Talk:Homs Massacres

Page Scope
The scope is negotiable. It could include all Homs province (which stretches way back into big areas where relatively little happens), or any of these more core areas: Houla, Qusayr, Rastan, Talbiseh, al-Ghanto, etc. I say Houla has a page, Qusayr has a page, and Rastan/Talbiseh could. Hama clearly could use its own place, perhaps including Rastan et al. This could get big enough just on Homs city, immediate suburbs, etc. The Abel massacre should be included, despite being between Homs and Qusayr orbits, since Baba Amr was emptied the day before and that's likely where the killers came from. Spots to the east not in anyone else's orbit could be included; I think that might cover Maksar al-Husn - nah, too far out, unless we can connect it to militants from Homs. Different thoughts welcome. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Manner of inclusion: general timeline with entries, links in most cases (depending how many entries we finally have). Most links for now will be to pages, but a lot of smaller massacres will need space short of a page, which will be a section on this page.--Caustic Logic (talk) 07:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

This might be a stupid page, best dome as one thread of the Homs answer to Life in Liberated Qusayr. Can be made mobile in time, so no big rush to judgment I suppose. Still a good spot to work out the massacres and a few related issues. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I've decided Rastan is too far off, too much in Hama's orbit, and too big with an orbit of its own, to include here. But at least up to and probably including Talbiseh should be included, certainly Ghanto, Jabourin, etc. Hama and Rastan and surroundings should get their own page in time, which could get huge. Idlib's page too will be insane if it ever happens and gets filled-in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Locations
The following map gives the range of districts in Homs as I could assemble it this early. The borders and labels are all per Wikimapia, some with ssome translation or shift to a spelling I'm using. I'm finding it useful enough to place things I run across, even with different spellings. Some borders left out for readability. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Color-coding: I felt compelled to color something, even though I don't have enough data yet to make some kind of demographic or protest-density infographic. Red clearly is the rebel hotbed, clearly visible. Purple = the big distruicts, somewhere ion which, the bigger massacres of February and March reportedly happened. Otherwise, blue = district as outlined on Wikimapia (note discontinuous al-Wa'er to the west) and green = outlying village, or green belt, depending. al-Sitteen street is a place cited where bodies were often dumped after murky assassinations. Different and more useful color-coding possible in time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Broader area map: The are shaded yellow and towns in it should be included here, I think. Surrounding areas with pages in green (Houla) orange (Qusayr) and red (Rastan). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Suggested Massacres to Work In
(formerly the unneeded copy of "full timeline")


 * Late December "Baba Amr Massacre" - In the days before and during a long-sought visit by the Arab League's observers to the rebel hotbed starting December 27, regime forces in and around the (rebel-held?) district went on a spree of Shabiha in-home executions and strange shelling. It's not yet clear who this does or should include, and who killed them, but there was in Baba Amr in those days a "sheikh" killed in fromt of a mosque, a former local head of the Ba'ath party and his wife, a little boy shot by "regime's forces" slapped across the hood of the Arab League's truck, and quite a few others, seem collectively worth a look. (section forthcoming) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure this counts. Will see when I look into it again. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I haven't made as much effort to find anything from the second half of 2012. But, while there aren't any famous enough I already know them, or saw them on the Wikipedia massacres page, it's sure there are a few worth adding when they become known. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Specific Events
Those with No Dedicated Page will be explored in sub-sections below, listed in chronological order.

Al-Assi River Massacre, Sept. 2011
September 24, 2011 (app.) This incident deserves a little space here. First, consider from Syria News - September 24, 2011 (Warning: Graphic Videos) the video (09-24-11) Al-Qusayr | Homs | (GRAPHIC) Massacre of Homs: Bodies in AlAssi River. (analysis needed, quantification of clues, etc. - could be placed) Al-Assi seems to be the main river running through the Green Belt of Homs, flowing north from the Mount Hermel area. Qusayr is specified, but it could be elsewhere. There is blood of executions at a small building, remains buried in shallow earth, removed clothing and shoes for at least a few victims, blood smears on the concrete, and faintly bodies under the water can be seen. Not loating on the surface yet? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Next, same day report, the video above is (09.25.2011) Homs | Martyr Safa Ghassan and signs of torture. It's not mentioned, but he visibly looks pulled out of a river, bleached white and water-logged skin, naked - dumped after receiving some nasty torture - dozens of holes all over his chest, sides, and one little hole each at the collarbone and lower neck. These are likely worsened by submersion in water (with its microbes and larger flesh-nibblers) but probably predate that. His right eye is perhaps removed under closed and flat lids, either by some fish, or some tormentors. Forehead injuries like from a rifle butt. Right hand sliced and maybe crushed, now puffing up black with decay. This man gets an entry at the VDC as a martyr, with a link to a different posting of this video, a fuller name - Safa Ghassan Tawakol - and a location, Bab Dreib, Homs. Martyrdom location, blank. Cause, shooting, 9/25. Plus there's quite the photo of the man, which doesn't look civilian except technically. Paramilitary - camo pants, khaffiyeh, gunner's vest, automatic rifle and that look. He's posing sternly, but in a living room. He seems prepare to fight the terrorists of Homs as a neighborhood Shabih, or for that matter like a rebel fighter, but he's listed as neither. Note that Safa is usually a woman's name. Having a woman's name is sometimes a Christian thing around Homs (see Sari Saoud, Maya Nasser). Christians in Bab Dreib don't usually side with the rebels. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

A river is not mentioned in Safa's entry, but he's apparently one of the bodies removed, apparently on 9/25 as recorded, and that given as death date. But it said bodies, plural. How many others were buried in the river and who were they? The helpful visuals stop there but I'm able to venture a guess of at least five others, and maybe 11 or more, for a total of 6-12. Martyrs (usually meaning killed by the "regime") offers five more possible companions: Detention - Torture Age 45. Notes: "arrested 23 sept. 2011 : martyrdom after torture"
 * Ahmad Sultan El Rahal Civilian - Homs Talbesieh 2011-09-25

2011-09-25, Detention - Torture. Notes: "arrested 18 august. 2011 : died under torture Given back to his family today"
 * Abdel Moin El Mokahal, Non-Civilian (Rank: Recruit). From Homs: Deir Baalabeh


 * Mohamed El Shiar, Civilian. Homs: Khedr. Died 2011-09-25, Shooting. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWy6GnlJwKk (no longer available)


 * Moatez El Shiar, Civilian. Homs, Bab Al Sebaa. 2011-09-25, Shooting

Video of the martyr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoO4Tpa3eIA (funeral)
 * Iyad Mohamed Bacchar Allouch, Non-Civilian (Rank: Recruit) from Homs: Khaledeyeh. Died 2011-09-24, Shooting. Martyrdom location:Homs: Qosair Notes: executed because he refused to fire on demonstrators

Note that two of these are actual military members. If we take the same pulled from the river date Safa was given as date of death, and check regime fatalities (suaully meaning killed by rebels) database, we get an interesting result. Sept. 25, nationwide, regime fatalities = 6 only, and apparently five of them were in Homs. Cited articles: http://syriamoi.gov.sy/new/index.php?req=552&cat=73 (dead) - http://drshadinasser.blogspot.de/2012/05/blog-post_3 Safa's Shabih commander?
 * Alfat Wajeh Naser: From Suweida, no details on location, likely unrelated
 * Adnan Mohammad Abd al-Kareem: killed somewhere in Homs, from Homs, Warrant Officer First Class
 * Ahmad Sha'ban Mahmoud: killed in Homs: Jeb al-Jandali 9/25 Warrant Officer Third Class
 * Ma'in Ahmad al-Salih: Killed in Homs - Baba Amre neighborhood 9/25 Policeman. Notes: "Personnel of Political Security Branch in Homs."
 * Muhammad Hassan al-Hoash Martyrdom location Homs - Baba Amre Rank Soldier. Notes: "Personnel of Political Security Branch in Homs"
 * Hassan Ali Eid: especially this guy. Age: 50. Area: Zahraa (largely Alawite, I hear). "Occupation: Head of" (redacted?) Rank: Civilian. Was he


 * And another at least: One victims marked "Personnel of Criminal Security Department in Qousair" was also killed on al-Qousair-Arjoun road Sept. 24. And again, Qusair was originally cited.

Best guess - 6-7 bodies at least, these five-six regime guys, Safa, and then whichever other tortured civilians were dumped in the river like him, alongside these unfortunate representatives of security in Homs. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Jinyat Family Massacre
Some notes: I've considered the Kamar Hamad video(s) perhaps the single most hideous thing I've seen yet, and as I originally noted here"don't even want to link to it," but of course the LCC post I cited has the video embedded right there, ready to accidentally hit play. So I can't hide it, so long as Youtube finds it fit to keep up what I hope no one considers any kind of porn. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

One guess with basis but high chance of being wrong: Mr. Jinyat was a wealthy businessman who ran the shoe factory nearby, was okay with the government and didn't support the rebels. He was slaughtered along with his two wives, daughter, son, and sister-in-law and niece (taken in after his brother was killed). Oh, and they were robbed along the way of everything valuable and portable. Surplus wives/widows and maybe the pre-teen were put in that category. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Halmouz and Ter-Maalleh Massacres
May 5, 2012, Ter Malla and Halmouz, near Talbiseh
 * LCC: Syria News - May 5, 2012 (Warning: Graphic Videos)
 * Video: "Martyrs of Halmouz and Teir Maalleh Massacres"
 * Homs: The northern countryside; Halmouz town: A mortar hit Halmouz town from the pro-regime town Jaboureen. Three individuals have been martyred immediately and they were displaced people from Karm Al Zaytoun. An injured man is in a critical situation. 

The bodies shown are charred. Ter Malea is just north of Duveir, Jabourin (placed for the bus attack, see below) is near Halmouz: a graphic video says "Syria, Halmouz +18 A mortar hit Halmouz town from the pro-Assad town Jaboureen. 5-5-2012" So it must be further north, closer to Talbiseh. It's all Homs area, close enough Khalidiya residents in numbers fled the violence there, only to have it quickly track them down anyway.--Caustic Logic (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Two others from May 5, not part of this massacres list are from "Teir Maalle" - Zakaria Mahdy Al-Rayes and Ahmad Joukhdar, age 29, shelled in al-Ghanto. The latter is sometimes an Alawite name - one "Jpkhdar" was shot at a rebel checkpoint "by accident." Listed as "regime forces." So apparently these are not the same -

Jabourin Bus Attack
September 19, 2013, near Homs and Talbiseh

19 people, most or all civilian and mosr or all Alawite, were killed when terrorists detonated a roadside bomb nest to two buses transporting people to the Alawite village of Jabourin, just north of Homs. Location: Ard al Jabburin on Wikimapia - right by Talbiseh, near the arbitrary cut-off line between Homs and Rastan orbits. Reuters reported "A roadside bomb killed at least 14 members of President Bashar al-Assad's minority Alawite on Thursday ... The blast targeted two buses near the Alawite village of Jabourin, 13 km (8 miles) north of Homs city, said Rami Abdelrahman, head of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. ... Citing a source in a local military hospital, Abdelrahman told Reuters that nine of the victims in Thursday's explosion were civilians while the others may have belonged to the National Defence Forces, a loyalist paramilitary group. He said that clashes broke out between rebel fighters and members of the NDF after the explosion.'' An AP report said "A Syrian official says a roadside bomb has targeted a bus in the country's central province, killing 19 people. The official at the governor's office in Homs province says Thursday's explosion in the village of Jbourin also wounded four people on the bus. He spoke on condition of anonymity in line with regulations. The village is predominantly Alawite, a minority sect to which President Bashar Assad belongs, but it also has Christians and Sunnis. It was not immediately clear why the bus was targeted.''

Family Names
Apologies for all the small, jerky edits here. I've been a bit confused but it matters less as the pages start taking shape. Here's one thing, a helpful spot for cross-massacre and side information on family names that pop up as needing it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Mando
This family is/will be mentioned prominently in at least two massacres covered here: (to move, to there) LCC Feb. 29 Syria News - February 29, 2012 (Warning: Graphic Videos)
 * April 5 Baba Amr and Houla
 * what I'll call "February 29, Sebil?"
 * Number of martyrs in Syria reached uptil now 29, 16 of them are in Homs including 5 from AlBahlak family and 5 from Docotr Mendo family including 4 infants and 2 women.

No further details in the text entries, but there is a video: Sabeel | The only child who survived the Sabeel Massacre Living and intact boy, age about 8 Something with his feet is being shown with chopping gestures - perhaps torture. There are no visible marks. Supposedly marks on his face they show with gestures, but they don't show up. He has an odd spot on the lower lip, either a wound they don't explain or a birth mark perhaps. (Not unlike Ali al-Sayed's bullet marks.) Chewing gum, perhaps, he seems distant and spaced out at first. Then he gets teary-eyed when speaking. An English-subtitled version of this video (I've seen it before, no link handy) has the boy asked where his family is. They're dead, we hear, but he insists they've just gone away, to Saudi Arabia, and will be back. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The VDC database does not reflect the LCC report except in part. Checking Feb. 28, 29, and March 1, there are no victims named anything like al-Bahlak. There are, however, five members of a Mando family on the correct day, including three children and a medical doctor. These five were killed somewhere in Homs (unspecified) on leap year day with so few exact anniversaries. Cause of Death for all, "Field Execution." Further searching required before I shelve this case. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Mohammed Mando AM, Occupation: Doctor (no further details).
 * Wife of Dr. Mohammed Mando AF, no further details
 * Son of Dr. Mohammed Mando 1 Son 2 Son 3, all Child - Male, no further details.

Further Mando Deaths (potentially related, not to be moved))
 * An adult male of the Mando family was among those 100+ civilian males killed in the Khalidiya Massacre by "shelling" on February 3/4.
 * Five Mendos: Three killed in two areas of Homs, Oct. 16 and 17, 2011. In June, 2012, a man in Homs, a woman in Douma, Damascus. The name does appear among martyrs, including rebel fighters, from Douma.
 * 32 martyrs named Mando, Mandou, and Mandow (plus 12 unrelated names, mostly an ill-fated Hamandoush one in Aleppo). From this:
 * Saber Mando was one of the few people killed by the alleged December 23, 2012 chemical attack in Homs. Another Mando, who'd been kidnapped, was executed eight days later.
 * Three Mandos, two women and a man, died in Zamalka from the Aug. 21 gas attack. Otherwise the name does not comes up connected with Zamalka.
 * I checked, especially in Zamalka, for other frequent Homs massacre names and saw few contenders. No broader pattern plus the area difference makes me I think this is a coincidence. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Two in Inshaat, Homs, killed by shelling on Oct. 10 and 22, 2013.
 * A man in Dablan, Homs blown up by an "explosive device" the other day, Dec. 13 2013.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Army Presence in Homs
One of my goals here is to lay this timeline of atrocities out side-by-side with the timeline of military presence vs. pull-back in Homs. I've been vague on that. The Wikipedia page plus what I'm reading elsewhere help little. Altogether, so far, there's disagreement in the record as to when the army pulled out, how fully, and for how long. Locals in al-Bayada in late November at the time of the The Killing of Sari Saoud claim there was no army there, then, but that may have been a local pull-back of a case of posts chased away - there was a serious rebel offensive in the preceding days. It seems in early December Syria agreed to pull back from Homs, did so soon after, and by year's end activists and Arab League observers alike agreed there was at least no visual military presence there. Allegations of army this and army that, snipers, incursions, and of course distance shelling, continued all throughout.

Wikipedia's page does note: "On 23 January, a military officer at the main city hospital claimed to foreign journalists that rebels have taken control over two-thirds of the city with army casualties being at 4 to 5 dead and 10 to 50 wounded soldiers and security officials per day." When the army allegedly unleashed artillery on Khalidiya on the night of February 3, citizens reported the dead shown on rebel video as relatives taken hostage. SANA reported:
 * “Had the army been here, our houses wouldn’t have been shelled and those innocent people wouldn’t have been killed,” said Da’d Darwish from Ikremah neighborhood, sobbing with fear and anger.
 * The citizens called on the Syrian army to enter the city of Homs to protect them from the crimes of the armed terrorist groups that have been killing and abducting citizens and shelling the houses and neighborhoods.

It's not clear just when they came back in on this popular request, but it was by the 28th of February they announced the full re-conquest of Baba Amr, well on the path to re-securing all of Homs. I don't believe they ever did agree to a pull-out of that type, ever again. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2013 (UTC)