Talk:Douma Market Attack, August 2015

Start Notes
Sorry, I took too long putting this on the blog first. No time to copy over, with the pressing project, and the blog needs more traffic anyway. Some good findings already, like 95 victims at least dumped unclaimed in mass graves, 100 of 105 in the VDC list are adult males, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Later, much later it seems on my end: damn guys, nothing? :/ --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Victims
Comparison table forthcoming.

Rigor Mortis and Death Time
Okay, I started with a question about one victim seen in this earliest-posted photo of the gathered bodies of men and boys, the few dozen unwrapped bloody ones. That seems to be 2:53 PM (10 hours ahead of the Tweet time in California) On the left are two things that made me wonder: a man on a children's slide, feet sticking out, and a guy who looks a bit worried about the camera. The legs suggested rigor mortis. But looking closer. I now don't think so. Left leg only sticks out, and I think that's from his knee being above that curve, so that's just shin-straightness, not interesting.

First, can anyone talk me back into seeing that? It was interesting. Takes about 2 hours to start, more to get that stiff, and I have the plume of smoke video timed to about one hour before the photo (solar azimuth 220 degrees, +/- 4 degrees), around 1:35-1:50 PM. So attack, around 1:25-1:35. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Otherwise, the bodies here seem relaxed and non-stiff an hour after the bombing. Arms lay flat, nothing sticks out. Maybe they are stiff and jut carried in carefully so they stay stiff in that set position, but I'll say relaxed like they should be. Besides being pulled from whatever and gathered suspiciously quick, there's a question in their lack of rigor mortis. Is this before or after it? It takes hours to start, and up 'til about a day after death to relax fully. Were they generally killed about an hour before the photo, or more like 24 hours before? To me, the blood on them seems pretty dry for having died just an hour ago or less, after injuries played their course. They don't seem to be bleeding out any more either. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Less Clear Victims

 * Late note, there was a similar but smaller market bombing massacre on Aug. 12 with 29 dead men and boys, and unlisted girls ... (see VDC database) Some pictures given as the 16th are recycled from this. Several wrapped men, but bloodier - an infant completely charred black and crackling - a boy with his guts out, alive in clinic - a blood-and-dust covered baby, alive in clinic - mangled kid in yellow next to a flipped motorcycle - blood on flatbread - some others I'm trying to remember to note. A mass grave scene widely re-posted on Twitter is also re-cycled from somewhere. I'm sure I've seen it, but can't remember where. Maybe Daraya Massacre, 2012? The crying girl in maroon hijab (see here) (not the same photo, but the same girl, I think, is seen in other photos from the 12th, like this one - just a repeat market customer?)


 * Those considered below do not fit this category; their pictures are from August 16, or from somewhewre further away in time or space. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I have at least 4 child victims from two photos found on twitter, one common and one not. All point to horrible massacre activities. To me, anyway. Taking second thoughts. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Head-Hacked Kids?
(links, pics maybe should be here too - eventually) three child victims, appears to be 2 girls and a boy, all aged like 3-7, alleged by tweets as part of some "Douma massacre" on August 16. My impression, sort-of averaged across all three as I can see: they and their clothes are intact, not dusty - I think they were not involved in a missile attack. They have slightly roughed up knees is all, aside from the fatal head wounds (signs mixed/uncertain, but no other wounds are seen). These are the only deceased girls I've seen, not recorded by the VDC who have no girls listed. The boy actually coule be listed - they miss female entries a lot, fill them in months later for some reason. Anyway, not named yet, killed differently from others and similarly to each other, in a manner consistent with execution. This furthers the evidence for another rebel massacre of gender-segregated captives. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC) and cleanup/additions Caustic Logic (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/08/douma-market-attack-girl-victims.html


 * Updates, worked-In above: a 4th girl alleged, horrible hacked-open head, brains and scalp everywhere. Not a shelling victim. Knees unseen. And a 5th, it seems, less clear, carried by at a distance, if not mis-attributed, see above. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Drawn-and-Quartered Boy?
Attached to the burned faces study for now is this less clear case from a twitter photo about Douma Massacre, August 16. It might be easier to say if it's recycled from anywhere, a horrendous image. Not shared directly there, only semi-graphic pics. But a crop on his raw face, burned just like a mask over all his face and nothing else, worse than any others by far. And the scariest thing is what happened to roughly remove his arms at the elbows, and almost remove his legs at the knees. I had drawn-and-quartered - pulled apart between vehicles driving opposite ways - come into my mind, and it won't leave now. Wherever this picture is, it's no bomb or missile to detonate at each major joint like that (shoulders injured as well, hips unclear), I'm pretty sure of that. He's been pulled apart. Hopefully after death, but according to the medics in this rebel clinic, he's still alive at photo time. The full photo is really long, like his body now is. I hope that's some fakery. The oxygen bottle (?) tube doesn't seem to be in his mouth (pmr9 would know what that means) I'm glad this one isn't apparently on video.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/08/douma-market-attack-burned-faces.html
 * It looks as if the doctor has given up on trying to insert an endotracheal tube and is attempting a tracheostomy instead. I think it's possible that the limb injuries could be explained by high-speed impacts or crushing.  But he circumscribed burn of the entire face and nowhere else is hard to explain - why would only the face be burned if it was an explosion? Pmr9 (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. High-speed impact with weird dynamics, or crushing, could do this, but I think those would leave marks on the body. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Updates, worked-In above: no, split-off from above and emboldened: Douma Market Attack: "Assad Bombs" PULLING Children Apart? (anyone worried, it's no more graphic, photographically...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)