Talk:Aqrab Massacre

Video of Survivors
Most of these are specified as happening in Al-Houla, all on Dec. 11, most posted same day. I'm trying to get a tally of survivors, age, gender, condition, etc. First, the less famous ones (those besides the famous Mohammed Judl/whatever and the big lady, Umm Ayham, clearly blaming Shabiha).

Published Dec. 14. Trans: Scorpion scenes shown for the first time during the rescue civilians wounded children carried by activists, aww, an old woman battered and bloody, looking like a monster - lighting says early-mid morning, cloudy) --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:37, 17 December 2012 (UTC) :: That's from Jalal, it's already in the video timeline below, uploaded Dec 14. Still didn't come around to watch them all to get a bigger picture - and will stay busy at least until tomorrow. --CE (talk) 14:53, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxAKls_RQ6w
 * I thought the title sounded vaguely familiar - second time seen at least, by now. Might as well discuss it here too. I didn't see anything that could set the locale. I'll look at it soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Most others from the lists under "An Alawite family being cared for at a field hospital after a group of Alawite shabiha thugs shot at them after disobeying them in Aqrab village Hula ... Children from an Alawite family being cared for at a field hospital in al-Houla ... An FSA commander in al-Houla promises to care for the wounded children ... etc." from here

trans: 12/11/2012 Alawite sect children in Hula
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7l3jyovsAw
 * Frightened boy, teenage (15-ish?): is this the same famous Mohammed, or just pretty similar looking? Injury to groin area. Smoke stains on hands?
 * Young baby with a light head injury seen, another bandaged, seems okay. Fighters looking like old biker meth heads.

Trans: Very dangerous Shabiha killed trying to escape from the Alawite sect Homs Hula 11 12 2012
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQQJlrhZ-Dc
 * Frightened boy from above? White turtleneck shirt. Looks frightened, trying to explain something. Long conversation makes him a likely candidate for the kid quoted by NYT as saying "Man, so what if I was in the Alawite sect?" Burned-looking legs shown, holes in right leg, back calf, back upper/inner thigh. Left leg, apparently shot/shelled as well. Here ... that makes him a dangerous Shabiha who is dead? Some confusion there...

Frightened boy, face-down, “surgery” (from still, didn't watch)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNFW_Z5c_9U

"A 4-year-old child who was wounded in an attack by shabiha thugs with hand grenades, as they meant to kill the Alawite family and blame the FSA" Trans: Hula very small child from the Alawite sect 12/11/2012
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdl6zFNd8I
 * The tyke seems kind of dead. No clear movement, large hole in the left side of his head, some blood elsewhere. Surgery is being done, but it seems unlikely his brain is intact anyway.
 * To the side, sleepy boy (okay nickname?), I think... young teenager, 13/14 or so, injured only in right/back, bandaged, draining tube, poss.abrasion on right side of face. Later seen next to the famous Mohammed, covered in a black and white jacket.

Hula 12/11/2012 trying to reassure children Alawites
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWmpiu1t1c
 * By the jacket, sleepy boy. Reassuring consists of the long-haired rebel leader touching his shoulder a lot while preaching to the camera.


 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4DBBjRi7qY

Trans: Testimony of a woman survivor of the massacre of scorpion 12/11/2012
 * Middle-aged/older woman, injured, smoke inhalation judging from her nostrils.

Context: December 2nd battle
The Jalal Solomon YouTube channel has uploaded a large number of videos of some December 6th battle. Some of the same videos are linked on this Facebook page. The videos show the Houla Scorpion Brigade taking over some nearby town.


 * This is amazing, by the way, Petri. I'm out of time now and might never quite absorb all of this, but I'll scan soon. The big gap up to and including the massacre is of course what I'd most like to see. Why in the days preceding this event did fighting and filming cease, as if someone were preparing for something? And why are the key events themselves (apparently?) included entirely in the blank spot? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

YouTube playlist: Aqrab Massacre.

December 2nd
Attack on government security HQ / checkpoint just outside Aqrab, next to what may by the local Baath party office. The location is on the road leading east north-east, over the bridge. Google Maps Wikimapia also has the marked by a small triangle. The text reads "تمركز الدبابات الحاجز الشرقي (Aqrab) حاجز للجيش والشبيحه", which Google translates to "Stationing tanks eastern barrier (Aqrab) An army checkpoint and Shabiha" – or with little tweaking – to "Tanks stationed at the eastern checkpoint".


 * Hula saw what happens بعقرب 3-12. – Jalal filming the battle from a distance, 10:43 am, December 2.
 * Hula interview with one of the survivors who came out of the scorpion 3 12 – Jalil Suleiman interviewing
 * Hula saw a scorpion battle full 2 ​​12 – Armed mob attacks security HQ.
 * Hula free control of the army on one of the barriers 2-12 – Jalil leads the mob
 * Video 0024 – Rebels drive away one BMP, enter HQ. Some incoming fire still seems to be coming from somewhere, possibly school building next door.
 * Video 0025 – Rebels celebrate capture of HQ. Inside views of building show plenty of blood, possible executions.
 * Hula clashes continue in the vicinity of the barrier 3-12. – HQ building set alight.


 * Uploaded December 6th:
 * Hula Martyrs Brigade adopt liberalization barrier بعقرب – Burnt-out building with bullet marks around windows, telecom equipment inside. Possible location, same crossroads.
 * Hula Scorpion Brigade dignity of all كتائبه Yun barrier scorpion – Baath party headquarters taken over, APC destroyed.
 * Hula Revolutionary Council adopts destroy the barrier scorpion. – More men outside, Eric the red.
 * Hula battalion sniper Mohammed Saheb Alasakr during the fight – Same battle, rebel snipers with FN_FAL and M-16 rifles. Security HQ with evidently new telecommunications tower seen from window accross river. (Note, how rebels take over Allawite living room.)
 * Mohammed Saheb battalion catch just intrusion Alasakr before – same living room.
 * Hula sidekick battalion snipers working cover for Mguethmin. – sidekick battalion? Mguethmin evidently means "peaceful protester".
 * Hula sidekick battalion snipers how they work to cover a scorpion.
 * Hula Mohammed Saheb battalion stormed barrier بعقرب.
 * Hula Martyrs Brigade adopt liberalization barrier – "Barrier" seems to be an APC or tank, i.e. Hula Martyrs Brigade "liberate" an APC.
 * Hula one hand free army vehicles 7-12 – Burnt-out police APC, seems to be outside same post / telecom office. – Suleiman is wearing same Ferrari shirt as on "survivor" video.


 * Tank taken to Houla
 * Hula seize tank tracked 02/12/2012 – Seize the Free Army tank tracked after storming the village checkpoint scorpion
 * Hula - 02-12-2012 - thus motivating men to withdraw tanks – Tractor pulls captured BMP over bridge on main road to Kafr Laha in the next village up north. (Google Maps) Is this place called Tell Dahab?
 * Hula spoils Free Army checkpoint scorpion 2-12.
 * Hula saw the spoils of the Free Army 3-12.
 * Hula 02/12/2012 seize armored scorpion barrier – Houla rebels have captured a BMP. (Via hassan husein)


 * 2 12 Al Hoole Homs Ugarit Houle Homs, battalion commander Farouk in barrier scorpion battle
 * Hula bombs thrown at the city Hula 12/02/2012 – via Hula proud – This "cluster bombs" are in fact fin-stabilised anti-armour bomblets of type PTAB-2.5M. (More here)

December 3rd

 * Funerals
 * Hula funeral of the martyrs who were killed by the clashes.


 * People fleeing
 * Hula saw how people migrate for fear of shelling 3-12. – Women in truck and walking from Aqrab towards Houla. Location is here in Google Maps.
 * Hula saw how people fleeing for fear of bombardment 3 12
 * Hula displaced people Khovamn aircraft bombed 12-12 – Giant power plant in background – WOW, this is huge: AL-ZARA Thermal Power Plant
 * For future use: The 150 m high chimneys are projected as 198 m ground distance on the tilted satellite image now used by Google Maps. This helps in calculating the height of minarets etc.
 * Great. Was looking for it as well but didn't look THAT far away. It's almost in Rastan. Huge indeed. Finished in 2001. The main building of the school in Akrad Ibrahim was build after 2004. Every little village there has at least one school of that type. People in most parts of the world could only dream of such an infrastructure development. And now? Allahu Akbar! :o( --CE (talk) 14:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Cool. It's as big as all of Aqreb, and yeah, just north of Rastan. From the video, we can say which town this is - Aqrab or Akrab/d Ibrahim. It's Aqrab, I think, by how the thinner back stacks line up between the southern big stacks, instead of more between the northern two. Right? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:18, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * More bombing?
 * Hula Free Army is preparing to address the aircraft 3-12.
 * Hula scorpion shell of the aircraft did not explode viewed 6-12.
 * Hula mass undescribable village scorpion the shelling 6-12.
 * Hula scorpion more destruction as a result of drums 6-12.
 * Scorpion destroy field hospital by aircraft 6-12. – This "field hospital" evidently offered the services of a gynecologist and a dentist.

December 6th

 * Hula Scorpion Army free cleanses scorpion and the barrier. – armed men at crossroad outside village. Location: just outside Aqrab, on the road leading east north-east, over the bridge, in front of school. (One rebel is fielding an Austrian Steyr AUG bullpup rifle. Where do the Houla rebels get all this 5.56×45mm NATO ammo?)
 * Saw how Atmn expatriates to their families 6-12. – Happy rebels somewhere
 * Scorpion saw the devastation and dialogue with the owners of the destroyed houses 6-12. – Same rebels, angry woman
 * Hula Scorpion destruction shelling 7-12 – Suleiman tours totally destroyed building with shell / RGB remains.

December 10th
Thanks for these, CE. RC visit incorporated up front now. The Islamist ambush/IED video, creepy at least, perhaps related. Area unclear. I have a location ID on the last, fairly sure. dead-centered here on Google Maps, view to the north. The left side of the street isn't a clear match, but there's foreshortening and the right side is right on - red building and features, wall, outbuilding, foreground rocks and shrubs at the bend (no need to re-watch and double-check). According to GM, this is barely inside city limits, on the entrance from Al-Houla. Not much of a guard if that's what he was, and Houla rebels were supposed to be in charge by then. I cannot say what would leave his head/face skin all hanging like that, but I don't think it was guns. There's a big splash of blood up the wall behind him - upward stroke from a close-range sharp weapon is my guess, right-handed assailant approached from about the cameraman's direction here. Probably not the weapon, but something metal in a pair, garden shears perhaps, seem to be weighing down the blanket to keep it from blowing away. They're not bloody shears, if so. He apparently wasn't covered before they do so here. The blanket immediately soaks through with his blood. He was killed very shortly before this rebel video. All bad signs. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * (10-12-12) Al-Houle | FSA Ambushes Regime Forces --CE (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Red Crescent in Aqrab upload Dec 10 by Amr Faour --CE (talk) 16:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hula martyr Ahmed Daoud the moment of his death sitting on a chair in front of a house - head is completely devastated. Looks like drive-by shooting with a pretty nasty weapon. GRAPHIC! uploaded by Amr Faour --CE (talk) 16:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

December 11th
Massacre?
 * Massacre in hand and some survivors certificate 11-12
 * Some of the injured from the scorpion shelling 11-12
 * Scorpion some martyrs who Akharjnahm 11-12
 * Hula - scorpion 10/11/2012 martyrdom of Sheikh Ali age. via hassan husein (his only video of Dec 11). Shows dead guy - Sheikh Ali was mentioned in the Akrad Ibrahim facebook message as contact person in Aqrab.

December 12th
both via hassan husein --CE (talk) 13:18, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hula - Scorpion raised mass in the town. 10min video showing destroyed buildings - unclear if Houla or Aqrab
 * Hula 12.12.2012 Free Army prepares to face the Shabiha in hand. Wahhabi types back in Houla, preparing for more
 * Valor martyr Ahmed Mohammad Mujahid in battle Checkpoint battle from a different perspective on a rooftop - uploaded by AlHula, Dec 12 --CE (talk) 16:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

uploaded December 14th ff (by Jalal)

 * Scorpion scenes shown for the first time during the rescue civilians Injured child and old woman surrounded by a bunch of fighters - still no mass casualties seen anywhere
 * Note: Added up-front. Does that old lady look to anyone else a little like someone from the lesser rubble of a blown-up building? I noted that up-front, but it was premature. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * About 80% of the people seen in the video are armed rebels. Not a healthy place for a small child or the old woman. Armed men act as shrapnel magnets, drawing in artillery fire. It may be, that these civilians are in fact hostages (or human shields). I see no other reason for them to stay in the vicinity of the fighters. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hula scorpion Free Army during ligament in village-In. Aqrab. The prayer leader is our friend "not-Jihad Raslan" (Main Street in Aqrab.)
 * A field trip within barrier proudly showing us around at checkpoint, uploaded Dec 16 (Timestamp on video shows 04.01.2013. The calender is 1 month ahead. This should be December 5. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC) )

Other News Reports

 * Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi, Middle East Forum / Jeruslaem Post, Dec. 27: What Happened in Aqrab, Syria?
 * uncertainty still remains as to what happened in Aqrab. ... (initial stories vs. Thomson's report) ... The rebels supposedly wished to use the Alawites as human shields in the nearby town of Houla, which was the site of the massacre of 108 Sunni civilians by shabiha. ... Before assessing the validity of Thomson's account, it should first be noted that those who wish to malign him as having an axe to grind are wrong. Thomson has simply reported what his interviewees told him, and nothing more.
 * ''However, it is apparent that Thomson's account of the events in Aqrab is not the first of its kind. At the same time as the New York Times report came out, the pro-regime propaganda site SyriaTruth, which has previously purported to expose me as an Israeli spy in Iraqi Kurdistan, released a 'preliminary' article -- drawing on information 'exclusive' to SyriaTruth -- that matches a number of details in Thomson's report. For example, one of Thomson's witnesses claims that the rebels who took the Alawites hostage were not Syrian Arabs. SyriaTruth's purported sources claim the same thing, identifying them as 500 men of Turkmen, Lebanese, other Arab and non-Arab origin. Both accounts also identify the fighters as being from Houla (SyriaTruth does not mention Rastan).'
 * (matches are seen as supicious)
 * Crucially, however, SyriaTruth goes further in vouching for the existence of a massacre, giving a figure of 180-210 Alawites killed, along with some 20 Sunnis who tried to defend them from the rebel attack on Aqrab. Another pro-regime site -- Shukumaku, which is much less widely read than SyriaTruth -- in a report on 12 December, puts the total number of those massacred at 235, among them 88 women and children (SyriaTruth gives a figure of roughly 90). Like SyriaTruth, Shukumaku claims the attack was the work of foreign militants, of the 'takfiri' type.
 * (Shukumaku would be the source perhaps for Presna Latina's report)
 * Yet as Thomson noted in a subsequent blog post at Channel 4, neither side has produced any strong evidence for the existence of a massacre in Aqrab.
 * (or aginst, for that matter... and it was the rebels who claimed a massacre so dramatically and THEY clearly lied, because the house is standing.
 * On balance, therefore, it seems more likely that Aqrab was a case of a mass hostage taking of Alawites by the rebels, rather than the shabiha. However, it is unlikely the perpetrators were foreign jihadists, and there is no decisive evidence that attests to there being an actual massacre, but the hostage crisis probably prompted all of Aqrab's Alawites to flee.
 * (so both sides are lying, apparently and we'll never know what happened to the missing people and quit supporting the "regime"!)


 * Syria Truth (as cited above, Arabic - will require translating)
 * Shukumaku report cited above, Arabic
 * Telegraph: Syria: explosions kill scores in Alawite villages
 * Daily Star (Lebanon): [Up to 200 casualties in Alawite village assault (Reuters) http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Dec-11/198100-bombings-in-syria-alawite-village-leave-125-victims-ngo.ashx]
 * Reuters: [Syrian Alawite village attacked, rebels fight around capital http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8AJ1FK20121211]
 * ''There were no reports on Syria's state media....
 * An Alawite resident of a nearby village said the violence began in Aqrab when rebels attacked a checkpoint run by pro-Assad militiamen, known as shabbiha. "We don't believe there was a massacre but we think there are a number of hostages being held. Clashes began when rebels started shelling the shabbiha checkpoint," he said by Skype. "But now the phone lines seem to be down in Aqrab so that's all we know."
 * A rebel who said he fought in Aqrab told Reuters that fighters had surrounded a house with more than 200 people because shabbiha were there. The militiamen had used women and children as human shields and the house had been shelled by Assad's forces, he said, without explaining why they would attack their own side.
 * Wounded children, apparently Alawites from Aqrab, appeared at an opposition field hospital in the nearby town of al-Houla, where they were interviewed by rebels in videos published on YouTube. Three young boys gave a similar account as the rebel, but did not say whether they were hiding in the house fearing government shelling or rebel attack.
 * "We were inside the house with shabbiha, they said they were protecting us from the rebels. The rebels started telling us come out, no one will hurt you. The shabbiha wouldn't let us leave," said Mohamed Judl, a young boy covered in a blanket, shivering as he was interviewed by an activist at the clinic. It was not clear whether the boy was speaking freely.


 * Reuters (variant): Up to 200 hurt in attack on Syrian Alawite village - activists
 * Others in the opposition blamed Assad's forces for the attack, which they said involved the shelling of a house in which at least 200 Alawites were hiding.
 * A rebel who spoke to Reuters by telephone said fighters had clashed for four days with the army in Aqrab, some 30 km (20 miles) north of Syria's third city of Homs. Rebels had surrounded one building and accused pro-Assad militias, known as shabbiha, of using residents hiding there as human shields.
 * "There were 200 people inside and we called on the residents to leave, but the shabbiha held some women and children by gunpoint. Eventually talks fell apart and the government shelled the building," said the rebel, who called himself Maysar.


 * Relief Web (AFP): 125 victims in Syria Alawite district violence: NGO
 * BBC: 'Alawite civilians killed' in Syria village
 * This video has Thomson's report and after it starting at around 6:30 a report from Lebanese Al-Mayadeen TV interviewing refugees in surrounding villages. English translation. Details on negotiations. Got no time to add to article now, but should get. --CE (talk) 01:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Timeline
Timeline of reports Al Jazeera reported on what almost surely must be this story in a tweet of 9:51 AM (someone's time) on Dec. 11, as translated, "147 people have been killed in Homs today, most in the town of Aqrab." Then at 21:30 whoever's time, 12 hours later, they passed on this: "Al Jazeera's Rula Amin, reporting from Beirut, said that though the explosions have not been independently verified, 125 people have reportedly been injured or killed on Tuesday. "It's a remote area and it's late in the night," she said." And then sometime on that day, the series of tweets by Amin gathered at Enduring America, "that tell a confused tale from her own sources." By these, the LCC was confirming the attack, as EA said they never did, and their site doesn't confirm it.
 * Initial reports from opposition groups said it was due to govt shelling,yet most of those killed incl women and children r Allawites #Syria
 * LCC says 6 killed in #Aqrab,Hama...due to govt shelling, other activist say a car bomb exploded in #Aqrab killing at least 78 people #Syria
 * Now LCC says the pro govt shabiha had taken about 300 people hostage to protect themselves from an imminent attack from the FSA #syria
 * later they killed some 6 people who were trying to mediate the release of hostages and attacked the hostages #Syria
 * (the same six already listed as killed by shelling?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Why no Videos of the Dead?
As widely cited, and used to dismiss the whole massacre, there is no video proof of these 150-200+ dead women and children. The bodies would not all be out of reach, eben if there really was rubble involved. All the survivors we've been hearing about were taken into care and trucked to Al-Houla. The rebels always blame the government and always show the bloody proof. so if there is none... One reasonable explanation is because there were no bodies. I'm not totally convinced it happened, and not yet clear how badly no massacre contradicts the alleged witnesses (it contradicts the rebel fighters and numerous people telling the SOHR different versions of how they all died). However, what if there were bodies, either not filmed or the videos somehow held back. It's posible, but unusual. Why in this case? The reason would be clear; it's the worst-looking massacre yet for them. Would you want dead baby pictures attached to a crime it looks like you did? No. So would the lack of video then suggest they don't believe their own story? Or just the frame-up was expected to be effective enough it wouldn't be wise to add to the emotion this time? Or, was there simply no such event? Why were local rebels saying there was, but the LCC refusingto corroborate? Etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry if this is redundant, but I followed the link on some Dec. 10 building damage videos (posted at Enduring America) to this channel. Aqrapa. Seems to be a local, filming daily: damage and dead people Dec. 8, nothing Dec. 9, damage Dec. 10 and Dec. 12, nothing filmed at all for the dramatic events of Dec. 11, and no dead seen after the 8th. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Akrad Ibrahim

 * Prensa Latina Syrian Residents Blame Mercenaries for the Massacre in Akrab Town
 * The massacre did not happen in Akrab, but in Akrad Ibrahim village, about five kilometers away. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Where did Thomson go then? Will follow up on this - so far that's the odd man out. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This page says that Akrad Ibrahim is located at 34° 58' 0" North, 36° 27' 0" East – five kilometers north of Akrab. There is nothing at that spot, but there is a small village 2,5 km north of Akrab. In two videos we see people pointing that way. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Prensa Latina says: Arab mercenaries of various nationalities took control of the Syrian Army checkpoint a week ago, located between Akrab and Houla. The checkpoint is in fact between Akrab and Akrad Ibrahim village. It may be, that Akrab is Sunni and has been in opposition hands for some time. The geography is similar to other parts of Houla. Allawite villages on the hills look different. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:39, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Akrad Ibrahim (أكراد ابراهيم, translated back to "Kurdish Ibrahim") on wikimapia. That's a fascinating article from Prensa Latina. There's one very dominant building in that little spot (don't even have to describe where, I guess), and it looks very much like a school. --CE (talk) 15:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I finally figured out how to access and copy Arabic language place names on Google Earth: Here is the link. You are right about the translation. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Searching for the Arabic name on google brought me to this facebook announcement from the "Hama Coordinators Union". Auto-translate shows that it's from Dec 9, talking of "gangs of Arabs" (likely meaning non-Syrians) who are looting and abducting in and/or west of the (in quotes) "Kurdish" village of Sunni majority and Kurdish minority. No mention of Alawites. They expect a massacre somehow: "We ask all press full speed before the massacre against our shows and our brothers and children in the besieged village of Kurds Ibrahim left villages in support of al-Asadi of the offender" Maybe something like "we ask our brothers and sisters in villages supporting Assad to leave before the offenders show up and do like they did in Akrad Ibrahim"? --CE (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * WTF, the above was what "microsofttranslator.com" made of that text. Ran it through Google Translate and that gives "Gangs of Arabs" as "Shabiha Gangs"! Very strange. The last sentence now sounds like the upper villages surrounding Akrad Ibrahim are Assad supporters and the announcement calls for help against them (and the guys from Houla following the call?)
 * Note that the village of "Kurds Ibrahim" top-majority Sunni and Kurdish minority is located north of the village of scorpion 7 km and is surrounded by the upper villages following: "Qvelon - Humairi - short Der encompassed - Crdoman - Baran ..."That stand with Asadi system in killings, kidnappings and we Alchbih from everyone spreading the word as quickly as before for massacre against Oaradhana and our brothers and our children in the village of Kurdish Ibrahim besieged villages upper supporting Asadi criminal system.
 * Great, now we even have politicized auto-translators telling different stories... ;o) --CE (talk) 16:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Another mentioning in a post on a Qatari forum from Dec 10 - Same names as in the facebook message announced as kidnapped: Families of Mohammad Najjar and Ahmed Najjar, apparently by Alawites, or they are Alawites themselves. Calls for help - and to inform international media, Sheikh Ali in Aqrab can confirm the news - to prevent a massacre. --CE (talk) 17:15, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I am starting to think Aqrab may be mainly Sunni and may have been in "opposition" hands for some time – except of course for the checkpoint outside town. Jalal's video, Hula saw a scorpion battle full 2 ​​12 does not show any fighting in the town itself. Also, looking at Google maps, Aqrab is typical lowland Sunni land, different from the rocky highlands of Akrad Ibrahim. Sunnis seem to practice open field farming whereas the Allawites have closed fields. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Belated comments. This is an interesting angle. The PL report has numbers of dead, implication it was mostly the men (other things suggest that), a different scene, a different building that maybe was blown up. There's the Kurdish link in the town name and the prisoners, so I didn't yet give that its due in "location" up-front. Their sources said rebels did it and it was blown up. One of Thomson's witnesses did. The second town might hold the missing link, depending. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:02, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Looks like I got this part right! Quoting Alex Thomson: "A low-rise, densely packed town of 9,000 Sunni and 2,000 Alawites." -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Official Response
CE says, and thanks:
 * SANA has a rudimentary item today saying (in total) "A military source in the Central Region on Wednesday denied news claiming that a massacre took place in Aqrab in Hama countryside.". The guy from SyrPer also claims it's completely made up. documents.sy only quotes an "Al Hatay" newspaper based in London citing other news outlets.

It's my opinion that that statement of nothing to see is suspiciously terse. It's been said this was a regime crime meant to frame the FSA, and they're trying to say nothing at all (except suspicious denials?) that could be seen as propaganda, accusing "terroists" of anything. (BTW I've long felt they should change over to "activists." "Despite what they say, it was the armed activists who today stormed a pre-school with machetes..."). There's too much saying this happened, and I can't see why the rebels would fake THAT. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Syrian Perspectives might know people who know the line and he then toes it. The line may well change within a few days, and it may not. Reading it, he might just be inferring from the fake witnesses (plus the official denial, of course), that everything is fake, as he pretty much says. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to imply that there is necessarily weight to what he says, but he's kind of "official" in some weird way. Reminds me of good old comical Ali sometimes, although he may be closer to the truth sometimes. Half the time for sure he's bullshitting or trolling (demanding that Assad finally blows up those Dams in Turkey n'stuff). And as you predicted he already changed his line - latest piece is far from "everything fake". But likely equally useless. --CE (talk) 23:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * [cut Akrad Ibrahim discussion from here --CE (talk) 17:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)]

We also need to consider how hoarse the Syrians have gotten saying the same thing so many times. Every time little kids get massacred and rebels hold all the evidence, everyone waits for the silly part where "the regime" blames"terrorists." For once, it's this clear what happened. There might be a softpower to saying, basically, "hey, you guys figure it out. Whaddyou think?" That's not quite compatible with "there was no massacre." That's more like passive agressive reverse-psychology. "Alawites, never happier! We're all good, thanks! (a******s)"--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Antiwar.com: Hundreds Reported Slain in Attack on Syrian Alawite Village -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:20, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * NYT: Members of Assad’s Sect Blamed in Syria Killings Links to a video the BBC shot of the boy seems to be from. AlHoula Samer. --CE (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Same video with english language description...
 * Eyewitness testimony of what happened in Aqrab, Hama on Tuesday December 11th, 2012: The"FSA" surrounded a building belonging to regime loyalists in Aqrab village, which was occupied by regime forces who had taken women and children (mostly Allawite) captive to use them as human shields to protect themselves from attack by the FSA. After this, a group of eight senior figures in the village, including Sheikh Ali Al-Omar Sheikh Saa'do Hamash and retired Colonel Shaker Akkash went to negotiate the release of the women and children, and to ask the regime forces to turn themselves in, promising their safety. These community leaders were kidnapped, however, in an attempt to pressurisee the FSA, which retreated from the building as instructed. Immediately after this, the regime shabiha killed all eight of the negotiators and fled, throwing hand grenades into the building still housing the women and children as they attempted to escape in an attempt to frame the FSA for the despicable attack. Regime forces also fired missiles and ordered air strikes on the building, destroying it completely and killing almost all of the 200 - 250 civilians (including women and children) inside. Some people survived the massacre and verified this report. This is the testimony of one of the children who escaped: (12-11-12) Alhoula Homs Syria l Alawite Children Describe how Regime Thugs Held them captive as Human shields vs FSA
 * ...and the boy in a third scene with a cute little baby for more emotions thrown in. Astonishing lack of evidence for hundreds of victims so far. --CE (talk) 15:32, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Here's the transcript of a TV report, apparently Syrian "pro-regime", but it's next to useless in auto-translate. One big clan detained for 12 days, then the Farouk brigade who controls everything shelled the house and killed them all, or something. Could be complete BS. --CE (talk) 18:16, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A good add. I'll try to getthe main parts semi-translated soon. It starts out saying rebels slaughtered people, but then makes clear no one really knows what happened after the people they spoke to escaped and ran into the night. To "التاعونة" which has a pin, here, quite close (shoula have waited on the map). --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A big report. I managed to scrape enough useful translations it's well worth citing and adding. Especially the last part, as summarized above. Forthcoming. In the meantime, see the image from there I just uploaded.

Same two women in the center and left are visible in Channel 4's report, 3:37. Must be close friends or possibly sisters. Also working Al-Mayadeen subtitle transcriptions. Some good info there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * alkhabar-ts.com, run from Canada, most viewed in Czech Republic, says this page. Seems pretty obscure. Can't get an easy reading what it purports to be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:12, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a privately run Syrian TV Channel, apparently quite new and with secular agenda. Here the "about us" page translated. It airs over Nilesat. Nice work on the content! --CE (talk) 14:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Found an interesting site, "Enduring America" - quite impressive live coverage going on. Tuesday they dealt with Aqrab and they have one advantage over us: Translators. Here today's conclusion after two days. Follow the first link in the article for the live research they did on Tuesday (including some translations of Jalal's videos). --CE (talk) 18:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Like everyone else, EA may be mixing up the places: a few shelling victims in (Sunni?) Aqrab, possible massacre in Akrad Ibrahim. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We're coming around on that. It's a valuable resource, EA, politics...well, they deal in evidence, allow and respond to my comments, so it's cool. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Child survivors

 * Not sure if Thomson really was in Aqrab. He says "this report is only from people Channel 4 News has spoken to both in and near to Aqrab itself", which could mean someone else, and by Skype. SANA has a rudimentary item today saying (in total) "A military source in the Central Region on Wednesday denied news claiming that a massacre took place in Aqrab in Hama countryside.". The guy from SyrPer also claims it's completely made up. documents.sy only quotes an "Al Hatay" newspaper based in London citing other news outlets. --CE (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The BBC article has a picture of a boy who is quite obviously the same our friend Jalal interviewed yesterday, on a different "bed". --CE (talk) 21:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is "Jalal Solomon" (جلال سليمان) from the Houla Media Office. The channel now has 360 uploaded videos. There are a large number of battle and rebel videos from the last two weeks, many from a place called Scorpion.
 * This older one has an ironic title: Hula Free Army prepares to defend civilians 9-11 I have been following this machine gun for some time now, it seems to be from one of the ARC:s in front of the sequrity HQ. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I noticed the references to "Scorpion" as well. It's Jalal for sure, found it on his channel after all. Question is if it's the same boy. Even without having seen the video the BBC is referring to, I think it quite definitely is. What do you guys think? --CE (talk) 23:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not even looking at videos yet, but sounds like the same boy from what you guys say. Actual informed opinion later. They're saying it's all made up? By the rebels? ?? Trying too hard to not make propaganda out of it as they're alleged to have intended? Thomson sais "in and near" the town. He goes places like that, and spoke to locals, so my impression is he went. "Scorpion" appears as a victims on the DCHRS Houla massacre victims list. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:47, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The head of the new puppet show called for the alawites to rise up today (besides calling on the US to re-think their terrorist filing of Al-Nusra, which of course isn't mentioned in that rag ;o)], so that would fit with your mentioned - maybe propaganda manufactured - Alawite uprising. Thomson - I doubt he was in Syria lately, but looking at context at blog and/or twitter (if he does that) should help clarify. --CE (talk) 23:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have exchanged tweets with @alextomo (alex thomson) on Twitter. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Great! Context definitely tells that he really is in Syria again. Just wanted to double-check that as the article isn't clear. Kudos to him. --CE (talk) 00:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Re: "What do you guys think?" – What I think is not fit to print.
 * I have long since stopped following any "main stream" Western news channels. Propaganda works on at least six different levels, from the intellectual to the emotional. Even if you have defenses against most of them, some little lie will sneak through.
 * Quoting BBC: "pro-government militiamen besieged by rebels had blown up a building in the village where they had been holding the civilians hostage, and it had then been bombed by warplanes."
 * There are ethical norms in journalism, that govern what lies are fit to print. The BBC editors who published this should be hung from the gallows on Fleet Street have their heads examined. This is so absurd, that I cannot be bothered with any of today's details.
 * What I really think is this: When Syria is finished these terrorist will move to Russia. It is thus in Russia's vital national interest to defend Syria. The red line is in any direct military intervention. If NATO initiates any attack or "no-fly-zone" – without a UN mandate – Russia will respond by sinking the nearest NATO aircraft carrier, with nuclear armed missiles or torpedoes if necessary. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC) –– P.S. – SyrPer seems to agree. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * P.S. – I went ahead and read the crap on BBC – how can any news organization sink this low? They are repeating "activist" claims as fact or as plausible fact. From the "contradictory reports" received by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights they selectively choose and pick the snippets that fit their narrative. Do they really believe in this?
 * Even if this was true, it is unverified and biased – not fit to print by any news organization. I took a Freeze Page of the crap. I think someone should file a complaint with the British Press Complaints Commission.
 * (Is the web site of the BBC outside the self-regulation of the Press Complaints Commission? Broadcasts are regulated by Ofcom .) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Here is another video: Hula scorpion 11-12 certificates children survivors of the massacre – (should be translated: Houla Aqrab December 11th, testimonies of child survivors of the massacre.) Facebook comments here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:38, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Is this the same Salafist guy who is doing the interview, and saving children? here and here -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:27, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Three more videos here. Uploaded by Hula proud. There is plenty of relevant footage there, like this one: Hula 12/10/2012 child wounded after bombing al-Asadi of the city -- Petri Krohn (talk)

More testimony: Certificate or Ayham after leaving the safety of the hands of Shabiha -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:35, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Can I just start a new spot and ask a perhaps stupid question? What's the thing with this boy? How do we know he's supposed to be a Sunni from Houla in one spot and an Alawite in the other? Both videos are from the same recent events, right? I'm barely looking at videos now. Some aren't playing on Youtube, but strangely they convert. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:43, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * We did not know that our friends from Taldou are directly involved in this. That's the relevance: Jalal our Taldou ambassador interviewed the kid which also ended up illustrating the BBC article. The question was just me speculating what it could mean. Petri has now shown us below that the events are closely connected - will look at that later and try to make sense of it. --CE (talk) 11:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I was asking the same question. But as CE says, the fact that we have Jalal speaking for both sets of victims is big news. As Oscar Wilde said: "To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness." Misfortune or not, it cast a shadow over BOTH massacre stories.
 * Note by the way, that we have one Eric the Red at both massacre sites. There are other rebels we may recognize. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Victims from one big family
There's a french guy on twitter who runs a restaurant in Damascus and says he has an employee who has family in Aqrab and says the Alawite victims (or at least many of them) belonged to a large family called Jbeili. --CE (talk) 18:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The boy in the videos is called Mohamed Judl. Jubeili=Judl? Could be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed: Alkhabar Telesite (Syria) heard that around 300 members of the Jubeili family comprised the bulk of the 500 prisoners. The translation I got was wonky - perhaps there was a loud threat (bullhorn?) against the Jubeili family (something about coming, like to get you?) heard with/around/after dawn prayers (on the 2nd?). Already incorporated on the front-page. Good early catch, P. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:47, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The Guilty Shabiha: Jubeili Men
Tafas Coordination Committee, December 11, 2012 at 6 :54 PM, had a detailed account on Facebook (in Arabic), with a different summary also here. Citing both below, will be source "TC". Tafas is nowhere near Aqrab, and it's mostly based on citing the big lady with the 14:00 interview with lots of details, Umm Ayham, who everyone cites (srr the Hasan Hassan, The National, all the most shrill opposition sources, etc.). They pass on a lot of her details: Only five gunmen: --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The five gunmen from Shabiha from the village Bahtgazna in place in the village has been listed about 500 people before it goes out Shabiha about 120 people detained for Istkhaddmohm as human shields against the rebels who rushed to Anqana and get us out because we want to go out and do not want to stay
 * They were led by Ismael Jubeili (جبيلي), aka Abu Ali. A Farzat Jubeili killed the "Sunni clerics" sent to encourage their surrender, as well as "154 women and girls of the Alawite sect." There was also a Mohammed Jubeili.
 * Maybe Mohammed is the same as Ismael. Three others are named - Solomon and Ammar Al-Melhem, Ahmed Faiz - and only five numbered.
 * "Solomon and Ammar Al-Melhem and Farzat and Mohammed Jubeili and Ahmed Faiz committed suicide to avoid being caught in the grip of the Free Syrian Army."
 * Elsewhere, the guilty Shabniha were said to have escaped justice by running away never to be seen again.

Chains of Love?
We hear talk of Shabiha (armed Alawite men) holding women and children (and other men too one guesses) hostage, perhaps driven by fears of what happens after the surrender. Terms of surrender other than not being harmed aren't clear from the rebel end. From the other end, we hear a deal where the women and children would be spared, as human shields in Houla, while the men would be killed. We hear talk of refusal, solidarity, collectivehostage-taking of the Sunni delegation urging whatever type of surrender... I wonder if the whole lot didn't just take the delegation prisoner, but cause their deaths, with a sound beating. Lack of food/low energy would argue against that a bit ...

Anyway, it might have been bonds of love these Jubeili and other men exerted over especially the female (cited above) members of their present family. Human shields die anyway, in sometimes cruel ways, after God knows what, as soon as rebels need another videoof bombing or massacre victims. So they do the only thing they can be sure of, the one thing being urged so strongly against - stay together. Wow. It's a powerful thought, and it makes a lot of sense. Would make an excellent movie someday, to help explain why the world FINALLY CAME TO ITS SENSE AND DEMANDED OF ITSELF AN ABRUPT ABOUT-FACE TO CONFRONT ******* REALITY. Never again, we said. Unless we're hypnotized, we meant.

Also, note to rebels: The half-measure of releasing some inside witnesses first was a mistake. Your media immunity is not absolute, and your lack of follow-through at Mazraat Al-Qubeir is to blame (hat-tip again, however, to Alex's driver that day) No (real and non-controlled) survivors, like with the Houla massacre, is really your best bet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:47, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

HRW Investigation
In case this shapes up into something with several parts worth melding, Human Rights Watch is following the story (may have a report by now, but not last I checked) LA Times, Dec. 15: Mystery surrounds fate of Syrians held in town of Aqrab Nadim Houry, deputy director of the Middle East division of Human Rights Watch was quoted as saying the situation was "very murky," but somehow they were sure "a number of people" had been killed.
 * "There are various narratives there, and we don’t have enough to have a conclusion yet," Houry said. "I’m not using the word massacre. It’s not clear to me how they died."'

HRW's Peter Bouckaert has a playlist of videos for "Aqrab killings," none of them showing the killings, nor more than one of the killed, and as far as I could tell, nothing at all interesting that we don't already have listed, among the 32 videos there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Dec. 20: nine days in, a search for Aqrab + Syria+Alawites + "Human Rights Watch" reveals no statements of their own. Their ME director Nadim Houry however put out a tweet perhaps explaining why it will stay that way; they ain't touching it. From his twitter feed:
 * Nadim Houry ‏@nadimhoury How to get to bottom of Aqrab massacre claims? send UN investigation team to the scene. Who can allow them in? #Syria government

But who's going to send them and why stringent about total clarity all of a sudden? Just tell us it's a regime crime somehow! Houry was apparenty taken to task for it by a few people. His reactions, all same-day:
 * @asadabukhalil distorting my words intentionally again.I tell journos we don't know what happened in Aqrab & still investigating.
 * @TaktakCo no standard definition.Aqrab may be a massacre. We just don't know yet given lack of available info & ongoing investigation
 * ''@NuffSilence @asadabukhalil no need to get into insults. However, I disagree with As`ad (and find his coverage of our work unfair/partial)"
 * @asadabukhalil no.you twisted my words to suit your conclusions.Where did I say we concluded our investigation.
 * @asadabukhalil when i was asked the question, narrative was Alawites killed Alawites.I said, details were murky.Which by they still are

Looking forward to the investigation's results, then. Drafting a letter demanding one. News here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:35, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Seen this one? (copied from above)
 * This video has Thomson's report and after it starting at around 6:30 a report from Lebanese Al-Mayadeen TV interviewing refugees in surrounding villages. English translation. Details on negotiations. Got no time to add to article now, but should get. --CE (talk) 01:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * --CE (talk) 02:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. As now noted above, working on it. Expect that added by mid-morning your time in a new section on the captives not in rebel care, escaped/released and the rest, status unknown. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Scorpion?
"عقرب" is Arabic for scorpion, pronounced ʕáqrab. Must be the name of the town. Searching for Houla + Scorpion ("عقرب الحولة‎") is likely to produce relevant results – like this crap. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It was a description, not a name, for a victim I think translated "Zainab Veins." Did an Aqrab person die in the Houla massacre, or what? Later ...--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Al Kanteera

 * Hadi al-Abdullah returned Hula blood flowing and the massacre of scorpion 11-12 – live on Al Jazeera. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello!
Thanks for the good work. Need to concentrate on something else. Will be back soon. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, Petri! It's been good to have your fairly prolific contributions again lately. Do pop in with what you can when you can. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Monitoring the news
In addition of figuring out what happened, we should monitor what the media is telling of the events. Do they blame "Assad" or the rebels. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:28, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Rebels did it

 * Mystery surrounds fate of Syrians held in town of Aqrab – LA Times, December 15, 2012

Rebels Didn't Do It

 * Sharq Al-Awsat/Al Arabiya, December 20 Massacre in Syria’s Aqrab – what really happened?
 * The witnesses’ recorded stories stating that the Shabiha in the town, who were already a part of the Houla massacre, have committed a mass suicides, fearing the worst that can happen for themselves and their families.
 * The correspondent [Thomson] was not able to enter the town, and although he had met witnesses without any prior preparation, he was still inconclusive in terms of who was responsible for the massacre.
 * Rebels partly to blame: Moreover, what proves that a siege was imposed by the Free Syrian Army against the families, are the stories of the town suffering from a lack of drinking water for several days, while mothers were beating their children so they would stop screaming.

???
Hassan Hassan, The National, Dec. 17
 * On December 9, nearly 200 people were killed in the small Syrian village of Aqrab, which is about 40 kilometres west of Hama.
 * (well, it's what happened on the 11th that's in dispute. Only one side seems sure a number sort of near 200 were killed. The other side only know they don't know what happened.
 * ...the regime has successfully pitted groups against each other...
 * One of the most telling videos shows an old Alawite woman ...The woman, who identifies herself as Umm Ayham, speaks for over 14 minutes in great detail, some of which has been corroborated by a report by Alex Thomson, of the British broadcaster Channel 4. The news report was released three days after the Umm Ayham's video was uploaded to YouTube.
 * The nerve!
 * It is unclear who had rounded up the civilians. A day before the massacre, the rebels let go about 125 people, who fled to the nearby village of Taouna. The rebels assured the remaining hostages that they would not be hurt...
 * To be fair, he had a paragraph break interrupting the simple math there...

''There appear to be two main questions that are still in dispute. How did the 500 people become trapped in the building in the first place, and who was threatening them? And after the violence described by Umm Ayham, what events then led to 200 people being killed?''
 * Yeah, the rebels already told us once. What, you don't believe their story? It was sort of clear.

If the people inside the building were hostages, why did the rebels allow some to leave?
 * Hostage exchange, it's said. But otherwise, a good question.

''An independent investigation could clear up a number of points, in particular whether those girls had been shot at close range, which might corroborate the charges against "Farzat". Without that proof, the witness account remains open to dispute.''
 * "Proof," or "might corroborate?" Why can rebel captors not get close range? How did they haul out the survivors?

''But Umm Ayham's video also sends another important message to the Syrian opposition. Alawites are often portrayed as invariably sticking with the regime for survival. This is not accurate. Many Alawites are caught in the middle, just as are so many others in Syrian society. Twenty-one months into the violence, Alawites were still living alongside Sunnis in Aqrab - something worth considering. The mediators were also from the village.''
 * "Were" until what, dummy? The nerve! Open genocide on a mass scale is only just now starting. Hey, could've happened earlier, there's been some degree of restraint.