Talk:Al-Bayda Massacre

This page has long lacked an introduction. The page is now mammoth.

This horrendous massacre of at least 70-100+ civilians, including women and children, many killed with blades and some burned, occurred in al-Bayda (here on Google maps) in the mountains 5-6 km south of coastal Baniyas. It was reportedly carried out by the Syrian military and "Shabiha," but as usual, that rebel explanation for another batch of bodies is contested by much evidence.

See also our page on next-day Baniyas massacre in the nearby Ras al-Nabi' district of Baniyas city and its talk page. The two, with a combined death toll unknown but probably well into the hundreds, are closely related to each other and in most ways blend together in often confusing ways. Towns and farms in between, and times running up to May 6, come into play. But the events in al-Bayda were the spark that set off this wider cluster of killings. It set the tone. Whoever committed al-Bayda also committed the other Baniyas area killings of innocents. Luckily, it also offers more useful specifics and evidence to help answer those underlying question.

The following is a detailed analysis and discussion of those specifics. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Death Toll
Early reports were a bit vague, and the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights heard "several and conflicting reports on the number of people killed in the village of al-Bayda by regime forces and pro-regime gunmen from the nearby villages." Some said more than 50, while other said more than 100. SOHR May 2 By May 3, SOHR heard "No less than 51 people were summarily executed," including women and children, and not clearly excluding combatant deaths on either side. SOHR May 3 The BBC reported on May 4 that 72 had died. A list of 70 names pops up from the Syrian Center for the Documentation of Violations' database for May 2 deaths in "Banias: Beida." All are listed as civilian, all field executed. There are another two names listed under Aleppo but who died in Beida, and they're also in the 70 - listed twice. (see below). --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC) Syrian loyalist site SyrianMasah.net, Arabic, reported after the massacre (translated) "This has been found the bodies of 62 civilians in the countryside of Banias in a new massacre added to the Jabhat al-Nusrah massacres."

I believe I saw wild reports (specifically about al-Bayda and not Baniyas) saying hundreds (400 or 800) were killed. If I run across that again, will post here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Revolting Syrian: "A total of 141 men, women and children are confirmed to have been killed by Assad’s forces in the villages of Al Bayda and Ras Al Nabeh (combined). Activists in the villages are saying that upto 800 people have been killed so far." How many in just Bayda in these high-end estimates remains unsure.

An account at Islam Syria (Google translated from Arabic) explained how "having killed the men and young boys," the Shabiha "entered into people's homes, killing harem and children shot dead, slaughtered knives," killing "nearly 400 innocent to the same (?) 500." Another report described "the Bayda operation, which resulted in the death of more than 400 civilians, all of whom are villagers in impoverished rural towns, slaughtered by regime militants."

The largest list of actual names we could find, closest to the alarmist numbers bandied about, seems to cite 165 victims, all in Arabic, ostensibly from the al-Bayda massacre alone, but compiled only on May 6. The list is signed "تجمع نبض للشباب المدني السوري" ( organization of the pulse of young people, Syrian civil, something ). They note cautiously this is only the victims they could document, but many more were surely killed! There are many names given, and some reason to believe the smaller list of 70 is missing at least some verified victims (especially children -the videos show more of these killed than appear in the SCDV database).

Update: I'm about half-done digesting this big list. A lot of the new names and variations are fleshing out interesting patterns, like how most victims seem to be of a few families all related one way or another to government-loyalist imam Sheikh Omar Biassi. And so I suspect it's at least mostly based on real people. It definitely includes deaths given by the SCDV as happening after May 2, however. So for starters it's not even comparable to the 70 listed there as dying on the 2nd. It might include people who went missing from there as rebels retreated (reported as hundreds, quite possibly dozens), killed off over the following days in different locales. The list quite possibly contains duplicate entries, and at least one blank entry (31-32 is followed by only one name). So it seems the initial death toll could be above the 70 we were been working with before this find, but I might have over-stated that possibility. Not that the initial 70 should be the benchmark for the death toll. They all seem related, and it might be that some 150-ish people were massacred in part just to make a huge example of that meddling imam. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

The September Human Rights Watch report and Channel 4 documentary cite a confirmed 167/169 victims, based on opposition sources, and on alleged survivors provided by them. Sam Dagher's visit-based report (the only Western media outlet to do so), speaking with non-opposition locals, heard that 139 were killed.
 * Abdel-Halim al-Shogri, an imam in Bayda who was tasked by the government with counting the village’s dead, said he tallied 139 bodies from the May 2 assault, including one found in mid-June in a nearby orchard. He said 31 bodies were so severely burned that they couldn’t be identified. Other residents said they took his tally as fact. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that according to our research, an al-Shoghri family lost several members, and Human Rights Watch heard that they were killed in homes right next to the mosque, which was torched. He was probably counting his own family members, to a large extent. At any rate, out death toll appears roundly confirmed as being well over 100, with 139 the new low and an extra 30 - somehow not known on the city's end but tallied by rebel "first responders" - seeming reasonable.--Caustic Logic (talk) 08:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not up to correlating to see what's new or just doubled here, but the DCHRS did a year-later report a year ago in Arabic here that gives names up to a point for what it calims is a massacre total of 264 civilian victims in al-Bayda alone, not counting any rebel fighters or any of the dozens of captured "Shabiha." This is 3.5 times as many as there's any credible evidence for their being, but they give names, so... maybe later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

A Victims List
First, since we have the ensuing Baniyas massacre(s) mixed-in, this list is only for those victims given for al-Bayda, on May 2, May 3, or any other relevant day that might pop up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC) (First entry with Arabic is from Saned N.N Facebook
 * 1) Omar Nassiriyah aka/alias Omar Biassi  ( عمر نصرية الملقب عمر بياسي  )- Omar Biassie, Imam of al-Bayda mosque, executed with family by rebels
 * 2) Manar Albiassi (  منار البياسي ), killed with husband Zakaria al-Shawish. Alt: Manar Biaasie, The Imam’s sister, also killed by rebels with "her husband and their kids."
 * 3) Zakaria al-Shawish ( زكريا الشاويش ) killed with his wife Manar Albiassi. Alt: killed with their children as well.
 * 4) (unnamed, un-numbered: the children here)
 * 5) Yousef Fattouh ( يوسف فتوح  )
 * 6) Yousef Fattouh's brother ( وشقيقه )
 * 7) Abu Ahmed Munira ( ابو احمد منيرة )
 * 8) Sabah/Sbah al-Shehri/alshghry ( صباح الشغري )
 * 9) Yasser Taha ( ياسر طه  )
 * 10) Mohammed Safi Tyba ( محمد صافي طيبا )
 * 11) Maaz Tyba ( معاذ طيبا )
 * 12) Abdul Qader/Abdelkader Udour/qdwr (? translates "pots") Walid/wald Mohammed (? Mohammed's Father) high/graduated (grandfather?), ( عبد القادر قدور والد محمد )

Total: 11 plus the children (14-17 is a reasonable guess) "and all of them were killed by burning." ( عليا وجميعهم استشهدوا حرقا )
 * Clearly an incomplete list, app. from first/vague reports. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Syrian Center for the Documentation of Violations
All deaths in Baniyas:Beida, May 2: 70 names, all civilian, all field executed (as given). --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * For some reason, the list now says there are 69 entries, not 70. Hmmm... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Arab Worlds
This much bigger list seems to be closer to the alarmist numbers bandied about. It seems to cite 165 victims, all in Arabic, but compiled only on May 6. The list is signed "تجمع نبض للشباب المدني السوري" ( organization of the pulse of young people, Syrian civil, something ). They note cautiously this is only the victims they could document, but many more were surely killed! The intro text relates a story similar to what we've hear but with frequest reference to Christians - apparently on the attacking end, coming from a village Marah ( المراح ) and/or a mountain ( العجمة ), with Muslim captives taken to a village alzubh ( الزوبة ) and burned alive. The initial attack, they heard, "killed three members of the Free Army and the escape of the other two (?)" anyway, the list is my point, it's huge. I didn't notice any that should be listed under Baniyas, nor tagged any duplicate entries (despite looking at some possible ones - ex: #14 Sheikh Omar Biasi vs. #93 Bashari Omar Biasi. 41-49/50 are what we call below the Fattouh-Biassa sub-family, larger than listed below, more babies. More Biasis, and several other families must have extra members, plus other families, including kids (youngest ages only generally noted) and what seems to be a 100-year-old (#73, Mohamed Taha). An anonymous 8-year-old boy (#161), 4 unnamed workers for Omar Badawi? (162-65) Etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ماذا حدث في البيضا : عن شهود عيان .... ( " What happened in Beida: witnesses .... " )
 * As I consider higher death tolls, still on the lookout for duplicate entries and inflation. Found at least two mis-placed entries: 64 - Osman Mustafa Jalul ( عثمان مصطفى جلول ) 65 - Abdel Rahman Said Jalul ( عبد الرحمن سعيد جلول ) The first doesn't appear in the SCDV database, but the second Abdulrahman Moustafa Saeid Jalloul is listed there as killed in Ras al-Nabea May 4. As noted below, there are four Omar Biasis listed. And then there are a large number of confusingly similar named-a Mohammed Ahmed and then an Ahmed Mohammed, etc. Consider three sets of Yasser Ahmed and Maysar Ahmed: #62/63 (Taha), 81/82 (Shehadeh), 132/133 (Taha again). This thing is puffed up. I'm sensing/guessing (broadly) about 80-120 actual victims, extra members added and new people made up by re-mixing others. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Coordinating Body
Coordinating body for the Syrian revolution (هيئه التنسيق للثوره السوريه), Facebook: Coordinating body for the Syrian revolution posted May 2, 2013 10:11 PM Syria time
 * Banias martyrs who died slaughtered in the village of al-Bayda and that have been توثيقهم so this moment 18 entries, some with numerous members, most specified as "slaughtered." Straight Google translated:

1 - Martyr Safa Ali Biasi and her sons and daughters .. Qdo slaughtered .. 2 - Shaheed Mohamed Fattouh Biasi martyred husband Safaa Ali Biasi .. Slaughtered 3 - martyr, God willing, Aisha Aziz Biasi and her sons and daughters slaughtered 4 - Martyr Abdullah Fattouh Biasi martyred husband Aisha Aziz Biasi .. Slaughtered. 5 - Shaheed Sheikh Omar Aziz Biasi is spent and his sons and daughters and his wife slaughtered .. 6 - Shaheed Ahmed Aziz Biasi is spent & Sons slaughtered ... 7 - Shaheed Mohamed Daaboul East son Mustafa .. Slaughtered 8 - Martyr Manal the Izz al-Din and her father Azzedine slaughtered 9 - Martyr very morning الشغري the 70-year-old and her elder son and grandson slaughtered .. 10 - Martyr Abdul Qadir pots 11 - Martyr Zakaria Shawish .. 12 - martyr Omar Aziz Biasi slaughtered 13 - Martyr Maaz good slaughtered 14 - Manar martyr Izz al-Din and her father Azzedine slaughtered 15 - Shahid ruled pots and great son slaughtered 16 - Zakaria Ahaich the slaughter 17 - Shaheed Ahmed Mohamed الشغري and his son and his mother morning الشغري the 18 - Martyr morning darling and her children and her daughters slaughtered

SNHR
[http://sn4hr.org/public_html/wp-content/pdf/english/banias-eng.pdf The Most Heinous Crime of the Modern Era: Banyas Massacre ... Blatant Ethnic Cleansing in Syria] Syrian Network for Human Rights, 10/5/2013

This report goes further than any others I've seen, giving 458 killed in al-Bayda and Baniyas massacres combined, with "263 civilian victims" in al-Bayda alone, including 43 children and 28 women. Also including 192 men (or unclear gender maybe) by my count. They provide a list which also includes non-civilians: entries 225-228 - "four unknown victims - dissident soldiers" as usual slaughtered by Shabiha or soldiers, plus 45 unknown victims (157-160 "unknown victim - executed and burned" and 229-263 "34 unknown victims - executed and burned in Azzam Baiasi's shop")How is it known they're not repeats, or not fighters?). It does NOT include the 7-40 killed NDF fighters, as themselves. It says there was no rebel presence at all. Except, I guess, maybe the dissenters (not clear when they decided to disobey - implicitly last-second) and the "few armed rebel fighters" who popped in (from elsewhere?) when a "small clash occurred on a military checkpoint near Al-Baiyda" the morning of the day of the killings, with no fatalities on either side mentioned.

Like the Arab Worlds list above they list several Omar Biassis: 13 Omar Ahmad Baiasi - Imam mosque - known as Shikh Omar 16 Omar Aziz Baiasi 90 Omar Aziz Baiasi. That's an improvement - the other had four Omar Biassis (one was Omar Omar, not supported here or anywhere else).

Almost all other names seem familiar, on a scan. There may be a couple new family names, but I suspect it's like Arab Worlds, extra entries from re-mixing other names, and/or duplicating victims from Baniyas in the following days. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:25, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Correlating
Did I never publish a proper numbered list? This episode deserves a careful consideration of this. I think a PDF is in order to present a most-credible list, and behind it a table to correlate all provided IDs so we can see the padding. And while I'm at it, the whole area (relevant) death toll, Baniyas included, through May whatever (both massacres). No promises when or exactly how - the biggest victim list (SNHR) is in a copy-protected PDF, lost of transcribing needed...

In the meantime, still the VDC list seems most credible: all Tartous deaths, May 2-May 6 it turns out = 194 - about 70 in Bayda and 120 in Baniyas. The battle casualties don't seem to appear anywhere - regime forces May 2-6 has no such matches I caught yet. Do check the May 5 Tartous deaths - rebels got an air force! My report would include the ambush deaths but left unclear and set aside from the civilian massacre victims. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:25, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Identified Victims
The following subsets of various types of victims need sorted out individually for clues, the groups compared for possible overlap, and understood in time and space as much as possible. It might take a while, at our rate, to do it right. But below is a start. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Sections re-organized a bit. We now have some serious specifics below. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that nearly all of the family names appearing on the victim lists also appear in lists of those arrested (but not slaughtered!) in April 2011. These raids in al-Bayda were over disputed anti-government activities (protests vs. plots of a terrorist emirate). The impression this mass recurrence of names gives of targeting opposition families, after two years of apparent calm, has been somewhat underplayed by the rebels. It's also extremely questionable, considering how things had changed in those two years. The following analysis presumes first that the names given match with the victims, although that's not entirely certain. Are those killed the same or the same, or the same kind of, members of family X that were detained in 2011? Or are different cliques within the family singled out for these very different kinds of punishment? Only one family among them - Biassi - gives enough detail to partly answer that, but powerfully so. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The Imam and his Family

 * The stricken is old, best deleted, but it's not so easy to just do that. Just skip to the better stuff below. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:41, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Syrian Girl Partisan on Facebook posted one account from an activist, relating the basic common themes he heard from friends living in Baniyas (not eyewitnesses but informed). The Imam of Bayda mosque is central to this narrative, named as Omar Biassie. He was a former revolution supporter. until the rebels:
 * ...made a lie about him that SAA killed him. So he appeared on the Syrian TV saying they are lying and its part of the propaganda. Apparently FSA hated him for this. And now it was the right time to kill him and his family for real this time to blame the SAA and whine about it like they always do.

The second targeted family, the activist says, was the Imam’s sister, Manar Biaasie, massacred with her husband and their children. He cited a rebel-affiliated victims list, cited above, with these same names included, noting "they know exactly who they killed." And for context, his sources pointed out
 * Before the army got there, terrorists were in control of the town and did their massacre killing the 2 families of Baiaase. Army came, surrounded the Bayda. Killed the terrorists. 9 soldiers were martyred in this operation. Since there were army martyrs, it means the town was infected with many rats. So whoever killed those soldiers also killed the 2 families.

This remains to be confirmed by more detailed study, but it all sounds eminently plausible, given established precedents. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The timeline clues bear this out. Whoever killed the soldiers did it in the wee hours, reports say. the timeline below explains early morning rebel videos of massacre scenes, preceded by dark pre-dawn/midnight videos of the same scenes. At least 32 children, women, and men slaughtered just after the early rebel victory, some time before the start of the army assault. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Only one victims appears to be central to these events, the possible main target. That is Sheikh Omar Aziz Biassi ( بياسي - various transliterations), age 62, according to activist "Ahmad," who spoke to Reuters. They reported:
 * Sheikh Biyasi had been the village imam for 30 years. He was a government loyalist who alienated local people with his political views before resigning two years ago. "Even though he always opposed the protests, they still killed him," said Ahmad.

His family Biassi/Bayyasi/etc. was most widely represented in the 2011 arrests, with acouple of dozen reported arrests (some of them only brief). With less trouble through 2012 as rebels grew more armed and audacious nationwide. Then suddenly, days after rebels started promising to take the fight to Tartous, a reported 36 members of the Biassi family of all ages (per Ahmad and Reuters) were brutally massacred in May - under the murky circumstances examined here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The Saned N.N. victims list, above, names Sheikh Biassi, as well as his sister, but does not specify his position or relevance. Other initial reports made no special mention or note that among this genocide was such a prominent leader amongst Sunnis. However, pro-rebel Yalla Souriya reported, later, on May 4, that "Sheikh Omar Bayasi," shown dead in a rebel photo, was in fact "the Imam of al Bayda Mousqe in Bayda Village, Banias." He was killed May 2 in "Assad’s bloody massacre ... Rest in Peace Mr. Omar and Rest in Shame Humanity!" But it was the rebels who were there to take his photo to prove it, very close-up, with no Shabiha or army snipers barring the way to this citizen journalist-activist. The scene looks to be mid-morning, but that might be my imagination. No background clues on location. He has lain face-first in a pool of blood, marring his white hair and beard. The blood has dried a bit, but he's freshly dead. His face shows perhaps the most extreme disappointment. No precise clue to death - he wasn't killed by burning, from the neck up anyways. Blood from the nose, suggested, is consistent with a few things. source--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Biassi Family Politics
We have much new info on this coming up. A number of sources back to 2011 are starting to paint a picture of a family riddled with anti-government activism, protesting, fighting, getting arrested, killed in fighting, establishing an "emirate" with plans of blowing up the Baniyas refinery, more arrests, etc. That's first coming together here, for whatever reason. Sheikh Biassi's stance through that is unclear at this time (I hear he was a rebellion/protest supporter too, but haven't found confirmation yet). What's clear is that near the end of his life (last month at least), he had adopted a clear stand against the armed rebellion and in support of the government, without or preferrably with dialog and reconciliation. For now, the sources we collected earlier. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: the following is based on fusing the original content with new info summarized in two articles I put up at the CIWCL website (at top and then halfway down the page at this link).--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The families targeted in the May massacres - especially the Biassis - also have members involved in, or suspected of involvement in, the rebel's muted history around Baniyas. Most famously, a reported 100 local men and boys were briefly detained in mid-April, 2011, rounded up in the al-Bayda's main square and, in an infamous video, stomped on. At least fifteen family names appear on both lists, members arrested in 2011 and others slaughtered in 2013. Of course common family names in the same basic area doesn't always mean too much in the Arab world, but this seems beyond coincidence. (see below).

The Biassi family - apparently a large one with many sons - leads this parallel with some 12 arrests and a reported 36 deaths. Furthermore, some of the other familiar-named families suffering deaths in 2013 were from the portion that was married into the Biassis (see here and here).

So this decimated family was riddled with anti-government activism, and that should be considered alongside the victims these suffered, reportedly at the hands of the same pro-regime thugs who stomped on them two years earlier. But as we know the Biassi family of the Baniyas area is also marked with the public stance of the imam Sheikh Omar, which marks the presence of a rival clique within the family, one with a quieter profile and uncertain size. But it was likely of some influence if this leading member was so solidly in it. Put simply, we can call these two camps the Sheikh Omar school (pro-government) and the "Abu Ali" school (anti, see below). The following shares highlights of what we've found to describe each camp, it thoughts and actions, in the service of understand what happened to some among this divided mass of a family, and the many others others like it with their own names and histories. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The "Abu Ali" School
Twelve Biassis were among those arrested in the raids of mid-April, 2011 At least one member (possibly among those detained) seems to have been planning very ambitious "protests." A confession aired on May 23 claimed one "Abu Ali" Biassi was the "defense minister" of an "emirate" planned for Baniyas in these first days. According to the informant, a captured driver Abdul Qader Al Zeer, the "emir" to oversee the new kingdom was Sheikh Anis' ( انس ) Aarot. * They met at his home, and they were paid money and provided weapons from outside - explosives, rifles and pistols from Lebanon. Rahman Mosque was their warehouse. There was a plan of minister Biassi's to rig explosives at the Baniyas refinery and the thermal station, to be blown up on the orders of the ministers. They had the explosives, the captive driver says, but this was apparently where they were busted instead. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * This alleged would-be Emir is apparently alive and well, free in Turkey, and helping the "legitimate representatives of the Syrian people." To our "Sheikh Anis' ( انس ) Aarot," a Reuters report on the rebel push into Latakia, August 2013, cited one "Sheikh Anas Ayrount, a member of the Syrian National Coalition who is from the coastal city of Banias," as touting the closeness of strikes on Assad's ancenstral hometown of Qardaha.

One young man given as Ahmad Biassi was shown on a video of this time, in the al-Bayda square, holding his ID card and perhaps announcing his defection or anti-government beliefs. Ahmad was reported in May 2011, by the BBC and others, to have been arrested and tortured to death in a government prison. He appeared on Syrian state TV swiftly refuting that; he claimed to be alive and free, never was arrested, and was surprised and disturbed to hear otherwise. (ref...)

This Ahmad may present a transitional clique, people who supported the rebellion in its heady "Arab Spring" beginning but came to reject its brutality and/or deceit and turned fence-sitters or even government supporters. There is a victim of this name (Ahmed Mohammed Biassi) killed in 2013, but it's at least as likely to be a different but related man as it is to be him.

More raids and arrests came late in 2011, on December 5, with a Mustafa Biassi and Mohamed Biasi, among others, arrested. An Ahmed Biassi from Baniyas, visibly not the kid mentioned but probably related, died fighting with the FSA in Aleppo in September, 2012. But things remained fairly quiet around their hometown into the following year, until just before the massacres of May 2013. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:40, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

A Mustafa Ali Biassi, politics unknown but aged "near 50 years," was reported arrested on May 1, rebels saying security forces took him and therewas concern for his safety. But it came as rebels began various operation in the area involving abductions, as well as security forces starting a crackdown and arrests. Then - perhaps that night - came the massacres with so many members snuffed out, "fierce clashes," all through May 2, more arrests, and a time of calm.

There were more arrests and fighting July 20-22, and a reported mini-massacre of a Biassi-related family (Fattouh - see here.) A young Mohammed Mustafa Biassi (19) was arrested then and confessed on Sama TV, on the 27th, to helping plan attacks on police and military. We had this translated: "On the 20th of July 2013 we had a meeting at the house of Ibraheem al-Shoghri, second floor. The meeting's aim was to meet other leaders and to plan for Revenge operations against the Police and the Army in Baniyas." They came under attack instead, and he also told how his cornered group nearly tossed one of their "poisonous boms" at approaching soldiers but feared they would die as well. (if only they had long range rockets like the guys nearer to Turkey!)  --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The Sheikh Omar School
Again, this is of unknown size and fervor, we have so far only Sheikh Omar making a few appearances to give it a voice we can hear at the moment. That spokesman was described New York Times as "the village sheik, Omar al-Bayassi, whom some considered pro-government." Loyalist admirers claim him as one of their own; Voice of Russia spoke on the 4th to "political analyst Dr Haled Haydar of Baniyas," who denied any massacres there, but said this about the fighting on the 2nd in al-Bayda: "The military offensive was started in response to the brutal assassination of Sheikh Omar Baniyasi [sic], who was a member of the National Reconciliation Committee and a known advocate of interfaith dialogue and national unity. He was a true Syrian patriot. These are not values the rebels like. Opposition activist Ahmad cofirmed to Reuters "sheikh Biyasi … was a government loyalist who alienated local people with his political views." Were these "local people" "alienated" enough to kill him?

The imam's stance at the rebellion's outset isn't clear to us yet, but Ahmad told Reuters "he always opposed the protests." The earliest mention yet found says that in the hours before the December 5, 2011 arrests, someone - reportedly pro-regime militias - set fire to sheikh Omar's car. It might instead have been fellow Biassis, like the ones arrested for something criminal.

The site Islam Syria reported that among those massacred in May were "Baathists partisans ... including the imam of the mosque of Sheikh Omar Biasi. That Baathist appeared on (some TV channel) and pointed to the Mujahideen calling them armed terrorist gangs." It's probably a different video, shown by SANA, that the CIWCL/ACLOS located and had translated. In it, Omar shares some of his views at a conference featuring Catholic priests in the sparse audience. The video is not dated, but has him speaking at some length (1:28-2:00). This is the video: wIgwE-UD5P4 I had a friend translate the content (tweaked a bit here for grammar, and all paraphrased - I guessed a bit on the best word order for his line). --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * First soldier: The army has cleared the forest surrounding the village, and inside Al Bayda. They found a military base and a large weapons cache.
 * Second soldier: the militants have set fire to the buildings and the cars of the civilians.
 * Announcer: The armed terrorist gangs have killed Sheikh Omar Al Biassi, a member of the National Reconciliation Commission, which was calling for forgiveness and dialogue.
 * Biassi: We believe that resolving the crisis in Syria, which was safe and stable, will be done by dialogue, for the ship with its captain Bashar al-Assad to reach safety.
 * Announcer: residents say the terrorism does not scare them away, and they (something about needing) the Syrian Arab Army which protects them.

Note how the rebels who claim Sheikh Omar as a martyr meant to scare all Sunnis, can only show his bloodied face. SANA here lets you the see him speaking, showing a bit of his mind as well. It's probably these beliefs that got him and dozens of people related to him killed in those first dark hours of May 2, before the army could get there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Arabic-language sources from Syria have a little more info. Syrian Masah.net, Tartous 2Day, and the most detail at Syriatruth.org. These say (translated) he was "the imam of al-Bayda and a member of the National Reconciliation Commission" killed along with his son and his wife by "takfirists." There's a picture of him spliced over a Syrian national flag, looking like the same guy we see dead.

On April 3, 2013 - one month before the massacre - An "Omar Biassi" spoke up on a discussion forum, "think(ing) about how we can save the country" and "weep(ing) over the country." It's not certainly him, or even supposed to be, and the text is hard to translate. But this Omar mentions how "the state's uncle (Assad?) held traitors accountable" but this increased the "bleeding of the people." Of that, they had "two years and as much as we (can bear?)" "The only solution," he seemed to feel, was to "kill them." "Syria ... victorious, God willing." Another comment said "I agree with Omar Biasi," calling the rebellion a "poison" that "kills (Syria) from the inside." He or she clarified Biassi's position; "Syrian officials have proven their failure time and again" to stop the violence, but still "now is a great opportunity to put all the corrupt and traitors in prisons or graves."

Islam Syria reported "after the end of the interview" where sheikh Omar labeled the Jihadists terrorists, someone unspecified "dragged him to the arena (Which arena? Straight from the TV station?) and slaughtered him with his wife and four children.... Then they demolished the mosque of the village, and set fire to it" and blamed the same fictitious "armed gangs of terrorists" Omar had just pointed to. He and the other victims pleaded, it was learned somehow, "we Baathists like you, but they replied all of you are dogs and agents of Israel and America" and cut them down. And therefore, Islam Syria's ridiculous story continues, "it is clear and evident to the Baathists among the Sunnis that they are being targeted with death too," that even - that especially - "stand(ing) with tyrants" will not protect them. Their imminent mass-defection should be expected any day, if this is at all true. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Conclusion
U.N. Human Rights High Commissioner Navanethem "Navi" Pillay said, through a press officer on May 10, she was "appalled at the apparent killing of women, children and men in the village of Bayda, and possibly elsewhere in the Banias area," and felt that the killings "should spur the international community to act" to stop the fighting and hold the Syrian government to account, with only one cited reason: she felt the attacks "seemed to indicate a campaign targeting specific communities perceived to be supportive of the opposition." This quote was the launch point for my first article, which called her thinking sloppy, crude, (naïve?), and dangerous, taking it to be simply Sunnis being attacked for being against the state, as if all Sunnis were, or were thought to be by the regime's killers. But there might have been two things she referred to; Pillay could point to the the prominence of the Biassi family in the local opposition as evidence they (plus the 14+ other families with names appearing on both lists, arrested in 2011 and massacred in 2013) might be "perceived to be supportive of the opposition."

But this too, barring better specifics yet, would still be sloppy. The most prominent victim with the clearest political stance still remains Sheikh Omar Biassi, the imam of al-Bayda's mosque. He and his views alone proves there is another camp of unknown size, firmly anti-opposition. This creates the inverse corollary about who would have a reason to kill them as a "community perceived to be supportive" of the sovereign Syrian government. This mysterious clique lost at least one prominent member, to the unknown number killed - possibly zero - from among those who had signed on with the rebellion. It seems unlikely Ms. Pillay even considered this option that, considering the other evidence above and below on this page, appears more than likely the true one. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The Final Days
The violence pointing towards massacre started at the end of April. As Syria Truth reported, rebels had been talking about taking the fight to "their own house Nusayri (Alawites) in the Syrian coast," then they moved in and assassinated Colonel Ali Abu-Assad "near the area of ​​"Castle Bridge" near the village, where there is a military unit." Then on April 31 "gunmen targeted an army checkpoint in the area, prompting the army and security services to conduct, first on Wednesday (May 1) and then on Thursday (May 2) a campaign of combing raids inside the village "Beida"," as well as Ras al-Nabi' and other locales in the area. Reports of heightened security came through on May 1, like this Facebook post from 6:55 PM:It describes (in Arabic) various roadblocks and a high security presence all over, especially the refinery and Ras al-Nabi. "As heard gunfire from villages pro because of the advent of dead at the hands of the army free." (??) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

A little mentioned precursor to even the early ambush of May 2 comes through in early Facebook messages that (no later than 6:46 PM local) a Mustafa Biassi had just been abducted. Within 12 hours his (older brother?) and dozens of other members of their family would be abducted after some kind of release negotiations failed. This is coming together, for whatever reason, here first. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC) The 7:55 tweet linked above mentioned this: "barrier bridge groves Islam checkpoint with a car belonging to the security forces and lose arrest Mustafa Biasi." The earliest Facebook post saying this was this, from 6:46 PM local: "Mr. Mustafa Ali's arrest Biasi by a patrol had been present on the bridge groves Islam, at the age of nearly 50 years. We ask God deliver him and all detainees." This could be like the arrests of so many Biassis and members of other families like were seen in 2011. But this time, it came after two years of little such activity, and this sudden start turned instantly much more deadly. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify for those unsure, that's a clue this arrest raid was different. It might have targeted a different clique of each family than the arrests did. It came after two years of increasing foreign fighters and weapons and intensifying brutality, deception, and sectarianism. Two years of delay in the rebel hopes to "ignite" the coast in rebellion. It left the victims hacked up like terrorists would. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Syriatruth mentions a rebel "kidnapping" of "40 soldiers" in the clash of early May 2. This, they say:
 * ... prompted the army to assign imam of the village mosque "Beida" Sheikh Omar Biasi, which is known for that rejects violence and the carrying of weapons since the beginning of the crisis, to negotiate with the gunmen for the release of the hostages, but they refused to do so. Not content with the matter, but resorted to killing of Sheikh and his wife (there is information says they were killed in a slaughter, but it is uncertain). --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:48, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * His son Hamza at least appears to have been stabbed in the abdomen. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The earliest thing I can find and have noted mentioning a massacre, and naming victims including sheikh Omar, is this Facebook post from 7:45 PM Syria time on May 2. I haven't tried hard yet to find the earliest mention. I guess just the earliest mentions of a massacre at all, if we stumble across it, would be the no-later-than point. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That was, of course, the point of the reports timeline below. I just expanded and refined to say the earliest twitter messages in Arabic mentioning a massacre in Bayda or around Baniyas (appearing on the search for those tags) was at 5:16 PM local time on May 2. 5:16 PM @AlArab_Qatar: "Activists: Massacre now get near Beida in Banias using bladed weapons and slaughter knives." The first fighting reports came in at 8:39 AM, with mentions of clashes and the deadly ambush coming through the morning. At 2:13 PM the first clue: @baniasrevo1, apparently talking of shelling, "wounding three households directly and destruction of a large section and return them home for the Mahmoud and Al Shoghri." Both families are listed as suffering "field executions" in the massacre. There was the 5:16 flash, a mention at 6:20, at 7:01 PM ‏@fqad tweeted that "50 martyrs, mostly women and children, were slaughtered with knives." At 8:07PM ‏@LFofficialpage said "Revolutionary Council: regime forces executed 200 people in # Beida in the countryside # Banias" Etc.

The picture of imam Biassi dead only circulated widely on Saturday the 4th, but was online at least as early as the 3rd. At 8:25 AM on the 3rd, the rebel "Coordinating body of the Syrian revolution" were boasting of multiple images they had.
 * Sheikh Omar Biasi killed yesterday in the village of al-Bayda. Who have killed the Sheikh is the Shabiha system, and we have photos to prove this. This picture shows the person who killed him. This picture shows Sheikh Omar Biasi before killing. This picture shows the other, Syrian regime, story of the killing of Sheikh Omar Biasi.

There are no pictures attached or linked, so it's not clear what each "this" refers to. How did they get these pictures? Did they overpower the Shabiha unit responsible and confiscate their camera-phones? how could they do that with their 0-14 fighters? But second ambush or not, I suspect they did have post-capture photos and knew the killer(s). However, to my knowledge, only the one not mentioned - a picture of him dead - was ever publicized, sometime that day. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Dozens of Biassis Massacred
Reuters, May 28, hearing from Bayda massacre historian, omniscient narrator school of thought, pseudonym Ahmad:
 * There was Sheikh Omar Biyasi, 62, whose body Ahmad found alongside the Sheikh's slain wife and son, Hamzah, a medical student. Sheikh Biyasi had been the village imam for 30 years. He was a government loyalist who alienated local people with his political views before resigning two years ago. "Even though he always opposed the protests, they still killed him," said Ahmad.
 * The Biyasi family suffered some of the worst losses, with 36 documented deaths. Ahmad found bodies belonging to the family in one small room; a mother and her three daughters and young son, who was at the local school with Ahmad's children. "They were leaning on each other," Ahmad recalled.

Wow. It really must be just "anyone Sunni" now, huh? Only the pro-government Sunni family, of course. Jesus, right there, they admit this massacre was mainly the one first mentioned as being done by them against government loyalists. 50, maybe 100 people killed, maybe including the 7-40-ish killed Shabiha and 36 Biyasis and/or other combat deaths following! --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The Syrian Center for the Documentation of Violations has 22 entries with Biyyasi or Biyyasa attached among the 70 who died in al-Bayda on May 2. There are at least two others belong (Fattouh seems to be a subset, with 7 entries, only one lacking "Bayyasa", and there's Zakarya al-Shawish"Housein" married to Manar Bayyasi) for at least 24 relatives including Imam Omar Bayassi, given as Omar Aziz Bayyasi, age and station not given, with additional unique details "married and has children," "known as Omar Naser."--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

The biggest victims list I've examined, entries up to #165, features 28 instances of Biasi ( بياسي ). The exact number of victims listed I didn't decide yet - Some include wife or children past the single mention, like 156 - 160 "Abdel Fattah (Fattouh?) Biasi and his wife and three children." and then there's the apparent over-count; an Omar Aziz Biasi (#92), another Omar Aziz (145), an Omar Omar Biasi (16), and a Sheikh Omar Biasi (13), to the SCDV's single Omar Aziz Bayyasi, presumably the sheikh. Only Omar Omar seems to be clearly a different person, a son, but not listed or mentioned elsewhere. He's alongside Hamza Omar (see inset), Heba Omar, and Barah Omar (براءة عمر). Also Manar is named, with her husband, and probably children and grandchildren. But there's also a second apparent sister and her family that were killed, Sabah, age 70, married to an al-Shoghri, over a dozen of whom died (see below, other relations). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:49, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

And more: on sister Manar, possibly not a sister, age not given: the SCDV lists her as Manar Ezzadin Bayyasi, martyred with her husband Zakarya Shawish and her father. He's #152 on the Arab Worlds list, Izz al-Din Biasi ( عز الدين بياسي ) SCDV Ezzadin Bayyasi, "martyred with his daughter Manar." Again, age not given.--Caustic Logic (talk) 08:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Open Questions:
 * Can we track down this video where the sheikh accused the rebels of falsely reporting his death once before?  --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Can we time the photo with any precision? Order of operations here clearly matters. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * What if any significance is there to Sheikh Biassi being listed aka Nassiriya/Naser? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Fattouh Sub-Family
This sub-family lost 8-9 members as given, and was seemingly part of the Biassi family by marriage of a daughter of the imam. "Darker Net" reported from its breathless sources: "Family Massacre: Hamza Muhammad Fatouh (1.5 years old), his mother Safaa Ali Bayaseh, his father Muhammad Abdullah Fatouh, and his grandfather Abdullah Fatouh, and his siblings Aisha, Halima, Sara, Shahed, and Abdullah, were all slaughtered by Assad forces in Bayda, Banias." Nine victims named. Two members of this family appear on the top list - Youssef Fattouh and his unnamed brother. Several come through in the Syrian Center for Documentation of Violations database (all Bayda deaths, May 2) features eight:
 * Mohammad Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa - adult male
 * Aysha Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa (page has a photo, three girls posing) child,female, mother: Safaa
 * Sara Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa - girl, same photo, same mother
 * Halima Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa - girl, same photo, same mother
 * Hamza Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa - child, male, age 1. Mother: Safaa
 * Abdullah Yousef Fattouh - adult male
 * Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa - adult male, Married with 4 children
 * Safaa Ali Bayyasa - adult female, Married with 4 children

Arab Worlds listed these all in relation to little Hamza, a year and a half old they say. Safaa Ali Biasi and Abdullah Fattouh are mother and father of Hamza. Aisha, Sarah, and Halima are sisters of Hamza, and are joined by a fourth sister, Shehideh ( شهد ).There's also an added Ijd (gradfather) Hamza ( جد حمزة ) name not provided, but presumably an elder Fattouh. That's eight entries - Fattouh ( فتوح ) appears only six times for these. Above, we also had a Yousef Fattouh ( يوسف فتوح) and his unnamed brother. This list might include him differently, but not that I noticed yet (only half-done digesting it). Below, separately, a possible partial re-list of this same family: entries 156 - 160: Abdel Fattah Biasi and his wife and three children ( عبد الفتاح بياسي و زوجته و اولاده الثلاثة ), followed by #161 - "anonymous" boy, 8 years old (see "A domestic scene" below, with an extra boy, it seems, about that age - ??) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

See also "child victims" below for images of Hamza and his three sisters. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

July Fattouh Family Massacre
(will deserve its own page) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, probably not. Too many other pages and spaces in pages needing done. This section might do. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * (Daily) Mail Online, Syrian troops 'kill 13 members of the same family, some of whom were burned alive' By Helen Lawson, July 22
 * Thirteen members of the same family, including six children, have been killed by pro-government forces in Syria, a human rights group says.
 * Some of the Fatouh family were burned alive at their home in Bayda, north-west Syria, some reports say, while others suggest they were shot first before the house was set on fire. Three men were shot dead before four women and six children were gathered in one room and killed, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.
 * The family was fasting at the time of the attack at their home near the coastal city of Baniyas, the scene of a previous massacre where more than 140 died in May.
 * "The three men, unarmed, were shot dead outside their home. The militiamen then broke in, and killed the women and the children,' the Observatory's director Rami Abdel Rahman told AFP.
 * Mr Abdel Rahman said the family was killed by the National Defense Force and that his organisation had heard conflicting reports as to how the women and children died.

...
 * Mr Abdel Rahman said the slaughter was a revenge attack for the deaths of four Alawite members of the NDF. ... "On Saturday, four Alawite members of the National Defense Force were killed in fighting there,' he told AFP. 'The pro-regime militiamen took revenge for their deaths by killing this family.'
 * Once again, they cannot get their revenge past these intermarried loyalist/Baathist members of the surrounded Sunni community. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I decided to explain this to the SOHR in a comment on their July 21 Facebook post about this family massacre. Similar to the above but better, with a summary of our findings to that effect. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * AFP Report, July 21: Syria pro-regime militia kills 13 family members—NGO: On the women and children: “We have conflicting reports. Some say they were shot dead, others that they were burnt alive."

Or did it even happen? Remember that it was reported on July 21, happening that day or perhaps earlier. This July 24 Facebook post by B.N.N. says 25 terrorists were arrested in a series of raids running from July 20-22. "Note that on 20-7 the terrorist group trying desperately to stop and units of intrusion of the men's national defense are functioning normal in the vicinity of Lot # Beida ."There is no mention of a family massacre by either side. But there is a strangely similar death toll here - "13 militants dead" in total. Amongst those were some who were killed "coming from the orchards to support terrorists," and a further "8 gunmen who had been holed up in a building consisting of 3 layers and holed it and caught fire." There's your women and children burned alive? A subsequent post from B.N.N. July 27 shows a building that suffered a fire, unexplained but possibly related.

FWIW, SCDV database has 16 martyrs listed in Beida on July 21, including Fatouhs with names. A Laila Qadour was also killed, two unidentified, a few others. Osama Ali Fatouh and his wife and four kids, they heard, died so: "The regime forces execute and burning family with two of the army free (FSA) ///martyred with his wife and four children." Further details... feel free to dig in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Sam Dagher of the Wall Street Journal heard yet another version from local is al Bayda:
 * On July 20, members of a pro-regime paramilitary group, known as the National Defense Force, raided Bayda and killed two men linked to the rebels, said activists and a local official. The next day, militia members returned and attacked the home of a family known for its sympathies to the rebels, these people said. Fourteen people were killed, they said, most of them women and children.

This could explain how the full reports of rebel fighters plus a family killed came out together on the 21st. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Other Relations
Al-Shoghri: including Ibrahim al Shoghri the elderly disabled man charred in the streets, this clan also apparently came into the line of fire due to relation to the Imam. The big list from Arab Worlds says for entry 19 Sabah Biasi (Female name, "morning"  - صباح بياسي ). This follows Sheikh Omar Biasi, his wife, and four children - she's perhaps a fifth. All grown up, she had a son and even a grandson listed below her: #20 Mohammed al-Shoghri (son of Sabah) and then 21 Mohamed Mohamed al-Shoghri (son of Muhammad). For her offspring to have that name, apparently she married an al-Shoghri. The first list above in fact included Sabah/Sbah al-Shehri/alshghry ( صباح الشغري ). That could actually be two people - the Arab Worlds list has a separate entry #97 for Sabah Ahmed Al-Shoghri, age 12. But the SCDV specifies the one that seems a grandmother is Sabah al-Shaghri, age 70, married and has children, "martyred with her son and grandson." Perhaps for that reason (plus possible inflation) the name Al-Shoghri ( الشغري ) appears here 17 times (entries 9-12, 20-22, 25, 26, 41, 42, 93-98). Her son Mohammed has a SCDV entry worth linking to just because it's one of the few with a photo included. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Qaddour: In the first list above, entry 11, better translated Qaddour or Kadour ("pots"), a granfather apparently of a Mohammed (?). Same new list, entry 28, says Aisha Qaddour, wife of Mohammed Mustafa Ali Biasi ( عائشة قدور زوجة محمد مصطفى علي بياسي ). He's #27 ( محمد مصطفى علي بياسي ), and they're followed by perhaps four children. Two boys, specified as babies, a "daughter of Mustafa Ali Biasi," and a blank entry #31 before her. Qaddour ( قدور ) appears here for 17 entries (1-6, 28, 36, 83-85, 86-90 (Mustafa Hussein Udour/Qaddour and his family, unnamed), 144. This family too is married into the Biasis! --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Almost everyone on that first tiny sampler list can now be shown as a reported relation of loyalist trouble-maker Sheikh Omar Biasi, and I'm still digesting this giant list. Likely all of those, if not every civilian targeted, was related. I now suspect whatever set them off against the imam that morning answers the politics question down the line, or at least answers most of it. Too bad only their religion mattered to people like Navi Pillay. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Hamouda: For a smaller connection, entry #104 is Amina Hamouda (wife of Mustafa Biasi), who's #103 two more Biasis follow, a mother Obaid and an unnamed daughter). This relation perhaps brought Amina and two male relatives into the line of fire. Hamouda ( حمودة ) appears also for entries 116 Mohamed Abdel Aziz Hamouda and 117 Ammar Mohamed Hamouda. That may be all those specified with a Biasi ( بياسي ) relation, after scanning all 28 instances. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Yasin: That may be all for al-Bayda, but there were several families hit in both massacres, Baniyas as well. That includes by name only one Biassi, with a possible link to another family: Fahima Yasin Bayyasi, 20-year-old female killed on the oddball late date of May 6 by "shooting." The Yasin part is a common name, but only four people with it are are listed killed in Tartous May 2-May 6 (that is, in both massacres combined), and all on the same oddball day, May 6. According to the LCC's 173 victims list, the Yassin family ( عائلة ياسين ) lost four members (entries 24-27). By the list with three approximate name matches, Fahima is not included (this list also misspelled family name as Iyasi ( ياسي )), but does for some reason include Sidra Tahhouf (SCDV) ( سيدرا تحوف ), female, age 3. Arguably then, we have five members of this family, all the Yasins killed May 6, one suggesting some link back to the original targeted family, allowing the five-day reign of terror to being and end with victims named Biassi. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Later Deaths
The same SCDV database showing 24 Biyassis minimum killed May 2 shows at least two more dying in the following days. On May 4, Isma Bayyasi, adult male, age not given, died from "shooting," not field execution (rebels were pushed further out), "by regime forces sniper's shot," of course. Two non-Biyyasis died in Beida the same day, both due to shelling, it says -not so targeted-sounding. Then on May 6, somewhere in Banias (perhaps Beida), one Fahima Yasin Bayyasi, female, age 20, was killed by "Shooting." Sniper, I'd bet. The regime hated that family all of a sudden. That's 26 to Ahmad's 36. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The Child Victims of Al-Bayda
Note: errors stricken out, updates below. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC) There are at least six photos of identified child victims (when living and happy-ish) of the Al-Bayda Baniyas massacres, compiled with dozens of horrifying images of the dead (plus several misattributed and recycled photos), at this "syrianarmyfree.com" page. Of those six, one is a victim of the Baniyas massacre, and the other five died in Bayda and are all members of the Biassi/Bayyasa family. Anne Barnard - in her May 14 NYT article (page 2): "Residents posted smiling pictures of children they said had been killed: Moaz al-Biassi, 1 year old, and his sister Afnan, 3. Three sisters, Halima, Sara, and Aisha. Curly-haired Noor, and Fatima, too little to have much hair but already sporting earrings." Fatima in Baniyas, with the earrings, charred later from the waist down, covered here. Noor, apparently not shown, possibly Baniyas, either Noor Sohayb Khaddam or her daughter. I have seen the three sisters (see below) in the SCDV database - Aysha Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa, sisters Halima and Sara listed, along with mother Safaa Ali Bayyasa, father father Abdullah Fattouh Bayyasa, and brother Hamza. (all included here). So three members of the pro-government family. As for the other two shown, by deduction: little Moaz (5 months?), and Afnan, also of the gov't loyalist Biassi family. Also, four young kids are shown raising victory signs and smiling. Not sure who those are supposed to be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Augh, as I'm wrapping up, no the 3 year-old girl is " سيدا تحوف " (Seda Tahoof?) age 3, aka Sabah Ali Taha, vitim of Ras al-Nabi', age 3, alternate and cuter photo there. So I guess the boy too is questioned, but we have at least three. (all to be reorganized someday) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The 5-month old boy is, at least a Facebook page says, "Ibrahim Haithem Skaif, 5 months old from Baniyas. He was killed with his family in the massacre on 03/05/201." SCDV lists Ibrahim Haytham Ibrahim Skeif, his dad and sister, a twin one ("She is five months old"), no photo. Oddly, they are all listed among the 13 who died on May 6. Fahima Yasin Bayyasi is included, like all, dying in simply "Baniyas," unspecified. And surprise to learn there, Sidra Tahhouf has a separate listing there from the same age, similar name, similar-looking Sabha Taha. Little Sidra was killed on May 6, according to this. I had presumed that was a clerical error, though the photos weren't obvious matches. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

So, in short, most of the child victims photos are attributed to Baniyas, and only a few to al-Bayda. I'm not sure now if any of those are not from the Biassi families, but these are the five rebels and opposition have been tugging on our heartstrings with (and pulling our brains behind). Before that, I managed to find a combined image of Moaz and Afnan's photos on this Facebook post, added below. The simple description says "Moaz Abdulmoneim Bayaseh (L) and his sister Afnan (R), from al-Bayda, Baniyas. They were both killed in the massacre on 02/05/2013." That's five little kids of a LOYALIST Syrian family, most likely slaughtered by unaccountable rebels with their blank-check checkbook for false-flag forgery. Hatchets to the face make the regime look worse, so let it rip. And their media mouthpieces as usual use the slaughtered innocence against the government that would have liked to save these kids, but are getting f***ed with too much to keep up fully. I can guarantee heavier weapons will lead to more of these. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:33, 29 June 2013 (UTC) Note: The Syrian Center for Violations of Documentation list seems to be missing some Biassis and some children. Only three girls, the Fattouh-Biassa ones, are listed killed in Bayda, May 2. The five boys include their brother Hamza, Ahmad Othman (covered below), and three not yet examined. 8 people total listed as children, with at least Moaz and Afnan Biassi/Bayyasa missing. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Aleppo Refugees? Al-Debesh
Tartous, as one of the safest provinces in Syria, has become a destination for those fleeing the war in other parts of Syria. There are two names listed twice, under Aleppo but who died in Beida, and again as from Baniyas:Beida like the other 68. These two might be refugees from Aleppo, a father and son perhaps, who fled from, say, a rebel conquest of their neighborhood there. There might also be females who were spared or went "missing" as whoever attacked these people who perhaps had a mutual dislike with the rebels. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Zakarya a-Debesh, Beida
 * Mohammad Soubhi al-Debesh, Beida
 * Zakaria al-Debesh, Aleppo age 42, killed in Beida
 * Mohammad Subhi al-Dbesh, Aleppo Child, age 15, killed in Beida

The next day, two members of a family Dahbash, possibly the same, were killed in the Baniyas massacre, according to the same database. Again, they seem to be a father and son, but this time no Aleppo clues, but by name are linked to the Jalloul family, who lost many mebers. These are: Both have videos attached, but they're the same one attached to all Baniyas victims, a general Baniyas massacre video we've already seen I presume. Didn't sign in to see which one this is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Moustafa Mohammad Jalloul al-Dahbash, child, age 14, killed May 3, "Martyred with his father by regime forces"
 * MOhammad Jalloul al-Dahbash, adult male, age not given, married with children, killed May 4

Namoura
According to the biggest list, five members of this family ( نمورة ) were killed in al-Bayda on May 2, one of them a 3-year-old boy. The SCDV lists three members, no children: Mohammad Nammoura, Mohamma Namoura's wife, and Ibrahim Nammoura. Two months to the day earlier, another family son - Bilal Namoura from "Banyas : Byda Village" - was reportedly slain by regime forces while away - fighting with the FSA in soon-to-be-gassed Khan al-Assal, Aleppo. Perhaps unrelated, at least five members of a Namoura family living in Daraya, Damascus, were killed in the Daraya massacre in August 2012. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Alhris
The September Channel 4 video report "Anatomy of a Massacre" heard from an alleged witness about the first beheading we've heard of associated with this massacre. "At least one young boy, Luqman al-Hiris," the summary states, "was beheaded - in front of his mother." Old woman "Um Mohammed," a lucky survivor, doesn't say how she witnessed it, but the regime killers held him a certain way and decapitated him with a cleaver in a sawing motion. It was part of a mass execution, she said, implied in the edit, part of the "curbside victims." None of those are beheaded that we've seen. A teenage boy does have a hole in his neck/jaw, but that is most likely a bullet exit wound. But perhaps there really was such an event.

The family name just barely appears in the previous record. If al-Hiris is the same as Alhris, it appears on the big list of 165, Alhris ( الهرس ) (Google translates "Mashing"). With that name, two men -Mohammed Ali and Ali Mohammed, and no one else. There's no Luqman, no mother. The SCDV entries are lacking for any such name in Arabic or identifiable transliterations. (See Arabic attaempt here.)

Massacre Scene Analysis
This is where we look at visual and other evidence following the massacres, analyze fordetails, and when possible interweave with the identity evidence above. Some of the scene nicknames are not very good, picked early and arbitrarily. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

A Domestic Scene
Some images suggested a video I finally ran across of a purported scene from al-Bayda, May 2. بانياس مجزرة في أحد منازل قرية البيضا 2-5-2013 Banias - a massacre in a house in the village of al-Bayda What seems to be one woman and her young daughter lay dead, curled up, at the foot of an empty bed. To the right against a wall, another woman, it seems laid over/shielding two smaller children. Again, one of the few things we can tell about this crime scene is opposition cameras had free access at some point. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry for not catching up on this double massacre thing but at least I went over to Urs to check what's up there. A long kind of rambling post talking of re-arrangment of some pile members, and maybe more interesting (or at least clear enough for me) is this one which shows the video you linked above, but in addition another video which shows the same scene with the same plus other victims at night, with the victims still bleeding! --CE (talk) 11:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Great add. I thought it might be the one night scene of many more women and children, but this is new, and does seem to be apparently the same scene, at least from the lady in purple. But there's other people too, as noted. At least one... didn't compare closely yet. ... around 4 am the "Shabiha" ambush supposedly happened, the Biassie families killed in the early AM too. Early enough that this it, pre-sunrise? This could be them or, really, anywhere. The reported massacre was to be in al-Bayda and until Ras al-Nabi', all was to be pinned on that. So wherever it happened, it was pinned in al-Bayda. And again, we have long-running or frequent periods of rebel access to the crime scenes, coming and going at all time of different days, even as someone moves the bodies around. ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * All the nighttime victims are fully clothed, so the killing could not have happened very late. Also, as I said here, I only rained around around 11 pm. I believe all 4 nighttime videos are from the same source, possible the killers. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the link. I had not seen this video before. (Now on my playlist.) He is right, the victim is still bleeding, possibly alive. The whole page makes me sick. Must go outside. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:01, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Comparing these two videos (managed to save both), at least six bodies, all women or children, are present here. In the night-time video, 0:07, the narrator says "Khiryabet (village) al-Bayda") First, the three female victims at the foot of the empty bed; the girl/young woman in silver is a bizarre specimen. Still pouring blood down her nose, freshly dead, strange injury to the right palm, strange left finger pointing to it, strange posture, sitting far upright. It almost looks fake, but I doubt that. I'm not sure if she's an extra victim - dark skirt, light top, if slumped over, could be what's between the other girls in the daytime video. The one further has her face covered there, uncovered at night, eerily gazing up with eyes frozen open. The younger girl in purple hunched over, mysterious death in the day view, but the night video ... (0:14-0:21) - she has a massive stab wound to the left back, likely hitting her heart, possibly passing clear through, and much blood beneath, fresh like all of it. Her left arm, all but the hand, is either clad in or covered with something matte black and lumpy, or was severely charred prior to dying here. At 0:15, is that the end of forearm bones sticking out at the elbow, or something else? I'm not sure. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

The other three across the room: Heartbreaking. A woman in a purple floral dress and blue headscarf apparently died frozen like a spider, protectively splayed over what must be her children. It wasn't enough. Underneath, a young boy (aged 8-10?) is left with his upper body hanging out unprotected, horrible but unclear chest and head injuries, blood poured from his nose and possibly also a hole in the left side of his lower neck. Night video 0:30 - his shorts say Barcelona (see Ahmad Othman). To clarify, the night video was shot first - he wet his shorts and they've dried more by the day shot (night 0:37, 0:10 day). A tiny visible foot and hand in the night shot say there's at least one baby under there, better protected but also dead. In the day view, the kids have been re-arranged for no clear reason; the older boy has had his whole upper body tucked back between the woman's legs in daylight (note also her hand has moved off his knee), and it's now the baby's head alone that's visible, laid atop the boy, it seems, mostly hidden between her legs (visibly, beheading could also be possible, but that seems a bit much considering how little the scene has changed). It could be the original arrangement was set-up too, with victims still oozing blood, to add emotional drama. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And visibly, that could be the boy's head, if the injuries and blood on it can fail to come through, tucked hard into his blood-soaked chest, right arm pulled back between the woman's legs, left arm as we can see ending with the hand at his side. The baby would then just be moved. I think that's what we're seeing, as the new graphic says. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Reuters: "Ahmad found bodies belonging to the (Biassi - here Biyasi) family in one small room; a mother and her three daughters and young son, who was at the local school with Ahmad's children. "They were leaning on each other," Ahmad recalled." Aside from missing the baby, this sounds like the same scene. This SCDV list for the Fattough-Biassa family (with the three girls shown above) is a near fit. A mom, three daughters, a son (Hamza - age one), and two similarly named adult males (if killed elsewhere). But again, one would be missing, this time the older, more visible son. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Another Domestic Scene
As brought up on another page, another video of greater proportions claims to be from al-Bayda as well: Ugliest massacres between Naseer in Beida c village 2 + + +18. Copied conversation from there, further analysis in time:

It may be that this family has the three dead girls shown in photos. One of the girls in the bed has a long cut on her arm. No blood, could have been inflicted post mortem. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Them all dying just sitting there, so many, makes a bit more sense with inescapable gas. And there are some very bloody injuries, but many others as you point out not bleeding. Not sure how long a body has to be dead to not bleed from a cut. A head-shot, of course, will be bloody no matter what. I see small hole in the neck (0:37), larger hole in the jaw (0:45) in the jaw and under the chin, deep shoulder gash and two elbow injuries (0:55), all fairly visible and non-bloody. There's a pregnant woman, not at the moment cut open. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The "pregnant woman, not at the moment cut open" was mentioned in this connection; rebel body-dragger and witness, "Omar" from Ras al-Nabi', cited among the horrific sights he saw in Bayda, "a fetus ripped from a woman’s belly," as the New York Times reported. Bad stuff. Not at all clearly the same victim(s) - perhaps two pregnant women were among the 70 or so killed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I finally analyzed this scene to where I can say how many bodies there are: exactly 19 visible, possibly more, but they say 20, so I will too. There is a big black dome the first woman leans on. That's not a huge woman slumped over, is it? This including 9 children they say. I too count 9 smaller people without headscarves, 10 larger ones with. A lot of women, some surely being older daughter of some of the matriarchs we see here. I have no solid guess on names yet, but the rebel narration says “Assad forces have killed 20 people from one family.” That all but require they be part of the Biassi clan and/or those married in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The left-right pan has mostly women (seven, I count) at first. The last (0:30), purple dress, on chair, head back, hole in throat, next to the first child seen (0:35), described by the rebel narrator as “a mother and her child.” that is a small boy, perhaps about two years old, red shirt, hanging over the chair face down, blood dripping on the floor beneath (his or his mom's?) This seems to be the only boy shown (and there are no outright babies included - he's as young as they get). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

There are two women and three girls, it seems, at the other end of the room pan (1:07-1:22). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

In between is perhaps the most interesting span, along a couch: five girls and no sons attributed to one woman, the eighth one shown. A toddler aged about 2 (??not sure how good I am with ages) in yellow and white, 0:43, seated closest to mother's face. The older girls are all behind her. First perhaps 9 years old, in red, small hole in left jaw edge, and another under the chin. Two girls in mostly purple dresses and aged around 6-7 lay, face-to-face and somewhat embracing. (0:53)The one to the right has injuries to the left arm - at the elbow a (bullet?) hole, at the shoulder a horrible deep slice. Beyond them an older girl, perhaps 10-12, white/yellow dress/gown, curled up head unseen, left arm injury. As for their mother, we see her face (0:43) - wearing glasses, good sized hole in left jaw edge. At 1:00 we see that she's the fully pregnant woman too: “a pregnant mother, and her child and five children,” the narrator says. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Opposition propaganda site Syrian Revolution Digest passed on claims of the al-Bayda massacre supported by video, one of which was "a local lawyer and her 5 children were killed," followed by a link to this video. So a pregnant female liberated lawyer, and her five feminist, devil tinged offsrpring, were all snuffed out. Couldn't help she was also apprently related to the pro-government Imam. And as we started out noting, one Salafist rebel says a pregnant woman was opened and the baby "torn out." (the first boy? They were really curious) The sense that these people weren't killed right here persists. The whole scene feels posed/arranged like an art piece to increase the drama. That kind of callous management does not bode well considering how well field executing a fetus would play to the same end - it was not documented anywhere on Youtube or Facebook that I'm aware of, but perhaps circulating in narrower circles, among certain Wahabbi/Ikhwan types as proof their contributions are not in vain. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

In one of the image lists I was slow to peruse, dear god,a field executed fetus, claimed, wrapped, and documented by rebels. No natural birth this, too undeveloped - somewhere allegedly in the Baniyas massacres mix, it was torn from a womb by someone - by Shabiha, Islamo-nihilist rebels, whoever was in charge of those bodies, quite likely this same pregnant one filmed by rebels in the pre-dawn dark. Sickening stuff. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The size of the fetus seems to me consistent with the far-along pregnancy of the seventh woman. Also it occurred to me this is the 20th person killed, I guess, if that's what they meant. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Putting this back alongside the account of "Omar, of nearby Ras al-Nabeh" to the New York Times is rather strange. Either this woman in the video must be a second pregnant woman from the one cut open, or Omar's not telling it like it happened, or possibly some other options. He says he "helped Bayda residents pick up bodies, placing 46 in two houses and the rest in a mosque, then had run away." Chances are, this house/mosque wherever with 20 women and children is one of the three scenes he means to describe. That would mean this pregnant woman and her five daughters were first killed in the street and then dragged by Omar (and/or others, with him counting) to these positions. Therefore, the cut open pregnant woman he remembered, or rather "a fetus ripped from a woman’s belly" with the woman not mentioned or photographed to my knowledge in that state, must be another one he found that way, not this one, unless ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The Curbside victims
I'm getting a very slow start here, but there are obviously also the shoeless victims executed on the curbside in that rather dramatic sloping spot. What would be helpful here is getting a time stamp on the images available. That requires site identification and some shadow reading. Also, a best visual count on the number, dress and character of, and other clues to the victims. For which an image list is most useful. I plan to this weekend or so. And/or, just compile reports.

My cursory look suggests there is one video and one photo of this scene. Between them, I count twelve victims of mostly head injuries, shoes removed for Islamist execution, all fighting age males, teenaged to middle-aged. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A later-published video Petri pointed out adds detail to the victims; there seem to be 13 men here, not 12, the one at the top almost could be Sheikh Omar, and the hefty guy in black may have his eyes gouged out (0:09). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The first video offers a wider view, stitched into the image below. We can't even be sure if the left side is vacant or occupied by a building. Depending on time of day, the visible wall with these unique features could face any combination of north, east, or west. Note the shadow of the building is fairly long - suggests something before or after mid-day, depending on the unknown height of the buildings, etc. . Coming next, a location. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Open questions:
 * Who were these guys? Who says what, and how much sense does it make, etc.? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

One of the younger victims, apparently a teenage boy of about 16, in the second video at 0:14-0:16. Note his black shirt with circular design, splayed legs in low-riding jeans, turned face with nasty wound on the right jaw. As established, this pile was seen at both noon and sunset on May 3. What seems the earliest view of this victim, laid out alone, is the second photo in a mini-slidehow by sectarian propaganda activists, only on June 2. "Children slaughtered at the hands of the Alawite bands" in the massacre of "the village of al-Bayda." Photo taken in the dark, presumably pre-dawn, dead on the ground next to a football (soccer ball), perhaps staged to appear he was killed while playing. It seems he had his arms and legs tortured somehwere, and was then killed here - much blood flows. From the darkness on his right jaw/neck below the ear, as we can see in daylight. The face, shirt, and that wound make him perhaps recognizable in a high-res, close-up photo of a boy with that area on the left side torn fully open somehow (see here, if prepared for a horrible sight). However, that would mean both sides of his upper neck behind the jaw were destroyed like this - two bullet exit wounds? Rough treatment. He's laid out about the same way in the video, as if the other victims were piled up around him. But this is a second placement, I think. Otherwise, his blood in the first photo would run the other way on the pavement, and the ball definitely would have rolled away on this infamous slope. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Football Boy

Location?
Location: narrowing down. Another report, al-Ikhbariya I think (right), has a long shot of these men from the other direction (I noticed it skimming This video, at time stamp 4:10). Again for reference, here's the Google Maps link for al-Bayda. It's not the mosque. I think we're looking north or northeast in the early-mid afternoon. Not finding a match yet, though. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC) Then the fuller Ikhbariya video at better resolution was found, yielding the much more useful composite view above. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Locating this spot on the map would be useful, and I've tried with many maybes, but nothing that seemed to match all features. I suppose it's best to spell these out and ask for second opinions, etc. All the later-published video adds to the above images is to tell us the uphill end of the building has grass, not a driveway, next to it. As for the above images, Al-Ikhbariya's view and the rebel video panorama, looking the opposite direction, the same pole at the downhill corner can be seen in both. The space after that appears open in both views, with the panorama suggesting a building a ways off. Looking uphill, the road can be seen bending further up, towards the left/behind the building. Near the pole is a tall tree, and we have a second face with some detail visible, this side with arched balconies. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm making a graphic of the scene at different rotations, but handily, we have two different shadows to work with. Al-Ikhbariya's view shows a shaded side but no real building shadow, saying the sunlight is coming on about their line of sight. The panorama has the whole road and visible side in shadow, meaning a lower sun. That could mean later afternoon, but I'm suspecting early morning. That would make this road run roughly east-west. Ikbariya's sun would then be late afternoon, near sunset. It seems higher up than that, however. I tried solar noon, makes the other view no existing time, sun from almost due north. Graphic when I work out the details and think a bit more. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

(deleted content was here, all resolved, check history if you're that curious) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

The new Ikhbariyah video and composite view I just added from it help clarify the scene greatly. Other scenes in their video suggest this is an early video, before solar noon (sun slightly east) but near it, as the straight-down tree shadow suggested. That means they're looking north or perhaps a tad northeast, not east or west. One spot I passed over before now pops out as likely. See here on Google maps - just north of the burning van at the city square, just south of the mosque. For this to fit, the building apparently must have been built onto, the west side expanded a bit to run right up to the street instead of leaving a green patch. Otherwise it's a total match, shows signs of fire inside, and might be a good place for the imam of the mosque to live. So this is far from 100%, but the best match I can see so far. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Before I even posted, it's 100%. I checked Google Earth. The current imagery on GM is from April 5, 2010. There's a June 18, 2010 one, same space on the west, less green. The space starts about at the tall tree. Then, October 5, 2011 (latest shown) it's different -an addition starting at the tree fills in the space, leaving nothing but a narrow sidewalk between the house and the street. That's the sidewalk, been there less than three years. We have enough now to start a map of the core area. Cool. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This would make the activist video from the scene near sunset, light from the NNW WNW, covering the street and a stretch to the south. The bodies apparently sat there for a long time, unguarded or semi-guarded, before whatever local activists, not rebel fighters apparently, snuck up and made that video. The photo is apparently from a similar time, showing no sunlight info, it seems to be fully in the building's lengthening shadow. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The degree isn't clear, but the sun is shining from at least a bit north of west, so obviously filmed at least some minutes after the sun reached 270 degrees (due west), at just about 6:00 PM, but well prior to sunset at 8:23 (the shadow isn't that long). 7 PM +/- 30 minutes might be a good call. As explained below, the one video was being shared by mid-day of May 3, meaning it must have been filmed on May 2. So we can say that much is verified by that time. The photo that was taken seems to be from the same time (whole scene in shadow) and I think so was the other video. Ikhbariya's video of this scene, with the bodies still there, was filmed around 1PM, most likely on May 3, but they have footage from both days in the report. So they apparently didn't get scooped up by anyone very quickly. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The road runs a bit west of north, making the benchmark more like 260 degrees, which makes the bottom end close to 5:00. So let's say 6:15 +/- 45 minutes, or 5:30 - 7:00.--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Smashed-Head Victims
These were quite visible proof of heinous brutality - several bound men executed, apparently, by having their heads smashed in with bricks and such. This too needs an entry. Nothing for it yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Way behind here. One quick thought: It would be easier to smash peoples' heads this widely in one spot if they were already dead. Post-mortem mutilation to make the crimes look even worse are always possible. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

It seems there is no rebel footage of this scene, and no video at all. Member Petri Krohn's expansive Youtube playlist doesn't seem to have any such raw video, only videos including some of the available photos. These seem to be taken by SAA troops or pro-government activists. A good number of these are included in this list of photos compiled at Facebook, for both massacres. Most (like this one) and othersnear the top, and two others further down, bear the Tartous Today stamp, a sailing ship. (this useful view doesn't). This does not include this bloody scene or similar on pavement -those are either among the curbside victims, or other. The smashed-heads were on dusty dirt, scrub and debris around, surely by a road. Almost no scenery clues, apparently photographed in later afternoon, mid-length shadows, several hours after their smashing here; they're a little bit dried. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Most views are too close up to allow an easy correlation and count. At least 12 dead bare minimum, probably 15-20 or more total. Some older teenagers, otherwise adult, most young - "fighting age" describes them, but the clothes seem totally civilian. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Finally, video! This video (from which channel?) includes a brief cut of this scene or one extremely like it. (1:13-1:22). By the long pan, I can say there are at least 17 men here. There's still no details to place it, aside from the minimum size of this empty lot. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Othman Family?
Video: 1شام بانياس البيضا مجزرة بحق المدنيين العزل 3 5 2013 تحذير الفيديو قاسي جداً جـ (Cham Banias Beida massacre against unarmed civilians, 3 5 2013 Warning very tough video C1) (note: I was unable to save a copy of this one) This shows four grown men and an older teenage boy, apparently executed, mostly wrapped in blankets (brought here from other rooms/elsewhere). They're all in civilian clothes, interior shot (in a home?), apparently in the dark hours. The first man shown died from a head shot, wearing a black headscarf with Arabic writing (?) that makes him look kind of like a rebel (the others don't). Another man was shot in the lower throat (0:39). An older, shirtless, man had the back of his head blown apart (0:29). --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

As for the boy (0:15), he's an interesting case. The massive pool of blood behind his head suggests he was killed on this floor, by a gunshot to the head. (inset, top) But he's been seen elsewhere in an activist photo, laid next to a wall on gravel outside, in broad daylight. His blood is smeared on the wall as if he slumped over dead - or was carelessly dropped/carefully tossed - right there (inset, bottom). That there's no blood behind his head here suggests the latter. Rebels are moving bodies. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The Revolting Syrian, Why Assad Did It, shows this picture wrongly captioned "A young boy executed in the street." --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This handy infographic relates that much clearer image with details on the victim, given as Ahmad Othman, "a child who loved FC Barcelona and soccer was his passion. in almost all of his pictures," including this one, "he appeared wearing the club’s t-shirt." This Barcelona team thing is of course some kind of Qatar-rebel calling card (sorry, vague on that myself); his laying there dead in that shirt supports the impression that the killers were out to punish rebel-minded Sunnis, then leave the evidence behind for those same to photograph, while trying to deny it and blame "terrorists." Of the massacre, this re-telling says "more than 400 civilians were killed" in "one of the worst crimes in current century" and "It is widely believed that Assad’s death squads performed this genocide to ethnically cleanse the area of the west coast of any opposition movement." --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * On the stricken part: The Qatar/Barcelona link is sometimes spun that way, and might suggest rebel sympathies, but I hear the team is also popular in the Arab world at large, among government loyalists in Syria as well as opponents. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

See also: Ahmad Mohammad Othman SCDV entry: age 15, same image. All else is standard (civilian, field executed, May 2, same notes, same three general videos used for all victims). As noted elsewhere, Othman is one of the several families targeted in Bayda and again in Baniyas. Per the SCDV's list, young Ahmad was killed with three adult males of the Othman family, while a fourth was listed as killed the two days later in Ras al-Nabi'. This comes close to explaining the video scene of Ahmad plus four men, and setting the location as the Othman home. That the one (extra?) man looks a bit like a rebel could mean he was shot down in self-defense, and that would make "unarmed civilians" yet another error in that video's title. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: I checked the other Othmans, and they give no details. Age 0 means no data. No pictures or notes to establish (even alleged) relationships here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The spot Ahmad was plopped down and photographed was also filmed during Sam Dagher's visit, visibly the same blood smears at ... 60% through as he says "...payback for allowing rebels to operate here." The surroundings aren't clear - a raised building/covered area, a field beyond, perhaps a view across the valley in the other direction. For what it's worth.

Three Charred Men
"Ahmad" (alleged survivor) told an unnamed correspondent with Reuters, right in al-Bayda, that "before dark set in," he "stumbled upon another chilling sight" in the long string he described, all matching nicely with publicized videos he almost seems to just be describing. "Three charred bodies lay one on top of the other. "Smoke was still rising from one of them," he said. How on earth can you know details like that unless you had just barely survived the massacre, were there for some other reason, or saw some photos online? Included in this horrible collection of images at Free Syrian Army.com (If there's a Join us" link, DON'T click it!) is a photo of three partly charred bodies, all it seems still smoldering energetically (there are two other included photos of this trio, cited below). It seems they had stopped burning just minutes before this opposition photo, and in fact like they hadn't started burning too long before that. The fuel used might have come in small containers with yellow caps. I say small because two caps can be seen in this one small area. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC) The body on the right seems least burnt/most clothed, it seems. Laid face-down, this other shot, apparently at night, suggests his face was previously ... messed up, maybe burned. The body on top has a rather horrifying face visible in an alternate view (the spam filter here prevented a link direct, but it's the third one down). His head is bald and his face looks unusual, possibly deformed in some way, as well as aged, problems that predated his brutal slaying. Reuters added the three "were identified the next day, when the Red Crescent came in with a government official. One of the charred victims was Ibrahim al Shoghri, 69, who was mentally disabled." This is perhaps not unlike the second teenage boy murdered in June by Islamists in Aleppo for religious crimes. This one, they did "because of the deformation in one of his eyes, claiming that God inspired them to do so," taking him for the one-eyed "antichrist" (the Dajjaal). (And by the blur, they killed him badly, mutilating his face) But here, of course, it was Shabiha-types killing those apparently polluted with demons and interfering with God's blessings on the Sunnah. Both views of this victims clarify he suffered at least three nasty slices by a blade to his upper head. Crisscrossing, they came perhaps one before he fell, and two after. His right eye also seems to have been gouged out. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * How did I miss this? A video of that scene (sorry if link is redundant). Pretty graphic, decent resolution, night-time, before or after the day shot, not sure. The lover victims is more visible, also apparently a gaunt older bald-headed man, naked at least from the waist up. Here the bodies look more severely burned, but maybe that's my imagination. Odd this is, they're smoking intensely, once again, just put out. At two points, hours apart, they just getting done burning. Both times, rebels there to film it. That, my friends, is a huge red flag. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

April 14, 2011 roundup
Looking for something else, I came across this: activist videos of a April 14, 2011 raid on al Bayda. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hezbollah leader: Most Syrians believe in al-Assad – CNN's Arwa Damon on video
 * Protester who exposed lies at the heart of Syria's regime
 * I remember seeing video from that, same square we're studying, dozens of men bound and laid face-down. Soldier-types sometimes stood on them and jumped up and down. It was on a list of videos I was slapped with of gov't brutality, and the only one I felt was genuine and not fake. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * CNN shows some activist video (in thumbnail size) from April 16th, used to establish the that the roundup scene was genuine and happened in al Bayda. They do this by giving the viewer a tour of the central square. We have very little footage from the scene and many things still need to be placed on the map, including the cafeteria with the 30 burnt bodies. We should find this video for reference. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Apart for searching videos for the name linked above, here is something to start with: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Found it: here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Ahmad Biassi
One possible arrestee and prominent early opposition supporter is Ahmad Biassi, relation to Sheikh Omar uncertain.
 * Ahmad البياسي 1
 * Ahmad Biasi one egg detainees (More original)
 * Ugarit Orient || the hero martyr Ahmed البياسي -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Relation to our pro-government imam, reported former rebellion supporter? Possibly. Same as this Ahmad Bayasi of Banyas, "non-civilian," rank: "SFA" (sic) Died by shooting, 2012-09-18, in Aleppo: Amirya. Maybe he should have accepted that warning from April 2011? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:04, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite possibly not. Neither part of his name is uncommon in Baniyas, and there is at least one Ahmed Biasi ( احمد بياسي ) who was martyred prior to late March 2013, visibly different, as seen in this tribute video, more FSA material than that kid. That would mean at least two people of that name in Baniyas, which sounds reasonable. There might be 20 of them. One died in the al-Bayda massacre: 99 - Ahmed Mohamed Biasi ( احمد محمد بياسي ). But I suspect we would have heard if he were finally killed, and this person might have a son, 100 - Mohamed Ahmed Biasi. Which our subject would, for that matter. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Months after his death, about a week after the 2-year mark of his incident in the square (if all the same guy), and a week before the Biassi family at large would be targeted, one informed Facebook account on April 22 posted, for no stated reason, this reminder: Shaheed Ahmed Biasi Banias Type the name of a martyr. An Ehab Byassi with a FB account responded, mentioning a martyr in Damascus (?). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * From the same site: This post reporting the arrests in the al-Bayda square, where Ahmed Biassi was humiliated, as being in square Biassi. Not just a fluke: in this post, "Arrest all youths of house Biassi in the Square Biassi."

The original version of this page prominently included an erred report from Facebook, that Sheikh Omar was once a rebellion supporter ("a big revhead") until the rebels claimed he had been killed by security forces - which he hadn't. By this, he denied his death on Syrian state TV and turned against the liars. Intriguing, but clearly a mix-up. it was actually - it was this Ahmad Biassi who was reported dead, tortured to death in a government prison. I only located one source so far, from May 20, mentioning (Gtrans): "News that Ahmad Biasi died under torture in the State Security Kafr Sousse." Cited, Cham ( شام ) and Ugarit, "quoting BBC." Others say al-Arabiya and/or Al-Jazeera also reported the story. I'll take their word and move on. May 21 at the latest, he was on Syrian TV (SANA I think) denying the claim. There are a number of postings of this video and reports built around it. Most are dated May 22 and easy to find. One is posted May 21, with a later copy uploaded April 26, 2013, about a week before the massacre of his kin in al-Bayda: "Bayyasi did not die." An article, Dead "Ahmed Biash" speak on Syrian TV:
 * Syrian television broadcast on Saturday night to meet with "Ahmed Biash" refuted what it aired and claimed some satellite channels inflammatory that he had died after being arrested by Syrian security forces. And said, "Biash": "I was surprised by what I saw on TV where Al-Arabiya aired on شريطها news story that, the death of the young man Ahmed Biash who is I, under torture in one of the jails or prisons." And stressed, "Biash" he practiced his natural life and that one did not arrest him. The Al Jazeera aired a report which sang, and organized a poem on how to kill him by breaking the neck under Shoes intelligence in the Investigation Branch 285. Al Jazeera said that kill Biash, was under the direct supervision of the senior leaders of the Syrian intelligence, knowing that "Biash" originally was not arrested.

What his political stance afterwards is unclear. He might be at least a little disturbed to hear such a thing said by anyone. I'd have a hard time not getting the creeps from rebels after such a thing. It's possible he was among those killed on May 2, though nothing specific but the same basic name appearing - again - (Ahmed Mohammed Biassi) when there must be a dozen Ahmed/Ahmad Biassis in the area. If the young man's middle name is Mohammed, it's strengthened. I forgot to check for that while I was skimming. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:52, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Like, No Rebels
Here I'd like to collect statements of a lack of rebel fighter/terrorists in these areas capable of either carrying out massacres or of inviting any kind of fight. They will be made to look silly. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Ruth Sherlock et al., The Telegraph reported: "The attack was the first of its kind in this area. Local activists told the Daily Telegraph that though the town had declared itself "liberated", its "rebel battalions" had consisted of only 14 men." While later sources would acknowledge the clash with "Shabiha" rebels won that morning, killing 7 and capturing 30 or so, this report doesn't mention it at all. Instead, they heard, "the violence was revenge for rebel attacks (from other twons?) on government troops in a neighbouring area four days previously that had resulted in the death of several soldiers." Also, Imam Baissi is not mentioned in any way.


 * Noor Barotchi: “To give a little background on Banyas, where widespread massacres started a few days ago: it’s a coastal city in Western Syria that has a Sunni population and that is surrounded by Alawite villages. There were no rebel fighters in this region. Civilians are being ethnically cleansed for the sole crime of their religion."


 * New York Times heard about the supposed rebel fighters the government says it battled: "The activist in Baniyas, Abu Obada, said security forces had told people to gather in the square, and some Bayda villagers, fearing a massacre, attacked them with weapons abandoned by defectors. Other residents disputed that or were unsure because they had been hiding." Just reg'lar people, picking up weapons tossed aside by the defectors, who had been there, who the military came to detain when someone ambushed and killed and captured them, who then fled and left their weapons, as ordinary people tried to fight but were massacred. Got it.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Side-note: more on the defectors from NYT: "residents said they often helped defecting soldiers escape, a pattern they believe set off the violence. Activists said that on May 2, around 4 a.m., security forces came to detain defectors, and were ambushed" by ... "Bayda villagers," with "weapons abandoned by defectors?" --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The Revolting Syrian, May 6:
 * Assad’s forces announced on May 2 that they were going to enter the neighborhoods, which they already control and which have no FSA whatsoever, to ‘cleanse’ the area from ‘infiltrators’ and ‘armed gangs’.


 * Syrian Youth Org via Arab Worlds blog, May 6, per H.A.N:
 * (The 10 AM attack) killed three members of the Free Army and the escape of the other two. (For five total?)


 * "Abdullah" on Twitter (May 2, 8:59 PM?): "There haven’t been any protests in #Baniyas in 2 years…no FSA…nothing…what’s happening there now is out of pure sectarian hate. #Syria" ''

Early Clashes
This probably deserves a section to sort out the details. I think it should go here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Seized Arms?

 * A unit of the armed forces seized two weapons' warehouses in a raid against terrorists' dens in al-Bayda village in Banias, Tartous. An official source told SANA that the seized weapons included machineguns, automatic rifles and RPG charges, a pump-action and up-to-date communication devices and ammos. The source added that units of the army killed numbers of terrorists in al-Marqab and al-Bayda villages and Ras El-Nabe' neighborhood in Banias city.

Where are the Shabiha?
Opposition reports seem to acknowledge there was an engagement in which they killed some pro-government militiamen earlier on May 2. Don't they? Do they show the bodies? Does the government side? Are they the 20-ish that were somehow charred after the army apparently had access in the early afternoon? Is this batch of 20-30 dead included in the rebel total? Properly assigned or re-branded as local Sunni civilians? These I suggest we consider and paste quotes we see here, as they come up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Numbers (I was vague): The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported "earlier clashes today between rebels and regime forces, leading to the death of 6 regime forces and the injury of no less than 20 others, no reports yet on the number of rebels killed.'' German press agency DPA heard "Activists said troops attacked al-Bayda after a bus carrying pro-regime militants, known as Shabiha, was attacked, killing at least seven and wounding more than 30." Opposition news thing Saned N.N. (translated) heard Shabiha entered and engaged rebels, who "killed 30 Shabiha." Open questions: Did the injured ones escape, or were they captured? And did they survive their capture? Are they counted among the reported 50-100+ killed?--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Syriatruth.org reported that "gunmen" in al-Bayda "ambushed" someone, but also "searched the village and besieged and took 40 of them hostage," or "kidnapped 40 soldiers." The highest numbers, from rebels, say about 40 total - 7 killed at the starts, 30+ ... not dead. The taking of these "prompted the army to assign imam" (see above) "to negotiate with the gunmen for the release of the hostages, but they refused to do so," killed the Imam and his family and sister's family, some say, and probably the 40 or so soldiers. And that right there is over 50 dead, in a "massacre" that would also involve a number of killed rebel fighters, and perhaps nine additional soldiers, in a supposed massacre of 50-100+ --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Here is a video I have not seen before: Regime forces executed more than 150 people in Beida by Orient News, uploaded to YouTube on May 2nd, most likely at 21:50 UTC. It show "shabiha" arriving in al Baida in a white bus and two white minibuses. At the end of the video there is a scene of revolutionaries being rounded up at the central square. This footage may however be from 2011, as stated by this video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS9wMiuUnSE Massacre to Banias again ... History repeated!?] -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:35, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Arrests, Verified and Not
One aspect of the al-Bayda events that we've glossed over so far is the arrest of numerous men there after security forces "restored order." It would be helpful to cover this as well and consider it in relation to the rest. Activist/witnesses allege that men and boys were taken out of their homes and executed on the street. Men are seen in photos marched into vehicles by security forces, shirts pulled over their heads. Some purported massacre victims and wound up with shirts that way. Others wound up worse. So were the men we saw taken away, or taken away earlier, later brutally executed? Or did a terrorist massacre precede these arrests on suspicion of involvement? Has anyone made a victim-to-victim match to illustrate the first option? --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Syrian Street (sy-street.net - Arabic language) ran a report on May 2 featuring one photo of detained men, at least 20, being marched, hands behind their heads, as an armed soldier watches. "Dozens of militants" were killed in the operation, the report says, "as dozens of them surrendered the Army," who also seized "large quantities of weapons." The report also shared the infamous photo of executed men in the square (see below)

One page of especially horrific images - Fatakat.com forum, May 2, has an emphasis on children, including the unborn, in images not visible elsewhere (and not for certain from the Baida massacre). It's also a place where the arrest pictures are to be found. These are labeled صورة قبل المجزرة البشعه - Image before massacre. Provably false. As the timeline clues below show, the massacres happened before the sun was up. Both images are from mid-day. The second has a better chance of being placed on the map. I may try later.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * the one SyStreet had, same stamp
 * [https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/197758_497881510265226_1431111437_n.png video still, men with shirts over heads, marched out of some building.
 * Monatge image, soldiers involved in the arrests following the massacres. Label translated: "A picture of some of the Shabiha who ارتكبو massacre God curse them." ارتكبو did not parse, but I suspect it doesn't mean "responded adroitly to." --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic] (talk) 09:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Soldier celebration photo: I suspect this at least is misplaced. It must be May 2 or earlier, but might be from Baniyas city or elsewhere. It looks too flat, open, and palm-fringed to be this packed little hilltop town al-Bayda. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

The Burned People/Scene Analysis
There is a photo from activist sources of around 20 bodies partly burnt is an unlit room. This was posted by Yallasouriya, for one, as "Other picture of AL Bayda's massacre," but only on May 4. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights on May 5 published a video of the same bodies, in the same room, all un-burnt and nicely lined-up, also in opposition activist possession. This was, as usual, from the camera phone of one of the soldiers involved, in the raid on Thursday (the 2nd). He wasn't killed, apparently; the video was "leaked" to the activists. The room looks somewhat clinical. The bodies are apparently all adult males. "Footage has been leaked from the camera of a regular soldier who participated in the storming of al-Beyda village on Thursday. The footage shows the bodies of more than 20 people killed in the village, information indicates they were summarily executed." Some are possibly rebel fighters, some apparently not. My guess is not. The soldiers seen in this military zone look semi-convincing, mostly in fatigues, like soldiers or defectors minus jihadists. Some motorcycles, some head-scarves, but otherwise .... They're torching another place already. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have seen these, plus a video of the burnt bodies. All in the same place. Rebel sources claim the "unburnt" video was first published in pro-government site. It should by possible to find the location based on the video.
 * Here is one scenario: The soldiers are SAA. The dead men are executed "shabiha". One body has been dragged out, possibly by SAA. Rebels later counterattack and torch the bodies to destroy evidence. There is some precedence to this. The SAA had control of the main square on al Baida. The white wan was later torched, possibly with bodies in it. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. Other than the last part, with ease. I'm not sure how Shabiha sent to raid a weapons cache are supposed to dress these days, and these guys look pretty civilian. And maybe they were .... sorry, behind. But the number is pretty good to explain the 30 "Shabiha" in the bus, and the second burning van right across the way explains the "bus." Except, it's not right across the way, necessarily. The video cuts this into three distinct scenes. The first (the alley with the splayed-legs corpse) could be placed, not done yet. The place with the bodies, I fear cannot be easily placed. If we had a time and clear sun direction to narrow it down, possible. And the final sequence is in that same central square, starting just about in front of the building (city hall?) those bodies were seen at, looking north, turning right to look east down the square. The exact building with the burning van doesn't look right from space at any time, but must be the one right on the corner there. Everything else fits. That makes it early afternoon, around 2 pm as well, shadows short, with SAA in control. So, yeah... should be a legit video.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Placed the first scene. Pause at 0:18. We're on the central square, looking north up the north street. The burning van to the right is the same one just off the square, in that apparent dipped-down garage-place. To confirm, you'd see the mosque looking up that street. Faintly behind the wall in the center of frame, its minaret. Current Google Maps images (Apr 2010) show the right face of the building across from the alley with the burning car (0:14-18). Three big "windows," two little ones below, visible ramp alongside other half. All close to each other, I'm guessing the (nail salon?) the dead guys are piled at is also nearby. Note further smoke near or north and west of or at the mosque. Petri, can you get proper grabs here? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Same exact view.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * For identifying places this video is helpful. It shows a tour of main square. There are a total of 4 burnt vans, all seen on this video. The killed shabiha video is also from the same spot. The four bodies have been removed from the square. We cannot quite see if they have been thrown into the white wan, still unburnt. Notice the bloodstains on the pavement. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. – Earlier I thought that the square might have functioned as a temporary morgue, with killed rebels brought to the site, possibly for removal with the white pickup wan. I have now changed my mind. With the 20 bodies of the shabiha so close, it is likely they are from the same lot. It is also likely the 30 shabiha arrived in the four white vans (2 minibuses and 2 pickups). The vans are placed next to each intersection on the square, one more reason to believe they were part of some government security operation. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * P.P.S. – No, this does not make sense considering your "no bodies" timestamp below. I find it however extremely unlikely that the "regime" would have executed these people on the spot at 2 pm, when both international TV and the rebels had their cameras zoomed in on the square. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * (This is continued below) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:40, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

The Map
I just spent a little time scanning the videos and trying to place where smoke is coming from, or has been, where the security vehicles are, a burning civilian car, the different bodies. This is the map so far. Any details needing worked out should be suggested below, and as needed I will update this. Using most recent, Oct. 2011 Google Earth imagery. Fire triangles point to the building or vehicle burnt. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note on the northernmost fire triangle. It's just as likely or more likely from the mosque itself. The wind seems to prevail at this time in such a way some blows to the east, and apparently a bit north. That takes its origin zone back to about the mosue itself. Some reports specify the mosque itself was burned in the attack. Islam Syria, for example, says the horrible infidels took the sheikh, "slaughtered him with his wife and four children.... Then they demolished the mosque of the village, and set fire to it" and blamed "armed gangs of terrorists." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The Shop
A moment on the shop these bodies were seen in. Its shelves are empty, small machine, chairs, pink paint, various containers - I don't know. I'm guessing something health and beauty related. Maybe hair or nails. The surrounding footage is discontinuous, so we can't place it relative to the other footage. We could presume it's near the square, if looking for a match. The sign on the door should be readable. Let me get it uploaded here so I can use it to ask around (inset). I just found a tidbit that made me start this section: One posting of this video is titled " مسرب جمع الجثث قبل حرقها في محل عزام بياسي+ 18 " or (sort of) "MSRP collection of bodies by burning them in a shop Azzam Biasi" No Azzam on victim's list, not sure about prior arrested lists. Either a living loyalist, living rebel member, living fence-sitter, or killed elsewhere, right? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:40, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I got a translation. It says "accessories" and "service." Cell phones are one of the lines of work both words apply to. How that fits with the items inside, not sure. I didn't find any exact matches for Azzam Biassi and accessories and service, but found this in Arabic in a Syrian business listing for internet/dealers: (Google translated) "Nour Computer Center Hussein Zionist Banias - Al Ahmad Biasi 720128 963933425475 Dialup" The name "Zionist" is not a slur but a real name poorly translated. "صهيوني" - sounds like Shamawy, possibly more like Shaam-ist, adherent of greater Syria including Lebanon, Golan, and maybe zion/Israel too. Some members listed killed in Baniyas. Is this the activist Ahmad? I doubt it. Several Biassis live in Baniyas (as labeled on Wikimapia, six or so locales in the north-center, both SW and NE of the circle there). Might be solvable. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Hyundai Porter pickups
This BBC video from al-Qusayr shows security forces driving exactly the same white pickup. The white pickup in al Baida has some marking on the door. At first I thought it might be a logo for the outfit using the pickups, but in fact it is just marketing decorations for the model of Hyundai Porter pickups. I similar pickup is seen in this photo from Aleppo. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:26, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Very cool add. Looks like a pretty good match. I haven't the inclination to identify technical things, vehicles, weapons, Brown Mosesey stuff. But it is cool to have, and will be added to the article I'm wrapping up. A handy link to our uploaded wide-view image (good call) would help here. I forget how to do that, however and need to get back to that article. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Two similar pickups in this video by Qusair Media Center of rebels / civilians fleeing al-Qusayr. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Video Proof of SAA executions?

 * YallaSouriya 9:51 pm on May 3, 2013 – Translating this YouTube video: Expose the killers: a full analysis of the massacre of Banias - Beida (+18) Warning
 * Video shows what happened at Bayada and how the regime distorted the truth
 * Sama TV reporter’s Haytham Youssouf explains tha there was an gunfire exchange between armed a group hidden near the mosque minaret and the trees (the nature is entertwined with the village) and both the syrian army and snipers. He explains, that the Syrian army was able to enter the village from the school square and the second school square. The syrian army combed the area
 * ''1:01: “We hope that Bayda will be finished today, the army and the National defense are ready’'
 * Then the camera shows the army entering from the church with a brick roof, and in the back ground there are clashes between the trees who were set on fire. Residents have stayed indoor –
 * Then a series of pictures showing the killing in the square as filmed by Sama TV.
 * The second part of the video shows how the regime has used these pictures, adding arms and moving bodies around


 * YallaSouriya tags: bayada baida banyas

Watched this video with only the on-screen Arabic. I gathered the Jeesh Arabi Souri (Syrian Arab Army) was in control of the area down there and cleaning up. One of their trucks is shown with no dead bodies behind it. In another view (before? after?), those few famous men, apparently executed, lay behind the truck. So either the SAA was killing men there in the open after they took control, or picking up previously killed people in that truck, depending on image order (can be established!). And if the SAA executed those guys (it's possible), maybe they also bashed in those other guys' heads with bricks, etc. Ominous repetition of who was in control down there now. At first, I was going to write that it strongly suggests field executions by the SAA of possibly rebel fighters. But all I'll say is that's possible. Connecting this to all the rest of what happened, extremely tenuous proposition, in whichever case.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Petri, this seems to be the same footage you said elsewhere is filmed from a ridge west of town. I'm trying to get my bearings here. Can you identify this building, dead centered on GM? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought from the view of the square and the road curving off to the left that thew was from the northeast. It seems so. View of this building, road curve, and distant (poultry farms?) says the view is about down that NE-pointing perimeter wall on this place. Filming spot? Is that light speck dead-centered there this water reservoir? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Got my bearings, Petri, and pretty certain now. The building I asked you about is here. The April 5, 2010 imagery used for Google Maps is not a match, but on Google Earth, the later Oct. 5, 2011 imagery shows it's apparently been remodeled to match, with raised stairwell on the right side. The big two-building complex here on GM: I thought it almost must be the one I was looking for, despite no match, ridiculously speculating on a major re-model to one building... that, I realize, is visible in the video, lower left,  here, at 0:38, a distinct place on nearly the same line. So  yeah, we're looking west and southwest here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The above direction-setting will help establish solar angles and the timeline here. That, should go right below this, whoever does it first. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * My first look says both images -with and without the dad men -are from about the same time, not timed out but somewhat after noon, sun from the southwest. The prominent curved building face with the walkway has the tips of the walkway railing barely catching sun when there are no bodies (video 1:37) At 1:45, the other view, lower angle, apparently no sun hitting the corners. That suggests the sun has inched further west, so it's later. If so, that suggests the SAA did execute four guys there, in the open square. But that's a preliminary assessment, not at all certain yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The shirts pulled over heads is not a proof of anything. It is easy to claim it proves that the killed men were captives and thus executed. However, every prisoner I have ever seen, in Syria or in Iraq captured by Americans has had the shirt pulled over the head from behind. The dead men on the square have the shirts pulled over their head from the front. I believe this is just to cover their faces, to let them rest in peace and to indicate to others that the men are truly dead and do not need medical attention. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * True, and I see the same thing in those shirts. And they have their shoes on too, partly at least. They could have run up shooting and been shot down in action right there, although I kind of doubt that. We might be seeing a technical war crime here. As for all the others ... different stories, each one. In fact, there are marked differences between these and the others that might help make an interesting case. And a side-note, I'm stumped on the close-up photo. Activist image from "The Syrian Revolution against Bashar Assad" to AP. The video shows a wide-cropped version that I cannot find so far on the Internet as a JPEG. I wonder really how they got it? Not the usual place for the usual activists to be filming. Just up one of these hills (will identify it and get time stamps), they were filming people with shoes removed and executed en masse. That's more usual. But here the army is in charge. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

(Note: Updated May 30) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's the graphic. Azimuth (angles) approximate, using NOAA solar calculator, GMT +3 Here's the image, giving a time frame of about 1:50-2:10 PM, or around 15-25 minutes between images, killing at about 2 PM. Will double-check if I had the DST setting right, etc. Possibly should say an hour later. Either way, that's a small span, and a rather public spot to do this, a spot getting filmed by SANA just minutes before. Sure, you could make sure it's edited out, but there could be complications, best to just not let them see. But it's just enough minutes. It could be the movement we see there is connected to some captive rats being brought down the hill. Say, eight minutes later, perhaps, the commander verifies the news crew is done and gone, orders the rats exterminated right there. Maybe they were angry about the Imam and his family and other civilians being massacred and burned by these rats. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

To add, the wider version of the scene, and even wider: from Syriatruth. Might update the graphic now, with two reasons (I had DST wrong). --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Also to note, we've been citing four bodies, but the wider image I found clarifies there's a fifth body to the right, by the big (??) watermark, and more apparent soldiers taking a break along the north side of (city hall?). --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I find it however extremely unlikely that the "regime" would have executed these people on the spot at 2 pm, when both international TV and the rebels had their cameras zoomed in on the square. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC) (to further the discussion, copied from above)
 * That's certainly an issue. Somehow, it seems there were no rebel videos from the ridges at this time, but there could have been (how likely?) and SANA could be coordinated with. Either way, what I see though is bodies appearing ... and seemingly killed there, at least one pretty clear head-blood-pavement sandwich, made-on-the-spot.. However, given the rebel talk of few/no rebel fighters, but locals who briefly took up "weapons abandoned by defectors" before getting massacred anyways, there is a fight suggested, perhaps with stupid last-ditch stuff, where guys would run up (all the way to right there, all four?) and get shot down (all right there?). Or something. I don't know, but my best guess is the simple one. If it looks like an execution, it probably was. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * ...stupid last-ditch stuff, where guys would run up and get shot down. Or something. You mean like the Chechen guy in Florida? Yeah, sometimes these wackos just need a bullet through their head.
 *  If it looks like an execution... face down: execution, face up: morgue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. – Compare the positions of the bodies to this photo. Note the stretched out arms. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep - arms outstretched, dragged mainly feet-first into place after execution elsewhere, stripped. None of them has 3/4 of a head full of blood under their heads in these spots. Clarifies the differences. :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, very good. Looking closer, finally, at the picture, again: There is one - shirtless - who has that spray of blood AND he's face-down. The other four are on their backs or one on his side, looks like, and have shirts pulled over heads. Hmmm... odd sort of scattered morgue, no evident blood trail from dragging, etc. and one apparent on-site execution. Otherwise, face-up, no clear blood spray behind their heads. Wait ... checking again the video: on his side guy looks old, gray-haired, shot down walking, more than executed (2:42) - he'd be #5 I guess, off to the right. Two of the face-up victims at 2:48: that is a lot of blood right behind their heads, isn't it? Still looks like executions to me. But that's SANA's camera getting so close, not just up on the ridge, so there's that problem again. Hmmmm. A bit confusing. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Just in case I forgot to mention it, it's entirely possible these five apparent civilian men were locals shot down by a hidden rebel sniper after SAA control. No soldiers would be shot because they want it to make them look bad. Instead, they might drop half the locals who come out to greet the soldiers, deliver tips about the rats, etc. I still think it looks like they were killed there, after SAA control. It's evidence of SAA executions, but not proof, as these other options can't be ruled out. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Fighting and Burning Timeline
This is confusing. May 3 news and activist videos - ostensibly all from the previous day, show different things burning/burnt and different bodies killed or dragged away, at different times.

Videos (for reference): Al-Ikhbariya - Al-Manar - "Loyalist video"

First, the white porter pickup seen in the main square; in most views it's un-burnt, in later views its been gutted by fire, all on the 2nd. Or is it the other way around? As mentioned above, it seems the un-burnt white truck had men shot behind it around 3 PM local time, set by sunlight on the stairs - there is none, as that whole west face is in the building's shadow. Al-Ikhbariya (0:35) seems earlier, 1:15-1:20 PM (light just scraping the city hall's west face, light across most of its front stairs, just before solar noon) but the truck has already been burnt. Al-Manar, similar view (5:25) - sun across the whole staircase, truck charred. So how is it un-burnt again hours later?

The leaked loyalist video, seeming at least a little bit later than the above, shows the back end of a un-burnt truck in about that spot (at 1:14), with at least four blood stains behind it where men were shot and dragged away (by whomever). So in fact, a burned truck must have been removed and a fresh one parked in its spot, after 1:20 but before 2:50 and before that loyalist video. Right? So which one had its back window shot out? (Al-Manar 6:25) Or, is this somehow an event spanning two days? And which truck in that spot was seen burnt in this photo published by SANA May 15th? --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If you see see an unburnt truck at a later time of day than a burnt truck, then – by definition – the event spans two days. The burnt truck was never moved, it is still seen on photographs from two weeks later. (Gov: "People are welcome to return", linked somewhere on this page.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yes, linked right above, either the 15th or earlier. I'm not sure though if it's that clear. The basic position is a security checkpoint, a station at which the exact truck will vary. As I think you've noted, the satellite imagery from 2011 anyway has trucks parked in about the same spots at each end of the square. So it's possible they pushed one aside and drove in a new one. On the other hand, that is a bit odd toworry about that in the midst of a battle, especially with the same exact parking spot and angle, and for it to then be attacked and burnt again and, in the midst of returned calm peace-time, left un-replaced. And in fact I had someone recently tell me this massacre took place over two days, based on something I never did establish. Should ask back about that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

And when was this visual tour video made? It says May 2, no sunlight information, so either dusk after all this, or pre-dawn before it. As Petri noted, all four security vehicles we see are burnt. The bodies in the square either have been removed and had their blood washed away, or they haven't been killed yet. Several buildings two have witnessed burning, but none seem to be on fire at the moment. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Timeline Discussion
We could use one. I'll be out for over a day, and too tired to finish my planned intro. But in case CE, Petri, anyone else has thoughts on all the new and old timeline evidence, here's a spot to drop them as I plan a revision of that stuff. For example, is there a single video of the massacre scenes we can pin to May 2, or do thety all appear only on the 3rd? And what range of possibilities could explain that? Etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe we have established that the television channels were on the ridge overlooking al-Bayda reporting on the military operation on May 2nd. That is the day the material was broadcast. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, May 1 had a raid but no video, May 2 and 3 for the out in public violence after the SAA operation started, aired a bit on the 2nd, more so on the 3rd. But it's the massacres that matter, and those videos only appeared later. I suspect they were done before the first of those news videos, but checking the evidence is what this is all about. So far nothing proves it or rules it out. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:53, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

May 2 Reports: Delayed?
Okay then, I'll start. Under reports timeline below, we can see reports of a massacre only started coming in around 5 6:00 PM on May 2, with hints as early as 2 3 PM, mentioning injuries or deaths to two families among those who were soon listed as massacred. The numbers were counted, added and multiplied, and rising over the evening - 50, then 200 and maybe 300. A few images only appeared late in the day, the rest and apparently all videos (?), especially of women and children, surfaced the next day. So these are some of the main possibilities:
 * 1) Massacre after government offensive as rebels say, in the afternoon and night of May 2. The rebels would discover details sporadically, from a distance, until after the Shabiha retreated allowed for the standard rebel press free-for-all.
 * 2) Reports were held back from an earlier rebel massacres to make it seem kind of like #1 was the case. That massacre clues started emerging in the hours right after the conquest, about 2 PM people say, is consistent with that. It would be just as consistent if the videos were held back long enough to allow for a second night-morning span in which the killing and collecting of so many bodies could have happened.
 * 3) Reports reflect massacres just then happening in the PM, or even predictive reports - rebels had decided at least that many would be executed soon. Filming would then be after, easily arranged at any time up to and after dawn.--Caustic Logic (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm inclined to option 2, maybe a bit of 3. 3 Points from what I've been seeing:
 * The dead men on the slope by the mosque were filmed, as if something newly discovered and exciting, around 6:15 PM +/- 45 min, I estimate. They seem to have been there for a little while before that (can't say how long, but it looks natural, the delay) Earliest social media mention I could find of many people (50) massacred was at 6:16 PM. The minute coincidence means little, but the basic time might matter, as the time of announced discovery of the massacre's outer edges, allowing for some military action in the afternoon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Those might have been killed in the early PM, or shot again here after being killed elsewhere. But we have the pre-post-dawn clues that are compelling in suggesting an early morning massacre of the families: (see the next section and the analysis is still ongoing). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * There was a smaller raid on the 1st, that seems to have just stirred an underrated hornet's nest. As soon as the cover of dark arrived, they might set to go out stinging. These are the actions of the "Shabiha" of the Houla Massacre, enjoying primacy and the element of surprise they know won't last, and exploiting it to squeeze as much blood as possible from as few select homes as possible. Hence the intense military actions of May 2, that night, and into the next day against the 0-14 fighters. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Night-Morning Sequences
This is another important aspect of pinning things down. All ... I've already highlighted two spots where imagery sequence supports the time frame of night-then-morning that each video alone cannot do. These I will explain once more here and leave them open to challenge, elaboration, or any further supports. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ahmad Othman Moved: the youngest evident (male) victim from this massacre home (four civilian male victims, one rebel fighter), in his Qatar sports shirt was first seen in situ on the floor, probably where killed with his blood all over. It's dark is all we can say for sure as for time. Later, then, he was seen at the base of a wall on the gravel outside, in indirect light (perhaps after sunrise but in a building's shadow. His blood smeared on the wall, he almost seems, as some say, "executed in the street," and is identified as Ahmad Othman. I suspect the two images were taken during the same fairly brief period of rebel access to this site, which covered a span before and after sunrise at any rate. They would then be caught moving bodies around, perhaps meaning to create false narratives with them, and enjoying strange access for anyone but the killers. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * In "A Domestic Scene" (six victims, women and children) This scene was captured in two videos (both saved!), with again evidence the night/pre-dawn video was shot first. The young child of about 7, seemingly a boy but perhaps not, has wet his shorts, about to the knee in the dark video (at 0:37). Seen again in the (morning's?) light, they've dried more (0:10), but not completely. Hours but no more than that have elapsed in this night-morning sequence. The same issues of access are raised - opposition cameras hung around this scene for that span. It should also be noted the bodies of the children beneath their mother have been actually re-arranged between the two videos, for no clear reason except maybe to hide the boy's chest gore and make the video more palatable. The first one was a bit heavy in a number of ways. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Imagery Timeline
I'm using the tedious method of tracking social media reflections, with time stamps, to clarify the time of the day these Youtube videos were published. Several posting clustering around the earliest evident point suggests the buzz of initial release, a few minutes before that rush, identifiable in each case. This sets a rough no-later-than point for the filmed events. Considered with other clues, we can consider which time among those possible makes most sense. I tend to lean towards the earlier times, with all the videos held back and released only in trickles, for whatever reason. These are in partly chronological order of appearance:--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Curbside Victims: First video is variously dated in different postings as from May 2 or May 3. It was posted on Facebook at least as early as May 3 at 1:26 PM Syria time. As explained above, that was filmed in the 5:30-7:00 PM time frame, so clearly in that range on the 2nd. Right? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Square Killings Picture from #BaydaMassacre today taken from an pro-regime page, May 2 (12:23 pm, whose time?). Image is the five adult males killed in the main square apparently around 3:00 PM, under SAA control (As explained above). Seems to be reflected here about 11:30 that night.
 * Note: in this post, opposition sources cite hat these images are from loyalist sites and presumably cameras, as if soldiers or loyalists standing over the dead (whose deaths they blame terrorists for) proves the documenters killed them. There is that possibility of course, looking fairly strong in this case. Only after this precedent, it seems, later on the 2nd and into the following day, are opposition videos of rebels standing over slaughtered women and children posted. We're to ignore the possibility here... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Smashed-Head Victims: Earliest posting I've found is May 3, 12:24 AM, by all.banias.love.bashar.alassad (B.N.N. re-posted it 7 minutes later.). Being a daylight shot, clearly we can say it's May 2. From the long shadows, it's early morning or later afternoon, more likely the latter. They seem to have been dead some hours. The linked post seems vague on who these were and who smashed them so: "From here men of the Syrian Arab Army and security forces began operations after they had surrounded a group of infidels of Jabhat al-Nusra, ... But despite the wounds of some of the elements and the martyrdom others.... reinforcements arrived ... intrigues had begun." Can't decipher it totally, but sounds about right. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Othman Family (?): The video of what seems to be a teenage boy, three civilian men, and a rebel fighter dead inside a home cannot be timed aside from dark. I checked two posting of the video - both given as May 2 - for for appearances on Facebook. A few links (I didn't save) consistently suggest both started appearing shortly after 4 PM on May 3, so from that which morning can't be pinned down. It's either from that the end of May 2 and held back several hours, or from the previous dark and held back longer. As explained above, the video here comes before the photo of young Ahmed alone, moved out doors and staged anew.  So next, we might check for instances of that. But I haven't noticed it in anything early enough to change this by appearing too early to be the morning of May 3. Either day may remain possible, with the latter being the obvious likely choice under normal circumstances. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Another Domestic Scene": Filmed in the dark, this gives no solar time clues, and there are no other videos of this scene to add reference points for. I checked three postings from Petri's playlist. All appear, corrected to Syria local time, only on May 4, but early.
 * اكثر من 20 امرأة و طفل في مجزرة البويضة في بانياس جديد Appears: Tweet, 2:46 AM - Facebook, 2:47 AM - Tweet, 2:56 AM - Tweet, 3:19 AM
 * ابشع مجازر بني نصير في قرية البيضا ج2 +++18 Appears: Tweet, 2:54 AM - Tweet, 3:06 AM - Tweet, 3:06 AM
 * 18+ Syria - Alawite Militia Massacre Entire Sunni Families in Baniyas Appears: Facebook, 5:30 AM

The last had many posting on May 7 for whatever reason, but all later ones were ignored as useless for this exercise. The early buzz says the two postings at least must have been up at about 2:40-2:45 AM on May 4. So it could be held back from the night of May 1/2 before the main offensive, or 2/3 during the two days of open fighting, or after on May 3/4. Unusually, there's even a fourth slot; it could in fact be filmed the night of May 3/4 and posted right away. The given date tends to be May 2 or 3. My suspicion leans the early way, the first or second slot. More likely the first, but we can't seem to pin it down there except by noting the big death tolls were being cited before the sun set on May 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

This scene has two videos, the earlier one filmed in full dark, the later one is morning light. Or so I think anyway - I'm opening that to challenge under discussion, above. The earlier (night) video was held back, filmed the same night and dated May 2 in one posting, it only appeared on May 5 (posting 1: مشاهد من مجازر البيضا قاسي جدا +++18قاسي جدا posting 2: 18+ Syria - Alawite Militia Shows No Mercy to Sunni Family in Al Bayda - Massacre All 2-May-13), apparently late, with social media links appearing only on May 6 at times like 5:00 AM, 5:41, and later (sporadic). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * :"A Domestic Scene"

It's the morning video that actually sets a no-later-than time for both: (posting 1 - posting 2 - psting 3. These are posted May 3, and variously appear for the first time after 10:00 PM Syria time. 10:01 PM tweet 10:07 tweet - FB 10:09- FB 10:10 FB 10:23 ... So it appeared just before 10:00 Syria time, making the night/dawns of May 1/2, 2/3, possible but no later -the morning of the 3rd was the last night-dawn sequence prior to 10 PM that night. But from the confident big numbers of massacre victims before sunset of the 2nd, I'm going with the earlier among them as most likely. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Reports Timeline
The entries below pin down the first widespread news of the massacre to the evening of May 2.But first, perhaps the best thing to check is Twitter for messages in Arabic. This search page (for البيض -Bayda) helps. Entries reverse chronological order. A ways down they get thicker around mid-May, thicker yet May 3-6, and then thin out to the crucial trickle as far back as ... well, let's see, and becoming only sporadic before that. I checked the days before for any clues but saw none. (Did the same for Baniyas tag, combined list below)--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * May 1, 10:39 PM my time so, I think, = 8:39 AM May 2, Syria time. ‏@baniasrevo1: "Trapping Beida village now by Assad's gangs in large numbers and use Aldohکa in intimidating people .... photo linked, just rebel logos. This seems to describe the assault that supposedly preceded the massacres, but seems to have come after them."
 * Note: I was wrong. It's 11 hours. So make that 9:39 am. The following are now updated.

(skipping all non-massacre tweets... others however repeat this about "fierce clashes")
 * Same logic says 10:47 AM May 2, @breakingnewssy: "URGENT: Reef # Tartus: security forces raided the den of a weapon in the village of al-Bayda in Banias #"
 * May 2, 11:10 AM, @Ugarit_News: "# Beida # Banias :: at 8:50 AM, violent clashes between fighters of the Free Army and Assad's forces in the village and ..." (photo linked unavailable)
 * 11:27 AM @Syria_Mubasher: "Regime forces backed by large numbers of Shabiha surrounded the village and launched a campaign blitz in conjunction with heavy gunfire"
 * 11:36 AM, @ameryaseen: "# Rebel ambush kills Banias 4 of the security forces and the deaths of more than 20 injured"
 * 3:13 PM @baniasrevo1: "Wounding three households directly and destruction of a large section and return them home for the Mahmoud and Al Shoghri" (both families listed as suffering "field executions" in the massacre)
 * 5:54PM ‏@Syrian_Truth: "arrest of 17 terrorist of mercenaries victory in the area ..."
 * 6:16 PM @AlArab_Qatar: "Activists: Massacre now get near Beida in Banias using bladed weapons and slaughter knives."
 * 7:20 PM, @osama5th: O tuff situation of our brothers there and your family Bashar and his aides, the suffering and turn only in God, the great massacre under international silence underwhelming .. Pray, pray
 * 8:01 PM ‏@fqad: "The official Syrian Revolution page on Facebook movement fall of 50 martyrs, mostly women and children, were slaughtered with knives"
 * 9:07PM ‏@LFofficialpage: "# _ Revolutionary Council: regime forces executed 200 people in # Beida in the countryside # Banias"
 * 9:29 PM @SulimanAsaad: "If true, the numbers speak for 300 Shahid in # Beidha This means that the system has killed more than 10 per cent of the population of the village .. Is not the this sectarian extermination?"

Syrian street at http://sy-street.net/ reports on May 2nd
 * Violent clashes near the Banias and the army closed the international road
 * Media sources reported that violent clashes took place on Thursday morning, May 2 / May in the village of egg to Banias between the elements of the Syrian Arab Army and armed men were present in the village.
 * The sources said that the clashes began about seven o'clock in the morning and continues until now, and this is why the army to cut the international road between Tartus and Banias.
 * The sources added that the army carried out raids and arrested a number of wanted men in the same village.

Longer story from the same site, with photos:
 * High-ranking military source of the "Syrian street": So would respond to any armed rebellion in safe areas
 * Syrian army was able to control the town, "Beida" in Banias on Thursday, May 2, 2013. And the number of people killed dozens of militants, as dozens of them surrendered the Army was the confiscation of large quantities of weapons.
 * (Google translated)The violent clashes have occurred this morning ... gunmen ambushed left for a unit of the army during a raid carried out after receiving (reports) About Seen weapons depot which resulted in 6 martyrs and 23 wounded. The army has converted the international road from Highway Tartous - Banias to the secondary road ensure the safety of citizens and has re-opened at a later time.

Al Arabia: 2 May 2013 KSA 22:22 - GMT 19:22
 * Watchdog reports ‘massacre’ in Bayda, at least 50 dead

YallaSouriya 8:08 pm on May 2, 2013
 * #Syria, Latakia, Banyas, young men arrrested (photo)

YallaSouriya 10:23 pm on May 2, 2013
 * #Syria, Picture from #BaydaMassacre today taken from an pro-regime page.

Facebook post by Bristol Justice for Syria on May 2, 10,29 pm
 * At 6 in the morning Assad forces surrounded Al-Bayyda in Banays, they raided homes and arrested more than 200 people including women and children. Women were raped in groups in the streets in front of their families by the regime forces. The 200 arrested were executed in the streets and then burned.
 * ''The international community has been silent and let Assad continue committing genocides and ethnic clearing of people in Homs and other cities to pave the way for Assad to divide Syria!!!!
 * First photo of the massacre to be released by activists

YallaSouriya 2:27 am on May 3, 2013
 * Pro-Assad pages on Facebook admitting to, and celebrating, the massacre in #Bayda by Assad forces.

YallaSouriya 2:21 am on May 3, 2013
 * From a pro-regime FB page. These are “terrorists” (civilians) who were field-executed in Bayda, #Banias today. #Syria

Events Timeline
Note: This timeline and whole page was begun on the prevailing premise - from all our early reading on both sides - that everything happened on May 2. But a few things, like video images that make little sense on the same day, are now pointing at two days in which fighting and burning happened around al-Bayda's city square (May 2 and 3). And also the crisis dated back to the afternoon of May 1 at the latest, for a broader timeline than we started with in both direction. The crucial videos could in fact be from either night-morning span in that range. The timeline therefore will be updated sometime. Until then, see Timeline Discussion

There is some science to this, and more specifics to find, so don't be surprised if this winds up shuffling around. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

- 4 AM: New York Times: "Activists said that on May 2, around 4 a.m., security forces came to detain defectors, and were ambushed in a fight that killed several government fighters — the first known armed clash in Baniyas."
 * This puts a short time frame on the rest, so either this happened earlier, things moved very quickly, or the sequence was different than we've been thinking. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

- Pre-Dawn Massacre Scenes: the following at least were dead and filmed by rebels/activists in full pre-dawn dark. Pre-dawn clues (as opposed to, say, the following night) are noted with two entries. We can say these scenes existed before, say, 5:30 am. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

- bedroom scene, 6 dead, women and children (Fattouh-Biassa family?) Pre-dawn clues: a boy victim wet his shorts, which are more dried in the daylight (later) video)

- Room of  Horror, app. 20 dead, all women and children (famil(ies) unclear, analysis pending)

- Othman home, 5 dead males, mostly adult. Pre-dawn clues: 15-year-old Ahmad is clearly in situ here, so clearly moved for a later photo, in low (early) daylight.

- Three charred men, out in the street, intense smoldering (just finished burning). One is reportedly Ibrahim al Shoghri, 69.

- 6 AM: "At 6 in the morning Assad forces surrounded Al-Bayyda in Banays" (a Facebook page

- 6:44 AM: Sunrise According to the NOAA solar calculator, with proper settings (DST, check) apparent sunrise in al-Bayda is given as 6:44 am. Azimuth 70.5 degrees (compass direction NE to the sun).

- Morning Massacre Scenes: the following scenes at least were still accessible to rebels and filmed again in daylight, possibly before sunrise but when the sky is at least partly lit-up. This is presumed early morning, or sometime before they lost control of the particular area of filming (times are generally uncertain at the moment): the bedroom scene (see same link as above), charred men (intense smoldering, just finished burning - again - same link), Ahmad of the Othman family (moved, see same link), Sheikh Omar al-Biassi, and the smashed-head victims. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

- 7 AM: pro-gov. source: "The clashes began about seven o'clock in the morning." (the earlier ambush is mentioned, but not taken as the start of "clashes") "The government called in reinforcements and, by 7 a.m., began shelling the village." (New York Times) "The bombing started at seven in the morning on Friday until ten o'clock, (14 artillery shells and rockets and machine guns) ... during this time villagers fled through the orchards ... several hundred remained." (anti-gov. activists)

- 10 AM: anti-gov. activists: "at 10:00 began the attack ... (by Christian forces?) ... began to massacre, and continued until two o'clock PM"

- 1:33 PM: Solar noon (sun due south), per NOAA (for reference purposes).

- 2 PM and After: anti-gov. activists: "(the city was?) calm after two o'clock PM, but rapists remained and spread until the evening."

- 3 PM: Approximate time of killing of 5 men in the main square, then under SAA control. A white government truck is abandoned, one van burnt out, another burning intensely.

- Later in the afternoon: smashed-head victims photographed by loyalist sources.

Consider: SCDV description for all al-Bayda victims: they were field executed in "a Massacre (that) claimed the lives of dozens of martyrs, while the regime forces surrounded Al of Beida village and shelling it with heavy weapons then they storm it by supporting pro- regime thugs(( shabeeha)) and Popular Committees militia ..." Considering the fairly consistent timeline, this description is more misleading than technically incorrect. The massacres happened in the pre-dawn dark, in the latter part of which the government offensive "surrounded" the town, so "while" is not the best word, but not the worst. "Before" would have been better. Then they perhaps shelled the parts of it where they thought themassacre perpetrators and their allies were based, then invaded and made arrests. If the massacres happened in the afternoon, that would be one thing, but they occurred in the period of rebel supremacy before the government attack. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Noteworthy Witnesses
(a select few anyway)

"Syrian Intelligence Officer"
Reuters filed a detailed report in late May after visiting al-Baida and meeting supposed experts. The author isn't named, but Oweis is my guess. The report said in part:
 * The Syrian government has kept silent about Baida. But a Syrian intelligence officer, speaking anonymously, acknowledged that the perpetrators were government loyalists, including some from the surrounding Alawite villages.

In more detail,
 * ...there is little doubt that details of the massacre are known among the ranks of Syrian intelligence. In Tartous, a hefty, tattooed man who works for state intelligence, "in the cyber security branch", and is a member of the pro-government Shabbiha militia, said his chain of command knew exactly what had unfolded in Baida and Ras al-Nabaa.
 * "It was the regime loyalists who did it, from the surrounding Alawite villages," said the official, who did not want to give his name. "But they were not acting under orders. They carried it out on their own accord."
 * "The leadership has all the names of the perpetrators, but now is not the time to punish them for the crime."

Well, that sounds possible. But I don't suggest taking at face value what conveniently hulking, tattooed, bearded "Shabiha", like the famous example shown in the inset image here, say is true. Surely he's not exactly the man the Reuters dupe spoke to, but I guess he was quite similar anyway. Others of this stripe speak of genocide against the Sunnis. This one sounds a little more nuanced. Here's what else he said on broader developments.
 * Asked if the idea of an Alawite state sounded viable to the intelligence community, he said the idea is often discussed. "But the leadership definitely rejects it. It would be the absolute worst case scenario, an independent Alawite-loyalist state," he said. "We'll have Homs, Damascus and the coast. (The rebels) can have Aleppo and Deir al-Zor, Qamishli and the north. Sure, let them have it." --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

"Ahmad"
This astute historian of the al-Bayda massacre, who lost a brother, spoke to Reuters, from his detailed notes, after rebels snuck the unnamed Reuters reporter (Oweis?) into Baydah. "Witness: Ahmad: Ahmad said in his modest but immaculately tidy home. He fetched from another room his notebook, where he had meticulously recorded in neat handwriting everything he saw." "I woke up to the sound of bullets before 7 a.m.," then shells. He had his wife and kids hide in the basement while he went upstairs to where his brother and mother lived. His mother ugerd her sons to hide in the attic "When the sound of gunfire kept getting closer," and Ahmed did, even though none of them did anything wrong. His fool brother remained, arguing that he had nothing to fear. His Naiivite was fatal. He heard the gunmen break in, "shouting insults and calling the family "dogs". Ahmad's sister-in-law said the gunmen told her husband to "bow to your god, Bashar" then dragged both away with their two teenage sons, "towards the village square."

After two hours, the shooting-noise whatever stopped and he ventured out. No cover-up, no more soldiers, just a dazed observer observing, like, everything, in every corner of town:
 * A few steps from his home, somewhere near the main village square, Ahmad discovered his brother's body. "He had been stripped of his clothes," he said, reading from his own record of what he saw. He paused and composed himself. "He had been shot in the head, and the bullet left a gaping hole the size of a hand. His blood had been shed on the ground." For almost 90 minutes, Ahmad described how he found torched bodies and evidence of mass killings: in one case 30 men, and in another, 20 women and children who had hidden in a small room.* He read out the names of the dead, their occupations, ages and relations to each other, and the positions of their bodies. The attack left dozens of his relatives and neighbors dead. Ahmad recorded every detail so that history might judge.
 * * There's only one video-supported scene like he describes, 20-ish women and children dead in a room, to our knowledge. Perhaps he refers to a different scene, but rebels usually like to explain just what we're seeing in their Youtube videos. And that scene emerged later, attributed to the Baniyas massacre. Wasn't it? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Bayda. Must be most of the massacred Biassies, all but the men, or perhaps other families represented. Scene analysis here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There was Sheikh Omar Biyasi, 62, whose body Ahmad found alongside the Sheikh's slain wife and son, Hamzah, a medical student. ... Ahmad found bodies belonging to the family in one small room; a mother and her three daughters and young son, who was at the local school with Ahmad's children. "They were leaning on each other," Ahmad recalled.

See Talk:Al-Bayda Massacre for visuals and thoughts on this scene.
 * Before dark set in, Ahmad stumbled upon another chilling sight. Three charred bodies lay one on top of the other. "Smoke was still rising from one of them," he said. They were identified the next day, when the Red Crescent came in with a government official. One of the charred victims was Ibrahim al Shoghri, 69, who was mentally disabled.

See here for visuals and thoughts on the charred men.

"Omar"
New York Times, May 14:
 * After dragging 46 bodies from the streets near his hometown on the Syrian coast, Omar lost count. … Omar, of nearby Ras al-Nabeh, the man who had dragged dozens of bodies from the streets, said he had helped Bayda residents pick up bodies, placing 46 in two houses and the rest in a mosque, then had run away, fearing the return of the killers. He said he had recognized some bodies, including the village sheik, Omar al-Bayassi, whom some considered pro-government. ... For four days, he said, he could not eat, remembering the burned body of a baby just a few months old; a fetus ripped from a woman’s belly; a friend lying dead, his dog still standing guard.

He, or he and others with him counting, "dragg[ed] 46 bodies from the streets," then "lost count" at 47, and kept dragging an unknown number past that. Must be more than one or two, or he'd say "about 48-50." That's a lot of dragging. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The only burned baby we can verify is supposed to have been killed in Baniyas, and the only pregnant woman we have a visual on is also supposed to be there, and wasn't cut open, at the time of the one rebel video anyway. There's a case here, far from conclusive, for some kind of massacre confusion that's a clue of deception. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * On the disturbing fetus story, and the prgnant woman apparently filmed in al-Bayda after all, see here).--Caustic Logic (talk) 14:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

H.A.N.
A Syrian activist group compiled a semi-detailed report in Arabic, with a mammoth list of 165 victims names, based on testimony of alleged witness H.A.N. ( ح . أ . ن ). By this version, it wasn't so much surrounding Alawite Shabiha that did the massacre as Christians from a village Marah ( المراح ) and/or a mountain ( العجمة ), with Muslim captives taken to a village alzubh ( الزوبة ) and burned alive. No mention is made of early clashes, with the first violence from 7-10 am, massacres from 10-2 PM, and rape after that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikimapia: الزوبة (Alzubh) - المروج ("Murah" - Marah?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

or on Google Maps but not on Wikimapia, Al Mrah, just north of Bayda. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

SOHR Reports

 * May 2: Tartous province- Banias city:
 * ''There are reports of summary executions being committed by regime forces and pro-regime gunmen (Shabiha) in the village of al-Bayda, on the outskirts of the city, as testified by locals. the SOHr is yet to verify the deaths because of the regime control of the area and the cut off of communication there. Regime forces went on a raid and arrest campaign in the village, detaining 8 civilians, including 2 children, after storming the village. Mortars were launched onto the village during the storming. The area by the village was the site of earlier clashes today between rebels and regime forces, leading to the death of 6 regime forces and the injury of no less than 20 others, no reports yet on the number of rebels killed.
 * (as at Taldou, I suspect not enough to slow them down much as the massacres ensued) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * May 2: Tartous province- Banias city:
 * There are several and conflicting reports on the number of people killed in the village of al-Bayda by regime forces and pro-regime gunmen from the nearby villages. Some testimonies indicate that more than 50 people were killed, including women and children, by summary execution, some were claimed to have been killed by knives, blunt objects and burning. Other reports put the number of dead higher, to more than 100. There are tens of villagers who have gone missing. Several houses were burnt and destroyed. It must be stated that the SOHR has not been able to verify the deaths, with full telephone and internet blockout in the village, which is under regime control.
 * We strongly urge the Red Cross and legal organisations to head to al-Bayda village to document and verify the level of death and destruction caused.
 * The city of Banias itself is witnessing a cautious calm after the gunfire and bombardment that took place in the southern neighbourhoods.
 * Violence in the Banias area is extremely worrying since its demographics easily lend to sectarian communal violence.


 * May 3 update
 * Tartous province: No less than 51 people were summarily executed yesterday by regime forces and Shabiha in the village al-Beyda, some were shot to death others were killed by knives, blunt objects or burning. The dead include women and children. Today regime forces and Shabiha have gone on a campaign of raiding many houses in the southern neighbourhoods of Banias, targeting particularly the houses inhabited by internally displaced refugees, and the owners of the houses being used by them. They are being taken away to the political security branch. The SOHR fears that another sectarian massacre would talk place in these neighbourhoods due to the intensity and nature of the conflict.
 * Early footage to be taken out of the village: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-EE96eCrUo


 * May 6 update:
 * Tartous province - Banias: The city and its surrounding area is witnessing calm, with no gunfire being heard, regime forces have also stopped raiding houses and detaining people. This comes days after 2 massacres were committed in the area: in the Ras al-Nabe' neighbourhood of Banias and in the village of al-Beyda.

DPA
Via Moon of Alabama: German news agency DPA reports details about the "earlier clashes" mentioned by SOHR:
 * Activists said troops attacked al-Bayda after a bus carrying pro-regime militants, known as Shabiha, was attacked, killing at least seven and wounding more than 30.

--CE (talk) 16:30, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Islam Syria
Perhaps the best source at presenting the unabashed rebel zeitgeist of this event, Islam Syria, May 6. In part, it says (varying translation):
 * ... invasion of Banias and white and began boots artillery from land and sea bombardment since the morning of Wednesday, 21.06.1434 and 01.05.2013 and income shabeeha screaming oh revenge Hussein ... Having killed the men and young boys, entered into people's homes, killing harem and children shot dead, slaughtered knives was the حصية and killed nearly 400 innocent to the same 500
 * Among the dead were Baathists partisans, they told them we Baathists like you, they replied they all of you are dogs and agents Israel and America ... the imam of the mosque of Sheikh Omar Biasi. That Baathis appeared on the channel world (? or "minimum channel," قناة الدنيا ), and pointed to the Mujahideen calling them armed terrorist gangs. After (how long after?) end of the interview (who?) dragged him to the arena (from the TV station?) and slaughtered him with his wife and four children. It is clear and evident to the Baathists among the Sunnis that they are being targeted with death
 * Among the dead were Baathists partisans, they told them we Baathists like you, they replied they all of you are dogs and agents Israel and America ... the imam of the mosque of Sheikh Omar Biasi. That Baathis appeared on the channel world (? or "minimum channel," قناة الدنيا ), and pointed to the Mujahideen calling them armed terrorist gangs. After (how long after?) end of the interview (who?) dragged him to the arena (from the TV station?) and slaughtered him with his wife and four children. It is clear and evident to the Baathists among the Sunnis that they are being targeted with death

on the second day (May 2?) beat artillery neighborhood of Ras spring in Banias, Fahadmoa three groves, then entered the neighborhood, and slaughtered with knives and machetes nearly 255 breath to see shouting Oh Hussein Oh Hussein, and on Basathm Photos Khomeini, looks, and God knows involvement of Hezbollah in the crime of the slaughter of Muslim men and old men and children, and destroyed in Banias Taqwa Mosque in the Rifah by the observatory, Favre people of Banias and surrounding villages toward Tartus, but the army and the security and shabeeha أوقفوهم and took their identities, and let them access to Tartus escape death, and are still stuck there from the door of humiliation and degradation.''

--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

SyrPer
Already on Thursday, he reports:


 * TARTOUS: Not much usually happens here in this bastion of pro-government citizens. But, the rats are desperate and are looking for other places to settle. No such luck.


 * 2 warehouses filled with weapons were destroyed by the SAA and militia.


 * At Al-Baydha Village, heavy machine guns were seized and turned over to our brave NDF. There were automatic assault rifles, components for RPGs, RPGs, IEDs and very advanced communication equipment that will remain unused. The owners of the 2 warehouses claim ignorance. But just give them some time with the AI people and they'll warble arias.


 * At Al-Marqab, site of the magnificent coastal fortress, SAA killed 19 insects. Their names are being collected by Wael. He writes that they appear foreign. There are Saudis in the group.


 * In Banyaas itself, at the Al-Nabi' Quarter, we killed 17 rats:


 * 'Ali Mashnooq (Well, he never made it to the gallows)
 * Safwaan Qaramaan
 * Mahmoud Al-'Aashiq
 * Raami Jameel
 * Nabeel Haddaad
 * 'Ali Humaydaan


 * The rest had no papers.

--CE (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Syrianews

 * SAA Commits Massacres in Bayda & Qussayr Countryside – Arabi Souri, May 4, 2013

Tartous today

 * Full field report of the events of the city of Banias 05/02/2013 – Date Posted: 02/05/2013 01:26 am

Activists

 * Syria: massacres over last few days | 36 hours comms blackout | Anons restore Internet – May 8, 2013

TV

 * Al Manar 3 May 2013 from Bayda and Qussayr (4:55)
 * Notice how they show the same scene from the central square twice, first with a white pickup and bodies, then with the bodies gone and the bodies gone – with SAA taking cover behind the building. Some rebel counter attack must have happened in between. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * ...or maybe first video is activist footage from time before SAA arrived. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Our work is done! Everything is explained here in great detail, by al Arabiya channel. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:51, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In the horrific massacre of Banias detailed explanation of the massacre carried out by the occupation Brigades stamens SYRIA 5-5-2013 ‬

AlJazeera propaganda "documentary" with English subtitles. Contains some unseen footage of the curbside victims. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC) From the same YouTube channel: Some more footage here:
 * Banias - Witness on the Massacre 18+ بانياس - شاهد على المجزرة
 * New scene was not presented before the massacre Beida + + +18 – Al-Jazeera coastal, uploaded May 26, 2013
 * New evidence leaked of Banias massacre confirm that the martyrs are all civilians


 * Al-Ikhbariya full broadcast, good quality, helpful footage. بانياس تطهير البيضا من المجموعات الارهابية (Banias Beida cleansing of terrorist groups) syriaalikhbaria, May 3. Will change the curbside scene placement and help in other areas. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * طرطوس - القضاء على إرهابيين في المرقب والبيضا ورأس النبع (Tartous - the elimination of terrorists in the observatory, Beida and Ras spring) Syriatube87, May 3. Good quality footage

Newspapers

 * Dozens Killed By Assad Troops In Bayda Massacre, Syrian Activists Say – Ryan Lucas, May 2, 2013
 * Dozens massacred as Syrian forces storm coastal village – Reuters, May 2, 2013
 * Thousands flee Syrian city of Banias fearing new 'massacre' – Associated Press, 4 May 2013
 * Images of Sabra and Shatila in Banias – The Daily Star, Lebanon, May 04, 2013
 * An Atrocity in Syria, With No Victim Too Small – New York Times, May 14, 2013
 * Telegraph: "Sunni village 'massacred' in Alawite heartland."

UN

 * Syria:Thousands Displaced By Deadly Violence in Baniyas Area – Press Release: UN News, 13 May 2013

Photos

 * Other picture of AL Bayda's massacre: Partly charred bodies, many, about 20+, piled in a room. Posted by yallasouriya, 11:23 am on May 4, 2013.
 * First pictures of Al Bayda village massacres by LccSy
 * 750 martyrs in Syria today!
 * Facebook more
 * awda-dawa.com

Two photos we've never seen, posted on June 2, the one-month anniversary, claimed to from (G-trans) "the month before the horrific massacre of the day in the village of al-Bayda." (on this day last month?) Posted by Ahmed Abul Khair on his Google +page, the two horrible photos can be seen is this slideshow. First, IMG-20130520-WA0000 "A picture of a martyr killed and then burned in the massacre committed by sectarian gangs in the village of al-Bayda." Quite charred, covered in some rubble inside a burnt out room with lots of daylight. Then 20130525-WA0013.jpg, "Children slaughtered at the hands of the Alawite bands..." One teenage boy, dead on the dirt next to a soccer ball. It would almost seem he was killed while playing socker except his arms and legs show signs of severe torture, probably not right here, without his ball rolling away. But it seems he did his final bleeding on this spot. So it looks staged. Photo taken in the dark, presumably pre-dawn. From the darkness on his right jaw/neck below the ear, this might be the boy seen closer up on the daylight photos with that area torn fully open somehow. see here, if prepared for a horrible sight. However, that would mean both sides of his upper neck behind the jaw were destroyed like this. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:20, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm really on a roll tonight. This same kid can be seen among the curbside victims, as if they were piled up around him. this video, 0:14-0:16. Same shirt, an indented wound uncannily in the same spot as on the other side (if the same kid). Rough treatment. He's laid out about the same way here as in the photo, but this is a second placement, I think. Otherwise, his blood would run the other way on the pavement, and the ball definitely would have rolled away. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The closeup photo with the neck wound must be a mirror image. It most likely came from the same batch as the closeup of sheikh Omar. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:08, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought of that and ruled it out. But you're right. Horizontal flipping explains it, even the reddened patch along the side of his head. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

April 2011

 * Syria Presses Crackdown in Two Cities on Coast – New York Times, April 12, 2011 (mirror)

BBC
BBC's Ian Pannell is in Syria interviewing alleged witnesses. This video was published today on the BBC site. The story itself is about Russian S-300 deliveries but has nothing to do with the 4 minute video.
 * Syrian activists document al-Bayda and Baniyas 'massacre' – BBC, May 28, 2013
 * Earlier this month the government said it had killed "terrorist fighters" in an operation in three neighbouring districts in al-Bayda and Baniyas in the west of the country.
 * But graphic video footage and fresh eyewitness testimony appear to support claims that the area was witness to one of the worst atrocities of the conflict.

Yes, this is true. But in the broadcast Ian Pannell jumps to the unexplained conclusion, that the troops and Alawite militia seen on video in the main square in al Baida are the same "militia" that then went to Baniyas to butcher the families there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

IRIN
May 28, Iranian-Indonesian radio, Iranian site, Indonesian language. Translated, it says in part:
 * Front Al-Nusra dan FSA Teror Imam Masjid Homs
 * Earlier, the militants also massacred Bayasi Omar Sheikh, his wife and two daughters in the village of al-Baiyda, Banias, for failing to declare jihad and give the key to a militant mosque.

Channel 4

 * Al-Bayda: anatomy of a war crime – 13 SEPTEMBER 2013
 * By 5pm the massacre was over. The Syrian army had killed at least 169 civilians in four hours. The verified final death toll is likely to reach beyond 250.
 * Debunk: "Channel 4 has verified the names of 169 people..." What? "Yes, those are names. Verified." ?? About 100, +/- 20, is supported by visuals, reasonable reports verified from different angles. The only list with about this number is the biggest we could find, 165, published shortly after. This contains numerous duplicate entries, re-mixed names that appear on no other sources, etc. That was the previous least-substantiated high estimate, but this campaign insists on taking a toll just higher than that as the starting point, the low-end totally verified number, which is probably more than 250, or likely twice this minumum. Where the extra people went, why not listed up front or even by now months later, all unexplained. Later, maybe 250-300 will be the low end "verified" estimate, with perhaps 1,000 killed...--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

This is interesting: Bodies were stacked up in the local cellphone shop and burned, making them hard to identify. How did they know it was a cellphone shop? Did they read it here? Or did they really do their investigation on the site? No, most likely they interviewed some "survivors" in Turkey? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They either copied us, or made the same call after doing what we did, which is easy if you read Arabic. They include pictures of Sheikh Omar with Syria's colors, but make no mention here. It's all "they were Sunni!" Pathetic. Getting debunked. New tidbits might be noted. Made a reference to attach. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch
Concurrent with the show above, HRW released a report on the massacre, 169 plus about 80 only over in Baniuas, all based on what rebels people said, none of it double-checked. The PDF adds some fascinating images, locations, and alleged details. It will get worked in here to some extent. Human Rights Watch worked with activists and four alleged survivors, seven other residents, and four "first responders who discovered the corpses." (Question: can a killer also be the first responder? Technically, I think yes.) All of these had fled to or were met in other countries and apparently were picked by the activist networks. There was no in-country investigation or attempt to speak to Syrians who definitely lived in al-Bayda, or to government supporting Syrians at all. It was all accepted as given on the activists' word, it seems. They did rely heavily on Syrian state and allied media channel news footage to prove a military presence around the time of this massacre and to glean details on who was involved.
 * Press Release, September 13: Syria: Mass Executions by Government Forces
 * September 13 report: "No One's Left." Direct PDF link
 * Syria's government acknowledged that it conducted military operations in al-Bayda and Baniyas, but said that its forces had responded to rebel ambushes and killed only “terrorists.” Commenting on the killings in al-Bayda and Baniyas, Ali Haidar, minister of state for national reconciliation affairs, told the Wall Street Journal that "mistakes" may have been made and that a government committee is investigating.

The effect of the scare quotes, alongside the record of intentional slaughter of children and women, is clear. It's manipulative. What they meant was they killed the terrorists who killed the families, and there may have been mistakes, like the one apparent field execution in the main square we too can document, at about 3 PM on May 2. It means little next to what the rest of the evidence and all logic considerations wind up saying. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC) and --08:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Sam Dagher, WSJ
The above report cites an article I had completely missed, run in the Wall Street Journal online on July 30: In Syria, Signs of Civilian Massacre This is my new favorite source. I will subscribe and double-check that this repost is accurate, but if so, what a report. A captured rebel revealed the weapons cache location, spurring the raid, and the ambush, and then the army came.
 * The events of the next few hours are disputed. Some residents who described themselves as regime opponents said the rebels fled immediately. But Mr. Bayasi, the selectman, said that before rebels left, they executed several residents they viewed as regime appeasers. Those killed, he said, included his cousin, Omar Bayasi, an imam who had been a member of a government-sponsored reconciliation committee in Tartus province, as well as the cousin’s wife and son.

Imam al-Shoghri, local Imam (after Biassi's retirement?) counted 139 bodies, many would be his own family. HRW says the al-Shoghri victims were massacred in homes immediately next to the torched mosque.

United States
The reported massacre is said to have influenced the U.S. to again air the possibility of directly arming the rebels. Next batch of people called-in as killed by Shabiha and never investigated will lead to yet another airing and eventually maybe some guns. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


 * State Dept'spokesman Jen Psaki, May 4: Massacre in al-Bayda
 * The United States is appalled by horrific reports that more than 100 people were killed May 2 in gruesome attacks on the coastal town of al-Bayda, Syria. Regime and Shabiha forces reportedly destroyed the area with mortar fire then stormed the town and executed entire families, including women and children.
 * They make it sound exactly like the Houla massacre. Let's hope it was more like Tremseh. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought the Al Bayda Massacre was in Libya! Yeah, History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's just a common name, especially for more or less coastal towns. "The White." Could be referring to limestone, as I think it did in Libya's "the white (monastery)." As if it matters/for a side thing, any related parallels could go here, but aside from dead soldiers, the basic details are pretty different. So other than linguistically and maybe geographically, little repetition here, aside from the whole "Arab Spring / people's uprising" correlations.   --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It's here. Astonishingly, white like snow in summer! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Baniyas Massacre

 * ''Moved to Talk:Baniyas massacre.

Syriangirl
This was just posted on Facebook by Syriangirl. I understand these to be not her own observations, but she is reposting comments made on her wall by others. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Here is the information i have received from sources inside and close to Syria.


 * An activist
 * So all this non-ending arguement about Banias.To sum it up here is what happened guys.. my sources are friends from Banias. I heard many stories but im sharing only whats in common in all stories.
 * This guy Omar Biaasie, the Imam of Bayda mosque.. he was a big revhead. Then a while ago. They made a lie about him that SAA killed him. So he appeared on the Syrian TV saying they are lying and its part of the propaganda. Apparently FSA hated him for this. And now it was the right time to kill him and his family for real this time to blame the SAA and whine about it like they always do.
 * The other family that was killed was his sister-Manar Biaasie-, her husband and their kids. also proves that him and his family were the ones targeted. btw Bayda isnt all opposition. There are some pro people there too.
 * SAA patrol was besieged near Al-Bayda first, 4 were martyred. Then more army came to help them. Before the army got there, terrorists were in control of the town and did their massacre killing the 2 families of Baiaase. Army came, surrounded the Bayda. Killed the terrorists. 9 soldiers were martyred in this operation. Since there were army martyrs, it means the town was infected with many rats. So whoever killed those soldiers also killed the 2 families. They've done it too many times already in Hawleh and Karm-Zieton. Maybe a desperate try to ruin SAA recent achievements and accuse us of being sectarian which in turn justifies their crimes. Please be careful guys and don't get too excited posting stuff before you're sure. You're just doing them a great favor for free.
 * check this its from an opposition page> it says names the people who died in the massacre.. they know exactly who they killed.
 * http://www.facebook.com/Saned.N.N/posts/648416878518109


 * Sabina Chia
 * Syriangirl I have family there! this is bullshit!
 * The fact is this started circulating when Abdel Salim Khadam's people who are the main sponsors of terrorism in the are shot dead two children from Banias! THE REASON THEY PUT THIS TRAP WAS TO COVER THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY SHOT 2 CHILDREN ,ON THEIR BALCONY (ROOF) IN BANIAS!!!!!!!!THE CHILDREN WERE FROM MY FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 * Arabi Souri
 * What do you know about those militias? I know them. I have friends among them, i was following them from Latakia countryside to Bayda when they were NOT allowed by SAA to go in due to the sectarian and local tribal sensitivity in that area, yet I refused to comment as tensions are still there.

Saned N.N.
Facebook, Tartous # # # Beida Banias - Saned N.N., Syria supported news network, Paris, posted May 2, 2013 9:38 PM. Intro, translated with Facebook/Bing and Google translate combined: Entry Shabiha (شبيحة) system to al-Bayda Adahmua (? ليداهموا) they break in army weapons storage was free of engagement (meaning no FSA?), and killed 30 Shabiha (شبيح) and Move to the National Hospital Banias. and killed 30 being annoying and concealed to Banias. hospital. Shabiha haotawa (? حاوطوا) and field executions and corpses on the road and in the news field executions women and children, on top of tank shelling on the neighborhood of Ras Rifah. Dozens of martyrs." (Note: Facebook/Bing once renders Shabiha (شبيح) as "being annoying and concealed.") --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Anyway, the given names:
 * 1) ابو احمد منيرة - Abu Ahmed Munira
 * 2) ياسر طه - Yasser Taha
 * 3) عمر نصرية الملقب عمر بياسي - Omar Nassiriyah aka/alias Omar Biassi
 * 4) محمد صافي طيبا  - Mohammed Safi Taiban (? translates net good)
 * 5) عبد القادر قدور والد محمد عليا وجميعهم استشهدوا حرقا - Abdul Qader/Abdelkader Udour (? translates pots) Walid Mohammed (? Mohammed's Father) high/graduated, and all of themwere killed by burning.
 * 6) زكريا الشاويش و زوجته منار البياسي  - Zakaria al-Shawish and his wife Manar Albiassi
 * 7) يوسف فتوح وشقيقه  - Joseph Fattouh and his brother
 * 8) معاذ طيبا - Maaz Daiouda/Tyba (? translates "good")
 * 9) صباح الشغري - Sabah al-Shehri/sbah alshghry

Better translation by Google:
 * Entry system شبيحة to egg Adahmua the store for the Army Corps of free Vtm engagement and killed 30 شبيح them and Move to the National Hospital Banias .. Shabeeha Haootooa egg and field executions and bodies road and news Baeidamat the field against women and children.
 * Tanks shelling on the neighborhood of Ras Rifah. The number of martyrs dozens.


 * Better in ways. I left in the funny translation being annoying and concealed. Okay, that's an improvement. That too is a typo, I decided. The last letter is their h in end-of-word form, so it's singular Shabih [sic] or Shabiha as I meant to/should have put. Egg is not exactly white, but is pronounced like Bayda (south of Homs, "East Egg," near Abel), so perhaps a typo, or this town is called the egg instead of the white, even though it is white, and rounded, like an egg. I say al-Bayda, since that's clearly what they mean. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Aljazeera Coastal
Aljazeera Coastal Facebook page publishes this massacre post on May 4, 2013.


 * Syria # Tartus # massacre # Banias - barbaric killings to bury the revolution


 * New Syrian regime covenant with massacres, and proved that he began to lose his temper with increasing blows directed by his rebels, Vktv its criminal that looked as if they had sectarian cleansing, he had begun in Homs, and supplemented with the massacres of Banias last for fighting a war with unarmed civilians where and punish them ugliest ways and means and the most criminal and brutal.


 * In the details of the massacres horrific, it started regime forces backed by large numbers of شبيحة and the inhabitants of the villages of the Alawite sect neighboring siege to the village of Bayda in the morning of Thursday, 05/02/2013 from all sides and the shelling is heavy artillery and tanks under the pretext of the presence of armed men which were recording the fall of twelve Ten resulted in a shell destroyed several homes and damaged the Great Mosque of the village, after forces stormed the village system and Hbihth the field and carried out executions with knives and bullets under sectarian motives against the Sunni population, which led to the deaths of dozens of martyrs, including entire families, and a lot of children and women


 * According to initial reports by testimonies of survivors of the massacre that the number of martyrs reached hundreds, we could not document all their names because of the inability Nashtina to enter the city and target villages and move freely, and that the roads and the main square and houses filled with corpses that have شبيحة system burned a large section of them, as well as to use machetes and sharp instruments varied in the killings and the presence of several heads smashed fully because of it, and in the meantime the districts of Banias exposed to heavy shelling from warships and regime forces stationed in the neighborhood of mansions were recorded killed 70 shell, destroyed several homes evacuated..


 * On Friday, 03/05/2013 forces completed the classes Mjazha burned many houses and land in the village of Baida while still remains of the martyrs and their bodies dumped in the streets and houses and the smell of death emanating from the place, and bombed the village groves Islam which led to the occurrence of the martyrs and the wounded, and launched a campaign of raids and mass arrests in the central city of Banias spread heavy snipers, and also cordoned off the top of the spring and shy head Rifah The بقصفهم has violently with heavy artillery and rocket launchers and mortars


 * And support groups shabeeha a formal regime forces attack, he stormed on Friday afternoon neighborhood of Ras spring after bombing the same systematic way in the village of al-Bayda followed and implemented long field executions of dozens, including women and children, knowing that there was not any significant resistance by gunmen


 * It is worth mentioning that the city of Banias and villages under full control of the system for more than a year and a half and experiencing situations humanitarian catastrophic amid a lack of hospitals and field shelters where, and witnessing always intimidation to secure them through continued shelling and gunfire and the spread of snipers, and the closure of all roads and suffocating siege made movement activists are very difficult to document these massacres and count the number of martyrs accurately.


 * According to the news about the crowds further strengthen the regime forces stationed in the city for the third day in a row, which confirms the continuation of the system in its military campaign on the city, which was one of the first areas responsive to the call of the revolution, which saw peaceful demonstrations, rallies chanted for freedom and toppling the regime carried out a population strikes in solidarity with the cities affected, It also was the first city to witness a women's sit-in to demand the release of detainees.


 * Taking forward the Local Coordination Committees in Syria deepest condolences to the families of victims of the massacre, it appeals to the actors in the international community and its organizations Alansansh and legal speed take action to stop the regime's crimes and protect civilians from the use of barbaric each means of killing and destruction links the national community by the regime's practices.

Promotion of this Research
I worked this research and some more, focusing on the Imam al-Biassi angle, and wrote an article Global Resarch didn't want, so I published it through the CIWCL site. "Targeting Specific Communities" in Syria, Case Study: The Baniyas Massacres --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I left a comment here summing it up and linking to it: Decolonize Your Brain: The massacres in Banias are crimes against humanity --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I was none too impressed with the response: "your condescending tone implies that you think the regime is incapable of brutality,” etc. Didn't know he's Palestinian, but that only scores you so many points. I wrote one more response, but he suddenly turned on comment moderation, so I saved the whole thing in case he disallows it (as it seems he means to) That would continues the discouraging trend suggesting another of the myriad fake anti-Imperialists shilling for regime change in Syria while pretending not to. You can't win a fact-based argument, so just shut it down and refuse it any way you can. If that's the case, I'll want to publish our discussion with a few notes somewhere to spite and expose the wormy little bugger. Wasted too much time there but I can't let be for zero. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:45, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Good, he posted my comment, plus the jab, to make me look rude, and called me a moron. Good stuff, if you want to kill a few minutes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:30, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Then, as if I'd hit a serious nerve, got all in a huff and went off with this stupid screed. He probably imagined it would devastate me. I said I wouldn't link it but what the heck. Worked out pretty good on my end to see him sputtering. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Then to Syria Comment: Do the Massacres in Bayda and Banyas Portend Ethnic Cleansing to Create an Alawite State? Joshua Landis, May 13. I submitted a detailed comment (would be #1,332), not approved yet, and also e-mailed it to Landis directly to make sure he saw it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)