Talk:Aleppo "Barrel Bombs Massacre"

In December, 2013, daily reports out of Aleppo claimed a remarkable number of civilian deaths from increased aerial bombardment with explosive barrels. By December 24th there were reports that over 360 people had been killed so far in these attacks by the Syrian military. This page will be dedicated to collecting these reports, and examining the evidence behind them, and related issues.

Does it make any sense?
I find it strange that almost no one has pointed out that these press reports, taken at face value, don't make much sense. I couldn't find even a single well documented case. What I could find was contradictory and unconvincing. They have all the marks of the usual bullshit disseminated by the mainstream media and the SOHR, the one-member group. Just a bit of common sense: why on earth would a real, trained army use improvised devices when they have normal bombs. If they want to bomb indiscriminately, conventional artillery will do the job, without risking helicopters and improvising bombs of dubious quality. Improvisation is the consequence of the lack of means. The SAA doesn't seem to be short of supplies.

Anyway, they want us to believe that the SAA lacks conventional bombs, uses quite crude IEDs and a rather sophisticated delivery method (ie. helicopter, with its personnel, fuel, and maintenance requirements) that is out of reach for the 99,9% of humankind. They supposedly position the helicopter above the target, not very high because when you aim and drop this way you can't move nor be at height. So they risk the aircraft and the trained pilot in a situation where even conventional handheld weapons can hit the chopper not to mention flak and the numberless MANPADS known to be in possession of the "rebels", for achieving a very dubious military goal. Not very convincing. -- Balu (talk) 16:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Interesting thoughts, some I've had myself. First, I haven't looked into or learned much, so from a position of ignorance, I'm not sure If the weapon makes sense or not. If a crude weapon works okay and is cheap (like the UMLACA) they might use it. OTH, barrel bombs are a lot like the canister bombs rebels make for the roadside, but bigger. If we had proof they were actually being dropped, it must be from helicopters, etc (or rolled from a tall building onto a shorter one?). I wouldn't rule it out. Otherwise, they could be just set somewhere and blown up, and rebels could do that.


 * What has been striking me as making no sense is the huge number of civilians they keep killing day after day. This is against their normal MO, where human shields slow them down (these are the places they wind up slowly sieging instead). That they would drop these things, kill 20 civilians at a time, and keep doing that, makes no sense unless you think they're just heedless and evil. Which some do think.


 * AFAIK they're just blowing up or stabbing prisoners and blaming the barrels, which might be real and effective where they are used, and thus got rebels pissed off at them, and blaming them for crimes they didn't do. Warrants more study. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * One explanation for the barrel bomb is that the helicopter would simply zero in using GPS coordinates. It still does not explain how the helicopter avoid flak fire. Could be, that some of the barrels are in fact UMLACA rockets. -- 00:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Balu, I read too quick earlier and didn't appreciate the good technical points against this tactic. I'm still agnostic, but considering it solidly challenged on the logic front. If there's video of one falling from a helicopter that would trump this, of course. As for UMLACAs, it could be. This activist talking to Slate was careful to connect it to helicopters and their sound, but said ""The barrels are huge and very heavy, so when they fall you hear this sound like they're tearing through the air. I don't know how to describe it." Like a rocket maybe? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Adam, you may be right with this UMLACA. If the barrels have audible noise when going through the air, I'm pretty sure they aren't just dropped. Rockets and mortar projectiles have (sometimes quite characteristic) noise (whistle etc. we should ask a soldier), but not (heavy?) barrels dropped from - say - 500m (and this height is in my opinion much too high for any meaningful targeting). But first of all some firsthand evidence is needed, eg. at least a single video of an actual barrel drop from a chopper and a subsequent explosion. Currently, there's no such evidence (just bullshit). A well known pseudo-expert who goes by the name of Brown Moses claims to have seen footage of drops taken from inside the helicopters, but these videos were later got deleted from YouTube, a very dubious claim. -- Balu (talk)


 * Oops, I can easily imagine a completely innocent situation when an SAA chopper drops some kind of barrels. There are a lot of besieged areas that the SAA supplies via air, with helicopters. Supplies often come in barrels. And perhaps when a chopper gets into trouble (flak, MANPAD, whatever) it may get rid of some supply to make its escape easier. So a footage of a chopper dropping barrels doesn't mean anything in itself. Disclaimer: I'm no security or military expert and I've not been a soldier either, so the above is a kinda speculation, hopefully "informed" speculation. -- Balu (talk)

SOHR Reports

 * Aleppo "explosive barrel massacre" - starting material: SOHR Facebook post, Dec. 15 SOHR 14 children killed in the explosive barrels massacre
 * Aleppo city: 22 civilians, including 14 children, were killed by the regime helicopter bombardment, using explosive barrels, on the Haydariya area, Ard al-Hamra and al-Sakhour. The number of those killed by this morning's bombardment is likely to rise due to the large number of people severely injured. Helicopters also bombarded the Salhin neighbourhood and parts of the Tariq al-Bab, Karm al-Beik, Qadi Askar and al-Firdous neighbourhoods, near a field hospitals being used as a base by rebel groups.

Video is provided for two other airstrikes in Aleppo, but not this one. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Syrian Observatory for Human Rights on Facebook, December 24, 2013
 * ''364 killed in the nine days of barrel bombs on Aleppo
 * ''The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 364. The victims include 105 children, 33 women and 30 rebel fighters.
 * ''In the face of such a large number casualties by the continued air bombardment, the SOHR urges the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations to work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence.
 * ''The SOHR considers all actors who do not work to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war.

SOHR Facebook, Dec. 28
 * Aleppo province: 25 civilians, including 2 women, 4 children 2 teenagers and a media activist, were killed by barrel bombs dropped by regime helicopters on the vegetable market and the by a hospital in the Tariq al-Bab neighbourhood of Aleppo. the number of dead is likely to rise because of the large number of injured.
 * Victims of the barrel bombs on the vegetable market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhMXNc-De5Y
 * Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Who is it that's been killing media activists? Random bombs or more targeted? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * December 29: 517 people killed in two weeks of barrel bombs on Aleppo


 * The number of casualties killed by the continued regime helicopter and airforce bombardment on Aleppo city and its countryside since 15/12/2013 has risen to 517. The victims of the shelling: 471 civilians(including 151 children, 46 women), 34 rebel fighters and 12 ISIS fighters


 * In the face of continuing large number of casualties by the air bombardment, the SOHR renews its demand that the International Community and the Secretary General of the United Nations work immediately on a ceasefire to end this indiscriminate violence. We consider all those who have not worked to end the massacres taking place in Syria as complicit in the war crimes that come out of this war. We also call for the referral of this and all other war crimes committed in Syria to be taken to the International Criminal Court.

Etc.
In comments, I mentioned needing to see the bodies (when "regime supporters" were asked to explain). A commentator there shared a video للإعلام مجزرة ضمير 8 شهداء وهناك المزيد لطفك يارررب2013 12 15 mirror (Gtrans: media massacre conscience 8 martyrs and there's more for your kindness Aarrrb 2013 1215 ) As I said in response:
 * Inconclusive. Those five aren't blown-up. They were somewhere smoky, seemingly hadn't changed clothes in a while, and people near them may have been blown up. I can see a lot of causes. I might start a page on this. I just looked at the Khalidiya massacre, Feb. 2012, might color my thinking. Regime shelling killed 138 people in 36 destroyed homes Feb 3/4, whole families just living there. But some were recognized as people taken captive by the rebels (allegedly, by locals who'll talk to SANA), and according to rebel records, the 138 victims are 100% male and 94% adult. That's prisoner segregation there. So who blew those prisoners up in their prison(s) in a rebel-held district of Homs? And don't dare look into the "Aqrab Massacre," vis-a-vis "regime shelling" killing prisoners in a smoky house. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)