Houla:Connecting The Dots


 * Why I started this --CE 10:10, 6 October 2012 (EST)
 * Butting in: Maybe my idea of the right use for a page like this is different, but I'll just add some stuff and see. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Many Bakkours
Like no other family name, Bakkour/Baqour/Bakur pops up like wild mushrooms on a cloudy day on the non-victim side of the Houla massacre. They're given as among those leading the alleged rebel attack on Taldou, those explaining to the media how it wasn't the rebels who did it, and since then being reported captured, injured, or dead in fighting with the government they blamed and whose supporters they slew. Death is always sad, but, hey ... and just who's who within the family and possibly guilty of what clearly matters, so ... Section suggested to lay out specifics. I'll start it soon if someone else doesn't first. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, I think we need a table here. --CE (talk) 10:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The Shabiha-Blaming Witnesses: How?
One more suggestion. This will puzzle people. We can show rebels conquering places just yards from massacre sites in the hours before the massacres. But, the witnesses... didn't they say...? Yes, they did, clearly. So... if the rebels did it, how did these people wind up saying otherwise? (open discussion) --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

- Now we have a powerful visual aid of those Shabiha-blaming Alawite survivors from a couple miles north in Aqrab. The world,pretty much, can now see they might well have been speaking under duress when they absolved their captors and blamed their co-religionists who'd been dubbed "Shabiha." My feeling is that some of the massacre witnesses seen on video really were that. They seem genuinely terrified. Only the details they give I don't trust, obviously. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, difficult question. Maybe the reason why we still have so few conclusions. It's not easy watching those people digging mass graves for their fellow villagers and then accuse them of making it up. And even Jalal and his buddies don't strike me as child slashers. Duress could be involved, but I also think there was some kind of false flag element to all of this, that some of the outside groups coming from Rastan etc literally "wore shia slogans on their foreheads" and chanting praises for Assad, and that the victims really didn't know who these people were. This would also explain the rebel defector story of "fighting against the government, yeah - murdering children, bye". And maybe "Shabiha" just isn't used there in the way the media uses it, which could add to explaining some testimonies. It's a tough nut to crack. --CE (talk) 11:38, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Revisiting the Rebel Defector
So I saw Petri open the Rebel attack page, and the Taldou page and now the Mainstreet page, and totally agree that we need better oversight to connect everything. So I thought I look if the timeline is complete, kind of missed the Rebel Defector, and went to visit that again. He gives no times (I suspect that's why he's only once on the timeline), but he gives a number of significant clues as to the scene, especially in combination with the video. I know I mentioned it early on to CL, but don't know if he has seen it and if Petri is even aware of it. I also only skimmed it once and couldn't make so much use of it as I hadn't as good a grasp of the place as I have now. Here is his complete testimony. As noticed there, in the video starting at 2m9s he (or Musin) shows the places he describes on a monitor with Google Maps. A few details I found interesting when I just reviewed it:
 * the gathering place from where they shot at the checkpoint at the clocktower is on the other side of the little river, from the side of the city center, where they had free sight of the control point on top of the baath party house slightly north of the roundabout.
 * while they distracted them, the real attack happened from the (road leading to the roundabout from) east, where somewhere must be a "tower".
 * a gathering place he describes is at Satto Road (from there comes the label on the German map), which is according to him not where the AbdulRazaqs live, and also not equal to main street, but the road leading to east from main street, south of the roundabout. Main Street/Satto Road could be the corner where Petri found the videos with the rebels (if so, from the Hassan-Clan) shooting down south main street.
 * Satto = Saad, I thought. He also specifies a Tripoli road, suggesting SW, like Saad. I had the feeling he meant Saad north, from the clocktower-ish area to the ring road. "al-Sad area which is known as Tripoli road..." I thought he said he was with that group, but apparently not, attacking detachments, Sayeds mentioned, so Main Street. --Caustic Logic 20:55, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * I think if you compare the transcript to what he shows in the video, it seems quite clear that he located Satto (al-Sad) and Tripoli like this. Tripoli road going west (to Lebanon) would make sense --CE 22:47, 6 October 2012 (EST)
 * At the picture's talk page, we will hash this out. Right? --Caustic Logic 22:57, 6 October 2012 (EST)
 * Exactly. --CE 09:00, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * another gathering place further down main street on Tripoli road (leading west), from where they attacked the military intelligence building, our defector was part of that mob.
 * AbdulRazaqs live (also?) in the northwest.
 * His claim, and it might be. --Caustic Logic 20:55, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * other interesting details
 * Names. --Caustic Logic 20:55, 6 October 2012 (EST)

And his description of the victims and their neighbours made much more sense now. Rings a bell?:


 * Very close to the house of the family of Al-Okba, the family of Al-Bakkur has a house, the brother of the family head is one of the most influential bandit chief in the region. Why did nothing happen to the family of Al-Hassan, where many family members belong to the bandits? Why do you think, were the families of Al-Said and Abdul Rasak completely murdered, while their respective neighbors – Al-Hassan and Al-Bakkur – have remained completely untouched?

Hmm, a Bakour family head, whose brother is an influential bandit chief, and the Al-Hassan clan also a friendly bandit neighbour (of the AbdulRazaqs?)... maybe a Hassan on a Major Jihad? ;o) --CE 10:04, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * Agreed, of course, that thedefector deserves more attention. He's a strong witness, with some details, but some vagueness and gaps, of course. The link from Hassan/Abu Firas and/or Jihad Hassan/Raslan to Hassan/Hallak is something I didn't thin about yet. Compelling... Some other points above. --Caustic Logic 20:55, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * I'm strolling around a little bit on wikimapia, looking for interesting labels. Taldou is full of labels. The house directly south of the little house we identified as the likely AbdulRasak home from the video has a label (edited two years ago) which translates to "Land Waddah Raslan" (ارض وضاح رسلان). Family Raslan from the Hassan clan? --CE 08:51, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Looking further around on wikimapia. The Defector says:
 * Larger units of rebels gathered on the Tripoli road that leads to water storage, more (units) also in the district Al-Nasiriyah, on the Satto-road and on the road that leads to the confectionery factory.
 * Found Al-Nasiriyah. Drive the 500E street from main street for a while and you'll hit the district with its square. So that makes this, Satto (240E) and Tripoli (550W) roads where they gathered to take over main street. Which makes it likely that 340E is "the road that leads to the confectionary factory". No label to be seen but there are two large buildings which could fit, one here and the other a corner west of it. --CE 11:14, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Hmmm... left the south ... nothing interesting in suspected Al-Shumariyeh. Crossed into city center. One of the rebel youtubers is "Monther Hrfosh (nontherful)". No exact match but close enough to mention: here (label too big, not exact), is (or was four years ago) "Munther Harmoush House and his brother Suhaib" --CE 11:44, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Ok, finished my round. There's next to nothing in the "Revolution Square" area - a school is labeled behind the fake clock tower if looking from the mass grave. A couple of more Harmoush family houses are labeled elsewhere. I'm now sure that the above mentioned house is from the youtube guy. It's either Jalal himself or a buddy (maybe the cameraman). Why i'm sure? I told you about how I found Ali's excursion - it was one of two favorites in Jalal's youtube profile. The other is a scene inside the city with heavy shelling/shooting going on, which I described as surreal. Uploaded and labeled late March. Had already planned to look for it on my trip, but on second look didn't had to look further, it is directly under/beside that label. Look here at "Munther Harmoush House and his brother Suhaib". See the water tower at the northern label border, slightly east of center? Go from there east to the little edge of the label there. It points at a corner house in a row of three or four, roughly north/south axis. Imagine standing there looking at the house-less area directly north of it. Meet Munther and Jalal. --CE 12:57, 7 October 2012 (EST)
 * The labels on Wikimapia are somehow skewed 30 meters east relative to the satellite image. Strange, es the roads only have a 10 meter skew. -- Petri Krohn 23:40, 7 October 2012 (EST)
 * Finally getting around to new things today. Before looking at the defector's clues, checked this. That's a big house alright. You go down the hall, past the master bedrooms, slight right at the water tower, and out the back door, and you're in that clearing NW of the house that this scene could have been filmed from. Some loyalist family home being blown up, I presume, possible inhabitant fleeing, neither chased down nor filmed, at 0:28. But that's a side-point, main thing as we have the location of these guys, whoever they are. --Caustic Logic 14:25, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * I also found the Al Arbad tomb and added the location to the Taldou page. The wikimapia label translates to "Tomb of Sahabi Galilee (Arabat Ben force). David is a". I suspect our rebel battalion is named after that local saint/important figure (they also show the tomb as some kind of logo in some videos) and "force/valid" is somehow part of his name (arabic عرباط بن ساريه). --CE 00:43, 8 October 2012 (EST)
 * Googled the arabic name - here's the wikipedia article, only existant in Arabic. Apparently an original companion of Mohammed who wrote up the prophet's words. --CE 00:50, 8 October 2012 (EST)