Talk:Maidan snipers

Ukraine Research Thoughts
Okay, I got sucked in more than I meant, and within a week I feel for my part like I've cracked the case and could prove it to anyone real and not brain-dead (tested this at the JJREF in this thread - no one was convinced and said so but CE - they're unreal or brain dead - perfect response then.) I also sort-of revived my old blog Petri's been pimping on Facebook with this new post that might lead to more adds. I was about to start a section here on the hotel, but I've been putting it together more at that thread, wondering how important it is to get what where ATM. So it comes up, how big should this page get before it become its own Wiki, or should. Or maybe just a multi-page thing like Ghouta. Or maybe, we should be teaming up with Ukrainians on a bigger site they really could use now. In Ukrainian, and English somehow so everyone (the most people) can follow too, and contribute. I don't know. We're not the best people to do this, even if we do solve it so well so quickly. I would like to see it in someone else's hands and focus on Syria, and still feeling kinda bad I left Libya behind, etc. Thoughts? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Videos

 * Shooting people in Kiev / Стральба па пратэстоўцах у Кіеве. (20.02.2014, APTN) – Feb 20, 2014
 * Революцiя Україна Київ Контратака Майдану вул.Інститутська 2014.02.20 – Full video 41 minutes
 * Силовики стріляють бойовими кулями (Siloviki fire fighting bullets) – RadioSvobodaOrg, Feb 20, 2014
 * Ukrainian police fire at protesters in Kiev – video – reposted by The Guardian
 * Here on Facebook it is suggested that the troops are not Berkut at all, but "Right Sector" extremist.
 * Ukraine: Snipers target police in Independence Square – RuptlyTV, Feb 20, 2014
 * ''Anti-government forces armed with hunting rifles took up sniper positions in a downtown Kiev hotel on Thursday, overlooking protesters and police clashing in Maidan Square below. Police marksmen targeted gunmen appearing in the windows as the two groups exchanged live fire.
 * This seems to be a rebel video filmed at the Ukraine Hotel. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * 40-minute video: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a25_1393030880
 * I can't even see this one over here, old player or not. Will rely on help if enhancements of short clips is needed. Unless it works for me tomorrow. (??) I hear it's extra-brutal, staring after 10:00 anyway (with the part before perhaps holding clues). This one sounds like it'll be important to analyze carefully. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:14, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Also copy on youtube. Didn't watch it yet. The uploader has made some "truth" videos, this one showing the snipers up close. He says their weapons are "AKMS" which aren't used by the state anymore but were in that raided weapon depot. No military boots. Yellow armbands - i've seen those on videos of "right sector" worn by their "security" people, but of course that doesn't mean much on its own. --CE (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I already linked to the original 41 minute video. At 3 minutes you shall see that the "fake Berkut" are defending a museum on Institute Street opposite the Maidan. The claim that these are Right Sector is totally bogus. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, seeing it now, sorry. However, the one above is implied as a segment, but it's a different video, with the tree shooting. On the long one, maybe the same scenes, but a different angle. I have the Youtube video saved (only way I can even watch it well) Not seeing much that's different - rioters advancing on something official, getting shot in the legs and sutff on occasion. At 35:08 you can see one of their white power crosses they try not to display too much these days. Any interesting points anyone can point me to? --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:41, 23 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Fake Bullet Holes Radio Svoboda YT video, 2:16 I had seen this in a re-posting. I replied to a comment calling the bullet holes in the shield fake. (One hole is square. Pick-axe? The blood where the metal was wounded - real or nail polish? Gunshot or poked fingertip? Not sure) That posting was then deleted (maybe coincidence). This version won't be embarrassed away. Are those comments in Russian or Ukranian or both? That matters. Several claim this is faked, one at least cursing the kid who'd lie to the world like that. These comments have by far the most up-votes, including by me - some have 20+ votes up. (The built-in translation there now is really handy. ) --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Yanukovich death squads – Pravyi Sector


 * Как снайперы убивали активистов на Институтской. Полная версия видео (Snipers killed activists Instytutska. Full version of the video)


 * Майдан, который не покажут в новостях. Часть1 (Maidan, which does not show in the news. Part 1)


 * Policeman urges media to report the truth, title says 20.2, published on 19.2 with English and German subtitles. Reports of Berkut injured live-threateningly, quite dramatic "interview" --CE (talk) 14:05, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * RT live-streams by alleged date and time (not uploaded by RT):
 * 19,2., 00:05-01:05 h
 * 19.2., 01:05-02:05 h
 * 19.2., 02:05-03:05 h
 * 19.2., 03:05-04:05 h
 * 19.2., 04:00-05:00 h
 * 19.2., 05:00-06:00 h
 * 19.2., 06:00-07:00 h
 * 19.2., 12:00-13:00 h
 * 19.2., 14:00-15:00 h
 * 19.2., 16:00-16:30 h
 * RT original uploads:
 * Seven hours from 22.1.
 * Six hours from 18.2. (night footage ... 17/18 or 18/19?)
 * 7.5 hours from 20.2.
 * --CE (talk) 14:05, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like a great trove. I'll try to save these, but I'm afraid they'll be gone before I have time. If someone else made a backup set just in case, wouldn't hurt, except obviously time taken. They should be reviewed too and mined for data. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know about trying to save all these. The last one should show any sniping of protesters that happened in the square on the 20th. I'm not sure what time it starts, but it seems to be pre-noon anyway, and it clearly runs past sundown. Ah, wait ... if it stays live, sunset seems to be at about 6:40 video, local sunset at 5:24 = vid start at about an 10:40 AM? Might this be too late, and they're witholding the main segment? Didn't find it yet. At about 1:08-ish there are multiple shot-like sounds, but no noticeable reaction like people getting shot. Anyone else? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

BBC under sniper fire? (not original posting) At 2:28, the reporter says "the majority of the gunfire seemed to be coming from police lines," showing the militant front line way down Instytutska. That's not "unseen snipers" nor, at least with that line, does it seem unwarranted. It's any murky sniping on the Maidan/from the hotel that matters, and they get some. Right after, "...but not all of it." The footage at 2:36 looks to me like after most everything, and just after sunset (or ...?). Walking on the north side of the hotel, seeing the metro station to the SE. Not quite the Maidan if so. He was clear which window it came from - one of the upper floors, fifth row from the left, second from the top, window's open. Whoever was up there was intent on making sure the BBC crew got to document another pointless bit of the government crime spree. Except: "I saw the shooter. He was wearing one of the protesters' green helmets." Okay? And there you go. Also not "unseen sniper" but what can you do? --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * BBC reporting a much different picture Feb. 24, with video: Ukraine unrest: Where were snipers positioned in Kiev? and various posting on Youtube that let me save a copy. Gabriel Gatehous has activists show him how all the fire came from a government barricade and buildings behind, or the October palace, and none from the hotel. Deserves a detailed rebuttal, loads of crap fill this report. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:44, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Hintergrund Putsch Ukraine: Wer waren die Todesschützen?, Video analysis with some interesting footage of the "Berkut policemen" under fire and on the retreat, some other stuff I hadn't seen. His thesis: Seen Berkut are Berkut but fired on armed gangs and not the targets seen in other videos. German dub of russian original --CE (talk) 05:33, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Raw video
Let's collect all raw video material here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:04, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Ukraine protests - Sniper fires from Ukraine media hotel – BBC News, Feb. 20
 * Under sniper fire in Ukraine uprising - BBC News – Feb. 28
 * RT correspondent recalls sniper-fire experience in Kiev, Ukraine – RT, Mar 6, 2014
 * The rifle they're seen shooting out with has been called an air rifle. I'm that not a weapons expert I just presumed so. This report takes it seriously. Then he's shot at, I believe that, with hate. The bullet is found, small caliber, not a sniper round (pistol?). The video analysis from there, fascinating. He's saying it was all over there people were shot, and not on the Maidan? If this is the area everyone was talking about, then hey ... everyone already said that fire came from the hotel. It was kind of vague only where it was going to. Why were the unarmed people sent in while the armed one ran back, up to a room maybe, or just held back as if expecting a sudden storm? Hm! --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Inside Kiev’s Ukraine Hotel – the Makeshift Hospital and Morgue – ABC News, Feb 20, 2014
 * Obama on February 19th

Video analysis

 * неудобная правда о майдане 2: разбор стрельбы по безоружным (an inconvenient truth about Independence 2: parsing firing on unarmed) – MastiffOK, – Mar 1, 2014
 * CВОИ СТРЕЛЯЛИ В СВОИХ! – Mar 8, 2014
 * Vladimir Suchan: This video offers significant evidence that the use of snipers on February 18, 2014, in Kiev was planned beforehand and it also shows how it was executed--by the leaders of the Maidan. Some snipers were acting from the hotel Ukraine, which was on that day seized by Maidan protesters. From the same hotel, a party of snipers fired into the back of a group of protesters who were ordered to move forward through the space covered by the camera:


 * Кем были снайперы, стрелявшие по демонстрантам и Беркуту (Who were the snipers who fired on demonstrators and Berkut) – Russian TV 1, March 8, 2014
 * Maidan. Inconvenient truth : shooting in the back (mirror)
 * A series of short videos by me, inspired by the above, showing the same scenes plus other stuff from the 41-min video, basically showing you all that's interesting in it. Mainly each shooting is slowed, zoomed, enhanced, repeated for best detail. I only see shots that could be or must be from the hotel. A few new bits other videos might've missed. I'll post these as I finish and upload them. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:39, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Berkut run from Gunmen Rossiya 24 included this, stabilized much like I did, but seems to have missed the rebel gunman you can barely see shooting after them - only his helmet and (rifle scope?) are visible. From 9:089:26 in the long video.
 * Ukraine 2-20 enhanced shooting 1 From 12:25, the kid who's ironically shot as soon as he has a shield and it's pointing the right way.
 * Ukraine Feb. 20 enhanced shooting 2 From 14:08 - two men downed after coming to help others. Agle of fire somewhat unclear in this case. A man with a rifle, no shield, and no protection from the hotel sniper is unharmed.
 * (more coming)

Alleged Government Orders
Reuters reports, Feb. 25, that activists have found the smoking gun this it was the embattled government, not provocateur snipers, that sealed its own legal fate by killing innocent protesters. Everyone agrees the shooting by snipers was from Hotel Ukraine. This news clarifies who they must have worked for.
 * Ukrainian journalists are going through thousands of papers they say were found near Yanukovich's opulent residence near Kiev after he fled the capital and some documents have already started to surface in the Internet.


 * Although its authenticity could not be confirmed, parliamentary deputy Hennadi Moskal, a former deputy interior minister, published a document online detailing a plan to surround Independence Square - the cradle of the uprising - with snipers and open fire on the protesters below.

In the end they seem to have surrounded it from only one side, but that's not totally clear yet. I suppose this alleged order will be around in image form? --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Avakov's "Third Force"

 * Avakov: “Third force” involved in Kyiv bloodshed, translation of UNIAN news agency article, March 5, 2014
 * “Two weeks ago bullets were flying in Kyiv, in the very center,” he said. “A very serious investigation is underway. I think the time will come when we release the facts: who was shooting whom and on whose command. Fact are now being pieced together. I can just say one thing: the key factor in the confrontation which resulted in the bloody slaughter in Kyiv, turned the battlefield upside down and induced a state of shock was a third force. This force was not Ukrainian. We must understand this very clearly,” he said.


 * “This is not a question of political opposition. The core issue is human values and our sense of what has happened. It is unacceptable when outside forces presume to control us,” he added.


 * This is the interior minister speaking of a "serious investigation" going on now. CL, did you see this article posted by Petri in a way I almost overlooked it myself? Very interesting stuff despite the translation problems and the author complains about a lack of investigation by the interior ministry. I really believe (and hope) they don't need our humble efforts to get to the truth of that thing. --CE (talk) 01:37, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * We are getting somewhere now, though I'm behind, and always was. The Interior Ministry ... no shakeups there? Yet? The initial teaser here is vague. This is a pro-Putsch site re-posting it? That external nation(s) are singled out means either Russia, or something no one ever says, a real bombshell. I'll have to look closer and watch that. Or we'll have to. The Armenian terrorist is interesting, but peripheral to the 20th. The Vorontsove thing ... I never did look at that. Will fix the citation. I started translating (before reading) but saw how long it was... it looks promising, and shows Ukrainians are thinking. Maybe it will help us and them double-check whatever the Ministry plans to say about its findings.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:08, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

What happened at the interior ministry is the key to what they mean by the sponsor nation(s) of the third force. If there was continuity, these are the same investigators considering the masked men behind the attack outside Kiev on the 18th, the killers of their police that day, the rioters, snipers, and alleged mercenaries ... Wow. I suspect quiet deals will be sought to keep that from ever being said out loud. This article for example explains how Arsen Avakov, a opposition lawmaker was appointed Feb. 24 by the post-putsch parliament, after they "dismissed Vitaly Zakharchenko, an ally of embattled President Viktor Yanukovich, following two days of carnage." If there's an unwillingness to investigate the physical facts of the crimes, that will be why. There are many unknowns, but presumably this will be a new Svoboda-friendly Ministry and investigation. The word "serious" will be used, especially if untrue, and probably ammo analysis will be able to blame rifles that Russian nasty units use, proving... almost proving that it wasn't Russia, actually. They'd use something pointing to the U.S., Germany, and/or Israel. Anyway...

Supporting a point to Russia, cleverly veiled, except not really, he follows "when outside forces presume to control us" with "Avakov urged the Kharkiv Oblast not to become the “epicenter of warfare.”" Or, actually, what does that mean? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Pointing to Russia more explicitly now. AP, March 7 report: Russia and Ukraine give different versions of sniper tragedy that drove Yanukovych from power (mirror)
 * Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych's government to Vladimir Putin's Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion.
 * The government's new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullets wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.
 * The government's new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullets wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

Despite the familiarity, it's not Olga they're referring to - she reportedly was offered the job but turned it down. Instead, it's an apparent underling: Oleh Musiy, two month veteran of Maidan field clinics. He told AP of his apparent superior "her comments do not correspond with reality." His own observations were the same, but his conclusions more nuanced. The report says
 * ...on Feb. 20 roughly 40 civilians and protesters were brought with fatal bullet wounds to the makeshift hospital set up near the square. But he said medics also treated three police officers whose wounds were identical.
 * Forensic evidence, in particular the similarity of the bullet wounds, led him and other to conclude that snipers were targeting both sides of the standoff at Maidan — and that the shootings were intended to generate a wave of revulsion so strong that it would topple Yanukovych ... and also justify a Russian invasion.

Elipses added for effect. Where do you get the last part, just from looking at the victims and obvious intent to provoke an overthrow? But he clarifies their usefulness to his new government: "In fact if there hadn't been this provocation, this action from a 'third sector,' I think Yanukovych would have remained in power," Musiy told AP.

From the same article, there are others working on identifying the third force. First, absolving Ukrainians:
 * Deputy Interior Minister Mykola Velichkovych told AP that commanders of sniper units overseen by the Berkut police force and other Interior Ministry subdivisions have denied to investigators that they had given orders to shoot anyone.

Then, what kind of bullets are these?
 * The next day (March 6?), Prosecutor General Oleh Makhntisky said officials have found sniper bullet casings on the National Bank building a few hundred yards up the hill from Maidan, the square that became the center and the symbol of the anti-government protests. He said investigators have confirmed snipers also fired from the Hotel Ukraine, directly on the square, and the House of Chimeras, an official residence next to the presidential administration building.

Locations identified, lines forthcoming. --Petri Krohn (talk) 10:22, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Paet-Ashton Call
This a sort of complex he-said, she-said thing that deserves sorting out and clarifying. It's easy to misread a misreading and get confused, and that might even be the plan. (forthcoming) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you notice that military censorship kicked in? The release of the story was delayed by 12 hours by US media. This is standard White House and State Department procedure, when the media get hold of some damaging scoop, they are asked to delay for half a day while the authorities get the story "straight" (i.e. spinned). What makes this unprecedented is that the story was already all over the Internet and global news channels. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I haven't been watching details like that. Good catch then, if so. The reaction among the Kiev cabal too underlines how this is a real tender seam. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Initial Reports
 * Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape RT, March 5
 * Audio: BREAKING: Leaked Phone Call Reveals New Coalition Government Was Behind Sniper Shootings in Ukrain
 * Veterans Today was right – Kiev shootings a psyops provocation – Jim W. Dean
 * Russian State Duma intends to investigate the case of snipers in Kiev: Ashton leak
 * US, NATO, CIA supporting nazis in Ukraine project – VoR, 6 March 2014
 * ''The overthrow of the government of Ukraine was an armed coup d’état ordered, planned, organized, funded, carried out and executed by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the Pentagon, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and their surrogates in the European Union (EU) using every instrument at their disposal including the National Security Agency (NSA) and all of their amassed media resources. It was carried out with the knowledge and approval of US President Barack Hussein Obama if not at his directive.


 * Rebuttals
 * Daily Mail, March 5
 * ''Estonia has confirmed the authenticity of a leaked telephone call between its foreign minister and an EU chief which suggested the sniper killings in Ukraine last month were ordered by the new coalition.
 * In a statement, the Estonian government denied Paet viewed the opposition as being involved in the sniping. 'Foreign Minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard the previous day in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground,' it said. 'We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition's involvement in the violence. A spokeswoman for Ashton declined to comment on the leaked conversation.
 * The Russian Foreign Ministry has not reacted officially, but Itar-Tass news agency quoted a source at the ministry on Wednesday as saying that Moscow was 'surprised' that the EU was not commenting on the intercepted phone chat.
 * The Russian Foreign Ministry has not reacted officially, but Itar-Tass news agency quoted a source at the ministry on Wednesday as saying that Moscow was 'surprised' that the EU was not commenting on the intercepted phone chat.


 * Telegraph, March 5
 * Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner. "Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."
 * But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.
 * "I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.
 * "Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise." Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.
 * "I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."
 * She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.
 * "They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."

An AP report of March 7 passed on the new health minister's Oleh Muisy's version of her observations - the same snipers shot both police and protesters, and they were Russian. For missing the second part, he said "her comments do not correspond with reality." AP tried to talk to her as well, but "Bogomolets could not be immediately located by the AP for comment; she did not answer repeated calls to her cell phone or respond to text messages."

Maidan Translators cites Olga Bohomolets saying at 1:04 PM local " A sniper is operating near Hotel Ukraine. Be careful! Already dozens of wounded and, tragically, 3 dead. Please bring ambulances as close to Hotel Ukraine as possible, to bring out the wounded."
 * Consideration

In between comments, to Paet and to the press, she was unprofessionally revealed as a person, allegedly, blaming the new government for the false-flag sniper incident. That can make a person backtrack. She didn't see the police officers shot? Maybe not. Those shot dead, at least, with "sniper precision," were on the 18th (where I'm not sure). And Paet said she cited medical photos. Hm. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:04, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * As I posted over at JREF (and actually found by a commentator on MoA), in this CNN interview from the 20th, she contradicts what the Telegraph says she said by mentioning that she treated Berkut. It seems to me like she's talking about the quite dramatic events of the day, not sometime before, but that's not 100% clear. As we both noticed, she might be in danger now due to this leak and not willing to openly repeat what she told Paet (whose "out of context" claims are rather lame). No word from the "Baroness", apparently. Gosh! --CE (talk) 15:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That the one side was the opposition could have just been played as a misunderstanding, as she's tried. But that exactly is apparently being taken as her word, and one to hush up. The new health minister has her calling it right except for the obvious Russia angle... now he says she's out of touch with reality, and just out of touch. :(  Will check the interview. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Voronstov Study
The title is intriguing, as are lines like "Burned House of Trade Unions, as the Reichstag , immediately attracts attention." The important parts of the article, as it stands, unreadable. Google Translate gets most of the unimportant connecting words, but less than half of the operative ones. Example:
 * Кто организовал бойню на Институтской? Вопросы к "Батькивщине" (Who organized the massacre at Instytutska ? Questions to the " Fatherland ") By Alexander Vorontsov, УБОП (ubop.net.ua/) February 25, 2014.
 * In pervuju Queue upon áûëî verified that version, kotorыe today voznykayut on the background katastrofycheskoy ynformatsyonnoy failure, versions, kotorыe could áû obъyasnyt Many strannыe Facts and although áû partially Reply to Many Questions . For example , why sylovыh ​​Employees structures so pospeshno otstupyly of October Palace ? 
 * You seem to be translating from Russian. The language / orthography is Ukrainian. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:28, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I can't tell them apart, but I had Google Translate "detect language" just to check. It said Ukrainian like I expected. But it gave gibberish. If you can get or find a better result, let me know. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:03, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I just don't know how good a question that is. But the use of photos, videos, logic, and correlation show he's either doing it right, or trying to look that way. I tried to suss out if he was saying the line of fire from the palace roof to the insurgent's piined-down position. I don't know if he's asking well, then why weren't they shot from there? Or are the marks on the tree supposed to show they did? This one I shelve for now, but it's worth trying to understand, eventually. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Victims

 * (split from above section - many but not all of these were killed by )

Death Toll and Classification

 * Chicago Tribune, Feb. 25 (for example) reports on the new parliament's decision to have the International Criminal Court try their deposed leader for, as understood, killing protesters.
 * A resolution, overwhelmingly supported by parliament, linked Yanukovich, who was ousted by the legislature on Saturday and is now on the run, to police violence against protesters which it said had led to the deaths of more than 100 citizens of Ukraine and other states.

If they actually seek charges over "more than 100" they're talking, firstly, about stuff the rest of the world doesn't know and, secondly, they're being extremely loose with the facts of who all these people are and how they died.

The Pravda Ukraine list translated here (see front page) features 78 victims identified by name, and mentions no unidentified people. Of those, 11 are police officers, and 67 are non-police (usually read "protesters," but that's not totally right - see below) As of the 21st, there was a death toll of 77 settled on and reported. Pravda's ictim #46, Basil Prohorskyy, age 33 was only identified on the 22nd, and made it 78. But already by the 22nd, the final death toll however was later set by Ukraine's Interior Ministry (citing the Health Ministry) at 82 people killed, from the 18th to the 20th. (Voice of Russia) The Wikipedia article 2014 Ukrainian Revolution cites 82, specifying 13 police are included. A Global Post article says "an official toll lists 82 people killed in three days, including around 15 police," sounding like my own deduction off the unchanging non-police 67. I'm inclined to this total If I see no better info. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The battle over the death toll seems to be ongoing. This Daily Fail article manages to fudge it upwards twice before it's done at nearly the 100 "Kiev" says it was above. "At least 88 people were killed in gunbattles between police and anti-government protesters in late February," and later they seem to have a firmer number: "94 people were killed and another 900 injured during the standoff..." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:56, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Unarmed Protesters not involved in militant activities. To hear many talk, there were 82 or more than 100 of these, and no one else, who died in the violence. In fact, the number is not clear at all yet. All reports the media handed us failed to make any distinction between those killed in national self-defense and those murdered for no reason. The number in this category could hypothetically be zero, although it seems to be at least a bit higher than that. Of course, only one side in this would stand anything to gain from such a thing.


 * Armed and violent insurgents killed during their push of the seat of government. Again, this number is unknown, conflated and lumped together with those above. There are suggestions a good couple dozen men were shot on this dangerous front, which was all militant, no protests. Therefore, this category is almost surely larger than the one above, but we can't yet say by how much.


 * Police: 13-15 The first ten of the 11 policemen listed by Pravda Ukraine apparently died on the night of the 18th, although dates aren't given. The last is unclear. The last four victims taking the overall toll from 78 to 82 were most likely police who died after the battles of the 20th; many hundreds were clubbed, stoned, torched, shot, and more. That final push appears to have aimed for non-lethality, but on such a scale and with such ferocity on the part of the mobs (see the videos!) overshooting the mark to the tune of 4-5 deaths is to be expected.


 * Other Some people were killed in a bizarre highway attack on the 18th, by a murky gang of masked men we haven't heard the last about. Not obvious state crimes, at any rate, until the Putschists "find" supporting papers... At least two people on the Pravda list died of heart attack. One got ill during the fighting, and died after returning home. One victims among the 67 is an employee at the Regions Party headquarters, reportedly beaten to death when "protesters" raided and torched the place. (to be expanded)

Snipers on the Maidan?
Many sources report, and I've been repeating, that a number of protesters were shot, not in the push on parliament, but just standing peacefully in the Maidan, by snipers in the Hotel Ukraine, on the 20th. The reports suggest this happened at least just before 1 PM, was talked about a lot until about 1:30, and there was a report of a sniper captured at 1:15. What I'd like is a more clear and detailed report or video of this actual event or its aftermath. I haven't watched even all the ones we have linked here yet, but I also looked around for videos claiming to show that. I didn't find any yet. Anything about sniping that specifies the Maidan, coming from any direction, if anyone sees it, should go under this heading. (the BBC sniper episode doesn't count)

Reports: (forthcoming)

Videos: I'm looking at the 7.5 hour RT video feed. Looking across the plaza from the northwest, it takes in the whole front face of the hotel at the far end. It won't be the best view, but one important angle that should add something. Unfortunately, it pans back and forth and doesn't offer an uninterrupted view of the Maidan. It could have missed something, and it might be discontinuous. So far, I can't set a time frame relative to the clock, not find a spot that clearly seems like sniper shooting.

The time of sunset makes the spot around 2:10 worth checking. One series of shooting-type sounds is at about 1:08:56 but it seems too loud (too close to the camera) and has no clear reaction, like screaming or commotion, or any change in the speaker's delivery at the moment. Another good spot seems to be right before the start of the video - a number of ambulances have loaded a few wounded at once and are pulling out.

To get a time-stamp, I'm looking for the sequence shown at 4:00-6:00 in the 41-min video. A big fire is started in about the middle of the ped bridge, fireworks, fire, and commotion on the slope to the left. I can't locate that so far in the RT footage. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Pravda Ukraine List
A list of victims from February 19th and 20th with photos is published by Ukrainian Pravda:
 * Note, that this is the Ukrainian language Ukrainska Pravda at pravda.com.ua. The Russian language Ukrainskaya Pravda at ukrpravda.ua has ceased publication. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Загиблі герої Майдану – pravda.com.ua, 21.02.2014


 * Interesting. This is more when it was just protesters shot? I suspect these were, peaceful, doing nothing. Compared to the list of sniper target characteristics to look for: some kind of effeminate or sensitive looking guys predominate - this one was in Tears for Fears maybe - a longhair - some kind of artist - several middle-aged men (50+ predominates), a 73-year-old, a few in their 30s, a few in their teens, not so many of prime fighting age. No ovious toughs shown. This guy is closest - too pudgy. One is "member of the district council Horodenka Ivano-Frankivsk from Svoboda" I only translated a few. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:40, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Fighting age, or fitness, won't likely matter here like it does in Syria, except with people already recruited. Mainly we should look for visible clues that might suggest a person Nazi thugs would pick to put a bullet in, as a bonus for creating another protester "shot by government sniper" to help "justify" your rampage as you go. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm making a list of Google-translated entries. Unless I counted wrong, there are 68 (I was wrong - 67) protesters/activists/others (it's really a mixed bag) and 11 policemen killed. It'll take too long to finish before posting. Name orders tend to be family first, personal second, but there seem to be exceptions. Only select photos for now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)


 * (main list moved to front page --CE (talk) 15:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC))

Vesti Journalist
Entry #9 above: Vyacheslav Veremiy, a journalist of the newspaper "Vesti", 32 years. Titushky vystrelyly man in the chest. He died in the hospital the morning of February 19, 2014 due to loss of blood from the gunshot wound. Without father left 4-month son Vyacheslav. photo

Vesti means News. According to Wikipedia, there are three Vestis - A Russian TV channel until 2010, now Rossiya 24, a newscast of the latter, and also - the only newspaper - Israel's only Russian language daily. Israeli!!! Jew!!! Nazi mobs!!!

But, no ... it's just not a full list. Here is Vesti.ua reporting their reporter's death early on the 19th. Google translated:
 * Early this morning, 19 February, in the Kiev hospital emergency department died correspondent "Kiev" newspaper "Vesti" Vyacheslav Veremei . Late at night on the eve of masked men (неизвестные в масках ) opened fire on our journalist. Doctors fought for several hours life of Fame (celebrity?), but he died on the operating table.


 * Revision of "Vesti " expresses its heartfelt condolences to the families of Vyacheslav . Mourn with you . We also demand that the law enforcement authorities to conduct an investigation as soon as possible and find the killers of our journalist.


 * We appeal to all the witnesses of what happened with the request to provide information that will help find the criminals . Contact email address : info@vesti.ua.

"Masked" is usually not the right word for "helmeted." Police don't usually need to be "identified" and tracked down. The killers are, implicitly, the allies and agents of the (apparent?) new government, and the case might just be dropped now. It could be said this is a lie by a pro-Y news agency. Then, a reported for a pro-Y agency was killed. Hm. Maybe by the government did it to make the "extremists" look bad? Then, it's acknowledged at least that the extremists look bad. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Via RT: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ukraine turmoil LIVE UPDATES
 * Tuesday, February 25 – 05:42 GMT:
 * ''The suspected shooter of Ukrainian journalist Vyacheslav Veremyi, of the local Vesti newspaper, has been arrested, reported the paper, quoting MP Pyotr Poroshenko.
 * ''Veremyi died of a gunshot wound in the chest after masked men attacked him last Tuesday on the way home in Mikhailovskaya Street in central Kiev.


 * Ah! They got an ID and an arrest? I'm curious about the details, considering the management change and all. Shot on the way home they say. That's consistent with targeting. I was wondering if he was out investigating them at the time and saw something they didn't want reported. But maybe his job is unrelated. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Vesti.au report on it (Google Translates poorly) "On Wednesday evening (in a place, attackers) with bats attacked Vyacheslav Veremyya and IT specialist editorial Alexei Lыmarenko ." Another line says "Machine -?- and -?- -?- grenades. Taxi Driver and Alexei -?- of cars and -?- -?-" Needs work. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Those curious about how this story progresses could follow this Vesti page for all articles about him (are there 27 already? and that's with none since the 27th? What happened after that?) I'll check the most recent:
 * Finally, our investigation into the murder of journalist Vyacheslav Veremei engaged Prosecutor General's Office and the Interior Ministry, Feb. 27. It features video evidence, with several stills, and more details in general.
 * Today, February 27 , nine days after the death of our journalist Vyacheslav Veremei . In fact there is not suspected , but the investigation is conducted , so staff of the newspaper "Vesti" very much hopes that the perpetrators will be found and punished . As it turned out , at the crossroads of Big Zhitomir and Vladimir on the night of 18 on February 19 killed another man - Vitaly Vasiltsov - and at least one was injured . We carefully collect all the video and witness the bloody night and we are grateful to everyone who will tell us something about those events .

It goes into "events at the crossroads," with Zytomir and other places mentioned (to, from, etc. unclear) Local police had no role - being unarmed, they simply stayed away when a huge crowd of thugs rolled up in black SUVs. They blocked the road, attacked various cars, throwing grenades in after smashing windows (?).
 * This crowd was raging about 11 pm to 4 am. They threw stun grenades toward maydanovtsev, gathered at St. Michael's Square . Constantly heard the queue from a Kalashnikov . The bandits stopped cars, beat them and threw grenades . Passed only trolleys and ambulances . Also beat people passing by . lso beat people passing by . Bandits led by a few people who pointed out to beat anyone who does not beat in what car to throw grenades.

A woman named Eugenia gave this account of the attack on Vyacheslav:
 * In the taxi that drove Vyacheslav, threw stun grenades . Firing of weapons was constant . Slavik in a gray jacket tried to escape in our direction , but three men knocked him down and beaten with metal pipes . Fourth supervised . Slavik got up again , they knocked him down and beat him with all his strength . Finally released him , he ran to us, but along the way began to lose consciousness and fell right at the front wheel of our cars , "- she said. (video still - different video? - same video as the 2nd)
 * Eugenia and her husband jumped out of the car and tried to help Slavik . " He said," I am a journalist ... I was beaten ... I can not breathe, "- says Eugene. Slavik asked to turn it on its side , because it was easier. "I undid the zipper on his blue sweater , someone brought water, I washed the blood from his forehead . I kept saying to him: " Do not fall asleep , do not close your eyes ." Ten minutes he looked at me with his blue-gray eyes . I still see them. In the right eye, he shone a whistle , maybe when they smash the car , it got there , "- says Eugene.
 * Ten minutes later there was an ambulance. The car was another wounded, but not so hard. So the guy was replaced on a stretcher Slavik . Doctors put him on the neck collar safety , loaded into the car. First ten minutes standing , and then went .

So, apparently, he was not shot? The initial report that his killer was captured turns out to be untrue also, or perhaps more likely, was deemed untrue after that person was mysteriously released.
 * Recently lawmaker Poroshenko said Vyacheslav Veremei killer arrested, but it is not. The theme of Avakov ( В тему Аваков ) denied detention killer Vyacheslav Veremei. As said, " Vesti " Attorney General Oleg Mahnitsky suspects yet (at large). The investigation of all crimes resonance leads Attorney General's Office in conjunction with the Ministry of Internal Affairs .

--Caustic Logic (talk) 13:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Patterns
First pass, general: Feb. 18 had the most interesting shootings and deaths, while the 20th had the greatest number and randomness. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Cops Killed Early: The interesting day, the 18th ... note the 11 killed policemen have no death dates. They are, or tend to be, the 18th. It's not clear of the listed 11 is the whole list of slain police officers. The bulk of riots on the 20th injured, burned, beat, and captured police in huge numbers. It's hard to imagine no more getting killed, but this RT report of the 19th suggests only one of these 11 died after that first night:
 * Twenty-six people were killed overnight in the most violent clashes yet to have occurred between security forces and protesters since the opposition took to the streets of Kiev in November 2013. Ten of the casualties are Ukrainian police officers, who died of gunshot wounds, as did the rest of the victims, the Interior Ministry reported.

Further, he explained it must be "violent protesters" since “police officers and interior troops do not use fire arms. Law enforcers are only using non-lethal weapons." This was apparently true, at least until they were coming under fire like this. On the 19th, apparently, it was decided police would again be armed and authorized to fire in self-defense. Trapped! If false-flag provocateur snipers were responsible for crimes pinned on the state, the allegation part could not work on the 18th nearly as well as it did on the 20th. With this cop-killing provocation, it seems, guns were tricked into the authorities' hands, and just as quickly, those guns were blamed for beautiful young people punctured on the Maidan, just as planned.--Caustic Logic (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Urs has done some more digging and found descriptions for the videos showing burning busses and intimidated passengers - those were apparently counter-protesters from Crimea on their way home on the 20th. Even more interesting is a (German) translation of an interview in a video already deleted (youtube account deleted due to "several reports" of copyright issues, of course). Counter-protesters who drove to Kyiv on the 17th and arrived in the morning of the 18th for a demonstration in the Mariinsky Park on the other side of the government buildings, maybe 300m east of the lower right corner of your map. They say a huge mob attacked them around 11 am, threw Molotow cocktails, stones, pepper spray etc, and after "the guys from Berkut" tried to protect them, some in the mob started to shoot. The interviewee says s/he saw "5 people killed", unclear if police or counter-protesters. --CE (talk) 12:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Nazi Protesters?
Is it just a smear to suggest White Supremacist-types had any significant role in the protests-cum-insurgency? Many have said so, and point to the relative or total absence of their imagery in the events of February 17-20 as suggesting the people that usually come with the images were also absent. But this is far from clear, and in fact that very point, which seems to be true, is actually a possible clue helping form a troubling picture: It could be that Nazi types from Svoboda, Right Sector, etc. were in fact present, in at least the usual numbers for such events, and operating at their usual level of seriousness or higher, and no less central than usual in the events. The other part of that picture is an agreement with other parties that stipulated no Nazi imagery this time - they wanted clean muscle mass. This would have been crucial to the stomping through the state's security forces as happened. All this would likely be delivered in exchange for a larger role in the partition of power afterwards, which one way or another the neo-Nazi parties seem to have gotten. This chilling possibility remains on the table, partly supported, but unproven. Beyond that, only so much can be said at the moment.

Visuals: These are the two known neo-Nazi symbols spotted so far on the 20th, both in the militant sector pushing up Instytutska towards the Rada.

Left: A Celtic White Power Cross that appeared at the forward front line on Instytutska. A man was apparently just shot in front of it. This panel also contains a red right-pointing arrow, and various letters in red and black. It's seen again at the video's end, retired further towards the rear and the hotel.

Below, right: the same symbol, broken, seen at an unclear spot, apparently nearby. Added letters at the corners include F, C, and 2 unclear characters. The meaning is surely known around. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

This video at 1:47 shows a guy walking slowly among the mob holding a clenched right fist salute. Hitler-via-Svoboda style, I think. See below for the red-over-black flag of the Fascist Ukranian Insurgent Army of Stepan Bandera, planted at the first front line, closer to the Maidan, under the pedestrian bridge.

These tend to be on the back sides of panels, visible from only inside views like this, for what that's worth. Otherwise, the lack of Nazis showing off their symbols is noteworthy, when it's been a common feature of previous Ukrainian protests. All those who suggest that extra-angry, extra-effective crowd was absent for these events are able to provide no other place they'd be at this crucial time. They would want to be there in the thousands, and if it could be kept from being too obvious, there were others who would like that very much. Besides the "vanguard" on Instytutska where we see the few symbols peeking around the presumptive ban, there are crowds like that in the video above, and also this below (location not yet set), that steamrolled over riot police like the thugs from the movie Romper Stomper, molded into a large, furious, and uber-confident (insurgent) army. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Update March 8: the original video I embedded here shows the same scene as the other mob video linked above, from two different angled. I just replaced that video with my own, including this footage and parts of a policeman's reaction and a program (BBC Newsnight) on the rise of ultranationalist NOT Nazis afterwards.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:29, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

K9gTWlTjnmA

Allegations:
 * Slate: Russia says the Ukrainian Protesters are Fascists and Nazis are They? This lame article does little but cite another guy who says "Yet it is the Ukrainian regime rather than its opponents that resorts to anti-Semitism, instructing its riot police that the opposition is led by Jews. In other words, the Ukrainian government is telling itself that its opponents are Jews and us that its opponents are Nazis." That does seem to be true, that claims of Jews leading the fibght were lodged. The one side's apparent racism is then used as a stand-in for an argument against Moscow's claim. As if only one side or the other can be anti-Semitic.

In unrelated news: Jews were leading the Maidan protest/fights, according to the Jews themselves and not the lying anti-semitic regime.


 * Times of Israel, Feb. 28: Israeli militia commander fights to protect Kiev "Delta, a Ukrainian-born former IDF soldier, heads a force of 40 men and women, most of whom are not Jewish, against gov’t forces" Odd story - he held the mob back at one point from torching a police station and/or taking their guns - using diplomacy that earned "Delta" and his team the nickname "blue helmets".
 * “It’s ********. I never saw any expression of anti-Semitism during the protests, and the claims to the contrary were part of the reason I joined the movement. We’re trying to show that Jews care,” he said. Photo of Delta supposedly as he appeared in fighting. How can they be Nazis, if they're fighting alongside Jews, and not brandishing Swastikas? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:01, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

“I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’” he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any] anti-Semitism issue.”
 * Michel Chossudovsky, Global Reasearch, March 3: Ukraine: Israeli Special Forces Unit under Neo-Nazi Command Involved in Maidan Riots Citing more details from an original JTA report, this points out "Delta" was in the notorious Givati brigade, had several IDF people with him, five total. "The Maidan “Street fighting unit” under Delta’s command was involved in confronting government forces." That puts him in the "vanguard," perhaps up the Instytutska, where the few clear signs did appear. Or he's being truthful, which suggests he was elsewhere. Delta also adds that he was assigned to work with and take orders from the Nazi-tinged Svoboda party's militant wing, but he denies the Nazi part, sort of, but doesn't like them anyway:

So ... apparently it was kind of complex. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:01, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Armed Protesters
Here's one participant offering an assessment of their limited gun situation (limited hangout? from LA Times, Feb 20):
 * "Some of the protesters here had their officially registered hunting rifles with them, and they started shooting back," said Nikolay Mosiyenko, a 46-year-old retired lieutenant colonel of the Ukraine Armed Forces, who joined the protest at its outset last fall.

Of course, they were planning a hunting trip afterwards, never intending to shoot people, during protests in the capitol. Because that would void the legality (in spirit anyway) of them being "hunting rifles."
 * "If that was the idea of Yanukovich's anti-terrorist operation, I must say, it failed utterly," Mosiyenko said. "He never got the backing of the army in a situation when the police can no longer cope." Mosiyenko was referring to a government warning Wednesday that it was undertaking an "anti-terrorist operation" to end the protests...

That's an astute assessment. He's quite the tactician, for a simple protester-hunter. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot of pictures of armed protesters, wielding a variety of weapons, from pneumatic guns and pistols up to hunting rifles and even automatic guns. --Emes (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Good call. I've seen that post at Moon of Alabama, it's on the list of things to add. For the purpose at hand, what they had on the 18th to 20th is most relevant, while many or all of these pictures are from past events. It shows they've been "piece-full" protesters in the past, but that doesn't rule out a change here - which I might see, actually. The 10 shot cops were by murky men some will call Russians, and the unseen snipers, the same. There were differences this time besides the scale and audacity, like no Nazi imagery this time (followed pretty closely it seems), and maybe less public guns is one of those. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:36, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Aside from whatever guns they brought and used, the "peaceful protesters" can be seen using the following weapons, from the 18th to 20th. Each was used to its utmost potential, with unrelenting fury, causing serious injury and a few deaths to mostly gun-free police, as well as at least one civilian supporter of the government who died: - Cobblestones and rocks - Bats and clubs - medieval maces or, rather, flails - molotov cocktails, right on policemen's heads - Feet and fists --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:36, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Mapping the Events
The yellow circle by the October Palace is the big "rotary phone dial" clock from early in the 40-minute video. 4:00 1:15 (at video's start) if accurate. The action then runes southeast up the Instyutska towards the apparent seat of Ukraine's government. Behind them, the Maidan, overlooked by the hotel (among other things) where protesters were shot dead on the 20th. Thanks to CE for initial tips and Wikimpaia markings. When we identify areas of interest in a broader or narrower zone, different maps might be made. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Updates (for next version) - "Government building" is where the ministries work. Parliament is behind/north of that. To the south, presidential administration, to the SE, Regions party HQ, torched with a worker apparently murdered. Isn't it odd how as soon as the Nazi hordes get to this vital area, parliament can suddenly vote differently (is the roster full or didn't a lot of members feel compelled to run away?), dismiss and appoint and re-jigger whatever they want? It's as if this Nazi mob were a bunch of knights, saving the princess of Ukrainian democracy held prisoner by some dragon (the law on the land) they had to slay to set her free. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The Ukraine hotel is where Maidan snipers were said to be stationed. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed, and by both sides. Other than up the Instyutska, it's the only place they're mentioned shooting from. The one going up the street had ther shields up against fire from the SE. So ... if the snipers at the hotel were on the government side, why did they never shoot those guys in the friggin back? All killed were by luck shots to the head and chest. And if that's because the snipers there were rebel ones, then ... well, the people at the Maidan too were reported getting shot with snipers (still parsing reports) --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The long 40-minute video shows the militants in the stretch between the hotel and what must be the metro station, with the circular plaza. The final line they're holding there, furthest point we see, is at its far edge, about at the "n" in Instytutska. That's just over 100 meters from the government center. I don't think they show what, if anything, happened next. Did the people who torched the Regions HQ come from the other side, or what it these guys, after they finished busting through? --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:12, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hotel Ukraine
(forthcoming)

Instytutska Front Lines
Palace Bridge: The first front-line on the push down that red line was at the pedestrian bridge between the Maidan and the October palace. north of that seems to be, as of noon, part of the insurgent-held Maidan at large. The long video, at its start, shows people and supplies packed densely on the street up to and beneath the bridge, but stopping cleanly at its far edge. Past there, the people are thinner and busier, inching forward behind shields, sometimes being shot, dragging debris and tires for the next front line, or dragging back wounded. This is not an area of protest, but of some militant endeavor. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Note in the inset image (from RT raw video feed, August 20) the red-over-black flag planted here. As CE identified it above, this seems to be the WWII-era flaf of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of Fascist-Nazi-nationalist Ukrainian hero (to some) Stepan Bandera (see UIA/UPA Wikipedia page). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:47, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Metro Station: The furthest front line that's visually established is at the far edge of the metro station, just over 100 meters from the edge of the government compound (ahead and to the left in the composite view below, stitched from portions of the 40-minute video. From right to left, note: the round terminal of the station, a White Power Celtic cross, the one and only such neo-Nazi symbol that ACLOS has spotted so far on February 20. The rest of a row of shields, beynd which is one further barricade of various junk that's not yet adequate. At the end of the long video (around 40:30) the men are draggind a burned-out bus up the street, presumably to beef up that front line. But after this, videos of this front and the government's nerve center just beyond get thinner to perhaps non-existent. Time of this establishment: if the big clock by the bridge is accurate, the long video starts at 12:15 PM (see 0:01, and at 5:40 note it's 12:21). So 40 minutes after the start, minus unknown edits/gaps, means it ends no earlier than 12:55 PM, likely a bit afterwards - 1:30-ish sounds right. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Shooting Directions
This is what's interesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Or, rather, a concept that's valid except where it dramatically doesn't apply. This graphic is not accurate, but a start to the discussion below leading that way. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:38, 8 March 2014 (UTC)



Here's a new video analysis of the guys filmed from behind who I said were also shot from behind, Petri disagreed and you apparently as well. That's right behind the Hotel Ukraine and both filming and shooting comes from the Hotel, I'm now more convinced than before (which doesn't mean there's no additional shooting from the direction they are advancing to). He has footage from the other side of Instytuska that makes it even more clear. --CE (talk) 20:05, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * This does need re-visiting. I was agreeing with you on the bullet direction, just not the significance. My best guess is it was a fragment on a ricochet track. Before I check this video (and it is playing here, hooray) my take has been that no significant fire came at the "unarmed activists" from behind, or they'd be shielding themselves from it, which you never see. There might be fore towards security forces, or towards hippies on the Maidan, but not likely their own white power foot soldiers here. My basic thought could even survive one or two pot-shots on their own side, just to blame the "regime" or to take out a guy someone doesn't like. But the first seems a stupid and useless thing to do and the second is pure imagination. Shooting from behind at these insurgents will, to most, say it was Berkut in the hotel. But, I will see what it says... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:07, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Obviously, my analysis was premature. The video is quite good. The first example of the kid around 13:00 in the raw video, is especially clear. He almost seems to see the gun pointed at him, starts rising, as if to run away, gets shot. Can't tell where he was hit, but he lived at least initially - I wonder if he ever talked? The blue spray seems strange. I can still see both directions. There's a gap, and ricochet off the tree. It seems he and the tree and his shield are all hit - the shield has two new dents afterwards, can't tell which way. Next, I'll check the person shot in green, and the part towards the end, WTH? All those right against the wall, suddenly falling? That's spooky.


 * Okay, if it's like this, people will just say somehow the Berkut were still in the hotel. But all these people weren't told that. They think the hotel has their back, and with some reason I'm sure. They never seem to get the idea the fire is coming from behind, or could be. They may just keep presuming the Berkut have a slightly different angle now, or their shield slipped ... I wonder how many wondered as they lay there that came from my side, didn't it?" I still think they wouldn't shoot useful militants, but it's not clear what these people are doing anyway, or who they are. Were some expendable hippie types recruited to help out here in the early part? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)


 * HOW did we all miss all these other segments? CE, you caught the bark chipping. Good. This video maker pol27 maybe, way ahead of us. And you caught that too. Good. Considering, that tree shot is looking less like a fluke, and you were calling that. I disagree here with the rolling guy. I enhanced that ricochet from ahead. But, the other important spots I agree with are at 16:42 and after in the long video. Note here a cut in the video, and as I've seen before and always looks bad, the next shots comes right as the camera resumes (if this is edited later, moot point).


 * At 16:45 is the sequence at the end of the analysis video - one man behind that low wall, then another, fall as they're hit. More then moving shields, this wall sets the line of fire to, at best, to their left, or about at the edge of the insurrgent-held October Palace complex (or on such a line). Otherwise, the range of fire excludes the Berkut positions ahead, and includes of course the hotel. From how they fall, I can't say what direction.


 * The man in green, previously on trips back and forth to help load and then shield the dead, is an expert in shielding against fire from thataway. He's been crouching after another run, not even behind the wall but by it. As the two are shot next to him, he stands and runs, shield up the "correct" way but no good. He's hit about four steps into it. I was seeing two different motions, each consistent with a different angle. But the overall spin as he falls suggests a shot from behind/the hotel, and also the force of the shot seems to halt his stride, suggesting it came from about where he was running to (safety, he thought). He's been hit in the left side near the heart, apparently in the back/side. It seems designed to be fatal. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think he also gets shot in the left leg. It seems like these guys (him and the boy anyway) are being hit not with single sniper rounds, but volleys of semi-automatic fire. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:38, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this guy shoots to kill. There are more good analysis around by now. Did you see the German dubbed one I posted Monday (Russian/Ukrainian(?) original here)? This has also very interesting footage you will mostly understand without the narration. That makes it absolutely clear that our controversy captioned guys with yellow bands are not Right Sektor in disguise, but special forces like Petri was 100% sure. It has footage from the 19th where they guard the October Palace and on the 20th how they were attacked from the north-west, retreated with several injured/dead (best seen towards the end of the video) to the position were they famously are seen, and then shoot at the advancing guys with their shields - but they don't aim at the people, there are no hits, they just make them retreat (6:15 following). Those scenes also explain why the guys with their shields dare to advance in the first place, because up at the October Palace, their armed comrades take up the special forces. Video has also footage from inside the Hotel, from the entrance which was quite obviously controlled by the "people protectors", shows more guys with rifles (or are these "air guns"), etc. --CE (talk) 14:27, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This was the putsch video? It didn't play or save before. Now I have it. The hotel footage - did you see what they were being rushed into on the ground floor? The elevator, with rifles. Or air rifles, urgently needing elevated. Time: I think 12:30 or so. Will check more and type less for a bit --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:44, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The first victim we see get shot here is the boy (at least five people are down before it starts rolling). He starts with no shield, until another guy hands him one. Within seconds of having it up, he's ironically shot, apparently from the direction he wasn't shielded. But just to be clear, I wanted to show the dents. At the bottom is the one there before. Higher up, two dents appear as the boy's hit. Or am I just missing them before? Do we think these are punched out, from the hotel direction? I'm not sure how to read it, but it seems the other way around to me, despite the other clues. - --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:38, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * But I note in analysis there's a distinct, circular, light patch on the tree for just a moment - that must be sunlight off the shield, perhaps where the new dent shines it up - which fits with a hotel direction or, perhaps, the ground between, and further to the kid's left. That's numerous hits, BTW, all at once. At least two to hit his and double-ding the shield. That suggests automatic/semi, not a sniper rifle, correct? --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:57, 8 March 2014 (UTC)



Next, we get more specific alleged directions for security fire. AP March 7:
 * On Wednesday, Prosecutor General Oleh Makhntisky said officials have found sniper bullet casings on the National Bank building a few hundred yards up the hill from Maidan, the square that became the center and the symbol of the anti-government protests. He said investigators have confirmed snipers also fired from the Hotel Ukraine, directly on the square, and the House of Chimeras, an official residence next to the presidential administration building.

These spots are mapped in the inset image. The southern one seems to have a tall building blocking the line of fire. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:10, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Read "hotel, directly on the square" not "fired directly on the square from the hotel." I was confused at first. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:57, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Previously, BBC's Gabriel Gatehous went to Kiev February 25 with "British forensic experts" who were show bullet holes, building tops, and alleged government orders to make case for four sniper positions (aside from the October palace, irrelevant to the shooting massacre).

He was told about no fire coming from the hotel, only towardas it, from a total of four locations. These, he says at 2:30, included a barricade I haven't seen, but that must be just beyond the sandbag line at the metro station. That spot was supported by new video of police there with guns pointing out (at some point). The other sniper nests, he was told, three were in the tall buildings just behind that - the National Bank (a balcony was singled out, not the roof), the corner tower of what Wikimpaia says is Bankova Vulytsa, across the street, and the fourth spot unclear - maybe the national's roof. No house of chimeras mention either. These lines are added to the map now in orange, for six alleged firing directions, only one of which really seems to matter.

Here's an image I made from compositing several frames, at about 16:08 in the 41-minute video. It shows a hot round hitting that pole and bouncing back in fragments. It's hard to be totally sure what angle this is, but it appear much too oblique, traveling across the camera's view, or from too far north, to fit with any of the six directions identified above - approximately from the ten o'clock position relative to the Instytutska. Is this a seventh direction? Is it where the guy chasing the Berkut wound up, before taking up position ahead of these people he's helping to pin down? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

The March 7 AP article talks to "One of the victims of the snipers" - Alexander Tonskikh, age 57. "He told AP that at around 10 a.m. on Feb. 20, he and dozens of opposition fighters moved south out of the main battleground on Maidan." He's apparently working from GMT time, and rounding down, or the writer perhaps added the time. It seems to be about 12:30 they started. Or, he qwasn't there and used news reports with GMT times to make up the story. The interview must be by phone or maybe Skype - the two contributing reporters are at the UN and in Estonia. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:10, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * In an instant, he said snipers began firing from at least two different directions, from what seemed to be the rooftops of government buildings, between 200 and 300 yards away.
 * He said dozens of people were "mowed down like grass" as he and others crouched behind a waist-high stone wall, holding wooden clubs and metal riot shields.
 * At least 10 people, he said, were killed instantly, and many others wounded. The bodies piled up on top of each other like fallen tree branches.
 * Shooting then began from a third direction, he said. As he crouched with his back to a tree, he was hit by a bullet that entered his right arm, went through his right side, punctured his lung and lodged just below his heart. He then lost consciousness. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:10, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * That's an odd-sounding scenario, but there is one guy on video, leaning against part of a tree, who's shot from behind/the right. See 2:43 video, at 1:23. In fact, the angle may not line up with the hotel, or any direction yet identified. More like due west to the hotel's northwest. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

So now they're saying all shooting directions were used, all by the alleged Russian villains. Three six directions alleged, with only one apparently visible, audible, or fatal (to any real degree). And that's the hotel. These shots we hear, an expert should say but they don't sound 250-350 meters  distant. And then there's the question of how the snipers stopped. The hotel's app. single sniper was reported caught at 1:15 PM (I expect they'll finally mention him again soon, and he's a Russian guest of the real government). They don't say where, but of the three spots, the hotel is the only one the rebels operated. At this point, consistent with their story, the shooting from the hotel stopped. We don't know if the other locales stopped, because they seem to have no effect. All deadly shooting seems to stop once they decided the hotel was done (not 100% sure, but the 41-min. video has visible shootings where victims fall, for 15 minutes with some edits, from 12:00-27:00, with all but 3 visible shootings between 12 and 17:00 - he petered off before getting caught). --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Timeline
I'll start with a BBC timeline. I'm not sure how comprehensive it is - the death toll seems to stop at about 50, when it seems to have finally hit 80+. This covers only 4 hours on the 20th. And there seems to be no one point, like I thought, where 20 protesters - clearly, not militants - on the Maidan were shot at once. Anyway, other sources can be added. Emphasis on guns, control, security situation. Most entries of people saying stuff, etc. left out. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Are those local times or UK times? It seem they are UK times because I looked up the SPIEGEL livetickers and it seems that their reporting is one hour later, for example the snipers shooting at Hotel Ukraine are reported by BBC at 10:51 and by SPIEGEL at 11:57. Which sounds logical and means that the local time is two hours ahead of the BBC timestamps and one hour ahead of SPIEGEL. On the 18th SPIEGEL has no liveticker but reports about the demonstration in the park I mentioned above, although they make it seems that anti-Government protesters clashed with Berkut, not mentioning the pro-Government/anti-Fascist protesters attacked. SPIEGEL links below (will check that for discrepancies and interesting stuff later) --CE (talk) 14:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It did say GMT, I think, and is either way. Should be done in local. Will be updated soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

[BBC] = As it happened: Clashes in central Kiev times corrected to local (+2 hours) [Clock] = time read from the giant clock by the Maidan (presumed acurate) [Trans] - Maidan Translators
 * SPIEGEL:
 * Report from the 18th
 * live ticker from the 19th
 * live ticker from the 20th

11:21: Both parliament and cabinet buildings are evacuated, with reports of police surrendering - (BBC Monitoring) [BBC]

11:25: The BBC's David Stern in Kiev says: ... The sound of the gunfire from Institutskaya street can be heard throughout Independence Square, and makeshift hospitals are littered with casualties and the seriously injured. [BBC]

11:30: Journalist Christopher Miller in Kiev tweets: "More than 50 captured police led inside the energy building next door to city hall pic.twitter.com/KUKEnERFQU" [BBC]

11:30: "Dozens of activists are killed in Thursday's confrontation by fire aimed directly at protesters' heads, chests and hearts. Sniper rifles and Kalashnikovs were apparently used," a 5 Kanal TV presenter said. [BBC]

11:38: The Ukrainian Health Ministry in a statement on Thursday says that 28 people have died and 287 have been hospitalised during two days of street violence. [BBC]

11:59: A statement from Ukraine's presidency via BBC Monitoring says: "The opposition leaders' calls for a truce and dialogue were nothing but a way for playing for time to mobilize and arm militants from Maidan [Independence Square]." [BBC]

12:02: More from President Viktor Yanukovich's statement: "They (the protesters) went on to the offensive. They are working in organised groups. They are using firearms, including sniper rifles. They are shooting to kill." [BBC]

12:10: At least 21 civilians have been killed near Independence Square [BBC]

12:13: Polish Foreign Minister Radoslav Sikorski: "We've seen these horrific pictures from Kiev which are some of the largest uses of force in Europe in recent memory. " [BBC]

App. 12:22 The last (it seems) of the Berkut at the yellow-walled October Palace evacuate, as insurgent hurl fire, fireworks, and maybe gunfire at them. They march south up Instytutska. [clock - see 5:00-6:38 in 41-min vid, end lines up w/2:26 in RT reporter's video It's insurgent held after this.

App. 12:27-29: based on the above, RT's reporter in his video says it was five or 7 minutes after police left that bullets started flying and people started getting shot behind the hotel.

12:37: One policeman is killed and 28 suffer gunshot wounds on Thursday, Interior Ministry spokesman Serhiy Burlakov tells the Associated Press. [BBC]

12:44: Thirteen of the protesters killed in Independence Square on Thursday morning died from single gunshot wounds fired by a sniper, a medic in Independence Square tells Interfax-Ukraine news agency. [BBC]

Duncan Crawford, BBC reporter in Kiev tweets this picture of bullet holes in windows at the back of the hotel: [BBC]

12:51: Kateryna Kruk, The Guardian tweets: "Snipers are shooting from from Hotel Ukraina and Instytutsjka, more dead around"[BBC]

1:01: Leaders of protesters' "self-defence units" put out a Facebook statement saying they "will do all they can to stop the bloodshed and guarantee top officials' security" if police stop firing, says BBC Monitoring's Vitaliy Shevchenko.[BBC]

1:21: One of the three top opposition leaders in Ukraine - Arseniy Yatsenyuk - says snipers are firing at protesters from the Ukraina hotel, which dominates Independence Square. [BBC]

1:31: The lobby of the Ukraina hotel - overlooking Independence Square - has been turned into an impromptu morgue, AP reports, with the bodies of seven dead protesters laying side by side under white sheets on the marble floor in front of the reception desk. [BBC]

2:22: Erin Alexis tweets: Situation in #Ukraine horrifying. Reports of #doctors being shot by snipers as they care for the wounded. Terrible. [BBC]

2:38: In a televised statement Interior Ministry spokesman Valeri Mazan denounces the protesters: "Today, despite it being the day of mourning, despite the truce, they fire at riot police and internal military forces, targeting them with weapons since the early morning on Instytutska street. At this moment there are more than 20 injured police officers who have been taken to hospital for medical treatment." [BBC]

2:46: "The armour-piercing ammunition used by snipers' "fells protesters one after another", says journalist Dmitriy Steshit, who works for Russian newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda. He tweets from Institutska Street in central Kiev. [BBC]

Commenting on reports that witnesses had seen snipers firing live ammunition during the clashes, Lidington told the BBC he had raised the issue with the ambassador, who had not been able to give a "definitive view". He said: "There should be a full and independent thorough investigation of those killings." "The people responsible for those shootings need to be held to account, wherever they come from." [BBC]

15:29: Igor, Kiev emails: Everyone has a right to protest, but nobody has a right to destroy a beautiful city, and hold the same city and its population hostage to political demands by violent means. [BBC]

More sources
A section to organize, anchor original citations for, and comment on, at least some important sources that are, or should be, cited here.


 * German Blogger Urs 1798 on Ukraine: Ukraine, die Menschjagd wurde eröffnet, deutsche Journalisten jagen mit. Update – 20/02/2014
 * Кто организовал бойню на Институтской? Вопросы к "Батькивщине" (Who organized the massacre at Instytutska ? Questions to the " Fatherland ") By Alexander Vorontsov, УБОП (ubop.net.ua/) February 25, 2014. This is a Ukrainian-labguage report, hard for us to make sense of yet, but based on visual evidence (videos and scene photographs), so it's sure to be valuable, regardless of the arguments he makes (which might be really good) See above:
 * BBC News: As it Happened: Clashes in Central Kiev One useful source to start assembling the timeline section.
 * Maidan Translators: all posts tagged "snipers"
 * Kirit Radia, ABC News Blogs or whatever: Inside Kiev’s Ukraine Hotel – the Makeshift Hospital and Morgue A good source for tweets and other bits from inside the hotel, to be cited in the relevant section.
 * Vesti.ua, Feb. 19: Погиб корреспондент "Вестей" Вячеслав Веремий (a journalist of theirs, shot by "masked men" late on the 18th)
 * Vesti.ua, Feb. 27: Finally, our investigation into the murder of journalist Vyacheslav Veremei engaged Prosecutor General's Office and the Interior Ministry More details, eyewitness account, video stills, etc.
 * To find: leaked conversation between Yarosh and Tatar leader in the Crimea. Yarosh promises to send in the UNA-UNSO. (Makes me suspect that UNA-UNSO has been involved on many of the other provocateur sniper precedents in the last decades.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:01, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The Crimean Anti-Coup Move – Moon of Alabama, March 01, 2014
 * ''“Everything is going according to the plan. We are ready to proceed with the second part of the play. As agreed earlier last week, my guys together with people from the “Karpatskaya Sech” and UNA-UNSO will arrive wherever is needed and with the necessary weapons. You only need to let us know the addresses of the warehouses in Simferopol, Sevastopol, Kerch, Feodosia and Yalta, and the time of the meeting…”


 * Urs: Ashtons Telefongespräch und sofortige Zensur bei der Tagesschau #Ukraine (Ashton's phone call and immediate censorship in the news #Ukraine)
 * Who Were Snipers In Kiev Massacre - A CIA-Svoboda False Flag Op? – Oui, Feb 24th, 2014


 * Russia and Ukraine give different versions of sniper tragedy that drove Yanukovych from power - Associated Press, March 7. Detailed report on initial "Ukrainian government investigation" pointing to Russia, their parrying of the fallout into that, one of the victims describes shooting angles, etc.


 * How the Events of Sniper Fire In Instytutska Street Unfolded – Oui, Mar 7th, 2014
 * Everyone Agrees that Ukraine Sniper Attacks Were a False Flag – Washington’s Blog, March 9, 2014
 * Mystery snipers – March 09, 2014
 * Замедленная съемка показала, откуда летели пули снайперов Майдана – 06.03.2014

Whodunit?
HRI Mark pieces this together:
 * @Kilicbil Hi - regarding this pic - who added the info regarding suspected sniper? http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/man-suspected-of-being-a-sniper-and-member-of-the-pro-news-photo/474130789
 * @Kilicbil Hi Bulent - are you & AFP aware that this man is Rostislav Vasilko - a Communist Party official? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=672554276134265

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

From around: "A man suspected of being a sniper and member of the pro-government forces is forced by anti-government protestors to pay his respects to a mourning place of a victim killed in the recent clashes in Kiev on February 22..." That was pretty clear though. A sniper? Who was THE sniper? Is this the guy they caught at 1:15, just kept around and dragged out for photos? That does look like him. Horrific details here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)