Talk:Halfaya Bakery Bombing

SOHR Coverage And ... Defection?
I didn't catch the SOHR original reports on this and the death toll they announced, but he/they say on Facebook, Dec. 24 (and in comments beneath), it was to claim around 60 killed. "We are consistent in our reporting, and honest in our findings. We said "reports of more than 60" yesterday, today we managed to verify 45, with 13 of those reported as nidentified still unverified. We do not inflate the atrocities occurring in Syria, what is actually happening on the ground suffices." Numbers from 100+ to "at least 300" were bandied about by others. I recall the Daraya massacre where a lady claiming like 1,200 were killed (to the usual range of 400-600-??) lamented "the fact that we Syrians have become just numbers was ripping me apart," but that the numbers she claimed were so large was supposed to help others feel torn up as well (that rebels did most of it was to be denied...). SOHR response to this more gross distortion:
 * We are sad to see the lives of our compatriots turning into numbers in human rights reports and fuel for media stories, with their inherent human value lost in the process.

They blame government jets still, based on activists saying, but we know which side was consuming that fuel. He's criticizing the opposition and the western media. More pointedly in another comment:
 * ..i was merely differentiating our reporting from other groups that abuse the situation on the ground for political goals.

Even further off message: I don't even need to bold "all" to highlight its significance. What opposition group urges the rebels to stop fighting?
 * The SOHR condemns this further atrocity committed by the Syrian regime, and calls on all responsible bodies to condemn the continuation of all violence in Syria. ... We demand that all parties be publicly pushed towards an immediate ceasefire, this should be called for by humanitarian organisations and states alike.

Even further off message, the SOHR has taken to using the Syrian national colors, not the rebel ones, in its posting. This isn't the poser SOHR, unless they've switched places. The one reporting stuff others cite as SOHR (as opposed to the Syrian Network for Human rights http://www.syriahr.org/) has the Facebook page with those colors right in the logo at top. Not sure when that changed, or if it's always been that way. At the official site http://www.syriahr.com/, one can see the version with the proper French colonial colors at top, but if one scrolls to the bottom ... well it's fixed now, but I took a screenshot a week or so ago. See below where I put them side-by-side, just in case the contrast wasn't clear enough.
 * Interesting. They have a poll there about the "new website" - maybe the web designer is an infiltrator? But the statements are interesting as well. Could be that they are trying to regain credibility with some journalists who finally realized what kind of outfit they are relying on. btw, I stumbled across a list of killed journalists. Useful, but notice the bias in the explanations. Pro-Western ones are always killed by something like "military officials", like Colvin, while Pro-Government ones are killed by "unknown fire", like Naser, and most often the explanation contains the old framing "government blames terrorists, but government blames everything on terrorists anyway". Disgusting to see organizations like this give up their neutrality. --CE (talk) 10:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Something odd with SyriaHR, .com and .org. My impression from both was the usual cheesiness, but a more careful study could be done of the things they've said and how, over time ... I won't be doing that anytime soon. I wonder if they were both infiltrators from the beginning, playing some clever game complete with a rift so it seems at least one is "legit" when neither is. Would be fascinating if so. Interesting journalist list. Mostly freelancers killed - aren't freelancers more likely to be really incisive and catch rebel crimes? I noted a few killed in Ras Al-Ain during the Turkish troubles there... --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Video-Based Assessment
This is a complex scene, with many videos, all similar and easy to confuse. There are ostensible de-bunks, but personally I think they're too hasty and in time we can do way better. But there is good reason to arrange a good list below for reference. I have a better list on file here I'll copy over. Points can be then cited for things like this:

Non-Combattant Victims?
(answer is yes -specifics will matter)

Bread and Baking Clues


Bread "planted," video C1 9:42 the stack it might have come from, video C1 0:23 the box the stack might have come from. C2 3:53

It's my opinion the bread planting doesn't mean a whole lot. I saw the still and knew it was a set-up scene-it didn't drift down like that after the explosion or anything. It was to make a point, and it worked of course. How good was the point? No proof it's a bakery. Bread was around - visibly, one box worth of flatbread, if that was the box. Hmmm...

Unsorted
No list yet, but no problem finding them. Several views, many re-posts, one main area. A few notes: some victims are blown-up badly, some body parts are about-a foot near blast center, a man from the chest up several yards away, etc. They are generally lined-up along the sidewalk as if waiting in line, perhaps. Perhaps all the dead seem to be men and maybe a few teenage boys. Some could be rebel fighters, but others might wear army uniforms. Some are in civilian clothes and seem too old and professional to be fighters either way. One man was wearing nothing but blue bikini briefs while waiting in line, it seems. Piled execution victims might explain part of this mess. Explosives cover other parts - the 4-foot hole in the street, parking spot, right by the sidewalk. Masonry all around, big chunks. A pile of dirt thrown up, half-burying some people. Interestingburn/chemical marks on the building's facade. No clear sign this was a bakery. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Main Scene
11:26 Published by Norasaman12, December 23, 2012. Trans: Hama Halfaya initial images of the massacre C1 Long video, uncut, starts with a rebel ending a radio call and leaving his pickup truck to film the scene. Ends well after all bodies scooped up, almost done by the halfway point. The role of the ambulance seems limited. Rebels insist on handling their own dead here, and some even attack the ambulance a little bit (6:26) Alternates: Syria part5 Assad MIG MASS MURDER of Bakery Breadline in Halfaya (bad glitch) 0:23 - a stack of flatbread can be seen 1:24 - Boy with upper head missing, another boy next to him gets up. 5:15- head and half-body in truck bed 6:26 – ambulance attacked 7:10-bits of bread? 7:35- videographers chased off? 9:26-pushed from the scene by an Islamist Laurel-and-Hardy-Cheech-and-Chong duo.
 * C1: ج1 ريف حماة حلفايا الصور الأولية للمجزرة 23-12-2012

4:04, uploaded by freesyria7, December 23, 2012 Trans: Halfaya massacre after the bombing of Flight HD Great resolution, starts at corner of main street. Flag nicely visible at 0:14. Nice view inside the building near the end, from 3:50 on. Nothing here that makes it an obvious bakery or obviously not one.
 * C2: ريف حماه | حلفايا | 23-12-2012| مجزرة حلفايا اثر قصف الطيران HD

8:23, by freesyria7, Dec. 23 Compilation: Rebel fighter speaking (before attack?), Rebels clearing the street and wailing after the clean-up (both short), then a long night scene with icky stuff – bodies laid out in front of some building – why? Bright lights do come in so we can see - don't watch lightly. One body is little more than a spine and pelvis. A boy is missing the top half of his head, etc. Finally, scenes of the alleged injured being treated. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * C3: HDريف حماه | حلفايا | 23-12-2012| حثث المجزرة و الجرحى

Trans: tens of martyrs in the Halfaya 18+ 3:39, published by almrsds, Dec. 23. Good views south of the area, used for flag still on main page. Okay resolution, good view of south approach, from south of the main street. 0:24 - Interesting emblem on car rear window – Syria with a black shape and perhaps crossed swords over it – picking up a piece of human remain 0:35 -man and woman being escorted away 0:38-camera-conscious rebel, khaffiyeh off
 * C4: عشرات الشهداء في حلفايا +18


 * C5: 18+ Syria pt4 Halfaya Bakery Shoppers Massacred in Assad MIG Bombing Attack on town 12-23-12 – Bodies laid on pickup truck, short video (0:36)
 * copy

There are a few others, but they might have to wait. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Other
See C3 above for a few peripheral scenes of interest.


 * The Halfaya and certificates massacre wounded for their observations
 * Alleged victims, wounded, in a clinic

Unincorporated Text Sources

 * Ansamed, Dec. 24: Syria: help us or wounded in bakery strike will die, doctor
 * "The wounded are lying on the ground because we don't have enough beds, the doctor, who goes by the pseudonym of Abu Ahmad, told ANSAmed via Skype. We can't sterilize our instruments. We need plasma bags and needles. A lot of these people are at risk of dying, but they could be saved. More than 60 wounded arrived at the Kfarnabuda hospital yesterday, the doctor said. But we could only take in 30 of them. We had to send the others to nearby villages, but they are in the same dire situation we are in. The Syrian Red Crescent, the doctor said, is not trustworthy. "Everyone in Syria knows it is run by men from the regime. How can we trust those who just bombed us to rescue us?"''
 * (note support for this- the ambulance is attacked at 6:26 in video C1)
 * Also on Monday, opposition Syrian National Coalition (SNC) leader Ahmad Muaz Khatib implicitly criticized UN and Arab League envoy Lakhdar Brahimi's silence on the civilian massacre at the Halfaya bakery. The Halfaya massacre was carried out not only by the Syrian regime, but also by whoever avoids talking about it. Whoever remains silent is an accomplice of those feeding on Syrian blood, Khatimi said.


 * Naharnet "Syria State Media Says 'Terrorists' behind Halfaya Carnage" Dec. 24
 * A "terrorist" group attacked the rebel-held town of Halfaya in central Syria killing women and children, news agency SANA said on Monday, rebuffing claims the deaths were a result of a regime air strike.
 * SANA, the official news agency, however gave a vastly different account, citing residents of the town located in the central province of Hama. "An armed terrorist group attacked the town of Halfaya committing crimes against the population, killing many women and children," it said. 'The report added that the Syrian army intervened during the assault and "killed and wounded many terrorists", a term officials and state media use to refer to rebels fighting to oust the Damascus regime.''
 * "Terrorists then shot video images to accuse the Syrian army when the international envoy Lakhdar Brahimi arrived in Syria," the agency said.
 * So perhaps this was their strike, and the killing they cite came earlier. This would mean they did kill the small number of civilians the rebels had mixed in among them. And perhaps their strikes were elsewhere and this one was a false-flag operation. But that could have been set-up better, with more civilians arranged and less fighters. This case remains not too clear one way or the other. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So perhaps this was their strike, and the killing they cite came earlier. This would mean they did kill the small number of civilians the rebels had mixed in among them. And perhaps their strikes were elsewhere and this one was a false-flag operation. But that could have been set-up better, with more civilians arranged and less fighters. This case remains not too clear one way or the other. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

* Reuters (incorporated)
 * Al-Arabiya 1
 * Al-Arabiya 2
 * Juan Cole "200 Dead"
 * NYT 1
 * NYT 2
 * Taking Suggestions

Video

 * One video: No clear sign it's a bakery except of course the blood-free tortilla (flatbread, whatever) seen being scooped up from, or dropped on, a pool of blood in some photos I saw around. Definitely being dropped in this video. Fake Bakery Massacre in Halfaya Actually a Successful Strike on Terrorists. Not so sure that conclusion is right, but the bread fakery is interesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:56, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * debunk
 * Halfaya - lied and quackery: a den of terrorists or "oven" for baking?
 * Army operation targeting Syrian Arab terrorists - Halfaya
 * Halfaya: See how This Aeraour puts bread to complete the play
 * Massacre Hlvaip and exploitation of bread to mislead

Urs
As I posted on the forum - Urs did the job already. Fake as can be. Planted bread. See here. Also already an article based on her research here. There's a good chance that syrianews.cc will translate it soon, they have done so with a couple of articles from that blog. Heading for "the woods" in a couple of minutes, cya. --CE (talk) 14:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Merry times, CE! I'll be working through today still, catch it when you get back.--Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And as I said there, I'll start with second-guessing. I'll agree the dead are mostly rebels and hardcore Khaffiyeh-wearing ones from many countries. But the rest... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I hadn't looked very closely and frankly I'm not planing to do so. There's a follow-up here. She found photos uploaded to facebook before the event, showing some of the rubble and an already existing hole in the ground. --CE (talk) 14:26, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be interesting. I'm looking now ... I don't get it. A rusty unexploded barrel bomb? Trans: Martyrs Battalion freedom planting mines p international road. Not clear it's the same place even, Halfaya not specified, scenery inconclusive. And a screenshot of a different building with some rubble? Don't see the relation to hausnummer 22. It's similar but not the same. The hole in the street looks different too. If it's the same place as the photo, it's irrelevant here. Urs has done some great stuff, but here ... am I missing something? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Compared to this is not even very similar, really. If someone said that's from Halfaya on the 23rd (did they?), it must be another part. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:28, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, she kind of did although the article is a bit confusing. Can't see how that facebook album has anything to do with the scene - it seems she makes the connection over one of the guys seen in the "bread" video who is also seen in the bomb-carrying video and owns the facebook account. Maybe she needs a break - she announced to intend to do that a while ago but never did. But maybe i'm missing something. I myself decided to break with the gory stuff until the new year, so i'll have to leave you alone with that topic ftm. --CE (talk) 10:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

From Facebook
This was posted on Facebook:


 * First of all, this is full version of video filmed by FSA members after explosion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SD4rO4E8KNM. The media and "activists" claim that 60, 90 and even 300 people were killed by "air strike", including children and women (I saw only one injured woman on video). All the victims are men and some of them in camouflage. And now look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey2yNvh6sAA&feature=youtu.be.


 * Member of FSA gangs throws the bread in a pool of blood with words "On the blood, on the blood!". On the right picture you can see how they film this moment. Why? Look at left picture and on the building on the video. The explosion occurred inside the building and roof of the building is almost not affected. Air strike without a crater of the explosion and without affected roof?


 * And now compare all the information. UN representative Brahimi's visit in Syria (as usual "massacres" occur day before meeting on Syria in UN or a visit in Syria), explosion and "hysterics" in media. According to information from Halfaya, this time one of FSA brigade used dead bodies of another armed group with whom they had some "disagreements" for next "massacre" in media. One armed group placed explosive device in or near a building (a bakery) where members of other group gathered and blew it up. This is why they throw the bread in a pool of blood - just for pictures in media.


 * Hey, quick return, and Merry not-Christmas anymore! My analysis (forthcoming) disagrees with the above. The hit appears to be from a distance, perpendicular to building face, making the small crater iun the street and plowing the dirt forward. Building damage is limited, except to the metal shutters nearest the hit, crumpled up inside. In fact, it looks like a rocket or artillery strike, as alleged (along with other things that aren't supported - like 100-300 dead, for one) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Car Bombing False Lead
A side-note on the screen-grab used up-front: that was as it appeared shortly before 4:52, 24 December 2012. When I checked later, the video freeze-frame is different. I didn't watch the video either time to see if it had changed, or just the still. Just in case it might be of significance, I've noted it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Another: It's not up-front. It's unrelated. Here it is, FWIW:

One useful clue as to the initial explosion, before the rocket and artillery attacks, is this screen grab of the CNN story with the video still as it first appeared before hitting play: One of the bombs dropped by the alleged warplanes apparently landed right in the trunk of this car. It's all aflame, its back end blow up and off its axle.

The video was an earlier one app. containing other scenes mixed-in. The one there now has no such scene, and no videos of the aftermath have such a scene. The one shown seems to be this Damascus car bombing, Dec. 22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2T1bZ5Z-k