https://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Balu&feedformat=atomA Closer Look On Syria - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T08:11:41ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.13https://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11780Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-26T11:11:38Z<p>Balu: /* "Youtube research" */</p>
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<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs, and there's no clear context why that actual bombing run happened. Unfortunately, I've got a deadline with my work so I can't contribute more at the moment. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
:I was wondering where you went. Thanks for this time. I would have recommended, well, you see what we do. Check the videos. What it shows is much better than what people say. I will have a look at this over the next couple of days. Kind of excited, though it's another gear, and already in 2 or 3 gears at once. Cheers --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Adam, you have to know this is the result of much filtering. The majority of what I found was more like disassembling IED looking things of suspicious origin. I was interested in the actual delivery, and -incidentally- stumbled upon a lot of Bronw Moses stuff. --[[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 11:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses, aka Eliot Higgins. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO he is a propagandists. He is by no means an expert. To me he looks more like the "Gay girl in Damascus". I think there should be a page devoted to him at ACLOS because he is constantly referred to in the mainstream media as an expert. (I don't know how to start a new page, and whether I can do that at all.) He's got a playlist for "barrel bombs".<br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
"If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life."<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end, that says these are used fuel tanks.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: You're not alone in your fascination with Brown Moses, he's kind of a star here. ;o) You'll find some editing tips on the "How to Contribute" page in the menu to the left. You can start new pages and are entitled to do so, just follow the simple rules outlined there (articles should be fact-based and reasonably neutral/civil and you shouldn't sign contributions there, while you should sign on Talk pages and are free to rant to your heart's content). Practically, and I think that's not explained over there so I will add it in the near future, the easiest way to start a new page is go to the URL in the Browser and replace the stuff that's behind /wiki/ now with the title of your planned page. You will be guided from there. It's also possible to start Talk pages without an article page yet existing with the same method (just like it is on this page, a "Talk:" before the name of the article). --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Oh, and please use four tildes or the button second-to-right in the edit menu to sign your contributions, so the date and time is included in the signature. How do you do it now (too lazy to look it up)? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:10, 25 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Somehow that button didn't work. Now it's fixed. --[[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 11:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11779Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-26T11:07:36Z<p>Balu: four tildes signature</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs, and there's no clear context why that actual bombing run happened. Unfortunately, I've got a deadline with my work so I can't contribute more at the moment. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
:I was wondering where you went. Thanks for this time. I would have recommended, well, you see what we do. Check the videos. What it shows is much better than what people say. I will have a look at this over the next couple of days. Kind of excited, though it's another gear, and already in 2 or 3 gears at once. Cheers --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses, aka Eliot Higgins. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO he is a propagandists. He is by no means an expert. To me he looks more like the "Gay girl in Damascus". I think there should be a page devoted to him at ACLOS because he is constantly referred to in the mainstream media as an expert. (I don't know how to start a new page, and whether I can do that at all.) He's got a playlist for "barrel bombs".<br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
"If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life."<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end, that says these are used fuel tanks.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: You're not alone in your fascination with Brown Moses, he's kind of a star here. ;o) You'll find some editing tips on the "How to Contribute" page in the menu to the left. You can start new pages and are entitled to do so, just follow the simple rules outlined there (articles should be fact-based and reasonably neutral/civil and you shouldn't sign contributions there, while you should sign on Talk pages and are free to rant to your heart's content). Practically, and I think that's not explained over there so I will add it in the near future, the easiest way to start a new page is go to the URL in the Browser and replace the stuff that's behind /wiki/ now with the title of your planned page. You will be guided from there. It's also possible to start Talk pages without an article page yet existing with the same method (just like it is on this page, a "Talk:" before the name of the article). --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
: Oh, and please use four tildes or the button second-to-right in the edit menu to sign your contributions, so the date and time is included in the signature. How do you do it now (too lazy to look it up)? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 21:10, 25 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Somehow that button didn't work. Now it's fixed. --[[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 11:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11765Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-25T14:46:33Z<p>Balu: a bit more on why I posted this</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs, and there's no clear context why that actual bombing run happened. Unfortunately, I've got a deadline with my work so I can't contribute more at the moment. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses, aka Eliot Higgins. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO he is a propagandists. He is by no means an expert. To me he looks more like the "Gay girl in Damascus". I think there should be a page devoted to him at ACLOS because he is constantly referred to in the mainstream media as an expert. (I don't know how to start a new page, and whether I can do that at all.) He's got a playlist for "barrel bombs".<br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
"If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life."<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end, that says these are used fuel tanks.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11764Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-25T14:43:21Z<p>Balu: More about Brown Moses</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs.<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses, aka Eliot Higgins. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO he is a propagandists. He is by no means an expert. To me he looks more like the "Gay girl in Damascus". I think there should be a page devoted to him at ACLOS because he is constantly referred to in the mainstream media as an expert. He's got a playlist for "barrel bombs".<br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
"If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life."<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end, that says these are used fuel tanks.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11763Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-25T14:41:09Z<p>Balu: Lost part of a sentence, also minor improvements.</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs.<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses, aka Eliot Higgins. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO he is a propagandists. He is by no means an expert. To me he looks more like the "Gay girl in Damascus".<br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
"If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life."<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end, that says these are used fuel tanks.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11762Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-25T14:36:23Z<p>Balu: Rearrange new section</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs.<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO <br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life.<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end: used fuel tanks<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11761Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-25T14:34:41Z<p>Balu: /* "Youtube research" */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]<br />
<br />
== "Youtube research" ==<br />
<br />
Dear Contributors, I've "researched" youtube for this phenomenon. I know YT is not a reliable source etc. but I was curios whether I could find anything resembling the claim at all. This "research" took a staggering amount of time and is far from exhaustive. I've found at least a few genuine looking videos where a helicopter drops something that subsequently explodes, but I doubt these are IEDs.<br />
<br />
Also, there's a hyperactive blogger, Brown Moses. He has gained some reputation in certain circles but IMHO <br />
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T7JqsCa586FSo7QoQYycP-1<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping a bomb (whatever it is)<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5PB-k9Runo<br />
<br />
Helicopter dropping 2 things, at least one with guiding parachute (very unlikely that it is improvised), explosion, looking genuine?<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTb7ciyyKlY<br />
<br />
Likely Mi-8 or Mi-17, two bombs from the rear? Explode, type unknown, unlikely IED<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQRkv6DKr8w<br />
<br />
Likely drop and explosion but a commenter with a "Jack Smith" type Hungarian name says it is fakery:<br />
"Attila Kovacs<br />
<br />
Routers... it's a shame, that you release such edited footage as news. This is NOT quality journalism (if you call it yourself). Those barrels are parachute dropped with food supplies for civilians who are held hostage and trapped by the terrorists. The two blasts are typical mortar impacts (no flame, as you suggest with "oil filled"). The "aftermath" footage was edited in from a vehicle based bomb blast that was done by terrorists. If Routers did this editing, then shame on you. If you received this edited video from an outside source, then stop releasing it without double checking it with qualified JOURNALISTS or mil. intel. professionals!!!!<br />
Rebel/foreign terrorists make such videos and blame mass murders on gov. forces and the labels on the videos prove these are separate sources and terrorist propaganda videos"<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFmpCqXcJ8<br />
<br />
Drop, and then explosion, unclear whether the video is cut, the cameraman lost it mid air<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cLIllcAo0<br />
<br />
Bomb from the sky, no evidence of IED and scrap metal. No helicopter.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUJoitUMBGA<br />
<br />
A very big explosion from two angles. One source says it was an ammunition dump. Relevance: Brown Moses (Eliot Higgins) published an article about barrel bombs from a certain Richard M. Lloyd, with some speculation about a new type of weapon that produces very big explosions.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefpIcUdqHM<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqDbtQsWdnQ<br />
Brown Moses article URL is below. I plan to debunk it. Richard M. Lloyd is an actual expert (unlike Eliot Higgins), but with an agenda.<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html<br />
<br />
Dud "barrel bomb", this "incident" appears in the Lloyd article above too. The thing is that it looks very much like an improvised rocket, and it is most likely "rebel" originated of course. The smaller diameter pipe with white material in it is very likely part of the rocket motor, and not a "small warhead [used] as a booster" as Lloyd claims in his article.<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nk8vH8LFfBQ<br />
This link above can also be found in a comment at the following Brown Moses article<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/11/evidence-of-very-large-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
but a sane commenter also thinks it is an improvised "rebel" rocket:<br />
If it's a Hell Cannon round, it's a brief but very clear shot which might tell us more about how it's made. Looks as if the warhead was a propane cannister in another life.<br />
<br />
From the hyperactive Brown Moses<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2013/01/diy-barrel-bombs-adieds-filmed-in.html<br />
It has embedded videos ostensibly taken by rebels at the Taftanaz air base after the rebel takeover. They "found" a few sealed pipes and there are embedded videos of these pipes stuck in the ground, supposedly dud barrel bombs. You can't watch the videos but there are preview pictures. IMHO these are obviously faked, the barrels don't dig a hole and then slide in slanted, and they should show more apparent damages. There's a video that -I think- is significant. It shows a Mi-8 type helicopter, intact (but w/o rear door), with an interior that matches the interior of the helicopter (blue and w/o rear door) on the only know videos where people (presumably SAA soldiers) drop IED looking things after lighting a fuse. Brown Moses devotes a whole post for these videos:<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/10/clear-evidence-of-diy-barrel-bombs.html<br />
I don't think it is outlandish to assume the "rebels" sometimes fake videos for their propaganda purposes. The videos have actually been removed, making investigation impossible, very conveniently, but there are stills in the Lloyd article. The "rebels" don't even have to fly with the aircraft to produce an interior shot.<br />
<br />
From Brown Moses again, some bullshit and speculation with a sane comment at the end: used fuel tanks<br />
http://brown-moses.blogspot.hu/2012/08/the-mystery-of-syrian-barrel-bombs.html</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caustic_Logic&diff=11674User talk:Caustic Logic2014-02-21T17:02:26Z<p>Balu: a little bit of @#$@#$@ over the stuff in Ukraine</p>
<hr />
<div>==2014==<br />
Happy New Year! I'm still a few hours shy here, but so what. We enter our third year of operations. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
(optioonal space to make the below a subset)<br />
<br />
: Happy New Year from the future! The 4 has already kicked out the 3 at google.de! :o) Best wishes, --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Oh, shit! I am drunk! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 03:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
::What a cruise! They were serving free champagne at the Skyview Bar on deck 10 until 5 am.<br />
::Anyway, Happy New Year! -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 15:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
:::You guys in the frozen North cruisin' around anyways. I partied right here, a lot to do. Not that far past 5 am still here, not too drunk yet or too far behinf schedule. A few more minutes of work left at least... then see ya again after about 8. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===Ukraine===<br />
[[User:Balu|Balu]], for example - new member, just involved in the community. He might notice what a slow day it's been. Where is everyone? I think CE, Petri, and I have all been a bit sidetracked with Ukraine. I'm trying not to get too involved, but some arguing at the JREF froum ([http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=269584 this thread]) along with CE. Petri is in a Facebook group I probably won't join. Doing some videos enhancements for educational value, hoping to return to Syria full time pretty soon. But man, things have gotten too weird to ignore in Kiev. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 13:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
: This shit in Ukraine is apparently similar to the events of early 2011 in Syria. This is the second country in the neighborhood of Hungary that gets fucked up by our overlords. The first one was Yugoslavia. Both countries are very similar to my homeland and I'm pretty sure no one there had imagined before the troubles that it would've become so serious. Both countries have (or had) a sizable Hungarian minority. Of course this minority is (and was) scared because those extremists who constitute the mass base of "protestors" are - I don't have a better word - fascists and anti-semites, literally, and they often define their enemies in terms of ancestry. These Ukrainian "peaceful protestors" deify Stepan Bandera, a nazi collaborator, whose troops were eager to help the Germans in massacring the Jews. Apparently, the "West" employs fascists in Europe and religious extremists in the Middle East for destabilizing. In Hungary, I guess they would be the Gipsy haters, because we have a modern, stylish and shiny European pro-zionist extreme right, so anti-semitism is considered somewhat outdated, moreover there are not many Jews left anyway due to the Holocaust. The usual European targets for hatred (immigrants and Muslims) are absent here, so poor Gipsies landed on the top of the hate list of these assholes. Sorry for the long rant -- [[User:Balu]]<br />
<br />
===History Mode===<br />
This site has been running since June, 2012. That's a year and a half. We've kicked ass. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
In recent months, signs are increasing that it was the anti-government conspiracy, not the Syrian government, that was "delaying the inevitable" this whole time. The government will remain. The cancer will be routed and subdued in time. That's my guess. The urgency of possible imminent war over the Ghouta allegations yielding to inspections and peace talks instead marked a point of transition, where both the urgency of discerning the truth was heightened and then the calm of realizing the rebels are done settled in. So in the last months my thinking of what's best and most urgent to do has changed and I'm thinking in a more relaxed, long-term, historical study mode. I vote for the site to stay up and active for another 18 months at least, and hope to keep developing different aspects. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Did I mention I was a history major in college? I did manage to all but earn a BA degree before losing financial aid in a real blunder, and obviously never entered the profession in exchange for money, which I still have to work for. But anyway, here we are working the early part of an important historical record. To some extent that's always how I've thought of it, and more so now. <br />
<br />
In that mode, I've been archiving things. The [[VDC]] [http://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/otherstatistics regime forces database] used to do searches by name and civilian/non-civilian status (yes, both are listed, because "regime forces" means something else). But since I started using it, a while back, they disabled those. That spurred me to start a big searchable file of all listed entries. In time this might be worth sharing here, probably in chuncks. So far I've got the first several weeks saved, mostly just the short entries listed on the front page. Opening and saving each entry's page was too time-consuming. More useful has been gathering LCC daily reports, into text documents covering two months each. I mostly save the text only, video links where I feel like pausing for that one. A lot of videos aren't there anymore. These go back to August 12, August 13 and some sporadic days are missing, but otherwise I have maybe half of 2011 and some of 2012 covered so far. These I've been citing lately, mostly for [[Homs Massacres]]. These can be shared in chunks, with some (Aug-Oct 2011, Nov-Dec 2011) perhaps ready soon. A final version might have all video links, but that's a lot of time on my end, so I can post working copies prior to that. Format, etc. to be decided in time. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 01:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Malnourished victim ==<br />
(Suggested material I later worked into [[Starving Children in Moadamiyeh|this page]]) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<s>This was discussed somewhere:<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2BcjatF-ao Child martyr Ibrahim Khalil result undernourishment Medmah the Sham 31 8 2013] – Mrkzmoadamia alsham<br />
You can remove the comment if you move the link somewhere. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 02:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
:I'll keep it here for right now, but it desrves a page soon. I'm on this one, in extremely general but effective terms, detail analysis hardly needed. At [http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/17107 an al-Akhbar article] on the UN report (a great one - I see we have it included, good) I saw a comment by fellow wiki member Clay Claiborne, who shifted the subject to allegations of regime shelling that was starving more kids in Moadamiya, this time a baby girl "in danger of death." <br />
:''Clay, these alleged baby-starving shells are off-topic emotive distractions here, and besides - babies get preference even under siege. If babies are starving and everyone else isn't, (are they? I only see scattered kids) look to the people immediately around that baby. One has a rebel activist video camera. Other activists explain the whole story and get suckers like you to push for NATO air cover, over these regime CW attacks and regime blockades.''<br />
Next step will be to get visuals of any non-starving rebel fighters who are running the place at the relebvant time, put the images side by side and ask why the fighters aren't sharing food with the kids. Was there a mercy embargo? Or do they just want more dead kids to guilt trip us with, in hopes we're not thinking straight (and most aren't). --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 08:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
: Half-way related (I think), check [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/robert-fisk-in-damascus-assads-troops-may-be-winning-this-war-in-syrias-capital--untouched-by-obamas-threats-8825005.html what Fisk writes about Moadamiyah] and the operations of that night. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
::Definitely to note, more to the "chemical shelling" part we still didn't cover here yet. What's up with that? As for the shelling so bad even the babies are starving, here's the guys sent to meet the UN team on the 26th - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX0N2r4WzYI Youtube]. Everyone here seems leaner than average, actually, but that's probably a coincidence, other than about two pretty beefy guys by the door, and no one chubby. Not the best example I'm sure. For reference, the one Clay points to is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NbfLFgt77cY this], difficult to watch, unnecessary (filmed on or before September 23). A little girl, I don'y know, a year or two old but bald like newborn? Poorly kept by someone, cellophane diaper, rebel doctor jabbing at her symptoms at length for our edification. She's breathing hard, looking hard, thinking hard, cooperating, tender all over but jabbed all over, not at death's door but within a few blocks of it. I sense no human compassion coming her way from the people in this room. Subjective I know, but I dare you to test that. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)</s><br />
<br />
More sources on this:<br />
http://972mag.com/after-chemical-attack-damascus-suburbs-face-starvation/79851/ <br />
I left a comment in the Facebook pane. Curious if it come through. Also comments below, don't seem to have.<br />
<br />
I didn't do more here tonight/this AM because I thought we were in read-only mode. I hear that's to happen soon and for most of the weekend as they get everything onto new servers and hopefully solve the overload problems (?) they've been having. Anyway, been assembling some assorted things offline. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Pro-War Lefties==<br />
A thing I've been meaning to write on - self-described leftists and outright Communists and such who eagerly take almost exactly New York's position on Syria as if Marx himself would do the same. This when the target is besieged by fundamentalist and imperialist nations for standing with Iran (state-run central bank) in resistance to Israel, once allied to anti-Imperialist victim of imperialism Baathist Iraq (state bank), maintaining a strong Socialist leaning and the only Arab country (?) with a Communist party both allowed and doing well, placing second to Ba'ath in the May 2012 Peoples Assembly elections. And there are those who would tell us the anti-imperialist struggle is the one waged by Syria's youths with those bearded chins and shaved upper lips, and some of Libya's and Saud's rejects and Salfists from some 40 other countries, funneled and armed by Turkey and NATO, riled up by reactionary genocidal Gulf imams, its supposed leaders in Turkey recognized by the imperialist bloc, with Israeli air force help on occasion, and the al CIA-da cancer seeping into every slice made ... It's interesting to watch these people in action. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Louis Proyect<br />
Louis Proyect, an "unrepentant Marxist" has [http://louisproyect.org/2013/09/16/a-guide-for-the-perplexed-on-syria/ a guide for the perplexed on Syria], a list of guides he considers leftist who have penned convincing articles for the rebellion and against the regime. He derides "the Marxist purists who genuflect to Bashar al-Assad" and muses "How the “anti-imperialist” left can rally around a government capable of such depraved action is a mystery beyond comprehension." Capable of, accused of, same difference. One of his guides wrote:<br />
:''The main actors so far have been educated youth and unemployed youth seeking access to modernity ... many of the people in the streets are what I would call lumpen proletariat ... The other component of this movement comes from the lower middle class, especially young unemployed university graduates. ... because they have to live with their parents ...''<br />
To be fair, that's from 2011, but Proyect cites it in late August 2013, and offers elsewhere [http://louisproyect.org/2013/08/27/dos-and-donts-for-progressives-discussing-syria/ some "dos and dont's" for "progressives" discussing the war and hoping to do so in his style]. Included: <br />
:''DON’T obsess over al-Qaeda, Islamist extremists, jihadists, etc. ... DON’T let genuine concerns with US imperialism, Israel, Saudi, etc make you look at pictures and videos of dead children and think conspiracy. Bashar is an authoritarian dictator...'' <br />
... and probably did kill those kids and just leave them for rebels to find, again. After all, Proyect reminds us for context:<br />
:''[Asad's] record of resistance is a bit sketchy. Just remember he collaborated with the US on things such as CIA renditions. Just because the CIA is training a few fighters in Jordan or some anonymous rebel leader is quoted in some Israeli paper doesn’t mean this isn’t a legitimate Syrian uprising against a brutal regime.''<br />
As for how he gets so smart about what's going on, I don't know. I can say he doesn't seem open to new information. [http://louisproyect.org/2013/05/15/the-worst-atrocity-of-the-war-in-syria/ Highlighting "the worst atrocity of the war" in al-Bayda and Baniyas], he blamed the regime based on what activists said. When I pointed out in a comment that the victims were government-loyalist Imam who had called for all rebels to be killed a month before he and so many innocents were killed instead. He simply deleted that and pretended it didn't exist. Seems he learned some things from Stalin, anyway. I saved the comment, will dig it up and post here later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Side-note on the CIA rendition assistance: mainly seems to be Maher Ahrar ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar WP]). A Syrian-Canadian citizen, arrested on suspect intel as a possible AQ terrorist, sent by the United States to Syria instead of Canada, where he was held for a year, where the wikiperdia article says Arar "claims he was beaten for several hours and forced to falsely confess that he had attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan. “I was willing to do anything to stop the torture,” he says." With these forced confessions in hand, the article says, "the Syrian government later stated that Arar was "completely innocent." and "Syrian official Imad Moustapha stated that "We tried to find anything. We couldn’t". Syrian authorities also denied that they tortured Arar." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 15:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Clay Claiborne<br />
I've been wanting to put together such a list for a while, but by now, one of the intended targets is a fellow member of this wiki. Any thoughts on the best way to take advantage of that dynamic for the greatest learning potential and the widest public good? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Threatening new editors ==<br />
<br />
Hi Caustic Logic,<br />
<br />
My name is Lynton from the ShoutWiki Customer Support Team. I dropped by your wiki in a random check for vandalism and spam, and came across [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PavewayIV&oldid=9343 this message] that you left on a new editor's talk page.<br />
<br />
I am quite concerned that this is your approach to wiki administration. Blocking should never be threatened to new editors who are yet to make any contributions to your wiki. You should be encouraging new editors and offering to show them 'around' and how to get started contributing. What you have done here (and I can only assume previously) is simply discourage or even scare off participation from new contributors.<br />
<br />
You have chosen to start an open wiki here on ShoutWiki, and with that comes certain requirements for you to act in an open and collaborative manner. If you aren't able to uphold those ideals, then we may have to review the administration of this wiki, which is certainly not something that I would like to do.<br />
<br />
I am keen to hear your thoughts on this matter. Please respond on my talk page so that I am notified.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
— [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 04:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Our [[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy is Explained]] here on the Community portal page. Please share your thoughts there or on the [[A Closer Look On Syria talk:Community portal|talk page]]. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 05:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hi, Lynton! I wanted to say hi here and type out the response first. As Petri says, it's a policy we have, explained there ([[A Closer Look On Syria:Community portal#Sign-Up and Speak-Up Policy Explained|here]]). For my part, I'm the softie who was slow to block people at first. In fact I'm still vague what the problem with zombie accounts is, and at least as open as anyone to a change. And, in fact, as soon as I helped set that policy (I coined sign up and speak up!), it became less useful as real contributing members started showing up (but often still not speaking up right away) - I blocked one on accident (Claycali, see above) but we un-blocked him and I coaxed him back. So, we're enforcing loosely, giving benefits of the doubt and time. I certainly am keen not to chase away contributors of any sort, but we have the policy for some good reason. And I will now double-check that PavewayIV feels welcome as I hope, but with the warning in place until the three of us core folks agree to change it. Fair enough I hope? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 07:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks guys, I've read your responses and taken a look at your policy. I still have my concerns. If you are facing persistent vandalism or spam, then that is something we can assist you with, as we have a range of tools not available to wiki administrators to combat this. I've just blocked a number of IP addresses that have been problematic in the past. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have these issues again. That being said, I've seen your block log, and there are three entries for this month. The administrative effort to clean up after three accounts is hardly worth the massive disservice you are doing to this wiki by following this particular policy. I urge you to reconsider, and in the meantime I will consult with my colleagues regarding this particular policy. — [[User:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">Lynton</span>]]<staff /> <sup>[[User talk:Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Lynton|<span style="color:#002bb8">email</span>]]</sup> 03:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Hi Lynton. I created this wiki, although i'm not the one who proposed the policy in question. That was [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] who has [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Petri_Krohn a chest full of badges over at wikipedia] and knows what he is doing. We made sure that nobody goes unaware of the policy not only by the description you were already made aware of, but also by [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation-msg|a bold red message after account creation]]. The reason why there are only three blocks you have seen in October might have something to do with the fact that October wasn't a usual month at ShoutWiki. When signing up I've seen no "certain requirements" that would prevent us from cleaning the user list from zombie accounts, many of them easily to google as spammers, while giving clear guidelines to new users how they avoid to be mistaken as such. So, Caustic Logic did not really threaten the user, but gave him an additional reminder of our policy, I suppose because his name doesn't follow the usual pattern. Maybe we should keep in mind to do this in a friendlier manner, giving the benefit of the doubt not only by the action of an additional message, but also by the tone of it. Would that be better? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 10:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::We should have a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Welcome|Welcome]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template.<br />
:::As to the block log: No one has been blocked because of our "policy". We have one banned user, the "SEO Spammer". All the other accounts have been blocked as verified or suspected sockpuppets of this one user (or simply for spamming). How we identify sock puppets is an other story. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 18:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Stuff==<br />
===Absence Note===<br />
Just as Petri re-appeared, I disappeared. It's only been a day or so, but in case anyone's worried, I'm popping on at Fed Ex Kinkos for a minute to say didn't die. My ancient modem finally did. The new one should be here in a day or two and I'll be back then. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 04:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:<brag>Did I mention that I have fiber-to-the-home.</brag><br />
:Screw modems! In a previous life I connected about 1000 of my neighborhood homes to the Internet with fast Ethernet connections – for free. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 20:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::An interesting brag, but otherwise, whatever, I'm set up again. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
===formatting chat===<br />
As i've seen you added an supposedly internal Noura link, and i've fixed one or two already and saw also Petri fix one, here's a little smart-assery (so that you have your own talk page as well ;o)):<br />
<br />
An external link, like you used now, has the problem that should the wiki move at one point, those links are "hardwired" and have to get fixed manually (and they have that little symbol indicating them to be external). This is what you used:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Houla:Alleged_witnesses_for_a_government/Shabiha_attack#Noura.2C_15 Noura]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Single brackets, link, space, description. An internal link goes like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[Houla:Alleged witnesses for a government/Shabiha attack#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
Double brackets, name of the article, pipe, description. Relative, should URL change it will still work. And if the internal link goes to a different section of the same article, you can shorten it like this:<br />
<br />
<nowiki>[[#Noura, 15|Noura]]</nowiki><br />
<br />
--[[User:CE|CE]] 00:29, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Oh, I thought that only worked when it had the exact name of a whole page. Will practice and keep in mind. Thanks for the smart-assness, hope to be just as smart-assed someday. :) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] 09:01, 26 September 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
===What's wrong with front pages?===<br />
(moved from [[Talk:Talkalakh massacre]])<br />
I just went to create a front page before someone created a re-direct, but was too slow. I see it does appear under "All Pages", so that's cool. But I still find a slight problem in that talk pages don't show up under "new pages." Anyone looking there will think we have no such page and move on. I prefer the MO I usually use of having a stub page with a hard re-direct to talk. Most subject warrant and get some kind of front page past the stub, eventually. A request, or alternately, invitation to debate reasons. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:The redirect is there partly because it is included in [[:Category:Massacres]]. Without it it would be really difficult to find this talk page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 10:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::I think I see that. You'd have to know to look under T, for Talk, not T for Talkalakh... Hmm, odd example to use this on. Same problem though for Houla but worse -skip to "the." The idea of a prominent re-direct is to re-direct people and minimize that problem. It can be missed by a sloppy reader, so the automation would help with that. And some people just won't look at two pages. Hmmm... Ah, I'm tired. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 12:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::What is the problem? The category is in the redirect, not on the Talk page. '''''T'''alkalakh massacre'' is listed under '''T''' in [[:Category:Massacres]]. The italics in the category view mean it is a redirect, not a real article page. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 17:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Oh I don't know. I'm still tired. Never mind. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: That's timely, I was meaning to say something about an I think unfortunate development. I first liked the idea of having a talk page before an article page, but not to the extent it is happening now. Most of what is on our long talk pages belongs on the front page. Wiki pages are not meant to be static anyway, they develop. And it's very difficult for people to extract information out of our mixed Information-Chatter-Information style pages as they are now. For example the amazing work you lately did with the Homs stuff, most of that is more than ready to be on the front page, minus a few subjective remarks and all the signatures scattered around. I encourage us to do more work directly on front pages again and use the talk pages only for what they are meant to be: Talk - about certain unclear details, scopes of articles, specific research that needs input of others, etc. Otherwise it's really a waste of energy and counter-productive, as likely nobody will go through the mess and extract the info after the topic is cold and everybody wandered off to the next. In this spirit I started the Adra front page. :o) --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 11:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::You're totally right, mainly. I think between front page material and the usual talk page stuff is a zone of semi-fluid detailed stuff ... that should just be squished into the talk page category. But some can be cut out and moved, and some stubs graduated. It's been an issue for a while, because it'll probably take a while to move much. Anyone can feel free to move my stuff (because so much of the chatter is mine), Homs Massacres is ready to move today or so, though in that case I want to clean it up along the way. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: First of all, so much (like everything) of the '''content''' is yours and there is no reason to not put it directly to the front page while you are researching it. We others can correct little stuff like typos etc without being shy about it, and factual/etc disagreements can be raised on the talk page if they appear. This also goes to our "new" members: Don't be shy to add to front pages. There should be, for example, a paragraph somewhere about those Higgins/Hersh/etc controversies, where new stuff can be added by a factual statement ("in return Higgins had no problems to publish an article at the established Foreign Policy website" with a [[A_Closer_Look_On_Syria:Community_portal#Basic_Formatting|reference]] to that article). So that in time there will be something that is informative and grows with the development without further need to edit. Like for example the section of the Ghouta thing I took care of on the front page, the Sellström investigation. Just had to [http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_21,_2013&diff=9969&oldid=9708 fix the tense and add a link], and voila. You noticed that the final report was released? --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 01:34, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::Cool, I scanned the report. Almost said something, but it wasn't enough to bother. Something like I look forward to analysis of this, it seems quite interesting. As for talk page use, one thing I started to say above - there's issues of contention, opinion and discussion, collaborative research, and maybe "workspace" has been a crutch, but there's also another use I should fish for thoughts on. Some stuff is worked-out, but I feel like it's just too detailed for the casual reader and should just get a summary up-front and more space in the rear. But just typing this out I think the answer is oh well, that's why there are section breaks, etc. It should go up front. Right? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::: To drive this home: I am the "super admin" here, just because I technically started this wiki (I could theoretically change its name or the background color). Me, Caustic Logic and Petri Krohn are the three admins here and that core team will stay like that for the foreseeable future. We are not in any form moderating on-topic content, as long as it is based on information and not just baseless slander. Everybody is entitled to start new pages about topics they are interested in, and add to existing topics in a reasonable manner. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 03:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::: Seconded. Instincts against stepping on peoples' toes are good enough, but that can go too far. Anything helpful with new pages, edits and re-arrangement on old ones, etc. is probably cool. It's my toe you'd step on half the time, and I'll probably catch and politely contest any changes I disagree with, but usually I'll just agree, I presume. And not to push off work except kind of. I'll be working on this stuff too. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 05:31, 15 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Okay, I've been thinking more as I work, still using talk pages as just workspace. One thing is if the research was a discussion it'd stay since it's talk. But I can't help it if no one else stepped in and the talk is monologue. I say this isn't wikipedia and we needn't follow their formula. Talk page can mean back page for chatter, all too-detailed info for a readable front page, and all that. But recognizing it's hard to sift through, anything important should go on (or at least be linked right from) front pages, which we need more of and more filled in. Two pages of space for each subject has been handy. CE, anyone else, what do you think of that perspective?--[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 06:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I'm not really sure if I get what you mean. My main point was that one (incl. you) shouldn't be shy to put stuff directly on the front page instead of collecting it with many signatures on the talk page. Mainly for future articles. So that the sorting-out you did rather successfully now re:Homs doesn't have to be done in the first place. By all means use the talk page for everything that helps your way of working. --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 18:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:: I was just thinking about it too much, and a bit wrong. I feel a front page deserves good standards I'm not always feeling up to. But you're right that it's easier to just do the work and revisions right there where people are most likely by habit to look. Saves some time with copying that, so far, often just never happens. Will keep working on that. And everyone else (including you) feel free to adopt and populate any front page you notice sorely lacking. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 02:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rooftop Massacre ==<br />
<br />
I'm not sure where to introduce this as a topic. As far as I can tell it's not on any page here.<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=36d_1366100603 Rooftop Bodies Aleppo]<br />
<br />
And associated video<br />
<br />
[http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=28b_1388119014 "Grenade Civilians"]<br />
<br />
It appears to be April 2013 in Aleppo and a score or so of soldiers blown up, shot, and beheaded, and possibly civilians as well --[[User:Charles Wood|Charles Wood]] ([[User talk:Charles Wood|talk]]) 08:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Thanks. It doesn't sound familiar, and a lot does fall through the cracks. I'm thinking back to April, Aleppo, and rooftops and I've zeroed in one one, through which alleged chemical grenades were dropped from a helicopter, or tossed by hand down an open stairwell... Strictly context. This is very interesting video. I'm not even certain these are the same scenes. I would imagine a scene like that - men trying to surrender on the roof of a smoking building, just blown away in cold blood - HRW or someone should have mentioned that. I'll check into it. And compare the videos to see if this is one or two rooftop massacres or one. Interesting, but maybe not its-own-page interesting. The best place to take a copy might be Siege of Aleppo, which I think still needs a front page. So [[Talk:Siege of Aleppo]]. Oh, and [[Other research]] is a good spot for recommendations. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 09:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
::::I started [[Other research#Aleppo Rooftop Massacre|a spot]] at other research. Whichever of us gets inspired first can copy over the links. I'll save analysis or additions 'til then or later. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Does this have some relationship with the bodies thrown off the roof of the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhVQiqoTtdw&bpctr=1388242598 Post Office in Al-Bab?] -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 14:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
:::Seems to be a different and more recent scene, and only one guy is apparently blasted off the roof (if the same scene, there must have been more blasts or something). About corresponds to the swarming of Sheikh Maqsoud district in Aleppo. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Some translations ==<br />
Awesome! Glad you're still around, Goran, right? If you don't mind, I put these on [[Translation Requests|the requests page]]. I'd like to have a record there, for reference/learning, improvement (if there's room). You put it here, so if you have reason disagree, you can hit "rollback" on the change, or say something and I'll fix it up. Otherwise, I'll leave it and soon re-organize into done and pending sections. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:38, 19 February 2014 (UTC)</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Balu&diff=11660User talk:Balu2014-02-20T12:41:50Z<p>Balu: </p>
<hr />
<div>Welcome, Balu! Feel free to introduce yourself with text on your User Page, or not. Actions are already speaking here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I promise to give a better introduction, but now I've got some work to do...<br />
:No worries where, or when, or if. I guess user page is best for "I am..." and this for "hey you..." but whatever works. Thanks again for joining and I hope to keep seeing your thoughts around here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:And, side-note - I've seen the name Balázs around a few times - doesn't seem rare. I'm not confident I know how to pronounce it right, but maybe. No phoenetic typing. Again, good to have you. As a regular reader, you'll know mainly you're a reader of my going on and on, so ... okay. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: the Aussies couldn't pronounce it. Try Google translate (I'm unable to insert the link, I've got to learn a bit this stuff), the pronunciation is almost correct. Actually, Balázs has a counterpart in English: Blaise (don't laugh, please :) ). -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Hello and welcome to ACLOS, Balu! I can even pronounce egészségedre, having been at the Sziget festival a couple of times! :o) --[[User:CE|CE]] ([[User talk:CE|talk]]) 12:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:: Guten Tag! :) -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Balu&diff=11656User talk:Balu2014-02-20T12:29:53Z<p>Balu: </p>
<hr />
<div>Welcome, Balu! Feel free to introduce yourself with text on your User Page, or not. Actions are already speaking here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I promise to give a better introduction, but now I've got some work to do...<br />
:No worries where, or when, or if. I guess user page is best for "I am..." and this for "hey you..." but whatever works. Thanks again for joining and I hope to keep seeing your thoughts around here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
:And, side-note - I've seen the name Balázs around a few times - doesn't seem rare. I'm not confident I know how to pronounce it right, but maybe. No phoenetic typing. Again, good to have you. As a regular reader, you'll know mainly you're a reader of my going on and on, so ... okay. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 11:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:) the Aussies couldn't pronounce it. Try Google translate (I'm unable to insert the link, I've got to learn a bit this stuff), the pronunciation is almost correct. Actually, Balázs has a counterpart in English: Blaise (don't laugh, please :) ). -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11655Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-20T12:18:31Z<p>Balu: Forget signature</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]])<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11654Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-20T12:15:01Z<p>Balu: "legitimate" barrel drop</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim.<br />
<br />
: Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation.<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11653Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-20T12:04:45Z<p>Balu: small addition about possible height</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim.<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11652Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-20T12:03:13Z<p>Balu: Misspelling...</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m. But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim.<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11651Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-20T12:02:42Z<p>Balu: Noisy barrels -> most likely projectiles, perhaps UMLACA.</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- [[User:Balu|Balu]] ([[User talk:Balu|talk]]) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that. <br />
<br />
:What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think. <br />
<br />
:AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact [[UMLACA]] rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." <ref name="Slate" /> Like a rocket maybe? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. Ff the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m. But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim.<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* Slate, Feb. 18: [http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] <br />
:''Barrel bombs have been used in Syria since mid-2012 but in the past couple of months, the military seems to have settled on a uniform design for them. This isn’t to say that this is sophisticated technology.<br />
An analysis posted by one munitions expert on Eliot Higgins’ Brown Moses blog—an essential clearinghouse for information on Syrian weaponry—argued that “it is evident from visual observations that there has been little to no quality control on these designs because of the many shapes and sizes that have been observed. There appears to be clear design trends that clearly show that Syrian personnel have no weapon design and effects training.” In other words, they’re far less effective than conventional bombs.'' <ref name="Slate">[http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/18/barrel_bombs_what_makes_syria_s_brutally_crude_new_weapon_so_effective.html Syria's Brutally Crude New Weapon] By Joshua Keating. Slate, February 18, 2014.</ref><br />
<br />
* [http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/12/syrias-barrel-bomb-technology-relative.html Brown Moses] (as cited above)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Balu&diff=11641User talk:Balu2014-02-20T05:20:44Z<p>Balu: </p>
<hr />
<div>Welcome, Balu! Feel free to introduce yourself with text on your User Page, or not. Actions are already speaking here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I promise to give a better introduction, but now I've got some work to do...</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Balu&diff=11640User talk:Balu2014-02-20T05:20:32Z<p>Balu: </p>
<hr />
<div>Welcome, Balu! Feel free to introduce yourself with text on your User Page, or not. Actions are already speaking here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
I promise to give a better introduction, but now I've got some work to do...</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:Balu&diff=11639User:Balu2014-02-20T05:19:07Z<p>Balu: very short introduction</p>
<hr />
<div>Greetings to everyone. I'm a regular reader of yours, from Hungary. I'm a computer programmer and by no means a "security expert" or "intelligence analyst", but - being an engineer - I have a certain scientific background. And I believe I'm good in what one can call "common sense" and "bullshit detection". I lived in Sydney, Australia for a year in the 90s. Balu is short for Balázs, a name unpronounceable to English speakers. Perhaps later I write more about myself, secrecy is useless anyway nowadays, the NSA folks read this much sooner than you.</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Balu&diff=11638User talk:Balu2014-02-20T05:18:49Z<p>Balu: damn, i realised i shoud put this text to the user page</p>
<hr />
<div>Welcome, Balu! Feel free to introduce yourself with text on your User Page, or not. Actions are already speaking here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Balu&diff=11637User talk:Balu2014-02-20T05:18:08Z<p>Balu: very short introduction</p>
<hr />
<div>Welcome, Balu! Feel free to introduce yourself with text on your User Page, or not. Actions are already speaking here. Cheers! --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 23:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
Greetings to everyone. I'm a regular reader of yours, from Hungary. I'm a computer programmer and by no means a "security expert" or "intelligence analyst", but - being an engineer - I have a certain scientific background. And I believe I'm good in what one can call "common sense" and "bullshit detection". I lived in Sydney, Australia for a year in the 90s. Balu is short for Balázs, a name unpronounceable to English speakers. Perhaps later I write more about myself, secrecy is useless anyway nowadays, the NSA folks read this much sooner than you. I promise to intend this paragraph properly soon.</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11630Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-19T16:17:32Z<p>Balu: Put references to the end</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]</div>Baluhttps://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aleppo_%22Barrel_Bombs_Massacre%22&diff=11629Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"2014-02-19T16:16:52Z<p>Balu: /* Does it make any sense? */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues. <br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
===SOHR Reports===<br />
* Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] <br />
:''Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.'' <ref name="SOHR_12_15">[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/462188050556205 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre] Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Facebook post, December 15, 2013</ref><br />
Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/466330660141944 Syrian Observatory for Human Rights] on Facebook, December 24, 2013<br />
:''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.<br />
:''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.<br />
:''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.<br />
<br />
[https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/467861539988856 SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28]<br />
:''Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.''<br />
:...<br />
:''Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y''<br />
::Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* December 29: [https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/468246093283734 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo]<br />
<br />
:''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters''<br />
<br />
:''In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.''<br />
<br />
==Etc.==<br />
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBLZuD_LHL8 للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sP9K9XR72g mirror] (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:<br />
:''Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house.'' --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic]] ([[User talk:Caustic Logic|talk]]) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sources ==<br />
* [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/deadly-syrian-bomb-strikes-crowded-aleppo-market.html Deadly Syrian Bomb Strikes Crowded Aleppo Market] – ANNE BARNARD, ''New York Times'', December 28, 2013<br />
<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/SyrianPerspective2/posts/630273200351682 Syrian Perspective] – January 8, 2014<br />
:''The Syrian Air Force has utilized barrel bombs to penetrate through the terrorist tunnels and underground bases. The barrel bombs are heavy and extremely effective - they have been primarily used in Hanano. Hanano is a volatile area and it is still under terrorist control. By obstructing the underground movement of the terrorists, the SAA is slowly forcing them to fortify positions above ground, creating an issue for the terrorists as the SAAF bombards their positions from the sky.''<br />
This is directly related to the use of [[UMLACA]]s in Zamalka. I still believe the rocket are SAA weapons used to collapse the tunnels between Ein Tarma and Zamalka. -- [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohn]] ([[User talk:Petri Krohn|talk]]) 01:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references /><br />
<br />
[[Category:Aleppo]]<br />
<br />
== Does it make any sense? ==<br />
<br />
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.<br />
<br />
Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing.</div>Balu