Talk:Slavyansk

Mass graves

 * ''Moved to Talk:Mass graves in Ukraine

Slavyansk crucifixion

 * Part I: Investigating the Slavyansk Crucifixion – Gleb Bazov, August 9, 2014
 * Part II: Investigating the Slavyansk Crucifixion – Gleb Bazov, August 9, 2014


 * Thanks, Petri - interesting story I didn't know yet. I read part 1, but it loaded so slow I'll wait for part 2. It's commendable work, and I can see both sides. I wouldn't rule out that such a thing is possible - nailing a toddler to a bulletin board and cutting him to death in front of everyone, then dragging his mother behind a tank a few km. But ... as I've said for other stories, it has a high propaganda-to-plausibility ratio. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * One detail I decided to consider is the "bulletin board" the alleged witness cited, and another video tried to disprove. (sorry, names and links not handy) He pans around the square to show there is no bulletin board, before getting people to say that never happened (but then, "what else can they say?") But ... if she's an acknowledged local who would know if there was or wasn't one, and making a non-existent object so central to one's story would be dumb. For good measure I checked Google Maps and various photos, just to see if maybe there had been one now gone for that video. That would be chilling, but no clear luck. There are other areas it could be, under a tree or off to one side, not necessairly taking a central spot. In fact, it wouldn't. The gazebo is new but not new enough to be the infamous billboard's replacement. It'sthere on July 9.and in 2012, Google Earth view (but not 2010) FWIW:

The best guess for such a bulletin board could be this by the fountain:
 * general view
 * July 9 - Lenin's pedestal is a bulletin board, not nail-able
 * view 1
 * view 2 --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Undeniable abuses
This is another in a tradition of HRW essentially telling allied militants "don't be so blatant and open with your abuses. Keep them off camera, blame the other side, make it as awful as you want, and we'll find a way to believe you." The above (Mass Grave) might argue against that, but only time will tell if they ever really try to solve that or leave it at "murky," meaning they'd rather not say. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Abductions, lawlessness: Amnesty International slams pro-Kiev ‘vigilantes’ RT, AUgust 7. 2014


 * To be fair, that's AI who are, while also not unproblematic, still far more credible than that joke HRW. That report about the mad scumbag Lyashko is useful and they have put some pressure on the "authorities" to stop him. Meanwhile, HRW's latest piece is the usual outrageous crap. Headline: Ukraine: Insurgents Disrupt Medical Services Ambulance used to transport fighters, some HRW guy has seen. etc. And then in some random paragraph:
 * Human Rights Watch has also documented attacks on hospitals by explosive weapons that killed at least two medical staff. While the circumstances suggest Ukrainian armed forces launched some of these attacks, further investigation is needed to determine responsibility.
 * We will never know... and it's Putin's fault! ;o) --CE (talk) 12:33, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * oops, typing from memory w/o review. Thanks. Agreed on the differentiation (not to put too much weight on it - both are pretty dubious). This means HRW has not that I've seen called out Lyashko (sp?) and allies like that for undeniable abuses, while scrambling for crimes to pin on the other side. That adds some to the record. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Strelkov
Long interview with Strelkov how things started. He arrived to Slavyansk with about 50 guys. Neither side wanted to fight in the first 2 weeks, but than it slowly happened. Recalls an order given not to take Mariupol, although there was no UAF there for 2 days interview (Russian) (Rather peculiar media source, but anyway...) --Resup (talk) 17:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

He initially had just 2 working tanks, while UAF kept 4 per block-post.

On loosing his armored vehicles group (9 in total) during withdrawal from Slaviansk, based on the above interview. This group was to cover others, firing at UAF from outskirts of Slaviansk, and than follow the rest. However there was "a human factor involved"; they did not follow the rest but attempted a direct breakthrough. The first tank hit a mine and this Strelkov; the one behind could not pass it and overturned. The rest of the group was destroyed from RPGs by Ukrainian army. (Strelkov left before this armored group to set command headquarters; he says now it was a mistake not to be the last to go). --Resup (talk) 09:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)