Talk:Mass graves in Ukraine

Slavyansk
Something coming up? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Украина попытается выдать убитых карателями за "жертв террористов" (Ukraine try to pass punitive killed for "victims of terrorists") – Novorossiya, July 07

BREAKING: 8 unknow bodies found near morgue. All the usual allegations. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Human Rights Watch: Mass grave found in Ukraine – CNN / Anderson Cooper 360, July 24, 2014

American Kulak said... Also this, from a fanatically pro-Kiev anti-Russia source:
 * Did Strelkov's Men Really Execute 14 People in Slovyiansk?
 * Interesting piece. From the details there, I had to leave this comment:
 * Hmmm... less like Soviet purges, then, and more like the Libyans murdered mostly "for their cars," almost all black-skinned, killed by fleeing loyalists, executed and dumped around Tripoli in August 2011, as rebels overran it. Interesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Grave found

 * Mass grave in E. Ukraine: Terrorist torture or power cut-off in morgue? RT, July 26, 2014
 * The grave exhumation started on Thursday, conducted by authorities loyal to Kiev. They discovered 14 bodies - one of them female and the rest male, according to media reports.
 * Local residents told Human Rights Watch activist, Yulia Gorbunova, they had witnessed the exhumation of the grave on June 11. The city was in control of the militia at the time.
 * Bodies wrapped in cellophane were brought in by a truck in two runs and dumped in the grave, the witnesses said. Later in the day, the militias brought in two priests to the grave to conduct a burial prayer at it.
 * “We don’t really know who the people in this grave are and what happened to them. What is important is that there is an investigation,” Ole Solvang, researcher and security adviser for Human Rights Watch, told RT.
 * But Ukrainian officials didn’t even wait for the exhumation before saying the grave would produce evidence of atrocities committed by the militias.
 * “I met a police team of criminal investigators in Slavyansk. They discovered a grave of Slavyansk civilians tortured to death by the terrorists. There are dozens of them. They were cut and burned alive,” media presidential aide Yury Lutsenko said.

Zaporozhye

 * ''Moved to Talk:Ukraine war casualties

Location and control?
Minepit 22 Kommunarskaya is located about midway between Nyzhnia Krynka and Zhdanivka --Resup (talk) 12:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Non-Russian sources reporting this in English, as a main story: TeleSur Global Research (just citing Itar-Tass). AFP and RFE-RL include it in stories about the cease-fire. AFP reports "the Kremlin appeared ready to ratchet up tensions further by focusing state media on claims of the bodies of four tortured civilians being discovered in an eastern coal mine that had allegedly served as a Ukrainian military base. ... Both the press office of Ukraine’s eastern campaign and the National Guard — a part-volunteer force Moscow frequently brands as “fascists” — denied ever having control of the Donetsk industrial region mine." --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This seems to be only AFT photo of UN meeting, used in a publication by Malaysian Rakyat post.
 * Russia has sent its investigation committee, and also asked for international help to investigate. According to KP reports above, quoting locals, Ukraine forces were there, in Nyzhnya Krynka, from around 20 August, to some 3 days before KP publication, which would be around 20 September. Pro-rebel maps of military activities for that period,  show that Ukrainian forces were present;   Pro-Ukraine sources are not inconsistent/apper to show the same. --Resup (talk) 00:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I've collected both the "ATO" maps and the Kot-Ivanov/Hartin maps since mid August. Well, most of them. Comical Andriy's disinfo map is a complete joke and far too undetailed to have any value here. It shows the region in "rebel" hands all the time. As to the other maps. They start showing the region in "rebel" hands. Then, on August 18, "as a result of fierce fighting in Lower Krynka militia destroyed 32 units of military equipment". On the next map August 20 a mini-cauldron appears there. Two maps later it has disappeared and one map later indicates that fighting happened from 18-22.

Following maps show the region again in "rebel" hands, undisturbed. Then on August 31, the mini-cauldron appears again, with the description "As a result of strike by militia's artillery of the enemy's position, one tank, five armored vehicle, four vehicles with supplies of armor and fuel were destroyed. Additionally, up to thirty punishers were killed and wounded". Maps in early September show "rebel" artillery fire on the mini-cauldron. It stays unchanged until September 10, when Kot-Ivanov seem to have stopped (or paused) with their maps and someone else took over with far less useful maps.

It seems that the Slavyangrad team took it upon themselves to continue the English maps based on the Kot-Ivanov material as they reappeared on September 15, showing a now much larger cauldron with a corridor leading north-west out of the "rebel" territory. I read somewhere that this was kept open for the remaining troops to leave, but they refused for a while. The map of September 21 shows the cauldron disappeared and has two points saying that the troops left on Sep 20, 22:40h, and Sep 21, 20:09h.

To me this all sounds like it was initially a stay-behind Ukie unit that went unnoticed for a while hiding in that mine, maybe with the Aug 18-22 fighting being a supply convoy. --CE (talk) 11:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Organs Stolen?

 * Pravda.Ru Victims found in mass graves in Ukraine lack internal organs Sept. 25
 * According to Zakharchenko, an examination of the bodies showed that the victims lacked internal organs. However, he noted, it remains unclear whether the organs had been harvested at the time when the victims were alive or dead. 
 * ...Noteworthy, the Facebook account of Yulia Tymoshenko's former lawyer, Sergei Vlasenko, was hacked in July. His correspondence with German doctor Olga Wieber and commander of "Donbass" battalion of the National Guard, Semyon Semyonchenko, was exposed to the general public. In the correspondence, the sides discussed organ trafficking. Thus, in one of the messages, Wieber wrote in detail, which organs were needed: "17 hearts, 50 kidneys, new livers - 35 pieces, 30 pancreases and 5 lungs." Vlasenko responded with a promise to deliver all the organs. Vlasenko also wrote that Semenchenko should collect organs appropriately, not to deliver "bad quality" organs again. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know for a fact, but Olga Wieber story is likely fake, Die russischen Staatsmedien ergehen sich in dieser Übung, sie versorgen ihr Publikum mit einem geschlossenen Weltbild wie aus alten, totalitären Tagen. (When Cyberberkut is quoted, may be worth checking whether old story still there; with Pravda, it was last reliable perhaps a 100 years ago). Organ trade, in general, is still fairly probable as such --Resup (talk) 22:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Little surprise, I agree with that. The usual hacked FB leak exposes serious crimes, hints of doublecross and borderline comical idiocy in the same package, over and over. This is the formula again. I always doubt this scripted-sounding stuff. The organ removal itself, likely enough. Just this leak part is no good. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Pravda is John McCain favorite; however his resent publication there received such comments" Some were mostly perplexed that McCain chose Pravda.ru to publish his op-ed. In Soviet times, the "Pravda" newspaper was the official mouthpiece of the state, but it fell into disarray in the 1990s. There is now a newspaper version run by the Communist Party, but the Pravda.ru website is unrelated to the print edition. Ilya Yashin, leader of the opposition Solidarity movement said, "McCain obviously doesn't know that the Pravda.ru website isn't related to the Cold War-era newspaper," but is just a Kremlin-connected parody " rferl.org
 * Spiegel: Russland vs. Ukraine: Der Propagandakrieg (Von Moritz Gathmann, Moskau) --Resup (talk) 22:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Investigations

 * UN to Investigate: AFP, Sept. 27 (via news.com.au, via brisbanetimes.com. UN Human Rights Commission spokeswoman Ravina Shamdasani told reporters they were planning to send a team, pending security concerns, to investigate the site(s).
 * “There has been a lot of misinformation surrounding the whole thing,” she said, pointing out that the area where four bodies had reportedly been found had at different times been under control of Ukrainian troops and the rebels. “Both sides are pointing fingers at each other,” she said. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Somehow, it is of help to have common sense on, that Novorossia has no reason (of any sort, mental, cultural, practical, etc),  to kill their own civilians. (As Mozgovoi, opolcenie commander, once put, it is rather difficult to shoot at oneself) --Resup (talk) 12:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The same day, Ukraine announces its own sudden find of three mass graves it will likely insist have to be examined first. Kyiv Post snippet says "Ukrainian authorities" - perhaps recently - found three grave sites in or near Slavyansk, "which had been under the control of independence-seeking pro-Russian militia, officials said." The last is true, up until (how many weeks ago?) Since then, some say, has been something of a reign of terror under Kiev's occupation. And they know where to find dead people, as well as when to announce it. Hmmm.... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Slavyansk was "liberated" in early July. --CE (talk) 11:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As previously mentioned on Talk:Ukraine_war_casualties page, there is a documentary film by Alexandr Kots and Dmitry Stepashin. 'Farewell of Slaviansk', describing emerging UAF shelling tactics. At 17:18 'Drovosek' (woodcutter), a volunteer giving funerals to civilians in Slaviansk, talks about 5 killed civilians daily, half of them not identified.  This could be those. Also there were reports that when electricity was cut off, unidentified bodies were moved from a morgue to a mass grave, on or around 11 of June. "Drovosek" on the video is saying there is no electricity so he buries victims at once.  --Resup (talk) 13:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * An example of unbalanced reporting by human rights watch. This girl heard a story about one man killed, in unclear circumstances, and that another man vanished after a street fight. She concludes/implies that rebels kill civilians en mass, and that idea is now human rights reporting.  It does not cross her mind that some 5 per day civilians are killed by shelling, as she sticks to her 1.5 --Resup (talk) 13:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * That's pretty s**t reporting even by HRW's lower standards (they employ different standards in rotation, some are okay). "Independently, it is crucial to bring to light the abuses that happened in Sloviansk while it was under insurgent control." Two links to previous findings on that are provided. Thank God there's no reason to suspect, consider, or rule out violence by Kiev during its artillery and mortar and attack jet assaults, military takeover, or occupation. No hint that this is part of the picture at all, aside from the positive force of nature that ended the reign of terror. (disclaimer: HRW is owned by "New York," the parent company of the Kiev government ;) ) --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Aside from the investigation synch, this should move to Slaviansk section, a new one if warranted, when we figure out if this is at all new or just mentioned anew. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

A Russian-led international delegation visited the site on September 28th. This reminds me of Graham Greene's and Harrison E. Salisbury's visit to the Klooga concentration camp outside Tallinn exactly 70 years earlier. I have met or know two of these people personally. Dmitri Linter from Estonia and Alexander Brod from Moscow. Unfortunately neither of them is fluent in English, so my communication with these people has been very limited. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Иностранные эксперты побывали на месте массовых захоронений в Донецкой области – Channel 1 news, 29 September 2014
 * Lower Krinka. Human rights defenders in place of the Ukrainian army atrocities 28/09/2014 – Novorossiya TV
 * Interesting. Your contact has been limited, was limited, whatever... so you seemingly appear from nowhere? You've got a readership and a CIWCL and so on. You could ... well, I don't suppose they need much help, but ... eh, I'm sure you're keeping it in mind. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand that there were about 5 independents accompanying OSCE mission (selected in some way by somebody). People seen in Novorossia video are Энорст Гроныш (human rights activist from Latvia), Andre Brod (Director, Human Rights Bureau, member of human rights committee of the Russian President), Абдул  Яо  Никез, Independent Expert, International Law, Côte d'Ivoire ; Андрей Гульцев; Russian expatriates Society of France , and Europe; Наталья Николаева, Russian expatriates Society, UK. Criticism of the sort that they are not OSCE (or not pro-"Western" enough, etc) was raised. You may want to check  Catherine Fitzpatrick comments after Russia-insider article, if curious to do it , of course. A problem is that official investigators are not likely to make detailed public comments early on; but for investigation to be of any practical relevance, somebody   should care (enough people passionately enough). (And as usual, people yelling the  most  may be those who understand the least).That was the nature of expatriates comments in the video, that there is no/little sensible info in the Western mass media.   --Resup (talk) 15:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Another point is that OSCE is not going to assign blame, I understand that they do not have criminal forensic experts. There is Russian criminal investigation, they say civilians were executed by UAF and they have proof. (But if it is not international conclusion, perhaps it may be attempted to disregard this; and they are not going to be splashing info on social networks)--Resup (talk) 17:38, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Einars Graudins (Энорст Гроныш from Latvia) is getting some attention, with his reports now being misconstrued in a way that begs clarification. Apparently FM Lavrov got confused and said there were 400 bodies in these mass graves, when really it's 9+ and the 400 refers to unidentified bodies in area morgues. Further, some Russian sources are calling him an OSCE expert, with the organization denying any connection, leaving a vague impression that he's posing as one. And while most reports acknowledge he did visit the sites with the OSCE team, some point out "apparent contradictions" to question his assessment. (see Telegraph, RFE/RL) The 400 bodies, OSCE expert claims, and misattributed MH-17 victim photos have in recent days tricked the Western media into finally talking about the (technically) mass graves more than they would otherwise, but they've also caused some confusion and give a couple new, lazy excuses to ignore and downplay the emerging war crimes evidence. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The Saker translates and reports on the visit:
 * The West's Ignorance of Ukraine Atrocities is an Outrage – The Saker on Russia Insider, Sep 30, 2014
 * ''Today, buried 9 minutes into the latest edition of the Channel 1 news report on Russian television, was a 23 seconds long statement by Latvian Human Rights investigator Enorst Gronych who declared on camera that he has interviewed the people of a village recently evacuated by the Junta's repression forces who had told him about "repeated cases of gang rapes of minor girls aged 12, 13 and 14 years old" by Ukrainian thugs.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Strong proof Right Sector, National Guard linked to mass graves near Donetsk – Moscow – RT, October 01, 2014

Daily Psaki
30 Sept 2:51 p.m. EDT [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/09/232317.htm#UKRAINE MS. PSAKI. State Department] "We remain deeply concerned by the intensifying violence in eastern Ukraine.

Russian military forces

and equipment are still in Ukraine, and the Russia-Ukraine border is still unsecured. Since the ceasefire was signed on September 5th, attacks on Ukrainian positions and towns,
 * (by whom???)

including around the Donetsk airport and the village of Popasna in Luhansk, have killed and wounded scores of Ukrainian armed forces and civilians and destroyed critical infrastructure. We call on Russia and the separatists it backs to immediately end these attacks. We also call on Russia to withdraw all Russian military forces

and equipment from inside Ukraine
 * ??? most of equipment on both sides is Russian made.

OSCE monitors are on the ground in Ukraine monitoring and verifying the ceasefire, and ready to further support the implementation of the September 5th Minsk protocol and September 19th Minsk agreement. Russia must allow them to do their work
 * No clue about big picture items, that it is UAF shelling that is killing civilians; that access is not controlled by Russia; and that there is actually no problem with the access. No awareness of details (like that there was an offer and opportunity for UAF to leave the airport, which was not taken, etc) --Resup (talk) 23:32, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No clue about big picture items, that it is UAF shelling that is killing civilians; that access is not controlled by Russia; and that there is actually no problem with the access. No awareness of details (like that there was an offer and opportunity for UAF to leave the airport, which was not taken, etc) --Resup (talk) 23:32, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

2 October. Ukraine should lead in the Donetsk investigation. at (29:35). (Note. War crimes investigations have no time limit. But living humans do). --Resup (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2014 (UTC)