Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Debunked topics

We did it!

 * Mashable, July 17: Pro-Russian Rebel Commander: 'We Did Warn You — Do Not Fly in Our Sky' by Christopher Miller of Kyiv Post
 * Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin — who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov — boasted about shooting down a plane.
 * "We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote.
 * Thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane, Strelkov added that “a plane has just been downed somewhere around Torez, it lays there behind the 'Progress' mine,” referring to the mining town of some 80,000 people.
 * “And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down,” he continued. “The bird went down behind a slagheap, not in a residential district. So no peaceful people were injured,” Strelkov wrote, adding that there is also information about a Ukrainian military plane shot down.
 * However, Strelkov deleted the post when he found out it was actually a commercial jetliner carrying 295 innocent people — not a military aircraft.


 * Mixed early questions: Did he really post that and delete it, or was it just made up? Did they really shoot it down and if so, why? Malaysia has extra bad luck with paggenger jets, doesn't it? --Caustic Logic (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't. See here. If they shot it down it was an accident - that plane shouldn't have been there in the first place. More information needed. Terrible event. --CE (talk) 02:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone posted it. Strelkov is out in the fields. He has his a 9K35 Strela-10 but I do not think he has Facebook or even time to waste on social media. The way social media sites representing Strelkov or who ever operate, is they collect information from open sources and make their own synthesis. Some of Strelkov's comments come from video interviews or short video messages posted on Facebook. I do not think he writes anything. As for the relevance of the statement; someone saw a plane fall and thought it was a good thing. The announcement means nothing. We would have to hear it from the BUK operator. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks. Both saying the same thing - a "fan page" posted it, in a format they use for regular stuff, NOT stuff Strelkov says, and Miller reads that as Strellkov says, must know, deleted it himself, etc. Bogus. I left my thoughts at the forum too. Here's the main part though:
 * Possibly it could be some false-flaggers with their own appropriate missile launcher who snuck in, but presumably not, until there's some evidence presented. Most likely the separatists thought it was a legit (in their eyes) target and shot it down. 
 * The question for me will be in whether they were given some kind of extra reason to make that bad call, or if it was just their own dangerous ineptitude as it's being made out. Visually, if CE's graphic is correct, the new flight path sticks out as a possible clue - it just had to fly over that launcher that day, didn't it? I'd suggest keeping an eye on that and see if anything else starts to fall into place with it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Bloodless bodies – fake Facebook profiles?
From Voicesevas:
 * ''When reporters showed passports in turn, there were clearly visible to passenger data. Members of foreign forums are not lazy and had their own mini-investigation, during which it was found that people whose passports were shown to reporters, "really exist" - have their profiles in "Facebook". But - attention! - Profiles of these, quite seemingly independent people were registered at one time: 21-April-2013. These profiles are alike in that anything other than images downloaded daily check these pages do not.

Strelkov claims that most of the bodies seemed like they had been dead already before the crash: no blood or bleeding.


 * Also here: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The role of DEAD CORPSES in NATO/CIA World Conquest (III Parts: July 19-21-23, 2014)

Putting all theories together à la Occam I get this: The plane suffered a pressure leak somewhere near Amsterdam, just like MH370. All the passengers and crew were killed from lack of oxigen. The plane flew east on autopilot and just by accident happened to fly over the BUK battery in Snezhnoye. This does not explain the fake FB profiles though. Maybe the plane that crashed in Snezhnoye was in fact MH370 that had been rehearsing for the false-flag mission all this time. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hm... I'd have to see that explained out before I could get this guy's back on this claim. Already I was thinking of an episode of the "V" re-make TV show where the visitors tricked the resistance into shooting down a shuttle full of innocents. But they were already dead, eaten, just skeletons with scrape marks on their bones. So, it sounds like a far-fetched TV show plot, if more realistic in that the bodies still have flesh, but ... who killed a planeload of people, or flew the plane? I guess remote control... they say Dr. Joep Lange of HIV research fame was one of the victims. Did someone snuff him out at the airport, or what?

The photo posted on Facebook by the alleged passenger Cor Pan at the gate is a hoax. The plane shown is 9M-MRC but the plane that left Amsterdam was 9M-MRD.

It seems however that the plane that crashed in Donetsk was 9M-MRO of MH370 fame! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Carmel by the Sea said... About the decomposed bodies from MH17:


 * http://www.prisonplanet.com/rebel-leader-says-many-of-the-dead-bodies-in-mh17-werent-fresh.html
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiHTGkG0zw
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvuIhO8hACA
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-J6tDSOgHk

The article at Prison Planet says "This story is only bizarre until you consider the fact that this situation might be staged." However complex a set-up one supposes, it remains bizarre even then. Not impossible, just bizarre. Consider that to remain consistent, they would need to start nearly 300 dead people of all kinds, sourced however. Most theorists presume the identities are made up, so "the real victims" just snuffed out a bit early doesn't work. Already decomposing, the corpses were drained of blood (or did it just evaporate?) and were loaded by someone onto an airliner in the Netherlands, maybe at a secret military facility. Someone leaned over each rotting body to fasten their seat belts for realism.

But a pilot supposedly flew it. What the hell was he thinking? Did they manage to hide the smell from him? Not likely. So he's thinking, perhaps: "I'm supposed to fly this plane full of dead bodies to Kuala Lumpur, for this big cash bonus? Pre-dead bodies, right over war-torn eastern Ukraine? Wait ... I'm going to survive this, right?" No living pilot would agree to that. So clearly he was killed, along with the co-pilot, and stuffed in the cockpit for an all-dead flight done by remote control. Was there blood only in the cockpit? It fits - as the last to die, there was no time to drain their blood. And so, that must be the amended theory and I still don't buy it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

A Different Explanation?
Elsewhere, new member KatKan mentioned living passengers winding up pretty blood-free for medical reasons shot of being pre-dead. In part:
 * ...Using my (very long ago) rescue triage training, I examined all the body photos for type of injury. The main findings were (a) almost no blood (as the separatist intercepted call rightly claimed) (b)a lot of legs at angles suggesting hip/pelvic fracture (a very common injury in air crashes to people wearing seat belts) and (c) all the bodies appear swollen (in first-day photos). We are thinking of what happened as a decompression, a low-pressure event. But that was preceded by the blast detonation of the missile just outside... a high-pressure event. The very high pressure shock wave compresses the blood vessels and severely damages the lungs. Blood pressure and heart rate go sky high trying to compensate. In 1/2 a second the blast wave is gone and they are in decompression.The heart can't adjust fast enough. The lack of blood flow makes the brain and liver swell up, too, so normal blood circulation cannot be re-established even if the heart recovers. The Lockerbie bomb, and various exploding fuel tank cases, were lower pressure explosions; sadly many would have survived those until ground/water impact.KatKan (talk) 20:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * So there is evidence of blast wave, not _just_ decompression alone? But no shrapnel wounds? --Chingachgook (talk) 21:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * If it matters, I haven't looked at may photos, but Time's photo, by Jerome Sessini of a man in his seat in the field has blood on his (broken, distended, maybe swollen) neck that landed there (probably after a post-crash cough, I thought) and ran down, as down is here. Could be his bloody hand slapping there too, but it's a normal seeming amount to me. Space below for rebuttal if it matters enough. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Machine gun shouldn't do a blast wave (of any serious medical consequence), only a missile, sufficiently close by, will. (Knowledge of how much pressure will start to cause this medical effect allows to estimate how close). No/little shrapnel from a missile nearby suggests most of shrapnel is directed away, not in. I cannot make a conclusion  looking at the photo (explanation appears very sound to me, I just don't have the expertise. Presumably people would not die from decompression alone prior to the impact, which indicates that something else was going on).  --Chingachgook (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Other points: I can see how decompression and crash injuries will cause swelling with broken fluid channels. It will also accelerate post-death bloating. Dead by impact, I still say they'd suffer at the last part and miss the first (aside from the first few seconds) (if alive when loaded, as we've been presuming) --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC) and Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

From the Australian coroners' investigation as reported by John Helmer:
 * ''There were, they report, “massive internal injuries with little external signs” and “no haemorrhage round fractures”. According to sources involved in the MH17 investigation, this means there was no blood pressure, and the victims were dead before they hit the ground.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Anna News videos
Anna News has published an interview with Alena Kochkina (Алёны Кочкиной) was at the site with the rescue team 20 minutes after the crash: Claims a smell of formaldehyde. Shows terrible photos of bodies on laptop screen. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 18+ БОИНГ-777. Ужасающие подробности. 29.08.2014 / #MH17 – Anna News, August 29, 2014
 * TIP:
 * Use Google Chrome
 * Turn on automatic translation from Russian to English
 * Turn on captions for video in YouTube
 * With German subtitles: #MH17 Der fliegende Nicht Holländer 18+ (images blurred)

SBU wiretap video

 * ''Moved to Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/SBU Audio Evidence
 * ''See also Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Cyber Berkut leak

Spoofed radar
It now seems clear that the Russian ATC radar data, the flights recorders, the physical evidence and the Ukrainian radar data as conveyed by the Dutch preliminary reports all agree on the flight path and the point of impact. Some people are still speaking about spoofed radar data though. What does not agree with the physical evidence though is Flightradar 24. Maybe thay are simply wrong. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Spoofed radar ID caused MH-17 shoot down – Red Flag News

Alexander Khodakovskii ( highly placed rebel commander admitted...)
In Reuters, AP publications, on youtube, and in numerous other sources, it was claimed that " a highly placed rebel commander admitted that rebels had a BUK." Those reports are not accurate.

(1) In youtube recording, a person presumed to be Khodakovskii, says Я знал, что "Бук" шел из Луганска. В тот момент мне сказали, что "Бук" со стороны Луганска идет под флагом ЛНР. I knew that BUK is travelling from Luhansk. At that moment, I was told that Buk is moving from Luhansk under the flag of LNR. However, there is no information on who told him that, and whether it was actually true. In fact, subsequent discussion makes clear that Khodakovski believed that this is well-known to Ukrainian side. His main point in his long winding statement is that Ukranian side new that there may be some Buk in the area. It was irresponsible for Ukrainian side to provoke rebels having lots of military planes sorties in the area and sending passenger jet to the same area at the same time.

(2) In another interview, on 22 July 2014, clearly seen and well audible Alexander Khodakovskii discusses the same matter, making the same main point that Ukrainian side acted irresponsibly. Regarding specifically rebels having or not having Buk, he had this to say : И если мы на сегодняшний день не можем гарантированно говорить о том, был ли у ополченцев «Бук» или не было (и есть доказательства того, что этого «Бука» там не было), — то, по крайне мере, если украинская сторона уверяет, что они располагают достоверными сведениями, они сами роют себе яму. "At present, we cannot guarantee whether militia had Buk, or it did not (and there are some proofs that they did not); however Ukrainian side is shooting itself in the foot claiming that they do have such confirmed information. " --Resup (talk) 22:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Not exactly debunked, but put in its proper, more ambiguous, context. His statements fit pretty well with what I've been suspecting, which is Kiev tricking them into allowing their false-flag machine . Having Lugansk people provide it for the Donetsk people adds a layer of communications they might not manage, keeping them from sorting out the true story and seizing the thing and its crew like they should have. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There was an interview of Khodakovskiy published by Reuters (if I remember correctly) that turned out to be a hoax. As published, it implicated the rebels of a number of things, I guess having a BUK was one of them. It caused great outrage. The next day Khodakovskiy published a video recording of the interview. The published text turned out to be a cut-and-paste hoax – at best. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

"George Bilt"
George Bilt is said to be MIT graduate and aviation expert with 20 years experience. His letter to Russian association of engineers and accompaning photo was shown on Russian 1TV on 14 Nov, 2014. The photo is a fake, and claims made in the letter are not supported by a detailed analysis. Further discussed here--Resup (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Israeli bomb
There has been speculation that someone at the Amsterdam airport planted a bomb in the airplane; maybe someone involved with the Israeli-owned security company. The Dutch report makes one thing clear: the "high-energy objects" entered the airplane from the outside. This may be a new speed record for air crash investigations. After 34 years investigators still have not figured out if Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870 was brought down by a bomb inside or an attack from the outside. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The Downing of MH17 – Is Israel Involved? – Christopher Bollyn, August 12, 2014

Nalivaichenko
It is "discovered" that SBU chief comes with a fake US passport (sex-free machine-unreadable birth-place-confused date-format-questionable). Debunked here.   --Resup (talk) 20:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Rebel Su-25
Donbass militia supposedly captured a downed Su-25. This July 14th video (and here) supposedly shows the plane on a mission. I don't believe any of this. I think the footage is old. It should be possible to geolocate the airstrip, or at least check that it is not in Lugansk. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

The US has satellite images

 * MH17-game: claim, blame & frame – Max van der Werff, December 21, 2014
 * ''US Secretary of State John Kerry revealed yesterday the Americans then saw the airline vanish from sight. It had 298 passengers and crew aboard including 38 Australian citizens and residents. “This type of weapon, all the evidence of it was seen on our imagery,” Mr Kerry said after the annual AUSMIN summit.
 * ''“We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory, we saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.”

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC) Fred Westerbeke, chief prosecutor and coordinator of the criminal investigation into the plane crash told Dutch daily NRC on December 19: “Satellite images showing how on July 17 flight MH17 over Ukraine was shot out of the sky by a rocket do not exist. There has been a misunderstanding about this. There are no satellite images in the sense of a movie where you see a rocket going into the air. There is no conclusive evidence from intelligence services with the answer to all the questions.”
 * Actually, this is a bit vague. It is indeed unlikely that somebody is filming every freaky place on Earth in high resolution at 24 frames per second. But photos are taken once in a while (not known exactly how often). Missile flight and visible trail will give several minutes for a usable photo to be taken, telling something about launch. He says there is no movie, but what about other useful satellite photo evidence?

(And also what about radar evidence, once he discusses unpublished evidence?)--Resup (talk) 13:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

MH370
My conspiracy theory. MH370 targeted Diego Garcia. The US blamed Malaysians. Chose MH17 for false-flag in revenge. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
 * MH370 may have been brought down by US military, claims French former airline director

Best theory on MH370: --Petri Krohn (talk) 23:18, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The case for pilot Zaharie Ahmad Shah’s hijack of flight MH370 - BYRON BAILEY, THE AUSTRALIAN, JANUARY 9, 2016

SBU materials given to Sergey Sokolov
Audio with 'CIA' agent is fake, and video from inside Buk is presumed staged for SBU purposes. Money were paid by Sokolov to obtain those. 'Buk' video did not make it to BBC 'conspiracy files' program, and audio debunked. --Resup (talk) 15:55, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * SBU materials given to Sergey Sokolov, shown in 3rd episode: MH17. About what was the BBC quiet?by ' MH17 Inquiry' -Video, Jul 20, 2016  --Resup (talk) 15:55, 20 August 2016 (UTC)