libya's and Saud's rejects and Salfists from some 40 other countries, funneled and armed by Turkey and NATO, riled up by reactionary genocidal Gulf imams, its supposed leaders in Turkey recognized by the imperialist bloc, with Israeli air force help on occasion, and the al CIA-da cancer seeping into every slice made ... It's interesting to watch these people in action. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Louis Proyect<br />
Louis Proyect, an "unrepentant Marxist" has [http://louisproyect.org/2013/09/16/a-guide-for-the-perplexed-on-syria/ a guide for the perplexed on Syria], a list of guides he considers leftist who have penned convincing articles for the rebellion and against the regime. He derides "the Marxist purists who genuflect to Bashar al-Assad" and muses "How the “anti-imperialist” left can rally around a government capable of such depraved action is a mystery beyond comprehension." Capable of, accused of, same difference. One of his guides wrote:<br />
:''The main actors so far have been educated youth and unemployed youth seeking access to modernity ... many of the people in the streets are what I would call lumpen proletariat ... The other component of this movement comes from the lower middle class, especially young unemployed university graduates. ... because they have to live with their parents ...''<br />
To be fair, that's from 2011, but Proyect cites it in late August 2013, and offers elsewhere [http://louisproyect.org/2013/08/27/dos-and-donts-for-progressives-discussing-syria/ some "dos and dont's" for "progressives" discussing the war and hoping to do so in his style]. Included: <br />
:''DON’T obsess over al-Qaeda, Islamist extremists, jihadists, etc. ... DON’T let genuine concerns with US imperialism, Israel, Saudi, etc make you look at pictures and videos of dead children and think conspiracy. Bashar is an authoritarian dictator...'' <br />
... and probably did kill those kids and just leave them for rebels to find, again. After all, Proyect reminds us for context:<br />
:''[Asad's] record of resistance is a bit sketchy. Just remember he collaborated with the US on things such as CIA renditions. Just because the CIA is training a few fighters in Jordan or some anonymous rebel leader is quoted in some Israeli paper doesn’t mean this isn’t a legitimate Syrian uprising against a brutal regime.''<br />
As for how he gets so smart about what's going on, I don't know. I can say he doesn't seem open to new information. [http://louisproyect.org/2013/05/15/the-worst-atrocity-of-the-war-in-syria/ Highlighting "the worst atrocity of the war" in al-Bayda and Baniyas], he blamed the regime based on what activists said. When I pointed out in a comment that the victims were government-loyalist Imam who had called for all rebels to be killed a month before he and so many innocents were killed instead. He simply deleted that and pretended it didn't exist. Seems he learned some things from Stalin, anyway. I saved the comment, will dig it up and post here later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Side-note on the CIA rendition assistance: mainly seems to be Maher Ahrar ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar WP]). A Syrian-Canadian citizen, arrested on suspect intel as a possible AQ terrorist, sent by the United States to Syria instead of Canada, where he was held for a year, where the wikiperdia article says Arar "claims he was beaten for several hours and forced to falsely confess that he had attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. “I was willing to do anything to stop the torture,” he says." With these forced confessions in hand, the article says, "the Syrian government later stated that Arar was "completely innocent." and "Syrian official Imad Moustapha stated that "We tried to find anything. We couldn’t". Syrian authorities also denied that they tortured Arar." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Clay Claiborne<br />
I've been wanting to put together such a list for a while, but by now, one of the intended targets is a fellow member of this wiki. Any thoughts on the best way to take advantage of that dynamic for the greatest learning potential and the widest public good? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Threatening new editors ==<br />
<br />
Hi Caustic Logic,<br />
<br />
My name is Lynton from the ShoutWiki Customer Support Team. I dropped by your wiki in a random check for vandalism and spam, and came across [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PavewayIV&oldid=9343 this message] that you left on a new editor's talk page.<br />
<br />
I am quite concerned that this is your approach to wiki administration. Blocking should never be threatened to new editors who are yet to make any contributions to your wiki. You should be encouraging new editors and offering to show them 'around' and how to get started contributing. What you have done here (and I can only assume previously) is simply discourage or even scare off participation from new contributors.<br />
<br />
You have chosen to start an open wiki here on ShoutWiki, and with that comes certain requirements for you to act in an open and collaborative manner. If you aren't able to uphold those ideals, then we may have to review the administration of this wiki, which is certainly not something that I would like to do.<br />
<br />
I am keen to hear your thoughts on this matter. Please respond on my talk page so that I am notified.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
— [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 04:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Our [[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy is Explained]] here on the Community portal page. Please share your thoughts there or on the [[A Closer Look On Syria talk:Community portal|talk page]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi, Lynton! I wanted to say hi here and type out the response first. As Petri says, it's a policy we have, explained there ([[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|here]]). For my part, I'm the softie who was slow to block people at first. In fact I'm still vague what the problem with zombie accounts is, and at least as open as anyone to a change. And, in fact, as soon as I helped set that policy (I coined sign up and speak up!), it became less useful as real contributing members started showing up (but often still not speaking up right away) - I blocked one on accident (Claycali, see above) but we un-blocked him and I coaxed him back. So, we're enforcing loosely, giving benefits of the doubt and time. I certainly am keen not to chase away contributors of any sort, but we have the policy for some good reason. And I will now double-check that PavewayIV feels welcome as I hope, but with the warning in place until the three of us core folks agree to change it. Fair enough I hope? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks guys, I've read your responses and taken a look at your policy. I still have my concerns. If you are facing persistent vandalism or spam, then that is something we can assist you with, as we have a range of tools not available to wiki administrators to combat this. I've just blocked a number of IP addresses that have been problematic in the past. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have these issues again. That being said, I've seen your block log, and there are three entries for this month. The administrative effort to clean up after three accounts is hardly worth the massive disservice you are doing to this wiki by following this particular policy. I urge you to reconsider, and in the meantime I will consult with my colleagues regarding this particular policy. — [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 03:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Hi Lynton. I created this wiki, although i'm not the one who proposed the policy in question. That was [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] who has [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Petri_Krohn a chest full of badges over at wikipedia] and knows what he is doing. We made sure that nobody goes unaware of the policy not only by the description you were already made aware of, but also by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation-msg|a bold red message after account creation]]. The reason why there are only three blocks you have seen in October might have something to do with the fact that October wasn't a usual month at ShoutWiki. When signing up I've seen no "certain requirements" that would prevent us from cleaning the user list from zombie accounts, many of them easily to google as spammers, while giving clear guidelines to new users how they avoid to be mistaken as such. So, Caustic Logic did not really threaten the user, but gave him an additional reminder of our policy, I suppose because his name doesn't follow the usual pattern. Maybe we should keep in mind to do this in a friendlier manner, giving the benefit of the doubt not only by the action of an additional message, but also by the tone of it. Would that be better? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 10:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::We should have a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Welcome|Welcome]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template.<br />
:::As to the block log: No one has been blocked because of our "policy". We have one banned user, the "SEO Spammer". All the other accounts have been blocked as verified or suspected sockpuppets of this one user (or simply for spamming). How we identify sock puppets is an other story. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Stuff==<br />
===Absence Note===<br />
Just as Petri re-appeared, I disappeared. It's only been a day or so, but in case anyone's worried, I'm popping on at Fed Ex Kinkos for a minute to say didn't die. My ancient modem finally did. The new one should be here in a day or two and I'll be back then. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:<brag>Did I mention that I have fiber-to-the-home.</brag><br />
:Screw modems! In a previous life I connected about 1000 of my neighborhood homes to the Internet with fast Ethernet connections – for free. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::An interesting brag, but otherwise, whatever, I'm set up again. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===formatting chat===<br />
As i've seen you added an supposedly internal Noura link, and i've fixed one or two already and saw also Petri fix one, here's a little smart-assery (so that you have your own talk page as well ;o)):<br />
<br />
An external link, like you used now, has the problem that should the wiki move at one point, those links are "hardwired" and have to get fixed manually (and they have that little symbol indicating them to be external). This is what you used:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Houla:Alleged_witnesses_for_a_government/Shabiha_attack#Noura.2C_15 Noura]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Single brackets, link, space, description. An internal link goes like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[Houla:Alleged witnesses for a government/Shabiha attack#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Double brackets, name of the article, pipe, description. Relative, should URL change it will still work. And if the internal link goes to a different section of the same article, you can shorten it like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] 00:29, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Oh, I thought that only worked when it had the exact name of a whole page. Will practice and keep in mind. Thanks for the smart-assness, hope to be just as smart-assed someday. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 09:01, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
===What's wrong with front pages?===<br />
(moved from [[Talk:Talkalakh massacre]])<br />
I just went to create a front page before someone created a re-direct, but was too slow. I see it does appear under "All Pages", so that's cool. But I still find a slight problem in that talk pages don't show up under "new pages." Anyone looking there will think we have no such page and move on. I prefer the MO I usually use of having a stub page with a hard re-direct to talk. Most subject warrant and get some kind of front page past the stub, eventually. A request, or alternately, invitation to debate reasons. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The redirect is there partly because it is included in [[:Category:Massacres]]. Without it it would be really difficult to find this talk page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I think I see that. You'd have to know to look under T, for Talk, not T for Talkalakh... Hmm, odd example to use this on. Same problem though for Houla but worse -skip to "the." The idea of a prominent re-direct is to re-direct people and minimize that problem. It can be missed by a sloppy reader, so the automation would help with that. And some people just won't look at two pages. Hmmm... Ah, I'm tired. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::What is the problem? The category is in the redirect, not on the Talk page. '''''T'''alkalakh massacre'' is listed under '''T''' in [[:Category:Massacres]]. The italics in the category view mean it is a redirect, not a real article page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Oh I don't know. I'm still tired. Never mind. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: That's timely, I was meaning to say something about an I think unfortunate development. I first liked the idea of having a talk page before an article page, but not to the extent it is happening now. Most of what is on our long talk pages belongs on the front page. Wiki pages are not meant to be static anyway, they develop. And it's very difficult for people to extract information out of our mixed Information-Chatter-Information style pages as they are now. For example the amazing work you lately did with the Homs stuff, most of that is more than ready to be on the front page, minus a few subjective remarks and all the signatures scattered around. I encourage us to do more work directly on front pages again and use the talk pages only for what they are meant to be: Talk - about certain unclear details, scopes of articles, specific research that needs input of others, etc. Otherwise it's really a waste of energy and counter-productive, as likely nobody will go through the mess and extract the info after the topic is cold and everybody wandered off to the next. In this spirit I started the Adra front page. :o) --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::You're totally right, mainly. I think between front page material and the usual talk page stuff is a zone of semi-fluid detailed stuff ... that should just be squished into the talk page category. But some can be cut out and moved, and some stubs graduated. It's been an issue for a while, because it'll probably take a while to move much. Anyone can feel free to move my stuff (because so much of the chatter is mine), Homs Massacres is ready to move today or so, though in that case I want to clean it up along the way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: First of all, so much (like everything) of the '''content''' is yours and there is no reason to not put it directly to the front page while you are researching it. We others can correct little stuff like typos etc without being shy about it, and factual/etc disagreements can be raised on the talk page if they appear. This also goes to our "new" members: Don't be shy to add to front pages. There should be, for example, a paragraph somewhere about those Higgins/Hersh/etc controversies, where new stuff can be added by a factual statement ("in return Higgins had no problems to publish an article at the established Foreign Policy website" with a [[A_Closer_Look_On_Syria:Community_portal#Basic_Formatting|reference]] to that article). So that in time there will be something that is informative and grows with the development without further need to edit. Like for example the section of the Ghouta thing I took care of on the front page, the Sellström investigation. Just had to [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013&diff=9969&oldid=9708 fix the tense and add a link], and voila. You noticed that the final report was released? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:34, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Cool, I scanned the report. Almost said something, but it wasn't enough to bother. Something like I look forward to analysis of this, it seems quite interesting. As for talk page use, one thing I started to say above - there's issues of contention, opinion and discussion, collaborative research, and maybe "workspace" has been a crutch, but there's also another use I should fish for thoughts on. Some stuff is worked-out, but I feel like it's just too detailed for the casual reader and should just get a summary up-front and more space in the rear. But just typing this out I think the answer is oh well, that's why there are section breaks, etc. It should go up front. Right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: To drive this home: I am the "super admin" here, just because I technically started this wiki (I could theoretically change its name or the background color). Me, Caustic Logic and Petri Krohn are the three admins here and that core team will stay like that for the foreseeable future. We are not in any form moderating on-topic content, as long as it is based on information and not just baseless slander. Everybody is entitled to start new pages about topics they are interested in, and add to existing topics in a reasonable manner. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: Seconded. Instincts against stepping on peoples' toes are good enough, but that can go too far. Anything helpful with new pages, edits and re-arrangement on old ones, etc. is probably cool. It's my toe you'd step on half the time, and I'll probably catch and politely contest any changes I disagree with, but usually I'll just agree, I presume. And not to push off work except kind of. I'll be working on this stuff too. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Okay, I've been thinking more as I work, still using talk pages as just workspace. One thing is if the research was a discussion it'd stay since it's talk. But I can't help it if no one else stepped in and the talk is monologue. I say this isn't wikipedia and we needn't follow their formula. Talk page can mean back page for chatter, all too-detailed info for a readable front page, and all that. But recognizing it's hard to sift through, anything important should go on (or at least be linked right from) front pages, which we need more of and more filled in. Two pages of space for each subject has been handy. CE, anyone else, what do you think of that perspective?--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I'm not really sure if I get what you mean. My main point was that one (incl. you) shouldn't be shy to put stuff directly on the front page instead of collecting it with many signatures on the talk page. Mainly for future articles. So that the sorting-out you did rather successfully now re:Homs doesn't have to be done in the first place. By all means use the talk page for everything that helps your way of working. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 18:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: I was just thinking about it too much, and a bit wrong. I feel a front page deserves good standards I'm not always feeling up to. But you're right that it's easier to just do the work and revisions right there where people are most likely by habit to look. Saves some time with copying that, so far, often just never happens. Will keep working on that. And everyone else (including you) feel free to adopt and populate any front page you notice sorely lacking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rooftop Massacre ==<br />
<br />
I'm not sure where to introduce this as a topic. As far as I can tell it's not on any page here.<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=36d_1366100603 Rooftop Bodies Aleppo]<br />
<br />
And associated video<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=28b_1388119014 "Grenade Civilians"]<br />
<br />
It appears to be April 2013 in Aleppo and a score or so of soldiers blown up, shot, and beheaded, and possibly civilians as well --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks. It doesn't sound familiar, and a lot does fall through the cracks. I'm thinking back to April, Aleppo, and rooftops and I've zeroed in one one, through which alleged chemical grenades were dropped from a helicopter, or tossed by hand down an open stairwell... Strictly context. This is very interesting video. I'm not even certain these are the same scenes. I would imagine a scene like that - men trying to surrender on the roof of a smoking building, just blown away in cold blood - HRW or someone should have mentioned that. I'll check into it. And compare the videos to see if this is one or two rooftop massacres or one. Interesting, but maybe not its-own-page interesting. The best place to take a copy might be Siege of Aleppo, which I think still needs a front page. So [[Talk:Siege of Aleppo]]. Oh, and [[Other research]] is a good spot for recommendations. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::I started [[Other research#Aleppo Rooftop Massacre|a spot]] at other research. Whichever of us gets inspired first can copy over the links. I'll save analysis or additions 'til then or later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Does this have some relationship with the bodies thrown off the roof of the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhVQiqoTtdw&bpctr=1388242598 Post Office in Al-Bab?] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Seems to be a different and more recent scene, and only one guy is apparently blasted off the roof (if the same scene, there must have been more blasts or something). About corresponds to the swarming of Sheikh Maqsoud district in Aleppo. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Some translations ==<br />
<br />
1.<br />
The martyrs are claimed by “The National Defence Forces in Homs and its countryside”. They “sacrified their pure blood on the path of the soil of the homeland and the glory of al-Assad’s Syria”. They are all apparently Christians by their names and as the memorial services are to be held in churches.<br />
They all carry the title ”al-shahid malazim sharaf” meaning “the martyr” + some kind of military grade “Honorary lieutenant”? <br />
No info on time, place or circumstances of death.<br />
- Fadi Matanius Iliyas<br />
- Samir Abid Watfa<br />
- Jacko Isa Sa’ada<br />
- Sumer Isa Yaziji<br />
- Basil Malik Salih<br />
http://www.all4syria.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/28.jpg<br />
<br />
2.<br />
Martyrs of the tribe of al-Akidat al-Bu Assaf<br />
They died Monday 25/03 2013 in Mazari’ Abil “among those unknown”.<br />
- Qatash al-Mahmoud (Abu Mahmoud) and his wife Nusra al-Mahmoud (Um Mahmoud)<br />
- Hawash al-Mahmoud (Abu Ali) and his wife Ghaziya al-Ifir<br />
- Children of Qatash: Mahmoud al-Mahmoud (Abu Ahmad) and his wife Khadra al-Mahmoud<br />
- Fuad al-Mahmoud (Abu Hamza) – Hamida al-Mahmoud<br />
- Huda bint Mahmoud and her young children: Ahmad al-Mahmoud – Haydar al-Mahmoud - Sajida al-Mahmoud (who were the children of Ali Ahmad al-Mahmoud)<br />
http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/acloserlookonsyria/4/45/Homs_Abel_Notice.png<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
3.<br />
To me it looks like a trafic sign plastered over with a political message. I can only make out the first and last word on the second line: "al-shahid [the martyr]...[S?]ouriya (Syria)".<br />
<br />
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File:Taldou_shot-up_sign.png<br />
<br />
[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:15, 19 February 2014 (UTC)</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caustic_Logic&diff=11617User talk:Caustic Logic2014-02-19T09:09:31Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Some translations */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>==2014==<br />
Happy New Year! I'm still a few hours shy here, but so what. We enter our third year of operations. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
(optioonal space to make the below a subset)<br />
<br />
: Happy New Year from the future! The 4 has already kicked out the 3 at google.de! :o) Best wishes, --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Oh, shit! I am drunk! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
::What a cruise! They were serving free champagne at the Skyview Bar on deck 10 until 5 am.<br />
::Anyway, Happy New Year! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::You guys in the frozen North cruisin' around anyways. I partied right here, a lot to do. Not that far past 5 am still here, not too drunk yet or too far behinf schedule. A few more minutes of work left at least... then see ya again after about 8. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===History Mode===<br />
This site has been running since June, 2012. That's a year and a half. We've kicked ass. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In recent months, signs are increasing that it was the anti-government conspiracy, not the Syrian government, that was "delaying the inevitable" this whole time. The government will remain. The cancer will be routed and subdued in time. That's my guess. The urgency of possible imminent war over the Ghouta allegations yielding to inspections and peace talks instead marked a point of transition, where both the urgency of discerning the truth was heightened and then the calm of realizing the rebels are done settled in. So in the last months my thinking of what's best and most urgent to do has changed and I'm thinking in a more relaxed, long-term, historical study mode. I vote for the site to stay up and active for another 18 months at least, and hope to keep developing different aspects. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Did I mention I was a history major in college? I did manage to all but earn a BA degree before losing financial aid in a real blunder, and obviously never entered the profession in exchange for money, which I still have to work for. But anyway, here we are working the early part of an important historical record. To some extent that's always how I've thought of it, and more so now. <br />
<br />
In that mode, I've been archiving things. The [[VDC]] [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/otherstatistics regime forces database] used to do searches by name and civilian/non-civilian status (yes, both are listed, because "regime forces" means something else). But since I started using it, a while back, they disabled those. That spurred me to start a big searchable file of all listed entries. In time this might be worth sharing here, probably in chuncks. So far I've got the first several weeks saved, mostly just the short entries listed on the front page. Opening and saving each entry's page was too time-consuming. More useful has been gathering LCC daily reports, into text documents covering two months each. I mostly save the text only, video links where I feel like pausing for that one. A lot of videos aren't there anymore. These go back to August 12, August 13 and some sporadic days are missing, but otherwise I have maybe half of 2011 and some of 2012 covered so far. These I've been citing lately, mostly for [[Homs Massacres]]. These can be shared in chunks, with some (Aug-Oct 2011, Nov-Dec 2011) perhaps ready soon. A final version might have all video links, but that's a lot of time on my end, so I can post working copies prior to that. Format, etc. to be decided in time. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Malnourished victim ==<br />
(Suggested material I later worked into [[Starving Children in Moadamiyeh|this page]]) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<s>This was discussed somewhere:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2BcjatF-ao Child martyr Ibrahim Khalil result undernourishment Medmah the Sham 31 8 2013] – Mrkzmoadamia alsham<br />
You can remove the comment if you move the link somewhere. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I'll keep it here for right now, but it desrves a page soon. I'm on this one, in extremely general but effective terms, detail analysis hardly needed. At [http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/17107 an al-Akhbar article] on the UN report (a great one - I see we have it included, good) I saw a comment by fellow wiki member Clay Claiborne, who shifted the subject to allegations of regime shelling that was starving more kids in Moadamiya, this time a baby girl "in danger of death." <br />
:''Clay, these alleged baby-starving shells are off-topic emotive distractions here, and besides - babies get preference even under siege. If babies are starving and everyone else isn't, (are they? I only see scattered kids) look to the people immediately around that baby. One has a rebel activist video camera. Other activists explain the whole story and get suckers like you to push for NATO air cover, over these regime CW attacks and regime blockades.''<br />
Next step will be to get visuals of any non-starving rebel fighters who are running the place at the relebvant time, put the images side by side and ask why the fighters aren't sharing food with the kids. Was there a mercy embargo? Or do they just want more dead kids to guilt trip us with, in hopes we're not thinking straight (and most aren't). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Half-way related (I think), check [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/robert-fisk-in-damascus-assads-troops-may-be-winning-this-war-in-syrias-capital--untouched-by-obamas-threats-8825005.html what Fisk writes about Moadamiyah] and the operations of that night. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Definitely to note, more to the "chemical shelling" part we still didn't cover here yet. What's up with that? As for the shelling so bad even the babies are starving, here's the guys sent to meet the UN team on the 26th - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX0N2r4WzYI Youtube]. Everyone here seems leaner than average, actually, but that's probably a coincidence, other than about two pretty beefy guys by the door, and no one chubby. Not the best example I'm sure. For reference, the one Clay points to is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NbfLFgt77cY this], difficult to watch, unnecessary (filmed on or before September 23). A little girl, I don'y know, a year or two old but bald like newborn? Poorly kept by someone, cellophane diaper, rebel doctor jabbing at her symptoms at length for our edification. She's breathing hard, looking hard, thinking hard, cooperating, tender all over but jabbed all over, not at death's door but within a few blocks of it. I sense no human compassion coming her way from the people in this room. Subjective I know, but I dare you to test that. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)</s><br />
<br />
More sources on this:<br />
http://972mag.com/after-chemical-attack-damascus-suburbs-face-starvation/79851/ <br />
I left a comment in the Facebook pane. Curious if it come through. Also comments below, don't seem to have.<br />
<br />
I didn't do more here tonight/this AM because I thought we were in read-only mode. I hear that's to happen soon and for most of the weekend as they get everything onto new servers and hopefully solve the overload problems (?) they've been having. Anyway, been assembling some assorted things offline. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Pro-War Lefties==<br />
A thing I've been meaning to write on - self-described leftists and outright Communists and such who eagerly take almost exactly New York's position on Syria as if Marx himself would do the same. This when the target is besieged by fundamentalist and imperialist nations for standing with Iran (state-run central bank) in resistance to Israel, once allied to anti-Imperialist victim of imperialism Baathist Iraq (state bank), maintaining a strong Socialist leaning and the only Arab country (?) with a Communist party both allowed and doing well, placing second to Ba'ath in the May 2012 Peoples Assembly elections. And there are those who would tell us the anti-imperialist struggle is the one waged by Syria's youths with those bearded chins and shaved upper lips, and some of Libya's and Saud's rejects and Salfists from some 40 other countries, funneled and armed by Turkey and NATO, riled up by reactionary genocidal Gulf imams, its supposed leaders in Turkey recognized by the imperialist bloc, with Israeli air force help on occasion, and the al CIA-da cancer seeping into every slice made ... It's interesting to watch these people in action. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Louis Proyect<br />
Louis Proyect, an "unrepentant Marxist" has [http://louisproyect.org/2013/09/16/a-guide-for-the-perplexed-on-syria/ a guide for the perplexed on Syria], a list of guides he considers leftist who have penned convincing articles for the rebellion and against the regime. He derides "the Marxist purists who genuflect to Bashar al-Assad" and muses "How the “anti-imperialist” left can rally around a government capable of such depraved action is a mystery beyond comprehension." Capable of, accused of, same difference. One of his guides wrote:<br />
:''The main actors so far have been educated youth and unemployed youth seeking access to modernity ... many of the people in the streets are what I would call lumpen proletariat ... The other component of this movement comes from the lower middle class, especially young unemployed university graduates. ... because they have to live with their parents ...''<br />
To be fair, that's from 2011, but Proyect cites it in late August 2013, and offers elsewhere [http://louisproyect.org/2013/08/27/dos-and-donts-for-progressives-discussing-syria/ some "dos and dont's" for "progressives" discussing the war and hoping to do so in his style]. Included: <br />
:''DON’T obsess over al-Qaeda, Islamist extremists, jihadists, etc. ... DON’T let genuine concerns with US imperialism, Israel, Saudi, etc make you look at pictures and videos of dead children and think conspiracy. Bashar is an authoritarian dictator...'' <br />
... and probably did kill those kids and just leave them for rebels to find, again. After all, Proyect reminds us for context:<br />
:''[Asad's] record of resistance is a bit sketchy. Just remember he collaborated with the US on things such as CIA renditions. Just because the CIA is training a few fighters in Jordan or some anonymous rebel leader is quoted in some Israeli paper doesn’t mean this isn’t a legitimate Syrian uprising against a brutal regime.''<br />
As for how he gets so smart about what's going on, I don't know. I can say he doesn't seem open to new information. [http://louisproyect.org/2013/05/15/the-worst-atrocity-of-the-war-in-syria/ Highlighting "the worst atrocity of the war" in al-Bayda and Baniyas], he blamed the regime based on what activists said. When I pointed out in a comment that the victims were government-loyalist Imam who had called for all rebels to be killed a month before he and so many innocents were killed instead. He simply deleted that and pretended it didn't exist. Seems he learned some things from Stalin, anyway. I saved the comment, will dig it up and post here later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Side-note on the CIA rendition assistance: mainly seems to be Maher Ahrar ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar WP]). A Syrian-Canadian citizen, arrested on suspect intel as a possible AQ terrorist, sent by the United States to Syria instead of Canada, where he was held for a year, where the wikiperdia article says Arar "claims he was beaten for several hours and forced to falsely confess that he had attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. “I was willing to do anything to stop the torture,” he says." With these forced confessions in hand, the article says, "the Syrian government later stated that Arar was "completely innocent." and "Syrian official Imad Moustapha stated that "We tried to find anything. We couldn’t". Syrian authorities also denied that they tortured Arar." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Clay Claiborne<br />
I've been wanting to put together such a list for a while, but by now, one of the intended targets is a fellow member of this wiki. Any thoughts on the best way to take advantage of that dynamic for the greatest learning potential and the widest public good? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Threatening new editors ==<br />
<br />
Hi Caustic Logic,<br />
<br />
My name is Lynton from the ShoutWiki Customer Support Team. I dropped by your wiki in a random check for vandalism and spam, and came across [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PavewayIV&oldid=9343 this message] that you left on a new editor's talk page.<br />
<br />
I am quite concerned that this is your approach to wiki administration. Blocking should never be threatened to new editors who are yet to make any contributions to your wiki. You should be encouraging new editors and offering to show them 'around' and how to get started contributing. What you have done here (and I can only assume previously) is simply discourage or even scare off participation from new contributors.<br />
<br />
You have chosen to start an open wiki here on ShoutWiki, and with that comes certain requirements for you to act in an open and collaborative manner. If you aren't able to uphold those ideals, then we may have to review the administration of this wiki, which is certainly not something that I would like to do.<br />
<br />
I am keen to hear your thoughts on this matter. Please respond on my talk page so that I am notified.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
— [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 04:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Our [[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy is Explained]] here on the Community portal page. Please share your thoughts there or on the [[A Closer Look On Syria talk:Community portal|talk page]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi, Lynton! I wanted to say hi here and type out the response first. As Petri says, it's a policy we have, explained there ([[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|here]]). For my part, I'm the softie who was slow to block people at first. In fact I'm still vague what the problem with zombie accounts is, and at least as open as anyone to a change. And, in fact, as soon as I helped set that policy (I coined sign up and speak up!), it became less useful as real contributing members started showing up (but often still not speaking up right away) - I blocked one on accident (Claycali, see above) but we un-blocked him and I coaxed him back. So, we're enforcing loosely, giving benefits of the doubt and time. I certainly am keen not to chase away contributors of any sort, but we have the policy for some good reason. And I will now double-check that PavewayIV feels welcome as I hope, but with the warning in place until the three of us core folks agree to change it. Fair enough I hope? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks guys, I've read your responses and taken a look at your policy. I still have my concerns. If you are facing persistent vandalism or spam, then that is something we can assist you with, as we have a range of tools not available to wiki administrators to combat this. I've just blocked a number of IP addresses that have been problematic in the past. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have these issues again. That being said, I've seen your block log, and there are three entries for this month. The administrative effort to clean up after three accounts is hardly worth the massive disservice you are doing to this wiki by following this particular policy. I urge you to reconsider, and in the meantime I will consult with my colleagues regarding this particular policy. — [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 03:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Hi Lynton. I created this wiki, although i'm not the one who proposed the policy in question. That was [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] who has [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Petri_Krohn a chest full of badges over at wikipedia] and knows what he is doing. We made sure that nobody goes unaware of the policy not only by the description you were already made aware of, but also by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation-msg|a bold red message after account creation]]. The reason why there are only three blocks you have seen in October might have something to do with the fact that October wasn't a usual month at ShoutWiki. When signing up I've seen no "certain requirements" that would prevent us from cleaning the user list from zombie accounts, many of them easily to google as spammers, while giving clear guidelines to new users how they avoid to be mistaken as such. So, Caustic Logic did not really threaten the user, but gave him an additional reminder of our policy, I suppose because his name doesn't follow the usual pattern. Maybe we should keep in mind to do this in a friendlier manner, giving the benefit of the doubt not only by the action of an additional message, but also by the tone of it. Would that be better? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 10:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::We should have a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Welcome|Welcome]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template.<br />
:::As to the block log: No one has been blocked because of our "policy". We have one banned user, the "SEO Spammer". All the other accounts have been blocked as verified or suspected sockpuppets of this one user (or simply for spamming). How we identify sock puppets is an other story. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Stuff==<br />
===Absence Note===<br />
Just as Petri re-appeared, I disappeared. It's only been a day or so, but in case anyone's worried, I'm popping on at Fed Ex Kinkos for a minute to say didn't die. My ancient modem finally did. The new one should be here in a day or two and I'll be back then. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:<brag>Did I mention that I have fiber-to-the-home.</brag><br />
:Screw modems! In a previous life I connected about 1000 of my neighborhood homes to the Internet with fast Ethernet connections – for free. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::An interesting brag, but otherwise, whatever, I'm set up again. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===formatting chat===<br />
As i've seen you added an supposedly internal Noura link, and i've fixed one or two already and saw also Petri fix one, here's a little smart-assery (so that you have your own talk page as well ;o)):<br />
<br />
An external link, like you used now, has the problem that should the wiki move at one point, those links are "hardwired" and have to get fixed manually (and they have that little symbol indicating them to be external). This is what you used:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Houla:Alleged_witnesses_for_a_government/Shabiha_attack#Noura.2C_15 Noura]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Single brackets, link, space, description. An internal link goes like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[Houla:Alleged witnesses for a government/Shabiha attack#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Double brackets, name of the article, pipe, description. Relative, should URL change it will still work. And if the internal link goes to a different section of the same article, you can shorten it like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] 00:29, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Oh, I thought that only worked when it had the exact name of a whole page. Will practice and keep in mind. Thanks for the smart-assness, hope to be just as smart-assed someday. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 09:01, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
===What's wrong with front pages?===<br />
(moved from [[Talk:Talkalakh massacre]])<br />
I just went to create a front page before someone created a re-direct, but was too slow. I see it does appear under "All Pages", so that's cool. But I still find a slight problem in that talk pages don't show up under "new pages." Anyone looking there will think we have no such page and move on. I prefer the MO I usually use of having a stub page with a hard re-direct to talk. Most subject warrant and get some kind of front page past the stub, eventually. A request, or alternately, invitation to debate reasons. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The redirect is there partly because it is included in [[:Category:Massacres]]. Without it it would be really difficult to find this talk page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I think I see that. You'd have to know to look under T, for Talk, not T for Talkalakh... Hmm, odd example to use this on. Same problem though for Houla but worse -skip to "the." The idea of a prominent re-direct is to re-direct people and minimize that problem. It can be missed by a sloppy reader, so the automation would help with that. And some people just won't look at two pages. Hmmm... Ah, I'm tired. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::What is the problem? The category is in the redirect, not on the Talk page. '''''T'''alkalakh massacre'' is listed under '''T''' in [[:Category:Massacres]]. The italics in the category view mean it is a redirect, not a real article page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Oh I don't know. I'm still tired. Never mind. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: That's timely, I was meaning to say something about an I think unfortunate development. I first liked the idea of having a talk page before an article page, but not to the extent it is happening now. Most of what is on our long talk pages belongs on the front page. Wiki pages are not meant to be static anyway, they develop. And it's very difficult for people to extract information out of our mixed Information-Chatter-Information style pages as they are now. For example the amazing work you lately did with the Homs stuff, most of that is more than ready to be on the front page, minus a few subjective remarks and all the signatures scattered around. I encourage us to do more work directly on front pages again and use the talk pages only for what they are meant to be: Talk - about certain unclear details, scopes of articles, specific research that needs input of others, etc. Otherwise it's really a waste of energy and counter-productive, as likely nobody will go through the mess and extract the info after the topic is cold and everybody wandered off to the next. In this spirit I started the Adra front page. :o) --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::You're totally right, mainly. I think between front page material and the usual talk page stuff is a zone of semi-fluid detailed stuff ... that should just be squished into the talk page category. But some can be cut out and moved, and some stubs graduated. It's been an issue for a while, because it'll probably take a while to move much. Anyone can feel free to move my stuff (because so much of the chatter is mine), Homs Massacres is ready to move today or so, though in that case I want to clean it up along the way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: First of all, so much (like everything) of the '''content''' is yours and there is no reason to not put it directly to the front page while you are researching it. We others can correct little stuff like typos etc without being shy about it, and factual/etc disagreements can be raised on the talk page if they appear. This also goes to our "new" members: Don't be shy to add to front pages. There should be, for example, a paragraph somewhere about those Higgins/Hersh/etc controversies, where new stuff can be added by a factual statement ("in return Higgins had no problems to publish an article at the established Foreign Policy website" with a [[A_Closer_Look_On_Syria:Community_portal#Basic_Formatting|reference]] to that article). So that in time there will be something that is informative and grows with the development without further need to edit. Like for example the section of the Ghouta thing I took care of on the front page, the Sellström investigation. Just had to [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013&diff=9969&oldid=9708 fix the tense and add a link], and voila. You noticed that the final report was released? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:34, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Cool, I scanned the report. Almost said something, but it wasn't enough to bother. Something like I look forward to analysis of this, it seems quite interesting. As for talk page use, one thing I started to say above - there's issues of contention, opinion and discussion, collaborative research, and maybe "workspace" has been a crutch, but there's also another use I should fish for thoughts on. Some stuff is worked-out, but I feel like it's just too detailed for the casual reader and should just get a summary up-front and more space in the rear. But just typing this out I think the answer is oh well, that's why there are section breaks, etc. It should go up front. Right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: To drive this home: I am the "super admin" here, just because I technically started this wiki (I could theoretically change its name or the background color). Me, Caustic Logic and Petri Krohn are the three admins here and that core team will stay like that for the foreseeable future. We are not in any form moderating on-topic content, as long as it is based on information and not just baseless slander. Everybody is entitled to start new pages about topics they are interested in, and add to existing topics in a reasonable manner. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: Seconded. Instincts against stepping on peoples' toes are good enough, but that can go too far. Anything helpful with new pages, edits and re-arrangement on old ones, etc. is probably cool. It's my toe you'd step on half the time, and I'll probably catch and politely contest any changes I disagree with, but usually I'll just agree, I presume. And not to push off work except kind of. I'll be working on this stuff too. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Okay, I've been thinking more as I work, still using talk pages as just workspace. One thing is if the research was a discussion it'd stay since it's talk. But I can't help it if no one else stepped in and the talk is monologue. I say this isn't wikipedia and we needn't follow their formula. Talk page can mean back page for chatter, all too-detailed info for a readable front page, and all that. But recognizing it's hard to sift through, anything important should go on (or at least be linked right from) front pages, which we need more of and more filled in. Two pages of space for each subject has been handy. CE, anyone else, what do you think of that perspective?--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I'm not really sure if I get what you mean. My main point was that one (incl. you) shouldn't be shy to put stuff directly on the front page instead of collecting it with many signatures on the talk page. Mainly for future articles. So that the sorting-out you did rather successfully now re:Homs doesn't have to be done in the first place. By all means use the talk page for everything that helps your way of working. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 18:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: I was just thinking about it too much, and a bit wrong. I feel a front page deserves good standards I'm not always feeling up to. But you're right that it's easier to just do the work and revisions right there where people are most likely by habit to look. Saves some time with copying that, so far, often just never happens. Will keep working on that. And everyone else (including you) feel free to adopt and populate any front page you notice sorely lacking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rooftop Massacre ==<br />
<br />
I'm not sure where to introduce this as a topic. As far as I can tell it's not on any page here.<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=36d_1366100603 Rooftop Bodies Aleppo]<br />
<br />
And associated video<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=28b_1388119014 "Grenade Civilians"]<br />
<br />
It appears to be April 2013 in Aleppo and a score or so of soldiers blown up, shot, and beheaded, and possibly civilians as well --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks. It doesn't sound familiar, and a lot does fall through the cracks. I'm thinking back to April, Aleppo, and rooftops and I've zeroed in one one, through which alleged chemical grenades were dropped from a helicopter, or tossed by hand down an open stairwell... Strictly context. This is very interesting video. I'm not even certain these are the same scenes. I would imagine a scene like that - men trying to surrender on the roof of a smoking building, just blown away in cold blood - HRW or someone should have mentioned that. I'll check into it. And compare the videos to see if this is one or two rooftop massacres or one. Interesting, but maybe not its-own-page interesting. The best place to take a copy might be Siege of Aleppo, which I think still needs a front page. So [[Talk:Siege of Aleppo]]. Oh, and [[Other research]] is a good spot for recommendations. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::I started [[Other research#Aleppo Rooftop Massacre|a spot]] at other research. Whichever of us gets inspired first can copy over the links. I'll save analysis or additions 'til then or later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Does this have some relationship with the bodies thrown off the roof of the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhVQiqoTtdw&bpctr=1388242598 Post Office in Al-Bab?] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Seems to be a different and more recent scene, and only one guy is apparently blasted off the roof (if the same scene, there must have been more blasts or something). About corresponds to the swarming of Sheikh Maqsoud district in Aleppo. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Some translations ==<br />
<br />
1.<br />
The martyrs are claimed by “The National Defence Forces in Homs and its countryside”. They “sacrified their pure blood on the path of the soil of the homeland and the glory of al-Assad’s Syria”. They are all apparently Christians by their names and as the memorial services are to be held in churches.<br />
They all carry the title ”al-shahid malazim sharaf” meaning “the martyr” + some kind of military grade “Honorary lieutenant”? <br />
No info on time, place or circumstances of death.<br />
- Fadi Matanius Iliyas<br />
- Samir Abid Watfa<br />
- Jacko Isa Sa’ada<br />
- Sumer Isa Yaziji<br />
- Basil Malik Salih<br />
http://www.all4syria.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/28.jpg<br />
<br />
2.<br />
Martyrs of the tribe of al-Akidat al-Bu Assaf<br />
They died Monday 25/03 2013 in Mazari’ Abil “among those unknown”.<br />
- Qatash al-Mahmoud (Abu Mahmoud) and his wife Nusra al-Mahmoud (Um Mahmoud)<br />
- Hawash al-Mahmoud (Abu Ali) and his wife Ghaziya al-Ifir<br />
- Children of Qatash: Mahmoud al-Mahmoud (Abu Ahmad) and his wife Khadra al-Mahmoud<br />
- Fuad al-Mahmoud (Abu Hamza) – Hamida al-Mahmoud<br />
- Huda bint Mahmoud and her young children: Ahmad al-Mahmoud – Haydar al-Mahmoud - Sajida al-Mahmoud (who were the children of Ali Ahmad al-Mahmoud)<br />
http://www.shoutwiki.com/w/images/acloserlookonsyria/4/45/Homs_Abel_Notice.png<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 09:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Petri_Krohn&diff=6763User talk:Petri Krohn2013-08-29T20:07:57Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Motives? */</p>
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Hi, Petri! Thanks for joining, no pressure to do anything, but pleasedo, or I'll jump out a window - first (ground) floor. <br /> I hear you have done wiki stuff before. When you get a chance, can you look over the witness pages and fix anything wrong, so I can see what it looks like not wrong? Thx. - CL<br />
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Must say, Petri, you've been kicking ass widely here, esp. on 'Houla.' Too many spots to note each with its due, so let me just say here thanks for your work! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 21:18, 2 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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== Tit Crisis hits Finland ==<br />
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Got back from [http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUHsABTJN4WosiS0ySwBYXeD&feature=mh_lolz Strasbourg.] Took the taxi straight from the airport to the Finnish National Broadcasting Company studios. While we were away, the ''Tit Crisis'' had escalated to a new level.<br />
<br />
* Levels of international crises:<br />
*# Finnish president Niinistö [http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/finnish-leader-discusses-child-dispute-with-putin/469632.html calls] Putin to solve crisis.<br />
*# Finnish president Niinistö [http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_10_11/Zavgorodnaya-to-apply-to-the-European-Court-of-Human-Rights/ meets] Putin to solve crisis.<br />
*# Putin [http://yle.fi/uutiset/niinisto-putin_meeting_cancelled/6332206 cancels] pre-planned meeting with Finnish president Niinistö because of crisis. '''''? We are now here.'''''<br />
<br />
At the TV headquarters my friend Dr. Bäckman gave a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bePY8XzSFzk 5 minute interview] outside the TV studios, while our taxi stood by waiting. Later in the evening [http://yle.fi/uutiset/suomalaisdosentti_venajan_median_tiedot_eivat_ole_minulta/6332211 it was splashed] over half of the YLE.fi web page. The [http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1660531 evenings news broadcast] spent the first 5 minutes covering the latest twists of the story. Today, Friday the censorship was relaxed and the victim was finally allowed to have her say in the Finnish press. The stories covered a total of 7 pages in the two tabloids combined (front pages included). The leading Finnish newspaper ''Helsingin Sanomat'' is now averaging [http://www.freezepage.com/1350089325QHSCTHVREW two stories a day on the issue.] The web-only newspaper ''Uusi Suomi'' [http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/54172-johan-backman-aikoo-jattaa-tutkintapyynnon-tom-packalenista even has my photo] (second from left) on the top of [http://www.freezepage.com/1350090356LYPWUQWBOV front page.] Luckily Turkey has just captured a Syrian passenger jet with Russians aboard. Russia will be angry at Turkey for the next few days.<br />
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''Summa summarum:'' The Finnish government [http://yle.fi/uutiset/minister_clears_up_russian_media_misconceptions/6333863 lost] the [http://yle.fi/uutiset/minister_misinformation_sours_finnish-russian_relations/6332132 media war] 0-20. ''"Activists say"'' [http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/11-10-2012/122423-finland_russia-0/ rulez!] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] 12:23, 13 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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Thanks, I had no idea, and still only have some idea. Tit crisis? Not the [http://www.morningstarr.co.uk/forum/underworld/32159-tit-sucking-doctor-court-finland.html nipple-sucking Finnish doctor], I gather, but a child custody scandal (an area Russia has had some issues with, I hear), and specifically, I guess on your end, the attack on your colleague Dr. Bäckman for allegedly (per the government) misinforming the Russians. I see you there in one of those links, you handsome devil. But Finland (meaning the government?) seems to have lost? So you'll be dealing with a sore government then? Man, a whole world of things you're into I know little about - would be interested to hear more, wherever. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 19:43, 13 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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Checked one of the Saturday tabloids, it has six pages on the crisis. Also gives good advise to the Finnish government: respond quickly, make accurate information available and accessible in Russian, before "activist say" rules. Good advise for Assad government too! Will fly to Moscow tomorrow morning. Will speak with "Putin", maybe things will cool down. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] 09:37, 14 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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Lol! I think?--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 15:21, 14 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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''Continued:'' Something happens in Luxembourg. My friend explains. (I have been in Moscow for the last two days, so I have lost track of the developments.) Putin calls Merkel, puts EU-Russia negations on Syria on hold until this urgent matter is resolved. Merkel sends Finnish foreign minister Tuomioja knocking on Lavrov's door. Some settlement is reached. Backman's academic nemesis in Finland [http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/54224-tutkija-arto-luukkanen-suomi-teki-virheen-venalaisille-erityisasema-lain-edessa accuses Tuomioja] of compromising Finnish sovereignty. Tuomioja responds: [http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/54232-tuomioja-arahtaa-dosentille-taytta-roskaa Bullshit!]<br />
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Top news in Finland at the moment (most read item on the #1 newspaper site): University of Finland [http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Yliopisto+sulkee+dosentti+B%C3%A4ckmanin+s%C3%A4hk%C3%B6postin/a1305607643209 revokes] docent Bäckman's email access. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] 07:32, 17 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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''P.S.:'' ? The leading Finnish paper ''Helsingin Sanomat'' in its English language edition [http://www.hs.fi/english/article/A+Finnish+chip+on+Russia%E2%80%99s+shoulder/1329104944375 compares] the proportions of the crisis to that of the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_Crisis Note Crisis] of 1961. (Featured article on [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notenkrise German Wikipedia]!) The difference is however, that president Kekkonen would have solved this issue in half-an-hour. The "Niinistö regime" shows its total incompetence.<br />
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''P.P.S.'' ? Hmmm, this raises a question of notability: I guess having an article about you on Wikipedia does not make you notable. (About 50 of my Facebook friends have articles.) You are truly notable, when someone on Wikipedia writes a ''Featured Article'' on something you and your friends made up at your kitchen table. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] 08:14, 17 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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''P.P.P.S.'' ? Niinistö loyalist attempt to counter "Activist say" disinformation. [http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finland+addresses+Russian+misinformation+on+Finnish+child+welfare+policy/1329104938619 Quote:] ''"Meanwhile, in Moscow, Ambassador Hannu Himanen met a group of about a dozen Russian journalists at the press centre of the state-run news agency Ria Novosti."'' ? [https://twitter.com/PetriKrohn/status/257819115174121472/photo/1/large I was at the same press centre,] spoke to "about" two dozen journalists + 6 TV cameras. I wonder how many cameras he had? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] 08:45, 17 October 2012 (EST)<br />
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== Boston terrorist bombing ==<br />
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Sorry guys for ignoring you for the last few days. It looks like my [http://antifasistit.blogspot.fi/2013/04/press-release-al-qaeda-may-have.html local] [http://suomitanaan.blogspot.fi/2013/04/boston-terrorists-were-influenced-and.html terrorist] cell blew up Boston. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:52, 21 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I was curious what you and your network would have to say on this. Been following loosely. Not surprised to see a Kavkaz imprint here. Some news: Tamerlan [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312470/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Boston-bomber-thrown-mosque-raged-filled-rant-Martin-Luther-King.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490 got in a fight over a sermon at the local mosque for raging against Martin Luther King], [http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-boston-bombing-suspect-radical-fbi-20130420,0,4341067.story was an extremist], and [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/boston-parents-describe-sons-russia-trip/story-e6frg6n6-1226625591898 visited Chechnya last year]. And [http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/czech-republic-ambassador-dont-confuse-us-chechnya-131929282--abc-news-topstories.html some people are saying Chechnya is a country of its own] - in a widespread Freudian slip? Should continue to prove an interesting story, but I'll keep following only loosely. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:34, 22 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::CNN [http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/brother-religious-language/index.html beat me] to [http://antifasistit.blogspot.fi/2013/04/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-youtube-terror-video.html this.] (My network took too long in making the transcript.) I Wonder why the mainstream media never found [http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/3187191199/be65c7affe851df203c6ff22485d904d.jpeg this.] The big story may however be here: Is [http://72.8.141.86/showpost.php?s=6c9ec29ab8675beef60f588b73fa5e52&p=3413185&postcount=404 this] Tamerlan Tsarnaev? (Known as [http://www.youtube.com/user/muazseyfullah/videos?view=0 muazseyfullah] on YouTube.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Motives? ==<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013#Motives?]]''<br />
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Sorry, Petri. Someone or something is making my internet extremely slow over here today. I've been trying for an hour to just leave any comment here. Had some text I found, but it won't re-load. At this link: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/23/uk-syria-crisis-idUKBRE97K0AJ20130823 U.S. says this was "the regime acting like a regime," needs changed, end of story. We've seen it many times. Very sad. Now I have to go to work. Sorry I can't do more. Hopefully tonight, or tomorrow? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 22:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:''internet extremely slow '' – part of the information war :-( -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Could be. That's what I was sure of for a minute. Wrote that in desperation, it's better now and I onlyabout now have to go. So the quote is not there, but a Google search says it is. I saw it last night, but the story was swapped or edited to show instead Obama's renewed reticence to go to war, thank God. [http://www.ncr-iran.org/en/news/iran-world/14425-u-n-pushes-syrian-regime-to-allow-for-chemical-attack-probe This Iranian opposition page] includes it. "Reuters news agency reported on Friday that a U.S. official familiar with initial intelligence assessments said the attack appeared to be the work of the Assad government. It was "the regime acting as a regime", the official said." And "regimes" kill needlessly and get changed. So basically, the motive seems to be evil regime death wish. Assad is like the husband who beats his wife in the next room just after the cops arrive, on a domestic abuse call ''he'' first put in. Now all the wife's incoherent counter-allegations are proven, right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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By the way, Petri, why here instead of the talk page? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:I am just drafting it, but had to save it somewhere before going out. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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==Is this what you wanted?==<br />
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http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File:Al-Bayda_Shop_Sign.png<br />
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[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 20:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Al-Bayda_Shop_Sign.png&diff=6762File:Al-Bayda Shop Sign.png2013-08-29T20:05:18Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: </p>
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<div>From the door of the shop in which 20-ish bodies were laid in al-Bayda. It says "accessories" [إكسسوارات iksiswarat] and "servicing." [صيانة siyanah] Cell phones are one of the lines of work both words apply to.<br />
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[[Category:Al-Baida]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013&diff=6703Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 20132013-08-28T19:53:44Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Locations */</p>
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<div>== Planted bodies? ==<br />
Can you name the 10 reasons why I believe these bodies are planted? Do your own analysis, I do not want to (mis)guide you.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mypx96MK5N0 Entire Family Killed by Chemical Weapons attack on Damascus] – ANAChannelEng, Aug 24, 2013<br />
:''Video Description: Video portrays an a building inspection in which a number of families are found dead 36 hours after a chemical weapons attack which took place on Damascus suburbs on the 21st of August 2013 early morning time (presumed at 2:00am)''<br />
:''This video was taken in the Zamalka area of the Eastern Ghouta of Damascus suburbs.''<br />
The link comes from Matthew Asheville's blog ''Syria Analysis:''<br />
* [http://syriaanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/entire-family-allegedly-killed-by-chemical-attack-have-injuries-consistent-with-death-by-thermobaric-weapon-not-chemical-attack/ Entire Family allegedly killed by chemical attack suffered injuries consistent with death by thermobaric weapon (Eastern Ghouta)] – "9 hours ago" (August 27, 2013)<br />
Yeah, the "chemical attack" story may turn out to be bogus, but somehow you must still be able to blame "Assad". -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Thermobaric weapons make you bleed out of your head as if shot in the head? That's kind of what it looked like, shot - there - and decaying. Pretty awful. Saved a copy. Too tired to read the explanation, or make any guesses, now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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I don't know this subject, apparently. I was going to guess not FAE becuase the place is so open. But he says that helps. The bleeding could be from a pressure wave rupturing organs, with blood out the mouth. The sort of ruptured-looking mouths too are rather unusual and must have some explanation kind of like that. I wonder how much sense their positions make for being hit with that wave. I guess it was pushing straight down just like gravity? And he notes the dust in this home of so many people could be from such a wave. Or from construction, which this home is clearly under. IE, people don't live there yet, so why were all these people there? It doesn't even seem like anyone was squatting there, from what we see. So that's one reason I'd think they were planted there. <br />
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So then ... put there and then bombed? Bombed elsewhere and put here while still bleeding profusely? Or not bombed? This as far as I go now, more typing needed elsewhere. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Do Syrian sleep in winter overcoats? ==<br />
One disturbing aspect of the videos is the all the victims I have seen are fully dressed. Some, as the ones in the [[#Planted bodies?|Planted bodies?]] video, have thick, winter-type overcoats. Do Syrians sleep fully clothed?<br />
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One could try to explain this anomaly by claiming that all of Eastern Ghouta was under heavy bombardment and people had gotten dressed to seek shelter. In fact many of the Western news stories inadvertently claimed the chemical attack was preceded by shelling. I have not seen any real proof of this bombardment. It is just a word revolutionaries will repeat in every sentence. The area effected by the chemical attack is huge. Unless the whole Luftwaffe was blitzing them, the safest place for Syrians would be in their own beds. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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==Aug. 27 Gas Attack on Jobar?==<br />
[http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Activists-Assad-bombs-Damascus-in-renewed-chemical-attack-injuring-20-324508 Jerusalem Post, Aug 28]:<br />
:''Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime forces bombed the Jobar neighborhood in eastern Damascus with toxic chemicals in a mortar attack, Al Jazeera quoted activists as reporting on Wednesday.''<br />
:''The Syrian Support Group tweeted the use of poisonous gases on Free Syrian Army Soldiers, stating Assad's forces used chemical mortar shells on Tuesday against his citizens. ... Videos made by activists showed injuries from burns and people suffering from breathing difficulties. The Syrian Center for Information reported that all the victims are students.''<br />
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== Alleged Proofs of Government Guilt ==<br />
Okay, sure, [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013#Government|there's no logic to it]]. But socialist-leaning secular Arab dictators who oppose Israel don't need logic. They just force us to destroy them and we destroy them. It's a basic pattern of nature we're as familiar with as the changing seasons. And of course, there's "mounting" evidence, some call it proof, to prove Assad or a general or anyone but the rebels is responsible. And of course you need good evidence when you're making a case with no logic behind it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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=== The Phone Call ===<br />
The intercepted call between Syrians said to prove the attack was first spoken of by a former Israeli Mossad agent and run in the German media. <br />
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U.S. Foreign Policy magazine ran a detailed and widely cited piece about it on August 27/28, a week after the attacks: Exclusive: Intercepted Calls Prove Syrian Army Used Nerve Gas, U.S. Spies Say: The conversation is "the major reason why American officials now say they're certain that the attacks were the work of the Bashar al-Assad regime -- and why the U.S. military is likely to attack that regime in a matter of days." So just what was it? As they report:<br />
:''Last Wednesday, in the hours after a horrific chemical attack east of Damascus, an official at the Syrian Ministry of Defense exchanged panicked phone calls with a leader of a chemical weapons unit, demanding answers for a nerve agent strike that killed more than 1,000 people. Those conversations were overheard by U.S. intelligence services, The Cable has learned.''<ref name="FP">[http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/08/27/exclusive_us_spies_say_intercepted_calls_prove_syrias_army_used_nerve_gas Exclusive: Intercepted Calls Prove Syrian Army Used Nerve Gas, U.S. Spies Say] By Noah Shachtman, Foreign Policy magazine, the Wire, August 28, 2013</ref><br />
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First, I'm not certain there even is a "chemical defense unit." But let's say there is, it's the basis of this whole exercise. <br />
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Why is the caller panicked and asking questions? Panic suggests sudden realization, questions a lack of knowledge. If it was an order from the government, wouldn't he know about it? Perhaps not. That seems to be one of the questions:<br />
:''the intercept raises questions about culpability for the chemical massacre, even as it answers others: Was the attack on Aug. 21 the work of a Syrian officer overstepping his bounds? Or was the strike explicitly directed by senior members of the Assad regime? "It's unclear where control lies," one U.S. intelligence official told The Cable. "Is there just some sort of general blessing to use these things? Or are there explicit orders for each attack?"'' <ref name="FP" /><br />
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Most important: '''the response is not specified. Why?''' If he said something like "yes sir, we gassed the rats, on orders from xxx," that would be included. They wouldn't say a guy called and asked, they'd say when he did that, he got confirmation, and they would be quoting it in exact translated words. It'd be in bold headlines '''"WE GASSED THE RATS."''' Conversely, if the response was negative, or just as surprised to even hear such a thing was reported, wouldn't that mean the government probably didn't do it? How many other types of response are there? Those are mainly it, and it seems more likely to have been the latter, since they were too embarrassed to include it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
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Another possible issue, as [http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/uss-proof-syrian-army-chemical-attack-intercepted-call/68800/ the Atlantic Wire points out], is that the original source for the recording is a little unclear:<br />
:''the German magazine Focus spoke to an anonymous Israeli intelligence official, who claims that the intercepted phone call comes from intelligence gathered by one of their elite units. Foreign Policy, however, specifies that U.S. intelligence overheard the call.''<br />
::Neither claims to be borrowing a copy of the others' recording. Perhaps they both overheard it? I don't see why not. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
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Possibilities:<br />
* Completely faked call: from the description so far and lack of clarity, it sounds unlikely to have been faked. This makes the commcenter in Qaboun possibly irrelevant as a clue - that would best help with placing a fake call and making it look real. <br />
* Real official, saboteur intent: A secret defector and total backstabber, he was paid to place a call that looks really suspicious. Perhaps why he, but not the guy answering, gets cited. However, you'd think he'd work in a really doomy and damning line worth a direct quote, if so. And that would probably be mentioned, which it wasn't. <br />
* Real official, double-checking, got no clear answer or even a denial: intel officials are twisting and essentially lying about the content, perhaps to let the president make his saber-rattling intimidation dance. <br />
* Real call, with a response that really did confirm the attack, and that just wasn't mentioned in the articles so far, for some reason. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
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:: FOCUS is a miserable rag and the rest of the German media didn't run with the story. I think this is just part of bigmouth back-pedalling. T'wasn't the ebil Assad, just some rogue element, bla bla. I still think this is all just saber-rattling. UK is now presenting a UN resolution - didn't they say just yesterday that they don't need one? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Could be. I don't think it taints the story enough though. I could be wrong, but I tend to think the recording really does exist. Notes below. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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My further thoughts: I'm going with roughly the third option. I guess how they're presented makes that fairly clear. Reasons: I imagine a lot of communications are intercepted in this day and age. I don't know the details, but ... lots to comb through. It would be foolhardy to make up such a thing and be caught unable to prove it if that became important. And if you faked it, it would be something better than an unanswered panicked question, following panic-inducing global rumors of an action that threatened the nation's undoing. What I think is that the West will try to not release the call, because it will become clearer that the context was badly distorted. And it will dawn on a few people that there's a lot to comb through, they probably combed hard, and this is the best they could find. Conclusion: there was no order, likely no such action. Should shrivel next to the Russian satellite video, if such a thing existed. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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Put simply, then: Alleged Proof = A dude was nervous. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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===Other===<br />
Is there other? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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== Sources ==<br />
* Suspiciously swift opposition activist blog, bound to have accusations, news, clues, etc: http://www.facebook.com/ChemicalMassacre21082013 --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/1kry33/live_thread_stream_of_videos_coming_out_of/ Reddit page with collection of sources] posted early on before it made the rounds (14 hours before my post here which means around 2-3 AM UTC). First sentence: "I've spoken with the Associated Press, BBC and CNN; BBC and AP are here on this thread, using it to source information for a possible story." --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 16:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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* Al Arabiya seems to have been one of the first big ones to pick it up - First tweet announcing 280 dead [https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/370041481072869376 here] at 5:35 AM UTC. In the comments already the reddit guy linking to the thread above. 5:59 AM UTC, a [https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/370047549287043073 second tweet] with now 500 dead. Around an hour later, the first version of an article is [https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/370061486862770176 announced]. That [http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/08/21/Syrian-activists-at-least-500-killed-in-chemical-attack-on-Eastern-Ghouta.html article] still says 500 in the link but now headlines 1300 dead. It's a patchwork of all kinds of "reactions" and "statements" thanks to apparently many edits. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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* [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/21/us-syria-crisis-gas-idUSBRE97K07O20130821 Activists say more than 200 killed in gas attack near Damascus] – Reuters, Aug 21, 2013 6:05am EDT<br />
:''Activists said rockets with chemical agents hit the Damascus suburbs of '''Ain Tarma''', '''Zamalka''' and '''Jobar''' before dawn.<br />
:''A nurse at Douma Emergency Collection facility, Bayan Baker, said the death toll, as collated from medical centers in the suburbs east of Damascus, was 213.''<br />
:''"Many of the casualties are women and children. They arrived with their pupil dilated, cold limbs and foam in their mouths. The doctors say these are typical symptoms of nerve gas victims," the nurse said.'<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=410503662391311&set=a.150495128392167.28686.121855461256134&type=1 SOHR Facebook, statement]<br />
:This takes as a given this a "regime" crime, based simply on reports (words) from people whose job it is to always say that. "The SOHR repeats the urgent call on the entire international community, in all its institutions, to put pressure on the Syrian regime to cease its attack on these areas, and to alleviate the ordinary civilians from the deadly consequences of its war." Some good comments, one by me anyway. <br />
::''When will the SOHR explain how it knows this massacre was "committed by the regime?" I'm presuming some toxic gasses were widely used in this rebel-infested area. As the timing and nature of this planned attack only suit the rebel cause, not the government's, the leap to the less logical presumption requires some explanation. Is it just that rebels said it was the other side? That's my suspicion. I'm presuming about 99% of rebels are innocent of this, but did they check with the local units of ISIS, al-Nusra, etc. - known to possess and use CW - and honestly rule out all provocateurs with an interest in false-flagging themselves into power? Why on earth would do that? So it must be the regime machine-gunning itself in the foot, gassing more people than ever just ten feet from the "inspectors" (investigators, actually)'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://observers.france24.com/content/20130822-chemical-weapons-claims-syrian-activists Chemical weapon claims: Two Syrian activists’ diverging viewpoints] – France24, August 22, 2013 <br />
:''Early on Wednesday, several rebel-held villages in the eastern suburbs of Damascus were '''heavily bombarded''' by the Syrian army. Activists from this village have accused the Syrian regime of using chemical weapons during this operation.''<ref name="ODV">[http://observers.france24.com/content/20130822-chemical-weapons-claims-syrian-activists Chemical weapon claims: Two Syrian activists’ diverging viewpoints] France24, August 22, 2013</ref><br />
::Good source and add, thanks. Worth a ref add. Half-skeptical, half-telling. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/22/why-syria-chemicalweaponsclaimsareunlikelytopromptusintervention.html Syria sarin claims unlikely to spur US military action] – Al Jazeera, August 22, 2013<br />
<br />
===Skeptical Sources===<br />
* Penny for Your Thoughts (truth exists; only lies are invented): [http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/chemical-attack-conveniently-staged-and.html "Chemical attack" conveniently staged and timed in Syria. Planned Staged Psy-op.]--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Hot Air.com: [http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/21/syrian-rebels-claim-assad-used-chemical-weapons-over-100-dead/ Syrian rebels claim Assad used chemical weapons, over 1000 dead] - but skepticism is still allowed. Some reasonable starter questions here. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/world/middleeast/syria.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&smid=tw-share&&pagewanted=all Images of Death in Syria, but No Proof of Chemical Attack], NYT, August 21, 2013. This is a much more level-headed article than I would have expected from the NYT so credit where credit is due and I put it here under "skeptical sources". Also a good summary. Interesting detail:<br />
:''At least [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=648713875152576&amp;set=a.228986480458653.65498.225790024111632&amp;type=1 one photograph] posted on Facebook by an activist showed what looked like a makeshift rocket. But loyalist militias and Hezbollah have both fired makeshift rockets at rebel positions in this war, and could presumably be suspects for any attacks with improvised rockets on rebel-controlled neighborhoods.''<br />
:--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/21/expert-casts-doubt-on-chemical-weapons-footage-from-syria/ Expert casts doubt on Syria chemical weapons footage] – Euronews, 21 August, 2013 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4GHMqONMo video])<br />
* [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-evidence-of-chemical-attack-seems-compelling--but-remember--theres-a-propaganda-war-on-8778918.html The evidence of chemical attack seems compelling – but remember - there’s a propaganda war on] – Patrick Cockburn / ''The Independent'', 21 August 2013<br />
* [http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/500506/20130821/syria-chemical-attack-accident-caused-free-syrian.htm Syria: Chemical Attack in Ghouta 'an Accident Caused by Free Syrian Army'] – GIANLUCA MEZZOFIORE / ''International Business Times'', August 21, 2013<br />
:''He added that the idea that the FSA is single and unified is "a myth," because "there are different factions and something like that could be a win/win for them: launch the attack and raise amount of profile of their cause by the UN."''<br />
::Sorry, timing, nature, etc. considered, accident is almost as stupid as the official story. Well, at about the mid-point between the extremes of plausibility we're faced with. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Kris Janssen, Media Work Group Syria, Aug 28: [http://mediawerkgroepsyrie.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/another-false-flag-operation-history-repeating-itself/ Another false flag operation, history repeating itself] --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== "Rebels did it" ===<br />
Obama [http://rt.com/usa/obama-chemical-weapons-syria-915/ seems] to be accusing al Qaeda for the attack:<br />
* [http://www.democracynow.org/2013/8/23/syrian_activist_on_ghouta_attack_i Syrian Activist on Ghouta Attack: "I Haven’t Seen Such Death in My Whole Life"] – ''DemocracyNow!'', August 23, 2013<br />
::''P.S.'' – Why did the ''New York Times'' chose to publish [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/world/middleeast/american-tells-of-odyssey-as-prisoner-of-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all this] today? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/23/syrias-al-ghouta-crime-the-real-story-of-liwaa-al-islam-chemical-rockets/ Syria’s Al-Ghouta Crime: The Real Story of Liwaa al-Islam Chemical Rockets] – Islamic Invitation Turkey, 23 August 2013 (Evidently translated from Arabic, no source given.)<br />
:''Why were the Europeans and Americans hesitant to take an action against Syria in the United Nations Security Council, in the alleged Syrian use of chemical weapons in Ghouta? Arab sources suggest that the US and Western missions had received the real story of chemical weapons. The story wasn’t officially distributed, but it is supported by Russian documents and satellite images of the battlefield, and Ghouta.''<br />
:''The images showed that the rockets were launched from Duma at 1:35 on Wednesday.''<br />
<br />
=== Facebook pages ===<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/ChemicalMassacre21082013?hc_location=stream مجزرة الكيماوي Chemical Massacre Syria] – 4,205 likes<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/CWMassacre.Syria Chemical Massacre in Syria - Massacre Chimique en Syrie] – 3,141 likes<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/aqpress.office AQ PRESS] (Al Queda Press Office) – 280 likes (This is not really related, but I will save the link here, as liking it on Facebook may not be a good idea. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC))<br />
<br />
=== Victims ===<br />
* [http://www.msf.org/article/syria-thousands-suffering-neurotoxic-symptoms-treated-hospitals-supported-msf Syria: Thousands suffering neurotoxic symptoms treated in hospitals supported by MSF] – Médecins Sans Frontières, 24 August 2013<br />
:''Three hospitals in Syria's Damascus governorate that are supported by the international medical humanitarian organisation Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) have reported to MSF that they received approximately 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in less than three hours on the morning of Wednesday, August 21, 2013. Of those patients, 355 reportedly died.''<br />
:''“Medical staff working in these facilities provided detailed information to MSF doctors regarding large numbers of patients arriving with symptoms including convulsions, excess saliva, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision and respiratory distress,” said Dr Bart Janssens, MSF director of operations.''<br />
:''Patients were treated using MSF-supplied atropine, a drug used to treat neurotoxic symptoms. MSF is now trying to replenish the facilities’ empty stocks and provide additional medical supplies and guidance.''<br />
:''“MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterised by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”''<br />
If 355 died at the hospital, it is conceivable there are another 1000 dead at the attack sites. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds compelling, but ... how do you get that many exposed, really? They have no people of their own -"reported symptoms," like the rest of us are getting - rebel doctor reports. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== 2011 ===<br />
* [http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-25/military-intervention-syria-us-training-rebels-2011-and-complete-grand-plan-march-20 "Military Intervention In Syria", US Training "Rebels" Since 2011 And The Complete Grand Plan - The March 2012 Leak] – Stratfor via Wikileaks<br />
:''They dont believe air intervention would happen unless there was enough media attention on a massacre, like the Ghadafi move against Benghazi.''<br />
<br />
=== "Assad did it" ===<br />
* [http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/chemical-attack-spurs-finger-pointing-inside-assad-regime Syrian chemical attack spurs finger-pointing inside Assad regime] – Phil Sands / ''The National'', Aug 26, 2013<br />
Interesting read, but the article does not contain a single verified fact. I prime example of how to construct "truth" from assorted half-truths and heresy. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Intercepted phone call sources (to move)<br />
* [http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/krise-in-der-arabischen-welt/syrien/bundeskanzlerin-im-focus-interview-giftgasmassaker-in-syrien-merkel-fordert-zugang-fuer-un-inspekteure_aid_1080416.html Giftgasmassaker in Syrien: Merkel fordert Zugang für UN-Inspekteure]<br />
:''Der Giftgaseinsatz in Syrien mit mehr als 1300 Toten sorgt weltweit für Entsetzen – auch weil viele Kinder unter den Opfern sein sollen. Der israelische Geheimdienst macht Präsident Assad für das Massaker verantwortlich. Kanzlerin Merkel drängt im FOCUS-Interview auf eine rasche Aufklärung. Doch nichts geht ohne Moskau und Peking.''<br />
* [http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/25/israeli-intelligence-ties-syrian-gas-attack-to-assad/ Israeli intelligence ties Syrian gas attack to Assad] – Focus Online, 24.08.2013<br />
:''Israeli intelligence can tie the recent gas attack against the Syrian rebels to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime, the German publication Focus reports.''<br />
:''“According to the findings of Israeli intelligence community, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is responsible for the gas attack in Damascus,” reports the publication.''<br />
:''According to FOCUS, the Israel Defense Forces Unit 8200, the IDF’s signals intelligence unit, intercepted communications of the Syrian army during the attack.''<br />
* [http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/08/26/german-report-that-israels-nsa-affirms-syria-government-responsibility-for-chemical-attacks/ German Report That Israel’s NSA Affirms Syria Government Responsibility for Chemical Attacks] – RICHARD SILVERSTEIN, August 26, 2013<br />
:''The German weekly, Focus, is reporting that a “former Mossad officer” tells them that IDF Unit 8200 (Israel’s NSA) has intercepted Syrian government communications that confirms Assad’s responsibility for the recent chemical gas attack on a Damascus suburb that left more than 1,000 civilians, including many children, dead.''<br />
<br />
Now in English:<br />
* [http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/08/27/exclusive_us_spies_say_intercepted_calls_prove_syrias_army_used_nerve_gas Exclusive: Intercepted Calls Prove Syrian Army Used Nerve Gas, U.S. Spies Say] – Noah Shachtman / ''Foreign Policy'', August 27, 2013<br />
<br />
== What is the chemical agent? ==<br />
=== Not sarin? ===<br />
Médecins Sans Frontières claims that the cause of death is nerve agents. (See [[#Victims|Victims]] above.) Others disagree.<br />
* If it isn’t Sarin, what is it? ([http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/If-not-Sarin_then-what.pdf dead link]) – Background paper by Dan Kaszeta, 23 August 2013 <br />
**[http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf Revision August 26: PDF]<br />
:''The number of people affected indicates to me that whatever toxic substance was used, a large volume of material is needed. Whatever this was, there was a lot of it.''<br />
:''There is still no firm, conclusive evidence as to what the exact method of dissemination was responsible for dispersal of the mystery toxic substance. Was it rockets, missile warheads, artillery shells, mortar shells, a chemical tanker, aerial spray, aerial bomb, or some other means? Was it a mysterious wall of gas that drifted into the area?''<br />
<br />
The Jobar Medical Point doctor [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc explains] that people died because they sought sheller in cellars. (Was this because of simultaneous shelling?) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Creepy. He might be looking at real symptoms and offering an explanation that fits. What fired-outside rocket pours enough gas to seep into enough cellars to kill 1,000 or even 500, unless they were all crammed in a few well-placed cellars near the impact? I'm remembering the basement "shelters" people were massacred in in Daraya, vs. the basement shelters rebels had forced people into to protect them from shelling or massacres (see [[Daraya massacre#"Shelter" Captives and Basement Victims|here]]). See especially the last paragraph I just added. If there's sex segregation in the dead, ask why. If they were split up before death, get a chill. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More to the point, "What is the chemical agent?" I don't know. But a heavy gas creeping low, sinking into basements and trenches, sounds like chlorine as WWI saw it, for one possibility. If this description is even acurate. He says the gas is heavy, he might know his gasses. As noted around, it doesn't seem to be a persistent chemical like sarin, properly deployed in a pro manner; as with Khan al-Assal, first responders aren't protected and suffer no ill effects. Maybe different chemicals were used in different areas under different conditions, so no one answer will cover it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Studying symptoms would help, as long as non-fake videos are looked at. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDb0fI_pwE This one] seems completely real to me and fairly distressing (I've only watched a handful of videos so far). And FWIW, it seems to be a family together, not split up like prisoners. At least in this case. Not clear where this is. They ''say'' there's myosis, sarin-type pupil constriction. That's not in this video, but must be around. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
PDF: ''If it isn’t Sarin, what is it?'' Dan Kaszeta, Aug. 23 [http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf Revision August 26: ]<br />
:''Many of the principal indicators of nerve agent poisoning are not widespread or are present in confusing manners:''<br />
:''a. Some victims appear to have miosis (pinpointed pupils), but some of them are clearly having a bright light shined in their eyes. Some of the supposed examples are not pronounced.''<br />
Etc... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The link above is dead. Kaszeta published a revised version of the PDF today, which is [http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf here]. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 17:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===FSA: Sarin, Ammonia, and "SC3"===<br />
One thing it probably wasn't is what an FSA spokesman said they believed it was. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/23/us-syria-chemicals-idUSBRE97M0U820130823 A Reuters report said]:<br />
:''“Not all of the missiles appeared to have carried chemical warheads, the FSA spokesman said, but those that did were suspected to have contained sarin, a Russian made nerve agent called SC3 and liquid ammonia supplied by Iran.” ''<br />
This chemical cocktail is geopolitically useful, implicating three bad guy nations in this attack on Sunni freedom activists. Likely Hexbollah provided the launchers or some other crucial element. But CRBN expert Dan Kaszeta (report, see above for latest version) finds the claim "suspect" and even "nonsensical" and "perverse." (see pp. 6-7) The deadly agent, carefully acquired and loaded, would be rendered inert by ammonia, he says; "'''Liquid ammonia will inactivate Sarin''' within seconds or minutes depending on the concentration." This combination would then be about as effective as putting neither chemical in. But then, you can't say the nothing was partly supplied by Iran, and this is a more sinister explanation for why the sarin won't show up in tests; "it was there to start with - they did this to hide it." As for the Russian chemical SC3, Kaszeta never heard of it. It could be a mistranslation, or someone else's name, but the Russians wouldn't call it SC3, he says, as C and S are the same letter in their alphabet. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Thermobaric weapon? ===<br />
This disciple of Brown Moses speculates that the weapon used is a thermobaric weapon.<br />
* [http://syriaanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/10/ Evidence at least part of Aug. 21st munitions were fuel air explosives, not chemical warfare munitions] – Matthew Asheville, "4 days ago"<br />
I too have speculated that Moses' mystery rocket is thermobaric. I am also not convinced it the rockets have anything to do with the alleged attack. One thing I am certain about: this piece is bollocks. Thermobaric weapons have nothing to do with hundreds of dead and dying children suddenly appearing outside MSF / FSA run hospitals, seemingly out of nowhere. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More thermobaric speculation: -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/08/25/preliminary-analysis-of-alleged-cw-munitions-used-in-syria/ Preliminary analysis of alleged CW munitions used in Syria] – N.R. Jenzen-Jones, August 25, 2013<br />
<br />
==Delivery system? ==<br />
=== BM-14 type 140mm rocket? ===<br />
The UN is studying the remnants of a Soviet 140mm BM-14 type artillery rocket of a type that can carry a 2,2 kg sarin payload. The fact that the rocket part is still intact points to no explosive warhead being used. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/were-un-inspectors-examining-chemical.html Were The UN Inspectors Examining A Chemical Weapon In Medmah Al Sham?] – Brown Moses, August 27, 2013<br />
<br />
=== Mortar rounds? ===<br />
The cheapest and most effective way would be to just pack the CW in mortar rounds. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.4thmedia.org/2013/08/28/new-york-times-attempts-to-bolster-kerrys-baseless-claim-that-syrian-government-used-chemical-weapons-on-their-own-people/ New York Times Bolster Kerry’s Baseless Claim That the Syrian Government Used Chemical Weapons on Their Own People] – The 4th Media, August 28, 2013<br />
<br />
== Russian satellite images? ==<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLeND1NURI Syrian Activist: Satellite imagery proves Syrian chemical weapons attack staged by rebels] – corbettreport, Aug 27, 2013<br />
:''Ayssar Midani, a French Syrian citizen and political activist, joins us from Damascus to talk about the latest developments in Syria. We talk about the history of the terrorist jihadi insurgency in the country and their prior use of chemical weapons, the latest attack and claims of satellite evidence proving that the attack was not launched by government officials, and the likely consequences of a US-led strike on the country.''<br />
<br />
[http://www.moonofalabama.org/2013/08/syria-the-most-popular-list.html Moon of Alabama] comment, Rowan Berkeley, #23, Description of a description of something reportedly amazing:<br />
:''This is out from behind the paywall, and I’ve watched it now. It isn’t on YouTube yet. But in fact it does not contain anything radically new. She names the local Jabhat al-Nusra commander, Sheikh Zahran Abdullah Alloush, as having ordered the firing of the two rockets with chemical warheads. In fact, Alloush is the commander of the Liwa al-Islam Brigade, based in Duma. He is a well-known and documented figure. She says '''the satellite imagery actually shows the rockets being fired, travelling and reaching their targets''', and that it has been given by Vitaly Churkin to the UNSC. She does not say whether satellite telephone communications from or to Alloush substantiating the claim were intercepted. The video evidence (and audio evidence, if there is any) has not been released publicly, and this is a typically Russian authoritarian mistake. They will not comprehend the fact that the world public has to be treated as an equal interlocutor in emergencies, not an object to be manipulated by competing rulers. There is nothing else of importance in this video, though of course it is all very interesting.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:You know, with a few minutes to sit on this notion, it does not sound right. This is satellite video that she describes, real time and discernable like a security camera video. Isn't that totally not how it normally works? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:42, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::This is very fifth hand information but contains important names and leads, at least for further Google searches. I was expecting all of this to have been reported elsewhere. I wonder why no-one has linked to it. Listening more closely, it may be that Ayssar Midani bases her information on the satellite images on what is reported by [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/23/syrias-al-ghouta-crime-the-real-story-of-liwaa-al-islam-chemical-rockets/ Islamic Invitation.] There was a more reliable source for this content, evidently translated from Arabic, but I cannot find it now. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: She says one rocket landed in Jobar and one in Muadamye, IIT says one landed in Jobar and one between Irbin and Zamalka. Differences in details. As to the satellite images and CL's question if that "isn't totally not how it works" - isn't it? Don't they have real time satellite images flow in very small intervals if not outright video these days? I don't know but I suspect they have. If so, the US of course have them as well. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 16:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Also, Duma and Harasta are known for some of the most heinous terror gangs around, remember those corpses they used in several states of decay for new "massacre marketing"? urs has followed their videos with extreme disgust, I recall. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 16:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What's Up With Jobar?==<br />
===Rebel CW Factory Busted?===<br />
[[File:Jobar chemical storehouse.jpg|thumb|Chemical bags from Saudi Arabia lying next to ammunition boxes]]<br />
* Islamic Invitation Turkey: [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/23/syrian-rebels-damascus-chemical-cache-found-by-syrian-army/ Syrian rebels’ Damascus chemical cache found by Syrian Army]<br />
:''The Syrian army has discovered a storehouse belonging to rebels in the Damascus area of Jobar, where toxic chemical substances – including chlorine – have been produced and kept, State TV reported. Military sources reported that the militants “were preparing to fire mortars in the suburbs of the capital and were going to pack missiles with chemical warheads.” A video shot by RT’s sister channel Russia Al Youm shows an old, partly ruined building which was set up as a laboratory. After entering the building, Syrian Army officers found scores of canisters and bags laid on the floor and tables. According to a warning sign on the bags, the “corrosive” substance was made in Saudi Arabia''<br />
<br />
Original source:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXezs1YY01I Toxic Catch: Syria rebels' chemical lab uncovered near Damascus] – RT, Jul 14, 2013<br />
<br />
:They made it sound like a new story. It did sound familiar, but I didn't know that catch well enough to recognize it. So, less relevant, but a point for overall intent and a bit of de-bunking a sort-of false story. By the way I think my glitch is solved (the damn router), with some hours to spare before I crash. Will FINALLY see what I can do here.<br />
<br />
::''Islamic Invitation Turkey'' is mainly recycled crap.<br />
::''P.S.'' – I did not recognize the story or the photo either. It was Google Image Search again that saved the day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Jobar Attack or Not?===<br />
:Possibly relevant: wasn't Jobar almost the only suburb ''not'' reported as effected yesterday? Anyway, no proof this is "the" cache responsible for anything in particular, but a cache, suggesting intent, and intent some of them have [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/01/02/us-backed-terrorists-renew-threat-to-use-chemical-arms-against-syrians-and-damascus-govt/ allegedly] been talking about, practicing for, and implementing lately. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: Jobar wasn't prominently mentioned in the later news, but the very early reddit thread interestingly enough linked (exclusively) to two distinct wikimapia places in Jobar, see what I wrote a bit below under "Videos" about the different locations. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: ANNA News has been in Jobar on the day starting at 7:20 AM, filming the army offensive. In their video report which was now [http://apxwn.blogspot.de/2013/08/anna-news-im-c-waffen-freien-dschobar.html translated into German] they state about the CW campaign in the media that "in the first hours, if out of stupidity or desperation, Jobar gets named as the area where the chemicals have been used". And the translator links to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc this video statement]. Remarkably, all the maps created later don't mark Jobar as a target, and if one compares what's shown in the video (battlefield reduced to ruins), that's certainly not where the "doctor" is talking from. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 22:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::: Following the usual chain, syrianews.cc [http://www.syrianews.cc/syria-anna-news-jobar-chemical-weapons/ has translated] the German translation into English and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srmvYhUY6Z8 the ANNA report] has English subtitles now. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::The video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc A statement from Jobar's Medical Point regarding the chemical attack] "The front of Ain Tarma and Jobar in Eastern Ghouta was bombarded with chemical weapons. We noted the incident early, thankfully. We put ourselves on the highest alert." Mentions (rebel) "medical point" responses (since you can't trust regular Syrian medical staff to properly handle a "regime attack") -Zamalka, Douma, and Deir al-Asafir are mentioned. The casualties in Jobar were "massive." "We exhausted our supplies of atropine and hydrocortisone in Jobar." The 25,000 ampules were from there, all used up, he says on people there and I guess in Ain Tarma. He's been counting a lot that morning, thousands of different items already used up, and the sun's still not up (or is this from later on the 21st, or a dark basement?). He's very matter of fact, but clearly agitated, I guess, from how he sort of moves around and makes excited big eyes on a regular basis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
:::::Video too long. Watching more now, at about 3:45, as he explains the mistakes people made putting themselves in basements, also some people started fires, I guess to keep warm in the August chill, leading to "undesired consequences." Especially so, those people who ''burned tires,'' mixing the gas fumes with "fires and burning tires," "putting tires on fire added insult to injury," especially for his responders, some of who died from all this, leading him to sob. He suggests an education campaign to tell people go upstairs and don'tburn tires when there's a gas attack. <br />
<br />
This is fascinating. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's a clue. I added Jobar, note, and link, to the front page intro. Jobar was attacked, no it wasn't, don't mention that place. Oops. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.538247&lon=36.366634&z=13&m=b Jobar on Wikimapia], for reference. I wasn't certain. Northeast Damascus, next to and just more central than the (alleged) stricken areas of east Ghouta. Too far to have easily hit Mouadamiya, if that even happened. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Rebel CW Tunnels Found?===<br />
Rinse and repeat, or something new? <br />
* [http://rt.com/news/rebel-tunnel-damascus-chemical-940/ Syrian soldiers find chemical agents in rebel tunnels near Damascus- state TV], August 24. The photo is from July 14. The story again cites Jobar. It says:<br />
:''Syrian army soldiers have found chemical agents when they entered rebel tunnels in Damascus suburb of Jobar, Syrian TV reports, adding that some of them started suffocating. Soldiers "entered the terrorists’ tunnels and saw chemical agents," state television quoted a "news source" as saying. "In some cases, soldiers started suffocating while entering Jobar," it said. "Ambulances came to rescue the people who were suffocating," it added. ''--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: This is new, [http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/syrian-army-finds-chemical-agents-rebel-hideout-state-tv also reported] by Al-Akhbar based on a Reuters item. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 12:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Did not take long to find this. Went to Google news search, it was the top story.[http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/24/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE97K0EL20130824 Syrian soldiers see chemical agents in rebel tunnels: state TV]. Next, the State TV report which should have images. Relation to recent events will remain uncertain, but worth knowing, obviously. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The relation to recent events is indirect: both are related to the SAA operation to retake the Eastern Ghouta. If Syria had some information that the rockets were launched from Jobar they might concentrate their operations there, in order to secure the launch site and possibly recover some of the hardware. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The footage from the "chemical warehouse" comes from [http://www.youtube.com/user/newsanna/videos ANNA News.] The original HD footage is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ehDWgEL-GI here.] I cannot see any proof for anything here. Yes, they have gas masks and atropine ampules, but that implicates Assad as much as anyone else. ("They knew Assad would gas them.") The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc&t=1m03s pro-rebel doctor] says he had 25,000 ampules of atropine he distributed. The chemicals could as well be used for producing explosives – or rocket fuel. The only thing I find sinister in the video is the steel cylinder in the very end, that seems to have distinctive nozzles of a Qassam rocket drilled into its boilerplate end. (Also seen at the end of [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712684592090826 this] video. [http://www.vatsaas.org/rtv/misc/aftclosure.aspx Earlier models] had real nozzles, but late models economized and [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3702088.stm simply drilled] the nozzles into a thick block of steel.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: "In addition to 1,600 vials of atropine supplied over recent months, MSF has now dispatched 7,000 additional vials to facilities in the area." - You linked that earlier at [http://www.msf.org/article/syria-thousands-suffering-neurotoxic-symptoms-treated-hospitals-supported-msf medicins sans frontiers]. The number of 25+ thousand seems to be far too high to be realistic. On the other hand, a new RIA Novosti item I can't find at the English version says in German that [http://de.rian.ru/security_and_military/20130824/266728540.html a large stock of anti-CW medicines was found at Jobar] - and it also referrs to the earlier news of "C-weapons stocks" found in the area. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:CW 8 21 Jobar Cache 1.png|right|260px]]<br />
Weapons non-expert, but what I think we see is several explosives-production elements here, plus chemicals (which?) and gear to prepare protect for exposure on your end. So it's not proof but fairly damning when the government has no motive and no proof, and the rebels have plenty motive and this. 1:44 in the ANNA video -aren't those electrical detonators/blasting caps/whatever? (three prepared) 1:38 (see right), several expendable metal canisters ready to be filled with .... fuel? A propane tank that can be filled with whatever and fired froma "Hell cannon." Grenades, old and white (?) Terrorist workshop, in my opinion, with chemical concerns.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Terrorist workshop"? More like freedom fighter workshop! :-)<br />
::I agree it is more likely rebels poses protective gear because of their own CW plans than because of a fear of SAA use of CW. This will however prove nothing to the general public, and even less prevent WWIII from starting on Tuesday. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Agreed on the last, meant to say that. It seems to ''us'' the rebels, not Syria, have been doing the gassing, so the gear is clearly to protect themselves from themselves and their colleagues. But to most people, it will be seen as at best "not proving anything" or showing their fear of regime gassing.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://sana.sy/eng/337/2013/08/24/498890.htm SANA report with nice clear photos]. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
[http://www.breakingnews.sy/article_en.php?id=24079 Breaking News.Sy] says 40 soldiers were left gasping in Jobar when a chemical rocket was fired at them. Possibly the same story, two versions. Also they say a Russian news crew arriving there was shot at, no injuries.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Videos ==<br />
[[File:Kafr Batna children.jpg|thumb|Screenshot from Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee video showing victims of chemical weapons attack]]<br />
My YouTube playlist:<br />
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUFEgCRhTevaLEr2inzR7jZM<br />
Brown Moses has a list with 120 videos.<br />
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T4NORTjYmPoNCHn2vCByvYG<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The earliest original videos seem to be coming from the Kvrbtna Coordinating Committee (تنسيقية كفربطنا):<br />
* http://www.youtube.com/user/syriafredoom/videos<br />
I have no idea where "Kvrbtna" is, but searching for the word [https://www.google.com/search?q=كفربطنا& in Arabic] only brings up massacre pictures and videos. (The logo on the videos says it is ''Kafar Batna City''.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Kafar Batna is [http://wikimapia.org/13898147/Kafar-Batna here] on the southern outskirts of Irbin (there's a "Al Fateh Hospital" central in the markation). The [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.529805&lon=36.336937&z=13&m=b&tag=516 two] [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.530592&lon=36.340542&z=14&m=b&tag=516 places] given by the reddit collection are at least two kilometers north-west of that in Jobar. The mentioned [http://wikimapia.org/1799110/Ain-Terma Ain Terma] and [http://wikimapia.org/22517314/Zamalka Zamalka] are in between.--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 20:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Excellent start here, Petri, thanks. No time left today. 120 videos? Will not be watching most of those. More soon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/08/visual-evidence-syrias-poison-gas-attack-overwhelming-and-disturbing/68586/ The Visual Evidence of a Chemical Attack in Syria Is Overwhelming and Disturbing] – Dashiell Bennett / ''The Atlantic Wire'', August 21, 2013<br />
:''The government has officially denied using any such weapons, but the United Nations inspection team that arrived in the country on Sunday (to investigate previous claims of chemical weapon attacks) has been denied access to the site. As a result, the images below are the only evidence we have of the devastation — and there is a lot of evidence.''<br />
<br />
== Video analysis ==<br />
<br />
=== Amer mosa video ===<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUGrW-SjjbU first video] on the Brown Moses list is one that allegedly shows the nighttime launching of the chemical rockets on Eastern Ghouta. When I order my list by publication time, it turns out to be the earliest video on my list. YouTube metadata API [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/GUGrW-SjjbU says] the video was published 2013-08-21T01:09:55.000Z – that is 4 am in Syria.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUGrW-SjjbU لحظة اطلاق الصواريخ المحملة بلرؤؤس الكمياوية على الغوطة الشرقية حسبي الله ونعم الوكيل فيك يا بشار] (The moment of firing rockets charged chemical Ppleras on East Gouta God and yes you, O Bashar agent)<br />
*:Note the typo in the word ''chemical'' (الكمياوية) in the title, on Google it show all copies.<br />
The video is by someone who calls himself [http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4KAY_VfGH0StTflp8aTALA amer mosa.] He has four videos on his account, all uploaded within the last week. The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVH6jUX5vlU first] is some Islamist chant or prayer. The second shows a rebel group capture a huge cache of 9K38 Igla anti-aircraft missiles.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q90dw3pxn1s اليكم الدليل إغتنام صواريخ حرارية مضادة للطيران من اللواء 38 في درعا يتسأل الشهيد الذي قصفه الطيران] (Directory you seize the anti-thermal rockets from General Aviation 38 in Daraa Atsal the martyr who bombed Aviation)<br />
Three hours ago he posted his [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im49MbwZ5fc fourth video,] Al Jazeera instruction on how to protect oneself from chemical weapons. The videos suggest he is a Islamist fighter, possibly a foreigner who recently arrived through Daraa.<br />
<br />
The video of the nighttime launching of the rocket suggests that he (or who ever made the video) was part of the rebel group firing the rocket. I cannot quite understand the title, but I guess it says they are firing chemical weapons at Assad's agents. The timing of the video is also of interest. The video was uploaded before the news of the attack broke out. How could he have known that the rocket pictured was carrying a chemical warhead, unless he was part of the team? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Spooky pattern, cool find. I'll say hypothetically, they happened to be near enough and panned in to film a firing by the regime at midnight, drive to the attacked area, learn of the chemical gas, and knowing that, upload this so titled at 4 a.m. But I doubt all of that. I'm not sure on the title admitting to firing the missile, a good translation would be needed. I can say firing chemical missile, God, Assad agents are all mentioned. Did you save a copy? Spooky pattern-leaving travelers sometimes pull stuff back down. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nighttime hospital scene ===<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U First video] starts from the outside, moves inside. Note the green water bottles used for pouring water on victims. These could help identify later inside footage. The first four videos are unlabeled: ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U 1,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de278-eftBA 2,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDb0fI_pwE 3,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_cxvCeVcu8 4]) A strap is hanging from the camera, helping to identify the cameraman. Starting from video 5 the uploads get a Coordinating Committee style logo, but are from the same set of footage: ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5Vby7TdnL8 5,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzpLeXcfNJk 6,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGOAmM1rN8s 7,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWhuHM2KifM 8,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrRsOzXwaw 9,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO8_eZcZkNE 10]) One more unlabeled video ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO8_eZcZkNE 11]) seems to be from the same place, this one shows fighting age men in and around an operating room. One has a needle stuck to his neck, I suppose for injection of atropine. (See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_agent#Antidotes Nerve agent antidotes]) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Context ===<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de278-eftBA second] and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U first] videos in the Kafar Batna video set may be the only ones giving these events any context. They show civilians outside the hospital screaming and panicking. Some of them are wearing protection against gas. (The scarfs would be effective against tear gas but not nerve agents.) <br />
<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30meTj6z_hM latest] video from Kafar Batna is an interview of a very young boy: ''Child injured with poison gas and killed his father and lost his mother tells what happened on August 21''. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 13:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Dead girls in morgue ===<br />
[[File:Kafar Batna girls.jpg|thumb|Das Verbrechen des syrischen Regimes hat ein neues Kaliber erreicht!]]<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_cxvCeVcu8 This] unlabeled video, (number 4 in the above nighttime series) show the beginning of the pileup in the morgue. Note the distinctive blanket that is shown at the end of the video. It is also shown in the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbXbafI7cCw debunk video] discussed [[#It never happened?|below]] with more young girls piled up on top of it. The scene is a windowless underground room.<br />
::Same blanket, or same design, seen in Damascus suburbs. Possible clue, not strong. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The same girls, and the corner of the blanket are later shown at daytime, in a large well-lit room with some one hundred other bodies lined up. The video is also uploaded by Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee, this time with their ''Kafar Batna City'' logo:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkGa2jr9MBA أكثر من مئة شهيد من الذين اسعفو لكفربطنا فقط جراء القصف الكيماوي21\8] (More than a hundred martyrs who ''Asafo'' for Kafr Batna only by chemical bombardment August 21)<br />
*:Note the typo in the word (اسعفو = Asafo), should most likely be (اسعفوا = Asafoa?)<br />
<br />
::: "More than a hundred martyrs by chemical bombardment August 21, only from those who were rescued to Kafr Batna" [[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 19:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::If not a verb but a place, probably Deir al-Asafir, which is nearby. Interesting video. Note how at around 0:20-25 you see at least two men bleeding from the head executed from this chemical bombing. I do suspect prominent use of chemicals, but I think there's a little more mixing of methods here than they're letting on. The beefier ones who pull through, wake up and start choking you as you drag them to the truck -shoot that one, mix him in anyway.And the children... man. Looking at them, it seems they tend to be open-mouthed, heads back, trying to breathe. No slime/foam or discoloration. Could have been suffocated in an airtight chamber somewhere then brought here. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712844128742681 This] comment video on Facebook notes that many bodies in the morgue scene have syringes placed on them. The hospital staff seem to be injecting them with something, most like atropine. It may be that all the bodies are not dead yet.<br />
::Qatar-provided experimental serum to cure Muslims of Shi'ism? Sorry, couldn't help it popping to mind. I would not be totally shocked, but I guess that would only work on the living - which they almost must be, right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U first] video in the Kafar Batna set the victims are brought in into the same room that is later used as the morgue in the daylight scene. (Note the bombed-out windows.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== On site video ===<br />
By now we should see video of bodies ''in situ'' where they have died. Also we should see video of the attack sites; empty houses where people left in panic. All we see is bodies at the morgue. <br />
This leaves open the possibility that the victims where al-Nusra hostages, killed with teargas in some confined space, and brought to the morgue to die. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I haven't noticed any yet that seem to be from the crime scenes. Like video silence almost. Well, I haven't watched enough to say, but you're ahead and there seem to be few if any? That is suspicious. Various things can be said about the victims, the killers, and their methods, from seeing the types of homes they were killed, where and how, etc. As I mention above (maybe could move here), there are some clues I half-expect to see that the victims were herded into rebel run prison houses (for their protection) prior to dying there. I took it to [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/411643962277281 the SOHR Facebook page], first linking to the ANNA CW cache video, then "The reports that many died in their basements is fishy too. Rebels often put their captives in basements before some die there (ex: Daraya massacre). Best way to get masses gassed is to control them and gas all these basements directly. The big clue is gender separation. Any videos of the bodies as found? If the women and men are split up, they did not hide themselves there." And then a follow-up "Any videos of the bodies as found?" And if not, why not? I'm only seeing bodies at the morgue so far, or in trucks arriving out of what seems like a cloud of video silence that leaves me wondering." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This video gives some context:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o99sMiuYo-w Syria Father crying over his Children who were killed in the Chemical Attack on Eastern Gouta (+18)] – Bashar Assad Crimes Archive, Aug 21, 2013<br />
:''A father is shedding tears over his children who were killed due to the shelling on Eastern Gouta with chemical weapons by Assad's gangs. A great number of injuries was documented which is not less than 50 martyrs so far in this area. All of them died due to suffocation with poisonous gas. We urge the International Investigation Committee and the powerless world to see how Syria's children are getting killed with chemical weapons by the hands of an imbecile tyrant.''<br />
Interestingly the "father" is more interested in calling for the UN and NATO to bomb "Assad" than in the death of his daughters. One must thus conclude that this is a pure propaganda video and provides no evidence on the situation on the ground, apart from the fact that three people are dead.<br />
<br />
On closer inspection one must ask: '''why does the girl have an open stab wound on her chest?''' -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I watched this, forgot to comment. Pretty horrible, of course. He's saying he's her father, isn't he? I'm not buying it, too old. The dead guy next to the dead kids seems a better fit - in his undershirt. "It isn't my turn to eat today," her last words - that was a bit much. And yes, she does have a hole in her chest, right about over the heart. It almost looks like the old creep is sticking his finger in it at one point, and it seems wider after that. I could wonder about a medical reason -there are some conditions where you inject adrenaline into the heart with a giant needle, like in the movie Pulp Fiction. Otherwise, looks like an Islamist stabbed her in the heart with a small blade. Maybe they're Alawites really. Whatever, camera fodder for cannon pleadings. Callous baby-shakers, I hate these people. Hands off Syria, motherfucker! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Related, something I saw, can't relocate now: one sign of CW poisoning was children unable to recognize, specifically, their parents. This is supposedly a classic symptom. Maybe so, but there are other interpretations of a kid on activist video screaming "this isn't my father!" (for example, don't know what they're citing offhand - but at least living kids get to speak for themselves, at whatever risk) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Locations ==<br />
Via [http://www.moonofalabama.org/2013/08/syria-another-false-flag-chemical-weapon-attack.html#c6a00d8341c640e53ef01901ef21c95970b M of O:] ''The reported neighborhoods of this reported chemical attack in the Damascus Al-Ghouta area are: '''Hammuriyah''', '''Irbin''', '''Saqba''', '''Kafr Batna''', '''Mudamiyah''', '''Harasta''', '''Zamalka''' and '''Ain Terma'''. Those are rebel-held areas and have been all this year.''<br />
<br />
Looking at the two maps it seems the numbers listed are Hammuriyah: 300, Irbin: 64+17+16+30, Saqba: ?, Kafr Batna: 150, Mudamiyah: ?, Harasta: ?, Zamalka: 400 and Ain Terma: 75. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Irbin 63 (30 children, 16 women, 17 men), Hamouriya 300, Saqba 69, Zamalka 400, Kafr Batna 150, Ayn Tarma 75 and Jisrayn 16 (3 children) and al-Muaddamiya 70 (plus 300 wounded).[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 19:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Ghouta CW map.jpg]]<br />
[[File:Googlrmap damas chimique.jpeg]]<br />
<br />
[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/08/26/world/middleeast/Areas-Affected-by-the-Alleged-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria.html?ref=middleeast&_r=1& NY Times interactive map]. Attack areas very close together, suspected launch site in Qaboun, but barely, almost in Jobar. And it shows Jobar hit, about ten blocks away from the launch site. Says UN investigators were attacked on the edge of rebel-infested Moadamiya SW of Damascus. [http://www.4thmedia.org/2013/08/28/new-york-times-attempts-to-bolster-kerrys-baseless-claim-that-syrian-government-used-chemical-weapons-on-their-own-people/ this article] says A map with a NYT article shows the launch site in a disputed area, which both Qaboun and Jobar are listed as. However, I didn't see the same map there, and it's very zoomed-out and imprecise. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Weather ===<br />
Weather in Damascus [http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSDI/2013/8/21/DailyHistory.html?MR=1 on August 21st:] steady wind from the west. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Mystery rockets ==<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/are-these-munitions-used-in-todays.html Are These The Munitions Used In Today's Alleged Chemical Weapon Attack?] – Brown Moses, 21 August 2013<br />
:''Large numbers of victims have been reported, and the following pictures have been posted online claiming to show two of the munitions used in the attack. What's extremely interesting about these devices is they match with devices previously recorded in the conflict, reportedly launched by government forces, with it's first appearance in Daraya, south-west Damascus on January 4th.''<br />
::That is a strange-looking device. Note he says "it seems likely these munitions have been '''manufactured inside Syria'''," which I guess both sides are capable of, and of course "local activists certainly seem to think they are related," and I would give them some credit for knowing the different parts of their psyop. But why such an odd part when it's been rebels building bizarre new weapons mainly? Why not use any of the stuff they've stolen that Syria technically still owns? Did Syria steal a multinational forces improv weapon and false-flag them with it? Specifics will help narrow down the possibilities. I plan to catch up a bit within the next few days. I also plan to pop in at this link for some comments. I've been well-received there. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Rocket impact site ===<br />
[[File:Ghouta Comp Map Jobar.png|right|420px]]<br />
I am trying to find the location of [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc6xL-N6f5M these] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uBpDxAoJA two] videos (+ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBKuVxggSJ8 one more]). It would help to establish the trajectory of Brown Moses' [http://imgur.com/a/1nziC mystery rocket.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I'm having a look. Seems semi-distinct and possible enough to narrow it down, maybe to one, but not guaranteed or easy. Can we even say what directions/time of day? I can only say either a bit before or a bit after mid-day? Doesn't help much. I'm comparing stills to some areas of Irbin, or will start in a minute. The furrows in that field, at 0:10 looking down them. If late morning, you're looking kind of north or perhaps northwest. If early afternoon, more like northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Sorry, I meant 0:10 in the first video. I'm looking again, still not sure, but it seems to me that sun is pretty high, and this will all be a little closer to the middle, north-south orientation of the range, or looking primarily north at 0:10. Maybe? What we need is a good elevation estimate and from that narrowed time/azimuth options. I don't know what to say - greater than 45 degrees, well under 90. Maybe 60 degrees? Petri? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::I think the flight path is perpendicular to the furrows in that field and the building wall. The building is facing north or southwest depending on whether it is am or pm. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::[https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Damascus,+Syria&hl=en&ll=33.539535,36.375754&spn=0.004552,0.009366&sll=47.272986,-120.882277&sspn=3.794172,9.591064&t=h&hnear=Damascus,+Damascus+Governorate,+Syria&z=17 here's a spot] to discuss. Not the one, but perhaps that shape and orientation of a field (or flipped on the N-S axis), bounded by buildings on left and right, pretty big, tall one(s) on the right, open space to the north. It's the major road on the south side at least that doesn't fit. Also, note how the (right, damaged) buidling(s) is not continuous, but has a split or recess in the middle. That should appear too. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Brown Moses and team have figured out the impact site in [https://plus.google.com/u/0/108344897173120412718/posts/6hfwLTS7dAr this] discussion thread on Google+. The location is not in Irbin, as suggested by the original video upload originating from the Irbin CC, but futher south in Zamalka. As I initially suspected, the building wall is facing due north, meaning that this is also the direction where the rocket came from.<br />
:Note: the spot is included in the inset image, comparison map: app. strike areas orange, rocket #197 as labeled, identified strike area in the red X. Jobar indicated, with parts that are about north. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A thorough analysis of the pictures can be found in this pro-Kurdish blog. The analysis confirms the direction: NORTH.<br />
* [http://thekurdishcause.blogspot.fi/2013/08/analysis-on-origin-of-cw-missile-191.html Analysis on the origin of CW missile #197 that landed in Ghouta, Syria.] – August 25, 2013<br />
I am still not convinced this is a chemical rocket and even if it is, it has anything to do with the hundreds of deaths. If the damage to the wall of the nearby building is related to a blast from the rocket, then I suspect the mystery rocket is a thermobaric weapon. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
''P.S.'' – I had a closer look at the photos. I now think the angle of impact is at a 40 degree angle to the east-west furrows, making the direction from northwest. This would make Jobar and Qaboun possible origins for the rocket. (I do not think it can fly much over 2 km.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::You'd better make it from the northwest, because everyone's saying north=SAA. ;) I had a look at all this. What a weird-looking bend. Are we sure that means it didn't come almost straight down? Somehow that would help explain it, to me. I'm not 100% on [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=%2B33%C2%B0+31%27+14.62%22,+%2B36%C2%B0+21%27+26.81%22&ie=UTF8&ll=33.520811,36.357547&spn=0.002281,0.005284&t=h&z=18 the spot chosen], but it is an uncanny fit for the images. Tricky, not even in Irbin and barely in Zamalka.The map shows e-w here is a couple degrees off, towards the west. So right there, 360 is actually 258 or so. Jobar to the northwest is one area that's sort of in the middle of all these, as [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cuQB3-FTo1U/UhnT_Vmf0MI/AAAAAAAAAB0/sNiS5TKBUcI/s1600/Ghouta_chemical_attack_map.svg.png the Wikipedia graphic shows].--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::There is a mound forming on the side of the crater where the rocket head is buried or where the earth has moved sideways. It is pointing some 30 to 40 degrees east from due south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Brown Moses does a thorough visual comparison of the alleged impact site to the video: 100% match.<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/finding-exact-location-of-alleged.html Finding The Exact Location Of An Alleged Chemical Munition, And What It Could Mean] – 26 August 2013<br />
<br />
=== Qaboun rocket lauches ===<br />
[[File:NYT Aug26 map.png|thumb|[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/08/26/world/middleeast/Areas-Affected-by-the-Alleged-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria.html?ref=middleeast&_r=1&''NYT'' map] from August 26 places a "suspected rocket launch site" at the southwestern corner of Qaboun.]]<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTV23jYn9US1AT7Va8R-uXg Qaboun MediaOffice] is publishing videos of rocket launches from some clearing in the residential area of Qaboun. I understand these to rebel rockets. (Overall I doubt if the SAA ever uses rockets for anything. It would only produce random shelling, and we have never seen proof of that. "Assad gangs" seem to be using [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8dqnXpsUA heavy artillery.])<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsXdxbvAuE~ هـااام جدا || القابون - لحظة إطلاق الصواريخ من ثكنة الوحدات الخاصة نحو الغوطة الشرقية 25-8-2013] (Haaam very | | Kaboun - the moment of firing rockets from the special units towards the barracks East Gouta 25/08/2013)<br />
:The correct translation would be: ''Qaboun - rockets being fired from the barracks of the Special Forces towards East Gouta 25/08/2013''. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The title of the videos refers to the SAA Special Forces HQ located in the middle of Qaboun. The implication is is that the rockets were fired by "regime" forces. Qaboun, including most likely the Special Forces HQ, has however been on rebel / al-Nusra control from June 2013. See [[#Special Forces Headquarters|Special Forces Headquarters]] below. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This looks almost like a smoking gun! Nighttime launch of rebel rockets from Qaboun to East Ghouta. Uploaded on August 22.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QChtV9yg_2U الصواريخ التي تطلق من الواحدات الخاصة في حي القابون بدمشق باتجاه الغوطة الشرقية] (Rockets fired from special units in Kaboun neighborhood in Damascus toward East Gouta)<br />
*:Note the typo in the word "الواحدات". Should be "الخاصة" = unit.<br />
The daytime videos show rockets being launched towards the west or southwest, thus in the direction of East Ghouta. Now, before even exploring the CW aspect of this, one must ask, '''why are rebels in Qaboun firing rockets at rebels in East Ghouta?''' -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Comparing this video to the [[#Amer mosa video|Amer mosa]] video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QChtV9yg_2U uploaded] to YouTube 4 am on August 21st, claiming to show chemical rockets fired at East Ghouta, I think it may show the same launch site, maybe even the same rocket. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I am trying to locate the launch site. The ''Markaz Rif Dimashq'' mosque targeted by SAA fire in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8dqnXpsUA this] video is [https://plus.google.com/111963505860127063940/about?gl=US&hl=fi%3Fgl=US here.] The launch site is about <s>[https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.549235,36.334727&spn=0.002213,0.004128&t=h&z=19 here.]</s> (No, not there, but 100 meters to southwest, in the parking lot [http://goo.gl/maps/4NY72 here.]) I still have not figured out where the camera is located. Could be as far away as the bombed out high-rise tower in the northwest corner of Jobar. The distance from this launch site to the [[#Rocket impact site|crash site]] of rocket #197 is 3810 meter in direction 146,25 degrees. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The location match looks good - I keep being ready to try but someone else gets it. Where filmed from, less important, somehwere pretty tall. That's a government-run site normally? I see trucks and stuff. One important problem though: the title translation you got was jumbled. Go word-by-word and it's more like special units barracks firing towards Ghouta. Special alone translates private. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::The large building in the background is the Tishreen Military Hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More rocket launches from Qaboun: -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s4EB_AR5Ng القابون | لحظة إطلاق صاروخ أرض أرض من الوحدات الخاصة باتجاه الغوطة] (Qaboun | Launching surface-to-surface missile from Special Forces base towards Ghouta) – Aug 25, 2013<br />
:If this is the video I watched earlier and I'm reading it right, this isn't firing towards East Ghouta but kind of west and probably a bit south, maybe Moadamiya etc. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Special Forces Headquarters ====<br />
Wikimapia says the launch site is the parking lot of the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.544149&lon=36.330779&z=16&m=b&show=/22166796/Headquarters-of-the-special-forces Headquarters of the special forces (Damascus).] This absolutely, without any doubt '''proves Assad did it!!!''' (Or then this is all a part of a deliberate, well planned false flag operation.)<br />
<br />
Maps published by the pro-Assad blogger Syrian Perspective however show that Special Forces HQ was in FSA / al-Nusra hands on August 16 – or the very least, highly contested. In fact this other Qaboun CC [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8dqnXpsUA video] shows the SAA shelling the area, including mosque, just south of the parking lot with heavy artillery in August 24. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 13:03, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTRsoOxRE1Q Another video] from the 18th talks about Qabon under siege of the army. documents.sy [http://documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=719&lang=en reports fierce clashes on the 16th]. On the 21st, SyrPer (is that the same one doing the maps on FB?) [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.com/2013/08/first-post-august-21-2013-syrian-high.html brags] that Qaboon and those "trapped inside" is about to fall and elaborates:<br />
<br />
::''The news is in and its not good the apes of Arabia or their terrorist mercenary rodent kin in Syria. Finally, the Syrian High Command is optimistic about the next 24 hours in both Barza and Al-Qaaboon. These two abandoned suburbs are falling into the hands of the SAA. Tunnels underneath the two areas have been discovered and closed down leaving the rats with only surface pathways out. They are also being closed. Monzer is in Damascus and tells us that the numbers of dead rodents in these two areas exceed 230 at the present.''<br />
: Doesn't sound like the SAA controlled the city centre while those rockets were fired. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, then. Impressive turn-around. I'll say Qaboon is a good sized area with room for numerous control situations at once, in its sub-areas. Shelling the mosque area could be to protect this base, or to rive people out of an area they control including that and the base. The map is not a good indicator. But being "abandoned," if true, might mean even by the military. Rebels could and would run it all. I'll say it's contested. And to about there, or maybe Jobar, somewhere mostly north but a bit west, seems where the tail of that rocket came from. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Who controls Qaboun? ====<br />
[[File:Damascus June 17 2013.jpg|thumb|Damascus June 17 2013]]<br />
[[File:Damascus August 16 2013.jpg|thumb|Damascus August 16 2013]]<br />
Qaboun and Jobar are important, as the main highways north from Damascus pass between them and Irbeen in East Ghouta. Syria's largest double cloverleaf intersection sits just east of Qaboun. Controlling the area means the rebels could block all traffic north from Damascus. I have often wondered how this effects the strategic situation? Is civilian traffic able to pass on the main '''M1''' motorway? (Update: This July 16 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwoXrYVFLZc ANNA news footage] shows the civilian traffic does in fact flow freely past Qaboun, kind of. :-)<br />
<br />
Syrian Perspective's two maps would indicate that Jobar (Jawbar) and Qaboun (al-Qaboon) are the only place rebels have made progress in the summer of 2013. The June 17 map show an attack over the cloverleaf intersection and the August 16 map rebel control (green) in Qaboun. At the current state of the war, most rebel advanced are done by al-Qaeda-linked groups or hard lined Islamists. Regular "[[FSA]]" revolutionaries are at best capable of holding rebel-held populated areas. The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srmvYhUY6Z8 ANNA report] from August 21 described the rebel forces holding Jobar as "elite units" of al-Nusra. I presume the rebel forces in Qaboun have similar allegiances.<br />
<br />
The current situation in Qaboun is best described by a comment on Syrian Perspectives August 21 blog post posted by Parviziyi on August 24. (Parviziyi is an Assad supporter and a regular [https://www.facebook.com/notes/bodhibrian-souter/parviziyi-that-syrias-leadership-has-the-support-of-most-syrians/221534611280236 contributor] to ''Moon of Alabama''.)<br />
<br />
: [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.fi/2013/08/first-post-august-22-2013-syrian-army.html?showComment=1377357524328#c8572343920619192157 '''parviziyi – August 24, 2013 at 8:18 AM''']<br />
:''I've largely quit reading this blog. But there's an item above that jogged my memory from when I was reading the blog more regularly, a month ago. Ziad wrote above with date 22 Aug 2013: "We predict the fall of Al-Qaaboon shortly, i.e. withing the next 4 days." On 12 Jul 2013 Ziad wrote: [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.ie/2013/07/second-post-july-12-2013-al-qaaboon.html "AL-QAABOON LIBERATED COMPLETELY".] On 17 Jul 2013 Ziad wrote: [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.ie/2013/07/first-post-july-17-2013-barza-and-al.html "AL-QAABOON ON THE VERGE OF PURIFICATION".'']<br />
<br />
:''He made similar bald assertions in July and early August about Damascus Jowbar district, Homs Bab Hood district, and (more ridiculously) the entirety of Idlib province. When Ziad writes assertions like that, Ziad truly doesn't know what he's talking about.''<br />
<br />
:''In the fighting in Al-Qaboon we know that the Syrian army has got bigger and better weaponry and more men on the ground than the rebels have. But the question of whether Al-Qaboon will "fall" is a question of whether all the rebels with decide to withdraw from the area and stay withdrawn from it, and decide to concentrate themselves in another area in Damascus. And Ziad has no information basis whatsoever for answering that question.''<br />
<br />
:''And if Al-Qaboon "falls" it may mean very little. The Al-Qaboon-Jowbar area a warzone depopulated of all civilians, or almost all. There are a number of other neighborhoods in Damascus that are heavily populated and almost normal today. If you were a rebel in Damascus city and you had your choice between either (a) retaining your fighting presence in the largely empty and desolate Al-Qaboon-Jowbar neighborhood or (b) destroying law and order for hundreds of thousands of civilians in some other Damascus neighborhood, which would you pick? which option would more effectively advance the goal of bringing down government? If it were to turn out that Al-Qaboon does "fall" shortly, it'd no way indicate that Ziad had the slightest intelligence on what he's talking about.''<br />
<br />
Parviziyi then continues with the topic:<br />
:''From rebels sources it is clear that the rebel fighters that have been in Jobar-Qaboon since early Spring 2013 (and before) are with the [http://www.youtube.com/user/tahreralsham/videos ''Tahreer Al Sham brigade''] and that's same brigade that is fighting there today.<br />
<br />
He links to [http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/most-important-events-indamascus-province-for-thursday-2282013/ this 22 Aug 2013 post] by ''YallaSouriya'', which names another brigade also active in Jobar the day: [http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCMeCkFPWYpoDgy0pLwJ9Fg/videos ''Abu Thar Al Ghafari FSA brigade''.]<br />
<br />
I am sure a search for ''Qaboun'' and ''Special Forces'' would produce rebel videos of the launch site, most likely with FSA / al-Qaeda in control. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;August 20:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQsER6Saijs أورينت نيوز..الثوار يحررون مبنى الاتصالات في القابون] (Orient News .. rebels liberate a telecommunications building in Kaboun) – TelevisionOrient, Aug 20, 2013<br />
:I couldn't tell what footage is from where or get a location on this comms building. Seeing the inside, I wonder if this is where that confirming call the Israelis picked up was placed from? That could be almost as damning as the missile launch itself. Wasn't it the following early AM, less than 24 hours after this footage, that it would've been placed? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I knew the Israeli claim was bogus, I did not know whether it was the Israelis or the FSA in Syria who provided the falsified information. You are right to take note of this. Capturing a communications building the day before for the purpose dissipating false messages is yet another indication of the thorough planing and enormity of the conspiracy. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I am not really following the details here, yet, but it sounds good, well worth pursuing. I will add a thought. Anyone presented with this theory, and inclined to doubt it for complicating the cool regime-blame thing, will ask this: "If rebels took over the missile base, why wouldn't the government tell us? Especially when it's said the rockets hitting Ghouta came from that base?" It's a good question. I could offer maybe they didn't know (not likely) maybe they're embarrassed (but clearly should get over it), afraid it wouldn't be believed, would sound like a dodge and an admission it was their base that fired it or, maybe, it never was taken over. Or they did tell us, but the fact has been completely obliterated from our telescreens. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Facebook celebrations ==<br />
<br />
There has been an odd element in the early reports of SPIEGEL this morning ... "Assad supporters celebrate" was part of the news. In the article(s) (they publish a lot of newly assembled versions of their stuff over the day) [http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/syrien-opposition-berichtet-von-mehr-als-tausend-giftgas-opfern-a-917781.html they report] that "Harasta News Network" published a statement that "On orders of President Assad, may God protect him, and on orders of proud Syrian Alawite Officers, this morning at half past five East Ghouta was attacked with Chemical Weapons and the operation was finished successfully. We are awaiting details of the operation in the next hours". (my translation of what you find in the last paragraph of the German language article). At 10:30 AM (not specified for both if German or Syrian time zones) "the site was taken from the net" (sic) Also, they claim, a facebook page called "Shohdaa.alwatan" claimed that 500 died in a "cleansing operation". A search for "Harasta News Network" only gave a small number of indifferent results, most of them German news articles quoting SPIEGEL. Maybe worth investigating - I don't do facebook. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 00:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Clearly, this sounds like a pretty fishy allegation. Someone may have actually even typed that into an actual loyalist site, etc. Just like you can with John Snow's blog. To me, it only shows that someone in the opposition knows they need some supports here, quick. This admittedly doesn't make much sense. Consider this desperate activist explaining it all ([http://observers.france24.com/content/20130822-chemical-weapons-claims-syrian-activists (Observers France 24]): "I think the regime doesn’t care that the UN inspectors are less than 5 kilometres away. On the contrary, by carrying out these bombings despite the observers’ presence, they’re sending a crystal-clear message to the international community." He doesn't say just what the message is supposed to be, other than that it's so super clear some are mistaking it for an obvious false-flag operation. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== U.N. Investigator Response ==<br />
This is an area to watch closely, and maybe worth some discussion and thought. It's thorny stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Obviously, the U.N. chemical weapons inspection team had just arrived not two days before this to start a two-week mission. They were based in a Damascus hotel less than 5 km away from one activist who said "I think the regime doesn’t care that the UN inspectors are less than 5 kilometres away. On the contrary, by carrying out these bombings despite the observers’ presence, they’re sending a crystal-clear message to the international community." <ref name="ODV" /> (exact alleged message unspecified) Similarly, CNN reported this taunt: <br />
:''"The inspectors will not come," said a resident who didn't want his real name used. "If they wanted to come, they would have come a long time ago. The Assad regime determines where the inspectors go, and they will not let them go there. There is already a siege around Eastern Ghouta from the Assad regime."'' <ref name="CNN1">[http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/world/meast/syria-civil-war/ Syrian activists: Videos show chemical weapons used] By Samira Said and Ashley Fantz, CNN, updated 8:27 PM EDT, Wed August 21, 2013</ref> --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
From a Washington Post report:<br />
:''Ake Sellstrom, the Swedish scientist who heads the U.N. inspection team in Syria, told the Swedish media that he had seen only the television images of the alleged attacks. "But the high number of wounded and dead they are speaking about sounds suspicious,” Sellström told Swedish news agency TT, via telephone from Damascus. “It sounds like something one should take a look at.” <ref name="WP1">[http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-pro-opposition-groups-claim-dozens-killed-in-poisonous-gas-attack-near-damascus/2013/08/21/8bd0791a-0a2b-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html Head of UN chemical weapons team in Syria says he wants to look into latest gas attack claim]Washington Post, August 21, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
And of course, Western powers are demanding exactly that the "inspectors," as activists keep calling them, be allowed to cruise over there and somehow find out if CW were used, but carefully not decide by whom. The pull of events sucking Sellstrom's team into the (rebel-infested false-flag free-fire) zone is immense. They are being played up as heroes - inspirational non-Muslim ones! - who would be immensely mourned if they did show up and see the truth, only to be gassed by "the regime" before they escaped with the truth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
That's a possible plot, however likely, that might be part of why Damascus won't let them go. As Fabius said, Assad would be caught "with his hand in the till" and NATO bombing would be the most logical next step. So to avert that, maybe Damascus will have to let them go to ... Arbin to Zamalka, what, 8-9 places? By the time it's done, two weeks will be long passed. Or they will get gassed too on the third stop, and "Assad" will be caught hiding the truth, and thus, same next logical step. Or, Syria promises to let them go, once the surrounding countryside is cleared again, which will take way more than three weeks. In case any witnesses in Khan al-Assal remain alive, no one will come talk to them.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Rebel Orders From Aleppo===<br />
: An "operations room" in Khan Al-Assal has issued [http://www.documents.sy/image.php?id=2374&lang=en a statement] demanding that the Investigators first go to Ghouta, or else they won't get access to Khan Al-Assal. The [http://rt.com/news/syria-chemical-attack-cooperation-841/ Russians say] Syria is ready for "maximum" cooperation. Maybe your first suspicion among the line of "dead investigators are bad for Damascus" was spot on. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Fascinating twist there. They are really being pushed, geographically, to this spot(s), in a palpable way that's ominous. Also, distracting from Aleppo is central, and this helps show that. Statement should continue: "if you go to Gouta first - ALL sites and there are five more we forgot to mention - and get here, alive, we promise to cooperate fully, and that if anyone gasses you here, it will be the regime, not us." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Investigating Ghouta===<br />
By the 25th, almost one week into their two-week mandate (possibly will be extended), it was announced the team would go to the sites of the recent attacks. <br />
* [http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=7041 New York, 25 August 2013 - Statement Attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria]<br />
:''On 24 and 25 August, the High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, Ms. Angela Kane met with senior officials of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic. The purpose of her visit was to seek cooperation of the Government in facilitating an expeditious investigation of the incident in the Ghouta area on 21 August involving the alleged use of chemical weapons.''<br />
<br />
:''The Secretary-General has instructed the Mission under Dr. Sellström, currently in Damascus, to focus its attention on ascertaining the facts of the 21 August incident as its highest priority. The Mission is preparing to conduct on-site fact-finding activities, starting tomorrow, Monday, 26 August.''<br />
<br />
:''The Secretary-General notes the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic affirmed that it will provide the necessary cooperation, including the observance of the cessation of hostilities at the locations related to the incident. ... The Secretary-General would like to reiterate that all relevant parties equally share the responsibility of cooperating in urgently generating a safe environment for the Mission to do its job efficiently and providing all necessary information.'' <ref name="UN825">[http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=7041 Statement Attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria] UN. New York, 25 August 2013</ref><br />
<br />
So they drive over there - just where I'll have to see. First thing, [http://news.yahoo.com/damascus-gives-green-light-un-chemical-arms-probe-131621829.html unidentified snipers] shoot at the lead vehicle several times, forcing them to give up and go back. Clearly the regime trying to stall them, right? No one dead yet. Gassing won't work outside a basement prison, I decided, so shooting or other hard hits will have to do it if they want to have the regime off these guys. Maybe another try tomorrow. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:They should just visit the Special Forces Headquarters parking lot. See who's firing the rockets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Not safe. That's where the snipers were shooting from. ;) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== U.S. Response ===<br />
The U.S. response is interesting. Citing Los Angeles Times: [http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-inspectors-20130826,0,4207088.story U.S. dismisses Syria's inspection offer as 'too late']: <br />
:''The Obama administration dismissed Syria's offer to allow inspectors access to the site of a suspected chemical weapons attack as having come "too late" and declared there was "very little doubt" the government had used poison gas against civilians...'' <br />
or in essence, it's too late for facts to disrupt this total certainty. Who knew it had a gestation period less than five days? Now we can never go back, no matter what the facts say. There is and can be no real doubt. Ever, again. Clearly, there is theatrics to the "tioo late" blustering. It makes little to no factual sense, but has an emotional impact, a big threatening shout at an insane pitch, designed to shake Syrians into defection and disarray. Problem is, it's been done incessantly at so many volume levels, even this - loudest yet though it is - they might remain immune. <br />
<br />
So is actual full-on conflict on the way? I think the signs say no. Consider:<br />
:''a senior administration official, in a written statement given to reporters on condition of anonymity, brushed aside the Syrian offer...''<br />
Is that deniability? Could be, if needed. More hedging even now? Especially now? <br />
:''Despite the assertion of "little doubt," the administration has not presented any evidence of its own that the Syrian government carried out such an attack, instead citing public reports made by others.''<br />
They don't have John Kerry holding up a report and a vial of powder at the U.N., claiming the hardest proof ever the regime dunnit. So far it seems more "it's worth another try" at threats, than a real drive to war. I hope I'm right on that. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On to the logic of the dismissal: It won't hold up. <br />
:''"If the Syrian government had nothing to hide and wanted to prove to the world that it had not used chemical weapons in this incident, it would have ceased its attacks on the area and granted immediate access to the U.N. — five days ago," the official said. By now, the government has had many opportunities to destroy evidence, including by shelling the areas, the official noted.''<br />
Five days of shelling renders a site worthless? Why didn't anyone mention that when they were insisting Syria grant access to a dozen or more sites of alleged attacks dating back sometimes to December? One of those - Homs, Dec. 23 - was on the investigators' itinerary at the moment this major distraction blew up all around them just a few days ago. When was that going to be cancelled for being months too late? The government was still hoping to have Khan al-Assal looked at, five months after they first asked for this investigation. But the U.S. gets all snippy when it takes five days, in the middle of a war zone full of ... problems. Perhaps they're afraid that, after all the bluster about how they'd better get over there, there will be no clues implicating the regime. But they were there a few days ago, everyone's pretty sure, and they're already so convinced that actual gathered facts would just be anti-climactic and a buzzkill. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Motives? ==<br />
Here is my first draft on the motives of the parties to commit the act. The section should be moved to article space after, maybe some minor editing. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Rebels ===<br />
While the Western public is eager to believe the "evil tyrant" Assad "gassed his own people" it is equally difficult to believe the "freedom fighting" rebels would have murdered 1800 Syrian civilians. There are however at least four major reasons why the rebels would gain or benefit from the gas attack.<br />
<br />
;1) Blame Assad<br />
The first round of reporting on the incident has almost exclusively followed the rebel narrative and blamed the "Assad regime" for the attack.<br />
<br />
This is no coincident, but follows a carefully rehearsed choreography – from the the al Bayda massacre in Cyrenaica, Libya on February 22, 2011 that triggered UNSC resolution 1970 on Fabruary 26, to the Houla massacre in Taldo Syria. Every time the Western led "international community" has accused "oppressive regimes" when the real culprits have been Islamist revolutionaries.<br />
<br />
Ultimately the aim of the aim of the rebels is to get the West to intervene in the war on their side.<ref>[http://rt.com/op-edge/us-syria-chemical-weapons-intervention-854/ US, UK looking for pretext to escalate intervention in Syria] – RT, August 22, 2013<br />
</ref><ref>[http://rt.com/news/us-missile-attack-syria-929/ US readies possible missile strike against Syria - report] – RT, August 24, 2013</ref> If that fails, at least it boost their support among the Western audience. At a minimum it will lead to calls for a ceasefire<ref>[http://www.democracynow.org/2013/8/23/syrian_activist_on_ghouta_attack_i Syrian Activist on Ghouta Attack: "I Haven’t Seen Such Death in My Whole Life"] – ''DemocracyNow!'', August 23, 2013</ref> – likely to be to the rebels advantage.<br />
<br />
;2) Distract UN investigation<br />
:''See [[#U.N. Investigator Response|U.N. Investigator Response]] above.''<br />
<br />
;3) Part of Al-Qaeda WMD program<br />
It has always been known, or at least suspected, that al-Qaeda has a WMD program. The purported aim of such a program is to repeat 9/11, conceivably on a much larger scale.<ref>[http://jcpa.org/article/syrian-chemical-weapons-and-al-qaida/ Syrian chemical weapons and al-Qaida] – Dore Gold, July 27, 2012</ref> The ''War on Terror'' was launched precisely to prevent such an attack ever happening.<br />
<br />
The ultimate outcome of such a program would be a set of DIY instructions that could be distributed by ''Inspire'' magazine and its sister publications. The plans need to be executable with normal garage tools from parts obtainable from any hardware store. The DIY rockets described by Brown Moses would satisfy this requirement.<br />
<br />
The Syrian conflict has seen a gradual development of al-Qaeda CW capability, from initial demonstrations with rabits, posted on YouTube, to successful but small scale attacks, like the one in [[Alleged chemical attack, March 19, 2013|Khan Al-Assal]] in March 2013, to confiscation of canisters of sarin from al-Qaeda operatives in Turkey and Syria to the arrest of a al-Qaeda chemical weapons cells in Iraq in July 2013.<ref>[http://centralasiaonline.com/en_GB/articles/caii/features/main/2013/08/02/feature-02 Iraq completes capture of chemical weapons cell] – August 2, 2013 – Quote: ''Al-Fayyadh said further investigations revealed that plans were put in place for al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra to get access to those weapons and "further aggravate the tragedy of the Syrian people."''</ref><br />
<br />
If the numbers of 1600 killed are anywhere near the truth, then one must conclude that a rocket attack like this, fully executed, could kill 50,000 people in a heavily populated Western metropolis (twice the number if done al-Qaeda style as a coordinated double attack), with little immediate risk to the perpetrators. For the WMD deterrence effect – or in this case, the terror effect – to work, the WMD capability has to be demonstrated ''in vivo''.<br />
<br />
;4) Rebel infighting<br />
The al-Qaeda affiliates [[Al Nusra Front|al-Nusra]] and ISIS have become dominant in the rebel held territories in the north near the Turkish border, while rebel forces in the south are in much tighter US control. Recent months have seen increased infighting between the rebels, culminating in [[Tal Abyad massacre|all-out war]] between the Kurdish YPG and al-Qaeda in the north. The attack might be an attempt by al-Qaeda to usurp leadership in the south by terrorizing other rebel groups and their supporters into subjugating to al-Qaeda rule.<br />
<br />
They may see it as a divine revenge to the people of Ghouta for failing the revolution and surrendering to Assad, like Hitler's orders to Albert Speer to destroy everything. Besides, in the end it does matter who gets killed, Allah will sort out the righteous from the infidels.<br />
<br />
=== Government ===<br />
;Stupidity<br />
''"Governments and armies do stupid things."''<ref> [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-evidence-of-chemical-attack-seems-compelling--but-remember--theres-a-propaganda-war-on-8778918.html The evidence of chemical attack seems compelling – but remember - there’s a propaganda war on] – PATRICK COCKBURN / ''The Independent'', 21 August 2013</ref><br />
Or, as Foreign Policy reported, "nor are U.S. analysts sure of the Syrian military's rationale for launching the strike -- if it had a rationale at all." An unnamed intelligence official told them: <br />
:''"We don't know exactly why it happened ... We just know it was pretty fucking stupid ... It's horrible, it's stupid ... Whatever happens in the next few days -- they get what they deserve." <ref name="FP" /><br />
<br />
== It never happened? ==<br />
<br />
The government has been sticking to the story "it never happened". (Maybe it did, they just never heard about it.) I would say the evidence is yet inconclusive. There is a huge number of videos, coming from seemingly independent rebel YouTube channels. Most, if not all of the videos are however hospital footage, with nothing that shows the victims or the attack ''in situ''. I do not think the dead people are staged, but for all we know the victims could be (Kurd) hostages gassed to death in some "confined space".<br />
<br />
The ''New York Times'' [http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/video-and-images-of-victims-of-suspected-syrian-chemical-attack/?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=3& reports:]<br />
:''While the veracity of the visual evidence uploaded to YouTube could not be independently established, chemical weapons experts told The Times that the injuries seen in footage from the region did not appear to be consistent with the effects of a conventional chemical weapon like sarin or mustard gas and that the deaths might have been caused by the use of a weaker chemical agent in a confined space.''<br />
<br />
Russia Today says they cannot confirm the attacks happened:<br />
:''A correspondent for the Russian TV channel RT Arabic succeeded in contacting local residents in the area of the alleged chemical weapons attack. RT reports, that the locals replied to the correspondent, that they have not witnessed any “poisonous attack” in the area, but that they could hear gunfire.<br />
<br />
AINA TV says they were at or near the scene filming with their nine cameras, and saw now sign of the use of chemical weapons:<br />
* [http://anna-news.info/node/12226 Documented evidence of the non-use of chemical weapons in Eastern Gouta today]<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This video tries to debunk a large part of the story (now translated into English):<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbXbafI7cCw Fake massacre by Syrian army using Chemical weapons] – Translated by ''Syrians in Sweden''<br />
The same group of small children (girls mainly, like the ones we saw in the [[Baniyas massacre]]) are filmed in at least three different arrangements. Each piece of footage is then published by a different rebel YouTube channel. ([http://www.youtube.com/user/syriafredoom/videos One] of them is the ''Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee'') Did they move the bodies around to film them in different parts of the Eastern Ghouta? <s>For all I know these could be Kurd children massacred in [[Tal-Abyad]] by ISIS.</s> (See [[#Dead girls in morgue|Dead girls in morgue]] above.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Watched that. I agree with their call. It seems she's been been presented in three spreads that seem to be described as different victims batches in different towns. Three times, one victims. Other matches should be likely if so. And yes, they would be that sloppy and usually are. But in one room, we see what looks like about two dozen young girls. As a baseline indicator, this has to be big. I'd estimate 30 boys, 20 women, 30 men, another just-triple-digits on-the-fringes "Shabiha" massacre of certain families is a lot what it looks like, but with no visible wounds. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::The debunk is debunked here: [http://the-assad-debunkation.tumblr.com/post/59079756229/the-ghouta-chemical-attack-propaganda-frenzy The Ghouta Chemical Attack Propaganda Frenzy - Debunked:]<br />
<br />
:::Arabi Souri is [https://twitter.com/briansouter1/status/371485013629349888 now claiming] that some of the child victims shown on video are in fact kidnapped [[Latakia Massacres|Latakia massacre]] victims:<br />
::::''Some pictures of the children killed by 'Sarin chemical gas' in Ghouta (#Damascus Countryside) are for children kidnapped from #Latakia countryside and their families recognized them.''<br />
:::-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It never happened? It very damn well could not have happened, in the slightest bit. But I do suspect it damn well did, at least a bit. And I'm damn friggin' mad about it, and behind on the alleged details. I suspect a poison gas was deployed somewhere, and also a large number of people, including kids, were murdered in the rebel-infested parts of Reef Dimashq. Locals "have not witnessed any “poisonous attack” in the area, but that they could hear gunfire," RT heard. I wonder if the kind of shells used were the same ones used on Alawite Aqrab in December, per opposition sources [http://ciwclibya.org/syria/aqrabvisiblevictims.html causing all the deaths that occurred there?] Those two were sometimes snipers, and sometimes hacked open kids' skulls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Didn't think it through, but the comparison might be better than I thought. The result of the alleged Abrab shelling was rebels in control of the area, 500 Alawite civilians in custody, 300 released, 200 unknown. Confined into a single house, they were denied food and water and had their air poisoned with the smoke of burning tires. Smoke, chlorine, sarin, what have you, and recalling that crossing the "red line" is a bonus... If civilians at gunpoint could be abducted and confined (yes) and if people rebels dislike enough or consider expendable still exist in Syria (yes, in abundance) then "the deaths might have been caused by the use of a weaker chemical agent in a confined space.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It never happened? Big picture, above stands, but it seems at least something on the scale of the Houla massacre but with toxic gas happened, perhaps with some battles and dead rebels thrown in, and some creative bookkeeping allowing reports of 1,000 + gassed to panic everyone into "urgent" action. Syria will need to have a look and more carefully say what did and didn't happen. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Videos a Day Early?===<br />
According to several Assadist sources the attack could not have happened because "[http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/22/photo-al-jazzera-reuter-published-the-news-of-massacre-in-east-ghouta-damascus-one-day-before-the-massacre-happened-by-assad/ Al Jazzera, Reuter published the news of massacre in East Ghouta, Damascus one day before the massacre happened.]" Yeah, pro-Assad Syrians are not very computer savvy. :-( [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Yeah, I read - skimmed - that yesterday as well. ;o) What is official Youtube-Time? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Maybe only indirectly related: [http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8da_1377112216 If you wanna play a chemical attack victim, better not be ticklish]... ;oD --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
RT is sticking to the "wrong timeline" story:<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/syria-chemical-prepared-advance-901/ Materials implicating Syrian govt in chemical attack prepared before incident – Russia] – RT, August 23, 2013<br />
:''Despite the 7-hour time difference between Syria and the US, where the YouTube server is located, the mismatch of the dates in the videos raised concerns among some experts about the exact time of the upload.''<br />
Even the Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman, Aleksandr Lukashevich is falling for this.''“The materials of the incident and accusations against government troops had been posted for several hours before the so-called attack. Thus, it was a pre-planned action.”'' Doesn't Russia have a fucking intelligence service!<br />
::Agreed, big fail. It says right there it's U.S. eastern time, which I think is actually 8 hours earlier. 4 am Syria = 8 pm "the previous day" on Youtube. 4 hours of it followed. The actual news story should have been "Despite the 7-hour time difference between Syria and the US, where the YouTube server is located, the mismatch of the dates in the videos raised concerns among some experts about the exact time of the upload," and thus not run! When they say pre-planned, I hope they don't mean this, but just that you don't do this without planning. Or based on some other evidence they can share. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Is this possibly a subtle joke, or a "soft power" trick that they too can push transparent propaganda, or something? For a nation with 11 time zones, you think they'd get this issue better than most. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Looking at YouTube Gdata, I get timestamps [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/L6B8wq1VXN0 2013-08-21T03:37:12.000Z] [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/VGOAmM1rN8s 2013-08-21T02:51:02.000Z] and [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/PXwS4_E3OQE 2013-08-21T01:00:54.000Z] for the three videos embedded on the RT page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:This is a trick I will need to learn (later). Specifics, understood, see? Z = GMT. The last one is almost, maybe, problematic. It's said the attacks stared around 4 am local (I'm hazy). That last one is posted 4:01 local time (GMT +3). That's just barely too early, depending. Probably not. But anyway, that's how you would go about finding things that were up too early, suggesting pre-planning/foreknowledge on the rebel side. It's worth watching for, for sure. Not just with videos, but anywhere. And for foreknowledge on the other side too, for that matter. Nothing credibly reported yet. I suspect anything found will be vague and unprovable, but surely interesting and likely true. '''*''' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:'''<nowiki>*</nowiki>''' if it blames the rebels. What can I say? They have all the motive and that's the #1 thing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:53, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/confused-by-how-youtube-assigns-dates-russians-cite-false-claim-on-syria-videos/?_r=1& The Lede] says actually Youtube's time zone is set to California, Pacific time. That's my own time zone, but it says it's 10 hours behind Syria, not 11. I might be wrong but I thought PST was -8 from GMT. Anyway, this means there were at least six hours of Aug. 21 that would appear on Youtube as Aug. 20, 6 Pm to midnight Caifornia, = the first six hours of the attack, or about all of it. Only things filmed after about 10 am in Syria can even hope to be shown as posted on Aug 21. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Chemicals injected after death? ===<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkGa2jr9MBA morgue video] from Kafr Batna shows victims being injected with syringes, as [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712844128742681 noted] here. Assad supporters have picked on this an are now [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=563219720424586 claiming] the victims were injected after death, apparently to plant false evidence for the UN investigators to find. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:One way or another, they got samples running barricades to the U.N. people, should be there by now with a few km involved. I'm guessing it's samples of human blood they got chemicals into. As that's the whole idea, this sounds plausible. As for doing it right there on video, sure, I could see that audacity, given what I've seen. Otherwise, I don't know. Kind of seems they were killed by gassing, so ideally just that exposure is what would be most realistic.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I do not believe there is anything fake in any of the videos. I think all the people in the videos genuinely believe they were gassed by "Assad". How would they know if it was al-Qaeda that launched the rockets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /></div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013&diff=6702Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 20132013-08-28T19:33:04Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Dead girls in morgue */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Planted bodies? ==<br />
Can you name the 10 reasons why I believe these bodies are planted? Do your own analysis, I do not want to (mis)guide you.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mypx96MK5N0 Entire Family Killed by Chemical Weapons attack on Damascus] – ANAChannelEng, Aug 24, 2013<br />
:''Video Description: Video portrays an a building inspection in which a number of families are found dead 36 hours after a chemical weapons attack which took place on Damascus suburbs on the 21st of August 2013 early morning time (presumed at 2:00am)''<br />
:''This video was taken in the Zamalka area of the Eastern Ghouta of Damascus suburbs.''<br />
The link comes from Matthew Asheville's blog ''Syria Analysis:''<br />
* [http://syriaanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/entire-family-allegedly-killed-by-chemical-attack-have-injuries-consistent-with-death-by-thermobaric-weapon-not-chemical-attack/ Entire Family allegedly killed by chemical attack suffered injuries consistent with death by thermobaric weapon (Eastern Ghouta)] – "9 hours ago" (August 27, 2013)<br />
Yeah, the "chemical attack" story may turn out to be bogus, but somehow you must still be able to blame "Assad". -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Thermobaric weapons make you bleed out of your head as if shot in the head? That's kind of what it looked like, shot - there - and decaying. Pretty awful. Saved a copy. Too tired to read the explanation, or make any guesses, now. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I don't know this subject, apparently. I was going to guess not FAE becuase the place is so open. But he says that helps. The bleeding could be from a pressure wave rupturing organs, with blood out the mouth. The sort of ruptured-looking mouths too are rather unusual and must have some explanation kind of like that. I wonder how much sense their positions make for being hit with that wave. I guess it was pushing straight down just like gravity? And he notes the dust in this home of so many people could be from such a wave. Or from construction, which this home is clearly under. IE, people don't live there yet, so why were all these people there? It doesn't even seem like anyone was squatting there, from what we see. So that's one reason I'd think they were planted there. <br />
<br />
So then ... put there and then bombed? Bombed elsewhere and put here while still bleeding profusely? Or not bombed? This as far as I go now, more typing needed elsewhere. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Do Syrian sleep in winter overcoats? ==<br />
One disturbing aspect of the videos is the all the victims I have seen are fully dressed. Some, as the ones in the [[#Planted bodies?|Planted bodies?]] video, have thick, winter-type overcoats. Do Syrians sleep fully clothed?<br />
<br />
One could try to explain this anomaly by claiming that all of Eastern Ghouta was under heavy bombardment and people had gotten dressed to seek shelter. In fact many of the Western news stories inadvertently claimed the chemical attack was preceded by shelling. I have not seen any real proof of this bombardment. It is just a word revolutionaries will repeat in every sentence. The area effected by the chemical attack is huge. Unless the whole Luftwaffe was blitzing them, the safest place for Syrians would be in their own beds. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Aug. 27 Gas Attack on Jobar?==<br />
[http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Activists-Assad-bombs-Damascus-in-renewed-chemical-attack-injuring-20-324508 Jerusalem Post, Aug 28]:<br />
:''Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime forces bombed the Jobar neighborhood in eastern Damascus with toxic chemicals in a mortar attack, Al Jazeera quoted activists as reporting on Wednesday.''<br />
:''The Syrian Support Group tweeted the use of poisonous gases on Free Syrian Army Soldiers, stating Assad's forces used chemical mortar shells on Tuesday against his citizens. ... Videos made by activists showed injuries from burns and people suffering from breathing difficulties. The Syrian Center for Information reported that all the victims are students.''<br />
<br />
== Alleged Proofs of Government Guilt ==<br />
Okay, sure, [[Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013#Government|there's no logic to it]]. But socialist-leaning secular Arab dictators who oppose Israel don't need logic. They just force us to destroy them and we destroy them. It's a basic pattern of nature we're as familiar with as the changing seasons. And of course, there's "mounting" evidence, some call it proof, to prove Assad or a general or anyone but the rebels is responsible. And of course you need good evidence when you're making a case with no logic behind it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== The Phone Call ===<br />
The intercepted call between Syrians said to prove the attack was first spoken of by a former Israeli Mossad agent and run in the German media. <br />
<br />
U.S. Foreign Policy magazine ran a detailed and widely cited piece about it on August 27/28, a week after the attacks: Exclusive: Intercepted Calls Prove Syrian Army Used Nerve Gas, U.S. Spies Say: The conversation is "the major reason why American officials now say they're certain that the attacks were the work of the Bashar al-Assad regime -- and why the U.S. military is likely to attack that regime in a matter of days." So just what was it? As they report:<br />
:''Last Wednesday, in the hours after a horrific chemical attack east of Damascus, an official at the Syrian Ministry of Defense exchanged panicked phone calls with a leader of a chemical weapons unit, demanding answers for a nerve agent strike that killed more than 1,000 people. Those conversations were overheard by U.S. intelligence services, The Cable has learned.''<ref name="FP">[http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/08/27/exclusive_us_spies_say_intercepted_calls_prove_syrias_army_used_nerve_gas Exclusive: Intercepted Calls Prove Syrian Army Used Nerve Gas, U.S. Spies Say] By Noah Shachtman, Foreign Policy magazine, the Wire, August 28, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
First, I'm not certain there even is a "chemical defense unit." But let's say there is, it's the basis of this whole exercise. <br />
<br />
Why is the caller panicked and asking questions? Panic suggests sudden realization, questions a lack of knowledge. If it was an order from the government, wouldn't he know about it? Perhaps not. That seems to be one of the questions:<br />
:''the intercept raises questions about culpability for the chemical massacre, even as it answers others: Was the attack on Aug. 21 the work of a Syrian officer overstepping his bounds? Or was the strike explicitly directed by senior members of the Assad regime? "It's unclear where control lies," one U.S. intelligence official told The Cable. "Is there just some sort of general blessing to use these things? Or are there explicit orders for each attack?"'' <ref name="FP" /><br />
<br />
Most important: '''the response is not specified. Why?''' If he said something like "yes sir, we gassed the rats, on orders from xxx," that would be included. They wouldn't say a guy called and asked, they'd say when he did that, he got confirmation, and they would be quoting it in exact translated words. It'd be in bold headlines '''"WE GASSED THE RATS."''' Conversely, if the response was negative, or just as surprised to even hear such a thing was reported, wouldn't that mean the government probably didn't do it? How many other types of response are there? Those are mainly it, and it seems more likely to have been the latter, since they were too embarrassed to include it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
<br />
Another possible issue, as [http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/uss-proof-syrian-army-chemical-attack-intercepted-call/68800/ the Atlantic Wire points out], is that the original source for the recording is a little unclear:<br />
:''the German magazine Focus spoke to an anonymous Israeli intelligence official, who claims that the intercepted phone call comes from intelligence gathered by one of their elite units. Foreign Policy, however, specifies that U.S. intelligence overheard the call.''<br />
::Neither claims to be borrowing a copy of the others' recording. Perhaps they both overheard it? I don't see why not. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
<br />
Possibilities:<br />
* Completely faked call: from the description so far and lack of clarity, it sounds unlikely to have been faked. This makes the commcenter in Qaboun possibly irrelevant as a clue - that would best help with placing a fake call and making it look real. <br />
* Real official, saboteur intent: A secret defector and total backstabber, he was paid to place a call that looks really suspicious. Perhaps why he, but not the guy answering, gets cited. However, you'd think he'd work in a really doomy and damning line worth a direct quote, if so. And that would probably be mentioned, which it wasn't. <br />
* Real official, double-checking, got no clear answer or even a denial: intel officials are twisting and essentially lying about the content, perhaps to let the president make his saber-rattling intimidation dance. <br />
* Real call, with a response that really did confirm the attack, and that just wasn't mentioned in the articles so far, for some reason. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
<br />
<br />
:: FOCUS is a miserable rag and the rest of the German media didn't run with the story. I think this is just part of bigmouth back-pedalling. T'wasn't the ebil Assad, just some rogue element, bla bla. I still think this is all just saber-rattling. UK is now presenting a UN resolution - didn't they say just yesterday that they don't need one? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Could be. I don't think it taints the story enough though. I could be wrong, but I tend to think the recording really does exist. Notes below. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
My further thoughts: I'm going with roughly the third option. I guess how they're presented makes that fairly clear. Reasons: I imagine a lot of communications are intercepted in this day and age. I don't know the details, but ... lots to comb through. It would be foolhardy to make up such a thing and be caught unable to prove it if that became important. And if you faked it, it would be something better than an unanswered panicked question, following panic-inducing global rumors of an action that threatened the nation's undoing. What I think is that the West will try to not release the call, because it will become clearer that the context was badly distorted. And it will dawn on a few people that there's a lot to comb through, they probably combed hard, and this is the best they could find. Conclusion: there was no order, likely no such action. Should shrivel next to the Russian satellite video, if such a thing existed. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Put simply, then: Alleged Proof = A dude was nervous. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Other===<br />
Is there other? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* Suspiciously swift opposition activist blog, bound to have accusations, news, clues, etc: http://www.facebook.com/ChemicalMassacre21082013 --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/1kry33/live_thread_stream_of_videos_coming_out_of/ Reddit page with collection of sources] posted early on before it made the rounds (14 hours before my post here which means around 2-3 AM UTC). First sentence: "I've spoken with the Associated Press, BBC and CNN; BBC and AP are here on this thread, using it to source information for a possible story." --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 16:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Al Arabiya seems to have been one of the first big ones to pick it up - First tweet announcing 280 dead [https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/370041481072869376 here] at 5:35 AM UTC. In the comments already the reddit guy linking to the thread above. 5:59 AM UTC, a [https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/370047549287043073 second tweet] with now 500 dead. Around an hour later, the first version of an article is [https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng/status/370061486862770176 announced]. That [http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/08/21/Syrian-activists-at-least-500-killed-in-chemical-attack-on-Eastern-Ghouta.html article] still says 500 in the link but now headlines 1300 dead. It's a patchwork of all kinds of "reactions" and "statements" thanks to apparently many edits. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/21/us-syria-crisis-gas-idUSBRE97K07O20130821 Activists say more than 200 killed in gas attack near Damascus] – Reuters, Aug 21, 2013 6:05am EDT<br />
:''Activists said rockets with chemical agents hit the Damascus suburbs of '''Ain Tarma''', '''Zamalka''' and '''Jobar''' before dawn.<br />
:''A nurse at Douma Emergency Collection facility, Bayan Baker, said the death toll, as collated from medical centers in the suburbs east of Damascus, was 213.''<br />
:''"Many of the casualties are women and children. They arrived with their pupil dilated, cold limbs and foam in their mouths. The doctors say these are typical symptoms of nerve gas victims," the nurse said.'<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=410503662391311&set=a.150495128392167.28686.121855461256134&type=1 SOHR Facebook, statement]<br />
:This takes as a given this a "regime" crime, based simply on reports (words) from people whose job it is to always say that. "The SOHR repeats the urgent call on the entire international community, in all its institutions, to put pressure on the Syrian regime to cease its attack on these areas, and to alleviate the ordinary civilians from the deadly consequences of its war." Some good comments, one by me anyway. <br />
::''When will the SOHR explain how it knows this massacre was "committed by the regime?" I'm presuming some toxic gasses were widely used in this rebel-infested area. As the timing and nature of this planned attack only suit the rebel cause, not the government's, the leap to the less logical presumption requires some explanation. Is it just that rebels said it was the other side? That's my suspicion. I'm presuming about 99% of rebels are innocent of this, but did they check with the local units of ISIS, al-Nusra, etc. - known to possess and use CW - and honestly rule out all provocateurs with an interest in false-flagging themselves into power? Why on earth would do that? So it must be the regime machine-gunning itself in the foot, gassing more people than ever just ten feet from the "inspectors" (investigators, actually)'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://observers.france24.com/content/20130822-chemical-weapons-claims-syrian-activists Chemical weapon claims: Two Syrian activists’ diverging viewpoints] – France24, August 22, 2013 <br />
:''Early on Wednesday, several rebel-held villages in the eastern suburbs of Damascus were '''heavily bombarded''' by the Syrian army. Activists from this village have accused the Syrian regime of using chemical weapons during this operation.''<ref name="ODV">[http://observers.france24.com/content/20130822-chemical-weapons-claims-syrian-activists Chemical weapon claims: Two Syrian activists’ diverging viewpoints] France24, August 22, 2013</ref><br />
::Good source and add, thanks. Worth a ref add. Half-skeptical, half-telling. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/22/why-syria-chemicalweaponsclaimsareunlikelytopromptusintervention.html Syria sarin claims unlikely to spur US military action] – Al Jazeera, August 22, 2013<br />
<br />
===Skeptical Sources===<br />
* Penny for Your Thoughts (truth exists; only lies are invented): [http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/chemical-attack-conveniently-staged-and.html "Chemical attack" conveniently staged and timed in Syria. Planned Staged Psy-op.]--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Hot Air.com: [http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/21/syrian-rebels-claim-assad-used-chemical-weapons-over-100-dead/ Syrian rebels claim Assad used chemical weapons, over 1000 dead] - but skepticism is still allowed. Some reasonable starter questions here. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/world/middleeast/syria.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&smid=tw-share&&pagewanted=all Images of Death in Syria, but No Proof of Chemical Attack], NYT, August 21, 2013. This is a much more level-headed article than I would have expected from the NYT so credit where credit is due and I put it here under "skeptical sources". Also a good summary. Interesting detail:<br />
:''At least [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=648713875152576&amp;set=a.228986480458653.65498.225790024111632&amp;type=1 one photograph] posted on Facebook by an activist showed what looked like a makeshift rocket. But loyalist militias and Hezbollah have both fired makeshift rockets at rebel positions in this war, and could presumably be suspects for any attacks with improvised rockets on rebel-controlled neighborhoods.''<br />
:--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/21/expert-casts-doubt-on-chemical-weapons-footage-from-syria/ Expert casts doubt on Syria chemical weapons footage] – Euronews, 21 August, 2013 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4GHMqONMo video])<br />
* [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-evidence-of-chemical-attack-seems-compelling--but-remember--theres-a-propaganda-war-on-8778918.html The evidence of chemical attack seems compelling – but remember - there’s a propaganda war on] – Patrick Cockburn / ''The Independent'', 21 August 2013<br />
* [http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/500506/20130821/syria-chemical-attack-accident-caused-free-syrian.htm Syria: Chemical Attack in Ghouta 'an Accident Caused by Free Syrian Army'] – GIANLUCA MEZZOFIORE / ''International Business Times'', August 21, 2013<br />
:''He added that the idea that the FSA is single and unified is "a myth," because "there are different factions and something like that could be a win/win for them: launch the attack and raise amount of profile of their cause by the UN."''<br />
::Sorry, timing, nature, etc. considered, accident is almost as stupid as the official story. Well, at about the mid-point between the extremes of plausibility we're faced with. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Kris Janssen, Media Work Group Syria, Aug 28: [http://mediawerkgroepsyrie.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/another-false-flag-operation-history-repeating-itself/ Another false flag operation, history repeating itself] --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== "Rebels did it" ===<br />
Obama [http://rt.com/usa/obama-chemical-weapons-syria-915/ seems] to be accusing al Qaeda for the attack:<br />
* [http://www.democracynow.org/2013/8/23/syrian_activist_on_ghouta_attack_i Syrian Activist on Ghouta Attack: "I Haven’t Seen Such Death in My Whole Life"] – ''DemocracyNow!'', August 23, 2013<br />
::''P.S.'' – Why did the ''New York Times'' chose to publish [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/world/middleeast/american-tells-of-odyssey-as-prisoner-of-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all this] today? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/23/syrias-al-ghouta-crime-the-real-story-of-liwaa-al-islam-chemical-rockets/ Syria’s Al-Ghouta Crime: The Real Story of Liwaa al-Islam Chemical Rockets] – Islamic Invitation Turkey, 23 August 2013 (Evidently translated from Arabic, no source given.)<br />
:''Why were the Europeans and Americans hesitant to take an action against Syria in the United Nations Security Council, in the alleged Syrian use of chemical weapons in Ghouta? Arab sources suggest that the US and Western missions had received the real story of chemical weapons. The story wasn’t officially distributed, but it is supported by Russian documents and satellite images of the battlefield, and Ghouta.''<br />
:''The images showed that the rockets were launched from Duma at 1:35 on Wednesday.''<br />
<br />
=== Facebook pages ===<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/ChemicalMassacre21082013?hc_location=stream مجزرة الكيماوي Chemical Massacre Syria] – 4,205 likes<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/CWMassacre.Syria Chemical Massacre in Syria - Massacre Chimique en Syrie] – 3,141 likes<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/aqpress.office AQ PRESS] (Al Queda Press Office) – 280 likes (This is not really related, but I will save the link here, as liking it on Facebook may not be a good idea. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC))<br />
<br />
=== Victims ===<br />
* [http://www.msf.org/article/syria-thousands-suffering-neurotoxic-symptoms-treated-hospitals-supported-msf Syria: Thousands suffering neurotoxic symptoms treated in hospitals supported by MSF] – Médecins Sans Frontières, 24 August 2013<br />
:''Three hospitals in Syria's Damascus governorate that are supported by the international medical humanitarian organisation Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) have reported to MSF that they received approximately 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in less than three hours on the morning of Wednesday, August 21, 2013. Of those patients, 355 reportedly died.''<br />
:''“Medical staff working in these facilities provided detailed information to MSF doctors regarding large numbers of patients arriving with symptoms including convulsions, excess saliva, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision and respiratory distress,” said Dr Bart Janssens, MSF director of operations.''<br />
:''Patients were treated using MSF-supplied atropine, a drug used to treat neurotoxic symptoms. MSF is now trying to replenish the facilities’ empty stocks and provide additional medical supplies and guidance.''<br />
:''“MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterised by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”''<br />
If 355 died at the hospital, it is conceivable there are another 1000 dead at the attack sites. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds compelling, but ... how do you get that many exposed, really? They have no people of their own -"reported symptoms," like the rest of us are getting - rebel doctor reports. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== 2011 ===<br />
* [http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-25/military-intervention-syria-us-training-rebels-2011-and-complete-grand-plan-march-20 "Military Intervention In Syria", US Training "Rebels" Since 2011 And The Complete Grand Plan - The March 2012 Leak] – Stratfor via Wikileaks<br />
:''They dont believe air intervention would happen unless there was enough media attention on a massacre, like the Ghadafi move against Benghazi.''<br />
<br />
=== "Assad did it" ===<br />
* [http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/chemical-attack-spurs-finger-pointing-inside-assad-regime Syrian chemical attack spurs finger-pointing inside Assad regime] – Phil Sands / ''The National'', Aug 26, 2013<br />
Interesting read, but the article does not contain a single verified fact. I prime example of how to construct "truth" from assorted half-truths and heresy. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;Intercepted phone call sources (to move)<br />
* [http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/krise-in-der-arabischen-welt/syrien/bundeskanzlerin-im-focus-interview-giftgasmassaker-in-syrien-merkel-fordert-zugang-fuer-un-inspekteure_aid_1080416.html Giftgasmassaker in Syrien: Merkel fordert Zugang für UN-Inspekteure]<br />
:''Der Giftgaseinsatz in Syrien mit mehr als 1300 Toten sorgt weltweit für Entsetzen – auch weil viele Kinder unter den Opfern sein sollen. Der israelische Geheimdienst macht Präsident Assad für das Massaker verantwortlich. Kanzlerin Merkel drängt im FOCUS-Interview auf eine rasche Aufklärung. Doch nichts geht ohne Moskau und Peking.''<br />
* [http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/25/israeli-intelligence-ties-syrian-gas-attack-to-assad/ Israeli intelligence ties Syrian gas attack to Assad] – Focus Online, 24.08.2013<br />
:''Israeli intelligence can tie the recent gas attack against the Syrian rebels to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime, the German publication Focus reports.''<br />
:''“According to the findings of Israeli intelligence community, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is responsible for the gas attack in Damascus,” reports the publication.''<br />
:''According to FOCUS, the Israel Defense Forces Unit 8200, the IDF’s signals intelligence unit, intercepted communications of the Syrian army during the attack.''<br />
* [http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/08/26/german-report-that-israels-nsa-affirms-syria-government-responsibility-for-chemical-attacks/ German Report That Israel’s NSA Affirms Syria Government Responsibility for Chemical Attacks] – RICHARD SILVERSTEIN, August 26, 2013<br />
:''The German weekly, Focus, is reporting that a “former Mossad officer” tells them that IDF Unit 8200 (Israel’s NSA) has intercepted Syrian government communications that confirms Assad’s responsibility for the recent chemical gas attack on a Damascus suburb that left more than 1,000 civilians, including many children, dead.''<br />
<br />
Now in English:<br />
* [http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/08/27/exclusive_us_spies_say_intercepted_calls_prove_syrias_army_used_nerve_gas Exclusive: Intercepted Calls Prove Syrian Army Used Nerve Gas, U.S. Spies Say] – Noah Shachtman / ''Foreign Policy'', August 27, 2013<br />
<br />
== What is the chemical agent? ==<br />
=== Not sarin? ===<br />
Médecins Sans Frontières claims that the cause of death is nerve agents. (See [[#Victims|Victims]] above.) Others disagree.<br />
* If it isn’t Sarin, what is it? ([http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/If-not-Sarin_then-what.pdf dead link]) – Background paper by Dan Kaszeta, 23 August 2013 <br />
**[http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf Revision August 26: PDF]<br />
:''The number of people affected indicates to me that whatever toxic substance was used, a large volume of material is needed. Whatever this was, there was a lot of it.''<br />
:''There is still no firm, conclusive evidence as to what the exact method of dissemination was responsible for dispersal of the mystery toxic substance. Was it rockets, missile warheads, artillery shells, mortar shells, a chemical tanker, aerial spray, aerial bomb, or some other means? Was it a mysterious wall of gas that drifted into the area?''<br />
<br />
The Jobar Medical Point doctor [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc explains] that people died because they sought sheller in cellars. (Was this because of simultaneous shelling?) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Creepy. He might be looking at real symptoms and offering an explanation that fits. What fired-outside rocket pours enough gas to seep into enough cellars to kill 1,000 or even 500, unless they were all crammed in a few well-placed cellars near the impact? I'm remembering the basement "shelters" people were massacred in in Daraya, vs. the basement shelters rebels had forced people into to protect them from shelling or massacres (see [[Daraya massacre#"Shelter" Captives and Basement Victims|here]]). See especially the last paragraph I just added. If there's sex segregation in the dead, ask why. If they were split up before death, get a chill. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More to the point, "What is the chemical agent?" I don't know. But a heavy gas creeping low, sinking into basements and trenches, sounds like chlorine as WWI saw it, for one possibility. If this description is even acurate. He says the gas is heavy, he might know his gasses. As noted around, it doesn't seem to be a persistent chemical like sarin, properly deployed in a pro manner; as with Khan al-Assal, first responders aren't protected and suffer no ill effects. Maybe different chemicals were used in different areas under different conditions, so no one answer will cover it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Studying symptoms would help, as long as non-fake videos are looked at. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDb0fI_pwE This one] seems completely real to me and fairly distressing (I've only watched a handful of videos so far). And FWIW, it seems to be a family together, not split up like prisoners. At least in this case. Not clear where this is. They ''say'' there's myosis, sarin-type pupil constriction. That's not in this video, but must be around. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
PDF: ''If it isn’t Sarin, what is it?'' Dan Kaszeta, Aug. 23 [http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf Revision August 26: ]<br />
:''Many of the principal indicators of nerve agent poisoning are not widespread or are present in confusing manners:''<br />
:''a. Some victims appear to have miosis (pinpointed pupils), but some of them are clearly having a bright light shined in their eyes. Some of the supposed examples are not pronounced.''<br />
Etc... --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The link above is dead. Kaszeta published a revised version of the PDF today, which is [http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pdf here]. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 17:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===FSA: Sarin, Ammonia, and "SC3"===<br />
One thing it probably wasn't is what an FSA spokesman said they believed it was. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/23/us-syria-chemicals-idUSBRE97M0U820130823 A Reuters report said]:<br />
:''“Not all of the missiles appeared to have carried chemical warheads, the FSA spokesman said, but those that did were suspected to have contained sarin, a Russian made nerve agent called SC3 and liquid ammonia supplied by Iran.” ''<br />
This chemical cocktail is geopolitically useful, implicating three bad guy nations in this attack on Sunni freedom activists. Likely Hexbollah provided the launchers or some other crucial element. But CRBN expert Dan Kaszeta (report, see above for latest version) finds the claim "suspect" and even "nonsensical" and "perverse." (see pp. 6-7) The deadly agent, carefully acquired and loaded, would be rendered inert by ammonia, he says; "'''Liquid ammonia will inactivate Sarin''' within seconds or minutes depending on the concentration." This combination would then be about as effective as putting neither chemical in. But then, you can't say the nothing was partly supplied by Iran, and this is a more sinister explanation for why the sarin won't show up in tests; "it was there to start with - they did this to hide it." As for the Russian chemical SC3, Kaszeta never heard of it. It could be a mistranslation, or someone else's name, but the Russians wouldn't call it SC3, he says, as C and S are the same letter in their alphabet. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Thermobaric weapon? ===<br />
This disciple of Brown Moses speculates that the weapon used is a thermobaric weapon.<br />
* [http://syriaanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/10/ Evidence at least part of Aug. 21st munitions were fuel air explosives, not chemical warfare munitions] – Matthew Asheville, "4 days ago"<br />
I too have speculated that Moses' mystery rocket is thermobaric. I am also not convinced it the rockets have anything to do with the alleged attack. One thing I am certain about: this piece is bollocks. Thermobaric weapons have nothing to do with hundreds of dead and dying children suddenly appearing outside MSF / FSA run hospitals, seemingly out of nowhere. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More thermobaric speculation: -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/08/25/preliminary-analysis-of-alleged-cw-munitions-used-in-syria/ Preliminary analysis of alleged CW munitions used in Syria] – N.R. Jenzen-Jones, August 25, 2013<br />
<br />
==Delivery system? ==<br />
=== BM-14 type 140mm rocket? ===<br />
The UN is studying the remnants of a Soviet 140mm BM-14 type artillery rocket of a type that can carry a 2,2 kg sarin payload. The fact that the rocket part is still intact points to no explosive warhead being used. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/were-un-inspectors-examining-chemical.html Were The UN Inspectors Examining A Chemical Weapon In Medmah Al Sham?] – Brown Moses, August 27, 2013<br />
<br />
=== Mortar rounds? ===<br />
The cheapest and most effective way would be to just pack the CW in mortar rounds. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.4thmedia.org/2013/08/28/new-york-times-attempts-to-bolster-kerrys-baseless-claim-that-syrian-government-used-chemical-weapons-on-their-own-people/ New York Times Bolster Kerry’s Baseless Claim That the Syrian Government Used Chemical Weapons on Their Own People] – The 4th Media, August 28, 2013<br />
<br />
== Russian satellite images? ==<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLeND1NURI Syrian Activist: Satellite imagery proves Syrian chemical weapons attack staged by rebels] – corbettreport, Aug 27, 2013<br />
:''Ayssar Midani, a French Syrian citizen and political activist, joins us from Damascus to talk about the latest developments in Syria. We talk about the history of the terrorist jihadi insurgency in the country and their prior use of chemical weapons, the latest attack and claims of satellite evidence proving that the attack was not launched by government officials, and the likely consequences of a US-led strike on the country.''<br />
<br />
[http://www.moonofalabama.org/2013/08/syria-the-most-popular-list.html Moon of Alabama] comment, Rowan Berkeley, #23, Description of a description of something reportedly amazing:<br />
:''This is out from behind the paywall, and I’ve watched it now. It isn’t on YouTube yet. But in fact it does not contain anything radically new. She names the local Jabhat al-Nusra commander, Sheikh Zahran Abdullah Alloush, as having ordered the firing of the two rockets with chemical warheads. In fact, Alloush is the commander of the Liwa al-Islam Brigade, based in Duma. He is a well-known and documented figure. She says '''the satellite imagery actually shows the rockets being fired, travelling and reaching their targets''', and that it has been given by Vitaly Churkin to the UNSC. She does not say whether satellite telephone communications from or to Alloush substantiating the claim were intercepted. The video evidence (and audio evidence, if there is any) has not been released publicly, and this is a typically Russian authoritarian mistake. They will not comprehend the fact that the world public has to be treated as an equal interlocutor in emergencies, not an object to be manipulated by competing rulers. There is nothing else of importance in this video, though of course it is all very interesting.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:You know, with a few minutes to sit on this notion, it does not sound right. This is satellite video that she describes, real time and discernable like a security camera video. Isn't that totally not how it normally works? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:42, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::This is very fifth hand information but contains important names and leads, at least for further Google searches. I was expecting all of this to have been reported elsewhere. I wonder why no-one has linked to it. Listening more closely, it may be that Ayssar Midani bases her information on the satellite images on what is reported by [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/23/syrias-al-ghouta-crime-the-real-story-of-liwaa-al-islam-chemical-rockets/ Islamic Invitation.] There was a more reliable source for this content, evidently translated from Arabic, but I cannot find it now. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: She says one rocket landed in Jobar and one in Muadamye, IIT says one landed in Jobar and one between Irbin and Zamalka. Differences in details. As to the satellite images and CL's question if that "isn't totally not how it works" - isn't it? Don't they have real time satellite images flow in very small intervals if not outright video these days? I don't know but I suspect they have. If so, the US of course have them as well. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 16:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Also, Duma and Harasta are known for some of the most heinous terror gangs around, remember those corpses they used in several states of decay for new "massacre marketing"? urs has followed their videos with extreme disgust, I recall. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 16:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What's Up With Jobar?==<br />
===Rebel CW Factory Busted?===<br />
[[File:Jobar chemical storehouse.jpg|thumb|Chemical bags from Saudi Arabia lying next to ammunition boxes]]<br />
* Islamic Invitation Turkey: [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/23/syrian-rebels-damascus-chemical-cache-found-by-syrian-army/ Syrian rebels’ Damascus chemical cache found by Syrian Army]<br />
:''The Syrian army has discovered a storehouse belonging to rebels in the Damascus area of Jobar, where toxic chemical substances – including chlorine – have been produced and kept, State TV reported. Military sources reported that the militants “were preparing to fire mortars in the suburbs of the capital and were going to pack missiles with chemical warheads.” A video shot by RT’s sister channel Russia Al Youm shows an old, partly ruined building which was set up as a laboratory. After entering the building, Syrian Army officers found scores of canisters and bags laid on the floor and tables. According to a warning sign on the bags, the “corrosive” substance was made in Saudi Arabia''<br />
<br />
Original source:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXezs1YY01I Toxic Catch: Syria rebels' chemical lab uncovered near Damascus] – RT, Jul 14, 2013<br />
<br />
:They made it sound like a new story. It did sound familiar, but I didn't know that catch well enough to recognize it. So, less relevant, but a point for overall intent and a bit of de-bunking a sort-of false story. By the way I think my glitch is solved (the damn router), with some hours to spare before I crash. Will FINALLY see what I can do here.<br />
<br />
::''Islamic Invitation Turkey'' is mainly recycled crap.<br />
::''P.S.'' – I did not recognize the story or the photo either. It was Google Image Search again that saved the day. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Jobar Attack or Not?===<br />
:Possibly relevant: wasn't Jobar almost the only suburb ''not'' reported as effected yesterday? Anyway, no proof this is "the" cache responsible for anything in particular, but a cache, suggesting intent, and intent some of them have [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/01/02/us-backed-terrorists-renew-threat-to-use-chemical-arms-against-syrians-and-damascus-govt/ allegedly] been talking about, practicing for, and implementing lately. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: Jobar wasn't prominently mentioned in the later news, but the very early reddit thread interestingly enough linked (exclusively) to two distinct wikimapia places in Jobar, see what I wrote a bit below under "Videos" about the different locations. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: ANNA News has been in Jobar on the day starting at 7:20 AM, filming the army offensive. In their video report which was now [http://apxwn.blogspot.de/2013/08/anna-news-im-c-waffen-freien-dschobar.html translated into German] they state about the CW campaign in the media that "in the first hours, if out of stupidity or desperation, Jobar gets named as the area where the chemicals have been used". And the translator links to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc this video statement]. Remarkably, all the maps created later don't mark Jobar as a target, and if one compares what's shown in the video (battlefield reduced to ruins), that's certainly not where the "doctor" is talking from. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 22:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::: Following the usual chain, syrianews.cc [http://www.syrianews.cc/syria-anna-news-jobar-chemical-weapons/ has translated] the German translation into English and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srmvYhUY6Z8 the ANNA report] has English subtitles now. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::The video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc A statement from Jobar's Medical Point regarding the chemical attack] "The front of Ain Tarma and Jobar in Eastern Ghouta was bombarded with chemical weapons. We noted the incident early, thankfully. We put ourselves on the highest alert." Mentions (rebel) "medical point" responses (since you can't trust regular Syrian medical staff to properly handle a "regime attack") -Zamalka, Douma, and Deir al-Asafir are mentioned. The casualties in Jobar were "massive." "We exhausted our supplies of atropine and hydrocortisone in Jobar." The 25,000 ampules were from there, all used up, he says on people there and I guess in Ain Tarma. He's been counting a lot that morning, thousands of different items already used up, and the sun's still not up (or is this from later on the 21st, or a dark basement?). He's very matter of fact, but clearly agitated, I guess, from how he sort of moves around and makes excited big eyes on a regular basis. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
:::::Video too long. Watching more now, at about 3:45, as he explains the mistakes people made putting themselves in basements, also some people started fires, I guess to keep warm in the August chill, leading to "undesired consequences." Especially so, those people who ''burned tires,'' mixing the gas fumes with "fires and burning tires," "putting tires on fire added insult to injury," especially for his responders, some of who died from all this, leading him to sob. He suggests an education campaign to tell people go upstairs and don'tburn tires when there's a gas attack. <br />
<br />
This is fascinating. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's a clue. I added Jobar, note, and link, to the front page intro. Jobar was attacked, no it wasn't, don't mention that place. Oops. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.538247&lon=36.366634&z=13&m=b Jobar on Wikimapia], for reference. I wasn't certain. Northeast Damascus, next to and just more central than the (alleged) stricken areas of east Ghouta. Too far to have easily hit Mouadamiya, if that even happened. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Rebel CW Tunnels Found?===<br />
Rinse and repeat, or something new? <br />
* [http://rt.com/news/rebel-tunnel-damascus-chemical-940/ Syrian soldiers find chemical agents in rebel tunnels near Damascus- state TV], August 24. The photo is from July 14. The story again cites Jobar. It says:<br />
:''Syrian army soldiers have found chemical agents when they entered rebel tunnels in Damascus suburb of Jobar, Syrian TV reports, adding that some of them started suffocating. Soldiers "entered the terrorists’ tunnels and saw chemical agents," state television quoted a "news source" as saying. "In some cases, soldiers started suffocating while entering Jobar," it said. "Ambulances came to rescue the people who were suffocating," it added. ''--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: This is new, [http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/syrian-army-finds-chemical-agents-rebel-hideout-state-tv also reported] by Al-Akhbar based on a Reuters item. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 12:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Did not take long to find this. Went to Google news search, it was the top story.[http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/24/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE97K0EL20130824 Syrian soldiers see chemical agents in rebel tunnels: state TV]. Next, the State TV report which should have images. Relation to recent events will remain uncertain, but worth knowing, obviously. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The relation to recent events is indirect: both are related to the SAA operation to retake the Eastern Ghouta. If Syria had some information that the rockets were launched from Jobar they might concentrate their operations there, in order to secure the launch site and possibly recover some of the hardware. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The footage from the "chemical warehouse" comes from [http://www.youtube.com/user/newsanna/videos ANNA News.] The original HD footage is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ehDWgEL-GI here.] I cannot see any proof for anything here. Yes, they have gas masks and atropine ampules, but that implicates Assad as much as anyone else. ("They knew Assad would gas them.") The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoCT81NcDnc&t=1m03s pro-rebel doctor] says he had 25,000 ampules of atropine he distributed. The chemicals could as well be used for producing explosives – or rocket fuel. The only thing I find sinister in the video is the steel cylinder in the very end, that seems to have distinctive nozzles of a Qassam rocket drilled into its boilerplate end. (Also seen at the end of [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712684592090826 this] video. [http://www.vatsaas.org/rtv/misc/aftclosure.aspx Earlier models] had real nozzles, but late models economized and [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3702088.stm simply drilled] the nozzles into a thick block of steel.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: "In addition to 1,600 vials of atropine supplied over recent months, MSF has now dispatched 7,000 additional vials to facilities in the area." - You linked that earlier at [http://www.msf.org/article/syria-thousands-suffering-neurotoxic-symptoms-treated-hospitals-supported-msf medicins sans frontiers]. The number of 25+ thousand seems to be far too high to be realistic. On the other hand, a new RIA Novosti item I can't find at the English version says in German that [http://de.rian.ru/security_and_military/20130824/266728540.html a large stock of anti-CW medicines was found at Jobar] - and it also referrs to the earlier news of "C-weapons stocks" found in the area. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:CW 8 21 Jobar Cache 1.png|right|260px]]<br />
Weapons non-expert, but what I think we see is several explosives-production elements here, plus chemicals (which?) and gear to prepare protect for exposure on your end. So it's not proof but fairly damning when the government has no motive and no proof, and the rebels have plenty motive and this. 1:44 in the ANNA video -aren't those electrical detonators/blasting caps/whatever? (three prepared) 1:38 (see right), several expendable metal canisters ready to be filled with .... fuel? A propane tank that can be filled with whatever and fired froma "Hell cannon." Grenades, old and white (?) Terrorist workshop, in my opinion, with chemical concerns.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::"Terrorist workshop"? More like freedom fighter workshop! :-)<br />
::I agree it is more likely rebels poses protective gear because of their own CW plans than because of a fear of SAA use of CW. This will however prove nothing to the general public, and even less prevent WWIII from starting on Tuesday. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Agreed on the last, meant to say that. It seems to ''us'' the rebels, not Syria, have been doing the gassing, so the gear is clearly to protect themselves from themselves and their colleagues. But to most people, it will be seen as at best "not proving anything" or showing their fear of regime gassing.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://sana.sy/eng/337/2013/08/24/498890.htm SANA report with nice clear photos]. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
[http://www.breakingnews.sy/article_en.php?id=24079 Breaking News.Sy] says 40 soldiers were left gasping in Jobar when a chemical rocket was fired at them. Possibly the same story, two versions. Also they say a Russian news crew arriving there was shot at, no injuries.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Videos ==<br />
[[File:Kafr Batna children.jpg|thumb|Screenshot from Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee video showing victims of chemical weapons attack]]<br />
My YouTube playlist:<br />
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUFEgCRhTevaLEr2inzR7jZM<br />
Brown Moses has a list with 120 videos.<br />
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T4NORTjYmPoNCHn2vCByvYG<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The earliest original videos seem to be coming from the Kvrbtna Coordinating Committee (تنسيقية كفربطنا):<br />
* http://www.youtube.com/user/syriafredoom/videos<br />
I have no idea where "Kvrbtna" is, but searching for the word [https://www.google.com/search?q=كفربطنا& in Arabic] only brings up massacre pictures and videos. (The logo on the videos says it is ''Kafar Batna City''.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Kafar Batna is [http://wikimapia.org/13898147/Kafar-Batna here] on the southern outskirts of Irbin (there's a "Al Fateh Hospital" central in the markation). The [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.529805&lon=36.336937&z=13&m=b&tag=516 two] [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.530592&lon=36.340542&z=14&m=b&tag=516 places] given by the reddit collection are at least two kilometers north-west of that in Jobar. The mentioned [http://wikimapia.org/1799110/Ain-Terma Ain Terma] and [http://wikimapia.org/22517314/Zamalka Zamalka] are in between.--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 20:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Excellent start here, Petri, thanks. No time left today. 120 videos? Will not be watching most of those. More soon. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/08/visual-evidence-syrias-poison-gas-attack-overwhelming-and-disturbing/68586/ The Visual Evidence of a Chemical Attack in Syria Is Overwhelming and Disturbing] – Dashiell Bennett / ''The Atlantic Wire'', August 21, 2013<br />
:''The government has officially denied using any such weapons, but the United Nations inspection team that arrived in the country on Sunday (to investigate previous claims of chemical weapon attacks) has been denied access to the site. As a result, the images below are the only evidence we have of the devastation — and there is a lot of evidence.''<br />
<br />
== Video analysis ==<br />
<br />
=== Amer mosa video ===<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUGrW-SjjbU first video] on the Brown Moses list is one that allegedly shows the nighttime launching of the chemical rockets on Eastern Ghouta. When I order my list by publication time, it turns out to be the earliest video on my list. YouTube metadata API [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/GUGrW-SjjbU says] the video was published 2013-08-21T01:09:55.000Z – that is 4 am in Syria.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUGrW-SjjbU لحظة اطلاق الصواريخ المحملة بلرؤؤس الكمياوية على الغوطة الشرقية حسبي الله ونعم الوكيل فيك يا بشار] (The moment of firing rockets charged chemical Ppleras on East Gouta God and yes you, O Bashar agent)<br />
*:Note the typo in the word ''chemical'' (الكمياوية) in the title, on Google it show all copies.<br />
The video is by someone who calls himself [http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4KAY_VfGH0StTflp8aTALA amer mosa.] He has four videos on his account, all uploaded within the last week. The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVH6jUX5vlU first] is some Islamist chant or prayer. The second shows a rebel group capture a huge cache of 9K38 Igla anti-aircraft missiles.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q90dw3pxn1s اليكم الدليل إغتنام صواريخ حرارية مضادة للطيران من اللواء 38 في درعا يتسأل الشهيد الذي قصفه الطيران] (Directory you seize the anti-thermal rockets from General Aviation 38 in Daraa Atsal the martyr who bombed Aviation)<br />
Three hours ago he posted his [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im49MbwZ5fc fourth video,] Al Jazeera instruction on how to protect oneself from chemical weapons. The videos suggest he is a Islamist fighter, possibly a foreigner who recently arrived through Daraa.<br />
<br />
The video of the nighttime launching of the rocket suggests that he (or who ever made the video) was part of the rebel group firing the rocket. I cannot quite understand the title, but I guess it says they are firing chemical weapons at Assad's agents. The timing of the video is also of interest. The video was uploaded before the news of the attack broke out. How could he have known that the rocket pictured was carrying a chemical warhead, unless he was part of the team? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Spooky pattern, cool find. I'll say hypothetically, they happened to be near enough and panned in to film a firing by the regime at midnight, drive to the attacked area, learn of the chemical gas, and knowing that, upload this so titled at 4 a.m. But I doubt all of that. I'm not sure on the title admitting to firing the missile, a good translation would be needed. I can say firing chemical missile, God, Assad agents are all mentioned. Did you save a copy? Spooky pattern-leaving travelers sometimes pull stuff back down. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Nighttime hospital scene ===<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U First video] starts from the outside, moves inside. Note the green water bottles used for pouring water on victims. These could help identify later inside footage. The first four videos are unlabeled: ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U 1,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de278-eftBA 2,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDb0fI_pwE 3,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_cxvCeVcu8 4]) A strap is hanging from the camera, helping to identify the cameraman. Starting from video 5 the uploads get a Coordinating Committee style logo, but are from the same set of footage: ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5Vby7TdnL8 5,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzpLeXcfNJk 6,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGOAmM1rN8s 7,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWhuHM2KifM 8,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrRsOzXwaw 9,] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO8_eZcZkNE 10]) One more unlabeled video ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO8_eZcZkNE 11]) seems to be from the same place, this one shows fighting age men in and around an operating room. One has a needle stuck to his neck, I suppose for injection of atropine. (See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_agent#Antidotes Nerve agent antidotes]) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 11:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Context ===<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de278-eftBA second] and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U first] videos in the Kafar Batna video set may be the only ones giving these events any context. They show civilians outside the hospital screaming and panicking. Some of them are wearing protection against gas. (The scarfs would be effective against tear gas but not nerve agents.) <br />
<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30meTj6z_hM latest] video from Kafar Batna is an interview of a very young boy: ''Child injured with poison gas and killed his father and lost his mother tells what happened on August 21''. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 13:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Dead girls in morgue ===<br />
[[File:Kafar Batna girls.jpg|thumb|Das Verbrechen des syrischen Regimes hat ein neues Kaliber erreicht!]]<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_cxvCeVcu8 This] unlabeled video, (number 4 in the above nighttime series) show the beginning of the pileup in the morgue. Note the distinctive blanket that is shown at the end of the video. It is also shown in the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbXbafI7cCw debunk video] discussed [[#It never happened?|below]] with more young girls piled up on top of it. The scene is a windowless underground room.<br />
::Same blanket, or same design, seen in Damascus suburbs. Possible clue, not strong. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The same girls, and the corner of the blanket are later shown at daytime, in a large well-lit room with some one hundred other bodies lined up. The video is also uploaded by Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee, this time with their ''Kafar Batna City'' logo:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkGa2jr9MBA أكثر من مئة شهيد من الذين اسعفو لكفربطنا فقط جراء القصف الكيماوي21\8] (More than a hundred martyrs who ''Asafo'' for Kafr Batna only by chemical bombardment August 21)<br />
*:Note the typo in the word (اسعفو = Asafo), should most likely be (اسعفوا = Asafoa?)<br />
<br />
::: "More than a hundred martyrs by chemical bombardment August 21, only from those who were rescued to Kafr Batna" [[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 19:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::If not a verb but a place, probably Deir al-Asafir, which is nearby. Interesting video. Note how at around 0:20-25 you see at least two men bleeding from the head executed from this chemical bombing. I do suspect prominent use of chemicals, but I think there's a little more mixing of methods here than they're letting on. The beefier ones who pull through, wake up and start choking you as you drag them to the truck -shoot that one, mix him in anyway.And the children... man. Looking at them, it seems they tend to be open-mouthed, heads back, trying to breathe. No slime/foam or discoloration. Could have been suffocated in an airtight chamber somewhere then brought here. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712844128742681 This] comment video on Facebook notes that many bodies in the morgue scene have syringes placed on them. The hospital staff seem to be injecting them with something, most like atropine. It may be that all the bodies are not dead yet.<br />
::Qatar-provided experimental serum to cure Muslims of Shi'ism? Sorry, couldn't help it popping to mind. I would not be totally shocked, but I guess that would only work on the living - which they almost must be, right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IkS3HIm6U first] video in the Kafar Batna set the victims are brought in into the same room that is later used as the morgue in the daylight scene. (Note the bombed-out windows.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== On site video ===<br />
By now we should see video of bodies ''in situ'' where they have died. Also we should see video of the attack sites; empty houses where people left in panic. All we see is bodies at the morgue. <br />
This leaves open the possibility that the victims where al-Nusra hostages, killed with teargas in some confined space, and brought to the morgue to die. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 19:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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:I haven't noticed any yet that seem to be from the crime scenes. Like video silence almost. Well, I haven't watched enough to say, but you're ahead and there seem to be few if any? That is suspicious. Various things can be said about the victims, the killers, and their methods, from seeing the types of homes they were killed, where and how, etc. As I mention above (maybe could move here), there are some clues I half-expect to see that the victims were herded into rebel run prison houses (for their protection) prior to dying there. I took it to [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/411643962277281 the SOHR Facebook page], first linking to the ANNA CW cache video, then "The reports that many died in their basements is fishy too. Rebels often put their captives in basements before some die there (ex: Daraya massacre). Best way to get masses gassed is to control them and gas all these basements directly. The big clue is gender separation. Any videos of the bodies as found? If the women and men are split up, they did not hide themselves there." And then a follow-up "Any videos of the bodies as found?" And if not, why not? I'm only seeing bodies at the morgue so far, or in trucks arriving out of what seems like a cloud of video silence that leaves me wondering." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This video gives some context:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o99sMiuYo-w Syria Father crying over his Children who were killed in the Chemical Attack on Eastern Gouta (+18)] – Bashar Assad Crimes Archive, Aug 21, 2013<br />
:''A father is shedding tears over his children who were killed due to the shelling on Eastern Gouta with chemical weapons by Assad's gangs. A great number of injuries was documented which is not less than 50 martyrs so far in this area. All of them died due to suffocation with poisonous gas. We urge the International Investigation Committee and the powerless world to see how Syria's children are getting killed with chemical weapons by the hands of an imbecile tyrant.''<br />
Interestingly the "father" is more interested in calling for the UN and NATO to bomb "Assad" than in the death of his daughters. One must thus conclude that this is a pure propaganda video and provides no evidence on the situation on the ground, apart from the fact that three people are dead.<br />
<br />
On closer inspection one must ask: '''why does the girl have an open stab wound on her chest?''' -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I watched this, forgot to comment. Pretty horrible, of course. He's saying he's her father, isn't he? I'm not buying it, too old. The dead guy next to the dead kids seems a better fit - in his undershirt. "It isn't my turn to eat today," her last words - that was a bit much. And yes, she does have a hole in her chest, right about over the heart. It almost looks like the old creep is sticking his finger in it at one point, and it seems wider after that. I could wonder about a medical reason -there are some conditions where you inject adrenaline into the heart with a giant needle, like in the movie Pulp Fiction. Otherwise, looks like an Islamist stabbed her in the heart with a small blade. Maybe they're Alawites really. Whatever, camera fodder for cannon pleadings. Callous baby-shakers, I hate these people. Hands off Syria, motherfucker! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Related, something I saw, can't relocate now: one sign of CW poisoning was children unable to recognize, specifically, their parents. This is supposedly a classic symptom. Maybe so, but there are other interpretations of a kid on activist video screaming "this isn't my father!" (for example, don't know what they're citing offhand - but at least living kids get to speak for themselves, at whatever risk) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Locations ==<br />
Via [http://www.moonofalabama.org/2013/08/syria-another-false-flag-chemical-weapon-attack.html#c6a00d8341c640e53ef01901ef21c95970b M of O:] ''The reported neighborhoods of this reported chemical attack in the Damascus Al-Ghouta area are: '''Hammuriyah''', '''Irbin''', '''Saqba''', '''Kafr Batna''', '''Mudamiyah''', '''Harasta''', '''Zamalka''' and '''Ain Terma'''. Those are rebel-held areas and have been all this year.''<br />
<br />
Looking at the two maps it seems the numbers listed are Hammuriyah: 300, Irbin: 64+17+16+30, Saqba: ?, Kafr Batna: 150, Mudamiyah: ?, Harasta: ?, Zamalka: 400 and Ain Terma: 75. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Ghouta CW map.jpg]]<br />
[[File:Googlrmap damas chimique.jpeg]]<br />
<br />
[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/08/26/world/middleeast/Areas-Affected-by-the-Alleged-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria.html?ref=middleeast&_r=1& NY Times interactive map]. Attack areas very close together, suspected launch site in Qaboun, but barely, almost in Jobar. And it shows Jobar hit, about ten blocks away from the launch site. Says UN investigators were attacked on the edge of rebel-infested Moadamiya SW of Damascus. [http://www.4thmedia.org/2013/08/28/new-york-times-attempts-to-bolster-kerrys-baseless-claim-that-syrian-government-used-chemical-weapons-on-their-own-people/ this article] says A map with a NYT article shows the launch site in a disputed area, which both Qaboun and Jobar are listed as. However, I didn't see the same map there, and it's very zoomed-out and imprecise. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Weather ===<br />
Weather in Damascus [http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/OSDI/2013/8/21/DailyHistory.html?MR=1 on August 21st:] steady wind from the west. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Mystery rockets ==<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/are-these-munitions-used-in-todays.html Are These The Munitions Used In Today's Alleged Chemical Weapon Attack?] – Brown Moses, 21 August 2013<br />
:''Large numbers of victims have been reported, and the following pictures have been posted online claiming to show two of the munitions used in the attack. What's extremely interesting about these devices is they match with devices previously recorded in the conflict, reportedly launched by government forces, with it's first appearance in Daraya, south-west Damascus on January 4th.''<br />
::That is a strange-looking device. Note he says "it seems likely these munitions have been '''manufactured inside Syria'''," which I guess both sides are capable of, and of course "local activists certainly seem to think they are related," and I would give them some credit for knowing the different parts of their psyop. But why such an odd part when it's been rebels building bizarre new weapons mainly? Why not use any of the stuff they've stolen that Syria technically still owns? Did Syria steal a multinational forces improv weapon and false-flag them with it? Specifics will help narrow down the possibilities. I plan to catch up a bit within the next few days. I also plan to pop in at this link for some comments. I've been well-received there. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Rocket impact site ===<br />
[[File:Ghouta Comp Map Jobar.png|right|420px]]<br />
I am trying to find the location of [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc6xL-N6f5M these] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uBpDxAoJA two] videos (+ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBKuVxggSJ8 one more]). It would help to establish the trajectory of Brown Moses' [http://imgur.com/a/1nziC mystery rocket.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I'm having a look. Seems semi-distinct and possible enough to narrow it down, maybe to one, but not guaranteed or easy. Can we even say what directions/time of day? I can only say either a bit before or a bit after mid-day? Doesn't help much. I'm comparing stills to some areas of Irbin, or will start in a minute. The furrows in that field, at 0:10 looking down them. If late morning, you're looking kind of north or perhaps northwest. If early afternoon, more like northeast. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Sorry, I meant 0:10 in the first video. I'm looking again, still not sure, but it seems to me that sun is pretty high, and this will all be a little closer to the middle, north-south orientation of the range, or looking primarily north at 0:10. Maybe? What we need is a good elevation estimate and from that narrowed time/azimuth options. I don't know what to say - greater than 45 degrees, well under 90. Maybe 60 degrees? Petri? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 03:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::I think the flight path is perpendicular to the furrows in that field and the building wall. The building is facing north or southwest depending on whether it is am or pm. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::[https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Damascus,+Syria&hl=en&ll=33.539535,36.375754&spn=0.004552,0.009366&sll=47.272986,-120.882277&sspn=3.794172,9.591064&t=h&hnear=Damascus,+Damascus+Governorate,+Syria&z=17 here's a spot] to discuss. Not the one, but perhaps that shape and orientation of a field (or flipped on the N-S axis), bounded by buildings on left and right, pretty big, tall one(s) on the right, open space to the north. It's the major road on the south side at least that doesn't fit. Also, note how the (right, damaged) buidling(s) is not continuous, but has a split or recess in the middle. That should appear too. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Brown Moses and team have figured out the impact site in [https://plus.google.com/u/0/108344897173120412718/posts/6hfwLTS7dAr this] discussion thread on Google+. The location is not in Irbin, as suggested by the original video upload originating from the Irbin CC, but futher south in Zamalka. As I initially suspected, the building wall is facing due north, meaning that this is also the direction where the rocket came from.<br />
:Note: the spot is included in the inset image, comparison map: app. strike areas orange, rocket #197 as labeled, identified strike area in the red X. Jobar indicated, with parts that are about north. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
A thorough analysis of the pictures can be found in this pro-Kurdish blog. The analysis confirms the direction: NORTH.<br />
* [http://thekurdishcause.blogspot.fi/2013/08/analysis-on-origin-of-cw-missile-191.html Analysis on the origin of CW missile #197 that landed in Ghouta, Syria.] – August 25, 2013<br />
I am still not convinced this is a chemical rocket and even if it is, it has anything to do with the hundreds of deaths. If the damage to the wall of the nearby building is related to a blast from the rocket, then I suspect the mystery rocket is a thermobaric weapon. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
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''P.S.'' – I had a closer look at the photos. I now think the angle of impact is at a 40 degree angle to the east-west furrows, making the direction from northwest. This would make Jobar and Qaboun possible origins for the rocket. (I do not think it can fly much over 2 km.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::You'd better make it from the northwest, because everyone's saying north=SAA. ;) I had a look at all this. What a weird-looking bend. Are we sure that means it didn't come almost straight down? Somehow that would help explain it, to me. I'm not 100% on [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=%2B33%C2%B0+31%27+14.62%22,+%2B36%C2%B0+21%27+26.81%22&ie=UTF8&ll=33.520811,36.357547&spn=0.002281,0.005284&t=h&z=18 the spot chosen], but it is an uncanny fit for the images. Tricky, not even in Irbin and barely in Zamalka.The map shows e-w here is a couple degrees off, towards the west. So right there, 360 is actually 258 or so. Jobar to the northwest is one area that's sort of in the middle of all these, as [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cuQB3-FTo1U/UhnT_Vmf0MI/AAAAAAAAAB0/sNiS5TKBUcI/s1600/Ghouta_chemical_attack_map.svg.png the Wikipedia graphic shows].--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::There is a mound forming on the side of the crater where the rocket head is buried or where the earth has moved sideways. It is pointing some 30 to 40 degrees east from due south. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Brown Moses does a thorough visual comparison of the alleged impact site to the video: 100% match.<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/finding-exact-location-of-alleged.html Finding The Exact Location Of An Alleged Chemical Munition, And What It Could Mean] – 26 August 2013<br />
<br />
=== Qaboun rocket lauches ===<br />
[[File:NYT Aug26 map.png|thumb|[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/08/26/world/middleeast/Areas-Affected-by-the-Alleged-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria.html?ref=middleeast&_r=1&''NYT'' map] from August 26 places a "suspected rocket launch site" at the southwestern corner of Qaboun.]]<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTV23jYn9US1AT7Va8R-uXg Qaboun MediaOffice] is publishing videos of rocket launches from some clearing in the residential area of Qaboun. I understand these to rebel rockets. (Overall I doubt if the SAA ever uses rockets for anything. It would only produce random shelling, and we have never seen proof of that. "Assad gangs" seem to be using [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8dqnXpsUA heavy artillery.])<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsXdxbvAuE~ هـااام جدا || القابون - لحظة إطلاق الصواريخ من ثكنة الوحدات الخاصة نحو الغوطة الشرقية 25-8-2013] (Haaam very | | Kaboun - the moment of firing rockets from the special units towards the barracks East Gouta 25/08/2013)<br />
:The correct translation would be: ''Qaboun - rockets being fired from the barracks of the Special Forces towards East Gouta 25/08/2013''. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The title of the videos refers to the SAA Special Forces HQ located in the middle of Qaboun. The implication is is that the rockets were fired by "regime" forces. Qaboun, including most likely the Special Forces HQ, has however been on rebel / al-Nusra control from June 2013. See [[#Special Forces Headquarters|Special Forces Headquarters]] below. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This looks almost like a smoking gun! Nighttime launch of rebel rockets from Qaboun to East Ghouta. Uploaded on August 22.<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QChtV9yg_2U الصواريخ التي تطلق من الواحدات الخاصة في حي القابون بدمشق باتجاه الغوطة الشرقية] (Rockets fired from special units in Kaboun neighborhood in Damascus toward East Gouta)<br />
*:Note the typo in the word "الواحدات". Should be "الخاصة" = unit.<br />
The daytime videos show rockets being launched towards the west or southwest, thus in the direction of East Ghouta. Now, before even exploring the CW aspect of this, one must ask, '''why are rebels in Qaboun firing rockets at rebels in East Ghouta?''' -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 08:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Comparing this video to the [[#Amer mosa video|Amer mosa]] video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QChtV9yg_2U uploaded] to YouTube 4 am on August 21st, claiming to show chemical rockets fired at East Ghouta, I think it may show the same launch site, maybe even the same rocket. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I am trying to locate the launch site. The ''Markaz Rif Dimashq'' mosque targeted by SAA fire in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8dqnXpsUA this] video is [https://plus.google.com/111963505860127063940/about?gl=US&hl=fi%3Fgl=US here.] The launch site is about <s>[https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.549235,36.334727&spn=0.002213,0.004128&t=h&z=19 here.]</s> (No, not there, but 100 meters to southwest, in the parking lot [http://goo.gl/maps/4NY72 here.]) I still have not figured out where the camera is located. Could be as far away as the bombed out high-rise tower in the northwest corner of Jobar. The distance from this launch site to the [[#Rocket impact site|crash site]] of rocket #197 is 3810 meter in direction 146,25 degrees. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The location match looks good - I keep being ready to try but someone else gets it. Where filmed from, less important, somehwere pretty tall. That's a government-run site normally? I see trucks and stuff. One important problem though: the title translation you got was jumbled. Go word-by-word and it's more like special units barracks firing towards Ghouta. Special alone translates private. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::The large building in the background is the Tishreen Military Hospital. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More rocket launches from Qaboun: -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 09:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s4EB_AR5Ng القابون | لحظة إطلاق صاروخ أرض أرض من الوحدات الخاصة باتجاه الغوطة] (Qaboun | Launching surface-to-surface missile from Special Forces base towards Ghouta) – Aug 25, 2013<br />
:If this is the video I watched earlier and I'm reading it right, this isn't firing towards East Ghouta but kind of west and probably a bit south, maybe Moadamiya etc. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Special Forces Headquarters ====<br />
Wikimapia says the launch site is the parking lot of the [http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.544149&lon=36.330779&z=16&m=b&show=/22166796/Headquarters-of-the-special-forces Headquarters of the special forces (Damascus).] This absolutely, without any doubt '''proves Assad did it!!!''' (Or then this is all a part of a deliberate, well planned false flag operation.)<br />
<br />
Maps published by the pro-Assad blogger Syrian Perspective however show that Special Forces HQ was in FSA / al-Nusra hands on August 16 – or the very least, highly contested. In fact this other Qaboun CC [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8dqnXpsUA video] shows the SAA shelling the area, including mosque, just south of the parking lot with heavy artillery in August 24. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 13:03, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTRsoOxRE1Q Another video] from the 18th talks about Qabon under siege of the army. documents.sy [http://documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=719&lang=en reports fierce clashes on the 16th]. On the 21st, SyrPer (is that the same one doing the maps on FB?) [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.com/2013/08/first-post-august-21-2013-syrian-high.html brags] that Qaboon and those "trapped inside" is about to fall and elaborates:<br />
<br />
::''The news is in and its not good the apes of Arabia or their terrorist mercenary rodent kin in Syria. Finally, the Syrian High Command is optimistic about the next 24 hours in both Barza and Al-Qaaboon. These two abandoned suburbs are falling into the hands of the SAA. Tunnels underneath the two areas have been discovered and closed down leaving the rats with only surface pathways out. They are also being closed. Monzer is in Damascus and tells us that the numbers of dead rodents in these two areas exceed 230 at the present.''<br />
: Doesn't sound like the SAA controlled the city centre while those rockets were fired. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Okay, then. Impressive turn-around. I'll say Qaboon is a good sized area with room for numerous control situations at once, in its sub-areas. Shelling the mosque area could be to protect this base, or to rive people out of an area they control including that and the base. The map is not a good indicator. But being "abandoned," if true, might mean even by the military. Rebels could and would run it all. I'll say it's contested. And to about there, or maybe Jobar, somewhere mostly north but a bit west, seems where the tail of that rocket came from. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Who controls Qaboun? ====<br />
[[File:Damascus June 17 2013.jpg|thumb|Damascus June 17 2013]]<br />
[[File:Damascus August 16 2013.jpg|thumb|Damascus August 16 2013]]<br />
Qaboun and Jobar are important, as the main highways north from Damascus pass between them and Irbeen in East Ghouta. Syria's largest double cloverleaf intersection sits just east of Qaboun. Controlling the area means the rebels could block all traffic north from Damascus. I have often wondered how this effects the strategic situation? Is civilian traffic able to pass on the main '''M1''' motorway? (Update: This July 16 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwoXrYVFLZc ANNA news footage] shows the civilian traffic does in fact flow freely past Qaboun, kind of. :-)<br />
<br />
Syrian Perspective's two maps would indicate that Jobar (Jawbar) and Qaboun (al-Qaboon) are the only place rebels have made progress in the summer of 2013. The June 17 map show an attack over the cloverleaf intersection and the August 16 map rebel control (green) in Qaboun. At the current state of the war, most rebel advanced are done by al-Qaeda-linked groups or hard lined Islamists. Regular "[[FSA]]" revolutionaries are at best capable of holding rebel-held populated areas. The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srmvYhUY6Z8 ANNA report] from August 21 described the rebel forces holding Jobar as "elite units" of al-Nusra. I presume the rebel forces in Qaboun have similar allegiances.<br />
<br />
The current situation in Qaboun is best described by a comment on Syrian Perspectives August 21 blog post posted by Parviziyi on August 24. (Parviziyi is an Assad supporter and a regular [https://www.facebook.com/notes/bodhibrian-souter/parviziyi-that-syrias-leadership-has-the-support-of-most-syrians/221534611280236 contributor] to ''Moon of Alabama''.)<br />
<br />
: [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.fi/2013/08/first-post-august-22-2013-syrian-army.html?showComment=1377357524328#c8572343920619192157 '''parviziyi – August 24, 2013 at 8:18 AM''']<br />
:''I've largely quit reading this blog. But there's an item above that jogged my memory from when I was reading the blog more regularly, a month ago. Ziad wrote above with date 22 Aug 2013: "We predict the fall of Al-Qaaboon shortly, i.e. withing the next 4 days." On 12 Jul 2013 Ziad wrote: [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.ie/2013/07/second-post-july-12-2013-al-qaaboon.html "AL-QAABOON LIBERATED COMPLETELY".] On 17 Jul 2013 Ziad wrote: [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.ie/2013/07/first-post-july-17-2013-barza-and-al.html "AL-QAABOON ON THE VERGE OF PURIFICATION".'']<br />
<br />
:''He made similar bald assertions in July and early August about Damascus Jowbar district, Homs Bab Hood district, and (more ridiculously) the entirety of Idlib province. When Ziad writes assertions like that, Ziad truly doesn't know what he's talking about.''<br />
<br />
:''In the fighting in Al-Qaboon we know that the Syrian army has got bigger and better weaponry and more men on the ground than the rebels have. But the question of whether Al-Qaboon will "fall" is a question of whether all the rebels with decide to withdraw from the area and stay withdrawn from it, and decide to concentrate themselves in another area in Damascus. And Ziad has no information basis whatsoever for answering that question.''<br />
<br />
:''And if Al-Qaboon "falls" it may mean very little. The Al-Qaboon-Jowbar area a warzone depopulated of all civilians, or almost all. There are a number of other neighborhoods in Damascus that are heavily populated and almost normal today. If you were a rebel in Damascus city and you had your choice between either (a) retaining your fighting presence in the largely empty and desolate Al-Qaboon-Jowbar neighborhood or (b) destroying law and order for hundreds of thousands of civilians in some other Damascus neighborhood, which would you pick? which option would more effectively advance the goal of bringing down government? If it were to turn out that Al-Qaboon does "fall" shortly, it'd no way indicate that Ziad had the slightest intelligence on what he's talking about.''<br />
<br />
Parviziyi then continues with the topic:<br />
:''From rebels sources it is clear that the rebel fighters that have been in Jobar-Qaboon since early Spring 2013 (and before) are with the [http://www.youtube.com/user/tahreralsham/videos ''Tahreer Al Sham brigade''] and that's same brigade that is fighting there today.<br />
<br />
He links to [http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/most-important-events-indamascus-province-for-thursday-2282013/ this 22 Aug 2013 post] by ''YallaSouriya'', which names another brigade also active in Jobar the day: [http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCMeCkFPWYpoDgy0pLwJ9Fg/videos ''Abu Thar Al Ghafari FSA brigade''.]<br />
<br />
I am sure a search for ''Qaboun'' and ''Special Forces'' would produce rebel videos of the launch site, most likely with FSA / al-Qaeda in control. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 06:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
;August 20:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQsER6Saijs أورينت نيوز..الثوار يحررون مبنى الاتصالات في القابون] (Orient News .. rebels liberate a telecommunications building in Kaboun) – TelevisionOrient, Aug 20, 2013<br />
:I couldn't tell what footage is from where or get a location on this comms building. Seeing the inside, I wonder if this is where that confirming call the Israelis picked up was placed from? That could be almost as damning as the missile launch itself. Wasn't it the following early AM, less than 24 hours after this footage, that it would've been placed? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I knew the Israeli claim was bogus, I did not know whether it was the Israelis or the FSA in Syria who provided the falsified information. You are right to take note of this. Capturing a communications building the day before for the purpose dissipating false messages is yet another indication of the thorough planing and enormity of the conspiracy. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I am not really following the details here, yet, but it sounds good, well worth pursuing. I will add a thought. Anyone presented with this theory, and inclined to doubt it for complicating the cool regime-blame thing, will ask this: "If rebels took over the missile base, why wouldn't the government tell us? Especially when it's said the rockets hitting Ghouta came from that base?" It's a good question. I could offer maybe they didn't know (not likely) maybe they're embarrassed (but clearly should get over it), afraid it wouldn't be believed, would sound like a dodge and an admission it was their base that fired it or, maybe, it never was taken over. Or they did tell us, but the fact has been completely obliterated from our telescreens. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Facebook celebrations ==<br />
<br />
There has been an odd element in the early reports of SPIEGEL this morning ... "Assad supporters celebrate" was part of the news. In the article(s) (they publish a lot of newly assembled versions of their stuff over the day) [http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/syrien-opposition-berichtet-von-mehr-als-tausend-giftgas-opfern-a-917781.html they report] that "Harasta News Network" published a statement that "On orders of President Assad, may God protect him, and on orders of proud Syrian Alawite Officers, this morning at half past five East Ghouta was attacked with Chemical Weapons and the operation was finished successfully. We are awaiting details of the operation in the next hours". (my translation of what you find in the last paragraph of the German language article). At 10:30 AM (not specified for both if German or Syrian time zones) "the site was taken from the net" (sic) Also, they claim, a facebook page called "Shohdaa.alwatan" claimed that 500 died in a "cleansing operation". A search for "Harasta News Network" only gave a small number of indifferent results, most of them German news articles quoting SPIEGEL. Maybe worth investigating - I don't do facebook. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 00:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Clearly, this sounds like a pretty fishy allegation. Someone may have actually even typed that into an actual loyalist site, etc. Just like you can with John Snow's blog. To me, it only shows that someone in the opposition knows they need some supports here, quick. This admittedly doesn't make much sense. Consider this desperate activist explaining it all ([http://observers.france24.com/content/20130822-chemical-weapons-claims-syrian-activists (Observers France 24]): "I think the regime doesn’t care that the UN inspectors are less than 5 kilometres away. On the contrary, by carrying out these bombings despite the observers’ presence, they’re sending a crystal-clear message to the international community." He doesn't say just what the message is supposed to be, other than that it's so super clear some are mistaking it for an obvious false-flag operation. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== U.N. Investigator Response ==<br />
This is an area to watch closely, and maybe worth some discussion and thought. It's thorny stuff. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Obviously, the U.N. chemical weapons inspection team had just arrived not two days before this to start a two-week mission. They were based in a Damascus hotel less than 5 km away from one activist who said "I think the regime doesn’t care that the UN inspectors are less than 5 kilometres away. On the contrary, by carrying out these bombings despite the observers’ presence, they’re sending a crystal-clear message to the international community." <ref name="ODV" /> (exact alleged message unspecified) Similarly, CNN reported this taunt: <br />
:''"The inspectors will not come," said a resident who didn't want his real name used. "If they wanted to come, they would have come a long time ago. The Assad regime determines where the inspectors go, and they will not let them go there. There is already a siege around Eastern Ghouta from the Assad regime."'' <ref name="CNN1">[http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/world/meast/syria-civil-war/ Syrian activists: Videos show chemical weapons used] By Samira Said and Ashley Fantz, CNN, updated 8:27 PM EDT, Wed August 21, 2013</ref> --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
From a Washington Post report:<br />
:''Ake Sellstrom, the Swedish scientist who heads the U.N. inspection team in Syria, told the Swedish media that he had seen only the television images of the alleged attacks. "But the high number of wounded and dead they are speaking about sounds suspicious,” Sellström told Swedish news agency TT, via telephone from Damascus. “It sounds like something one should take a look at.” <ref name="WP1">[http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-pro-opposition-groups-claim-dozens-killed-in-poisonous-gas-attack-near-damascus/2013/08/21/8bd0791a-0a2b-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html Head of UN chemical weapons team in Syria says he wants to look into latest gas attack claim]Washington Post, August 21, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
And of course, Western powers are demanding exactly that the "inspectors," as activists keep calling them, be allowed to cruise over there and somehow find out if CW were used, but carefully not decide by whom. The pull of events sucking Sellstrom's team into the (rebel-infested false-flag free-fire) zone is immense. They are being played up as heroes - inspirational non-Muslim ones! - who would be immensely mourned if they did show up and see the truth, only to be gassed by "the regime" before they escaped with the truth. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
That's a possible plot, however likely, that might be part of why Damascus won't let them go. As Fabius said, Assad would be caught "with his hand in the till" and NATO bombing would be the most logical next step. So to avert that, maybe Damascus will have to let them go to ... Arbin to Zamalka, what, 8-9 places? By the time it's done, two weeks will be long passed. Or they will get gassed too on the third stop, and "Assad" will be caught hiding the truth, and thus, same next logical step. Or, Syria promises to let them go, once the surrounding countryside is cleared again, which will take way more than three weeks. In case any witnesses in Khan al-Assal remain alive, no one will come talk to them.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Rebel Orders From Aleppo===<br />
: An "operations room" in Khan Al-Assal has issued [http://www.documents.sy/image.php?id=2374&lang=en a statement] demanding that the Investigators first go to Ghouta, or else they won't get access to Khan Al-Assal. The [http://rt.com/news/syria-chemical-attack-cooperation-841/ Russians say] Syria is ready for "maximum" cooperation. Maybe your first suspicion among the line of "dead investigators are bad for Damascus" was spot on. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Fascinating twist there. They are really being pushed, geographically, to this spot(s), in a palpable way that's ominous. Also, distracting from Aleppo is central, and this helps show that. Statement should continue: "if you go to Gouta first - ALL sites and there are five more we forgot to mention - and get here, alive, we promise to cooperate fully, and that if anyone gasses you here, it will be the regime, not us." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Investigating Ghouta===<br />
By the 25th, almost one week into their two-week mandate (possibly will be extended), it was announced the team would go to the sites of the recent attacks. <br />
* [http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=7041 New York, 25 August 2013 - Statement Attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria]<br />
:''On 24 and 25 August, the High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, Ms. Angela Kane met with senior officials of the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic. The purpose of her visit was to seek cooperation of the Government in facilitating an expeditious investigation of the incident in the Ghouta area on 21 August involving the alleged use of chemical weapons.''<br />
<br />
:''The Secretary-General has instructed the Mission under Dr. Sellström, currently in Damascus, to focus its attention on ascertaining the facts of the 21 August incident as its highest priority. The Mission is preparing to conduct on-site fact-finding activities, starting tomorrow, Monday, 26 August.''<br />
<br />
:''The Secretary-General notes the Government of the Syrian Arab Republic affirmed that it will provide the necessary cooperation, including the observance of the cessation of hostilities at the locations related to the incident. ... The Secretary-General would like to reiterate that all relevant parties equally share the responsibility of cooperating in urgently generating a safe environment for the Mission to do its job efficiently and providing all necessary information.'' <ref name="UN825">[http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=7041 Statement Attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria] UN. New York, 25 August 2013</ref><br />
<br />
So they drive over there - just where I'll have to see. First thing, [http://news.yahoo.com/damascus-gives-green-light-un-chemical-arms-probe-131621829.html unidentified snipers] shoot at the lead vehicle several times, forcing them to give up and go back. Clearly the regime trying to stall them, right? No one dead yet. Gassing won't work outside a basement prison, I decided, so shooting or other hard hits will have to do it if they want to have the regime off these guys. Maybe another try tomorrow. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:41, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:They should just visit the Special Forces Headquarters parking lot. See who's firing the rockets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 12:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Not safe. That's where the snipers were shooting from. ;) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== U.S. Response ===<br />
The U.S. response is interesting. Citing Los Angeles Times: [http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-inspectors-20130826,0,4207088.story U.S. dismisses Syria's inspection offer as 'too late']: <br />
:''The Obama administration dismissed Syria's offer to allow inspectors access to the site of a suspected chemical weapons attack as having come "too late" and declared there was "very little doubt" the government had used poison gas against civilians...'' <br />
or in essence, it's too late for facts to disrupt this total certainty. Who knew it had a gestation period less than five days? Now we can never go back, no matter what the facts say. There is and can be no real doubt. Ever, again. Clearly, there is theatrics to the "tioo late" blustering. It makes little to no factual sense, but has an emotional impact, a big threatening shout at an insane pitch, designed to shake Syrians into defection and disarray. Problem is, it's been done incessantly at so many volume levels, even this - loudest yet though it is - they might remain immune. <br />
<br />
So is actual full-on conflict on the way? I think the signs say no. Consider:<br />
:''a senior administration official, in a written statement given to reporters on condition of anonymity, brushed aside the Syrian offer...''<br />
Is that deniability? Could be, if needed. More hedging even now? Especially now? <br />
:''Despite the assertion of "little doubt," the administration has not presented any evidence of its own that the Syrian government carried out such an attack, instead citing public reports made by others.''<br />
They don't have John Kerry holding up a report and a vial of powder at the U.N., claiming the hardest proof ever the regime dunnit. So far it seems more "it's worth another try" at threats, than a real drive to war. I hope I'm right on that. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On to the logic of the dismissal: It won't hold up. <br />
:''"If the Syrian government had nothing to hide and wanted to prove to the world that it had not used chemical weapons in this incident, it would have ceased its attacks on the area and granted immediate access to the U.N. — five days ago," the official said. By now, the government has had many opportunities to destroy evidence, including by shelling the areas, the official noted.''<br />
Five days of shelling renders a site worthless? Why didn't anyone mention that when they were insisting Syria grant access to a dozen or more sites of alleged attacks dating back sometimes to December? One of those - Homs, Dec. 23 - was on the investigators' itinerary at the moment this major distraction blew up all around them just a few days ago. When was that going to be cancelled for being months too late? The government was still hoping to have Khan al-Assal looked at, five months after they first asked for this investigation. But the U.S. gets all snippy when it takes five days, in the middle of a war zone full of ... problems. Perhaps they're afraid that, after all the bluster about how they'd better get over there, there will be no clues implicating the regime. But they were there a few days ago, everyone's pretty sure, and they're already so convinced that actual gathered facts would just be anti-climactic and a buzzkill. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Motives? ==<br />
Here is my first draft on the motives of the parties to commit the act. The section should be moved to article space after, maybe some minor editing. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Rebels ===<br />
While the Western public is eager to believe the "evil tyrant" Assad "gassed his own people" it is equally difficult to believe the "freedom fighting" rebels would have murdered 1800 Syrian civilians. There are however at least four major reasons why the rebels would gain or benefit from the gas attack.<br />
<br />
;1) Blame Assad<br />
The first round of reporting on the incident has almost exclusively followed the rebel narrative and blamed the "Assad regime" for the attack.<br />
<br />
This is no coincident, but follows a carefully rehearsed choreography – from the the al Bayda massacre in Cyrenaica, Libya on February 22, 2011 that triggered UNSC resolution 1970 on Fabruary 26, to the Houla massacre in Taldo Syria. Every time the Western led "international community" has accused "oppressive regimes" when the real culprits have been Islamist revolutionaries.<br />
<br />
Ultimately the aim of the aim of the rebels is to get the West to intervene in the war on their side.<ref>[http://rt.com/op-edge/us-syria-chemical-weapons-intervention-854/ US, UK looking for pretext to escalate intervention in Syria] – RT, August 22, 2013<br />
</ref><ref>[http://rt.com/news/us-missile-attack-syria-929/ US readies possible missile strike against Syria - report] – RT, August 24, 2013</ref> If that fails, at least it boost their support among the Western audience. At a minimum it will lead to calls for a ceasefire<ref>[http://www.democracynow.org/2013/8/23/syrian_activist_on_ghouta_attack_i Syrian Activist on Ghouta Attack: "I Haven’t Seen Such Death in My Whole Life"] – ''DemocracyNow!'', August 23, 2013</ref> – likely to be to the rebels advantage.<br />
<br />
;2) Distract UN investigation<br />
:''See [[#U.N. Investigator Response|U.N. Investigator Response]] above.''<br />
<br />
;3) Part of Al-Qaeda WMD program<br />
It has always been known, or at least suspected, that al-Qaeda has a WMD program. The purported aim of such a program is to repeat 9/11, conceivably on a much larger scale.<ref>[http://jcpa.org/article/syrian-chemical-weapons-and-al-qaida/ Syrian chemical weapons and al-Qaida] – Dore Gold, July 27, 2012</ref> The ''War on Terror'' was launched precisely to prevent such an attack ever happening.<br />
<br />
The ultimate outcome of such a program would be a set of DIY instructions that could be distributed by ''Inspire'' magazine and its sister publications. The plans need to be executable with normal garage tools from parts obtainable from any hardware store. The DIY rockets described by Brown Moses would satisfy this requirement.<br />
<br />
The Syrian conflict has seen a gradual development of al-Qaeda CW capability, from initial demonstrations with rabits, posted on YouTube, to successful but small scale attacks, like the one in [[Alleged chemical attack, March 19, 2013|Khan Al-Assal]] in March 2013, to confiscation of canisters of sarin from al-Qaeda operatives in Turkey and Syria to the arrest of a al-Qaeda chemical weapons cells in Iraq in July 2013.<ref>[http://centralasiaonline.com/en_GB/articles/caii/features/main/2013/08/02/feature-02 Iraq completes capture of chemical weapons cell] – August 2, 2013 – Quote: ''Al-Fayyadh said further investigations revealed that plans were put in place for al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra to get access to those weapons and "further aggravate the tragedy of the Syrian people."''</ref><br />
<br />
If the numbers of 1600 killed are anywhere near the truth, then one must conclude that a rocket attack like this, fully executed, could kill 50,000 people in a heavily populated Western metropolis (twice the number if done al-Qaeda style as a coordinated double attack), with little immediate risk to the perpetrators. For the WMD deterrence effect – or in this case, the terror effect – to work, the WMD capability has to be demonstrated ''in vivo''.<br />
<br />
;4) Rebel infighting<br />
The al-Qaeda affiliates [[Al Nusra Front|al-Nusra]] and ISIS have become dominant in the rebel held territories in the north near the Turkish border, while rebel forces in the south are in much tighter US control. Recent months have seen increased infighting between the rebels, culminating in [[Tal Abyad massacre|all-out war]] between the Kurdish YPG and al-Qaeda in the north. The attack might be an attempt by al-Qaeda to usurp leadership in the south by terrorizing other rebel groups and their supporters into subjugating to al-Qaeda rule.<br />
<br />
They may see it as a divine revenge to the people of Ghouta for failing the revolution and surrendering to Assad, like Hitler's orders to Albert Speer to destroy everything. Besides, in the end it does matter who gets killed, Allah will sort out the righteous from the infidels.<br />
<br />
=== Government ===<br />
;Stupidity<br />
''"Governments and armies do stupid things."''<ref> [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-evidence-of-chemical-attack-seems-compelling--but-remember--theres-a-propaganda-war-on-8778918.html The evidence of chemical attack seems compelling – but remember - there’s a propaganda war on] – PATRICK COCKBURN / ''The Independent'', 21 August 2013</ref><br />
Or, as Foreign Policy reported, "nor are U.S. analysts sure of the Syrian military's rationale for launching the strike -- if it had a rationale at all." An unnamed intelligence official told them: <br />
:''"We don't know exactly why it happened ... We just know it was pretty fucking stupid ... It's horrible, it's stupid ... Whatever happens in the next few days -- they get what they deserve." <ref name="FP" /><br />
<br />
== It never happened? ==<br />
<br />
The government has been sticking to the story "it never happened". (Maybe it did, they just never heard about it.) I would say the evidence is yet inconclusive. There is a huge number of videos, coming from seemingly independent rebel YouTube channels. Most, if not all of the videos are however hospital footage, with nothing that shows the victims or the attack ''in situ''. I do not think the dead people are staged, but for all we know the victims could be (Kurd) hostages gassed to death in some "confined space".<br />
<br />
The ''New York Times'' [http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/video-and-images-of-victims-of-suspected-syrian-chemical-attack/?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=3& reports:]<br />
:''While the veracity of the visual evidence uploaded to YouTube could not be independently established, chemical weapons experts told The Times that the injuries seen in footage from the region did not appear to be consistent with the effects of a conventional chemical weapon like sarin or mustard gas and that the deaths might have been caused by the use of a weaker chemical agent in a confined space.''<br />
<br />
Russia Today says they cannot confirm the attacks happened:<br />
:''A correspondent for the Russian TV channel RT Arabic succeeded in contacting local residents in the area of the alleged chemical weapons attack. RT reports, that the locals replied to the correspondent, that they have not witnessed any “poisonous attack” in the area, but that they could hear gunfire.<br />
<br />
AINA TV says they were at or near the scene filming with their nine cameras, and saw now sign of the use of chemical weapons:<br />
* [http://anna-news.info/node/12226 Documented evidence of the non-use of chemical weapons in Eastern Gouta today]<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This video tries to debunk a large part of the story (now translated into English):<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbXbafI7cCw Fake massacre by Syrian army using Chemical weapons] – Translated by ''Syrians in Sweden''<br />
The same group of small children (girls mainly, like the ones we saw in the [[Baniyas massacre]]) are filmed in at least three different arrangements. Each piece of footage is then published by a different rebel YouTube channel. ([http://www.youtube.com/user/syriafredoom/videos One] of them is the ''Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee'') Did they move the bodies around to film them in different parts of the Eastern Ghouta? <s>For all I know these could be Kurd children massacred in [[Tal-Abyad]] by ISIS.</s> (See [[#Dead girls in morgue|Dead girls in morgue]] above.) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Watched that. I agree with their call. It seems she's been been presented in three spreads that seem to be described as different victims batches in different towns. Three times, one victims. Other matches should be likely if so. And yes, they would be that sloppy and usually are. But in one room, we see what looks like about two dozen young girls. As a baseline indicator, this has to be big. I'd estimate 30 boys, 20 women, 30 men, another just-triple-digits on-the-fringes "Shabiha" massacre of certain families is a lot what it looks like, but with no visible wounds. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::The debunk is debunked here: [http://the-assad-debunkation.tumblr.com/post/59079756229/the-ghouta-chemical-attack-propaganda-frenzy The Ghouta Chemical Attack Propaganda Frenzy - Debunked:]<br />
<br />
:::Arabi Souri is [https://twitter.com/briansouter1/status/371485013629349888 now claiming] that some of the child victims shown on video are in fact kidnapped [[Latakia Massacres|Latakia massacre]] victims:<br />
::::''Some pictures of the children killed by 'Sarin chemical gas' in Ghouta (#Damascus Countryside) are for children kidnapped from #Latakia countryside and their families recognized them.''<br />
:::-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 04:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It never happened? It very damn well could not have happened, in the slightest bit. But I do suspect it damn well did, at least a bit. And I'm damn friggin' mad about it, and behind on the alleged details. I suspect a poison gas was deployed somewhere, and also a large number of people, including kids, were murdered in the rebel-infested parts of Reef Dimashq. Locals "have not witnessed any “poisonous attack” in the area, but that they could hear gunfire," RT heard. I wonder if the kind of shells used were the same ones used on Alawite Aqrab in December, per opposition sources [http://ciwclibya.org/syria/aqrabvisiblevictims.html causing all the deaths that occurred there?] Those two were sometimes snipers, and sometimes hacked open kids' skulls. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Didn't think it through, but the comparison might be better than I thought. The result of the alleged Abrab shelling was rebels in control of the area, 500 Alawite civilians in custody, 300 released, 200 unknown. Confined into a single house, they were denied food and water and had their air poisoned with the smoke of burning tires. Smoke, chlorine, sarin, what have you, and recalling that crossing the "red line" is a bonus... If civilians at gunpoint could be abducted and confined (yes) and if people rebels dislike enough or consider expendable still exist in Syria (yes, in abundance) then "the deaths might have been caused by the use of a weaker chemical agent in a confined space.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It never happened? Big picture, above stands, but it seems at least something on the scale of the Houla massacre but with toxic gas happened, perhaps with some battles and dead rebels thrown in, and some creative bookkeeping allowing reports of 1,000 + gassed to panic everyone into "urgent" action. Syria will need to have a look and more carefully say what did and didn't happen. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Videos a Day Early?===<br />
According to several Assadist sources the attack could not have happened because "[http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/22/photo-al-jazzera-reuter-published-the-news-of-massacre-in-east-ghouta-damascus-one-day-before-the-massacre-happened-by-assad/ Al Jazzera, Reuter published the news of massacre in East Ghouta, Damascus one day before the massacre happened.]" Yeah, pro-Assad Syrians are not very computer savvy. :-( [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Yeah, I read - skimmed - that yesterday as well. ;o) What is official Youtube-Time? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Maybe only indirectly related: [http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8da_1377112216 If you wanna play a chemical attack victim, better not be ticklish]... ;oD --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 14:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
RT is sticking to the "wrong timeline" story:<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/syria-chemical-prepared-advance-901/ Materials implicating Syrian govt in chemical attack prepared before incident – Russia] – RT, August 23, 2013<br />
:''Despite the 7-hour time difference between Syria and the US, where the YouTube server is located, the mismatch of the dates in the videos raised concerns among some experts about the exact time of the upload.''<br />
Even the Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman, Aleksandr Lukashevich is falling for this.''“The materials of the incident and accusations against government troops had been posted for several hours before the so-called attack. Thus, it was a pre-planned action.”'' Doesn't Russia have a fucking intelligence service!<br />
::Agreed, big fail. It says right there it's U.S. eastern time, which I think is actually 8 hours earlier. 4 am Syria = 8 pm "the previous day" on Youtube. 4 hours of it followed. The actual news story should have been "Despite the 7-hour time difference between Syria and the US, where the YouTube server is located, the mismatch of the dates in the videos raised concerns among some experts about the exact time of the upload," and thus not run! When they say pre-planned, I hope they don't mean this, but just that you don't do this without planning. Or based on some other evidence they can share. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Is this possibly a subtle joke, or a "soft power" trick that they too can push transparent propaganda, or something? For a nation with 11 time zones, you think they'd get this issue better than most. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Looking at YouTube Gdata, I get timestamps [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/L6B8wq1VXN0 2013-08-21T03:37:12.000Z] [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/VGOAmM1rN8s 2013-08-21T02:51:02.000Z] and [http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/PXwS4_E3OQE 2013-08-21T01:00:54.000Z] for the three videos embedded on the RT page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:This is a trick I will need to learn (later). Specifics, understood, see? Z = GMT. The last one is almost, maybe, problematic. It's said the attacks stared around 4 am local (I'm hazy). That last one is posted 4:01 local time (GMT +3). That's just barely too early, depending. Probably not. But anyway, that's how you would go about finding things that were up too early, suggesting pre-planning/foreknowledge on the rebel side. It's worth watching for, for sure. Not just with videos, but anywhere. And for foreknowledge on the other side too, for that matter. Nothing credibly reported yet. I suspect anything found will be vague and unprovable, but surely interesting and likely true. '''*''' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:'''<nowiki>*</nowiki>''' if it blames the rebels. What can I say? They have all the motive and that's the #1 thing. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:53, 27 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/confused-by-how-youtube-assigns-dates-russians-cite-false-claim-on-syria-videos/?_r=1& The Lede] says actually Youtube's time zone is set to California, Pacific time. That's my own time zone, but it says it's 10 hours behind Syria, not 11. I might be wrong but I thought PST was -8 from GMT. Anyway, this means there were at least six hours of Aug. 21 that would appear on Youtube as Aug. 20, 6 Pm to midnight Caifornia, = the first six hours of the attack, or about all of it. Only things filmed after about 10 am in Syria can even hope to be shown as posted on Aug 21. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Chemicals injected after death? ===<br />
The [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkGa2jr9MBA morgue video] from Kafr Batna shows victims being injected with syringes, as [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712844128742681 noted] here. Assad supporters have picked on this an are now [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=563219720424586 claiming] the victims were injected after death, apparently to plant false evidence for the UN investigators to find. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:One way or another, they got samples running barricades to the U.N. people, should be there by now with a few km involved. I'm guessing it's samples of human blood they got chemicals into. As that's the whole idea, this sounds plausible. As for doing it right there on video, sure, I could see that audacity, given what I've seen. Otherwise, I don't know. Kind of seems they were killed by gassing, so ideally just that exposure is what would be most realistic.--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I do not believe there is anything fake in any of the videos. I think all the people in the videos genuinely believe they were gassed by "Assad". How would they know if it was al-Qaeda that launched the rockets? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /></div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=File:Al-Bayda_Shop_Sign.png&diff=6701File:Al-Bayda Shop Sign.png2013-08-28T17:51:20Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: </p>
<hr />
<div>From the door of the shop in which 20-ish bodies were laid in al-Bayda. It says "accessories" [إكسسوارات iksissurat] and "servicing." [صيانة siyanah] Cell phones are one of the lines of work both words apply to.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Al-Baida]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Jabhat_Al-Nusra&diff=5995Jabhat Al-Nusra2013-08-15T10:02:21Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Goals */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Nusra Flag.png|thumb]]<br />
'''Jabhat al-Nusra''' is a Salafist fighting group in Syria, formed in July 2011 as the initially unofficial Syrian wing of '''al Qaeda in Iraq'''<ref>[http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/al-qaeda-announces-an-islamic-state-in-syria#.UWTjDn9M5Dc.twitter Al-Qaeda Announces an Islamic State in Syria] - Aaron Y. Zelin, April 9, 2013</ref><ref><br />
<br />
[http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/al-qaeda-levant-awaits-its-emir Al-Qaeda in the Levant Awaits its Emir] – Radwan Mortada, April 11, 2013<br />
</ref> and allied with - but rejecting the perceived pro-West constraints on - the Free Syrian Army (FSA). The group is also called sl-Nusra Front (Arabic: جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام Jabhat al-Nusra li-Ahl al-Sham, meaning: "The Support Front for the People of the Levant [Greater Syria]") and bears the flag shown at right. <ref name="WP">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front Al-Nusra Front] Wikpedia. Last modified on 12 December 2012 at 22:53</ref> Generally considered one of the most effective and best-supported groups in the struggle against Syria's government (sometimes called [http://www.businessinsider.com/syrias-rebels-terrorists-2012-12 "Syria's Best Rebel Fighters"]), they became infamous for gross violations of Human Rights and were listed by the United States as a terrorist organization - in fact, as a different name for the organisation also known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq - in December 2012.<br />
<br />
== Goals ==<br />
A January 2013 "strategic briefing" by Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake of the anti-extremist think-tank Quilliam Foundation gives a quite detailed report of origins, goals and strategy of the organization.<ref name="QF">[http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/publications/free/jabhat-al-nusra-a-strategic-briefing.pdf Jabhat Al-Nusra: A Strategic Briefing], Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake, Quilliam Foundation, January 2013 (13 page pdf, 450kb)</ref> In February 2013 a leading Jihadi internet forum produced a "comprehensive strategy for Syria" paper in a collaborative effort which mentions Al-Nusra several times as "our brothers on the ground" and shines further light on ideology, goals and strategy. It was translated into English by Cole Bunzel of the monitoring site "Jihadica" in late February.<ref name="AQCS">[http://www.jihadica.com/al-qaeda-advises-the-syrian-revolution-shumukh-al-islams-“comprehensive-strategy”-for-syria/ Al-Qaeda Advises the Syrian Revolution: Shumukh al-Islam’s “Comprehensive Strategy” for Syria], translated by Cole Bunzel, February 25, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
Contrary to groups like the FSA, the fall of the Assad government is only a short-term goal for al-Nusra, while the end-goal is to establish an Islamist caliphate in all of what they call Bilad al-Sham (The Land of Sem) - not the modern Republic of Syria in its present borders - but basically the whole Levant including Jordan, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine and the present Turkish province of Hatay (ar: Iskandaroun). This caliphate would eventually encompass the whole Muslim world. <br />
<br />
Jabhat al-Nusra is against democracy on principle, claiming that it is God and not mankind, who is the supreme authority. The people in a Muslim country, for example, does not have the right to oppose the introduction of Shari'ah laws. But the organization can accept elections inside an Islamic system provided that non-Muslims do not have a say, except in their own internal affairs.<br />
<br />
The organization's problem with the Assad regime has thus nothing to do with democracy or freedom. The main problem is that this regime is secular and dominated by an apostate sect that should be put to death. The fact that Syria's population is overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim compounds this problem. al-Nusra's mother organization "The Islamic State of Iraq" (al-Qaeda in Iraq), however, have the same line although Iraq has a Sunni minority.<br />
<br />
al-Nusra, like many al-Qa'eda groups, is extremely sectarian and takfiri. The followers of other religions other than Islam, as well as Muslims not adhering to its own salafist interpretation of this religion, are counted as kuffar (infidels). Followers of other monotheist religions such as Judaism and Christianity can be tolerated as long as the Muslims have all the power. Members of other muslim sects, such as Shias and Alawis, as well as secular Muslims, are generally considered apostates who have converted from true Islam and therefore should be punished by death. The Economist asked a Nusra fighter what would be the fate of the Alawis of Syria:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>"Allah knows what will happen to them. There is a difference between the basic kuffar [infidels] and those who converted from Islam. If the latter, we must punish them. Alawites are included. Even Sunnis who want democracy are kuffar as are all Shia. It’s not about who is loyal and who isn’t to the regime; it’s about their religion. Sharia says there can be no punishment of the innocent and there must be punishment of the bad; that’s what we follow."<ref>{{cite news | url= http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2013/05/syrias-fighters-0 | title = An interview with Jabhat al-Nusra<br />
| publisher = Economist | author= | date= May 23rd 2013| accessdate= August 13, 2013}}</ref></blockquote><br />
<br />
== An Effective Force ==<br />
The New York Times reported how rebel fighters had come to value Al-Nusra "because of its fighters’ bravery and reliable supply of money and arms." Further, they reported the Front "has never come under the banner of the Free Syrian Army, shunning the Western aid and input that other groups have sought, but it coordinates closely with many who do." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/world/middleeast/us-designates-syrian-al-nusra-front-as-terrorist-group.html?_r=0 U.S. Places Militant Syrian Rebel Group on List of Terrorist Organizations] By MICHAEL R. GORDON and ANNE BARNARD, New York Times. Published: December 10, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
(more forthcoming...)<br />
<br />
== A Criminal Force ==<br />
The group has been identified as involved in a number of heinous and criminal acts across Syria, with a handy partial list at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Attacks the Wikipedia page]. Jabhat Al-Nusra was one of the few groups to explicitly refuse recognizing UN envoy Brahimi's late October [[Eid Al-Adha Cease-Fire|Eid Al-Adha cease-fire proposal]], to which both the government and the FSA agreed. The cease-fire was shattered almost immediately by, among other things, terrorist car bombings in Damascus thought to be carried out by the Front. They have claimed responsibility for a vast majority of the car bombings, suicide and otherwise, that have been carried out so far in the Syrian war. <br />
<br />
Al-Nusra were described as prominent in the audacious repeated assaults [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|on the border town of Ras Al-Ayn]]. They were involved in the destruction of an Al-Ikhbaria TV station near Damascus, and later the execution of a news presenter. Al-Nusra were blamed by locals and officials for the twisted [[Haswiyeh Massacre]], also of Jan. 15, in Homs. It seems they operated the alleged bakery (a shipping center, actually) targeted in the [[Halfaya Bakery Bombing]] near Hama. They seem to be behind the killing of Shi'ite guards, executives, and workers at the Syrian Petroleum Company's center in Al-Shaddadi, Hasakah province, in mid-February 2012 (see [[Al-Shaddadi Petroluem Company Massacre]]) <br />
<br />
Jabhat Al-Nusra has been especially active in and around Syria's largest city of Aleppo in the north. They documented themselves [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|executing dozens of army soldiers]] there in September, 2012. They later declared a "no-fly zone" over Aleppo, threatening to shoot down commercial airliners if they felt they carried weapons. They've been blamed for the [[Aleppo University Attack]] of Jan. 15, 2013 (perhaps in part to help underscore the importance of their "no-fly zone"). They were blamed by some for the [[Queiq River Massacre]], in which some 80 or more local men and boys were executed and found in a rebel-held stretch of the Queiq river in Aleppo in January, 2013. <br />
<br />
These are examples, and nothing like a comprehensive list.<br />
<br />
== Balancing Act ==<br />
[[File:Nusra Scale.png|left|290px]]There is a widespread but not necessarily true belief that Syria's rebels turn or will turn to Islamic extremist groups like Jabhat Al-Nusra, due to a lack of Western support, a mangled "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld Jihad vs. McWorld]" conception. The young boy in Syria seen at left, partaking in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9NZY0t4qw an early December demonstration in Isqat] (far north), apparently understands the perceived problem (unless he didn't really make the sign). <br />
<br />
However, it's entirely conceivable, to put it mildly, for the opposition in whole to take the support of both the West and the Jihadists, and use them together for an end more in line with the goals of one side or the other. All the talk of balance might be nothing more than a clever opposition playing supporters off against each other to accelerate a competition of support they can reap profitably on both ends.<br />
<br />
== US Listing as a Terrorist Group ==<br />
[[File:Victory Front execution in Aleppo.jpg|thumb|A photograph published by the Al-Nusra Front to Protect the Levant showing the [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|execution of prisoners in Aleppo]]]]<br />
The decision to list the Front as a terrorist organization, thus criminalizing privite support for the group, was announced in late November, during the lead-up to the "Friends of Syria" meeting set for December 12, 2012 in Marrakesh, Morocco. The actual listing by the U.S. State Department came on December 10, following immediately president Obama's extension of recognition to the new Rebel council as the legitimate representatives of the Syrian people. The Christian Science Monitor reported on the move made with "lightning speed": <br />
:''The speed with which the US government moved to designate a fairly new group that has never attacked US interests and is engaged in fighting a regime that successive administrations have demonized is evidence of the strange bedfellows and overlapping agendas that make the Syrian civil war so explosive.'' <ref name="CSM1">[http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1210/US-designates-Syria-s-Jabhat-al-Nusra-front-a-terrorist-group-at-lightning-speed US designates Syria's Jabhat al-Nusra front a 'terrorist' group at lightning speed] By Dan Murphy, Staff writer, Cristain Science Monitor, December 10, 2012</ref><br />
The State Department confirmed earlier accusations that Jabhat Al-Nusra was a direct offshoot of Al Qaeda in Iraq. <ref name="CSM1"/> One of its more prominent members killed in fighting in January, 2013, was claimed by Jordanian Salafists as a brother-in-law of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, AQI's onetime leader. <br />
<br />
=== Protest Against the Listing ===<br />
Many rebels who'd been fighting with Al-Nusra, enjoying its often-stunning successes, and not being too upset with its cruel excesses, voiced displeasure with the decision and protested. As the New York Times reported:<br />
:''But a growing number of anti-government groups — including fighters in the loose-knit Free Syrian Army that the United States is trying to bolster — have signed petitions or posted statements online in recent days expressing support for the Nusra Front. In keeping with a tradition throughout the uprising of choosing themes for Friday protests, the biggest day for demonstrations because it coincides with Friday Prayer, many called for this Friday’s title to be “No to American intervention — '''we are all Jabhet al-Nusra'''.” <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
Lindey Hilsum, Channel 4 (UK) wrote on the more official response:<br />
:''“There is nothing wrong with fighting in the name of Islam,” said the coalition leader, Ahmed Moaz al-Khatib, a moderate imam, in his speech to assembled ministers and diplomats. He requested the Americans to reconsider their decision.''<br />
<br />
:''“We will work with everybody on the ground who has an agenda which includes ending the suffering of the Syrian people,” said Yaser Tabbara, a coalition spokesman. “If al-Nusra is on the same page, they will be dealt with using dialogue and containment.”'' <ref name="LH">[http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/jabhat-al-nusra-terrorists-or-opposition-assets/1154 Jabhat al-Nusra: Terrorists or opposition assets?] Lindsey Hilsum, Channel 4 blog, Wednesday 12 Dec 2012</ref><br />
<br />
Guardian reporter Martin Chulov, a reliable ally of the rebels all along, expressed shock at the protests with [https://twitter.com/martinchulov/status/278826599191818240 the following tweet]: <br />
:''Choking on coffees in Marrakesh: #Syrian oppn leader Khatib asks US to reverse decisn to brand Jabhat al-lNusra terrorists #news''<br />
<br />
Turkish officials reportedly complained on January 17 that the front should not have been declared terrorists until after the war was over. <br />
:''Turkey also criticized the timing of Washington’s decision to declare the Jabhat al-Nusra front, an Islamist group at the forefront of the fight against the Syrian government, as a terrorist organization ... while noting U.S. support for Turkey’s efforts to combat terrorism and plans on stopping terrorism financing.'' <ref name="HD">[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/al-assad-in-his-last-six-months-us-estimates.aspx?pageID=238&nID=39248&NewsCatID=359 Al-Assad in his last six months, US estimates] Tolga Tanış, Hurriyet Daily News, January 17, 2013</ref> <br />
This ironic set of statements came as the Turks planned another enabled border-crossing at [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|Ras Al-Ayn]], with Al-Nusrah jihadists driving tanks into the Kurdish town once again on the 18th, <ref name="AFP1">[http://www.news24.com/World/News/Syria-Clashes-pit-Kurds-against-jihadists-20130118 Syria Clashes pit Kurds against jihadists] AFP via News 24, January 18, 2013</ref>, and at the same time [http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/turkey-anti-terror-arrests-target-prominent-human-rights-lawyers-2013-01-18 Turkey arrested 15 prominent lawyers and human rights activists] under counter-terrorism laws, allegedly as part of a crackdown on some leftist group.<br />
<br />
== Created by the Syrian Government? ==<br />
A rather strange article by Hazem Al-Amin (from Al-Hayat, Jan. 13, 2013, translated and re-posted by Al-Arabiya Jan. 20) seems to make a case that Jabhat Al-Nusra pre-dates the Syrian uprising by decades, and is essentially a creation of the Syrian government, as a "trap" for the opposition. It's quite the conspiracy theory, with no apparent support except arguing that in years past the same was done with "al-Talea" to ensare the Muslim Brotherhood. Some excerpts:<br />
:''Any attempt at identifying al-Nusra Front with the revolution is supported by the way facts on the grounds are pushed to that direction. The regime has always been doing that so that it could establish al-Nusra as the only available alternative in case the Syrians decide to demand change.'' <br />
<br />
:''Today the facts that are being revealed prove that the Syrian regime has to be toppled as soon as possible. Among those facts is the way '''the regime used al-Nusra and similar groups in its conflict with the Syrian people in the 1970s and 1980s''' as well as in its regional wars, especially with militant networks in Iraq, throughout the past decade. Now it is back to the same strategy through creating of al-Nusra the only opposition faction. Add to this the return of the militants previously sent to Iraq to fight the Syrian regime together with other fighters from Iraq and other countries.'' <br />
<br />
:''The model of al-Nusra has always served the Syrian regime’s ends and which always revolve around stripping the conflict of its political dimension.''<br />
<br />
An awful lot of people who seem opposed to the government (regime) have been suckered, if Mr. Al-Amin is the slightest bit correct. All other evidence suggests he is not.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
== External links==<br />
* [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18048033 Profile: Syria's al-Nusra Front] – BBC, 10 April 2013<br />
<br />
[[Category:Groups]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Jabhat_Al-Nusra&diff=5992Jabhat Al-Nusra2013-08-15T09:43:03Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Goals */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Nusra Flag.png|thumb]]<br />
'''Jabhat al-Nusra''' is a Salafist fighting group in Syria, formed in July 2011 as the initially unofficial Syrian wing of '''al Qaeda in Iraq'''<ref>[http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/al-qaeda-announces-an-islamic-state-in-syria#.UWTjDn9M5Dc.twitter Al-Qaeda Announces an Islamic State in Syria] - Aaron Y. Zelin, April 9, 2013</ref><ref><br />
<br />
[http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/al-qaeda-levant-awaits-its-emir Al-Qaeda in the Levant Awaits its Emir] – Radwan Mortada, April 11, 2013<br />
</ref> and allied with - but rejecting the perceived pro-West constraints on - the Free Syrian Army (FSA). The group is also called sl-Nusra Front (Arabic: جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام Jabhat al-Nusra li-Ahl al-Sham, meaning: "The Support Front for the People of the Levant [Greater Syria]") and bears the flag shown at right. <ref name="WP">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front Al-Nusra Front] Wikpedia. Last modified on 12 December 2012 at 22:53</ref> Generally considered one of the most effective and best-supported groups in the struggle against Syria's government (sometimes called [http://www.businessinsider.com/syrias-rebels-terrorists-2012-12 "Syria's Best Rebel Fighters"]), they became infamous for gross violations of Human Rights and were listed by the United States as a terrorist organization - in fact, as a different name for the organisation also known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq - in December 2012.<br />
<br />
== Goals ==<br />
A January 2013 "strategic briefing" by Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake of the anti-extremist think-tank Quilliam Foundation gives a quite detailed report of origins, goals and strategy of the organization.<ref name="QF">[http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/publications/free/jabhat-al-nusra-a-strategic-briefing.pdf Jabhat Al-Nusra: A Strategic Briefing], Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake, Quilliam Foundation, January 2013 (13 page pdf, 450kb)</ref> In February 2013 a leading Jihadi internet forum produced a "comprehensive strategy for Syria" paper in a collaborative effort which mentions Al-Nusra several times as "our brothers on the ground" and shines further light on ideology, goals and strategy. It was translated into English by Cole Bunzel of the monitoring site "Jihadica" in late February.<ref name="AQCS">[http://www.jihadica.com/al-qaeda-advises-the-syrian-revolution-shumukh-al-islams-“comprehensive-strategy”-for-syria/ Al-Qaeda Advises the Syrian Revolution: Shumukh al-Islam’s “Comprehensive Strategy” for Syria], translated by Cole Bunzel, February 25, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
Contrary to groups like the FSA, the fall of the Assad government is only a short-term goal for Al Nusra, while the end-goal is to establish an Islamist caliphate in all of what they call Bilad al-Sham (The Land of Sem) - not the modern Republic of Syria in its present borders - but basically the whole Levant including Jordan, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine and the present Turkish province of Hatay (ar: Iskandaroun). This caliphate would eventually encompass the whole Muslim world. On this way, even groups like the Muslim Brotherhood are seen as a puppet force of the "Crusader" conspiracy and called "secular Islamists" or pseudo-Muslims and counted among the enemies of the "pure creed".<br />
<br />
Jabhat al-Nusra, like many al-Qa'eda groups, is extremely sectarian and takfiri. Followers of other religions other than Islam, as well as Muslims not adhering to its own salafist interpretation of Islam, are counted as kuffar (infidels). Followers of other monotheist religions such as Judaism and Christianity can be tolerated as long as the Muslims have all the power. Members of other muslim sects, such as Shias and Allawis, are generally considered apostates who have converted from true Islam and therefore should be punished by death. The Economist asked a Nusra fighter what would be the fate of the Alawis of Syria:<br />
<br />
"Allah knows what will happen to them. There is a difference between the basic kuffar [infidels] and those who converted from Islam. If the latter, we must punish them. Alawites are included. Even Sunnis who want democracy are kuffar as are all Shia. It’s not about who is loyal and who isn’t to the regime; it’s about their religion. Sharia says there can be no punishment of the innocent and there must be punishment of the bad; that’s what we follow."<ref>{{cite news | url= http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2013/05/syrias-fighters-0 | title = An interview with Jabhat al-Nusra<br />
| publisher = Economist | author= | date= May 23rd 2013| accessdate= August 13, 2013}}</ref><br />
<br />
== An Effective Force ==<br />
The New York Times reported how rebel fighters had come to value Al-Nusra "because of its fighters’ bravery and reliable supply of money and arms." Further, they reported the Front "has never come under the banner of the Free Syrian Army, shunning the Western aid and input that other groups have sought, but it coordinates closely with many who do." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/world/middleeast/us-designates-syrian-al-nusra-front-as-terrorist-group.html?_r=0 U.S. Places Militant Syrian Rebel Group on List of Terrorist Organizations] By MICHAEL R. GORDON and ANNE BARNARD, New York Times. Published: December 10, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
(more forthcoming...)<br />
<br />
== A Criminal Force ==<br />
The group has been identified as involved in a number of heinous and criminal acts across Syria, with a handy partial list at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Attacks the Wikipedia page]. Jabhat Al-Nusra was one of the few groups to explicitly refuse recognizing UN envoy Brahimi's late October [[Eid Al-Adha Cease-Fire|Eid Al-Adha cease-fire proposal]], to which both the government and the FSA agreed. The cease-fire was shattered almost immediately by, among other things, terrorist car bombings in Damascus thought to be carried out by the Front. They have claimed responsibility for a vast majority of the car bombings, suicide and otherwise, that have been carried out so far in the Syrian war. <br />
<br />
Al-Nusra were described as prominent in the audacious repeated assaults [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|on the border town of Ras Al-Ayn]]. They were involved in the destruction of an Al-Ikhbaria TV station near Damascus, and later the execution of a news presenter. Al-Nusra were blamed by locals and officials for the twisted [[Haswiyeh Massacre]], also of Jan. 15, in Homs. It seems they operated the alleged bakery (a shipping center, actually) targeted in the [[Halfaya Bakery Bombing]] near Hama. They seem to be behind the killing of Shi'ite guards, executives, and workers at the Syrian Petroleum Company's center in Al-Shaddadi, Hasakah province, in mid-February 2012 (see [[Al-Shaddadi Petroluem Company Massacre]]) <br />
<br />
Jabhat Al-Nusra has been especially active in and around Syria's largest city of Aleppo in the north. They documented themselves [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|executing dozens of army soldiers]] there in September, 2012. They later declared a "no-fly zone" over Aleppo, threatening to shoot down commercial airliners if they felt they carried weapons. They've been blamed for the [[Aleppo University Attack]] of Jan. 15, 2013 (perhaps in part to help underscore the importance of their "no-fly zone"). They were blamed by some for the [[Queiq River Massacre]], in which some 80 or more local men and boys were executed and found in a rebel-held stretch of the Queiq river in Aleppo in January, 2013. <br />
<br />
These are examples, and nothing like a comprehensive list.<br />
<br />
== Balancing Act ==<br />
[[File:Nusra Scale.png|left|290px]]There is a widespread but not necessarily true belief that Syria's rebels turn or will turn to Islamic extremist groups like Jabhat Al-Nusra, due to a lack of Western support, a mangled "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld Jihad vs. McWorld]" conception. The young boy in Syria seen at left, partaking in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9NZY0t4qw an early December demonstration in Isqat] (far north), apparently understands the perceived problem (unless he didn't really make the sign). <br />
<br />
However, it's entirely conceivable, to put it mildly, for the opposition in whole to take the support of both the West and the Jihadists, and use them together for an end more in line with the goals of one side or the other. All the talk of balance might be nothing more than a clever opposition playing supporters off against each other to accelerate a competition of support they can reap profitably on both ends.<br />
<br />
== US Listing as a Terrorist Group ==<br />
[[File:Victory Front execution in Aleppo.jpg|thumb|A photograph published by the Al-Nusra Front to Protect the Levant showing the [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|execution of prisoners in Aleppo]]]]<br />
The decision to list the Front as a terrorist organization, thus criminalizing privite support for the group, was announced in late November, during the lead-up to the "Friends of Syria" meeting set for December 12, 2012 in Marrakesh, Morocco. The actual listing by the U.S. State Department came on December 10, following immediately president Obama's extension of recognition to the new Rebel council as the legitimate representatives of the Syrian people. The Christian Science Monitor reported on the move made with "lightning speed": <br />
:''The speed with which the US government moved to designate a fairly new group that has never attacked US interests and is engaged in fighting a regime that successive administrations have demonized is evidence of the strange bedfellows and overlapping agendas that make the Syrian civil war so explosive.'' <ref name="CSM1">[http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1210/US-designates-Syria-s-Jabhat-al-Nusra-front-a-terrorist-group-at-lightning-speed US designates Syria's Jabhat al-Nusra front a 'terrorist' group at lightning speed] By Dan Murphy, Staff writer, Cristain Science Monitor, December 10, 2012</ref><br />
The State Department confirmed earlier accusations that Jabhat Al-Nusra was a direct offshoot of Al Qaeda in Iraq. <ref name="CSM1"/> One of its more prominent members killed in fighting in January, 2013, was claimed by Jordanian Salafists as a brother-in-law of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, AQI's onetime leader. <br />
<br />
=== Protest Against the Listing ===<br />
Many rebels who'd been fighting with Al-Nusra, enjoying its often-stunning successes, and not being too upset with its cruel excesses, voiced displeasure with the decision and protested. As the New York Times reported:<br />
:''But a growing number of anti-government groups — including fighters in the loose-knit Free Syrian Army that the United States is trying to bolster — have signed petitions or posted statements online in recent days expressing support for the Nusra Front. In keeping with a tradition throughout the uprising of choosing themes for Friday protests, the biggest day for demonstrations because it coincides with Friday Prayer, many called for this Friday’s title to be “No to American intervention — '''we are all Jabhet al-Nusra'''.” <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
Lindey Hilsum, Channel 4 (UK) wrote on the more official response:<br />
:''“There is nothing wrong with fighting in the name of Islam,” said the coalition leader, Ahmed Moaz al-Khatib, a moderate imam, in his speech to assembled ministers and diplomats. He requested the Americans to reconsider their decision.''<br />
<br />
:''“We will work with everybody on the ground who has an agenda which includes ending the suffering of the Syrian people,” said Yaser Tabbara, a coalition spokesman. “If al-Nusra is on the same page, they will be dealt with using dialogue and containment.”'' <ref name="LH">[http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/jabhat-al-nusra-terrorists-or-opposition-assets/1154 Jabhat al-Nusra: Terrorists or opposition assets?] Lindsey Hilsum, Channel 4 blog, Wednesday 12 Dec 2012</ref><br />
<br />
Guardian reporter Martin Chulov, a reliable ally of the rebels all along, expressed shock at the protests with [https://twitter.com/martinchulov/status/278826599191818240 the following tweet]: <br />
:''Choking on coffees in Marrakesh: #Syrian oppn leader Khatib asks US to reverse decisn to brand Jabhat al-lNusra terrorists #news''<br />
<br />
Turkish officials reportedly complained on January 17 that the front should not have been declared terrorists until after the war was over. <br />
:''Turkey also criticized the timing of Washington’s decision to declare the Jabhat al-Nusra front, an Islamist group at the forefront of the fight against the Syrian government, as a terrorist organization ... while noting U.S. support for Turkey’s efforts to combat terrorism and plans on stopping terrorism financing.'' <ref name="HD">[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/al-assad-in-his-last-six-months-us-estimates.aspx?pageID=238&nID=39248&NewsCatID=359 Al-Assad in his last six months, US estimates] Tolga Tanış, Hurriyet Daily News, January 17, 2013</ref> <br />
This ironic set of statements came as the Turks planned another enabled border-crossing at [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|Ras Al-Ayn]], with Al-Nusrah jihadists driving tanks into the Kurdish town once again on the 18th, <ref name="AFP1">[http://www.news24.com/World/News/Syria-Clashes-pit-Kurds-against-jihadists-20130118 Syria Clashes pit Kurds against jihadists] AFP via News 24, January 18, 2013</ref>, and at the same time [http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/turkey-anti-terror-arrests-target-prominent-human-rights-lawyers-2013-01-18 Turkey arrested 15 prominent lawyers and human rights activists] under counter-terrorism laws, allegedly as part of a crackdown on some leftist group.<br />
<br />
== Created by the Syrian Government? ==<br />
A rather strange article by Hazem Al-Amin (from Al-Hayat, Jan. 13, 2013, translated and re-posted by Al-Arabiya Jan. 20) seems to make a case that Jabhat Al-Nusra pre-dates the Syrian uprising by decades, and is essentially a creation of the Syrian government, as a "trap" for the opposition. It's quite the conspiracy theory, with no apparent support except arguing that in years past the same was done with "al-Talea" to ensare the Muslim Brotherhood. Some excerpts:<br />
:''Any attempt at identifying al-Nusra Front with the revolution is supported by the way facts on the grounds are pushed to that direction. The regime has always been doing that so that it could establish al-Nusra as the only available alternative in case the Syrians decide to demand change.'' <br />
<br />
:''Today the facts that are being revealed prove that the Syrian regime has to be toppled as soon as possible. Among those facts is the way '''the regime used al-Nusra and similar groups in its conflict with the Syrian people in the 1970s and 1980s''' as well as in its regional wars, especially with militant networks in Iraq, throughout the past decade. Now it is back to the same strategy through creating of al-Nusra the only opposition faction. Add to this the return of the militants previously sent to Iraq to fight the Syrian regime together with other fighters from Iraq and other countries.'' <br />
<br />
:''The model of al-Nusra has always served the Syrian regime’s ends and which always revolve around stripping the conflict of its political dimension.''<br />
<br />
An awful lot of people who seem opposed to the government (regime) have been suckered, if Mr. Al-Amin is the slightest bit correct. All other evidence suggests he is not.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
== External links==<br />
* [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18048033 Profile: Syria's al-Nusra Front] – BBC, 10 April 2013<br />
<br />
[[Category:Groups]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Jabhat_Al-Nusra&diff=5991Jabhat Al-Nusra2013-08-15T09:15:02Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: Iraq is not part of al-Sham</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Nusra Flag.png|thumb]]<br />
'''Jabhat al-Nusra''' is a Salafist fighting group in Syria, formed in July 2011 as the initially unofficial Syrian wing of '''al Qaeda in Iraq'''<ref>[http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/al-qaeda-announces-an-islamic-state-in-syria#.UWTjDn9M5Dc.twitter Al-Qaeda Announces an Islamic State in Syria] - Aaron Y. Zelin, April 9, 2013</ref><ref><br />
<br />
[http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/al-qaeda-levant-awaits-its-emir Al-Qaeda in the Levant Awaits its Emir] – Radwan Mortada, April 11, 2013<br />
</ref> and allied with - but rejecting the perceived pro-West constraints on - the Free Syrian Army (FSA). The group is also called sl-Nusra Front (Arabic: جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام Jabhat al-Nusra li-Ahl al-Sham, meaning: "The Support Front for the People of the Levant [Greater Syria]") and bears the flag shown at right. <ref name="WP">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front Al-Nusra Front] Wikpedia. Last modified on 12 December 2012 at 22:53</ref> Generally considered one of the most effective and best-supported groups in the struggle against Syria's government (sometimes called [http://www.businessinsider.com/syrias-rebels-terrorists-2012-12 "Syria's Best Rebel Fighters"]), they became infamous for gross violations of Human Rights and were listed by the United States as a terrorist organization - in fact, as a different name for the organisation also known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq - in December 2012.<br />
<br />
== Goals ==<br />
A January 2013 "strategic briefing" by Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake of the anti-extremist think-tank Quilliam Foundation gives a quite detailed report of origins, goals and strategy of the organization.<ref name="QF">[http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/publications/free/jabhat-al-nusra-a-strategic-briefing.pdf Jabhat Al-Nusra: A Strategic Briefing], Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake, Quilliam Foundation, January 2013 (13 page pdf, 450kb)</ref> In February 2013 a leading Jihadi internet forum produced a "comprehensive strategy for Syria" paper in a collaborative effort which mentions Al-Nusra several times as "our brothers on the ground" and shines further light on ideology, goals and strategy. It was translated into English by Cole Bunzel of the monitoring site "Jihadica" in late February.<ref name="AQCS">[http://www.jihadica.com/al-qaeda-advises-the-syrian-revolution-shumukh-al-islams-“comprehensive-strategy”-for-syria/ Al-Qaeda Advises the Syrian Revolution: Shumukh al-Islam’s “Comprehensive Strategy” for Syria], translated by Cole Bunzel, February 25, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
Contrary to groups like the FSA, the fall of the Assad government is only a short-term goal for Al Nusra, while the end-goal is to establish an Islamist caliphate in all of what they call Al-Sham - not the modern Syria in the borders defined by the Sykes-Picot-Agreement, but basically the whole Levant including Jordan, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, and finally the whole Muslim world. On this way, even groups like the Muslim Brotherhood are seen as a puppet force of the "Crusader" conspiracy and called "secular Islamists" or pseudo-Muslims and counted among the enemies of the "pure creed".<br />
<br />
== An Effective Force ==<br />
The New York Times reported how rebel fighters had come to value Al-Nusra "because of its fighters’ bravery and reliable supply of money and arms." Further, they reported the Front "has never come under the banner of the Free Syrian Army, shunning the Western aid and input that other groups have sought, but it coordinates closely with many who do." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/world/middleeast/us-designates-syrian-al-nusra-front-as-terrorist-group.html?_r=0 U.S. Places Militant Syrian Rebel Group on List of Terrorist Organizations] By MICHAEL R. GORDON and ANNE BARNARD, New York Times. Published: December 10, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
(more forthcoming...)<br />
<br />
== A Criminal Force ==<br />
The group has been identified as involved in a number of heinous and criminal acts across Syria, with a handy partial list at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Attacks the Wikipedia page]. Jabhat Al-Nusra was one of the few groups to explicitly refuse recognizing UN envoy Brahimi's late October [[Eid Al-Adha Cease-Fire|Eid Al-Adha cease-fire proposal]], to which both the government and the FSA agreed. The cease-fire was shattered almost immediately by, among other things, terrorist car bombings in Damascus thought to be carried out by the Front. They have claimed responsibility for a vast majority of the car bombings, suicide and otherwise, that have been carried out so far in the Syrian war. <br />
<br />
Al-Nusra were described as prominent in the audacious repeated assaults [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|on the border town of Ras Al-Ayn]]. They were involved in the destruction of an Al-Ikhbaria TV station near Damascus, and later the execution of a news presenter. Al-Nusra were blamed by locals and officials for the twisted [[Haswiyeh Massacre]], also of Jan. 15, in Homs. It seems they operated the alleged bakery (a shipping center, actually) targeted in the [[Halfaya Bakery Bombing]] near Hama. They seem to be behind the killing of Shi'ite guards, executives, and workers at the Syrian Petroleum Company's center in Al-Shaddadi, Hasakah province, in mid-February 2012 (see [[Al-Shaddadi Petroluem Company Massacre]]) <br />
<br />
Jabhat Al-Nusra has been especially active in and around Syria's largest city of Aleppo in the north. They documented themselves [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|executing dozens of army soldiers]] there in September, 2012. They later declared a "no-fly zone" over Aleppo, threatening to shoot down commercial airliners if they felt they carried weapons. They've been blamed for the [[Aleppo University Attack]] of Jan. 15, 2013 (perhaps in part to help underscore the importance of their "no-fly zone"). They were blamed by some for the [[Queiq River Massacre]], in which some 80 or more local men and boys were executed and found in a rebel-held stretch of the Queiq river in Aleppo in January, 2013. <br />
<br />
These are examples, and nothing like a comprehensive list.<br />
<br />
== Balancing Act ==<br />
[[File:Nusra Scale.png|left|290px]]There is a widespread but not necessarily true belief that Syria's rebels turn or will turn to Islamic extremist groups like Jabhat Al-Nusra, due to a lack of Western support, a mangled "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld Jihad vs. McWorld]" conception. The young boy in Syria seen at left, partaking in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9NZY0t4qw an early December demonstration in Isqat] (far north), apparently understands the perceived problem (unless he didn't really make the sign). <br />
<br />
However, it's entirely conceivable, to put it mildly, for the opposition in whole to take the support of both the West and the Jihadists, and use them together for an end more in line with the goals of one side or the other. All the talk of balance might be nothing more than a clever opposition playing supporters off against each other to accelerate a competition of support they can reap profitably on both ends.<br />
<br />
== US Listing as a Terrorist Group ==<br />
[[File:Victory Front execution in Aleppo.jpg|thumb|A photograph published by the Al-Nusra Front to Protect the Levant showing the [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|execution of prisoners in Aleppo]]]]<br />
The decision to list the Front as a terrorist organization, thus criminalizing privite support for the group, was announced in late November, during the lead-up to the "Friends of Syria" meeting set for December 12, 2012 in Marrakesh, Morocco. The actual listing by the U.S. State Department came on December 10, following immediately president Obama's extension of recognition to the new Rebel council as the legitimate representatives of the Syrian people. The Christian Science Monitor reported on the move made with "lightning speed": <br />
:''The speed with which the US government moved to designate a fairly new group that has never attacked US interests and is engaged in fighting a regime that successive administrations have demonized is evidence of the strange bedfellows and overlapping agendas that make the Syrian civil war so explosive.'' <ref name="CSM1">[http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1210/US-designates-Syria-s-Jabhat-al-Nusra-front-a-terrorist-group-at-lightning-speed US designates Syria's Jabhat al-Nusra front a 'terrorist' group at lightning speed] By Dan Murphy, Staff writer, Cristain Science Monitor, December 10, 2012</ref><br />
The State Department confirmed earlier accusations that Jabhat Al-Nusra was a direct offshoot of Al Qaeda in Iraq. <ref name="CSM1"/> One of its more prominent members killed in fighting in January, 2013, was claimed by Jordanian Salafists as a brother-in-law of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, AQI's onetime leader. <br />
<br />
=== Protest Against the Listing ===<br />
Many rebels who'd been fighting with Al-Nusra, enjoying its often-stunning successes, and not being too upset with its cruel excesses, voiced displeasure with the decision and protested. As the New York Times reported:<br />
:''But a growing number of anti-government groups — including fighters in the loose-knit Free Syrian Army that the United States is trying to bolster — have signed petitions or posted statements online in recent days expressing support for the Nusra Front. In keeping with a tradition throughout the uprising of choosing themes for Friday protests, the biggest day for demonstrations because it coincides with Friday Prayer, many called for this Friday’s title to be “No to American intervention — '''we are all Jabhet al-Nusra'''.” <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
Lindey Hilsum, Channel 4 (UK) wrote on the more official response:<br />
:''“There is nothing wrong with fighting in the name of Islam,” said the coalition leader, Ahmed Moaz al-Khatib, a moderate imam, in his speech to assembled ministers and diplomats. He requested the Americans to reconsider their decision.''<br />
<br />
:''“We will work with everybody on the ground who has an agenda which includes ending the suffering of the Syrian people,” said Yaser Tabbara, a coalition spokesman. “If al-Nusra is on the same page, they will be dealt with using dialogue and containment.”'' <ref name="LH">[http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/jabhat-al-nusra-terrorists-or-opposition-assets/1154 Jabhat al-Nusra: Terrorists or opposition assets?] Lindsey Hilsum, Channel 4 blog, Wednesday 12 Dec 2012</ref><br />
<br />
Guardian reporter Martin Chulov, a reliable ally of the rebels all along, expressed shock at the protests with [https://twitter.com/martinchulov/status/278826599191818240 the following tweet]: <br />
:''Choking on coffees in Marrakesh: #Syrian oppn leader Khatib asks US to reverse decisn to brand Jabhat al-lNusra terrorists #news''<br />
<br />
Turkish officials reportedly complained on January 17 that the front should not have been declared terrorists until after the war was over. <br />
:''Turkey also criticized the timing of Washington’s decision to declare the Jabhat al-Nusra front, an Islamist group at the forefront of the fight against the Syrian government, as a terrorist organization ... while noting U.S. support for Turkey’s efforts to combat terrorism and plans on stopping terrorism financing.'' <ref name="HD">[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/al-assad-in-his-last-six-months-us-estimates.aspx?pageID=238&nID=39248&NewsCatID=359 Al-Assad in his last six months, US estimates] Tolga Tanış, Hurriyet Daily News, January 17, 2013</ref> <br />
This ironic set of statements came as the Turks planned another enabled border-crossing at [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|Ras Al-Ayn]], with Al-Nusrah jihadists driving tanks into the Kurdish town once again on the 18th, <ref name="AFP1">[http://www.news24.com/World/News/Syria-Clashes-pit-Kurds-against-jihadists-20130118 Syria Clashes pit Kurds against jihadists] AFP via News 24, January 18, 2013</ref>, and at the same time [http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/turkey-anti-terror-arrests-target-prominent-human-rights-lawyers-2013-01-18 Turkey arrested 15 prominent lawyers and human rights activists] under counter-terrorism laws, allegedly as part of a crackdown on some leftist group.<br />
<br />
== Created by the Syrian Government? ==<br />
A rather strange article by Hazem Al-Amin (from Al-Hayat, Jan. 13, 2013, translated and re-posted by Al-Arabiya Jan. 20) seems to make a case that Jabhat Al-Nusra pre-dates the Syrian uprising by decades, and is essentially a creation of the Syrian government, as a "trap" for the opposition. It's quite the conspiracy theory, with no apparent support except arguing that in years past the same was done with "al-Talea" to ensare the Muslim Brotherhood. Some excerpts:<br />
:''Any attempt at identifying al-Nusra Front with the revolution is supported by the way facts on the grounds are pushed to that direction. The regime has always been doing that so that it could establish al-Nusra as the only available alternative in case the Syrians decide to demand change.'' <br />
<br />
:''Today the facts that are being revealed prove that the Syrian regime has to be toppled as soon as possible. Among those facts is the way '''the regime used al-Nusra and similar groups in its conflict with the Syrian people in the 1970s and 1980s''' as well as in its regional wars, especially with militant networks in Iraq, throughout the past decade. Now it is back to the same strategy through creating of al-Nusra the only opposition faction. Add to this the return of the militants previously sent to Iraq to fight the Syrian regime together with other fighters from Iraq and other countries.'' <br />
<br />
:''The model of al-Nusra has always served the Syrian regime’s ends and which always revolve around stripping the conflict of its political dimension.''<br />
<br />
An awful lot of people who seem opposed to the government (regime) have been suckered, if Mr. Al-Amin is the slightest bit correct. All other evidence suggests he is not.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
== External links==<br />
* [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18048033 Profile: Syria's al-Nusra Front] – BBC, 10 April 2013<br />
<br />
[[Category:Groups]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Jabhat_Al-Nusra&diff=5990Jabhat Al-Nusra2013-08-15T09:13:30Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Nusra Flag.png|thumb]]<br />
'''Jabhat al-Nusra''' is a Salafist fighting group in Syria, formed in July 2011 as the initially unofficial Syrian wing of '''al Qaeda in Iraq'''<ref>[http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/al-qaeda-announces-an-islamic-state-in-syria#.UWTjDn9M5Dc.twitter Al-Qaeda Announces an Islamic State in Syria] - Aaron Y. Zelin, April 9, 2013</ref><ref><br />
<br />
[http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/al-qaeda-levant-awaits-its-emir Al-Qaeda in the Levant Awaits its Emir] – Radwan Mortada, April 11, 2013<br />
</ref> and allied with - but rejecting the perceived pro-West constraints on - the Free Syrian Army (FSA). The group is also called sl-Nusra Front (Arabic: جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام Jabhat al-Nusra li-Ahl al-Sham, meaning: "The Support Front for the People of the Levant [Greater Syria]") and bears the flag shown at right. <ref name="WP">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front Al-Nusra Front] Wikpedia. Last modified on 12 December 2012 at 22:53</ref> Generally considered one of the most effective and best-supported groups in the struggle against Syria's government (sometimes called [http://www.businessinsider.com/syrias-rebels-terrorists-2012-12 "Syria's Best Rebel Fighters"]), they became infamous for gross violations of Human Rights and were listed by the United States as a terrorist organization - in fact, as a different name for the organisation also known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq - in December 2012.<br />
<br />
== Goals ==<br />
A January 2013 "strategic briefing" by Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake of the anti-extremist think-tank Quilliam Foundation gives a quite detailed report of origins, goals and strategy of the organization.<ref name="QF">[http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/publications/free/jabhat-al-nusra-a-strategic-briefing.pdf Jabhat Al-Nusra: A Strategic Briefing], Noman Benotman and Roisin Blake, Quilliam Foundation, January 2013 (13 page pdf, 450kb)</ref> In February 2013 a leading Jihadi internet forum produced a "comprehensive strategy for Syria" paper in a collaborative effort which mentions Al-Nusra several times as "our brothers on the ground" and shines further light on ideology, goals and strategy. It was translated into English by Cole Bunzel of the monitoring site "Jihadica" in late February.<ref name="AQCS">[http://www.jihadica.com/al-qaeda-advises-the-syrian-revolution-shumukh-al-islams-“comprehensive-strategy”-for-syria/ Al-Qaeda Advises the Syrian Revolution: Shumukh al-Islam’s “Comprehensive Strategy” for Syria], translated by Cole Bunzel, February 25, 2013</ref><br />
<br />
Contrary to groups like the FSA, the fall of the Assad government is only a short-term goal for Al Nusra, while the end-goal is to establish an Islamist caliphate in all of what they call Al-Sham - not the modern Syria in the borders defined by the Sykes-Picot-Agreement, but basically the whole Levant including Jordan, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine and Iraq, and finally the whole Muslim world. On this way, even groups like the Muslim Brotherhood are seen as a puppet force of the "Crusader" conspiracy and called "secular Islamists" or pseudo-Muslims and counted among the enemies of the "pure creed".<br />
<br />
== An Effective Force ==<br />
The New York Times reported how rebel fighters had come to value Al-Nusra "because of its fighters’ bravery and reliable supply of money and arms." Further, they reported the Front "has never come under the banner of the Free Syrian Army, shunning the Western aid and input that other groups have sought, but it coordinates closely with many who do." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/world/middleeast/us-designates-syrian-al-nusra-front-as-terrorist-group.html?_r=0 U.S. Places Militant Syrian Rebel Group on List of Terrorist Organizations] By MICHAEL R. GORDON and ANNE BARNARD, New York Times. Published: December 10, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
(more forthcoming...)<br />
<br />
== A Criminal Force ==<br />
The group has been identified as involved in a number of heinous and criminal acts across Syria, with a handy partial list at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Attacks the Wikipedia page]. Jabhat Al-Nusra was one of the few groups to explicitly refuse recognizing UN envoy Brahimi's late October [[Eid Al-Adha Cease-Fire|Eid Al-Adha cease-fire proposal]], to which both the government and the FSA agreed. The cease-fire was shattered almost immediately by, among other things, terrorist car bombings in Damascus thought to be carried out by the Front. They have claimed responsibility for a vast majority of the car bombings, suicide and otherwise, that have been carried out so far in the Syrian war. <br />
<br />
Al-Nusra were described as prominent in the audacious repeated assaults [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|on the border town of Ras Al-Ayn]]. They were involved in the destruction of an Al-Ikhbaria TV station near Damascus, and later the execution of a news presenter. Al-Nusra were blamed by locals and officials for the twisted [[Haswiyeh Massacre]], also of Jan. 15, in Homs. It seems they operated the alleged bakery (a shipping center, actually) targeted in the [[Halfaya Bakery Bombing]] near Hama. They seem to be behind the killing of Shi'ite guards, executives, and workers at the Syrian Petroleum Company's center in Al-Shaddadi, Hasakah province, in mid-February 2012 (see [[Al-Shaddadi Petroluem Company Massacre]]) <br />
<br />
Jabhat Al-Nusra has been especially active in and around Syria's largest city of Aleppo in the north. They documented themselves [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|executing dozens of army soldiers]] there in September, 2012. They later declared a "no-fly zone" over Aleppo, threatening to shoot down commercial airliners if they felt they carried weapons. They've been blamed for the [[Aleppo University Attack]] of Jan. 15, 2013 (perhaps in part to help underscore the importance of their "no-fly zone"). They were blamed by some for the [[Queiq River Massacre]], in which some 80 or more local men and boys were executed and found in a rebel-held stretch of the Queiq river in Aleppo in January, 2013. <br />
<br />
These are examples, and nothing like a comprehensive list.<br />
<br />
== Balancing Act ==<br />
[[File:Nusra Scale.png|left|290px]]There is a widespread but not necessarily true belief that Syria's rebels turn or will turn to Islamic extremist groups like Jabhat Al-Nusra, due to a lack of Western support, a mangled "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld Jihad vs. McWorld]" conception. The young boy in Syria seen at left, partaking in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9NZY0t4qw an early December demonstration in Isqat] (far north), apparently understands the perceived problem (unless he didn't really make the sign). <br />
<br />
However, it's entirely conceivable, to put it mildly, for the opposition in whole to take the support of both the West and the Jihadists, and use them together for an end more in line with the goals of one side or the other. All the talk of balance might be nothing more than a clever opposition playing supporters off against each other to accelerate a competition of support they can reap profitably on both ends.<br />
<br />
== US Listing as a Terrorist Group ==<br />
[[File:Victory Front execution in Aleppo.jpg|thumb|A photograph published by the Al-Nusra Front to Protect the Levant showing the [[Aleppo prisoner massacres|execution of prisoners in Aleppo]]]]<br />
The decision to list the Front as a terrorist organization, thus criminalizing privite support for the group, was announced in late November, during the lead-up to the "Friends of Syria" meeting set for December 12, 2012 in Marrakesh, Morocco. The actual listing by the U.S. State Department came on December 10, following immediately president Obama's extension of recognition to the new Rebel council as the legitimate representatives of the Syrian people. The Christian Science Monitor reported on the move made with "lightning speed": <br />
:''The speed with which the US government moved to designate a fairly new group that has never attacked US interests and is engaged in fighting a regime that successive administrations have demonized is evidence of the strange bedfellows and overlapping agendas that make the Syrian civil war so explosive.'' <ref name="CSM1">[http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1210/US-designates-Syria-s-Jabhat-al-Nusra-front-a-terrorist-group-at-lightning-speed US designates Syria's Jabhat al-Nusra front a 'terrorist' group at lightning speed] By Dan Murphy, Staff writer, Cristain Science Monitor, December 10, 2012</ref><br />
The State Department confirmed earlier accusations that Jabhat Al-Nusra was a direct offshoot of Al Qaeda in Iraq. <ref name="CSM1"/> One of its more prominent members killed in fighting in January, 2013, was claimed by Jordanian Salafists as a brother-in-law of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, AQI's onetime leader. <br />
<br />
=== Protest Against the Listing ===<br />
Many rebels who'd been fighting with Al-Nusra, enjoying its often-stunning successes, and not being too upset with its cruel excesses, voiced displeasure with the decision and protested. As the New York Times reported:<br />
:''But a growing number of anti-government groups — including fighters in the loose-knit Free Syrian Army that the United States is trying to bolster — have signed petitions or posted statements online in recent days expressing support for the Nusra Front. In keeping with a tradition throughout the uprising of choosing themes for Friday protests, the biggest day for demonstrations because it coincides with Friday Prayer, many called for this Friday’s title to be “No to American intervention — '''we are all Jabhet al-Nusra'''.” <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
Lindey Hilsum, Channel 4 (UK) wrote on the more official response:<br />
:''“There is nothing wrong with fighting in the name of Islam,” said the coalition leader, Ahmed Moaz al-Khatib, a moderate imam, in his speech to assembled ministers and diplomats. He requested the Americans to reconsider their decision.''<br />
<br />
:''“We will work with everybody on the ground who has an agenda which includes ending the suffering of the Syrian people,” said Yaser Tabbara, a coalition spokesman. “If al-Nusra is on the same page, they will be dealt with using dialogue and containment.”'' <ref name="LH">[http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-international-affairs/jabhat-al-nusra-terrorists-or-opposition-assets/1154 Jabhat al-Nusra: Terrorists or opposition assets?] Lindsey Hilsum, Channel 4 blog, Wednesday 12 Dec 2012</ref><br />
<br />
Guardian reporter Martin Chulov, a reliable ally of the rebels all along, expressed shock at the protests with [https://twitter.com/martinchulov/status/278826599191818240 the following tweet]: <br />
:''Choking on coffees in Marrakesh: #Syrian oppn leader Khatib asks US to reverse decisn to brand Jabhat al-lNusra terrorists #news''<br />
<br />
Turkish officials reportedly complained on January 17 that the front should not have been declared terrorists until after the war was over. <br />
:''Turkey also criticized the timing of Washington’s decision to declare the Jabhat al-Nusra front, an Islamist group at the forefront of the fight against the Syrian government, as a terrorist organization ... while noting U.S. support for Turkey’s efforts to combat terrorism and plans on stopping terrorism financing.'' <ref name="HD">[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/al-assad-in-his-last-six-months-us-estimates.aspx?pageID=238&nID=39248&NewsCatID=359 Al-Assad in his last six months, US estimates] Tolga Tanış, Hurriyet Daily News, January 17, 2013</ref> <br />
This ironic set of statements came as the Turks planned another enabled border-crossing at [[Assault on Ras Al-Ayn|Ras Al-Ayn]], with Al-Nusrah jihadists driving tanks into the Kurdish town once again on the 18th, <ref name="AFP1">[http://www.news24.com/World/News/Syria-Clashes-pit-Kurds-against-jihadists-20130118 Syria Clashes pit Kurds against jihadists] AFP via News 24, January 18, 2013</ref>, and at the same time [http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/turkey-anti-terror-arrests-target-prominent-human-rights-lawyers-2013-01-18 Turkey arrested 15 prominent lawyers and human rights activists] under counter-terrorism laws, allegedly as part of a crackdown on some leftist group.<br />
<br />
== Created by the Syrian Government? ==<br />
A rather strange article by Hazem Al-Amin (from Al-Hayat, Jan. 13, 2013, translated and re-posted by Al-Arabiya Jan. 20) seems to make a case that Jabhat Al-Nusra pre-dates the Syrian uprising by decades, and is essentially a creation of the Syrian government, as a "trap" for the opposition. It's quite the conspiracy theory, with no apparent support except arguing that in years past the same was done with "al-Talea" to ensare the Muslim Brotherhood. Some excerpts:<br />
:''Any attempt at identifying al-Nusra Front with the revolution is supported by the way facts on the grounds are pushed to that direction. The regime has always been doing that so that it could establish al-Nusra as the only available alternative in case the Syrians decide to demand change.'' <br />
<br />
:''Today the facts that are being revealed prove that the Syrian regime has to be toppled as soon as possible. Among those facts is the way '''the regime used al-Nusra and similar groups in its conflict with the Syrian people in the 1970s and 1980s''' as well as in its regional wars, especially with militant networks in Iraq, throughout the past decade. Now it is back to the same strategy through creating of al-Nusra the only opposition faction. Add to this the return of the militants previously sent to Iraq to fight the Syrian regime together with other fighters from Iraq and other countries.'' <br />
<br />
:''The model of al-Nusra has always served the Syrian regime’s ends and which always revolve around stripping the conflict of its political dimension.''<br />
<br />
An awful lot of people who seem opposed to the government (regime) have been suckered, if Mr. Al-Amin is the slightest bit correct. All other evidence suggests he is not.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
== External links==<br />
* [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18048033 Profile: Syria's al-Nusra Front] – BBC, 10 April 2013<br />
<br />
[[Category:Groups]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jokkmokks_goran&diff=5975User talk:Jokkmokks goran2013-08-14T21:11:19Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: </p>
<hr />
<div>--Hi<br />
<br />
I have made some corrections of Arabic translations.<br />
I hope I haven't made a mistake by correcting them.<br />
I suddenly realised that I made changes to other peoples postings.<br />
<br />
Sorry if I caused any inconvenience. <br />
<br />
/--[[User:Jokkmokks goran|Jokkmokks goran]] ([[User talk:Jokkmokks goran|talk]]) 21:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jokkmokks_goran&diff=5974User talk:Jokkmokks goran2013-08-14T21:10:36Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: </p>
<hr />
<div>Hi<br />
<br />
I have made some corrections of Arabic translations.<br />
I hope I haven't made a mistake by correcting them.<br />
I suddenly realised that I made changes to other peoples postings.<br />
<br />
Sorry if I caused any inconvenience. <br />
<br />
/Goran</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Tal_Abyad_massacre&diff=5973Tal Abyad massacre2013-08-14T21:03:27Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: Improving translation</p>
<hr />
<div>== Sources ==<br />
<br />
=== August 5, 2013 ===<br />
[[File:Afghanistan children killed.jpg|thumb|Afghan children killed in "Nato bombing"]]<br />
This was just published by PressTV: -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/08/05/317331/syria-militants-kill-450-kurd-civilians/ Militants kill 450 Kurdish civilians in northern Syria]<br />
:''Foreign-backed militants fighting against the Syrian government have killed 450 civilians, including 120 children, in a Kurdish-majority area in northern Syria.''<br />
:''According to al-Alam, militants from al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front attacked Tal Abyad district of Raqqa governorate on Monday, killing 330 women and elderly men as well as 120 children.''<br />
:''The massacre comes a week after al-Nusra militants attacked two Kurdish villages in Aleppo and took hostage around 200 civilians.''<br />
<br />
* [http://en.alalam.ir/news/1502236 120 children slaughtered in Syria's Tal Abyad] – al Alam, August 05, 2013 2:56 PM<br />
:''Terrorists affiliated to al-Nusra Front have massacred 120 children and 330 men and women in Syria's northern district of Tal Abyad, al-Alam reports.''<br />
:''According to our reporter, terrorists attacked villages in Tal Abyad, near al-Hasakah governorate on Monday, killing civilians including women and children.''<br />
:''The Kurdish dominated region of Tal Abyad located in north of Al-Raqqa governorate, was already volatile after terrorist groups from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and al-Nusra Front attacked the region weeks ago to take it under control.''<br />
:''Deadly clashes have been going on in the region as Kurds gathered volunteer fighters and started to stand against terrorists.''<br />
:''Kurds have come under attack in Aleppo as well, where earlier this week terrorists launched an assault on Tall `Aran and Tall Hasel, killing and abducting many people and forcing others to leave.''<br />
:''Videos posted online by the militant groups showed hundreds of women and children in Tall `Aran, lying dead on the ground after their homes and plant fields were bombed.''<br />
<br />
* [http://www.aawsat.net/2013/08/article55312452 Kurdish organization in Iran is prepared to send fighters to Syria] – Sherzad Shekhani, 5 Aug, 2013<br />
:''Erbil, Asharq Al-Awsat—The Party of Free Life of Kurdistan (PJAK), a Kurdish organization in Iran, has announced that it is “ready to send fighters to Syrian Kurdistan to fight beside their people.”''<br />
:''The decision comes in the light of ongoing clashes between the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) in Syria and Islamist groups such as Jabhat Al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).''<br />
:''Sources within Syria pointed out that “fatwas are broadcast from mosques in the region that permit Kurdish blood to be spilled. This development is very dangerous and is reminiscent of the infamous Operation Anfal, but this time against Syrian Kurds.”''<br />
:''A source within the People’s Protection Unit (YPG), which is affiliated with the PYD, informed Asharq Al-Awsat that 63 people were killed yesterday in clashes between Kurdish fighters and Jabhat Al-Nusra and ISIS. The source added that Kurdish fighters had seized weapons, ammunition and armored fighting vehicles.''<br />
:''“As a result of increasing threats and terrorist forces consolidated against us . . . as well as some members from the Free Syrian Army (FSA) joining this suspicious alliance, there is an urgent and intense desire among young men and women from Kurdish areas to join the YPG.”''<br />
:''The source continued, explaining that “many of them are now aware of the overt agendas of forces hostile to the Kurdish people within Syria. As such, they have proceeded to defend the rights that they recently had access to, thanks to the Democratic Union Party. Every day we receive hundreds of young men and women coming to volunteer, and we are currently working to assimilate them—despite our modest means.”''<br />
:''Sherzad Al-Yazidi, the official spokesperson for the People’s Council of West Kurdistan, said in a statement to Asharq Al-Awsat that “What occurred in Tell Abyad, and is happening today in Ramilan and Ras Al-Ain, was elements and forces from the Free Syrian Army participating . . . in a race war against us.”''<br />
:''Yazidi claimed that FSA units had been brought in from Deir Ezzor and Raqqa to participate in the “race war,” and that they had “deliberate intentions” to “eliminate the model of Kurdish governance, which we have proposed for Syria overall—a model of coexistence and brotherhood, away from sectarianism and racism.”''<br />
:''“Nevertheless,” he concluded, “what we see today in the Kurdish streets—a united youth who are willing to sacrifice their lives in defense of the freedom that they have achieved—confirms that enemies’ intentions will fail.”''<br />
<br />
* [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.com/2013/08/first-post-august-5-2013-obamas-jabhat.html Syrian Perspective]<br />
:''It has been confirmed, the NATO-created Jabhat Al-Nusra freak rodents and their allies in the Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia and the Levant, came out of Turkey, armed by Erdoghan and Saudi Arabia, trained by the U.S. and its allies, and MASSACRED 120 INNOCENT CHILDREN AND 300 MOTHERS in the town of Tal Abyadh in Kurdish-controlled Al-Raqqa. We are in contact with Aslan in Iskandaroon today and he tells me that the anger amongst Turkish officers, especially after the recent military shake-up, is bursting. Turks are fully aware that Erdoghan is supporting these acts of inhuman outrage. We will be receiving more news as the Kurdish media services begin sending in their reports in detail about this heinous and atrocious crime aided and abetted by Obama and his simian Saudi allies.''<br />
<br />
* [http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920514001077 120 Children Slaughtered in Syria's Tal Abyad] – Fars News Agency, Aug 05, 2013 4:48<br />
:''According to al-Alam, terrorists attacked villages in Tal Abyad, near al-Hasakah governorate, killing civilians including women and children.''<br />
<br />
=== August 6, 2013 ===<br />
* [http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/08/05/317373/militants-set-syrian-kurds-on-fire-video/ Militants set Syrian Kurds on fire, new video footage shows] – PressTV, Aug 5, 2013 10:41PM GMT<br />
:''A gruesome video has emerged on the Internet, showing foreign-backed militants in Syria setting three Syrian Kurds on fire.''<br />
:''The video, which was posted online on Monday, shows the al-Qaeda-affiliated group al-Nusra Front militants pouring a flammable liquid on the hand-cuffed, blind-folded men who appear to be Syrian Kurd soldiers.''<br />
:''The militants then push the three into a fire they have made.''<br />
:''Reports said that al-Nusra militants attacked Tal Abyad district of Raqqa governorate in northern Syria on Monday, killing 450 civilians. The victims were said to be women, children and the elderly.''<br />
<br />
* [http://en.alalam.ir/News/1502422 Al-Nusra terrorists burn 3 Syrians alive] – al Alam, August 06, 2013 8:10 AM<br />
:''A gruesome video has emerged on the Internet, showing al-Qaeda-affiliated group al-Nusra Front terrorists setting three Syrians on fire.''<br />
:::Clay Claiborne [http://claysbeach.blogspot.fi/2013/08/irans-presstv-promotes-fake-syrian.html shows] this video is from Iraq from 2011. (No, [http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/191234.php 2007]) -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Kurdish sources ===<br />
Kurdish sources: I made the round through the usual Kurdish outlets and while they're full of news about the escalating fights between YPG and the Takfiri Robots, there's nothing about that specific event so far, which is kind of odd. The 63 dead in fighting mentioned in the Sherzad Shekhani article quoted above show up, but no single event with 450 dead in Tal Abyad. Not on [http://rudaw.net/english Rudaw], not on [http://en.firatnews.com/ Firat], not on [http://www.diekurden.de/ Die Kurden]. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 13:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I could not find anything either. Nothing on YouTube of the "videos posted online by the militant groups" supposedly showing hundreds of bodies. I collected videos [http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUGwHwTrSGXuf-nyby4-59bO on a playlist] but all I have is fighting between Kurds and al-Nusra.<br />
<br />
:No mention of a Tell Abyad / Tal Abyad / Til Ebyed / Girê Spî massacre on this Kurdish [https://www.facebook.com/PydInfo PDY Info page.] There is this one post [https://www.facebook.com/PydInfo/posts/665825976778405 from August 1, 2013.]<br />
::''In the last few days over 50 civilian Kurds have been executed by Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS members in Til Eran and Til Hasil. Most of the civilians executed are mothers, fathers and siblings to Jabhat al-Ekrad members (Jabhat al-Ekrad have been fighting both the ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra).''<br />
:-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Yeah, this incident with the 50 civilians killed in the other villages (close to Aleppo) I have found articles about as well. That seems to have taken place some days earlier around the turn Juli/August and directly related to the kidnapping of the 200 civilians. There's all hell breaking loose in the region atm. "Funny" that we hear not a beep about that in the corporate press, isn't it? Well, we know why. Anyway, I monitored the #TwitterKurds stream a while, still not much about this event and if so, only references to the PressTV/AlAlam item. RT [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM3aiaqsMqU picked it up] in a short report. The demonstration at the end of it is likely in Ceylanpinar, the Turkish part of Serekaniye... --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 22:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Thanks, guys. I haven't even barely touched this and already two people are more on it, wow. Sounds pretty iffy, between the misatributed (?) photo and lack of verifying reports. But from the locale, looking for a new entry point, makes too much sense to dismiss totally yet. Notlikely to be simple confusion with these other civilian mass killings, which are in towns (tal-Aran and Tal-Hasl) around al-Safirah SE of Aleppo. That's of interest as well and seems more supported and in line with the known rebel policy of targeting whole families on lines of the adult males' politics. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 22:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Wow, I wonder why there was no edit conflict? Smart software. :o) See above, I agree that the other one is better supported. Maybe we need a general page covering this new Kurds vs. Turds war? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 22:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Quick discussion here. That sounds like a good plan. That name wouldn't work, but as a nickname I love it. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 22:12, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: I'll bring the Ras Al-Ayn article up to date tonight. It's important to this. From what I know so far it (re-)started around two weeks ago when the Turds attacked a convoy of female YPG fighters ("ey, why don't you wear a sack?"), which led to the end of the ceasefire/agreement and the Kurds kicked them out for good, apparently this time including from the border crossing which they now control, which could mean as you said that the Turds indeed need a new entry in Akcacale/Tal Abyad. And Ceylanpinar sees solidarity demonstrations with Turks coming from all over the region and camping in some park... amazing stuff. Details later over there. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 22:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::From what I read elsewhere the latest round of violence started from the split between al-Nusra and ISIS. The Kurds had a truce with al-Nusra, but ISIS did not want to respect it. The stories now however speak about fighting between the Kurds and ''al-Nusra'', not ISIS. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:"400 kidnapped" might explain a lot. It is just possible that the videos were on line on YouTube, but were pulled by the Kurdish sources. There may be negotiation going on and they do not want to [https://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/did-secret-deal-between-erdogan-and-syrian-kurd-pyd-lead-to-massacre-of/ "complicate" the situation.] I do not think YouTube / NSA / CIA could have censored all this, but who knows. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== August 4 ====<br />
Salih Muslim, the co-chair of the Syrian Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) interviewed by Taraf (Turkey), August 3rd or 4th:<br />
* [http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/2013/08/turkey-still-allowing-weapons-to-jabhat-al-nusra.html PYD Leader To Turkey: Stop Arms to Jabhat al-Nusra] – al-Monitor, August 7 2013 (First Published: August 4, 2013)<br />
:''We discussed Turkey not allowing them to cross the border and for Turkey to exert pressure on the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and other opposition groups to isolate Jabhat al-Nusra. This was promised. But on Aug. 2, eyewitnesses reported to us that between 8 and 10 pm, vehicles carrying weapons and ammunition crossed from Karkamis gate of Gaziantep. Our people on the Syrian side confirmed the reports. The weapons were transferred to Arab villages, mostly Shiyoh, west of Kobani. They are '''getting ready to attack''' Kobani and civilians. Salafists '''killed so many civilians''', but the world kept silent. Kobani is next.''<br />
:''It is impossible to understand how Turkey can permit this. If Nusra is an enemy, then this must be stopped. If Turkey is against Nusra, then it must be on our side.''<br />
<br />
==== August 5 ====<br />
* [http://en.firatnews.com/news/news/ypg-operations-continue.htm YPG operations continue] – ANF, 05.08.2013<br />
:''Clashes between YPG (Kurdish People's Defense Units) and al-Qaeda-linked armed groups are continuing in the Western Kurdistan areas of Kobani, Tirbespiyê and Çelaxa.''<br />
:'''''Til Ebyad''' (Girê Spî): clashes were reported in the village of Susikê. YPG managed to clear the area and seized weaponry.''<br />
<br />
* [https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/364473351911112704 Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa] 10:49 PM - 5 Aug 2013<br />
:''YPG spokesman: "Since we started fighting Jihadists, 70 civilian kurds were killed, 400 kidnapped." #twitterkurds''<br />
<br />
==== August 6 ====<br />
* [http://en.firatnews.com/news/news/convoys-heading-towards-ceylanpinar.htm Convoys heading towards Ceylanpınar] – ANF - Urfa, 06.08.2013<br />
:''New convoys are heading towards Ceylanpınar to join the vigil for the people of Rojava and against the '''massacres carried out by al-Qaeda'''-linked armed groups. The convoys started off from Adıyaman.''<br />
:''The vigil has been organized by the BDP (Peace and Democracy Party) and the DTK (Democratic Society Congress) and continues despite the heavy police repression.''<br />
<br />
==== August 7 ====<br />
:PYD tweeted [https://twitter.com/pydinfo/status/365140695247372289 an hour ago]: "200 Kurdish civilians in Til Ebyed are still being held in captivity by Jabhat al Nusra. They are in dire condition.". Fits. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 17:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== August 8 ====<br />
* [http://en.firatnews.com/news/news/200-kurds-still-in-the-hands-of-armed-groups.htm 200 Kurds still in the hands of armed groups] – ANF, 08.08.2013<br />
:''It is reported that some 200 Kurdish civilians in Til Abyad are still being held in captivity by Jabhat al Nusra. They are in dire condition.''<br />
:''On 5 August foreign-backed and allegedly al-Qaeda-linked militants have killed 450 civilians, including 120 children, in Kurdish-majority Tal Abyad in northern Syria.<br />
:'''''According to al-Alam''', militants from al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front attacked Tal Abyad district of Raqqa governorate on Monday, killing 330 women and elderly men as well as 120 children.''<br />
:''The massacre comes a week after al-Nusra militants attacked two Kurdish villages in Aleppo and took hostage around 200 civilians.''<br />
:Kurdish sources citing ''al-Alam''. Where did ''al-Alam'' get the story? -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Here is another Kurdish source that has no real information but only quotes what al Alam and RT are saying, Peace in Kurdistan Campaign Statement:<br />
* [http://kurdistantribune.com/2013/defend-kurds-syria-from-massacre-ethnic-cleansing/ Defend the Kurds in Syria from massacre and ethnic cleansing] – August 8, 2013<br />
<br />
==== August 9 ====<br />
* [http://hawarnews.com/index.php/component/content/article/43-2013-02-24-21-16-12/5128-2013-08-09-08-37-11 Alaa Jittu: We refused the pledge allegiance to them without their recognition of the Free Army] – hawarnews.com ([http://ar.firatnews.com/news/akhr-l-khbr/l-jtw-rfdn-mby-thm-l-dm-trfhm-bljysh-lhr.htm mirror])<br />
:''Jittu emphasized that some of the battalions of the Free [Army] that attacked Tel 'Iran withdrew after learning the truth, but Jabhat an-Nusra and the Islamic State conquered the town and committed massacres and kidnapped unarmed civilians. He said that there are still more than 200 incarcerated civilians in the hands of the Islamic State and noted that both Jabhat an-Nusra and the state of Islam committed massacres against the civilians in both Tal 'Iran and Tal Hasil, and before that in Tal Abyad, under total silence from most of the Free Army battalions.''<br />
<br />
==== August 11 ====<br />
* [http://www.france24.com/en/20130811-syria-rebels-pass-kurd-hostages-jihadists Syria rebels pass 'Kurd hostages to jihadists'] – AFP, 11 August 2013<br />
:''Syrian rebel fighters kidnapped 13 Kurds in the northern province of Aleppo on Sunday, turning them over to jihadist fighters already holding 250 abducted Kurds, an NGO said.''<br />
:''The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said the 13 were snatched at a roadblock in the Sfeira region of Aleppo and passed them on to Al-Nusra Front, a jihadist group affiliated with Al-Qaeda.''<br />
:''Al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), another Al-Qaeda-linked group operating in Syria, have abducted more than 250 Syrian Kurds since the end of July.''<br />
:''The majority were taken hostage as the two groups overran two Kurdish villages, Tall Aren and Tall Hassel, at the end of July.''<br />
<br />
=== Russian sources ===<br />
Russia is still insisting the story of massacre is true.<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/lavrov-kurds-syria-massacre-161/ UNSC should condemn crimes committed against Kurds in Syria - Lavrov] – RT, August 07, 2013<br />
:''The UN Security Council must unambiguously condemn the reported killings of Kurds by radical forces, which try to establish an Islamist state in Syria, says Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.''<br />
:''Lavrov commented on Wednesday on the reported slaughter of 450 Kurd civilians, including more than 120 children, by the Islamist Al-Nusra Front.''<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/syria-kurds-massacre-lavrov-132/ Disturbing report alleges killings of 450 Kurds in Syria] – RT, August 07, 2013<br />
:''According to Iranian TV channel Al-Alam, militants from the Jabhat al-Nusra Front attacked the town of Tal Abyad on Monday, killing 120 children and 330 women and elderly near the Turkish border.''<br />
:''The channel also '''ran horrific uncensored footage from the scene''' - the authenticity of which can’t be independently verified at this moment. For ethical reasons, RT will refrain from airing the video.''<br />
:''Neither the Syrian government nor the opposition has confirmed the report. RT contacted a number of sources, including several Kurdish interviewees, who testified that increased fighting has been taking place in their areas.''<br />
* [http://www.syrianews.cc/russia-massacre-kurds-syria/ Russia demands UN condemnation of massacre against Kurds in Syria] – M. Klostermayr / Syrianews.cc, August 7, 2013<br />
:''At least, the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov would not have mentioned this mass killing of Syrian Kurds, including about 120 children and many Kurdish women, by the Syrian al-Qaeda offshoot (al-Nusra Front / Jabhat al-Nusra) in case the reports about this next horrible massacre by foreign-supported jihadists and terrorists on Syrian soil would be false and not true. In addition, Russia should know whether such reports and massacres are true or false, to be honest.''<br />
Video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m018ca5In0E Reports Islamists massacre 450 Kurds in Syria, including 120 kids]<br />
<youtube>m018ca5In0E</youtube><br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE_sriTtGcw Disturbing report alleges killings of 450 Kurds in Syria] – RT, August 7<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBeq_M2JEGg Kurdicide: Civilian Kurds slaughtered as Al-Qaeda seeks control in Syria] – RT, August 8<br />
<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/syria-kurds-violence-chaos-279/ Kurds in way: Witness account of atrocities as Al-Nusra Front asserts northern Syria position] – RT, August 09, 2013 ([http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2013/8/syriakurd843.htm mirror])<br />
:''Witnesses are starting to emerge with grisly tales of kidnapping, rape and murder of Kurdish minorities in the north and north-east of Syria. Clashes between Al-Qaeda-linked militants and soldiers of the Kurdish Front have sunk the region into chaos.''<br />
:''“When civilians escaped, they were shot, and militia raided houses, blowing up some and robbing others… they still have more than 200 civilian hostages,” Zakaria Mohammed said speaking exclusively to RT Arabic about the violence that started out with an assault on four towns in the north of Syria.''<br />
:''Mohammed is a speaker and activist for the Kurdish Front, who bore witness to events that began one weekend in late July, as several battalions of FSA, Al-Nusra Front and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant fighters surrounded their headquarters in the town of Tal Hasel.''<br />
:''The clashes quickly spread to Tal Aran, Tal Abyad, and Serekaniye. As a result of there not being any reinforcements to support Kurdish troops’ smaller numbers, the civilian withdrawals resulted in massacres and the kidnapping of over 500 people.''<br />
:''According to Mohammed, those who had managed to escape are currently in safe houses in the city of Afreen. Telecommunications with Tal Aran and Tal Hasel have been severed. Many people, however, are still in danger as violence may once again flare up. Jabhat Al-Nusra Front, together with the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, control the area.''<br />
:''Some have since returned to their homes, facing strict checks by Al-Nusra Front, to determine if they belong to any specific political grouping. Those that do are killed. In any case, one major theory of Islamist anger at the Kurds is the latter’s unwillingness to partake in the wider Syrian conflict. Their ethnic and cultural identity has left Kurds on the sidelines of the wider Syrian conflict.''<br />
:''The Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) is issuing reports that “hundreds of Kurdish civilians have been kidnapped, tortured and their houses have been looted and burned down. These ongoing brutal massacres are targeting all Kurdish civilians in Qamishli, Kobani and Afreen areas.”''<br />
:''The events that started in mid-July have culminated in the carnage of August 5, when 450 people were allegedly killed in Tal Abyad and the surrounding area, with horrific footage emerging from Iranian channel, Al-Alam.''<br />
:''Although the media still has no information on either numbers or the particulars of that day, some Kurds are coming out with very similar reports of recent lootings and attacks on their settlements by Islamic extremists and FSA troops.''<br />
:''“The Al-Nusra militants and other rebel forces surrounded the village,” Yasin Tarbush, a relative of one of the Kurdish attack victims, told RT on August 7. “They started going door to door, entering every house. If there were any men, they killed them and took the women and children hostage.”''<br />
<br />
== Video ==<br />
Still no sign of the massacre video. Some info here:<br />
* [http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/829563.berichte-ueber-gigantisches-massaker-in-syrien.html Berichte über gigantisches Massaker in Syrien]<br />
:''The Iranian state television channel Al-Alam reported on Monday about the massacre, which includes 120 children to have fallen victim to. Accordingly, the village was allegedly attacked on the border with Turkey by the Islamist Al-Nusra front. The upgraded from Saudi Arabia and Qatar militia have been repeatedly accused of massacres of civilians and the execution of prisoners. The massacre had occurred after residents of the village had tried to fight back the attackers armed. A video circulating on the internet since Monday shows the bodies of dozens of children and women.''<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/syria-kurds-massacre-lavrov-132/ Disturbing report alleges killings of 450 Kurds in Syria] – RT, August 07, 2013<br />
:''The channel also ran horrific uncensored footage from the scene - the authenticity of which can’t be independently verified at this moment. For ethical reasons, RT will refrain from airing the video.''<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Turkish television interviewing al-Nusra commander in Tal Abyad on July , 2013:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znuG6pASz6Y A HABER TEL ABYAD 'DA EL NUSRA KOMUTANI HİÇ CANINIZI SIKMAYIN,BİZ SİZİN İÇİN SAVAŞIYORUZ] ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-aYQO7jAME mirror])<br />
::(A news Tel Abyad 'THE COMMANDER OF AL NUSRA "No, do not get annoyed, we are fighting for you.")<br />
:[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znuG6pASz6Y&t=3m03s At 3:05] we hear an English message to the Free World: "Our dear brothers Kurds, we are here to help you."<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 16:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Found it! ===<br />
I think I have finally found the video that was supposedly too horrific for RT to broadcast. al Alam says ''"Videos posted online by the militant groups showed hundreds of women and children in Tall `Aran, lying dead on the ground after their homes and plant fields were bombed."'' (By my standards lying dead on the ground after being bombed does not make an al-Qaeda massacre.)<br />
<br />
Two versions of the video are embedded in this reposting of the FARS News story.<br />
* [http://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/militants-kill-450-kurdish-civilians-in-northern-syria-many-are-burned-alive/ Militants Kill 450 Kurdish Civilians in Northern Syria – Is GENOCIDE!] – Syrianfreepress, August 5, 2013<br />
One version of the video uploaded August 1, is titled [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68jRde-L6CA US-Israel-Turkey en Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra killing Kurdish Muslims in Syria Rojava] The second version was uploaded already on April 18: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBRLku6UkZg +18 Tirbespiyê - Beşar Esad'ın ucakları savunmasız Kürt sivilleri bombalayıp öldürüyor] (+18 Tirbespiyê - Bashar al-Assad planes bombed Kurdish civilians killing defenseless) I already had one version on my playlist uploaded '''April 17''': [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKmX8HGyOsw The first scenes of the massacre in the village of Smith Poet countryside]<br />
<br />
The nine minute video shows women and children running across fields fleeing some shelling or bombing. About 10 wounded or dead people are shown lying on the field after a nearby hit from a stray shell or bomb. The video is [http://hawarnews.com/ watermarked ANHA.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:44, 9 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Other videos ===<br />
The Jawa Report [http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/216667.php finds] this video:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GepZ5gQe5g ROJAVA DA KATLİYAM VAR] (Massacre in Rojava) – Published on Aug 5, 2013 by [http://www.youtube.com/user/moryakup moryakup]<br />
From [http://www.youtube.com/user/moryakup/videos the same channel] we find this:<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnvqtvrVfpk el nusra dan rojava katlimları] (Al Nusra massacre in Rojava) – Published on Aug 3, 2013 by moryakup<br />
The video is a collection of old massacre and war crime footage. Parts of the "blowing up houses material" from [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efpCZdyMkSE August 1st] is included. What shows the video to be just "worthless propaganda" with no value as evidence is the inclusion of photos from the [[Baniyas massacre]] in the end. Besides, [https://www.facebook.com/CNNKurdish there] is no [https://www.facebook.com/pages/CNN-Kurdish-/342132549239701 CNN Kurdish.] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 21:04, 10 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rebuttals ==<br />
I have seen on Facebook someone pushing pictures of a child victim of the Houla massacre (Yasmine Abdul Razaq) as a victim from Tal Abyad. There is the men pushed in the fire video, from Iraq, years old, come to learn. The Afghan children picture, the unsupported (so far) 450 killed, etc. (see below) That's from below and off the top of my head, and it seems to me more error than usual and I wonder if it means anything. Might deserve a section (almost re-named this like "errors and confusion"). I could see this being the result of a disinfo campaign to cloud things enough this could all seem made-up. I'm not pointing fingers, just hypothetically. I shield myself with the ignorance of not knowing the material yet. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:46, 11 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
:Consider also the similarity in time and crime with the Latakia incursions and you have reports like [http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2013/08/07/al-nusra-massacres-450-kurds-in-lattakia-syrian-army-kills-62-terrorsits/ Al-Nusra Massacres 450 Kurds in Lattakia] Islamic Invitation Turkey Aug. 7 --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:53, 12 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Someone has noticed that the "Assad Regime" used a fake photo: <br />
* [http://claysbeach.blogspot.fi/2013/08/breaking-news-assad-iran-you-lie-on.html BREAKING NEWS: Fake Photo Exposes Assad Regime Lie about Rebel Massacre in Tal Abyad] – Clay Claiborne, August 5, 2013<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 22:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Rebuttal conversation on twitter:<br />
<br />
* https://twitter.com/Net_News_Global/status/364511494311911426<br />
::''Kurds: Al Alam news of 450 Kurd civs slaughtered by jihadis is false. Truth is 70 Kurd civs killed, 400 kidnapped. http://en.alalam.ir/news/1502236'''<br />
<br />
Net News Global is a great news aggregator I daily use and the guy who runs it is no bullshitter. Wladimir van Wilgenburg writes for Rudaw and is not without flaws but well-connected (based in NL if i'm not mistaken). The latter tweeted already yesterday:<br />
<br />
* https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/364503264256995328<br />
<br />
Looks more and more like made-up by Al-Alam <br />
<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 23:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://claysbeach.blogspot.fi/2013/08/irans-presstv-promotes-fake-syrian.html Iran's PressTV Promotes Fake Syrian Rebel Massacre Video] – Clay Claiborne, August 8, 2013<br />
<br />
== Spin, comment, and analysis ==<br />
* [http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-nusra-mercenaries-in-syria-slaughter-kurdish-women-and-children/5345181 Al-Nusra Mercenaries in Syria Slaughter Kurdish Women and Children] – Kurt Nimmo, Infowars.com, 5 August 2013<br />
* [http://www.examiner.com/article/terrorists-affiliated-with-al-nusra-front-slaughters-120-children-syria Terrorists affiliated with al-Nusra Front slaughters 120 children in Syria] – JOSEPH OWENS, AUGUST 6, 2013<br />
* [http://www.syrianews.cc/terrorists-syria-massacre-kurds-120-children/ Terrorists in Syria massacred 450 Kurds, including 120 children] – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Klostermayr M. Klostermayr] / Syrianews.cc, August 5, 2013<br />
* [http://www.syrianews.cc/syria-terrorists-burn-syrian-kurds/ Terrorists in Syria set Kurds on fire – next horrible event after recent massacre] – M. Klostermayr / Syrianews.cc, August 6, 2013<br />
* [http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/216667.php Reports of al-Nusra's Massacre of Kurds in Syria?] – The Jawa Report, August 07, 2013<br />
* [http://rudaw.net/english/opinion/09082013 Al-Qaeda: A Force for “Good”] – Kani Xulam - Rudaw, 9.8.2013 ([http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2013/8/syriakurd841.htm mirror])<br />
*: ''Kani Xulam is a political activist based in Washington D.C. He is the founder of the American Kurdish Information Network (AKIN) [http://www.kurdistan.org www.kurdistan.org.]''<br />
<br />
==Context Discussion==<br />
In the direction of making sense of and organizing this page and the various subjects revolving around it, I have a few thoughts. But they're not well-formed. I'm overwhelmed by this story, the details, the possible scale, the other such stories breaking all at once, the unusual level of confusion, etc. Possible issue pages that could come out of this: Kurdistan Massacres (??), The Taking of Tal-Abyad, August 2013 massacres in the north (there will be more, perhaps quieter as phone lines go dead, etc.). The last suggests a bigger picture yet I find fascinating. All this last week or so has been an amazing string of reports of major rebel victories across the north and morale boosts. It seems they were able to easily take over a whole new border crossing when the kurds closed the other, and effect some swift and undeniably massive punishment on those kurds. They took Khan al-Assal recently, killed Shia. Mengh airport, longtime target. Now the airport airport too? This is threatening to become irreversible if very true. Taking Tal-Aran etc. down by the airport. And to the west, they punched into Latakia's towns like never before, if briefly. Every step, showing new capabilities and giving a morale boost. Lots of celebration showing what they do when boosted. Massacres on every front, mass abductions, unclear details, touchy stuff, negotiations... So in the end, what could we assemble about this whole time of expansion so many powerful people have worked towards, and its effect on the human rights scene in Syria? No rush on that, it's all still evolving, but something will come together. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:06, 10 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Location ==<br />
<br />
It's a town of 13-14 thousand citizens (says wikipedia with not much more information, the German article has [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Tel_Abyad_Armenian_church.JPG a picture of a Christian church]), and it's directly at the border to Turkey, comparable to the situation in Ras Al-Ayn (I have a tab-group with a bunch of articles open in the browser since at least a week and have yet to write the latest chapter of THAT drama). [http://wikimapia.org/2834942/Tall-Abyad Here] on wikimapia, [http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=36.69196,38.951511&spn=0.057675,0.054588e&t=m&z=14 here] on Google Maps. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 20:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC) <br />
<br />
It's the site of the autumn 2012 shelling incident that (among others?) led to the Patriot missiles inside Turkey. [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2212471/Turkey-launches-artillery-attacks-Syrian-targets-retaliation-civilians-killed-mortar-strike.html Here] is a long Daily Fail article with a bunch of photos of the Akcakale border crossing and a damaged customs office building in Tal Abayd. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 20:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Older stuff ==<br />
* [http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130721/jihadists-holding-kurdish-civilians-north-syria Jihadists holding Kurdish civilians in north Syria] – Agence France-Presse via GlobalPost, July 21, 2013<br />
:''Islamic extremists battling Kurdish fighters in the north Syrian town of Tal Abyad are holding "hundreds" of civilians as prisoners, a watchdog said on Sunday.''<br />
:''They were rounded up after jihadist commander Abu Musab was imprisoned by Kurdish fighters late on Saturday. The commander was freed on Sunday, various sources said.''<br />
:''"Hundreds of civilian relatives of Kurdish fighters were taken prisoner by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS)," said the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.''<br />
<br />
* [http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/2013/07/syria-kurds-pyd-ypg-north-clashes-border-crossing.html Syrian Kurdish Forces Surround Border Crossing] – Milliyet (Turkey), via al-Monitor, July 23, 2013<br />
:''After the PYD took control of border areas, the border crossings at Nusaybin, Ceylanpinar and Akcakale — which link Syria's Kurdish region to Turkey — were closed. The closure caused shortages of food and other essential items, forcing the Syrian Kurds to meet their needs through the Arabiyya crossing, which opens to the Kurdish region of northern Iraq. But this crossing was off limits to Syrian Kurds because of the problems between the PYD and Syrian Kurdish groups loyal to Massoud Barzani, the Kurdistan Regional Government president. The crossing was being occasionally opened for essential supplies. The PYD has now decided to expand its operations to the north, to capture the Arabiyya crossing that leads to Mosul.''<br />
<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOUTlo8wSoU pyd ypg vurdukça el nura kaçıyor 1] (PYD YPG vurdukça al-Nusra flee) ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKcp-yJKE9s part 2]) – Published on July 28, 2013 by moryakup<br />
:A third video by the same name seems unrelated, published [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8molyTXszd0 August 5.] Turkish journalist interviews YPG, who are now in full control.<br />
<br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBRIalywmnI Kurds demonstrate against Islamists in Syria | London 2013] – Zara Hurriye, July 28, 2013<br />
:''Dozens of Syrian-Kurds gathered in front of Downing Street in London on 28th July 2013, to protest against violence waged by Islam-fanatics belonging to Jabhat al-Nusra on Kurdish towns. The Kurdish group YPG and PYD have protected villages, towns and cities from such Islamists. This comes shortly after PYD liberated Sere Kanye (Ras el Ain) from al-Nusra.''<br />
<br />
* [https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/362111460882649088 Mark @markito0171] 10:24 AM - 30 Jul 13<br />
: ''#Syria #Raqqa 16 PYD members killed in in Tal-Abiad http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=36.686385&lon=38.942327&z=14&m=b''<br />
<br />
== Patriot missile? ==<br />
<br />
UNCONFIRMED: Patriot missile intercepted a missile west of Tal Abiad on Syria-Turkey border<br />
* http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2312817/pg1<br />
link to twitter.com<br />
* https://twitter.com/RamiAlLolah<br />
<br />
:Picked up from someone else yet, extremely tenuous so far. [https://twitter.com/RamiAlLolah/status/364388674340782083 See conversation]. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
Could be somehow [https://twitter.com/Paradoxy13/status/364261954749083649 related] to this: -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 23:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
* [http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/04/syria-ballistic-missiles-killing-civilians-many-children Syria: Ballistic Missiles Killing Civilians, Many Children] – HRW, August 5, 2013<br />
<br />
== Meanwhile in Turkey... ==<br />
<br />
* [http://nsnbc.me/2013/08/05/breaking-turkish-p-m-erdogan-deploys-military-against-protesters/ BREAKING: Turkish P.M.Erdogan Deploys Military Against Protesters (Updated)]<br />
:''Fears about violent and bloody clashes in Turkey today, 5 August have increased after Prime Minister R. Tayyip Erdogan and the governor of Istanbul have deployed 6 brigades of military personnel and heavily armed riot police to the protect the prison and court in the city of Silivri.''<br />
:''Large amounts of riot police, armed with firearms and so-called rubber-coated ammunition, which is lethal at close range, have been deployed at key positions. The deployment came tonight and during the early morning hours, as Turkey´s opposition has vowed to defy Prime Minister Erdogan´s crackdown, arrests and threats of violence.''<br />
-- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 00:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rebel attack in Latakia ==<br />
:''Moved to [[Talk:Latakia Massacres]]''<br />
<br />
== Turkish responsibility ==<br />
The Turkish-Syrian border is constructed like the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border Inner German border,] there is a mine field half-a-mile wide on the Turkish side. The explicit purpose of this barrier to prevent (Kurdish) insurgents and weapons from moving across the border. It is thus impossible for anything to enter Syria from Turkey without the explicit approval and support of the Erdogan government. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 07:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [http://ar.firatnews.com/news/akhr-l-khbr/l-jtw-rfdn-mby-thm-l-dm-trfhm-bljysh-lhr.htm PYD call to the international community] – ANF - London, 08.08.2013<br />
:''The PYD also adds that "These armed terrorist groups which are a major threat to the regional and global stability and peace, have been militarily facilitated by Turkey and supplied by the Gulf States. The recent intervention of six military tanks and hundreds of jihadists from Turkey into Tel-Abeyd, Syria, shows the Turkish involvement in the on-going Syrian sectarian war which neither serves the interests of Syrians nor Turkey and its allies".''<br />
<br />
* [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/al-qaeda-expands-in-syria-via-islamic-state/2013/08/12/3ef71a26-036a-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html Al-Qaeda expands in Syria via Islamic State] – Liz Sly / Washington Post, August 13, 2013<br />
:''But with its radical ideology and tactics such as kidnappings and beheadings, [the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant] has stamped its identity on the communities in which it is present, including, crucially, areas surrounding the main border crossings with Turkey.''<br />
::Talk page, talking. Thanks for bringing some new things to this page. Interesting article, for a mainstream one. Man, I didn't get much done here today. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Quote highlight:<br />
:''And unlike in Iraq during the insurgency, Islamic State fighters don’t have to contend with U.S. forces hunting them down, said Brian Fishman, a former director of research at West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center who is now with the New America Foundation. “They can plan better and discipline better, and that is dangerous.” he said.''<br />
::Curious and massive omission in that paragraph - isn't someone trying to hunt them down, but having everybody trip them up and encourage and allow accelerated swamping, and would have been bombing them by now if that was possible? Vague and troubling implications of its logic - with only a blank spot against al-Qaeda at the moment, only one the US and the axis of willingness re-occupies the Iraq-and al-Sham area can the danger be put in proper check again. Right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Demolition of houses ==<br />
<br />
The footage shown by RT shows al Nusra or ISIS blowing up Kurdish houses with huge barrels of explosives placed in the middle of the living room. I will collect some other footage here.<br />
<br />
Syriavideo.net has [http://syriavideo.net/city/41/Tal-Abyad/ a collection of videos] from Tal Abyad - Ar-Raqqah. The latest ones are from August 1.<br />
<br />
* [http://syriavideo.net/video/90703/ Raqqa: The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant blew up and destroyed the homes of Kurds in Tal abyad and surroundings] – Aug 1, 2013, [http://www.youtube.com/user/zanamiso/videos Tal Abyad News Network]<br />
* [http://syriavideo.net/video/89453/ Demolition of houses of Kurds in Tal Abyad by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria 21.07.2013] – July 22, 2013, Tal Abyad News Network<br />
<br />
There are also some fresh videos from Tal Abyad filed [http://syriavideo.net/city/40/Ar-Raqqah/ under Raqqa.] Here an al-Nusra commander seems to be bragging to a reporter about how he blew up<br />
a Kurdish house.<br />
* [http://syriavideo.net/video/91965/ Raqqa: Meeting with modern field commander in Tal Abyad for victories on the PKK] – August 9, 2013, [http://www.youtube.com/user/mcrraqqa/videos Ar-Raqqah Media Center]<br />
<br />
==Other Abuses==<br />
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/403136473128030 reported on its Facebook page, August 6]: <br />
:''Aleppo province: A rebel battalion detained 2 Kurdish civilians from the town of Tel'eran, east Reef Aleppo, this Friday while the civilians were fleeing from the rebel and ISIS attack on their village and the village of Tel Hasel. The 2 civilians were held captive in the cable factory, east of the Tel Hasel, and were tortured badly while there. The victims were able to escape and have reached the village of Belat, by al-Sfeira city.''</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aqrab_Massacre&diff=5972Aqrab Massacre2013-08-14T20:38:05Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Red Crescent, Silent */</p>
<hr />
<div>This alleged mass-killing occurred on December 11, 2012 in Aqrab, Hama province, Syria - about two miles north of Al-Houla, site of [[the Houla massacre]]. In the first anti-government activist reports, 125-150 civilians - men women and children, primarily or totally of the Alawite religious minority shared by President Assad - had been blown up. It was done by government forces and "[[Shabiha]]" (Alawite militia), who had been holding some 200+ Aqrab Alawites captive. That initial story has been seriously challenged and appears completely untrue, and the puzzle of what then did happened has been left unsolved. As many as 233 "enemies of God" (as rebels often call Alawites) seemingly disappeared, and the only people who really know what happened to them are the ones telling false stories about it . <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab witness conflict.png|right|400px]]Absent any proof of what happened, we are left with two sets of witnesses with irreconcilably different stories, visualized here. Left: a teenage Alawite survivor in rebel care blames his Shabiha captors ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3St4ux50PY video link]) Right: an alleged escapee, Madlyan Hosin, tells UK Channel 4 News how it was instead '''''the rebels''' that had held her and hundreds of other Alawites hostage.'' <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciua_3Rin4I video])</ref><br />
<br />
Note: The following page is a bit too dense with info, and it doesn't even have all our findings worked in yet. Over time, it will be expanded somewhat as well as streamlined for readability. Those hungry for more information yet can see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre|the discussion page]], those hungry for less can just skim the page below. Also there is a decent summary of the case, Channel 4's important video dispatch, and a record of agitation to increase its profile, [http://ciwclibya.org/syria/aqrabmassacre.html publicized at the Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya (and Syria) website]. <br />
<br />
== Location ==<br />
[[File:Aqrab map 2.png|right|240px]]Aqrab, Google-translating either "Scorpion" or "Sundial," is/was a mixed Sunni and Alawite city of about 11,000 inhabitants. It is located ([http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Aqrab,+Syria&hl=en&ll=34.937734,36.458817&spn=0.136221,0.296288&sll=34.937778,36.458611&sspn=0.017028,0.037036&t=h&hnear=Aqrab,+Masyaf,+Hama+Governorate,+Syria&z=12 here] on Google Maps) in Hama province, even though rebel-controlled Al-Houla, only two miles to the south, is in Homs province. As shown on the map here, the line between provinces seems to run just north of the three towns of Houla (with the massacre there happening in the southernmost [[Taldou]]). <br />
<br />
The incident is said to have occurred in Aqrab, an Alawite village. But it's more a mid-sized town, with some reports giving it a majority Sunni population. For example, after Channel 4's Alex Thomson traveled to the town (as he earlier traveled to Taldou), he described "a low-rise, densely packed town of 9,000 Sunni and 2,000 Alawites," with the report specifying the stricken Alawite district was in the west of town. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> 11,000 seems reasonable population for a city that size on the map (Taldou's population was once similar). <br />
<br />
An Arabic news report from the area spoke to locals and heard how after escaping they fled to nearby " التاعونة " ("al-Ta'ounah"). <ref name="AKT">[http://www.alkhabar-ts.com/index.php?page=view_news&id=0f575cff9f35053fd5b9194ce0d51c8fe714f29cd5ef825a51f66b2704ffd80f#ixzz2EtQlotd7 عقرب .. الناجون من الموت يروون لتلفزيون الخبر حكاية موتهم] Al-Khabar Tele Site, December 13, 2012</ref> A town of that name has a pin on Google Maps, right [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=التاعونة,+Syria&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=34.934145,36.432381&spn=0.034057,0.074072&t=h&hnear=التاعونة،+Masyaf,+Hama+Governorate,+Syria&z=14&iwloc=A here]. As the report says, it's about one kilometer away, nearest to the western (Alawite) district of Aqrab. Alex Thomson reported for Channel 4 from there, pronouncing it Towna; its eastern fringe was as close as he could get to Aqrab. <ref name="AT2" /> Lebanese Al-Mayadeen also had a crew meeting escapees there, with the town unnamed but matches with common sense and some of the people Channel 4 filmed. <ref name="MV" /> <br />
<br />
=== Akrad Ibrahim ===<br />
However, some sources suggest the events, in whole or in part, may have transpired in a smaller, presumably Alawite village a few kilometers north. One way or another, it's worth placing on the map above. Cuban news agency Prensa Latina, for example, reported that the events occurred "''near'' the Syrian town of Akrab," in a place called Akrab Ibrahim. <ref name="PL">[http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=799801&Itemid=1 Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town], Prensa Latina, published Dec 12, 2012</ref> Akrad Ibrahim (أكراد ابراهي) is a small village around five kilometers north of Aqrab up the mountains ([http://wikimapia.org/20968348/en/Akrad-Ibrahim location on wikimapia]). It has one dominant building which looks very much like the typical schools every village in the region has. "Akrad" means "Kurdish" when auto-translated into English. There are some other clues and related developments and rumors, a Kurdish link, and a dead sheikh, that tie this village into events in other ways that are discussed below. <br />
<br />
Based on eyewitness testimonies, Presna Latina reported "there are also 19 Sunni Kurdish civilians among the victims." <ref name="PL">[http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=799801&Itemid=1 Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town], Prensa Latina, published Dec 12, 2012</ref> This place is mentioned in some other reports but mostly described as neighborhood in Aqrab, not as a separate village. Searching for the Arabic name led to announcements on facebook (Dec 9) and a Qatari forum (Dec 10) talking about gangs looting and abducting people in this village which is described as majority Sunni with a Kurdish minority (hence the name), while the villages further up the mountains are described as Alawite.<ref name="AIP">Announcements in Arabic on [https://www.facebook.com/Hama.Coordinators.Union/posts/562481687111724 facebook] and webforum [http://www.qatarshares.com/vb/showpost.php?p=8606067&postcount=12421 Qatarshares], Dec 9/10, 2012</ref> <br />
<br />
Given the many possible narratives and the problematic auto-translation from Arabic, it is hard to make sense of the events they describe, but both talk about a large family named Najjar who either was abducted or did the abducting, either by Alawites or are Alawites themselves. The announcements call on the readers to inform news media and come to help to prevent a massacre that is somehow expected. A Sheikh Ali in Aqrab is said to be able to confirm events. (As we'll see [[Aqrab Massacre#The Ill-Fated Delegation|below]], Sheikh Ali is dead). <br />
<br />
Regardless of the details described here, there was definitely something building up in this village and it seems like the confusion about this topic stems from the fact that two events are merged into one - possible fighting and shelling and hostage negotiations in Aqrab down in the valley and a massacre or tragic event of sorts happening in the school building in Akrad Ibrahim a couple of kilometers away and up the hills.<br />
<br />
== First Reports: A Missile Massacre ==<br />
=== Initial Opposition Reports ===<br />
The Syrian opposition Local Coordination Committees gave their tally of the dead for December 11 - 165 dead nationwide, but "the number of martyrs is able to increase as the number of martyrs in Aqrab Massacre is still unknown yet" <ref name="LC11">[http://www.lccsyria.org/10636 Syria Today 11-12-2012]. Local Coordination Committees, Posted by abeer on December 11th, 2012</ref> This "Aqrab massacre" is not explained. No 125-150 number is included in the list. Their [http://www.lccsyria.org/10644 summary of the following day] didn't help, making no mention of Aqrab. There is no LCC accounting yet, and this is leading some to suspect there really was no regime massacre, that perhaps the rebels were just making up wild (and sort of self-incriminating) stories. For example, the analysts at the site Enduring America pointed to "notable omissions," specifying the government's apparent denial and that "the opposition Local Coordination Committees, a prominent source for claims on casualties, never reported a mass killing from Aqrab." <ref name="EA1">[http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/13/syria-analysis-was-there-a-massacre-in-aqrab-on-tuesday.html Syria Analysis: Was There a "Massacre" in Aqrab on Tuesday?] Enduring America, December 13, 2012</ref> <br />
<br />
The [[Syrian Observatory for Human Rights]] had better coverage this time, but confusing - they heard different versions, at least some of which had to be incorrect:<br />
:''different stories have emerged as to what caused the death and injury of 125-150 civilians, almost all from an Alawite background, in the town of Aqrab as a result of a series of explosions and gunfire. The town is in the southern neighbourhood of Hama and it is near the town of Houla, which witnessed a massacre on the 25th of May''<br />
<br />
:''The first narrative claims that there were 10 pro-regime gunmen who were barricaded in residential buildings with 150 civilians (Alawites also). A delegation was sent to the buildings, made up of 2 Sheikhs and 1 retired officer from the town, in order to negotiate the moving of Alawite civilians out of the building. the delegation was not allowed to leave. Clashes then took place between the pro-regime gunmen and rebel fighters from the neighbouring Houla town, explosions then took place which led to the civilian casualties. 2 rebels were also reported to have killed, also reports that the 3 person delegation was killed, and the head of the pro-regime militia.''<br />
<br />
:''The second narrative is that a series of explosions went off by the buildings inhabited by Syrian Alawites civilians in the town.''<br />
<br />
:''The third narrative is that pro-regime militiamen held Alawite civilians captive in the buildings, and that the rebels attempted to free the civilians, causing several explosions which led to the death of the 125-150 civilians.''<br />
<br />
:''The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights urges the UN to form an independent investigation committee, which include to examine what occurred in the town of Aqrab in order to bring all those responsible for this crime to justice'' <ref name="SOAM">[http://syriahr.com/en/index.php?option=com_news&nid=477&Itemid=2&task=displaynews#.UMhtukYSys0 Conflicting stories regarding the nature of the civilian massacre in Aqrab] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, December 11, 2012</ref><br />
This assemblage is strange, confusing and not entirely flattering to the rebel side. It was, however, widely cited in subsequent media reports, and frequently taken as reason to wonder a bit more than usual just what happened.<br />
<br />
=== Reuters and the Rest ===<br />
Relying mostly on these reports, the confused one and the silent one, many media outlets tried to make immediate sense of the events in reports mostly of December 11 and 12. Reuters managed to file a report on the issue the evening on the 11th, reporting "up to 200 members of President Bashar al-Assad's Alawite minority were injured or killed in an attack on their central Syrian village on Tuesday, activists said." The report, by Erika Solomon and Mariam Karouny, passed on greater than usual skepticism for a mainstream news outlet. They cited a boy survivor who, on rebel video, "gave a similar account" to a rebel fighter they spoke with -a story blaming Shabiha and absolving rebels. But the report did mention the possibility people were hiding in fear of rebel attacks and, more importantly, they noted "'''It was not clear whether the boy was speaking freely'''." <ref name="RE1">[Reuters: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8AJ1FK20121211 Syrian Alawite village attacked, rebels fight around capital]By Erika Solomon and Mariam Karouny, Reuters, December 11, 2012, 5:06pm EST</ref><br />
<br />
A variant report heard the following non-confidence-instilling explanation:<br />
:''A rebel who spoke to Reuters by telephone said fighters had clashed with the army in Aqrab for four days. Rebels had surrounded one building and accused the Shabbiha of using residents hiding there as human shields. “There were 200 people inside and we called on the residents to leave, but the Shabbiha held some women and children by gunpoint. Eventually talks fell apart and the government shelled the building,” said the rebel, who called himself Maysar.''<ref name="RE2">[http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/syria-crisis-alawites-idINDEE8BA0EC20121211 Up to 200 hurt in attack on Syrian Alawite village - activists]Reuters via Daily Star (Lebanon), Dec. 12, 2012, 3:28 AM</ref><br />
<br />
The Telegraph, in contrast, focused on the SOHR's different versions and latched onto the multiple explosions one:<br />
:''125 civilians had been killed or hurt by a string of bomb attacks. Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman later clarified that an unknown number of the victims were in fact fighters. "Between 125 and 150 people were killed or hurt by gunshots and explosions in the village of Aqrab," Mr Abdel Rahman told AFP.'' <ref name="TE1">[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9738688/Syria-explosions-kill-scores-in-Alawite-villages.html Syria: explosions kill scores in Alawite villages] The Telegraph, December 11, 2012 11:41PM GMT</ref><br />
<br />
The BBC and most others would go with what the survivors said on rebel videos. The BBC's first report mentioned the confused SOHR versions, but also cited the same Alawite boy and rebel fighters, and gave a range of death tolls topping out at "as many as 300." <ref name="BC1" /> This report is covered in more detail below.<br />
<br />
=== Two Flawed British Reports: BBC vs. Channel 4 ===<br />
The majority of journalists covering this - and other Syrian incidents - claim that activist reports cannot be confirmed or denied by on-site investigation. For example, consider the BBC's first and fairly detailed report of December 12. It said "it is impossible to verify this complex narrative," and noted "there has been no word at all so far from the government, which is accused of killing its own supporters in order to blame the rebels." <ref name="BC1">[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20691206 'Alawite civilians killed' in Syria village] BBC News. 12 December 2012 Last updated at 03:22 ET</ref> The "complex narrative" the report passed on, from rebel and activist sources, seems patched together and rather confusing. <br />
:''Activists said the [Shabiha] militia-controlled building was being besieged by the rebel Free Syrian Army (FSA). The Shabiha, who are almost entirely Alawite, were using the civilians as human shields, according to the activists. They said village elders were sent to negotiate a release of the hostages and surrender of the militiamen. But the elders were seized and killed, the militia threw grenades at hostages who were trying to run away, and then blew the building up as '''they themselves escaped''', the activists claimed.''<br />
:[...]<br />
:''The activists' account even said that government forces later fired rockets at '''and''' bombed the building with aircraft, killing '''more than 200 women and children''' trapped there, our correspondent adds.'' <br />
<br />
So the rebels besieged and surrounded the building, until they learned of a huge number of human shields held there. Negotiators, with unstated terms, were killed by the Shabiha, who then killed their captives with grenades and/or blew up the building somehow, trapping nearly everyone inside/beneath rubble, and then slipped away through the rebel cordon never to be seen again. The building explosion wasn't enough to kill their now-unneeded human shields, so the government itself finished the job with both artillery and air strikes. They did this to frame the rebels, who were there the whole time but apparently never fired a shot and remained stunned on the sidelines as these events cascaded around them. <br />
<br />
As far as we know, no one on the opposition side managed to video-record a single one of these events. <br />
<br />
In contrast to the BBC's remotely assembled jumble of a story, consider Channel 4's chief correspondent Alex Thomson, who actually went to Aqrab and spoke to locals that were not steered to him by opposition activists. Thomson posted a sneak preview of the report on his blog on the 13th, explaining what he was hearing; the massacre occurred after a sequence of events starting when "rebels reportedly visited from the al-Houla area a few days ago. According to Aqrab villagers they kidnapped the son of the local Alawite religious leader." From there it escalated:<br />
:''The Aqrabi villagers say they mounted a counter-attack to try and free the hostage. There were armed clashes and injuries.''<br />
<br />
:''The villagers say the rebels then came back from al-Houla and took over the place. Most people fled but '''around 260''' were corralled into one section of the village and it is there that they were '''hit by missiles fired by rebels.''''' <ref name="AT1">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/badlands-syrias-vicious-civil-war/3408 The badlands of Syria’s vicious civil war]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 12, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
The contrast with the vast majority of Western reports could hardly be more stark, and Thomson had the edge in that he actually went there. However, it would appear this narrative was also not correct, and was contradicted by the following day's report citing three named and shown alleged escapees. They still blame hostile rebel fighters from Al-Houla for kidnapping hundreds of Alawites, and for anything awful that did happen. However, blowing up any number of people, with missiles or otherwise, was not part of it, as far as they knew. And further, the building they described being held in was still totally intact when Channel 4's crew filmed it. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> (see "It Didn't Happen?" immediately below.)<br />
<br />
== The Real Story ==<br />
=== It Didn't Happen? ===<br />
From the start, there were signs that pointed to no such massacre occurring. These started less-than-compelling to Western minds; there was first no official statement from the Syrian government, and then an apparent denial from military sources in the region. The statement ran by SANA was strangely terse and unelaborated; in its entirety, it said: "A military source in the Central Region on Wednesday denied news claiming that a massacre took place in Aqrab in Hama countryside." <ref name="SANA1">[http://www.sana-syria.com/eng/21/2012/12/12/456830.htm SANA report]Dec.12, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
One Alawite resident of the area told Reuters the problems began with the rebel assault of December 2, but it didn't end how rebels said. "We don't believe there was a massacre but we think there are a number of hostages being held. Clashes began when rebels started shelling the shabbiha checkpoint," he said by Skype. "But now the phone lines seem to be down in Aqrab so that's all we know." <ref name="RE1" /><br />
<br />
As widely noted, there have been '''no videos''' posted of 125-150 massacre victims - or any number - to confirm the stories. That in itself would make the case highly unusual for a Syrian massacre, but then this was already an unusual case. There are no previous alleged massacres of so many Alawites in one place surrounded by rebel fighters to compare this to. No bodies to show is the most straightforward - but not only - reason no bodies would be shown. Fear that the propaganda coupof more dead baby images would backfire against the opposition this time is another possible reason.<br />
<br />
The lack of video and official denial were cited by the analysts at Enduring America, along with "notable omissions" like how the Local Coordination Committees "never reported a mass killing from Aqrab." (at least not officially - someone from the LCC reportedly did partially confirm it, as EA noted [http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/11/syria-live-coverage-so-are-al-qaeda-terrorists-winning-the-c.html#2032 here]) Between the three, the collective doubt led to a possibility worth "pursuing" in which "the town was bombed, and the largely-Alawite population has split into pro- and anti-regime groups. There has been fighting. Perhaps 6 to 10 people were killed by the shelling. There are further concerns that other residents, held hostage or cut off from escape, were slain." <ref name="EA1"/> That's doesn't cover everything even if stretched taut. But it's an admirable effort, considering the vast gulf between the two (main) narratives and the unknown number of unknowns between them. That was acknowledged with a later post after learning of Channel 4's version (see immediately below). <br />
<br />
:''As of now, it's not possible to reconcile the two narratives. Both rely on eyewitness testimony. Nobody, it seems, has actually witnessed a "massacre," however, and there is no video of the bodies uploaded by either side. The reality is that all we know for sure is that there are two conflicting and unsubstantiated claims. We also know that there has been intense bombing of the village, at least since the FSA moved into the village on December 2-3rd.''<ref name="EA3">[http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/14/syria-live-coverage-protests-bombs-and-a-victory-that-cannot.html#1439 Syria Live Coverage: Protests, Bombs, and A Victory That "Cannot Be Ruled Out"]James Miller, Enduring America, Friday, December 14, 2012 at 6:00</ref> <br />
<br />
=== Channel 4's Report ===<br />
The first major and strongest case by far for a fabricated event came from Alex Thomson’s second dispatch, with a video report for Channel 4 News. On Wednesday Thomson himself and his team travelled from Hama to Aqrab where they interviewed a number of witnesses. This was "the first independently observed story of Aqrab from the first outside journalist to reach this area," with the three witnesses interviewed independently, and confirming each other on all the major details of what happened. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> He says they were supported as well by "dozens" of others he spoke to taking refuge in Al-Taonah, and who wanted to stay off-camera. <br />
<br />
According to the displaced persons, on Dec 2 around five cars full of bearded men with non-local accents came from the direction of Al-Houla. <br />
<br />
:''They all insist, as did everybody else we met, that the rebels from the Free Syrian Army (FSA) corralled around 500 Alawite civilians in a large red-coloured two-storey house belonging to a prominent businessman called Abu Ismail. They then say they were held – around 500 men, women and children – in this building until the early hours of Tuesday 11 December. Nine days. ''<br />
:[...] <br />
:''They all agree matters came to a head when a delegation of villagers was sent on Monday at 4pm to break the deadlock. [...] It appears negotiations ran between these elders and the rebels for around four hours, ending in deadlock at around eight o’clock on Monday night. At that point, shooting broke out, '''the rebels firing through the windows and shouting that they had booby-trapped the building.''''' <br />
<br />
:''The eye-witnesses say that the shooting died down at about midnight, after which a deal was done. In screaming night-time chaos and intermittent shooting, three vehicles took around 70 of the prisoners to safety in the nearest village [Al-Taonah] a mile away. However, it seems a fourth vehicle took a number of prisoners to al-Houla, where two – an unidentified woman and a boy – were treated for injuries in a rebel field hospital. The woman and boy blamed pro-government militia for taking the prisoners, according to rebel websites, and that is the version of events which has gone around the world. Until now.'' <br />
:[...] <br />
:''Curiously, rebel websites say the building containing the prisoners who remained, was completely destroyed by government artillery and air strikes on Tuesday. However, '''we saw and filmed the building''' in which eye-witnesses said they were imprisoned, '''and it appears intact''' – as does the rest of the village.'' (see below) <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
The thrice-bombed house, as filmed on the 13th, is shown and discussed below. Evidence of hundreds of dead was not found. Like others, Thomson pointed to the lack of video evidence on Youtube, which made little sense given the rebel narrative of a massive government crime that occurred, after all, in an area they controlled and could film at leisure. And further, he points out how the rebels never mentioned these hundreds of prisoners held by Shabiha during the nine-day standoff, even as they released videos and dispatches about their conquest and patrolling of the town, ignoring a "propaganda coup" for over a week until after its alleged culmination.<br />
<br />
=== The Hostage House and Smoke Clues ===<br />
[[File:Aqrab Hostage House enhanced.png|thumb|Witnesses say they were held hostage in this red house in Aqrab]]The house Thomson had pointed out as the site of the Alawites' imprisonment, inset at right, is not hard to spot. It's large and red, at least on the visible upper floor. By lining up the hill side of town and all three minarets, it seems the crew filmed from southwest of town, near [http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.932973,36.437909&spn=0.001082,0.002411&t=k&z=19 this building] on the outskirts of Altaonh. The house in question is likely the one [http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.937778,36.45512&spn=0.001082,0.002411&t=k&z=19 dead-centered here on Google maps]. (see [[Aqrab Massacre#Locations Map|below]] for visual explanation.) This is in northwest center of town, possibly in the western, Alawite district or in the Sunni area but near the "front line" (we don't know where the line was). <br />
<br />
Thomson heard from officials in Hama that that prisoners are still presumed to be held in the house, and negotiations were still ongoing. He also heard that the hostage house was owned by "a prominent businessman called Abu Ismail." <ref name="AT2" /> This could be a financier and enabler of the hostage-takers, a person of interest, or someone else, even an ally of the Alawites or one of them. Channel 4's first report said upon rebel attack "most people fled but around 260 were corralled into one section of the village." <ref name="AT1" /> Syria Politik in fact reported the targeted people had first herded themselves here: "gunmen attacked the homes of Alawites who were '''gathered in a specific area to facilitate their protection''' and for fear of being kidnapped, and gunmen surrounded the place," apparently forced them to concentrate further into just one building, "and asked the men to get out of the building..." <ref name="SPK">[http://www.syria-politic.com/ar/Default.aspx?subject=1200#.Ubz6LUZo098 سيريا بوليتيك ينشر القصة الكاملة لمجزرة عقرب..مقتل وخطف 500 علوي وسني] ("Syria Politik published the full story of the massacre of Aqrab - killing and kidnapping of 500 Alawi and Sunni) Syria Politik, December 15, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
<br />
While the building is clearly intact - despite the alleged warplane bombing, etc. - there might be smoke rolling out or up the vertical gap; soot stains from the lower window can be seen at right, as well as above the windows of the smaller attached/foreground building (likely the building at the nearest SW corner of the same block). No smoke seems to be escaping from the upper floor windows, which seem to be blacked-out and perhaps sealed airtight. This is important, as one of the witnesses said last she saw, '''"they’re burning tires inside the building to suffocate [the prisoners]."''' <ref name="MV" /> (see below for more on conditions in the Abu Ismail house). No other witnesses to our knowledge specify this abuse, but some other video clues support the significant involvement of smoke. One boy survivor documented in Al-Houla has soot-stained hands, <ref name="RV2">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7l3jyovsAw Title trans: 12/11/2012 Alawite sect children in Hula] Youtube video, Published by لحولة الابية on December 11, 2012</ref>, and an older woman has smoke-stained nostrils and hands. <ref name="RV7">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4DBBjRi7qY Title trans: Testimony of a woman survivor of the massacre of scorpion 12/11/2012]Youtube video, published by SyriaJusticeChannel on December 11, 2012</ref><br />
;Smoke-stained Aqrab victims/survivors on rebel video<br />
<center><gallery><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 1.png|older woman, stained nostrils <ref name="RV7" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 2.png|same, sooty hands<br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 3.png|Teenage boy survivor, badly smoke-stained hands, possibly burned as well.<ref name="RV2" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 4.png|Possibly the same boy (was shot a few times in the backs of his legs)<ref name="RV3">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdl6zFNd8I الحولة طفل صغير جدا من الطائفة العلوية11/12/2012]Youtube video, Dec. 11, 2012</ref><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 5.png|A different teenage boy survivor, nose and face stained (shot in the back, apparently)<ref name="RV2" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 6.png|That same boy<br />
File:Aqrab victim Amal.png|Possibly related: dead 6-year-old girl in Houla - soot-stained face, head sliced open (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#A Dead Child?|here]]). <br />
</gallery></center><br />
<br />
=== The Jubeili Family ===<br />
Forthcoming. One important aspect is the prevalence of one extended Alawi family, the Jubeilis (different spellings), who reportedly comprised the majority of those held - perhaps 300 total. At least two Jubeili men were also reportedly among the small group of Shabiha responsible for everything in initial rebel reports. Clearly the true story behind this alleged connection is worth pursuing. See some details at [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#The Jubeili Family Angle|talk page, The Jubeili Family Angle]]<br />
<br />
=== The Captives, In Detail ===<br />
More accurately, this section is for those who escaped their captivity and can speak about it. The alleged Alawite prisoners are still most famously seen as the Shabiha-blaming rebel-story-supporters in rebel-held Al-Houla. These few will be studied here in more detail in time. But besides those few, controlled glimpses, is a broader body of people supporting the opposite narrative. And then there are those, however many, who've been killed, and the rest, however many, that remain alive in captivity and great danger. The best information comes from the large number who made it out and can talk away from the rebels.<br />
<br />
==== Refugees on Their Ordeal ====<br />
A report from Lebanese Al-Mayadeen TV is of great interest here. It can be seen in the second part of this video, starting at 6:30. The English subtitles tell us Al-Mayadeen’s crew couldn’t enter the town itself due to the fighting, but visited neighboring villages where refugees reside. In a large building, they film at least three dozen people of all ages, getting along as they can. “Most of them fled Aqrab after the town’s siege.” <ref name="MV">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZGIuXLHIs Al-Mayadeen Report] Published on Dec 15, 2012</ref> These seem to be primarily those who Thomson’s first witness said ran away before the captive-taking, although some seem to have been held in the prison. <br />
<br />
An old man told Al-Mayadeen “the armed gangs attacked them, from Al-Houla and Aqrab. … They stole the peoples’ homes then torched them. … some of them left. As for the other ones, where they took them, we don’t know. … this is our problem. They have ALL sorts of weapons.” <ref name="MV" /> Elderly woman Hayat Youseh recalled for Channel 4 "they wore black ski masks. They took our phones and keys. They forced us out of our homes and set fire to them. I hope God burns them like they burned our homes." <ref name="AT2" /> Interestingly, this is almost an exact quote from a different, younger woman displaced during the nearby [[the Houla massacre|Houla Massacre]] (see video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7n0U5hvWQ here], 6 :14). <br />
<br />
One chubby boy airs no larger complaint to Al-Mayadeen than a lack of school and reading. But one woman mentioned the lack of food: “There are 25 babies and their mothers are under siege. Each baby is being fed a single olive each day.” Another, rather upset woman, painted a grim picture of the prison she apparently spent some time in: <br />
:''“we were collecting rainwater with a vessel to let our children drink, many of them still nursing, I swear. Nothing is reaching the town. There’s no food, nothing. '''They’re burning tires inside the building to suffocate them.''' '''There’s no water, no food. Perhaps 3/4 of the people there are already dead by now.'''”''<ref name="MV" /><br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab alkhabar 1.png|left|320px]]<br />
Syrian private TV Channel Al-Khabar Tele Site ran a detailed report, apparently video originally, that spoke to a large number of those escaped and released. An Arabic text transcript gave less-than-ideal results in Google translate (used below). <ref name="AKT" /> Some of the interviewees are shown in the stills they provided, one reproduced at left. The two women in the left and center can be seen together in Channel 4's video report at 3:35, meaning the two crews met the same group of refugees. That group also includes "a little girl crying in the dark corner," five years old, who "lost three brothers, her mother and father, and tasted the taste of 10 days of bitter custody." Escapee Um Ammar, an elderly woman of about 70 (she does not know), tears filling her eyes, mentions "my granddaughter's baby" and olive bread, then falls silent. <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
By the story Alkhabar heard, the attack started after dawn prayers (presumably on the 2nd) with announced threats against the Al Jubeili family, a loyalist clan of 300 members. "Gunmen dragged those three hundred to one house which they said had IEDs planted around it. The rebels may have slaughtered the Jubeilis’ livestock, and they gave them little food or water. There was an effort to separate some people, but families decided to "die together." A young man "tells how they hear sounds of clashes and shootings during the last four days from the days of their detention," and on "the tenth night," a rebel he felt was drunk fired in through the window, killing another youth and hitting a woman in the back. After this shooting, "Gunmen opened the door; to calm the chaos and the sounds of screaming and anger, they decided to release a number of detainees." They "began to bring the number of women and children," but everyone rushed the doors and, apparently, some managed to escape at that time. One woman described running with her children in the dark, legs bleeding, hunger driving them to "Altaonh," where they were interviewed. <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
==== Numbers: Captured, Released, Unaccounted For ====<br />
Both Channel 4 and Al-Mayadeen heard that those who didn’t escape Aqrab in time numbered around 500 Alawites, who were all taken hostage. The rebel captors entered negotiations with the authorities to exchange four of their arrested leaders for the civilians, on generous terms. "There was an agreement to release civilians in four batches ... One hundred civilians for each leader." The fourth leader would apparently set free the last 200. "'''Three hundred civilians have already been released'''," the report said, "but the unexpected happened when '''the remaining 200 disappeared'''.” <ref name="MV" /> After getting their three top choices freed, perhaps they decided #4 was expendable, kept his prisoners, and … we don’t know what they did with them. The initial reports said it was around 200 people, maybe 260 or 300, in the house when it was blown up by everyone but the rebels. The house remains, but there still has been no revised explanation. <br />
<br />
Al Khabar heard similar: <br />
:''"[there remain] about 200 martyrs missing and unaccounted for, after the fall of the shells on the house prison, after clashes between al-Faruq in control of the entire region and the army. It is not exactly known by the escapees what happened afterwards to their remaining family members, but they know very well that this is not the Syria in which they lived their lives safely ..."'' <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
Cuban news agency Prensa Latina heard in contrast that rebel "mercenaries" initially "kidnapped about 300 people," and when given an ultimatum by the SAA to release the prisoners and surrender, instead killed 233, including 88 children and women. <ref name="PL" /> It should be noted this would leave the clear majority of those killed - about 145 - men, which is partially consistent with the alleged rebel intent - to kill the men. <br />
<br />
Whether this variant report is based on a guess or on information the others lack remains unclear, but most sources are firmly agnostic, if not hopeful, on the fate of the remainder. Channel 4's Thomson, for one, said officials in Hama "believe hundreds are still held." <ref name="AT2" /><br />
<br />
==== Taken to Al-Houla ====<br />
Of those who were released, Thomson only heard about one batch of 70, driven out in four trucks. Three arrived in Altaonh, but "A fourth truck left, but never made it to the village. That truck went to rebel-heldal-Houla instead and there, an unnamed woman and boy, apparently speaking under duress, told rebels that pro-government militias, not rebels, took them prisoner." <ref name="AT2" /><br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Rescue baby.png|thumb|A young survivor of the alleged Aqrab Massacre]]We get so far several glimpses of the prisoners who remained in rebel hands, mostly in Al-Houla, being sewn-up or giving testimony. There is only one brief view known of "rescued" Alawites perhaps just arriving in Houla, not yet made to speak. This was posted by activist Jalal Suleiman of the [[Houla Media Office]] only on December 14, three days after their more useful videos went up, and just as Channel 4 was raising questions about the lack of rebel videos of the dead. This too failed to show any number of bodies, but rather, as translated, showed "Aqrab scenes shown for the first time during the rescue civilians." <ref name="JS1">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxAKls_RQ6w عقرب مشاهد تعرض لاول مرة اثناء انقاذ المدنيين] Youtube video, Published December 14, 2012 by جلال سليمان</ref> This shows two wounded victims: the toddler at right, a fighter showing off the torn-up sole of the child's right foot. An old woman in a dusty, torn-up black hijab is then seen. She's been badly injured in the head, left eye puffped up and bloody, left side of her shawl soaked in blood. Her face is a horrifying mask of human misery. She seems to protest something, but the armed men gently push her along the way to wherever she's being taken.<br />
<br />
Hassan Hassan described this scene for The National (UAE):<br />
:''In one video recorded almost immediately after the massacre, another old woman and a young girl are taken by rebels to a field hospital. Although the rebels keep reassuring them, the old woman continues to plead with a bearded man to rescue her. The woman then seems scared as rebels shout "Allahu Akbar", God is great.'' <ref name="HHN" /><br />
<br />
=== The Ill-Fated Delegation ===<br />
One aspect of the Aqrab saga that’s strangely consistent across all sources is a group of 6-9 local elites, including three Sunni clerics, the town’s mayor, and two retired military officers (for more details correlating reports and names, see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#The Delegation (in detail)|Talk: The Delegation]]). By reports, these tried to negotiate some solution to the impasse. At least some and perhaps all of them apparently died in the process. <br />
<br />
Exactly what happened and why is greatly contested and shrouded in mystery. The BBC heard from activists that "village elders were sent to negotiate a release of the hostages and surrender of the militiamen." <ref name="BC1" /> Hassan Hassan referred to "mediation from two Sunni religious leaders from Aqrab" that convinced the imprisoned Alawites they woulldn't be harmed, and some releases were agreed to. <ref name="HHN">[http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/story-of-a-massacre-tells-of-the-alawites-caught-in-the-middle Story of a massacre tells of the Alawites caught in the middle] Hassan Hassan, The National (UAE), Dec 17, 2012</ref> This agreement the “Shabiha” then allegedly rejected. Alex Thomson noted “(The witnesses) all agree matters came to a head when a delegation of villagers was sent on Monday at 4 pm to break the deadlock.” <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciua_3Rin4I video])</ref><br />
<br />
What they were urging exactly isn’t clear. Only a promise of no harm is mentioned on the rebel end, and no one mentions the delegates making any demands on the rebels. Presna Latina heard that among the dead were "representatives of Akrab town that acted as mediators in favour of those held in prison before the mercenaries.'' <ref name="PL" /> Otherwise, all seem to be local Sunnis who apparently met the rebels’ approval as mediators and were allowed in, perhaps sent to talk sense into the "Shabiha" to surrender and let their "prisoners" go. In the "chains of love" possibility (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Chains of Love?|talk page]] for now), they’d be urging the men to surrender to execution, and the women and children to unknown conditions in rebel captivity. Hassan for The National noted as one of the good signs we can find in Umm Ayham's story that the Sunni villagers hadn't attacked the Alawites earlier in the conflict, and even when they did, "the mediators," who tried to help free the people, "were also from the village,” and in fact were even Sunnis. <ref name="HHN" /> Whether they were really trying to help the desperate Alawites or to help grease along their destruction isn’t entirely clear. <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Sheikh Ali.png|thumb|left|Sheikh Ali, deceased]]The one visual confirmation we have of a death in the delegation is a video purporting to prove the “martyrdom of Sheikh Ali Omar” (as Google translated), via Houla activist hassan husein (his only video uploaded December 11 – the 10/11 date is apparently a typo). <ref name="SAV>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3rqDmyyvbA الحولة - عقرب 11-10-2012 استشهاد الشيخ علي العمر.] Youtube video, published December 11, 2012 by hassan699721</ref> The man shown (at left here) is middle-aged, in secular dress. He’s got blood coming from his nose and right ear, and a badly puffed-up black eye on the left. He was apparently beaten up, perhaps had his nose broken, and might have been shot somewhere in the head, or just beaten more.<br />
<br />
Rebels said the Shabiha killed the sheikh and perhaps the other members of the delegation. The BBC reported that "the elders were seized and killed," before "the militia threw grenades at hostages who were trying to run away, and then blew the building up as they themselves escaped, the activists claimed." <ref name="BC1" /> What might be the Tafas Coordination Committee reported on the 11th that Sunni clerics, including a Sheikh Ali, were sent to "negotiate with Shabiha the release of … ''175 women and girls''," but Shabiha leader Farzat Jubeili killed the clerics, apparently along with "154 girls and women of the Alawite sect." Further, Ismail (Jubeili) "detonated a bomb in the dignitaries." <ref name="TC">[https://www.facebook.com/TafasCoordination/posts/301479083302821 شبيحة عقرب يفجرون النساء والأطفال والجيش الحر يقوم بإنقاذ ما تبقى منهم "القصة كاملة"](The shabiha of Aqrab blows up the women and the children and the Free Army begins to rescue what remains of them "full story") تنسيقية طفس الحرة (Coordination of free Tafas) December 11, 2012 6:54 PM</ref><br />
<br />
Alex Thomson spoke with officials in Hama negotiating for the prisoners’ release. He reported back these officials “believe," but don't have confirmation, that "the imam, and the mayor, and many others, have been killed." <ref name="AT2" /> The refugees in Taonah didn’t mention them being killed, but do specify it was they who decided to take the negotiators prisoner. As Thomson reported “When they arrived, the prisoners would not let them leave. As Ali (Al-Hosin) puts it: “Once they came into the house, we just said, ‘We all go together, men women and children – or we all die together.’” On video, Ali is translated saying "either we all go out together, including the sheikh and the mayor, or we all die together." <ref name="AT2" /> But that's not quite the way it turned out.<br />
<br />
With no clear and credible explanation offered, there are a few main possibilities for how these men might have died, each with its pros and cons with regard to the known evidence:<br />
* As stated, they were killed by the Shabiha captors, before the same killed all their wards and committed suicide/vanished. <br />
* The delegation saw the desperate plight of the prisoners and voluntarily stayed in solidarity with them, and were later killed by rebels in revenge for the embarrassment <br />
* The prisoners who admit taking them also killed them and didn’t mention that part. <br />
The first option is just what rebels allege and is seriously unlikely, given the other evidence now available. The second option is the most emotionally appealing. The third is perhaps the best explanation. Considering the mass of starving Alawite prisoners already fiercely resisting the rebel final solution for them, and a few well-fed Sunnis wading in urging them to give in, it’s quite possible the latter could get themselves shot or beaten down, depending what was handy (the prisoners could, theoretically, have smuggled in a few guns, which would help explain the stand-off situation).<br />
<br />
== Locations Map ==<br />
From video evidence, we can identify these relevant place in Aqrab: <br />
[[File:Aqrab Locations Map.png|center|700px]]<br />
<br />
* To the south/southeast (off-frame): Al-Houla<br />
* Lower right, the location a mutilated man named Ahmed Daoud was filmed, ostensibly on Dec. 10, slumped in a chair on the approach from al-Houla (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Ahmed Daoud|here]]).<br />
* To the southwest (off-frame): Al-Taonah, refuge for freed captives.<br />
* To the west (off frame): Baarin, like al-Houla, a rebel town with sectarian tensions against Aqrab's Alawi, possible source of some attackers.<br />
* Western Alawite district: boundaries unknown: housed about 2-3,000 of a town of 10-13,000. Easily hit from Baarin.<br />
* "HQ" means the local security headquarters attacked Dec. 2/3, as seen in many videos (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Context: December 2nd battle|here]]). It was apparently the station of the local Popular Committees ("Shabiha") and after, a rebel-held check-point guarding the entrance from the regional capitol Hama (eg, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VscBLDfWKs0 Dec. 6 video.]) <br />
* "Red Crescent" parked is not certain, but the best identifiable match for the intersection the Syrian Arab Red Crescent team was seen on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKpSx8qYSRY a video dated Dec. 10]. See also below, [[Aqrab Massacre#Red Crescent, Silent|section below]].) They would likely have come from Hama and already passed the main checkpoint. Possible route to see the hostages suggested with a "?" <br />
* Abu Ismael's hostage house: unclear if it's part of the Alawite area, but likely so. Yellow road section is just to to help clarify its location (and to suggest a more direct route for the Red Crescent). Location pinned down by Channel 4 video (filmed from the edge of Taonah), derivative panorama, and Filed of View study below.<br />
[[File:Aqrab FoV Study.png|center|700px]]<br />
<br />
== World Reaction ==<br />
=== An Alawite Awakening? ===<br />
A site called Free Halab, (Free Aleppo) posted an entry on Dec. 12 blaming the government and Shabiha: <br />
:''Some if not many have feared that the revolution would unleash massacres, ethnic cleaning and even genocide upon the Alawite population of Syria. ... This horrific crime, however, was not committed by revolutionaries, extremist or otherwise. This is the story of some of those women and children who survived the massacre perpetrated against hundreds of them by the savage and psychotic Shabbiha of al-Assad, as told by the survivors themselves and by activists documenting their testimonies. All of them are Alawites.''<br />
Cited: the same videos mentioned in other reports, and a text account the same effect. The entry continued:<br />
:''According to the testimonies, the purpose of this massacre was to frame the FSA. Juan Cole who is in Damascus, however, mentions that he has been going to all the regime’s propaganda channels and found that there was “not a single peep about it.” Perhaps it was only for the Alawites to know about, to fear for their fate if al-Assad falls, whether at the hands of the FSA or the regime. Like these poor people from Aqrab, '''the Alawite community of Syria has been taken hostage.'''''<ref name="FH">[http://freehalab.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/assads-shabbiha-massacre-alawite-women-and-children-in-aqrab-hama/Assad’s Shabbiha Massacre Alawite Women and Children in Aqrab, Hama] Free Halab, Dec. 12, 210</ref><br />
<br />
There was a vague suggestion that the Alawites of Aqrab had been trying to work hand-in-hand with the FSA to break the government's grip. A video of December 4 purports to show [http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fsa-and-the-alawites-at-al-hola-http/ FSA and the Alawites at Aqrab village]. Cluster bombs are shown, as rebel fighters speak of their time in the village. It's all in Arabic, so we can't tell if these are supposed to be Alawite FSA, FSA working with Alawites, FSA threatening to kill Alawites, or what. <br />
<br />
The new massacre, it was hoped, would caused more yet to wake up and reject the government and its crimes more fully. The Tafas Coordination Committee announced on the evening of the 11th (Google-translated from Arabic) cites opposition leader in Turkey Khaled Khoja saying the crimes at Aqrab were "part of the massacres committed by the Assad regime against the Syrian people, and that the massacre confirms that the Assad regime does not represent the Alawite sect."<ref name="TC" /> This message was consistent from the front lines as well. One rebel fighter seen on video "reassuring" a badly injured Alawi boy, told the boy and the camera in Arabic “Bashar does not represent the Alawite sect. The Syrian people are one.”<ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
A few early Twitter messages sought to spread this idea from the outset. [https://twitter.com/TaziMorocco/status/278626685807644672 Tazi Morocco] tweeted "#Aqrab Massacre: 10 pro regime gunmen held 150 alawite hostages, and killed them when #FSA tried to save them #Syria." [http://ufn.virtues.fi/crisistracker/story.php?storyid=11736351 NM Syria tweet]: "The Alawites in Aqrab oppose the regime and its crimes. Regime forces bombed and shelled Aqrab this morning. #Syria" - First posted 2012-12-11 19:21:46 by NMSyria. Response: "Today is a clear warning to Alawites, the regime will also hurt them to get what it wants. Awful things happening in Aqrab #Syria" - First posted 2012-12-11 19:31:36 by Rose Alhoms. <br />
<br />
The New York Times, under the headline "Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings," said the massacre details "remain unclear," but they reported "a shocking episode of Alawite-on-Alawite violence" when "attacks by Alawite militias on their own civilian populations have so far been unheard-of." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/world/middleeast/alawite-massacre-in-syria.html?_r=0 Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings] By LIAM STACK and HANIA MOURTADA, New York Times, Published: December 12, 2012</ref> The exciting lessons to be drawn were there to exploit, and as the Times reported: <br />
:''Faiek al-Meer, a longtime antigovernment activist, wrote on Facebook that the Aqrab episode could be seen as a metaphor for the predicament facing the entire Alawite sect. Mr. Assad, he wrote, “will continue to fight to defend his seat and the interests of his clique even if has to use the Alawites as human shields to protect himself.”'' <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
The same day brought a more acute manifestation of the Alawite awakening narrative, from the leader of the National Coalition for Opposition Forces and the Syrian Revolution, Mouaz Alkhatib, speaking at the "Friends of Syria" conference in Marrakech, Morocco. On the day after the alleged massacre, just as it was hitting the world news circuit, he managed to exploit the event's most valuable property while apparently failing to mention or confirm it directly. As Reuters partially quoted him saying:<br />
:''"We send a direct message to the Alawite brethren. The Syria revolution is extending its hand to you, so extend your hand back and start civil disobedience against the regime because it repressed you like it repressed us."'' <ref name="DS1">[http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Dec-12/198218-syrian-opposition-leader-calls-on-alawites-to-rise-up.ashx#axzz2EfS24rQn Syrian opposition leader calls on Alawites to rise up]Daily Star (Lebanon) December 12, 2012 </ref><br />
Saudi paper Al-Sharq al-Awsat reported on Alkhatib's statements; a BBC Monitoring extract summarized: "Opposition calls on Alawites to resort to civil disobedience and considers 'Aqrab Massacre' a turning point" <ref name="SA1">[http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-312095632/syrian-opposition-urges-alawites.html Syrian opposition urges Alawites to change stand after Aqrab "massacre".]Al-Awsat, via BBC Monitoring, via accessmylibrary.com</ref><br />
<br />
As late as the 13th, Enduring America was following a theory of a massacre-free scenario that still involved some degree of Alawite uprising to explain the alleged, and exaggerated, intra-sect violence. In this attempt to make sense of it all, "the town was bombed, and the largely-Alawite population has split into pro- and anti-regime groups. There has been fighting,"a few deaths, and no massacre. <ref name="EA1"/> Then Channel 4's reports hit, and the calls went quiet; it didn't seem to be such an exciting "turning point" any longer.<br />
<br />
=== The News Spreads A Bit ===<br />
At least two Arabic-language video reports from the safe haven of Al-Taonah are known: Al-Khabar TeleSite (Syria)<ref name="AKT" /> and Al-Mayadeen (Lebanon) <ref name="MV" /> The details they heard and share are in line with Channel 4's report, and worked into the content above. Clearly, these reports have figured little into Western and opposition reports by which the world prefers to move. The following traces out the contours of how that world reacted to the ambiguity inserted by Channel 4's report as a lone anomaly with absolutely no further details available.<br />
<br />
Other Western media outlets were fairly slow to pick up Channel 4's important addition. The Los Angeles Times, for one, did include it in a Dec. 15 report as adding "mystery" to the case. <ref name="LA1">[http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-syrian-town-fate-20121215,0,6776757.story Mystery surrounds fate of Syrians held in town of Aqrab]Patrick J.McDonnel, The Los Angeles Times, Dec. 15, 2012</ref> The report by Patrick J. McDonnel cited the recent rebel destruction of a Shia mosque in the country's north, and said in part:<br />
:''Opposition videos circulated widely on the Internet suggest that pro-government militiamen known as shabiha were responsible for the killings in Aqrab. An unanswered question was why regime gunmen would kill Alawites presumably allied with the government.'' <br />
:''Britain’s Channel 4 News managed this week to reach the outskirts of Aqrab. Its version of events implicates the rebels.'' <br />
The details are then related in moderate detail.<br />
<br />
Over the following days, a few oft-cited rebel-supporting experts and artful media spinners spoke up, tacitly acknowledging that the initial rebel story in Aqrab was apparently a lie, and that at the very least the incident is troubling. But by and large, they have also managed to frame the mystery of the missing captives as all past-tense, somehow ambiguous in in its moral implications, and something too complex to ever be fully understood. (citations needed)<br />
<br />
=== Red Crescent, Silent ===<br />
Channel 4's report passed on that the Red Crescent, the Muslim version of the Red Cross, "gained access to the prisoners nine days into the standoff" and could clear up for good which side's forces held them by telling the world. "However, this is a dangerous place," he noted [[Mazraat al-Qubeir massacre#Investigators Obstructed and Shot At|with authority]], "and so far the Red Crescent have made no comment." <ref name="AT2" /> <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Red Crescent 1.png|thumb|left|Red Crescent crew in Aqrab, perhaps to see the Alawites]]Supporting this somewhat is the lack of such a statement, despite a low-quality 30-second video posted December 10, showing a team from the Red Crescent, purportedly in Aqrab. <ref name="RCV">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKpSx8qYSRY الحولة عقرب منظمة الهلال الأحمر تزور البلدة] Trans: al-Houla Aqrab Red Crescent Organization visits the town" Youtube video, published by Amr Faour, Dec. 10, 2012</ref> No mention is made of the purpose of their visit, but they're sitting in their parked ambulance, awaiting some clearance to move forward, ''something like'' nine days in (more like eight, at the most) to the quiet crisis. If they're speaking with the captors to arrange a visit, it must be remembered this is an opposition activist standing here filming them, and it seems to be their fighters standing at the windows. It's not certain which part of town this is filmed in, but a good guess is ventured [[Aqrab Massacre#Locations Map|on the map above]], looking like a second rebel checkpoint on their likely path. The team looks somber (see inset). It's not clear if this is before or after seeing conditions at the Abu Ismail house or if they ever got there; a transcription of what's audible would provide clues.<br />
<br />
=== Human Rights Watch Inaction ===<br />
LA Times passed on Nadim Houry, deputy director of the Middle East division of Human Rights Watch was quoted as saying the situation was "very murky," but somehow he was sure "a number of people" had been killed.<br />
:''"There are various narratives there, and we don’t have enough to have a conclusion yet," Houry said. "I’m not using the word massacre. It’s not clear to me how they died."''<ref name="LA1" /><br />
What's even less clear is if they (anything resembling the 125-150 first reported) died at all. The story saying how that happened seems to be untrue, and while no one can be sure the captives are still alive, no one else has any information on any significant numbers of dead. While the point of the LA Times article was to react to the new version from Channel 4, Mr. Houry explains he wasn't asked about that, only the previous "Alawite v. Alawite" version, which he called murky, before something and even now, after something. “when i was asked the question, narrative was Alawites killed Alawites. I said, details were murky. Which by they still are. … FYI Journo asked me about Alawite v. Alawite.” <ref name="NHT">[https://twitter.com/nadimhoury Twitter feed @Nadim Houry]Dec. 17 tweets:</ref><br />
<br />
As of February 11, two months after the alleged massacre, Human Rights Watch still has not issued any official statement whatsoever. Mr. Houry had assured the public early on that there was an investigation quietly proceeding: "still investigating. … ongoing investigation … Where did I say we concluded our investigation.” <ref name="NHT" /> This delay was the subject of a critical open letter to HRW, sent by wiki member Adam Larson (Caustic Logic) on Dec. 22. <ref name="CI1">[http://ciwclibya.org/lettersandpressreleases/onhrwsmurkyinvestigationofthecrimesataqrab.html On HRW's "murky" Investigation of the Crimes at Aqrab] Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya, Dec. 22, 2012</ref> At the moment, it seems likely their investigation will never have a conclusion. <br />
<br />
<br />
== The Video Record ==<br />
There are plenty of videos around of alleged survivors and witnesses to the events. These are covered below. Here, we look for cases where the camera itself was a witness and lets the rest of us be. <br />
<br />
=== Video of the Attacks of December 10/11 ===<br />
Videos of the negotiations, Shabiha captors, the fire fight, grenades lobbed at prisoners, blowing up the building, army shelling it, or warplanes bombing it, or any violence or anything happening around the building, apparently do not exist in the public sphere. Video proof of the events is apparently not the strong point of the rebel argument here. If any surface, they will be quickly noted here. According to the emerging narrative related by survivors and escapees, the final sequence of events rebels give as leading up to the bombing actually began on the afternoon of the 10th, running up to midnight, apparently culminating in the first hours of Dec. 11. Anyone looking through videos might keep that timeframe in mind and look for night or early morning shots. <br />
<br />
The closest glimpse we're allowed is Jalal Suleiman's "rescue" video published only as Channel 4's questions were first aired, three days after the other videos, as mentioned above. It seems to be filmed mid-morning, presumably on Dec. 11. <ref name="JS1" /><br />
<br />
=== Preceding Events ===<br />
As Thomson heard, the taking of hostages didn't occur on the day of the alleged massacre, but rather nine days earlier. Since the reported rebel take-over of the city is of such duration, anything from December 2 forward might be of value in understanding what happened during the curious blank spot in the record that is Dec. 10/11 prior to the interviews with survivors. <br />
<br />
A good list of some of these is compiled on [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Context: December 6th battle|the discussion page]].<br />
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<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
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[[Category:Massacres]]<br />
[[Category:Houla]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aqrab_Massacre&diff=5971Aqrab Massacre2013-08-14T20:35:51Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* The Ill-Fated Delegation */</p>
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<div>This alleged mass-killing occurred on December 11, 2012 in Aqrab, Hama province, Syria - about two miles north of Al-Houla, site of [[the Houla massacre]]. In the first anti-government activist reports, 125-150 civilians - men women and children, primarily or totally of the Alawite religious minority shared by President Assad - had been blown up. It was done by government forces and "[[Shabiha]]" (Alawite militia), who had been holding some 200+ Aqrab Alawites captive. That initial story has been seriously challenged and appears completely untrue, and the puzzle of what then did happened has been left unsolved. As many as 233 "enemies of God" (as rebels often call Alawites) seemingly disappeared, and the only people who really know what happened to them are the ones telling false stories about it . <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab witness conflict.png|right|400px]]Absent any proof of what happened, we are left with two sets of witnesses with irreconcilably different stories, visualized here. Left: a teenage Alawite survivor in rebel care blames his Shabiha captors ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3St4ux50PY video link]) Right: an alleged escapee, Madlyan Hosin, tells UK Channel 4 News how it was instead '''''the rebels''' that had held her and hundreds of other Alawites hostage.'' <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciua_3Rin4I video])</ref><br />
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Note: The following page is a bit too dense with info, and it doesn't even have all our findings worked in yet. Over time, it will be expanded somewhat as well as streamlined for readability. Those hungry for more information yet can see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre|the discussion page]], those hungry for less can just skim the page below. Also there is a decent summary of the case, Channel 4's important video dispatch, and a record of agitation to increase its profile, [http://ciwclibya.org/syria/aqrabmassacre.html publicized at the Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya (and Syria) website]. <br />
<br />
== Location ==<br />
[[File:Aqrab map 2.png|right|240px]]Aqrab, Google-translating either "Scorpion" or "Sundial," is/was a mixed Sunni and Alawite city of about 11,000 inhabitants. It is located ([http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Aqrab,+Syria&hl=en&ll=34.937734,36.458817&spn=0.136221,0.296288&sll=34.937778,36.458611&sspn=0.017028,0.037036&t=h&hnear=Aqrab,+Masyaf,+Hama+Governorate,+Syria&z=12 here] on Google Maps) in Hama province, even though rebel-controlled Al-Houla, only two miles to the south, is in Homs province. As shown on the map here, the line between provinces seems to run just north of the three towns of Houla (with the massacre there happening in the southernmost [[Taldou]]). <br />
<br />
The incident is said to have occurred in Aqrab, an Alawite village. But it's more a mid-sized town, with some reports giving it a majority Sunni population. For example, after Channel 4's Alex Thomson traveled to the town (as he earlier traveled to Taldou), he described "a low-rise, densely packed town of 9,000 Sunni and 2,000 Alawites," with the report specifying the stricken Alawite district was in the west of town. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> 11,000 seems reasonable population for a city that size on the map (Taldou's population was once similar). <br />
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An Arabic news report from the area spoke to locals and heard how after escaping they fled to nearby " التاعونة " ("al-Ta'ounah"). <ref name="AKT">[http://www.alkhabar-ts.com/index.php?page=view_news&id=0f575cff9f35053fd5b9194ce0d51c8fe714f29cd5ef825a51f66b2704ffd80f#ixzz2EtQlotd7 عقرب .. الناجون من الموت يروون لتلفزيون الخبر حكاية موتهم] Al-Khabar Tele Site, December 13, 2012</ref> A town of that name has a pin on Google Maps, right [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=التاعونة,+Syria&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=34.934145,36.432381&spn=0.034057,0.074072&t=h&hnear=التاعونة،+Masyaf,+Hama+Governorate,+Syria&z=14&iwloc=A here]. As the report says, it's about one kilometer away, nearest to the western (Alawite) district of Aqrab. Alex Thomson reported for Channel 4 from there, pronouncing it Towna; its eastern fringe was as close as he could get to Aqrab. <ref name="AT2" /> Lebanese Al-Mayadeen also had a crew meeting escapees there, with the town unnamed but matches with common sense and some of the people Channel 4 filmed. <ref name="MV" /> <br />
<br />
=== Akrad Ibrahim ===<br />
However, some sources suggest the events, in whole or in part, may have transpired in a smaller, presumably Alawite village a few kilometers north. One way or another, it's worth placing on the map above. Cuban news agency Prensa Latina, for example, reported that the events occurred "''near'' the Syrian town of Akrab," in a place called Akrab Ibrahim. <ref name="PL">[http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=799801&Itemid=1 Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town], Prensa Latina, published Dec 12, 2012</ref> Akrad Ibrahim (أكراد ابراهي) is a small village around five kilometers north of Aqrab up the mountains ([http://wikimapia.org/20968348/en/Akrad-Ibrahim location on wikimapia]). It has one dominant building which looks very much like the typical schools every village in the region has. "Akrad" means "Kurdish" when auto-translated into English. There are some other clues and related developments and rumors, a Kurdish link, and a dead sheikh, that tie this village into events in other ways that are discussed below. <br />
<br />
Based on eyewitness testimonies, Presna Latina reported "there are also 19 Sunni Kurdish civilians among the victims." <ref name="PL">[http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=799801&Itemid=1 Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town], Prensa Latina, published Dec 12, 2012</ref> This place is mentioned in some other reports but mostly described as neighborhood in Aqrab, not as a separate village. Searching for the Arabic name led to announcements on facebook (Dec 9) and a Qatari forum (Dec 10) talking about gangs looting and abducting people in this village which is described as majority Sunni with a Kurdish minority (hence the name), while the villages further up the mountains are described as Alawite.<ref name="AIP">Announcements in Arabic on [https://www.facebook.com/Hama.Coordinators.Union/posts/562481687111724 facebook] and webforum [http://www.qatarshares.com/vb/showpost.php?p=8606067&postcount=12421 Qatarshares], Dec 9/10, 2012</ref> <br />
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Given the many possible narratives and the problematic auto-translation from Arabic, it is hard to make sense of the events they describe, but both talk about a large family named Najjar who either was abducted or did the abducting, either by Alawites or are Alawites themselves. The announcements call on the readers to inform news media and come to help to prevent a massacre that is somehow expected. A Sheikh Ali in Aqrab is said to be able to confirm events. (As we'll see [[Aqrab Massacre#The Ill-Fated Delegation|below]], Sheikh Ali is dead). <br />
<br />
Regardless of the details described here, there was definitely something building up in this village and it seems like the confusion about this topic stems from the fact that two events are merged into one - possible fighting and shelling and hostage negotiations in Aqrab down in the valley and a massacre or tragic event of sorts happening in the school building in Akrad Ibrahim a couple of kilometers away and up the hills.<br />
<br />
== First Reports: A Missile Massacre ==<br />
=== Initial Opposition Reports ===<br />
The Syrian opposition Local Coordination Committees gave their tally of the dead for December 11 - 165 dead nationwide, but "the number of martyrs is able to increase as the number of martyrs in Aqrab Massacre is still unknown yet" <ref name="LC11">[http://www.lccsyria.org/10636 Syria Today 11-12-2012]. Local Coordination Committees, Posted by abeer on December 11th, 2012</ref> This "Aqrab massacre" is not explained. No 125-150 number is included in the list. Their [http://www.lccsyria.org/10644 summary of the following day] didn't help, making no mention of Aqrab. There is no LCC accounting yet, and this is leading some to suspect there really was no regime massacre, that perhaps the rebels were just making up wild (and sort of self-incriminating) stories. For example, the analysts at the site Enduring America pointed to "notable omissions," specifying the government's apparent denial and that "the opposition Local Coordination Committees, a prominent source for claims on casualties, never reported a mass killing from Aqrab." <ref name="EA1">[http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/13/syria-analysis-was-there-a-massacre-in-aqrab-on-tuesday.html Syria Analysis: Was There a "Massacre" in Aqrab on Tuesday?] Enduring America, December 13, 2012</ref> <br />
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The [[Syrian Observatory for Human Rights]] had better coverage this time, but confusing - they heard different versions, at least some of which had to be incorrect:<br />
:''different stories have emerged as to what caused the death and injury of 125-150 civilians, almost all from an Alawite background, in the town of Aqrab as a result of a series of explosions and gunfire. The town is in the southern neighbourhood of Hama and it is near the town of Houla, which witnessed a massacre on the 25th of May''<br />
<br />
:''The first narrative claims that there were 10 pro-regime gunmen who were barricaded in residential buildings with 150 civilians (Alawites also). A delegation was sent to the buildings, made up of 2 Sheikhs and 1 retired officer from the town, in order to negotiate the moving of Alawite civilians out of the building. the delegation was not allowed to leave. Clashes then took place between the pro-regime gunmen and rebel fighters from the neighbouring Houla town, explosions then took place which led to the civilian casualties. 2 rebels were also reported to have killed, also reports that the 3 person delegation was killed, and the head of the pro-regime militia.''<br />
<br />
:''The second narrative is that a series of explosions went off by the buildings inhabited by Syrian Alawites civilians in the town.''<br />
<br />
:''The third narrative is that pro-regime militiamen held Alawite civilians captive in the buildings, and that the rebels attempted to free the civilians, causing several explosions which led to the death of the 125-150 civilians.''<br />
<br />
:''The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights urges the UN to form an independent investigation committee, which include to examine what occurred in the town of Aqrab in order to bring all those responsible for this crime to justice'' <ref name="SOAM">[http://syriahr.com/en/index.php?option=com_news&nid=477&Itemid=2&task=displaynews#.UMhtukYSys0 Conflicting stories regarding the nature of the civilian massacre in Aqrab] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, December 11, 2012</ref><br />
This assemblage is strange, confusing and not entirely flattering to the rebel side. It was, however, widely cited in subsequent media reports, and frequently taken as reason to wonder a bit more than usual just what happened.<br />
<br />
=== Reuters and the Rest ===<br />
Relying mostly on these reports, the confused one and the silent one, many media outlets tried to make immediate sense of the events in reports mostly of December 11 and 12. Reuters managed to file a report on the issue the evening on the 11th, reporting "up to 200 members of President Bashar al-Assad's Alawite minority were injured or killed in an attack on their central Syrian village on Tuesday, activists said." The report, by Erika Solomon and Mariam Karouny, passed on greater than usual skepticism for a mainstream news outlet. They cited a boy survivor who, on rebel video, "gave a similar account" to a rebel fighter they spoke with -a story blaming Shabiha and absolving rebels. But the report did mention the possibility people were hiding in fear of rebel attacks and, more importantly, they noted "'''It was not clear whether the boy was speaking freely'''." <ref name="RE1">[Reuters: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8AJ1FK20121211 Syrian Alawite village attacked, rebels fight around capital]By Erika Solomon and Mariam Karouny, Reuters, December 11, 2012, 5:06pm EST</ref><br />
<br />
A variant report heard the following non-confidence-instilling explanation:<br />
:''A rebel who spoke to Reuters by telephone said fighters had clashed with the army in Aqrab for four days. Rebels had surrounded one building and accused the Shabbiha of using residents hiding there as human shields. “There were 200 people inside and we called on the residents to leave, but the Shabbiha held some women and children by gunpoint. Eventually talks fell apart and the government shelled the building,” said the rebel, who called himself Maysar.''<ref name="RE2">[http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/syria-crisis-alawites-idINDEE8BA0EC20121211 Up to 200 hurt in attack on Syrian Alawite village - activists]Reuters via Daily Star (Lebanon), Dec. 12, 2012, 3:28 AM</ref><br />
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The Telegraph, in contrast, focused on the SOHR's different versions and latched onto the multiple explosions one:<br />
:''125 civilians had been killed or hurt by a string of bomb attacks. Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman later clarified that an unknown number of the victims were in fact fighters. "Between 125 and 150 people were killed or hurt by gunshots and explosions in the village of Aqrab," Mr Abdel Rahman told AFP.'' <ref name="TE1">[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9738688/Syria-explosions-kill-scores-in-Alawite-villages.html Syria: explosions kill scores in Alawite villages] The Telegraph, December 11, 2012 11:41PM GMT</ref><br />
<br />
The BBC and most others would go with what the survivors said on rebel videos. The BBC's first report mentioned the confused SOHR versions, but also cited the same Alawite boy and rebel fighters, and gave a range of death tolls topping out at "as many as 300." <ref name="BC1" /> This report is covered in more detail below.<br />
<br />
=== Two Flawed British Reports: BBC vs. Channel 4 ===<br />
The majority of journalists covering this - and other Syrian incidents - claim that activist reports cannot be confirmed or denied by on-site investigation. For example, consider the BBC's first and fairly detailed report of December 12. It said "it is impossible to verify this complex narrative," and noted "there has been no word at all so far from the government, which is accused of killing its own supporters in order to blame the rebels." <ref name="BC1">[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20691206 'Alawite civilians killed' in Syria village] BBC News. 12 December 2012 Last updated at 03:22 ET</ref> The "complex narrative" the report passed on, from rebel and activist sources, seems patched together and rather confusing. <br />
:''Activists said the [Shabiha] militia-controlled building was being besieged by the rebel Free Syrian Army (FSA). The Shabiha, who are almost entirely Alawite, were using the civilians as human shields, according to the activists. They said village elders were sent to negotiate a release of the hostages and surrender of the militiamen. But the elders were seized and killed, the militia threw grenades at hostages who were trying to run away, and then blew the building up as '''they themselves escaped''', the activists claimed.''<br />
:[...]<br />
:''The activists' account even said that government forces later fired rockets at '''and''' bombed the building with aircraft, killing '''more than 200 women and children''' trapped there, our correspondent adds.'' <br />
<br />
So the rebels besieged and surrounded the building, until they learned of a huge number of human shields held there. Negotiators, with unstated terms, were killed by the Shabiha, who then killed their captives with grenades and/or blew up the building somehow, trapping nearly everyone inside/beneath rubble, and then slipped away through the rebel cordon never to be seen again. The building explosion wasn't enough to kill their now-unneeded human shields, so the government itself finished the job with both artillery and air strikes. They did this to frame the rebels, who were there the whole time but apparently never fired a shot and remained stunned on the sidelines as these events cascaded around them. <br />
<br />
As far as we know, no one on the opposition side managed to video-record a single one of these events. <br />
<br />
In contrast to the BBC's remotely assembled jumble of a story, consider Channel 4's chief correspondent Alex Thomson, who actually went to Aqrab and spoke to locals that were not steered to him by opposition activists. Thomson posted a sneak preview of the report on his blog on the 13th, explaining what he was hearing; the massacre occurred after a sequence of events starting when "rebels reportedly visited from the al-Houla area a few days ago. According to Aqrab villagers they kidnapped the son of the local Alawite religious leader." From there it escalated:<br />
:''The Aqrabi villagers say they mounted a counter-attack to try and free the hostage. There were armed clashes and injuries.''<br />
<br />
:''The villagers say the rebels then came back from al-Houla and took over the place. Most people fled but '''around 260''' were corralled into one section of the village and it is there that they were '''hit by missiles fired by rebels.''''' <ref name="AT1">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/badlands-syrias-vicious-civil-war/3408 The badlands of Syria’s vicious civil war]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 12, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
The contrast with the vast majority of Western reports could hardly be more stark, and Thomson had the edge in that he actually went there. However, it would appear this narrative was also not correct, and was contradicted by the following day's report citing three named and shown alleged escapees. They still blame hostile rebel fighters from Al-Houla for kidnapping hundreds of Alawites, and for anything awful that did happen. However, blowing up any number of people, with missiles or otherwise, was not part of it, as far as they knew. And further, the building they described being held in was still totally intact when Channel 4's crew filmed it. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> (see "It Didn't Happen?" immediately below.)<br />
<br />
== The Real Story ==<br />
=== It Didn't Happen? ===<br />
From the start, there were signs that pointed to no such massacre occurring. These started less-than-compelling to Western minds; there was first no official statement from the Syrian government, and then an apparent denial from military sources in the region. The statement ran by SANA was strangely terse and unelaborated; in its entirety, it said: "A military source in the Central Region on Wednesday denied news claiming that a massacre took place in Aqrab in Hama countryside." <ref name="SANA1">[http://www.sana-syria.com/eng/21/2012/12/12/456830.htm SANA report]Dec.12, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
One Alawite resident of the area told Reuters the problems began with the rebel assault of December 2, but it didn't end how rebels said. "We don't believe there was a massacre but we think there are a number of hostages being held. Clashes began when rebels started shelling the shabbiha checkpoint," he said by Skype. "But now the phone lines seem to be down in Aqrab so that's all we know." <ref name="RE1" /><br />
<br />
As widely noted, there have been '''no videos''' posted of 125-150 massacre victims - or any number - to confirm the stories. That in itself would make the case highly unusual for a Syrian massacre, but then this was already an unusual case. There are no previous alleged massacres of so many Alawites in one place surrounded by rebel fighters to compare this to. No bodies to show is the most straightforward - but not only - reason no bodies would be shown. Fear that the propaganda coupof more dead baby images would backfire against the opposition this time is another possible reason.<br />
<br />
The lack of video and official denial were cited by the analysts at Enduring America, along with "notable omissions" like how the Local Coordination Committees "never reported a mass killing from Aqrab." (at least not officially - someone from the LCC reportedly did partially confirm it, as EA noted [http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/11/syria-live-coverage-so-are-al-qaeda-terrorists-winning-the-c.html#2032 here]) Between the three, the collective doubt led to a possibility worth "pursuing" in which "the town was bombed, and the largely-Alawite population has split into pro- and anti-regime groups. There has been fighting. Perhaps 6 to 10 people were killed by the shelling. There are further concerns that other residents, held hostage or cut off from escape, were slain." <ref name="EA1"/> That's doesn't cover everything even if stretched taut. But it's an admirable effort, considering the vast gulf between the two (main) narratives and the unknown number of unknowns between them. That was acknowledged with a later post after learning of Channel 4's version (see immediately below). <br />
<br />
:''As of now, it's not possible to reconcile the two narratives. Both rely on eyewitness testimony. Nobody, it seems, has actually witnessed a "massacre," however, and there is no video of the bodies uploaded by either side. The reality is that all we know for sure is that there are two conflicting and unsubstantiated claims. We also know that there has been intense bombing of the village, at least since the FSA moved into the village on December 2-3rd.''<ref name="EA3">[http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/14/syria-live-coverage-protests-bombs-and-a-victory-that-cannot.html#1439 Syria Live Coverage: Protests, Bombs, and A Victory That "Cannot Be Ruled Out"]James Miller, Enduring America, Friday, December 14, 2012 at 6:00</ref> <br />
<br />
=== Channel 4's Report ===<br />
The first major and strongest case by far for a fabricated event came from Alex Thomson’s second dispatch, with a video report for Channel 4 News. On Wednesday Thomson himself and his team travelled from Hama to Aqrab where they interviewed a number of witnesses. This was "the first independently observed story of Aqrab from the first outside journalist to reach this area," with the three witnesses interviewed independently, and confirming each other on all the major details of what happened. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> He says they were supported as well by "dozens" of others he spoke to taking refuge in Al-Taonah, and who wanted to stay off-camera. <br />
<br />
According to the displaced persons, on Dec 2 around five cars full of bearded men with non-local accents came from the direction of Al-Houla. <br />
<br />
:''They all insist, as did everybody else we met, that the rebels from the Free Syrian Army (FSA) corralled around 500 Alawite civilians in a large red-coloured two-storey house belonging to a prominent businessman called Abu Ismail. They then say they were held – around 500 men, women and children – in this building until the early hours of Tuesday 11 December. Nine days. ''<br />
:[...] <br />
:''They all agree matters came to a head when a delegation of villagers was sent on Monday at 4pm to break the deadlock. [...] It appears negotiations ran between these elders and the rebels for around four hours, ending in deadlock at around eight o’clock on Monday night. At that point, shooting broke out, '''the rebels firing through the windows and shouting that they had booby-trapped the building.''''' <br />
<br />
:''The eye-witnesses say that the shooting died down at about midnight, after which a deal was done. In screaming night-time chaos and intermittent shooting, three vehicles took around 70 of the prisoners to safety in the nearest village [Al-Taonah] a mile away. However, it seems a fourth vehicle took a number of prisoners to al-Houla, where two – an unidentified woman and a boy – were treated for injuries in a rebel field hospital. The woman and boy blamed pro-government militia for taking the prisoners, according to rebel websites, and that is the version of events which has gone around the world. Until now.'' <br />
:[...] <br />
:''Curiously, rebel websites say the building containing the prisoners who remained, was completely destroyed by government artillery and air strikes on Tuesday. However, '''we saw and filmed the building''' in which eye-witnesses said they were imprisoned, '''and it appears intact''' – as does the rest of the village.'' (see below) <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
The thrice-bombed house, as filmed on the 13th, is shown and discussed below. Evidence of hundreds of dead was not found. Like others, Thomson pointed to the lack of video evidence on Youtube, which made little sense given the rebel narrative of a massive government crime that occurred, after all, in an area they controlled and could film at leisure. And further, he points out how the rebels never mentioned these hundreds of prisoners held by Shabiha during the nine-day standoff, even as they released videos and dispatches about their conquest and patrolling of the town, ignoring a "propaganda coup" for over a week until after its alleged culmination.<br />
<br />
=== The Hostage House and Smoke Clues ===<br />
[[File:Aqrab Hostage House enhanced.png|thumb|Witnesses say they were held hostage in this red house in Aqrab]]The house Thomson had pointed out as the site of the Alawites' imprisonment, inset at right, is not hard to spot. It's large and red, at least on the visible upper floor. By lining up the hill side of town and all three minarets, it seems the crew filmed from southwest of town, near [http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.932973,36.437909&spn=0.001082,0.002411&t=k&z=19 this building] on the outskirts of Altaonh. The house in question is likely the one [http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.937778,36.45512&spn=0.001082,0.002411&t=k&z=19 dead-centered here on Google maps]. (see [[Aqrab Massacre#Locations Map|below]] for visual explanation.) This is in northwest center of town, possibly in the western, Alawite district or in the Sunni area but near the "front line" (we don't know where the line was). <br />
<br />
Thomson heard from officials in Hama that that prisoners are still presumed to be held in the house, and negotiations were still ongoing. He also heard that the hostage house was owned by "a prominent businessman called Abu Ismail." <ref name="AT2" /> This could be a financier and enabler of the hostage-takers, a person of interest, or someone else, even an ally of the Alawites or one of them. Channel 4's first report said upon rebel attack "most people fled but around 260 were corralled into one section of the village." <ref name="AT1" /> Syria Politik in fact reported the targeted people had first herded themselves here: "gunmen attacked the homes of Alawites who were '''gathered in a specific area to facilitate their protection''' and for fear of being kidnapped, and gunmen surrounded the place," apparently forced them to concentrate further into just one building, "and asked the men to get out of the building..." <ref name="SPK">[http://www.syria-politic.com/ar/Default.aspx?subject=1200#.Ubz6LUZo098 سيريا بوليتيك ينشر القصة الكاملة لمجزرة عقرب..مقتل وخطف 500 علوي وسني] ("Syria Politik published the full story of the massacre of Aqrab - killing and kidnapping of 500 Alawi and Sunni) Syria Politik, December 15, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
<br />
While the building is clearly intact - despite the alleged warplane bombing, etc. - there might be smoke rolling out or up the vertical gap; soot stains from the lower window can be seen at right, as well as above the windows of the smaller attached/foreground building (likely the building at the nearest SW corner of the same block). No smoke seems to be escaping from the upper floor windows, which seem to be blacked-out and perhaps sealed airtight. This is important, as one of the witnesses said last she saw, '''"they’re burning tires inside the building to suffocate [the prisoners]."''' <ref name="MV" /> (see below for more on conditions in the Abu Ismail house). No other witnesses to our knowledge specify this abuse, but some other video clues support the significant involvement of smoke. One boy survivor documented in Al-Houla has soot-stained hands, <ref name="RV2">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7l3jyovsAw Title trans: 12/11/2012 Alawite sect children in Hula] Youtube video, Published by لحولة الابية on December 11, 2012</ref>, and an older woman has smoke-stained nostrils and hands. <ref name="RV7">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4DBBjRi7qY Title trans: Testimony of a woman survivor of the massacre of scorpion 12/11/2012]Youtube video, published by SyriaJusticeChannel on December 11, 2012</ref><br />
;Smoke-stained Aqrab victims/survivors on rebel video<br />
<center><gallery><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 1.png|older woman, stained nostrils <ref name="RV7" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 2.png|same, sooty hands<br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 3.png|Teenage boy survivor, badly smoke-stained hands, possibly burned as well.<ref name="RV2" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 4.png|Possibly the same boy (was shot a few times in the backs of his legs)<ref name="RV3">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdl6zFNd8I الحولة طفل صغير جدا من الطائفة العلوية11/12/2012]Youtube video, Dec. 11, 2012</ref><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 5.png|A different teenage boy survivor, nose and face stained (shot in the back, apparently)<ref name="RV2" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 6.png|That same boy<br />
File:Aqrab victim Amal.png|Possibly related: dead 6-year-old girl in Houla - soot-stained face, head sliced open (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#A Dead Child?|here]]). <br />
</gallery></center><br />
<br />
=== The Jubeili Family ===<br />
Forthcoming. One important aspect is the prevalence of one extended Alawi family, the Jubeilis (different spellings), who reportedly comprised the majority of those held - perhaps 300 total. At least two Jubeili men were also reportedly among the small group of Shabiha responsible for everything in initial rebel reports. Clearly the true story behind this alleged connection is worth pursuing. See some details at [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#The Jubeili Family Angle|talk page, The Jubeili Family Angle]]<br />
<br />
=== The Captives, In Detail ===<br />
More accurately, this section is for those who escaped their captivity and can speak about it. The alleged Alawite prisoners are still most famously seen as the Shabiha-blaming rebel-story-supporters in rebel-held Al-Houla. These few will be studied here in more detail in time. But besides those few, controlled glimpses, is a broader body of people supporting the opposite narrative. And then there are those, however many, who've been killed, and the rest, however many, that remain alive in captivity and great danger. The best information comes from the large number who made it out and can talk away from the rebels.<br />
<br />
==== Refugees on Their Ordeal ====<br />
A report from Lebanese Al-Mayadeen TV is of great interest here. It can be seen in the second part of this video, starting at 6:30. The English subtitles tell us Al-Mayadeen’s crew couldn’t enter the town itself due to the fighting, but visited neighboring villages where refugees reside. In a large building, they film at least three dozen people of all ages, getting along as they can. “Most of them fled Aqrab after the town’s siege.” <ref name="MV">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZGIuXLHIs Al-Mayadeen Report] Published on Dec 15, 2012</ref> These seem to be primarily those who Thomson’s first witness said ran away before the captive-taking, although some seem to have been held in the prison. <br />
<br />
An old man told Al-Mayadeen “the armed gangs attacked them, from Al-Houla and Aqrab. … They stole the peoples’ homes then torched them. … some of them left. As for the other ones, where they took them, we don’t know. … this is our problem. They have ALL sorts of weapons.” <ref name="MV" /> Elderly woman Hayat Youseh recalled for Channel 4 "they wore black ski masks. They took our phones and keys. They forced us out of our homes and set fire to them. I hope God burns them like they burned our homes." <ref name="AT2" /> Interestingly, this is almost an exact quote from a different, younger woman displaced during the nearby [[the Houla massacre|Houla Massacre]] (see video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7n0U5hvWQ here], 6 :14). <br />
<br />
One chubby boy airs no larger complaint to Al-Mayadeen than a lack of school and reading. But one woman mentioned the lack of food: “There are 25 babies and their mothers are under siege. Each baby is being fed a single olive each day.” Another, rather upset woman, painted a grim picture of the prison she apparently spent some time in: <br />
:''“we were collecting rainwater with a vessel to let our children drink, many of them still nursing, I swear. Nothing is reaching the town. There’s no food, nothing. '''They’re burning tires inside the building to suffocate them.''' '''There’s no water, no food. Perhaps 3/4 of the people there are already dead by now.'''”''<ref name="MV" /><br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab alkhabar 1.png|left|320px]]<br />
Syrian private TV Channel Al-Khabar Tele Site ran a detailed report, apparently video originally, that spoke to a large number of those escaped and released. An Arabic text transcript gave less-than-ideal results in Google translate (used below). <ref name="AKT" /> Some of the interviewees are shown in the stills they provided, one reproduced at left. The two women in the left and center can be seen together in Channel 4's video report at 3:35, meaning the two crews met the same group of refugees. That group also includes "a little girl crying in the dark corner," five years old, who "lost three brothers, her mother and father, and tasted the taste of 10 days of bitter custody." Escapee Um Ammar, an elderly woman of about 70 (she does not know), tears filling her eyes, mentions "my granddaughter's baby" and olive bread, then falls silent. <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
By the story Alkhabar heard, the attack started after dawn prayers (presumably on the 2nd) with announced threats against the Al Jubeili family, a loyalist clan of 300 members. "Gunmen dragged those three hundred to one house which they said had IEDs planted around it. The rebels may have slaughtered the Jubeilis’ livestock, and they gave them little food or water. There was an effort to separate some people, but families decided to "die together." A young man "tells how they hear sounds of clashes and shootings during the last four days from the days of their detention," and on "the tenth night," a rebel he felt was drunk fired in through the window, killing another youth and hitting a woman in the back. After this shooting, "Gunmen opened the door; to calm the chaos and the sounds of screaming and anger, they decided to release a number of detainees." They "began to bring the number of women and children," but everyone rushed the doors and, apparently, some managed to escape at that time. One woman described running with her children in the dark, legs bleeding, hunger driving them to "Altaonh," where they were interviewed. <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
==== Numbers: Captured, Released, Unaccounted For ====<br />
Both Channel 4 and Al-Mayadeen heard that those who didn’t escape Aqrab in time numbered around 500 Alawites, who were all taken hostage. The rebel captors entered negotiations with the authorities to exchange four of their arrested leaders for the civilians, on generous terms. "There was an agreement to release civilians in four batches ... One hundred civilians for each leader." The fourth leader would apparently set free the last 200. "'''Three hundred civilians have already been released'''," the report said, "but the unexpected happened when '''the remaining 200 disappeared'''.” <ref name="MV" /> After getting their three top choices freed, perhaps they decided #4 was expendable, kept his prisoners, and … we don’t know what they did with them. The initial reports said it was around 200 people, maybe 260 or 300, in the house when it was blown up by everyone but the rebels. The house remains, but there still has been no revised explanation. <br />
<br />
Al Khabar heard similar: <br />
:''"[there remain] about 200 martyrs missing and unaccounted for, after the fall of the shells on the house prison, after clashes between al-Faruq in control of the entire region and the army. It is not exactly known by the escapees what happened afterwards to their remaining family members, but they know very well that this is not the Syria in which they lived their lives safely ..."'' <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
Cuban news agency Prensa Latina heard in contrast that rebel "mercenaries" initially "kidnapped about 300 people," and when given an ultimatum by the SAA to release the prisoners and surrender, instead killed 233, including 88 children and women. <ref name="PL" /> It should be noted this would leave the clear majority of those killed - about 145 - men, which is partially consistent with the alleged rebel intent - to kill the men. <br />
<br />
Whether this variant report is based on a guess or on information the others lack remains unclear, but most sources are firmly agnostic, if not hopeful, on the fate of the remainder. Channel 4's Thomson, for one, said officials in Hama "believe hundreds are still held." <ref name="AT2" /><br />
<br />
==== Taken to Al-Houla ====<br />
Of those who were released, Thomson only heard about one batch of 70, driven out in four trucks. Three arrived in Altaonh, but "A fourth truck left, but never made it to the village. That truck went to rebel-heldal-Houla instead and there, an unnamed woman and boy, apparently speaking under duress, told rebels that pro-government militias, not rebels, took them prisoner." <ref name="AT2" /><br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Rescue baby.png|thumb|A young survivor of the alleged Aqrab Massacre]]We get so far several glimpses of the prisoners who remained in rebel hands, mostly in Al-Houla, being sewn-up or giving testimony. There is only one brief view known of "rescued" Alawites perhaps just arriving in Houla, not yet made to speak. This was posted by activist Jalal Suleiman of the [[Houla Media Office]] only on December 14, three days after their more useful videos went up, and just as Channel 4 was raising questions about the lack of rebel videos of the dead. This too failed to show any number of bodies, but rather, as translated, showed "Aqrab scenes shown for the first time during the rescue civilians." <ref name="JS1">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxAKls_RQ6w عقرب مشاهد تعرض لاول مرة اثناء انقاذ المدنيين] Youtube video, Published December 14, 2012 by جلال سليمان</ref> This shows two wounded victims: the toddler at right, a fighter showing off the torn-up sole of the child's right foot. An old woman in a dusty, torn-up black hijab is then seen. She's been badly injured in the head, left eye puffped up and bloody, left side of her shawl soaked in blood. Her face is a horrifying mask of human misery. She seems to protest something, but the armed men gently push her along the way to wherever she's being taken.<br />
<br />
Hassan Hassan described this scene for The National (UAE):<br />
:''In one video recorded almost immediately after the massacre, another old woman and a young girl are taken by rebels to a field hospital. Although the rebels keep reassuring them, the old woman continues to plead with a bearded man to rescue her. The woman then seems scared as rebels shout "Allahu Akbar", God is great.'' <ref name="HHN" /><br />
<br />
=== The Ill-Fated Delegation ===<br />
One aspect of the Aqrab saga that’s strangely consistent across all sources is a group of 6-9 local elites, including three Sunni clerics, the town’s mayor, and two retired military officers (for more details correlating reports and names, see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#The Delegation (in detail)|Talk: The Delegation]]). By reports, these tried to negotiate some solution to the impasse. At least some and perhaps all of them apparently died in the process. <br />
<br />
Exactly what happened and why is greatly contested and shrouded in mystery. The BBC heard from activists that "village elders were sent to negotiate a release of the hostages and surrender of the militiamen." <ref name="BC1" /> Hassan Hassan referred to "mediation from two Sunni religious leaders from Aqrab" that convinced the imprisoned Alawites they woulldn't be harmed, and some releases were agreed to. <ref name="HHN">[http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/story-of-a-massacre-tells-of-the-alawites-caught-in-the-middle Story of a massacre tells of the Alawites caught in the middle] Hassan Hassan, The National (UAE), Dec 17, 2012</ref> This agreement the “Shabiha” then allegedly rejected. Alex Thomson noted “(The witnesses) all agree matters came to a head when a delegation of villagers was sent on Monday at 4 pm to break the deadlock.” <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciua_3Rin4I video])</ref><br />
<br />
What they were urging exactly isn’t clear. Only a promise of no harm is mentioned on the rebel end, and no one mentions the delegates making any demands on the rebels. Presna Latina heard that among the dead were "representatives of Akrab town that acted as mediators in favour of those held in prison before the mercenaries.'' <ref name="PL" /> Otherwise, all seem to be local Sunnis who apparently met the rebels’ approval as mediators and were allowed in, perhaps sent to talk sense into the "Shabiha" to surrender and let their "prisoners" go. In the "chains of love" possibility (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Chains of Love?|talk page]] for now), they’d be urging the men to surrender to execution, and the women and children to unknown conditions in rebel captivity. Hassan for The National noted as one of the good signs we can find in Umm Ayham's story that the Sunni villagers hadn't attacked the Alawites earlier in the conflict, and even when they did, "the mediators," who tried to help free the people, "were also from the village,” and in fact were even Sunnis. <ref name="HHN" /> Whether they were really trying to help the desperate Alawites or to help grease along their destruction isn’t entirely clear. <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Sheikh Ali.png|thumb|left|Sheikh Ali, deceased]]The one visual confirmation we have of a death in the delegation is a video purporting to prove the “martyrdom of Sheikh Ali Omar” (as Google translated), via Houla activist hassan husein (his only video uploaded December 11 – the 10/11 date is apparently a typo). <ref name="SAV>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3rqDmyyvbA الحولة - عقرب 11-10-2012 استشهاد الشيخ علي العمر.] Youtube video, published December 11, 2012 by hassan699721</ref> The man shown (at left here) is middle-aged, in secular dress. He’s got blood coming from his nose and right ear, and a badly puffed-up black eye on the left. He was apparently beaten up, perhaps had his nose broken, and might have been shot somewhere in the head, or just beaten more.<br />
<br />
Rebels said the Shabiha killed the sheikh and perhaps the other members of the delegation. The BBC reported that "the elders were seized and killed," before "the militia threw grenades at hostages who were trying to run away, and then blew the building up as they themselves escaped, the activists claimed." <ref name="BC1" /> What might be the Tafas Coordination Committee reported on the 11th that Sunni clerics, including a Sheikh Ali, were sent to "negotiate with Shabiha the release of … ''175 women and girls''," but Shabiha leader Farzat Jubeili killed the clerics, apparently along with "154 girls and women of the Alawite sect." Further, Ismail (Jubeili) "detonated a bomb in the dignitaries." <ref name="TC">[https://www.facebook.com/TafasCoordination/posts/301479083302821 شبيحة عقرب يفجرون النساء والأطفال والجيش الحر يقوم بإنقاذ ما تبقى منهم "القصة كاملة"](The shabiha of Aqrab blows up the women and the children and the Free Army begins to rescue what remains of them "full story") تنسيقية طفس الحرة (Coordination of free Tafas) December 11, 2012 6:54 PM</ref><br />
<br />
Alex Thomson spoke with officials in Hama negotiating for the prisoners’ release. He reported back these officials “believe," but don't have confirmation, that "the imam, and the mayor, and many others, have been killed." <ref name="AT2" /> The refugees in Taonah didn’t mention them being killed, but do specify it was they who decided to take the negotiators prisoner. As Thomson reported “When they arrived, the prisoners would not let them leave. As Ali (Al-Hosin) puts it: “Once they came into the house, we just said, ‘We all go together, men women and children – or we all die together.’” On video, Ali is translated saying "either we all go out together, including the sheikh and the mayor, or we all die together." <ref name="AT2" /> But that's not quite the way it turned out.<br />
<br />
With no clear and credible explanation offered, there are a few main possibilities for how these men might have died, each with its pros and cons with regard to the known evidence:<br />
* As stated, they were killed by the Shabiha captors, before the same killed all their wards and committed suicide/vanished. <br />
* The delegation saw the desperate plight of the prisoners and voluntarily stayed in solidarity with them, and were later killed by rebels in revenge for the embarrassment <br />
* The prisoners who admit taking them also killed them and didn’t mention that part. <br />
The first option is just what rebels allege and is seriously unlikely, given the other evidence now available. The second option is the most emotionally appealing. The third is perhaps the best explanation. Considering the mass of starving Alawite prisoners already fiercely resisting the rebel final solution for them, and a few well-fed Sunnis wading in urging them to give in, it’s quite possible the latter could get themselves shot or beaten down, depending what was handy (the prisoners could, theoretically, have smuggled in a few guns, which would help explain the stand-off situation).<br />
<br />
== Locations Map ==<br />
From video evidence, we can identify these relevant place in Aqrab: <br />
[[File:Aqrab Locations Map.png|center|700px]]<br />
<br />
* To the south/southeast (off-frame): Al-Houla<br />
* Lower right, the location a mutilated man named Ahmed Daoud was filmed, ostensibly on Dec. 10, slumped in a chair on the approach from al-Houla (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Ahmed Daoud|here]]).<br />
* To the southwest (off-frame): Al-Taonah, refuge for freed captives.<br />
* To the west (off frame): Baarin, like al-Houla, a rebel town with sectarian tensions against Aqrab's Alawi, possible source of some attackers.<br />
* Western Alawite district: boundaries unknown: housed about 2-3,000 of a town of 10-13,000. Easily hit from Baarin.<br />
* "HQ" means the local security headquarters attacked Dec. 2/3, as seen in many videos (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Context: December 2nd battle|here]]). It was apparently the station of the local Popular Committees ("Shabiha") and after, a rebel-held check-point guarding the entrance from the regional capitol Hama (eg, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VscBLDfWKs0 Dec. 6 video.]) <br />
* "Red Crescent" parked is not certain, but the best identifiable match for the intersection the Syrian Arab Red Crescent team was seen on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKpSx8qYSRY a video dated Dec. 10]. See also below, [[Aqrab Massacre#Red Crescent, Silent|section below]].) They would likely have come from Hama and already passed the main checkpoint. Possible route to see the hostages suggested with a "?" <br />
* Abu Ismael's hostage house: unclear if it's part of the Alawite area, but likely so. Yellow road section is just to to help clarify its location (and to suggest a more direct route for the Red Crescent). Location pinned down by Channel 4 video (filmed from the edge of Taonah), derivative panorama, and Filed of View study below.<br />
[[File:Aqrab FoV Study.png|center|700px]]<br />
<br />
== World Reaction ==<br />
=== An Alawite Awakening? ===<br />
A site called Free Halab, (Free Aleppo) posted an entry on Dec. 12 blaming the government and Shabiha: <br />
:''Some if not many have feared that the revolution would unleash massacres, ethnic cleaning and even genocide upon the Alawite population of Syria. ... This horrific crime, however, was not committed by revolutionaries, extremist or otherwise. This is the story of some of those women and children who survived the massacre perpetrated against hundreds of them by the savage and psychotic Shabbiha of al-Assad, as told by the survivors themselves and by activists documenting their testimonies. All of them are Alawites.''<br />
Cited: the same videos mentioned in other reports, and a text account the same effect. The entry continued:<br />
:''According to the testimonies, the purpose of this massacre was to frame the FSA. Juan Cole who is in Damascus, however, mentions that he has been going to all the regime’s propaganda channels and found that there was “not a single peep about it.” Perhaps it was only for the Alawites to know about, to fear for their fate if al-Assad falls, whether at the hands of the FSA or the regime. Like these poor people from Aqrab, '''the Alawite community of Syria has been taken hostage.'''''<ref name="FH">[http://freehalab.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/assads-shabbiha-massacre-alawite-women-and-children-in-aqrab-hama/Assad’s Shabbiha Massacre Alawite Women and Children in Aqrab, Hama] Free Halab, Dec. 12, 210</ref><br />
<br />
There was a vague suggestion that the Alawites of Aqrab had been trying to work hand-in-hand with the FSA to break the government's grip. A video of December 4 purports to show [http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fsa-and-the-alawites-at-al-hola-http/ FSA and the Alawites at Aqrab village]. Cluster bombs are shown, as rebel fighters speak of their time in the village. It's all in Arabic, so we can't tell if these are supposed to be Alawite FSA, FSA working with Alawites, FSA threatening to kill Alawites, or what. <br />
<br />
The new massacre, it was hoped, would caused more yet to wake up and reject the government and its crimes more fully. The Tafas Coordination Committee announced on the evening of the 11th (Google-translated from Arabic) cites opposition leader in Turkey Khaled Khoja saying the crimes at Aqrab were "part of the massacres committed by the Assad regime against the Syrian people, and that the massacre confirms that the Assad regime does not represent the Alawite sect."<ref name="TC" /> This message was consistent from the front lines as well. One rebel fighter seen on video "reassuring" a badly injured Alawi boy, told the boy and the camera in Arabic “Bashar does not represent the Alawite sect. The Syrian people are one.”<ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
A few early Twitter messages sought to spread this idea from the outset. [https://twitter.com/TaziMorocco/status/278626685807644672 Tazi Morocco] tweeted "#Aqrab Massacre: 10 pro regime gunmen held 150 alawite hostages, and killed them when #FSA tried to save them #Syria." [http://ufn.virtues.fi/crisistracker/story.php?storyid=11736351 NM Syria tweet]: "The Alawites in Aqrab oppose the regime and its crimes. Regime forces bombed and shelled Aqrab this morning. #Syria" - First posted 2012-12-11 19:21:46 by NMSyria. Response: "Today is a clear warning to Alawites, the regime will also hurt them to get what it wants. Awful things happening in Aqrab #Syria" - First posted 2012-12-11 19:31:36 by Rose Alhoms. <br />
<br />
The New York Times, under the headline "Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings," said the massacre details "remain unclear," but they reported "a shocking episode of Alawite-on-Alawite violence" when "attacks by Alawite militias on their own civilian populations have so far been unheard-of." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/world/middleeast/alawite-massacre-in-syria.html?_r=0 Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings] By LIAM STACK and HANIA MOURTADA, New York Times, Published: December 12, 2012</ref> The exciting lessons to be drawn were there to exploit, and as the Times reported: <br />
:''Faiek al-Meer, a longtime antigovernment activist, wrote on Facebook that the Aqrab episode could be seen as a metaphor for the predicament facing the entire Alawite sect. Mr. Assad, he wrote, “will continue to fight to defend his seat and the interests of his clique even if has to use the Alawites as human shields to protect himself.”'' <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
The same day brought a more acute manifestation of the Alawite awakening narrative, from the leader of the National Coalition for Opposition Forces and the Syrian Revolution, Mouaz Alkhatib, speaking at the "Friends of Syria" conference in Marrakech, Morocco. On the day after the alleged massacre, just as it was hitting the world news circuit, he managed to exploit the event's most valuable property while apparently failing to mention or confirm it directly. As Reuters partially quoted him saying:<br />
:''"We send a direct message to the Alawite brethren. The Syria revolution is extending its hand to you, so extend your hand back and start civil disobedience against the regime because it repressed you like it repressed us."'' <ref name="DS1">[http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Dec-12/198218-syrian-opposition-leader-calls-on-alawites-to-rise-up.ashx#axzz2EfS24rQn Syrian opposition leader calls on Alawites to rise up]Daily Star (Lebanon) December 12, 2012 </ref><br />
Saudi paper Al-Sharq al-Awsat reported on Alkhatib's statements; a BBC Monitoring extract summarized: "Opposition calls on Alawites to resort to civil disobedience and considers 'Aqrab Massacre' a turning point" <ref name="SA1">[http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-312095632/syrian-opposition-urges-alawites.html Syrian opposition urges Alawites to change stand after Aqrab "massacre".]Al-Awsat, via BBC Monitoring, via accessmylibrary.com</ref><br />
<br />
As late as the 13th, Enduring America was following a theory of a massacre-free scenario that still involved some degree of Alawite uprising to explain the alleged, and exaggerated, intra-sect violence. In this attempt to make sense of it all, "the town was bombed, and the largely-Alawite population has split into pro- and anti-regime groups. There has been fighting,"a few deaths, and no massacre. <ref name="EA1"/> Then Channel 4's reports hit, and the calls went quiet; it didn't seem to be such an exciting "turning point" any longer.<br />
<br />
=== The News Spreads A Bit ===<br />
At least two Arabic-language video reports from the safe haven of Al-Taonah are known: Al-Khabar TeleSite (Syria)<ref name="AKT" /> and Al-Mayadeen (Lebanon) <ref name="MV" /> The details they heard and share are in line with Channel 4's report, and worked into the content above. Clearly, these reports have figured little into Western and opposition reports by which the world prefers to move. The following traces out the contours of how that world reacted to the ambiguity inserted by Channel 4's report as a lone anomaly with absolutely no further details available.<br />
<br />
Other Western media outlets were fairly slow to pick up Channel 4's important addition. The Los Angeles Times, for one, did include it in a Dec. 15 report as adding "mystery" to the case. <ref name="LA1">[http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-syrian-town-fate-20121215,0,6776757.story Mystery surrounds fate of Syrians held in town of Aqrab]Patrick J.McDonnel, The Los Angeles Times, Dec. 15, 2012</ref> The report by Patrick J. McDonnel cited the recent rebel destruction of a Shia mosque in the country's north, and said in part:<br />
:''Opposition videos circulated widely on the Internet suggest that pro-government militiamen known as shabiha were responsible for the killings in Aqrab. An unanswered question was why regime gunmen would kill Alawites presumably allied with the government.'' <br />
:''Britain’s Channel 4 News managed this week to reach the outskirts of Aqrab. Its version of events implicates the rebels.'' <br />
The details are then related in moderate detail.<br />
<br />
Over the following days, a few oft-cited rebel-supporting experts and artful media spinners spoke up, tacitly acknowledging that the initial rebel story in Aqrab was apparently a lie, and that at the very least the incident is troubling. But by and large, they have also managed to frame the mystery of the missing captives as all past-tense, somehow ambiguous in in its moral implications, and something too complex to ever be fully understood. (citations needed)<br />
<br />
=== Red Crescent, Silent ===<br />
Channel 4's report passed on that the Red Crescent, the Muslim version of the Red Cross, "gained access to the prisoners nine days into the standoff" and could clear up for good which side's forces held them by telling the world. "However, this is a dangerous place," he noted [[Mazraat al-Qubeir massacre#Investigators Obstructed and Shot At|with authority]], "and so far the Red Crescent have made no comment." <ref name="AT2" /> <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Red Crescent 1.png|thumb|left|Red Crescent crew in Aqrab, perhaps to see the Alawites]]Supporting this somewhat is the lack of such a statement, despite a low-quality 30-second video posted December 10, showing a team from the Red Crescent, purportedly in Aqrab. <ref name="RCV">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKpSx8qYSRY الحولة عقرب منظمة الهلال الأحمر تزور البلدة] Trans: Hula Scorpion Red Crescent Organization visit town" Youtube video, published by Amr Faour, Dec. 10, 2012</ref> No mention is made of the purpose of their visit, but they're sitting in their parked ambulance, awaiting some clearance to move forward, ''something like'' nine days in (more like eight, at the most) to the quiet crisis. If they're speaking with the captors to arrange a visit, it must be remembered this is an opposition activist standing here filming them, and it seems to be their fighters standing at the windows. It's not certain which part of town this is filmed in, but a good guess is ventured [[Aqrab Massacre#Locations Map|on the map above]], looking like a second rebel checkpoint on their likely path. The team looks somber (see inset). It's not clear if this is before or after seeing conditions at the Abu Ismail house or if they ever got there; a transcription of what's audible would provide clues.<br />
<br />
=== Human Rights Watch Inaction ===<br />
LA Times passed on Nadim Houry, deputy director of the Middle East division of Human Rights Watch was quoted as saying the situation was "very murky," but somehow he was sure "a number of people" had been killed.<br />
:''"There are various narratives there, and we don’t have enough to have a conclusion yet," Houry said. "I’m not using the word massacre. It’s not clear to me how they died."''<ref name="LA1" /><br />
What's even less clear is if they (anything resembling the 125-150 first reported) died at all. The story saying how that happened seems to be untrue, and while no one can be sure the captives are still alive, no one else has any information on any significant numbers of dead. While the point of the LA Times article was to react to the new version from Channel 4, Mr. Houry explains he wasn't asked about that, only the previous "Alawite v. Alawite" version, which he called murky, before something and even now, after something. “when i was asked the question, narrative was Alawites killed Alawites. I said, details were murky. Which by they still are. … FYI Journo asked me about Alawite v. Alawite.” <ref name="NHT">[https://twitter.com/nadimhoury Twitter feed @Nadim Houry]Dec. 17 tweets:</ref><br />
<br />
As of February 11, two months after the alleged massacre, Human Rights Watch still has not issued any official statement whatsoever. Mr. Houry had assured the public early on that there was an investigation quietly proceeding: "still investigating. … ongoing investigation … Where did I say we concluded our investigation.” <ref name="NHT" /> This delay was the subject of a critical open letter to HRW, sent by wiki member Adam Larson (Caustic Logic) on Dec. 22. <ref name="CI1">[http://ciwclibya.org/lettersandpressreleases/onhrwsmurkyinvestigationofthecrimesataqrab.html On HRW's "murky" Investigation of the Crimes at Aqrab] Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya, Dec. 22, 2012</ref> At the moment, it seems likely their investigation will never have a conclusion. <br />
<br />
<br />
== The Video Record ==<br />
There are plenty of videos around of alleged survivors and witnesses to the events. These are covered below. Here, we look for cases where the camera itself was a witness and lets the rest of us be. <br />
<br />
=== Video of the Attacks of December 10/11 ===<br />
Videos of the negotiations, Shabiha captors, the fire fight, grenades lobbed at prisoners, blowing up the building, army shelling it, or warplanes bombing it, or any violence or anything happening around the building, apparently do not exist in the public sphere. Video proof of the events is apparently not the strong point of the rebel argument here. If any surface, they will be quickly noted here. According to the emerging narrative related by survivors and escapees, the final sequence of events rebels give as leading up to the bombing actually began on the afternoon of the 10th, running up to midnight, apparently culminating in the first hours of Dec. 11. Anyone looking through videos might keep that timeframe in mind and look for night or early morning shots. <br />
<br />
The closest glimpse we're allowed is Jalal Suleiman's "rescue" video published only as Channel 4's questions were first aired, three days after the other videos, as mentioned above. It seems to be filmed mid-morning, presumably on Dec. 11. <ref name="JS1" /><br />
<br />
=== Preceding Events ===<br />
As Thomson heard, the taking of hostages didn't occur on the day of the alleged massacre, but rather nine days earlier. Since the reported rebel take-over of the city is of such duration, anything from December 2 forward might be of value in understanding what happened during the curious blank spot in the record that is Dec. 10/11 prior to the interviews with survivors. <br />
<br />
A good list of some of these is compiled on [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Context: December 6th battle|the discussion page]].<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Massacres]]<br />
[[Category:Houla]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aqrab_Massacre&diff=5970Aqrab Massacre2013-08-14T20:24:35Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: /* Location */</p>
<hr />
<div>This alleged mass-killing occurred on December 11, 2012 in Aqrab, Hama province, Syria - about two miles north of Al-Houla, site of [[the Houla massacre]]. In the first anti-government activist reports, 125-150 civilians - men women and children, primarily or totally of the Alawite religious minority shared by President Assad - had been blown up. It was done by government forces and "[[Shabiha]]" (Alawite militia), who had been holding some 200+ Aqrab Alawites captive. That initial story has been seriously challenged and appears completely untrue, and the puzzle of what then did happened has been left unsolved. As many as 233 "enemies of God" (as rebels often call Alawites) seemingly disappeared, and the only people who really know what happened to them are the ones telling false stories about it . <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab witness conflict.png|right|400px]]Absent any proof of what happened, we are left with two sets of witnesses with irreconcilably different stories, visualized here. Left: a teenage Alawite survivor in rebel care blames his Shabiha captors ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3St4ux50PY video link]) Right: an alleged escapee, Madlyan Hosin, tells UK Channel 4 News how it was instead '''''the rebels''' that had held her and hundreds of other Alawites hostage.'' <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciua_3Rin4I video])</ref><br />
<br />
Note: The following page is a bit too dense with info, and it doesn't even have all our findings worked in yet. Over time, it will be expanded somewhat as well as streamlined for readability. Those hungry for more information yet can see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre|the discussion page]], those hungry for less can just skim the page below. Also there is a decent summary of the case, Channel 4's important video dispatch, and a record of agitation to increase its profile, [http://ciwclibya.org/syria/aqrabmassacre.html publicized at the Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya (and Syria) website]. <br />
<br />
== Location ==<br />
[[File:Aqrab map 2.png|right|240px]]Aqrab, Google-translating either "Scorpion" or "Sundial," is/was a mixed Sunni and Alawite city of about 11,000 inhabitants. It is located ([http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Aqrab,+Syria&hl=en&ll=34.937734,36.458817&spn=0.136221,0.296288&sll=34.937778,36.458611&sspn=0.017028,0.037036&t=h&hnear=Aqrab,+Masyaf,+Hama+Governorate,+Syria&z=12 here] on Google Maps) in Hama province, even though rebel-controlled Al-Houla, only two miles to the south, is in Homs province. As shown on the map here, the line between provinces seems to run just north of the three towns of Houla (with the massacre there happening in the southernmost [[Taldou]]). <br />
<br />
The incident is said to have occurred in Aqrab, an Alawite village. But it's more a mid-sized town, with some reports giving it a majority Sunni population. For example, after Channel 4's Alex Thomson traveled to the town (as he earlier traveled to Taldou), he described "a low-rise, densely packed town of 9,000 Sunni and 2,000 Alawites," with the report specifying the stricken Alawite district was in the west of town. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> 11,000 seems reasonable population for a city that size on the map (Taldou's population was once similar). <br />
<br />
An Arabic news report from the area spoke to locals and heard how after escaping they fled to nearby " التاعونة " ("al-Ta'ounah"). <ref name="AKT">[http://www.alkhabar-ts.com/index.php?page=view_news&id=0f575cff9f35053fd5b9194ce0d51c8fe714f29cd5ef825a51f66b2704ffd80f#ixzz2EtQlotd7 عقرب .. الناجون من الموت يروون لتلفزيون الخبر حكاية موتهم] Al-Khabar Tele Site, December 13, 2012</ref> A town of that name has a pin on Google Maps, right [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=التاعونة,+Syria&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=34.934145,36.432381&spn=0.034057,0.074072&t=h&hnear=التاعونة،+Masyaf,+Hama+Governorate,+Syria&z=14&iwloc=A here]. As the report says, it's about one kilometer away, nearest to the western (Alawite) district of Aqrab. Alex Thomson reported for Channel 4 from there, pronouncing it Towna; its eastern fringe was as close as he could get to Aqrab. <ref name="AT2" /> Lebanese Al-Mayadeen also had a crew meeting escapees there, with the town unnamed but matches with common sense and some of the people Channel 4 filmed. <ref name="MV" /> <br />
<br />
=== Akrad Ibrahim ===<br />
However, some sources suggest the events, in whole or in part, may have transpired in a smaller, presumably Alawite village a few kilometers north. One way or another, it's worth placing on the map above. Cuban news agency Prensa Latina, for example, reported that the events occurred "''near'' the Syrian town of Akrab," in a place called Akrab Ibrahim. <ref name="PL">[http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=799801&Itemid=1 Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town], Prensa Latina, published Dec 12, 2012</ref> Akrad Ibrahim (أكراد ابراهي) is a small village around five kilometers north of Aqrab up the mountains ([http://wikimapia.org/20968348/en/Akrad-Ibrahim location on wikimapia]). It has one dominant building which looks very much like the typical schools every village in the region has. "Akrad" means "Kurdish" when auto-translated into English. There are some other clues and related developments and rumors, a Kurdish link, and a dead sheikh, that tie this village into events in other ways that are discussed below. <br />
<br />
Based on eyewitness testimonies, Presna Latina reported "there are also 19 Sunni Kurdish civilians among the victims." <ref name="PL">[http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=799801&Itemid=1 Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town], Prensa Latina, published Dec 12, 2012</ref> This place is mentioned in some other reports but mostly described as neighborhood in Aqrab, not as a separate village. Searching for the Arabic name led to announcements on facebook (Dec 9) and a Qatari forum (Dec 10) talking about gangs looting and abducting people in this village which is described as majority Sunni with a Kurdish minority (hence the name), while the villages further up the mountains are described as Alawite.<ref name="AIP">Announcements in Arabic on [https://www.facebook.com/Hama.Coordinators.Union/posts/562481687111724 facebook] and webforum [http://www.qatarshares.com/vb/showpost.php?p=8606067&postcount=12421 Qatarshares], Dec 9/10, 2012</ref> <br />
<br />
Given the many possible narratives and the problematic auto-translation from Arabic, it is hard to make sense of the events they describe, but both talk about a large family named Najjar who either was abducted or did the abducting, either by Alawites or are Alawites themselves. The announcements call on the readers to inform news media and come to help to prevent a massacre that is somehow expected. A Sheikh Ali in Aqrab is said to be able to confirm events. (As we'll see [[Aqrab Massacre#The Ill-Fated Delegation|below]], Sheikh Ali is dead). <br />
<br />
Regardless of the details described here, there was definitely something building up in this village and it seems like the confusion about this topic stems from the fact that two events are merged into one - possible fighting and shelling and hostage negotiations in Aqrab down in the valley and a massacre or tragic event of sorts happening in the school building in Akrad Ibrahim a couple of kilometers away and up the hills.<br />
<br />
== First Reports: A Missile Massacre ==<br />
=== Initial Opposition Reports ===<br />
The Syrian opposition Local Coordination Committees gave their tally of the dead for December 11 - 165 dead nationwide, but "the number of martyrs is able to increase as the number of martyrs in Aqrab Massacre is still unknown yet" <ref name="LC11">[http://www.lccsyria.org/10636 Syria Today 11-12-2012]. Local Coordination Committees, Posted by abeer on December 11th, 2012</ref> This "Aqrab massacre" is not explained. No 125-150 number is included in the list. Their [http://www.lccsyria.org/10644 summary of the following day] didn't help, making no mention of Aqrab. There is no LCC accounting yet, and this is leading some to suspect there really was no regime massacre, that perhaps the rebels were just making up wild (and sort of self-incriminating) stories. For example, the analysts at the site Enduring America pointed to "notable omissions," specifying the government's apparent denial and that "the opposition Local Coordination Committees, a prominent source for claims on casualties, never reported a mass killing from Aqrab." <ref name="EA1">[http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/13/syria-analysis-was-there-a-massacre-in-aqrab-on-tuesday.html Syria Analysis: Was There a "Massacre" in Aqrab on Tuesday?] Enduring America, December 13, 2012</ref> <br />
<br />
The [[Syrian Observatory for Human Rights]] had better coverage this time, but confusing - they heard different versions, at least some of which had to be incorrect:<br />
:''different stories have emerged as to what caused the death and injury of 125-150 civilians, almost all from an Alawite background, in the town of Aqrab as a result of a series of explosions and gunfire. The town is in the southern neighbourhood of Hama and it is near the town of Houla, which witnessed a massacre on the 25th of May''<br />
<br />
:''The first narrative claims that there were 10 pro-regime gunmen who were barricaded in residential buildings with 150 civilians (Alawites also). A delegation was sent to the buildings, made up of 2 Sheikhs and 1 retired officer from the town, in order to negotiate the moving of Alawite civilians out of the building. the delegation was not allowed to leave. Clashes then took place between the pro-regime gunmen and rebel fighters from the neighbouring Houla town, explosions then took place which led to the civilian casualties. 2 rebels were also reported to have killed, also reports that the 3 person delegation was killed, and the head of the pro-regime militia.''<br />
<br />
:''The second narrative is that a series of explosions went off by the buildings inhabited by Syrian Alawites civilians in the town.''<br />
<br />
:''The third narrative is that pro-regime militiamen held Alawite civilians captive in the buildings, and that the rebels attempted to free the civilians, causing several explosions which led to the death of the 125-150 civilians.''<br />
<br />
:''The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights urges the UN to form an independent investigation committee, which include to examine what occurred in the town of Aqrab in order to bring all those responsible for this crime to justice'' <ref name="SOAM">[http://syriahr.com/en/index.php?option=com_news&nid=477&Itemid=2&task=displaynews#.UMhtukYSys0 Conflicting stories regarding the nature of the civilian massacre in Aqrab] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, December 11, 2012</ref><br />
This assemblage is strange, confusing and not entirely flattering to the rebel side. It was, however, widely cited in subsequent media reports, and frequently taken as reason to wonder a bit more than usual just what happened.<br />
<br />
=== Reuters and the Rest ===<br />
Relying mostly on these reports, the confused one and the silent one, many media outlets tried to make immediate sense of the events in reports mostly of December 11 and 12. Reuters managed to file a report on the issue the evening on the 11th, reporting "up to 200 members of President Bashar al-Assad's Alawite minority were injured or killed in an attack on their central Syrian village on Tuesday, activists said." The report, by Erika Solomon and Mariam Karouny, passed on greater than usual skepticism for a mainstream news outlet. They cited a boy survivor who, on rebel video, "gave a similar account" to a rebel fighter they spoke with -a story blaming Shabiha and absolving rebels. But the report did mention the possibility people were hiding in fear of rebel attacks and, more importantly, they noted "'''It was not clear whether the boy was speaking freely'''." <ref name="RE1">[Reuters: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8AJ1FK20121211 Syrian Alawite village attacked, rebels fight around capital]By Erika Solomon and Mariam Karouny, Reuters, December 11, 2012, 5:06pm EST</ref><br />
<br />
A variant report heard the following non-confidence-instilling explanation:<br />
:''A rebel who spoke to Reuters by telephone said fighters had clashed with the army in Aqrab for four days. Rebels had surrounded one building and accused the Shabbiha of using residents hiding there as human shields. “There were 200 people inside and we called on the residents to leave, but the Shabbiha held some women and children by gunpoint. Eventually talks fell apart and the government shelled the building,” said the rebel, who called himself Maysar.''<ref name="RE2">[http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/syria-crisis-alawites-idINDEE8BA0EC20121211 Up to 200 hurt in attack on Syrian Alawite village - activists]Reuters via Daily Star (Lebanon), Dec. 12, 2012, 3:28 AM</ref><br />
<br />
The Telegraph, in contrast, focused on the SOHR's different versions and latched onto the multiple explosions one:<br />
:''125 civilians had been killed or hurt by a string of bomb attacks. Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman later clarified that an unknown number of the victims were in fact fighters. "Between 125 and 150 people were killed or hurt by gunshots and explosions in the village of Aqrab," Mr Abdel Rahman told AFP.'' <ref name="TE1">[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9738688/Syria-explosions-kill-scores-in-Alawite-villages.html Syria: explosions kill scores in Alawite villages] The Telegraph, December 11, 2012 11:41PM GMT</ref><br />
<br />
The BBC and most others would go with what the survivors said on rebel videos. The BBC's first report mentioned the confused SOHR versions, but also cited the same Alawite boy and rebel fighters, and gave a range of death tolls topping out at "as many as 300." <ref name="BC1" /> This report is covered in more detail below.<br />
<br />
=== Two Flawed British Reports: BBC vs. Channel 4 ===<br />
The majority of journalists covering this - and other Syrian incidents - claim that activist reports cannot be confirmed or denied by on-site investigation. For example, consider the BBC's first and fairly detailed report of December 12. It said "it is impossible to verify this complex narrative," and noted "there has been no word at all so far from the government, which is accused of killing its own supporters in order to blame the rebels." <ref name="BC1">[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20691206 'Alawite civilians killed' in Syria village] BBC News. 12 December 2012 Last updated at 03:22 ET</ref> The "complex narrative" the report passed on, from rebel and activist sources, seems patched together and rather confusing. <br />
:''Activists said the [Shabiha] militia-controlled building was being besieged by the rebel Free Syrian Army (FSA). The Shabiha, who are almost entirely Alawite, were using the civilians as human shields, according to the activists. They said village elders were sent to negotiate a release of the hostages and surrender of the militiamen. But the elders were seized and killed, the militia threw grenades at hostages who were trying to run away, and then blew the building up as '''they themselves escaped''', the activists claimed.''<br />
:[...]<br />
:''The activists' account even said that government forces later fired rockets at '''and''' bombed the building with aircraft, killing '''more than 200 women and children''' trapped there, our correspondent adds.'' <br />
<br />
So the rebels besieged and surrounded the building, until they learned of a huge number of human shields held there. Negotiators, with unstated terms, were killed by the Shabiha, who then killed their captives with grenades and/or blew up the building somehow, trapping nearly everyone inside/beneath rubble, and then slipped away through the rebel cordon never to be seen again. The building explosion wasn't enough to kill their now-unneeded human shields, so the government itself finished the job with both artillery and air strikes. They did this to frame the rebels, who were there the whole time but apparently never fired a shot and remained stunned on the sidelines as these events cascaded around them. <br />
<br />
As far as we know, no one on the opposition side managed to video-record a single one of these events. <br />
<br />
In contrast to the BBC's remotely assembled jumble of a story, consider Channel 4's chief correspondent Alex Thomson, who actually went to Aqrab and spoke to locals that were not steered to him by opposition activists. Thomson posted a sneak preview of the report on his blog on the 13th, explaining what he was hearing; the massacre occurred after a sequence of events starting when "rebels reportedly visited from the al-Houla area a few days ago. According to Aqrab villagers they kidnapped the son of the local Alawite religious leader." From there it escalated:<br />
:''The Aqrabi villagers say they mounted a counter-attack to try and free the hostage. There were armed clashes and injuries.''<br />
<br />
:''The villagers say the rebels then came back from al-Houla and took over the place. Most people fled but '''around 260''' were corralled into one section of the village and it is there that they were '''hit by missiles fired by rebels.''''' <ref name="AT1">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/badlands-syrias-vicious-civil-war/3408 The badlands of Syria’s vicious civil war]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 12, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
The contrast with the vast majority of Western reports could hardly be more stark, and Thomson had the edge in that he actually went there. However, it would appear this narrative was also not correct, and was contradicted by the following day's report citing three named and shown alleged escapees. They still blame hostile rebel fighters from Al-Houla for kidnapping hundreds of Alawites, and for anything awful that did happen. However, blowing up any number of people, with missiles or otherwise, was not part of it, as far as they knew. And further, the building they described being held in was still totally intact when Channel 4's crew filmed it. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> (see "It Didn't Happen?" immediately below.)<br />
<br />
== The Real Story ==<br />
=== It Didn't Happen? ===<br />
From the start, there were signs that pointed to no such massacre occurring. These started less-than-compelling to Western minds; there was first no official statement from the Syrian government, and then an apparent denial from military sources in the region. The statement ran by SANA was strangely terse and unelaborated; in its entirety, it said: "A military source in the Central Region on Wednesday denied news claiming that a massacre took place in Aqrab in Hama countryside." <ref name="SANA1">[http://www.sana-syria.com/eng/21/2012/12/12/456830.htm SANA report]Dec.12, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
One Alawite resident of the area told Reuters the problems began with the rebel assault of December 2, but it didn't end how rebels said. "We don't believe there was a massacre but we think there are a number of hostages being held. Clashes began when rebels started shelling the shabbiha checkpoint," he said by Skype. "But now the phone lines seem to be down in Aqrab so that's all we know." <ref name="RE1" /><br />
<br />
As widely noted, there have been '''no videos''' posted of 125-150 massacre victims - or any number - to confirm the stories. That in itself would make the case highly unusual for a Syrian massacre, but then this was already an unusual case. There are no previous alleged massacres of so many Alawites in one place surrounded by rebel fighters to compare this to. No bodies to show is the most straightforward - but not only - reason no bodies would be shown. Fear that the propaganda coupof more dead baby images would backfire against the opposition this time is another possible reason.<br />
<br />
The lack of video and official denial were cited by the analysts at Enduring America, along with "notable omissions" like how the Local Coordination Committees "never reported a mass killing from Aqrab." (at least not officially - someone from the LCC reportedly did partially confirm it, as EA noted [http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/11/syria-live-coverage-so-are-al-qaeda-terrorists-winning-the-c.html#2032 here]) Between the three, the collective doubt led to a possibility worth "pursuing" in which "the town was bombed, and the largely-Alawite population has split into pro- and anti-regime groups. There has been fighting. Perhaps 6 to 10 people were killed by the shelling. There are further concerns that other residents, held hostage or cut off from escape, were slain." <ref name="EA1"/> That's doesn't cover everything even if stretched taut. But it's an admirable effort, considering the vast gulf between the two (main) narratives and the unknown number of unknowns between them. That was acknowledged with a later post after learning of Channel 4's version (see immediately below). <br />
<br />
:''As of now, it's not possible to reconcile the two narratives. Both rely on eyewitness testimony. Nobody, it seems, has actually witnessed a "massacre," however, and there is no video of the bodies uploaded by either side. The reality is that all we know for sure is that there are two conflicting and unsubstantiated claims. We also know that there has been intense bombing of the village, at least since the FSA moved into the village on December 2-3rd.''<ref name="EA3">[http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/12/14/syria-live-coverage-protests-bombs-and-a-victory-that-cannot.html#1439 Syria Live Coverage: Protests, Bombs, and A Victory That "Cannot Be Ruled Out"]James Miller, Enduring America, Friday, December 14, 2012 at 6:00</ref> <br />
<br />
=== Channel 4's Report ===<br />
The first major and strongest case by far for a fabricated event came from Alex Thomson’s second dispatch, with a video report for Channel 4 News. On Wednesday Thomson himself and his team travelled from Hama to Aqrab where they interviewed a number of witnesses. This was "the first independently observed story of Aqrab from the first outside journalist to reach this area," with the three witnesses interviewed independently, and confirming each other on all the major details of what happened. <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref> He says they were supported as well by "dozens" of others he spoke to taking refuge in Al-Taonah, and who wanted to stay off-camera. <br />
<br />
According to the displaced persons, on Dec 2 around five cars full of bearded men with non-local accents came from the direction of Al-Houla. <br />
<br />
:''They all insist, as did everybody else we met, that the rebels from the Free Syrian Army (FSA) corralled around 500 Alawite civilians in a large red-coloured two-storey house belonging to a prominent businessman called Abu Ismail. They then say they were held – around 500 men, women and children – in this building until the early hours of Tuesday 11 December. Nine days. ''<br />
:[...] <br />
:''They all agree matters came to a head when a delegation of villagers was sent on Monday at 4pm to break the deadlock. [...] It appears negotiations ran between these elders and the rebels for around four hours, ending in deadlock at around eight o’clock on Monday night. At that point, shooting broke out, '''the rebels firing through the windows and shouting that they had booby-trapped the building.''''' <br />
<br />
:''The eye-witnesses say that the shooting died down at about midnight, after which a deal was done. In screaming night-time chaos and intermittent shooting, three vehicles took around 70 of the prisoners to safety in the nearest village [Al-Taonah] a mile away. However, it seems a fourth vehicle took a number of prisoners to al-Houla, where two – an unidentified woman and a boy – were treated for injuries in a rebel field hospital. The woman and boy blamed pro-government militia for taking the prisoners, according to rebel websites, and that is the version of events which has gone around the world. Until now.'' <br />
:[...] <br />
:''Curiously, rebel websites say the building containing the prisoners who remained, was completely destroyed by government artillery and air strikes on Tuesday. However, '''we saw and filmed the building''' in which eye-witnesses said they were imprisoned, '''and it appears intact''' – as does the rest of the village.'' (see below) <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
The thrice-bombed house, as filmed on the 13th, is shown and discussed below. Evidence of hundreds of dead was not found. Like others, Thomson pointed to the lack of video evidence on Youtube, which made little sense given the rebel narrative of a massive government crime that occurred, after all, in an area they controlled and could film at leisure. And further, he points out how the rebels never mentioned these hundreds of prisoners held by Shabiha during the nine-day standoff, even as they released videos and dispatches about their conquest and patrolling of the town, ignoring a "propaganda coup" for over a week until after its alleged culmination.<br />
<br />
=== The Hostage House and Smoke Clues ===<br />
[[File:Aqrab Hostage House enhanced.png|thumb|Witnesses say they were held hostage in this red house in Aqrab]]The house Thomson had pointed out as the site of the Alawites' imprisonment, inset at right, is not hard to spot. It's large and red, at least on the visible upper floor. By lining up the hill side of town and all three minarets, it seems the crew filmed from southwest of town, near [http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.932973,36.437909&spn=0.001082,0.002411&t=k&z=19 this building] on the outskirts of Altaonh. The house in question is likely the one [http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.937778,36.45512&spn=0.001082,0.002411&t=k&z=19 dead-centered here on Google maps]. (see [[Aqrab Massacre#Locations Map|below]] for visual explanation.) This is in northwest center of town, possibly in the western, Alawite district or in the Sunni area but near the "front line" (we don't know where the line was). <br />
<br />
Thomson heard from officials in Hama that that prisoners are still presumed to be held in the house, and negotiations were still ongoing. He also heard that the hostage house was owned by "a prominent businessman called Abu Ismail." <ref name="AT2" /> This could be a financier and enabler of the hostage-takers, a person of interest, or someone else, even an ally of the Alawites or one of them. Channel 4's first report said upon rebel attack "most people fled but around 260 were corralled into one section of the village." <ref name="AT1" /> Syria Politik in fact reported the targeted people had first herded themselves here: "gunmen attacked the homes of Alawites who were '''gathered in a specific area to facilitate their protection''' and for fear of being kidnapped, and gunmen surrounded the place," apparently forced them to concentrate further into just one building, "and asked the men to get out of the building..." <ref name="SPK">[http://www.syria-politic.com/ar/Default.aspx?subject=1200#.Ubz6LUZo098 سيريا بوليتيك ينشر القصة الكاملة لمجزرة عقرب..مقتل وخطف 500 علوي وسني] ("Syria Politik published the full story of the massacre of Aqrab - killing and kidnapping of 500 Alawi and Sunni) Syria Politik, December 15, 2012</ref><br />
<br />
<br />
While the building is clearly intact - despite the alleged warplane bombing, etc. - there might be smoke rolling out or up the vertical gap; soot stains from the lower window can be seen at right, as well as above the windows of the smaller attached/foreground building (likely the building at the nearest SW corner of the same block). No smoke seems to be escaping from the upper floor windows, which seem to be blacked-out and perhaps sealed airtight. This is important, as one of the witnesses said last she saw, '''"they’re burning tires inside the building to suffocate [the prisoners]."''' <ref name="MV" /> (see below for more on conditions in the Abu Ismail house). No other witnesses to our knowledge specify this abuse, but some other video clues support the significant involvement of smoke. One boy survivor documented in Al-Houla has soot-stained hands, <ref name="RV2">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7l3jyovsAw Title trans: 12/11/2012 Alawite sect children in Hula] Youtube video, Published by لحولة الابية on December 11, 2012</ref>, and an older woman has smoke-stained nostrils and hands. <ref name="RV7">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4DBBjRi7qY Title trans: Testimony of a woman survivor of the massacre of scorpion 12/11/2012]Youtube video, published by SyriaJusticeChannel on December 11, 2012</ref><br />
;Smoke-stained Aqrab victims/survivors on rebel video<br />
<center><gallery><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 1.png|older woman, stained nostrils <ref name="RV7" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 2.png|same, sooty hands<br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 3.png|Teenage boy survivor, badly smoke-stained hands, possibly burned as well.<ref name="RV2" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 4.png|Possibly the same boy (was shot a few times in the backs of his legs)<ref name="RV3">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdl6zFNd8I الحولة طفل صغير جدا من الطائفة العلوية11/12/2012]Youtube video, Dec. 11, 2012</ref><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 5.png|A different teenage boy survivor, nose and face stained (shot in the back, apparently)<ref name="RV2" /><br />
File:Aqrab smoke stains 6.png|That same boy<br />
File:Aqrab victim Amal.png|Possibly related: dead 6-year-old girl in Houla - soot-stained face, head sliced open (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#A Dead Child?|here]]). <br />
</gallery></center><br />
<br />
=== The Jubeili Family ===<br />
Forthcoming. One important aspect is the prevalence of one extended Alawi family, the Jubeilis (different spellings), who reportedly comprised the majority of those held - perhaps 300 total. At least two Jubeili men were also reportedly among the small group of Shabiha responsible for everything in initial rebel reports. Clearly the true story behind this alleged connection is worth pursuing. See some details at [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#The Jubeili Family Angle|talk page, The Jubeili Family Angle]]<br />
<br />
=== The Captives, In Detail ===<br />
More accurately, this section is for those who escaped their captivity and can speak about it. The alleged Alawite prisoners are still most famously seen as the Shabiha-blaming rebel-story-supporters in rebel-held Al-Houla. These few will be studied here in more detail in time. But besides those few, controlled glimpses, is a broader body of people supporting the opposite narrative. And then there are those, however many, who've been killed, and the rest, however many, that remain alive in captivity and great danger. The best information comes from the large number who made it out and can talk away from the rebels.<br />
<br />
==== Refugees on Their Ordeal ====<br />
A report from Lebanese Al-Mayadeen TV is of great interest here. It can be seen in the second part of this video, starting at 6:30. The English subtitles tell us Al-Mayadeen’s crew couldn’t enter the town itself due to the fighting, but visited neighboring villages where refugees reside. In a large building, they film at least three dozen people of all ages, getting along as they can. “Most of them fled Aqrab after the town’s siege.” <ref name="MV">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVZGIuXLHIs Al-Mayadeen Report] Published on Dec 15, 2012</ref> These seem to be primarily those who Thomson’s first witness said ran away before the captive-taking, although some seem to have been held in the prison. <br />
<br />
An old man told Al-Mayadeen “the armed gangs attacked them, from Al-Houla and Aqrab. … They stole the peoples’ homes then torched them. … some of them left. As for the other ones, where they took them, we don’t know. … this is our problem. They have ALL sorts of weapons.” <ref name="MV" /> Elderly woman Hayat Youseh recalled for Channel 4 "they wore black ski masks. They took our phones and keys. They forced us out of our homes and set fire to them. I hope God burns them like they burned our homes." <ref name="AT2" /> Interestingly, this is almost an exact quote from a different, younger woman displaced during the nearby [[the Houla massacre|Houla Massacre]] (see video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7n0U5hvWQ here], 6 :14). <br />
<br />
One chubby boy airs no larger complaint to Al-Mayadeen than a lack of school and reading. But one woman mentioned the lack of food: “There are 25 babies and their mothers are under siege. Each baby is being fed a single olive each day.” Another, rather upset woman, painted a grim picture of the prison she apparently spent some time in: <br />
:''“we were collecting rainwater with a vessel to let our children drink, many of them still nursing, I swear. Nothing is reaching the town. There’s no food, nothing. '''They’re burning tires inside the building to suffocate them.''' '''There’s no water, no food. Perhaps 3/4 of the people there are already dead by now.'''”''<ref name="MV" /><br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab alkhabar 1.png|left|320px]]<br />
Syrian private TV Channel Al-Khabar Tele Site ran a detailed report, apparently video originally, that spoke to a large number of those escaped and released. An Arabic text transcript gave less-than-ideal results in Google translate (used below). <ref name="AKT" /> Some of the interviewees are shown in the stills they provided, one reproduced at left. The two women in the left and center can be seen together in Channel 4's video report at 3:35, meaning the two crews met the same group of refugees. That group also includes "a little girl crying in the dark corner," five years old, who "lost three brothers, her mother and father, and tasted the taste of 10 days of bitter custody." Escapee Um Ammar, an elderly woman of about 70 (she does not know), tears filling her eyes, mentions "my granddaughter's baby" and olive bread, then falls silent. <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
By the story Alkhabar heard, the attack started after dawn prayers (presumably on the 2nd) with announced threats against the Al Jubeili family, a loyalist clan of 300 members. "Gunmen dragged those three hundred to one house which they said had IEDs planted around it. The rebels may have slaughtered the Jubeilis’ livestock, and they gave them little food or water. There was an effort to separate some people, but families decided to "die together." A young man "tells how they hear sounds of clashes and shootings during the last four days from the days of their detention," and on "the tenth night," a rebel he felt was drunk fired in through the window, killing another youth and hitting a woman in the back. After this shooting, "Gunmen opened the door; to calm the chaos and the sounds of screaming and anger, they decided to release a number of detainees." They "began to bring the number of women and children," but everyone rushed the doors and, apparently, some managed to escape at that time. One woman described running with her children in the dark, legs bleeding, hunger driving them to "Altaonh," where they were interviewed. <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
==== Numbers: Captured, Released, Unaccounted For ====<br />
Both Channel 4 and Al-Mayadeen heard that those who didn’t escape Aqrab in time numbered around 500 Alawites, who were all taken hostage. The rebel captors entered negotiations with the authorities to exchange four of their arrested leaders for the civilians, on generous terms. "There was an agreement to release civilians in four batches ... One hundred civilians for each leader." The fourth leader would apparently set free the last 200. "'''Three hundred civilians have already been released'''," the report said, "but the unexpected happened when '''the remaining 200 disappeared'''.” <ref name="MV" /> After getting their three top choices freed, perhaps they decided #4 was expendable, kept his prisoners, and … we don’t know what they did with them. The initial reports said it was around 200 people, maybe 260 or 300, in the house when it was blown up by everyone but the rebels. The house remains, but there still has been no revised explanation. <br />
<br />
Al Khabar heard similar: <br />
:''"[there remain] about 200 martyrs missing and unaccounted for, after the fall of the shells on the house prison, after clashes between al-Faruq in control of the entire region and the army. It is not exactly known by the escapees what happened afterwards to their remaining family members, but they know very well that this is not the Syria in which they lived their lives safely ..."'' <ref name="AKT" /><br />
<br />
Cuban news agency Prensa Latina heard in contrast that rebel "mercenaries" initially "kidnapped about 300 people," and when given an ultimatum by the SAA to release the prisoners and surrender, instead killed 233, including 88 children and women. <ref name="PL" /> It should be noted this would leave the clear majority of those killed - about 145 - men, which is partially consistent with the alleged rebel intent - to kill the men. <br />
<br />
Whether this variant report is based on a guess or on information the others lack remains unclear, but most sources are firmly agnostic, if not hopeful, on the fate of the remainder. Channel 4's Thomson, for one, said officials in Hama "believe hundreds are still held." <ref name="AT2" /><br />
<br />
==== Taken to Al-Houla ====<br />
Of those who were released, Thomson only heard about one batch of 70, driven out in four trucks. Three arrived in Altaonh, but "A fourth truck left, but never made it to the village. That truck went to rebel-heldal-Houla instead and there, an unnamed woman and boy, apparently speaking under duress, told rebels that pro-government militias, not rebels, took them prisoner." <ref name="AT2" /><br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Rescue baby.png|thumb|A young survivor of the alleged Aqrab Massacre]]We get so far several glimpses of the prisoners who remained in rebel hands, mostly in Al-Houla, being sewn-up or giving testimony. There is only one brief view known of "rescued" Alawites perhaps just arriving in Houla, not yet made to speak. This was posted by activist Jalal Suleiman of the [[Houla Media Office]] only on December 14, three days after their more useful videos went up, and just as Channel 4 was raising questions about the lack of rebel videos of the dead. This too failed to show any number of bodies, but rather, as translated, showed "Aqrab scenes shown for the first time during the rescue civilians." <ref name="JS1">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxAKls_RQ6w عقرب مشاهد تعرض لاول مرة اثناء انقاذ المدنيين] Youtube video, Published December 14, 2012 by جلال سليمان</ref> This shows two wounded victims: the toddler at right, a fighter showing off the torn-up sole of the child's right foot. An old woman in a dusty, torn-up black hijab is then seen. She's been badly injured in the head, left eye puffped up and bloody, left side of her shawl soaked in blood. Her face is a horrifying mask of human misery. She seems to protest something, but the armed men gently push her along the way to wherever she's being taken.<br />
<br />
Hassan Hassan described this scene for The National (UAE):<br />
:''In one video recorded almost immediately after the massacre, another old woman and a young girl are taken by rebels to a field hospital. Although the rebels keep reassuring them, the old woman continues to plead with a bearded man to rescue her. The woman then seems scared as rebels shout "Allahu Akbar", God is great.'' <ref name="HHN" /><br />
<br />
=== The Ill-Fated Delegation ===<br />
One aspect of the Aqrab saga that’s strangely consistent across all sources is a group of 6-9 local elites, including three Sunni clerics, the town’s mayor, and two retired military officers (for more details correlating reports and names, see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#The Delegation (in detail)|Talk: The Delegation]]). By reports, these tried to negotiate some solution to the impasse. At least some and perhaps all of them apparently died in the process. <br />
<br />
Exactly what happened and why is greatly contested and shrouded in mystery. The BBC heard from activists that "village elders were sent to negotiate a release of the hostages and surrender of the militiamen." <ref name="BC1" /> Hassan Hassan referred to "mediation from two Sunni religious leaders from Aqrab" that convinced the imprisoned Alawites they woulldn't be harmed, and some releases were agreed to. <ref name="HHN">[http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/story-of-a-massacre-tells-of-the-alawites-caught-in-the-middle Story of a massacre tells of the Alawites caught in the middle] Hassan Hassan, The National (UAE), Dec 17, 2012</ref> This agreement the “Shabiha” then allegedly rejected. Alex Thomson noted “(The witnesses) all agree matters came to a head when a delegation of villagers was sent on Monday at 4 pm to break the deadlock.” <ref name="AT2">[http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/happened-syrian-town-aqrab/3426 Was there a massacre in the Syrian town of Aqrab?]Alex Thomson, Alex Thomson's view, Dec. 14, 2012 ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciua_3Rin4I video])</ref><br />
<br />
What they were urging exactly isn’t clear. Only a promise of no harm is mentioned on the rebel end, and no one mentions the delegates making any demands on the rebels. Presna Latina heard that among the dead were "representatives of Akrab town that acted as mediators in favour of those held in prison before the mercenaries.'' <ref name="PL" /> Otherwise, all seem to be local Sunnis who apparently met the rebels’ approval as mediators and were allowed in, perhaps sent to talk sense into the "Shabiha" to surrender and let their "prisoners" go. In the "chains of love" possibility (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Chains of Love?|talk page]] for now), they’d be urging the men to surrender to execution, and the women and children to unknown conditions in rebel captivity. Hassan for The National noted as one of the good signs we can find in Umm Ayham's story that the Sunni villagers hadn't attacked the Alawites earlier in the conflict, and even when they did, "the mediators," who tried to help free the people, "were also from the village,” and in fact were even Sunnis. <ref name="HHN" /> Whether they were really trying to help the desperate Alawites or to help grease along their destruction isn’t entirely clear. <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Sheikh Ali.png|thumb|left|Sheikh Ali, deceased]]The one visual confirmation we have of a death in the delegation is a video purporting to prove the “martyrdom of Sheikh Ali Omar” (as Google translated), via Houla activist hassan husein (his only video uploaded December 11 – the 10/11 date is apparently a typo). <ref name="SAV>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3rqDmyyvbA الحولة - عقرب 11-10-2012 استشهاد الشيخ علي العمر.] Youtube video, published December 11, 2012 by hassan699721</ref> The man shown (at left here) is middle-aged, in secular dress. He’s got blood coming from his nose and right ear, and a badly puffed-up black eye on the left. He was apparently beaten up, perhaps had his nose broken, and might have been shot somewhere in the head, or just beaten more.<br />
<br />
Rebels said the Shabiha killed the sheikh and perhaps the other members of the delegation. The BBC reported that "the elders were seized and killed," before "the militia threw grenades at hostages who were trying to run away, and then blew the building up as they themselves escaped, the activists claimed." <ref name="BC1" /> What might be the Tafas Coordination Committee reported on the 11th that Sunni clerics, including a Sheikh Ali, were sent to "negotiate with Shabiha the release of … ''175 women and girls''," but Shabiha leader Farzat Jubeili killed the clerics, apparently along with "154 girls and women of the Alawite sect." Further, Ismail (Jubeili) "detonated a bomb in the dignitaries." <ref name="TC">[https://www.facebook.com/TafasCoordination/posts/301479083302821 شبيحة عقرب يفجرون النساء والأطفال والجيش الحر يقوم بإنقاذ ما تبقى منهم "القصة كاملة"](Hbihh Scorpion blow up women and children and free the army to rescue the rest of them "full story") تنسيقية طفس الحرة (Coordinating Tafas free) December 11, 2012 6:54 PM</ref><br />
<br />
Alex Thomson spoke with officials in Hama negotiating for the prisoners’ release. He reported back these officials “believe," but don't have confirmation, that "the imam, and the mayor, and many others, have been killed." <ref name="AT2" /> The refugees in Taonah didn’t mention them being killed, but do specify it was they who decided to take the negotiators prisoner. As Thomson reported “When they arrived, the prisoners would not let them leave. As Ali (Al-Hosin) puts it: “Once they came into the house, we just said, ‘We all go together, men women and children – or we all die together.’” On video, Ali is translated saying "either we all go out together, including the sheikh and the mayor, or we all die together." <ref name="AT2" /> But that's not quite the way it turned out.<br />
<br />
With no clear and credible explanation offered, there are a few main possibilities for how these men might have died, each with its pros and cons with regard to the known evidence:<br />
* As stated, they were killed by the Shabiha captors, before the same killed all their wards and committed suicide/vanished. <br />
* The delegation saw the desperate plight of the prisoners and voluntarily stayed in solidarity with them, and were later killed by rebels in revenge for the embarrassment <br />
* The prisoners who admit taking them also killed them and didn’t mention that part. <br />
The first option is just what rebels allege and is seriously unlikely, given the other evidence now available. The second option is the most emotionally appealing. The third is perhaps the best explanation. Considering the mass of starving Alawite prisoners already fiercely resisting the rebel final solution for them, and a few well-fed Sunnis wading in urging them to give in, it’s quite possible the latter could get themselves shot or beaten down, depending what was handy (the prisoners could, theoretically, have smuggled in a few guns, which would help explain the stand-off situation).<br />
<br />
== Locations Map ==<br />
From video evidence, we can identify these relevant place in Aqrab: <br />
[[File:Aqrab Locations Map.png|center|700px]]<br />
<br />
* To the south/southeast (off-frame): Al-Houla<br />
* Lower right, the location a mutilated man named Ahmed Daoud was filmed, ostensibly on Dec. 10, slumped in a chair on the approach from al-Houla (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Ahmed Daoud|here]]).<br />
* To the southwest (off-frame): Al-Taonah, refuge for freed captives.<br />
* To the west (off frame): Baarin, like al-Houla, a rebel town with sectarian tensions against Aqrab's Alawi, possible source of some attackers.<br />
* Western Alawite district: boundaries unknown: housed about 2-3,000 of a town of 10-13,000. Easily hit from Baarin.<br />
* "HQ" means the local security headquarters attacked Dec. 2/3, as seen in many videos (see [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Context: December 2nd battle|here]]). It was apparently the station of the local Popular Committees ("Shabiha") and after, a rebel-held check-point guarding the entrance from the regional capitol Hama (eg, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VscBLDfWKs0 Dec. 6 video.]) <br />
* "Red Crescent" parked is not certain, but the best identifiable match for the intersection the Syrian Arab Red Crescent team was seen on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKpSx8qYSRY a video dated Dec. 10]. See also below, [[Aqrab Massacre#Red Crescent, Silent|section below]].) They would likely have come from Hama and already passed the main checkpoint. Possible route to see the hostages suggested with a "?" <br />
* Abu Ismael's hostage house: unclear if it's part of the Alawite area, but likely so. Yellow road section is just to to help clarify its location (and to suggest a more direct route for the Red Crescent). Location pinned down by Channel 4 video (filmed from the edge of Taonah), derivative panorama, and Filed of View study below.<br />
[[File:Aqrab FoV Study.png|center|700px]]<br />
<br />
== World Reaction ==<br />
=== An Alawite Awakening? ===<br />
A site called Free Halab, (Free Aleppo) posted an entry on Dec. 12 blaming the government and Shabiha: <br />
:''Some if not many have feared that the revolution would unleash massacres, ethnic cleaning and even genocide upon the Alawite population of Syria. ... This horrific crime, however, was not committed by revolutionaries, extremist or otherwise. This is the story of some of those women and children who survived the massacre perpetrated against hundreds of them by the savage and psychotic Shabbiha of al-Assad, as told by the survivors themselves and by activists documenting their testimonies. All of them are Alawites.''<br />
Cited: the same videos mentioned in other reports, and a text account the same effect. The entry continued:<br />
:''According to the testimonies, the purpose of this massacre was to frame the FSA. Juan Cole who is in Damascus, however, mentions that he has been going to all the regime’s propaganda channels and found that there was “not a single peep about it.” Perhaps it was only for the Alawites to know about, to fear for their fate if al-Assad falls, whether at the hands of the FSA or the regime. Like these poor people from Aqrab, '''the Alawite community of Syria has been taken hostage.'''''<ref name="FH">[http://freehalab.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/assads-shabbiha-massacre-alawite-women-and-children-in-aqrab-hama/Assad’s Shabbiha Massacre Alawite Women and Children in Aqrab, Hama] Free Halab, Dec. 12, 210</ref><br />
<br />
There was a vague suggestion that the Alawites of Aqrab had been trying to work hand-in-hand with the FSA to break the government's grip. A video of December 4 purports to show [http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fsa-and-the-alawites-at-al-hola-http/ FSA and the Alawites at Aqrab village]. Cluster bombs are shown, as rebel fighters speak of their time in the village. It's all in Arabic, so we can't tell if these are supposed to be Alawite FSA, FSA working with Alawites, FSA threatening to kill Alawites, or what. <br />
<br />
The new massacre, it was hoped, would caused more yet to wake up and reject the government and its crimes more fully. The Tafas Coordination Committee announced on the evening of the 11th (Google-translated from Arabic) cites opposition leader in Turkey Khaled Khoja saying the crimes at Aqrab were "part of the massacres committed by the Assad regime against the Syrian people, and that the massacre confirms that the Assad regime does not represent the Alawite sect."<ref name="TC" /> This message was consistent from the front lines as well. One rebel fighter seen on video "reassuring" a badly injured Alawi boy, told the boy and the camera in Arabic “Bashar does not represent the Alawite sect. The Syrian people are one.”<ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
A few early Twitter messages sought to spread this idea from the outset. [https://twitter.com/TaziMorocco/status/278626685807644672 Tazi Morocco] tweeted "#Aqrab Massacre: 10 pro regime gunmen held 150 alawite hostages, and killed them when #FSA tried to save them #Syria." [http://ufn.virtues.fi/crisistracker/story.php?storyid=11736351 NM Syria tweet]: "The Alawites in Aqrab oppose the regime and its crimes. Regime forces bombed and shelled Aqrab this morning. #Syria" - First posted 2012-12-11 19:21:46 by NMSyria. Response: "Today is a clear warning to Alawites, the regime will also hurt them to get what it wants. Awful things happening in Aqrab #Syria" - First posted 2012-12-11 19:31:36 by Rose Alhoms. <br />
<br />
The New York Times, under the headline "Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings," said the massacre details "remain unclear," but they reported "a shocking episode of Alawite-on-Alawite violence" when "attacks by Alawite militias on their own civilian populations have so far been unheard-of." <ref name="NYT1">[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/world/middleeast/alawite-massacre-in-syria.html?_r=0 Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings] By LIAM STACK and HANIA MOURTADA, New York Times, Published: December 12, 2012</ref> The exciting lessons to be drawn were there to exploit, and as the Times reported: <br />
:''Faiek al-Meer, a longtime antigovernment activist, wrote on Facebook that the Aqrab episode could be seen as a metaphor for the predicament facing the entire Alawite sect. Mr. Assad, he wrote, “will continue to fight to defend his seat and the interests of his clique even if has to use the Alawites as human shields to protect himself.”'' <ref name="NYT1" /><br />
<br />
The same day brought a more acute manifestation of the Alawite awakening narrative, from the leader of the National Coalition for Opposition Forces and the Syrian Revolution, Mouaz Alkhatib, speaking at the "Friends of Syria" conference in Marrakech, Morocco. On the day after the alleged massacre, just as it was hitting the world news circuit, he managed to exploit the event's most valuable property while apparently failing to mention or confirm it directly. As Reuters partially quoted him saying:<br />
:''"We send a direct message to the Alawite brethren. The Syria revolution is extending its hand to you, so extend your hand back and start civil disobedience against the regime because it repressed you like it repressed us."'' <ref name="DS1">[http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Dec-12/198218-syrian-opposition-leader-calls-on-alawites-to-rise-up.ashx#axzz2EfS24rQn Syrian opposition leader calls on Alawites to rise up]Daily Star (Lebanon) December 12, 2012 </ref><br />
Saudi paper Al-Sharq al-Awsat reported on Alkhatib's statements; a BBC Monitoring extract summarized: "Opposition calls on Alawites to resort to civil disobedience and considers 'Aqrab Massacre' a turning point" <ref name="SA1">[http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-312095632/syrian-opposition-urges-alawites.html Syrian opposition urges Alawites to change stand after Aqrab "massacre".]Al-Awsat, via BBC Monitoring, via accessmylibrary.com</ref><br />
<br />
As late as the 13th, Enduring America was following a theory of a massacre-free scenario that still involved some degree of Alawite uprising to explain the alleged, and exaggerated, intra-sect violence. In this attempt to make sense of it all, "the town was bombed, and the largely-Alawite population has split into pro- and anti-regime groups. There has been fighting,"a few deaths, and no massacre. <ref name="EA1"/> Then Channel 4's reports hit, and the calls went quiet; it didn't seem to be such an exciting "turning point" any longer.<br />
<br />
=== The News Spreads A Bit ===<br />
At least two Arabic-language video reports from the safe haven of Al-Taonah are known: Al-Khabar TeleSite (Syria)<ref name="AKT" /> and Al-Mayadeen (Lebanon) <ref name="MV" /> The details they heard and share are in line with Channel 4's report, and worked into the content above. Clearly, these reports have figured little into Western and opposition reports by which the world prefers to move. The following traces out the contours of how that world reacted to the ambiguity inserted by Channel 4's report as a lone anomaly with absolutely no further details available.<br />
<br />
Other Western media outlets were fairly slow to pick up Channel 4's important addition. The Los Angeles Times, for one, did include it in a Dec. 15 report as adding "mystery" to the case. <ref name="LA1">[http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-syrian-town-fate-20121215,0,6776757.story Mystery surrounds fate of Syrians held in town of Aqrab]Patrick J.McDonnel, The Los Angeles Times, Dec. 15, 2012</ref> The report by Patrick J. McDonnel cited the recent rebel destruction of a Shia mosque in the country's north, and said in part:<br />
:''Opposition videos circulated widely on the Internet suggest that pro-government militiamen known as shabiha were responsible for the killings in Aqrab. An unanswered question was why regime gunmen would kill Alawites presumably allied with the government.'' <br />
:''Britain’s Channel 4 News managed this week to reach the outskirts of Aqrab. Its version of events implicates the rebels.'' <br />
The details are then related in moderate detail.<br />
<br />
Over the following days, a few oft-cited rebel-supporting experts and artful media spinners spoke up, tacitly acknowledging that the initial rebel story in Aqrab was apparently a lie, and that at the very least the incident is troubling. But by and large, they have also managed to frame the mystery of the missing captives as all past-tense, somehow ambiguous in in its moral implications, and something too complex to ever be fully understood. (citations needed)<br />
<br />
=== Red Crescent, Silent ===<br />
Channel 4's report passed on that the Red Crescent, the Muslim version of the Red Cross, "gained access to the prisoners nine days into the standoff" and could clear up for good which side's forces held them by telling the world. "However, this is a dangerous place," he noted [[Mazraat al-Qubeir massacre#Investigators Obstructed and Shot At|with authority]], "and so far the Red Crescent have made no comment." <ref name="AT2" /> <br />
<br />
[[File:Aqrab Red Crescent 1.png|thumb|left|Red Crescent crew in Aqrab, perhaps to see the Alawites]]Supporting this somewhat is the lack of such a statement, despite a low-quality 30-second video posted December 10, showing a team from the Red Crescent, purportedly in Aqrab. <ref name="RCV">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKpSx8qYSRY الحولة عقرب منظمة الهلال الأحمر تزور البلدة] Trans: Hula Scorpion Red Crescent Organization visit town" Youtube video, published by Amr Faour, Dec. 10, 2012</ref> No mention is made of the purpose of their visit, but they're sitting in their parked ambulance, awaiting some clearance to move forward, ''something like'' nine days in (more like eight, at the most) to the quiet crisis. If they're speaking with the captors to arrange a visit, it must be remembered this is an opposition activist standing here filming them, and it seems to be their fighters standing at the windows. It's not certain which part of town this is filmed in, but a good guess is ventured [[Aqrab Massacre#Locations Map|on the map above]], looking like a second rebel checkpoint on their likely path. The team looks somber (see inset). It's not clear if this is before or after seeing conditions at the Abu Ismail house or if they ever got there; a transcription of what's audible would provide clues.<br />
<br />
=== Human Rights Watch Inaction ===<br />
LA Times passed on Nadim Houry, deputy director of the Middle East division of Human Rights Watch was quoted as saying the situation was "very murky," but somehow he was sure "a number of people" had been killed.<br />
:''"There are various narratives there, and we don’t have enough to have a conclusion yet," Houry said. "I’m not using the word massacre. It’s not clear to me how they died."''<ref name="LA1" /><br />
What's even less clear is if they (anything resembling the 125-150 first reported) died at all. The story saying how that happened seems to be untrue, and while no one can be sure the captives are still alive, no one else has any information on any significant numbers of dead. While the point of the LA Times article was to react to the new version from Channel 4, Mr. Houry explains he wasn't asked about that, only the previous "Alawite v. Alawite" version, which he called murky, before something and even now, after something. “when i was asked the question, narrative was Alawites killed Alawites. I said, details were murky. Which by they still are. … FYI Journo asked me about Alawite v. Alawite.” <ref name="NHT">[https://twitter.com/nadimhoury Twitter feed @Nadim Houry]Dec. 17 tweets:</ref><br />
<br />
As of February 11, two months after the alleged massacre, Human Rights Watch still has not issued any official statement whatsoever. Mr. Houry had assured the public early on that there was an investigation quietly proceeding: "still investigating. … ongoing investigation … Where did I say we concluded our investigation.” <ref name="NHT" /> This delay was the subject of a critical open letter to HRW, sent by wiki member Adam Larson (Caustic Logic) on Dec. 22. <ref name="CI1">[http://ciwclibya.org/lettersandpressreleases/onhrwsmurkyinvestigationofthecrimesataqrab.html On HRW's "murky" Investigation of the Crimes at Aqrab] Citizen's Investigation into War Crimes in Libya, Dec. 22, 2012</ref> At the moment, it seems likely their investigation will never have a conclusion. <br />
<br />
<br />
== The Video Record ==<br />
There are plenty of videos around of alleged survivors and witnesses to the events. These are covered below. Here, we look for cases where the camera itself was a witness and lets the rest of us be. <br />
<br />
=== Video of the Attacks of December 10/11 ===<br />
Videos of the negotiations, Shabiha captors, the fire fight, grenades lobbed at prisoners, blowing up the building, army shelling it, or warplanes bombing it, or any violence or anything happening around the building, apparently do not exist in the public sphere. Video proof of the events is apparently not the strong point of the rebel argument here. If any surface, they will be quickly noted here. According to the emerging narrative related by survivors and escapees, the final sequence of events rebels give as leading up to the bombing actually began on the afternoon of the 10th, running up to midnight, apparently culminating in the first hours of Dec. 11. Anyone looking through videos might keep that timeframe in mind and look for night or early morning shots. <br />
<br />
The closest glimpse we're allowed is Jalal Suleiman's "rescue" video published only as Channel 4's questions were first aired, three days after the other videos, as mentioned above. It seems to be filmed mid-morning, presumably on Dec. 11. <ref name="JS1" /><br />
<br />
=== Preceding Events ===<br />
As Thomson heard, the taking of hostages didn't occur on the day of the alleged massacre, but rather nine days earlier. Since the reported rebel take-over of the city is of such duration, anything from December 2 forward might be of value in understanding what happened during the curious blank spot in the record that is Dec. 10/11 prior to the interviews with survivors. <br />
<br />
A good list of some of these is compiled on [[Talk:Aqrab Massacre#Context: December 6th battle|the discussion page]].<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Massacres]]<br />
[[Category:Houla]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Al-Houla_Before_and_After_the_Massacre&diff=5969Al-Houla Before and After the Massacre2013-08-14T20:20:00Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: Correcting Arabic translation</p>
<hr />
<div>One area of [[the Houla massacre]] of May 25, 2012 that's worthy of some attention is how the security situation changed from before the massacre to afterwards. The whole scene in the three villages of Al-Houla are of interest, but especially the south of [[Taldou]], where the massacre of over 100 occurred. <br />
<br />
The following page does not seek to be all-inclusive, but only to get enough points of data to form a general picture of what changed after May 25. Some of this will be best worked-out first on the discussion page.<br />
<br />
== Violence Prior to "the Massacre" ==<br />
As established at the page [[Houla, May 25: Who Was in Control?]], the day of the infamous Houla massacre was the same day as what seems to be the fiercest-yet rebel assault on security forces in the town of Taldou, Al-Houla, Homs province. But Taldou and the other two towns of Al-Houla (Kafr Laha and Tal-Dahab) were the scene of much disputed violence prior to that day, and building up to it. <br />
<br />
=== Opposition Videos and Reports ===<br />
==== April 2011 Protest Fired On ====<br />
Among the earliest incidents shared is one dated April 22, 2011: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CTZFVUmY8 a video of a protest apparently coming under fire] in "Homs, Houla." The crowd with signs faces south, unmoving. Some in the rear are young men on motorcycles, but not visibly armed. When unseen gunfire opens, the crowd scatters, some lay low and play dead, one longer than the others (possibly dead). It’s in Taldou, Main Street, with the cameraman looking south and east on the roof dead-centered [https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.871532,36.525732&spn=0.001063,0.002398&t=k&z=19 here on Google Maps], 94 meters north of military intel HQ. When the people scatter, it's mostly down the ring road to the west.<br />
<br />
A special note on this video: as some critics have pointed out, the flag these protesters are holding is not the rebel/French mandate flag, but a variant of the national flag, with the colors doubled. It's not clear if the green stars are present. This could mean rebels firing on pro-government demonstrators (if one is on a roof with a camera, why not another with a gun?), or the same by the government (for whatever reason), rebels staging a false-flag protest with motorcycles (for whatever reason), or some mixed dynamic among the people gathered here. Some of the amped-up young men seem to be gesturing victory after the shooting, fists up in a giant V, seemingly directed towards someone to the north. Was the sniper quickly shot dead? By who? Unknown.<br />
<br />
==== August, 2011 Houla Massacre (mangled men) ====<br />
Activist videos filmed August 7, 2011 show at least three bodies found in a vacant field, at mid-day. Looking at least a day old (stiffness, discoloration, maggots), they suggest the time of death was perhaps late on the 5th. They’re described as victims of "AlHula Massacre," who were "torn (by) Syrian army tanks shells during the invasion of Houla." They do seem to be horribly mangled, victims of shelling/explosives or worse. Interestingly, August 5, 2011 is the death date [http://www.documents.sy/martyr.php?id=311&lang=en given by official sources] for policeman Abrahem KamelHasan, killed in Taldo. No other victims appeared in conjunction. <br />
<br />
The six relevant videos are collected in [http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUEjL5wmYNZU78JpdJmC93Tu this handy playlist], for reference. The most widely-seen of the bodies is shown being carried in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXFtTIInVlg “Al Hula 7-8-2011 AlHula massare”] (0:41, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKKu4if8Maw alt posting]) with subtitles blaming Assad’s Shabiha, and taunting Turkey’s Erdogan for waiting on reforms. By dress he’s a civilian, a lean older man with a receded hairline. His dirt-crusted face is punctured in many spots with small, deep holes as if jabbed with and ice-pick. Notably, his neck is coated with blood, but not sliced - the skin has somehow peeled off. All this and his tattered bloody clothes suggest all-around brutality, perhaps dragged behind a vehicle. The truck he's laid in has a length of rope he's lain atop of. <br />
<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNYgPQBolQc Another re-posting] describes a “victim awfully murdered by unknown criminal act.” It would seem like that, so it's startling to notice that '''the man is apparently ''not'' dead'''. As he lays in the truck, his head rolls from side-to-side with the rhythm of forced breathing (neck flexing and slight mouth movements can be seen), and his right arm seems to flex at 0:43. The breathing is much clearer in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-NXWpWBSQ another disgusting video] at 0:31-0:42. It’s not clear if the rebels notice that he’s alive- their repeated Allah references aren’t clear to us, although it sounds like they include Shadid, martyr. <br />
<br />
The second victim is less-seen, but more brutalized yet, and definitely dead ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CipZ_2uef_I graphic video]). His left arm is loose, the upper bones redered gone, squished like a section of hose. His lower legs are badly broken and burned-looking, but intact. He’s naked from the waist down, privates and abdomen covered with his missing shirt, apparently (white, checked, not fighter garb). The right arm also looks tweaked and possibly burnt, but intact. Further, his right shoulder, back of neck area has an unseen massive injury that has leaked a lot of blood on the dirt here, suggesting this field is where he was subjected to shelling, or was dumped shortly afterwards. <br />
<br />
A [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2D1y1NOfk later-posted video] of the same day (from the Houla Media Office) shows this victims with better resolution, carried, and laid in a truck. His right arm is torn trough in several spots. Another view (cited above - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB7sMjBsby4 HMO alt posting]) also has better detail and shows him laid alongside the first-described, still-living victim (also with better detail). Besides the wounds seen elsewhere, this corpse also has a large hole in the upper abdomen, left side. Maggots are visible here on the wounds, suggesting around 36 hours or more has passed since his death. Muslim custom mandates burial within 24 hours when possible, so whoever left these bodies added another humiliation in that way.<br />
<br />
A thrid victim is in worse shape yet and isn’t shown being picked up ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7wVZldQT2M more graphic yet]). This one’s legs are gone below the mid-thigh, and he’s naked from the waist down, not covered. '''The man’s genitals and that whole area is torn away in what seems a separate injury, leaving a scooped out pelvis.''' He may have a right arm (unclear angle) but the left arms is gone, and the whole upper left torso is obliterated, his head mostly detached. There is not too much blood, and no sign of the missing parts here, suggesting he was killed elsewhere and dumped in this field. <br />
<br />
The two dead men especially look like the victim of a brutal drawing-and-quartering of the pulling/dismemberment type ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismemberment Wikipedia]). But they also look like some of the more extreme battle dead one can see, or a bit like the victims of the [[Houla: Saad Street RPG Incident#Four Victims|Saad Street RPG incident]] of May 25, 2012: right by a rebel firing RPGs in Taldou, one had his legs blasted off at the thigh, removing the pants, and the back of another’s head was blasted off. Like these, they were killed explosively in the open (following arrest, perhaps), filmed as shelling victims, and then recovered by rebels. These August victims had it worse, perhaps with more leisure, absent the heat of a major battle.<br />
<br />
==== September 19, 2011 Houla Massacre (the rampage) ====<br />
The first major media-promoted Houla massacre - with about 100 fewer victims than the main one - was reported by opposition activists to Reuters, who reported on the recent event September 19, 2011:<br />
:''Syrian forces shot dead at least six villagers and two rebel soldiers on Monday, in a sweep of countryside north of the city of Homs, one of the most defiant regions in pro-democracy protests, activists and residents said.''<br />
:[...]<br />
:''The assault on Houla, a collection of villages north of Homs, 165 km (100 miles) north of Damascus, followed a large protest on Sunday demanding Assad's removal. About 12 government soldiers manning rural checkpoints had defected, activists said.''<br />
:''"Several of the defectors put up a fight but they were overwhelmed. The rest were civilians who were killed by the random gunfire from the tanks as they went through al-Houla," said a resident who gave his name as Abu Yazan.''<br />
:''He said 14 people, including school-age students, were arrested in Taldo, Kfar Laha, Takltheb Tibeh and Iqreb villages.'' <ref name="R1">[http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/19/us-syria-idUSL5E7KJ3GB20110919 Syrian forces kill eight near Homs: activists] By Khaled Yacoub Oweis, Reuters, AMMAN | Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:29pm EDT</ref><br />
<br />
An activist video dated September 19 (but uploaded Sept. 18) cannot show the aftermath of this rampage, partly at least in Taldou, along main street. Some building are shot-up, a crest on the city arches is gone (never replaced), and several power poles have been shot down. Government trucks are there fixing some of them already. Nothing like tank shelling is evident. <ref name="MHV1">[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP45XgTBrr4 الحولة آثار القصف المدفعي الذي قام به الجيش الأسدي على المنازل و الشوارع و أعمدة الكهرباء] (Hula effects shelling carried out by the army Asadi on homes, streets and electricity poles) Published Sept.18, 2011 by Monther Hrfosh</ref><br />
<br />
==== November 2, 2011 Houla Massacre (Warehouse) ====<br />
(more details on this coming)<br />
<br />
==== November 20-24 Houla Massacres (children, a school, a doctor) ====<br />
(more details on this coming)<br />
<br />
==== Medical Personnel Killed ====<br />
An opposition acitivist group (Doctor Coordinate of Damascus) provided Physicians for Human Rights with details on medical personnel killed in the first year of the Syrian conflict. These are compiled [http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/issues/mass-atrocities/syria/medics-killed-in-syria.html here], 55 names, three of them from Al-Houla. They were victims of "the violent crackdown in Syria," they heard, although they were "unable to independently verify these details." Exact words re-formatted and in chronological order:<br />
* Sameer Bakour, Pharmacist: Killed 22 Apr 2011 in Homs, Teldo. Shot.<br />
* Nadhem Ibrahim, Hospital Director: killed 13 Aug 2011 in Homs, Alhula. Car shelled. <br />
* Ma’ath Abdulkarim Al faris, Physician: killed 24 Nov, 2011 in Homs, Hula. Arrested and tortured to death.<br />
<br />
==== April 5 Houla Massacre (a military family) ====<br />
[[File:Houla Wristband April 6 2012.png|thumb|April 5, 2012: a child victim of a Houla massacre]][[File:Houla Wristband 2.png|thumb|same boy seen at night]]A video from Al-Houla, showing three members of a family piled dead outside their home, has been cited around (including by the UN's investigators) as being from the famous massacre. The troubling fact is it shows one young boy, laid out by himself aside from his parents, wearing a '''red-white-and-black wristband''', Syria’s national colors. However, this incident is older, as a critical analysis videos on Youtube was up by [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOTDbUvRMo this April 25 posting]. The [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r80qrSElmE one they look at] was posted April 6, and not an original posting either - stabilized and unnaturally blurred, the key detail is still visible. The Arabic title on that translates "'''Hula massacre after the bombing of a house officer dissident Mohammed Sawaf'''." Being an officer would explain the kid's attire, and could explain the family's targeting. Being called dissident ("defector") does not explain the colors, but might help the killers launder their crime. <br />
<br />
The same title leads to [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M75TtTMPUg the apparent original posting], by activist Houla Amr Faour, on April 5, including the same effects. [http://www.youtube.com/user/thepain12a?feature=watch His channel] contains other April 5 videos (translated titles): [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2YzOztk6Kg Hula targeting mosque faith in Hula] - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEY2v4N3P70 Hula parents reaction after reaction shells and the occurrence of the massacre] - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coaPadjX8F4 Hula massacre woman and her son]. The last is a night view, poorly lit. The boy is clearly the same, with the same wristband still on his right arm, but pushed now up to his little elbow (see lower view, enhanced for visibility)<br />
<br />
The videography is puzzling, if seen as a covered-up rebel crime; they could have concealed the wristband any number of way (rolling him on the other arm, hiding him entirely in the pile with the rest, removing the thing). But instead it's left prominently displayed in two videos. This makes sense either as an attempt to make this look like a rebel crime, or as a rather bold warning it was hoped loyalist Syrians would catch while the outside world missed it.<br />
<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQN9O6kSPLU Another activist's view] of "dissident Sawaf’s" wife and son, apparently (“a woman and her child”), wrapped in a blanket, was posted on April 5. Here seen outside in fading daylight, wrapped in a blanket, their death is branded “'''as a result of heavy shelling''',” with '''no follow-up massacre mentioned'''. As he’s handled, the boy’s right arm is not seen, although the clarity of view is best here. Accompanying videos of April 5 show two areas on Houla (not placed, could be anywhere in Houla) with smoke and damage from shelling/mortars/whatever. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfwMwz4TrtI One house] has a hole through an eave, and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnnxfV-MOts another] that looks similar to Amr Faour's scene with the bodies (no bodies yet) pours smoke. That video shows a small-looking person running across the screen, along the compound's outer wall and into the fields, extremely fast (0:02-0:12). That one didn’t die, or run towards the rebel cameraman nearby. The location can be set for that - [https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=34.876109,36.53195&spn=0.002126,0.004329&t=k&z=18 here on Google maps], 530-540 meters east of the clock tower, along a north-south alley with a mosque - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2YzOztk6Kg also damaged] -at the north end. <br />
<br />
A side-note: The Syrian Center for Documentation (see below) notes at least two events for April 5, neither of them being this massacre of a family. [http://www.documents.sy/news.php?id=1313&lang=en One report] says "Armed rebels target the main electrical generator," taking out power to the Al-Houla area. There are no lights on to prove that wrong, but it's still marginally daylight. For the night shot of the boy and his mother, there is no normal lighting at that locale (a situation that also accompanied the Houla massacre, although the rebels had acquired brighter portable lights by then). [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=193&lang=en Another dispatch] says there were clashes that day, with "a leader of an armed militia" killed. Surely they don't mean the officer Mohammed Sawaf?<br />
<br />
=== Syrian Center for Documentation entries ===<br />
The Syrian Center for Documentation is a Syria-based project that reports some of both sides' information, keping an extensive record of events (by number, not detail), and maintains a fairly neutral tone, while clearly from its graphics and lack of the usual shrieking against Assad, is ultimately supportive of the Syrian government. Some of their entries from 2011-May 2012, a fairly complete list looking for the different spelling used, is given below. Of specialnote is their general failure to mention the massacres rebels were constantly showing video proof of.<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/martyr.php?id=311&lang=en Aug 5, 2011] Death date given for policeman Abrahem KamelHasan, killed in Taldo. <br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/marties.php?page=262&lang=en Aug. 7, 2011]: Death date given for Muhammad mahmoud joumaa alhajaj, killed in homs-alhoula. <br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download_city&city_id=3 Nov. 1, 2011]: " . Arrest of Ayman Youssef on the army checkpoint in the Hula. Activists say that he arrested because his name was included in one of the most wanted lists.''<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=2 Dec. 12, 2011]: "the dead body of a thirty years old man arrive to the national hospital coming from Taldo where it was dumped in front of the revolution youth union (affiliated to Ba'ath party) headquarter."<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=73&lang=en Jan. 20, 2012]: "Gunmen attacked security checkpoints in Taldo and Al-Houla located in Homs’ outskirt."<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=87&lang=en Jan 28]: "Armed rebels attack an army checkpoint located in Taldo area in Homs which leads to the death of a number of the rebels"<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=97&lang=en February 1, 2012]: "Shootings and bombings were heard in Al-Sabeel and Al-Hawla neighborhood last night."<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=105&lang=en Feb. 5, 2012]: "An anti-government gathering takes place in Al-Hawla area of Homs and raises the mandate flag."<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=168&lang=en March 12, 2012]: "Gunmen bomb a diesel pipeline located in Al-Hawla area between Hama and Homs"<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=179&lang=en March 14]: "Clashes between the Syrian Army and armed militias take place in Tal Dahab village located in Al-Hawla village of Homs countryside and result in the death of gunmen, the injury of others and the capture of their weapons." <br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=162&lang=en March 19]: "Ahmad Mouafak Asber gets killed in Al-Howla area of Homs countryside and anti-government activists accuse the security force of killing him." [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=162&lang=en March 19, 2012]: "Ahmad Mouafak Al-Esper’s funeral takes place in Al-Hawla area and turns into an anti-government demonstration."<br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=171&lang=en March 23]: "[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lONMBmFM9QY&feature=g-u-u&context=G2286231FUAAAAAAADAA An anti-government gathering] occurs in Al-Hawla area of Homs countryside so what the opposition called “we are coming to Damascus” Friday."<br />
* March 26, 2012: "Armed rebels bomb a fuel pipeline located nearby Taldo in Al-Hawla area of Homs countryside." <ref name="DS1">[http://www.documents.sy/news.php?id=1137&lang=en Homs 2012-03-26] Syrian Center for Documentation March 26, 2012</ref><br />
* April 5, 2012: "Armed rebels target the main electrical generator of Al-Hawla area located in Homs countryside which results in a power outage in the area." <ref name="DS2">[http://www.documents.sy/news.php?id=1313&lang=en Homs 2012-04-05] Syrian Center for Documentation April 5, 2012</ref> April 5: "A leader of an armed militia is killed during clashes with the Syrian Army in Al-Hawla area of Homs countryside.'' <ref name=DS3">[http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=193&lang=en Newsletter April 5, Eglish section]Syrian Center for Documentation, April 5, 2012</ref> <br />
* [http://www.documents.sy/newsletter.php?action=download&id=196&lang=en April 7]: Armed militias attack a number of security checkpoints in Al-Hawla area of Homs countryside; no causalities are recorded.<br />
<br />
== Violence After "the Massacre" ==<br />
=== De-Population After May 25 ===<br />
It appears that the plan of the massacre was, in part, to displace a large number of people. The AP reported May 26 that "(Houla activist) Abu Yazan said most residents were fleeing the area Saturday, fearing further killings." Further, Bassma Kodmani "of the exile opposition Syrian National Council" underlined the crimes of "expulsions and forced migration from entire neighborhoods." <ref name="AP1">[http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4234394,00.html Activists put Syria attack death toll at 110] Associated Press via Ynet news, May 26, 2012</ref> Opposition sources have always described the populace there, as everywhere, as inherently anti-government, witnessed by the regular Friday protests that eventually drew such extreme repression. Clearing them out would make it easier for the government to control the area. <br />
<br />
How populated different areas of Al-Houla are now is an area needing further study. <br />
<br />
As of May 26 and 27, the south of Taldou, which saw the massacre and the heaviest fighting, was apparently empty of living people, and the center was at least sparse. The north of town, where rebels had prevailed, had plenty of people to meet the Channel 4 news crew and UN monitors. <br />
<br />
By November, a video of bombardment (embedded below) shows quite a few civilians, including children and perhaps whole families, living in the east of town, the center, and even a bit south of center. A January, 2013 Friday protest at martyr's square in the north of town drew quite a crowd. Whether these are all Taldou locals or from elsewhere in Houla in uncertain ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3ixtBdZ1fU video]).<br />
<br />
=== Al-Houla Under Rebel Control ===<br />
Already by May 25 rebels, even fighters, had a high amount of mobility, if not quite control, in Al-Houla in general. A [[Arabad bin Sarieh battalion|rebel fighting brigade]] was formed in Taldou in the spring of 2012 to further their reach. (citations needed)<br />
<br />
As mentioned above, the opposition argues that clearing out the rebellious populace would make it easier for the government to control the area. What appears to have happened instead is that ''rebels'' took general control of what became nearly a ghost town. As of mid September, the area of Houla and east of it to Ar Rastan and Talbisah is the opposition stronghold of Homs province and remains under their control. (citation needed)<br />
<br />
Videos show the southern outskirts of Taldou as a ghost town. Some video documentation:<br />
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_-4a_OtiCo FNN Syria Homs al Houla Destruction in the area close to the site of the massacre 12 9 2012]<br />
<br />
=== Continued Shelling ===<br />
There are many,many videos and reports, some of them at least credible, of continued Syrian military attacks on Al-Houla and Taldou in particular. These run from the days immediately after the massacre and run thick into June. Thereafter they continue more sporadically. <br />
<br />
Perhaps one of the more dramatic videos of continued military attacks on Taldou is this 20-minute epic of fighter jet attacks on November 6. Host Jalal Suleiman takes the viewer all around town as numerous powerful bombs come down in a city that has power and a moderate number of civilian inhabitants. (Further notes in time and/or see [[Talk:Al-Houla Before and After the Massacre#Nov. 6 Jalal Video|the discussion page]].) <br />
<center><youtube>UVgZJ6YVqzg</youtube><br><br />
<b>Taldou, November 6, 2012</b></center><br />
<br />
=== Further Massacres (Reported) ===<br />
At least two adult male members of the Salama (" سلامة" - "safety") family were horribly killed on or before May 30, 2012, somewhere in Al-Houla. The following videos were recently re-posted by the SOHR on [http://www.youtube.com/user/syriahro?feature=watch their Youtube channel]. <br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHnzRajnTzs حمص الحولة 30-5-الشهيد محمد عبداللطيف سلامة] "Homs Hula 30.5 - Shahid Mohammed Abdul-Latif Salama." Nasty upper head wound worth some diagnosis, small bullet-holes or punctures and perhaps burn marks all over torso, hip injury, possible holes in left side of neck, forehead, gray (smoke-stained?) face. <br />
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcTCXDgEbUE حمص - الحولة 30-5 الشهيد احمد سلامة (منظر مروع )] "Homs - Hula 30.5 Martyr Ahmed Salama (shocking view)" Seen in a truck bed, his head is hafl-detached as we've seen before, back of skull blown away, face flopping like a heavy mask that's also split down the middle. The swollen and discolored neck suggests some hours at least since he was so mutilated.<br />
<br />
=== Al-Houla Rebels in Action ===<br />
==== Attack on Aqrab ====<br />
{{Main|Aqrab Massacre}}<br />
'''Rebel-held Al-Houla has a special distinction for staging perhaps the worst-yet act of genocide against the same Alawite sect they've spent so long demonizing.''' On December 2, 2012, a mass of rebel fighters from Al-Houla, Rastan, and elsewhere descended on the town of Aqrab, just a couple miles north of Houla's Tal-Dahab. A spat with the Alawite community there had escalated, and they hit the Alawite district back. 1,500 fled, the remaining 500 were taken hostage by the rebels, and 300 were released in trades with the government (all numbers approximate). By the night of December 10, they told a world that didn't know that information yet, [[The Shabiha: Ghost Stories?|Alawite Shabiha]] held the remaining 200 in a house. Rebels and survivors in their custody, in Al-Houla, swore the Shabiha murdered their co-religionists by exploding the house, followed by army shelling and air force bombs. But the house that other escapees (not rebel-held) pointed to as their prison was belching smoke but standing the next day. One says they had been burning tires in the to suffocate the people, besides denying food and water. The world now acknowledges the rebels lied and had their witnesses support that lie, apparently under durress. They alone held those men, women, and children, and if anyone killed them, it was those same rebels. No proof either way has yet been offered or demanded, but considering the conditions described, it's hard to imagine many of them survived for long.<br />
<br />
==== Attack on Busatin Al-Haswiyeh ====<br />
{{Main|Haswiyeh Massacre}}<br />
There's little evidence yet to directly link Houla-based rebels to the January 15 massacre in this northern fringe area of Homs city. There is however some. Proximity makes it possible, with a bare 20 km, most of it open fields, between Taldou and the orchards of Haswiyeh that locals says hundreds of rebels took control of just before the killings. The best link is that Houla-based activists had detailed information on the alleged government killing. Activist Abu Yazan/Yazen, cited repeatedly on this page, is one of the prime sources on the later massacre. Speaking to Reuters:<br />
:''Abu Yazen, an opposition activist in Homs, said the rebel Free Syrian Army occasionally entered the farmland of Basatin al-Hasawiya to attack a nearby military academy. "Assad's forces punish civilians for allowing the rebels to enter the area," he said. <ref name="RH">[http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/19/uk-syria-crisis-idUKBRE90I0GR20130119 Massacre of over 100 reported in Syria's Homs] By Oliver Holmes, Reuters, January 19, 2013 7:04pm GMT</ref> (In contrast, locals said the opposite - rebels killed locals for refusing to help them.) AP also spoke with him: <br />
:''Haswiyeh is controlled by government forces, but activists said many of its residents have sons in the Free Syrian Army, the main rebel group fighting to topple Assad's forces."This is a purely sectarian attack meant to punish the rebels by targeting their families," said Abu Yazan, an opposition activist speaking via Skype from Houla.'' <ref name="AP2">[http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2013/01/17/syrian-activists-say-dozens-killed-in-village Syrian pro-regime gunmen kill more than 100] By Bassem Mroue and eina Karam, Associated Press, January 17, 2013 </ref><br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Houla]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aleppo_prisoner_massacres&diff=5968Aleppo prisoner massacres2013-08-14T20:10:37Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: Correction of Arabic translation</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Victory Front execution in Aleppo.jpg|thumb|400px|A photograph published by the [[Al-Nusra Front]] to Protect the Levant showing the execution. ''([[:File:Al nusra executing soldiers.jpg|Other version]])'']]<br />
[[File:Alep-street-bodies-0614.jpg|thumb|400px|Revolutionaries praise God around Bodies]]<br />
[[File:Alep-street-bodies-0454.jpg|thumb|400px|A subgroup of the soldiers – executed separately – appear to be female medical staff]]<br />
[[File:Alep massacre 141.jpg|thumb|400px]]<br />
[[File:Alep massacre 105.jpg|thumb|400px|Massacred civilians in an alleyway]]<br />
[[File:Alep massacre 614.jpg|thumb|400px|A pile of maybe 5 bodies further down the street, under the tree in front of the alleyway]]<br />
[[File:SalmanAlFarasi-0109.jpg|thumb|Hood of a Toyota 4X4 showing the emblem of the Salman al-Farisi (Salman the Persian) Battalion]]<br />
<br />
Two videos published on YouTube by FSA channels on September 8th, 2012 show prisoner massacres in Aleppo that are, ostensibly, disconnected from each other. One is the killing of 20 apparent uniformed soldiers, executed by the FSA brigades, and the other is a similar number of civilian men allegedly slaughtered by government forces. However, it seems quite likely both arrays of bodies are part of the same rebel-controlled crime scene. <br />
<br />
The first video shows about 20 executed civilians in a courtyard, reported as in Al Akramia district. The second video, and a third published two days later show about 20 solders lined up on a street and executed. Another smaller pile of possibly five more bodies is seen further down the street. Six of the bodies seem to be female medical staff. Some sources have speculated the location of the massacre may be in Saba'a Bahrat (presumably near [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaa_Bahrat_Square,_Aleppo Saba'a Bahrat Square]. <ref>Brown Moses Blog: [http://brown-moses.blogspot.fi/2012/09/alleged-mass-execution-by-fsa-in-aleppo.html Alleged Mass Execution By The FSA And Al-Nusra Front In Aleppo] – 10 SEPTEMBER 2012</ref> <br />
<br />
The first video also [[:File:Alep massacre 614.jpg|shows a peek view]] ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIPBKEDMODA&t=0m19s&bpctr=1347329979 at 0:20]) of possibly another pile of bodies on the street outside. One body is shown on a few frames. The two other videos however confirm my interpretation, by showing a similar pile in a similar location in relation with the sidewalk. All videos may or may not be from same location. (See [[Talk:Aleppo prisoner massacres#Location?|talk]]) Together the videos show a total of about 20 + 20 + 5 = 45 massacre victims. <br />
<br />
== Location ==<br />
The massacre sites are on tree-lined streets with a recognizable patterned concrete on the sidewalks. The bodies on the street are on a east-west street with 5 story houses on the northern side. Closed shops line the south side. In the west, the street ends in an intersection with a south-west to north-east east-west road. About 60 meters from the intersection the street makes a slight bend to the north. The general appearance of the street is central and uppers class. Streets in the Saladin neighborhood have a similar appearance. ([http://www.panoramio.com/photo/73399007 photo])<br />
<br />
The massacre may be related to the capture by rebels of parts of the Hanano Barracks. The Hanano military base is not located in the Hanano neighborhood in north-eastern Aleppo, but in central Aleppo, about 800 meters north-north-east of the Citadel. ([http://goo.gl/maps/d5VqA Google Maps])<br />
<br />
<gallery><br />
File:Aleppo_Scene_east-ish.png|A composite view east from the massacre site<br />
File:Aleppo_Scene_west-ish.png|A composite view west from the massacre site<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== Possible female victims ==<br />
Both videos pay special attention to a group of bodies at the eastern end of the street that seen to have been executed separately. Their appearance and clothing indicates they may be female medical staff. The possibility merits a look at the screen captures shared here. <br />
<gallery><br />
File:Alep-street-bodies-0454.jpg<br />
File:Alep-street-bodies-0528.jpg<br />
File:Alep-street-bodies-0730.jpg<br />
File:Alep-street-bodies-1233.jpg <br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
== Videos==<br />
According to the ''New York Times'' ''In one of the videos showing the executed soldiers, a narrator claims that a rebel battalion called Salman al-Farisi was responsible for killing the men. A man who claimed to be a representative of the battalion, contacted through its Facebook page, condemned the killings but said he was not sure whether members of the militia were responsible for them. The video of the executions was subsequently removed from the [https://www.facebook.com/SalmanAlfarsyTroop battalion’s Facebook page].''<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/world/middleeast/united-nations-warns-syrian-rebels-over-atrocities.html?_r=1 U.N. Warns Syrian Rebels Over Atrocities] – New York Times, September 11th</ref><br />
<br />
* اكثر من 20 رجلا عثر على جثامينهم بحي الاكرمية+18<br />
*: (More than 20 men were found on their bodies in the district of al-Akramiya +18)<br />
*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v_U4aE4yg4<br />
*: Published on Sep 7, 2012 by syriahro<br />
*:: [[:File:Alep massacre.png|HQ still from video 1]]<br />
<br />
* نهاية الأمن على يدكتيبة سلمان الفارسي لواءأحرار الباب والشرق<br />
*: The end of the security [service] in the hands of the Battallion of Salman al-Farisi, Brigade of Ahrar al-Bab wal-Sharq <br />
*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hq6p-VofMQ<br />
*: Published on Sep 8, 2012 by slman alfarse<br />
<br />
* تصفية اكثر من 20 عنصر من القوات النظامية السورية بحلب+18<br />
*: (Liquidation of more than 20 members of the Syrian regime forces in Aleppo +18)<br />
*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEnAp_ZuLfA<br />
*: Published on Sep 10, 2012 by syriahro<br />
<br />
== Text Sources ==<br />
* [http://rt.com/news/syria-massacre-video-execution-819/ RT]<br />
* [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/syria-video-soldiers-executed_n_1870992.html Huffington Post]<br />
* [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9534242/Rebels-accused-of-massacre-of-20-Syrian-soldiers-in-their-worst-atrocity-so-far.html Rebels accused of massacre of 20 Syrian soldiers in their worst atrocity so far] – The Telegraph, Richard Spencer & Ruth Sherlock, 10 Sep 2012<br />
* [http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/09/201291212213827615.html Free Syrian Army executions condemned] – Al Jazeera, 12 Sep 2012 <br />
* [http://www.voltairenet.org/20-Syrian-soldiers-executed-in 20 Syrian soldiers executed in Aleppo] – VOLTAIRE NETWORK, 10 SEPTEMBER 2012<br />
* [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/17/syrian-rebels-accused-war-crimes Syrian rebels accused of war crimes] – Ian Black, guardian.co.uk, 17 September 2012<br />
<br />
=== Hanano military base ===<br />
There are conflicting reports of the fighting over the Hanano barracks, but little doubt that there was fighting, initiated by the FSA brigades.<br />
* [http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/rebels-claim-success-in-battle-for-syrian-army-base Rebels claim success in battle for Syrian army base] – Zoi Constantine, The National, Sep 9, 2012<br />
* [http://www.brecorder.com/world/middle-east/78056-syria-army-repels-rebel-attack-on-aleppo-barracks-.html Syria army repels rebel attack on Aleppo barracks] – Asad Naeem, 08 September 2012<br />
* [http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=578_1347328133&comments=1 The SAA recaptures Hanano military base (Aleppo) from the insurgents 10/9/2012]<br />
<br />
== Other research ==<br />
* Urs1798: [http://urs1798.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/der-unterschied-zwischen-festgenommenen-und-geiseln-in-syrien-syria/ Der Unterschied zwischen Festgenommenen und Geiseln in Syrien #Syria Crimes against humanity] – 10/09/2012<br />
* Brown Moses Blog: [http://brown-moses.blogspot.fi/2012/09/alleged-mass-execution-by-fsa-in-aleppo.html Alleged Mass Execution By The FSA And Al-Nusra Front In Aleppo] – 10 SEPTEMBER 2012<br />
* Alleged German intelligence role in the rebel capture of these 20 soldiers, and alleged details from witnesses (they chose death over defection): [http://syrianperspective.blogspot.fi/2012/09/september-12-2012-third-post-germany.html GERMANY DIRECTED MASSACRE OF SYRIAN SOLDIERS IN ALEPPO; GERMAN WAR CRIMES ABOUND] – Syrian Perspective: SEPTEMBER 12, 2012<br />
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== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
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[[Category:Aleppo]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres]]</div>Jokkmokks goranhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jokkmokks_goran&diff=5967User talk:Jokkmokks goran2013-08-14T19:46:17Z<p>Jokkmokks goran: Created page with "Hi"</p>
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<div>Hi</div>Jokkmokks goran