Talk:Houla Victims: Shumariyeh/Shomaliya

Slogan Translation
Crowd-sourcing time! Or, is it already solved? I'm looking at it, and I brought "Felix" into the loop. It's not automatic going. Two more heads reside here so far. Again, the words seen at a massacre site that could be the Alawite Abdullah family:



I was trying to look at it letter-by-letter, and you can try too, just pull up an alphabet chart and follow along. But even that's not so clear. Is this one letter or two? Middle of one word or beginning of next (affects the form greatly)? Is that a loop or a hump? Etc. Bottom line first. I thought that reads, starting, Aleph, Kaaf (K sound, written poorly, in the alone form as seen [here])... etc. Blundering. Thankfully, Felix suggests لجيش, Al-Jeesh, army. The kaaf would be a Jiin (middle-of-word form), making the J sound, but with some extra thing above it I can't explain. So that might be what's written. Following, I had no guess yet, but Felix suggests الحرة - Hurrah - free. Sloppily written, I can see this as one of the clearest fits, if missing the last thingee.

So, "something, Free Army" might be what's written. The "something." I thought it might be Syrian; the first part might be a siin, and it could almost be "Syria" something, but the word "Syrian" it doesn't seem to be. And of course "Free Army" without "Syrian" is how it's usually said around there anyway. Felix points to a video title مذبحة داريا  من هنا مر الموت (Darya massacre from here over the death). The part "من هنا مر" "from here over" (per Google translate) is a very good fit with what we see. What it means is not totally sure. Possibly "from here on out," "forever."

In the video title, I don't know what that means, but what could be "from here on out, Free Army" is painted at the scene of this heinous crime. Can't spell out the Google pronunciation for that first part, but it ends with an "ah" sound, a handy rhyme with Hurrah, giving the translation plausibility as a slogan (the 5-4 syllable mismatch is not a problem - rhythm fixes things like that instinctively). --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Translation: FSA Rulez! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:11, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * A simple Google search for "من هنا مر" shows this to be a SFA slogan. I will start with less important:
 * #3 in the search results is this photo on Flickr, with the text "من هنا مر التاريخ" which Google translates as "From here throughout history". I guess this means simply "forever" (This is the only top result that is nopt related to the Syrian insurgency.)
 * Result #4 is this photo on Flickr by DoumaRevolution, another massacre channel.
 * Result #5 is this FSA photo from April 22, 2012 on Flickr of a captured Syrian tank, with the slogan "من هنا مر الجيش الحر", which Google translates to "From here over the army free".
 * Result #2 is the Darya massacre video from a pro-SFA YouTube channel you mentioned.
 * Result #1 is getting too close for comfort! It is this YouTube video of a damaged mosque by SHAMSNN from May 11, 2011. If I remember correctly SHAMSNN has also published Houla Media Office material. The latest video, published just half an hour ago, features our Media office host Suleiman.
 * The whole phrase might be من هنا مر التتار which Google translates to "From here over the Tartars". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Searching for the whole phrase "من هنا مر الجيش الحر" brings an interesting video as result #3. You can see a very similar graffiti at 2:19.
 * Shabiha break and steal and then write from here over the army free – Published on Aug 29, 2012 by كنت شيعيا للاسف
 * I do not see the Syrian Arab Army stealing or writing graffiti, but how do I know – maybe they did it just before chasing away the SFA. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

If you read the US Army counter insurgency manuals you see that one of the most important tasks of the "regime" forces is to paint over rebel graffiti. The army or the shabiha do not go around spraying graffiti – it is unlikely they even have spray paint cans. Graffiti is always a clear sign of rebel presence. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:45, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The law of reverse psychology I just now codofoed says as soon as you can say it's a clear sign, it can also be used by others for that same reason. I tend to agree with you, that this is the rebels just being arrogant, knowing that even if SANA shows it, the world will dismiss that as a "regime" lie and they won't suffer a bit. And it still sends its message to the people inside Syria who surely know what it means. I don't see how to prove it, however. The manual is good evidence, but far from airtight. The example digging was quite useful. Thanks! Looks like we (Felix) called it right. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:43, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The correct expression would be to say that graffiti is a prima facie sign of rebel presence. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Fancy buildings
The supposed location has some extremely fancy buildings. Does getting paid well by the government make you an Alewite? -- Petri Krohn 11:02, 6 October 2012 (EST)

Not necessarily, but I imagine being an Alawite and living in a fancy building might make you Shabiha. Not thew additions coming up in a few minutes. --Caustic Logic 18:22, 6 October 2012 (EST)

Names
Dropped the name of the place into youtube (corrected me to Shoumariyeh), here is Syrian TV with victim names. Sounds something like Mohammed Al-Binawi with his wife and six children, and ... no idea how to spell that ... with his son. CE 11:53, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * Very good, had a listen. First name might be Mohammed Abu Nehi (?) and the other I hear "Rata Velo" (?). Will be added shortly. The video of course is highly valuable stuff I'm just now seeing. --Caustic Logic 18:24, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * And of course, it could be: "The source mentioned that the terrorists brutally killed Mohammad Abdul-Nabi Abdullah, his wife and six sons in addition to the citizen Rateb al-Oulo along with his son." (SANA May 26) The video specifies the son's name as something like "Intha Villij";) --Caustic Logic 18:55, 6 October 2012 (EST)

Map?
There is a map in this blog with the al-Shumariya area highlighted. It may be worth transcribing and transliterating the Arabic script. --
 * Al Houleh Massacre: An Everlasting Agony
 * Petri? I guess I missed this, but did check the link elsewhere and saw it. Just now added. Good find. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:47, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Transcription
 * ḥā’-yā’ (Al)-nūn-’alif-ṣād-rā’-yā’-tā’ – "حي الناصرية" – "Al-Nasiriyah district"
 * ḥā’-yā’ (Al)-mīm-shīn-fā’-’alif maqṣūrah (Al)-wāw-ṭā’-nūn-yā’ – "حي المشفى الوطني" – "neighborhood of the National Hospital"
 * ḥā’-yā’ (Al)-shīn-dāl – "حي الشد" – Should this be "حي الرشد" "district of majority"?
 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:19, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a pretty good reading. Haya or Hay means neighborhood/district, as we learned in Libya. Which is the red district? In order, left-to-right, I presume? That would make haya al-Shindal (?) the one with possible Al-Shumariyeh in it? I don't know what to make of it. Perhaps majority. Meaning, perhaps, the favored minority - Alawites - in a strange admission? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:51, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Red is #1, Al-Nasiriyah. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah ... majority then goes with the Saad Road area and could well mean 'of the dead.' --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Al-Nasiriyah neighborhood
A search for "Al-Nasiriyah district" Taldou pops up the following news item from around November 19, 2012: Facebook
 * "كما استهدفت الجهات المختصة تجمعاً للمسلحين في مزارع حي الناصرية بمنطقة تلدو بريف الحولة مما أدى إلى مقتل أربعة مسلحين هم (حمود العليات متزعم المجموعة– حسام الحسين– ماجد العبد– صفوان بكور) وجرح آخرين عرف منهم (فطام بكار وأسامة بكار) وتدمير عدد من آلياتهم ووسائل تنقلهم."


 * Translation
 * Also targeted the competent authorities gathering of militants in farms neighborhood Nasiriyah area Tldo Brive Hula killing four gunmen are (Hammoud Alaliat Metzam Group - Hossam Hussein - Majid Al - Safwan Bakkour) and wounding others knew of them (weaning Bakkar and Osama Bakar) and destroyed a number of their vehicles and means of movement.

Do we know any of the people or groups mentioned? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:33, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We know a hassan hussein as video reporter, a nidal bakour as rebel leader and three bakours as fsa guys (Akram/a ~ Osama? Maybe not). btw, documents.sy was hacked or something and lost two weeks worth of news. Came back on the 20st. --CE (talk) 11:09, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * CE knew Mr. Hussein, now we do. Sounds almost like the same exact guy here. Bakour is a prevalent name there, and it's possible Bakkar is the same name coming through differently. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * HH has been active on youtube today, published the latest Friday demonstration yesterday and a little Hula-Demonstrations propaganda medley two days ago. Monther Hrfosh is missing since Oct 30, though. --CE (talk) 20:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, this report makes sense if Nasiriyah (incidentally, it means Nazareth, or one from there, doesn't it?) is the area of al-Shumariyeh, or that area we've been calling that. It's high ground, a place rebels like to get to and hold to hit anyone below, but where there's a lot of open space to get surrounded in and killed if someone comes up from a surrounding area. The map says that's the area either way. It doesn't help us say it's where the Alawites lived, and the added name actually complicates it a bit (the village within the district?). But it suggests someone was massacred there, just off the Rastan rebels' eastern entry point into Talldou. AND, it adds another possible location for Shumariyeh-west of the Abdul Razaq homes,in that other area shown as having victims we don't yet know about. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Or one that follows Nasser. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On my trip through the wikimapia labels for the "connecting the dots" page I had found Al-Nasariyah - where the rebel defector said some rebels had gathered preparing the attack on main street. It is north of what we call Shumariyeh, and at the foot of the hill - where Suleiman and the guys start their expedition to the water tower. Here is "Nasariyah square" on wikimapia. I think it would make sense that two neighbouring little aggregations of buildings would be called Nasariyeh and Shumariyeh - even if I have no idea what the meaning is, just by the sound. Anyway, Nasariyeh is in the red area on the map, regardless of if our Shumariyeh is really Shumariyeh. --CE (talk) 19:50, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's right, I remember you pointing out that area, now, and it being called Nasiriyah. That's in, anchoring, the area in red, Nasiriyah district. You're right, the two names sound good together, like a set. So who was killed in that area? No one we know of acknowledged by the rebel side, right? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Video
This must be the video: حمورية (Hmouria) seems to be somewhere near Damascus. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In Hmouria 1 6 2012 massacre of an entire family at the hands of Assad forces (‫حمورية 1 6 2012 مجزرة بحق عائلة كاملة على يد قوات الأسد‬)
 * Hmouria 06/01/2012 massacre of an entire family at the hands of forces Assad 1
 * Must be which video? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Which video?
 * I have seen this before, wasn't this supposed to be the Houla Massacre? Anyway the title says "Hmouria" = Shumariyeh. Besides, the pile of bodies looks very similar to the Shumariyeh bodies. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Totally confused here.


 * 1: Never seen it before, and I've seen many (most?) Houla massacre (victim) videos. Not a question.
 * 2: Where does Hmouria = Shumariyeh? Phoenetically? Possible, but would need something else to even suspect it ...
 * 3: how does that person's head keep moving? Aren't they dead?
 * 4: I'm not sure what the Shumariyeh victims look like. Best guess, maybe, the ones SANA showed while naming the village (and seen nowhere else). These people are different, I think. There's a kid among them, and a baby, and the woman (?) in black is different. The other possible body arrays are even more different, I think. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Looking back, I remember the woman whos head keeps moving was claimed to be from the Daraya massacre. With an upload date of Jun 5, 2012 that cannot be possible. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

On the transcription: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:20, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * mouria = mariyeh (French vs. English transliteration)
 * Hbihh = Shabiha
 * -> Hmouria = Shumariyeh
 * I can see how that makes sense. H and Sh should clearly be distinct, not being vowels. But, eh... Worth a google search. The kids loaded in a van, posted June 2, dated June 1: 18+ HMOURIA, SYRIA. MASSACRE of an Entire Family by the Forces of Assad(2) 01-06-2012 another posting agrees, posted ON June 1 (though there could be older postings-Souria2011archive doesn't usually run things the first time, but after copying from someone else). Still, apparently post-Houla, wherever it it is. "Harasta Hmouria and Erbeen in Damascus countryside," says this page. Plenty bad things happening there, running back at least to January. As for Daraya re-branding, were you the one viewer who watched this Daraya era re-postof the video, under the same name, including date? :)


 * The video now has two views. How do you know I was the other one who saw it? (Don't remember seeing it.) Copy,
 * Yes, they are the same children. Copy -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2012 (UTC)