Talk:Ukraine war casualties

News on casualties
August 19 Members of militias Donetsk and Lugansk national republics includes 19-23 thousand people, they are opposed 48-52 thousand Ukrainian military, said in a daily summary of the militia.

http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/vz.ru/news/2014/8/19/701132.html

oops this page sort of started itself KatKan (talk) 19:05, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No worries - a good page to have. My first adds were a bit rough (copies) but now it's rolling (thanks CE) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

For a section on nature of casualties, or something - I think we should cover that:
 * Yandex translated situation report:
 * 5. The Donetsk is controlled by the militia, a frontal assault from the West is hardly possible, and from North and South, the junta has got stuck in the battles for the transfer and Yasinovataya. In General, the city is now covered with shells and missiles attacks are openly terrorist in nature and aimed at the destruction of the civilian population and the development of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Is this not a better definion of terrorist, in nature, than anything the Kiev junta has come up with to support it's description of the federalists? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels: " american mercenary killed" "Franko", apparently Ukrainian diaspora, possible Canadian accent suggested, Battalion "Donbass". Was granted Ukrainian citizenship, and apparently a double citizen (unclear). Volunteered to fight in UAF. Apparently, KIA. Prior interview with him given in Ukraine to a Western journalist is posted. 20.08.2014 - 4:23  --Chingachgook (talk) 01:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Nothing odd or bad in this. Diaspora sometimes DOES "go home" to help in a fight, especially against the side that forced him or his parents to leave originally. Australia currently has several like this fighting in Syria (on the ISIS side), Government won't let them back in. KatKan (talk) 09:11, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels: Battalion Shaktersk (Ukraine AF): 2 killed, 6 wounded under Ilovaisk (Иловайск)

(Pro-Ukraine, in Ukranian): "Нелюди вели вогонь по транспорту, який йшов під білим прапором. В результаті 17 людей загинули на місті, і лише шістьом вдалося вижити", 17 KIA claimed --Chingachgook (talk) 01:29, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * In English " 17 people were killed in a fire fighters with mortars and "city" refugee convoy on August 18 in area towns Novosvitlivka-Hryaschuvate (Lugansk region). Lonely fired on transport, which was under a white flag. As a result, 17 people died in the city, and only six survived"" THIS IS THE REFUGEE CONVOY STORY AGAIN, again without images KatKan (talk) 09:11, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels: 17 August, 28-Brigade from Odessa, UAF: 9 KIA  --Chingachgook (talk) 01:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

City of Харцызск is shelled, Donbass region. Both sides claim that the other side is to blame

Pro-Ukraine claim: rebels shelled Еленовка, Donbass region, using Grad. "Preliminary information, nobody was killed"   --Chingachgook (talk) 02:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Pro-Ukraine, in Ukrainian report on events on 18 August (no KIA figure provided) Ударні частини батальйону територіальної оборони "Донбас" протягом 18 серпня (August 18)  знищили блокпости терористів у Іловайську (Донецька область) та увійшли в місто з декількох напрямів. Про це на своїй сторінці у Facebook написав комбат Семен Семенченко. 


 * IN English "Impact of territorial defense battalion "Donbass" for August 18 (August 18) was destroyed in the terrorist roadblocks Ilovays'k (Donetsk region) and entered the city from several directions. This wrote commander Simon Semenchenko on its Facebook page. "

Pro-Ukraine, in Ukrainian report on events on 19 August ( UAF "Donbass" 4 KIA reported,  UAF "Shaktersk", 2 KIA, 6 wounded  ) В результаті важких боїв підрозділи батальйону територіальної оборони "Донбас" зазнали втрат і змушени були вийти з бою з Іловайську (Донецька область).Про це повідомляє прес-служба батальйону на своїй сторінці у Facebook.

Як повідомляється, станом на 22-у годину "бійці батальйону "Донбас" вийшли з бою під Іловайськом". "Весь день точився складний та запеклий бій, у результаті якого постраждала велика кількість військових "Донбасу". Кількість поранених уточнюється", - заявили у прес-службі.

Чотирьох бійців батальйону 19 серпня вбили терористи. У той же час у Twitter`i добровольчого батальйону "Шахтарськ" повідомили, що загін досі веде бій під Іловайськом та має втрати: 2 загиблих, 6 поранених. 


 * In English "Donbass "suffered losses and were forced to withdraw from the battle of Ilovays'k (Donetsk region) .About the press service of the battalion on his page on Facebook. Reportedly, at the 22nd hour "soldiers battalion" Donbass "came from the Battle of Ilovajskij."
 * "All day tochyvsya complex and fierce battle, in which a large number of injured military" Donbass ". Specified number of wounded," - said the press service. Four soldiers of the battalion killed August 19 terrorists. At the same time Twitter`i volunteer battalion "Miner" reported that the unit is still under Ilovajskij fight and has lost 2 killed, 6 wounded."

(pro-Ukraine, in Ukranian) Poroshenko had a chat with Lukashenko about situation on Ukranian Donbass

Президент України Петро Порошенко провів телефонну розмову з Президентом Республіки Білорусь Олександром Лукашенком. Про це ввечері 19 серпня повідомила прес-служба президента України

Зокрема зазначено, що Президент України подякував президентові Білорусі за можливість проведення 26 серпня у Мінську зустрічі високого рівня у форматі Україна – Європейський Союз – "Євразійська трійка".

Сторони також обговорили ряд питань двосторонніх відносин та врегулювання надзвичайної ситуації на українському Донбасі.
 * In English "President of Ukraine Poroshenko had a telephone conversation with President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko.

This evening, August 19 press service of President of Ukraine In particular, states that the President of Ukraine thanked the President for the opportunity to Belarus on 26 August in Minsk high-level meeting in the Ukraine - European Union - "Eurasian Three". The parties also discussed a range of issues of bilateral relations and the settlement of an emergency in the Ukrainian Donbass."]

"Президенти України та Росії Петро Порошенко та Володимир Путін визначаться, чи зустрічатися їм найближчим часом в "нормандському форматі". " 

UAF Colonel Володимир Рубан discusses his (and his son) efforts on hostage or prisoners exchange, in this youtube video (starting around 13.55 or so). Major difficulties in such attempts discussed  --Chingachgook (talk) 11:25, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I've added the English translations, while I was getting them anyway. STILL can't understand Ukrainian or Russian but am starting to read cyrillic letters ok. KatKan (talk) 09:11, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Daily casualties?

 * Sergey Bobkov @sbobkov 1:32 AM - 20 Aug 2014
 * ''All fighting near #Donetsk today cost #Ukrainian troops 483 KIA and 700+ WIA, per radio communication intercepts. #ATO #DNR

72nd Brigade

 * Interrogation of a Ukrainian POW conscript – ENG SUBS
 * ''The real losses of the 72nd Brigade were never announced. They spoke about 100 men, but in reality the whole brigade was exterminated. Besides those who surrendered.

Missing soldiers
There was a Kiev battalion of ~4000 men which seems to have disappeared (24 Mechanised Brigade??) About 73 of them turned up in Kiev and are being treated as possible deserters. Apparently they were given permission to retreat, and they (sensibly IMHO) decided to retreat all the way home to Kiev. The other 4000 are not listed as dead. So where are they? slipped home? changed sides? escaped to Russia as refugees? captured? KatKan (talk) 08:20, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I thought so. From early August:
 * "On Sunday, Vasili Malayev, spokesman for the Rostov Oblast FSB Border Service said that twelve junta soldiers laid down their arms and crossed into Russia in Rostov Oblast, saying “They laid down their arms and crossed into Russia at the Gukovo border checkpoint. Now, we’re investigating why they did this. The soldiers crossed into Russia on Saturday, they were from the Ukrainian Army’s 72 Mechanized Brigade. There were previous instances of junta troops rallying to Russia. In late July, more than 40 junta troops left their units and asked the DNR and LNR opolchenie to help them escape to Russia because they didn’t want to fight against their own people. All the junta troops came through the Donetsk border post in Rostov Oblast. They thanked the opolchenietsy who helped them."
 * from an excellent blog KatKan (talk) 09:54, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

WHO IS LEFT?
Not casualties (yet) but available to throw into battle? don't know how much wishful thinking there is in this article, but it's an overview of the forces they think are available to Kiev. From Russian source but very interesting. Good analysis of how house to house fighting will end up destroying all the houses. Very scary. KatKan (talk) 08:20, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

POWS?
Well, whatever is politically correct way to have this story in nadiya-savchenko I see no reason why not to have her released in some appropriately near future. No other cases I am clearly aware of, there was mentioning of ~ 300 UAF POWs  whom Ruban was chasing but that was from a while ago. I have not seen estimates of NAF POWs. Ruban was saying things like every extra day in captivity is very bad (if you are surrounded, it might be not possible to be too accommodating for prisoners) --Chingachgook (talk) 09:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Some hints that some prisoners were not treated well, no definite details

MAJOR difficulties of POW MIA work
Ruban's POW MIA work on government side were heard reporting MAJOR difficulties. This mission is not really done by government, it is done by a military officer, who set something up. But this officer by his code of conduct cannot tell his boss to cause the desired outcome. His only option is to wait for journos to yell so much that something will happen (But yelling of all those journos is inverse proportional to their reasonableness ).

To put this in short, I would do this (1) ask Ruban what needs to happen (2) make sure this does happen (or else, nothing good will happen)--Chingachgook (talk) 11:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

--Chingachgook (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Unhappy conscripts, with unhappy consequences
Some reports suggesting mothers or conscripts very unhappy to be drafted to fight in a pointless war. In some areas, whole areas were against draft. Once you are drafted, it becomes a matter of honor to fight, whether or not you believe it is for a right cause. Culturally, being a deserter is an insult. Majority of UAF fighting are drafted, not volunteered (not certain on law of the land but believe service is required). Somebody who withdrew too far may be in very serious trouble (possibly shot). It is plausible that small number of crazy people are herding much bigger pack of conscripts into a fight, with withdrawing not a plausible option. Some talk of such tactics were heard. That may be a reason for large losses,  unprepared and unwilling conscripts are lead from behind to die. Another issue is that once you got unwilling soldiers, what you do is to put the biggest artillery gun you can find to blast place in front of you into small enough pieces before venturing out there to figure out what was there at all. Rebels are constantly saying that loyalists use this type of tactics, they slowly shell things out with big (artillery) guns   --Chingachgook (talk) 10:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Stopping hostilities and security of the government officials
This may be difficult. On government side, going without a security is not a plausible option. But security may be provided by not the most sensible of all of the people, let's put it like that. So, talk is heard of rebels volunteering to provide security for government officials. Response to that suggestion was not heard. There are also some elections coming and some yelling is kicked up (not clear on exact details, but some right sector marches on Kiev were threatened recently)--Chingachgook (talk) 10:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Right to war protest
Like, what's particularly wrong with this picture ? (Certainly, made my only smile for the whole bloody day).Chingachgook (talk) 10:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Lack of trained negotiators
Some were trained but are nowhere be found. Rouban is THE ONLY (!!!!) negotiator in that land. --Chingachgook (talk) 12:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * So. It is starting. Dancing in the church nobody liked. The flag many secretly liked. Imprisoning these kids many won't like. Eyes will start to open. KatKan (talk) 12:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Wounded
I guess at this point we have no clue, there may be no electricity or no facilities etc. Right now, it is comfortable whether to run around doing stupid things but we are moving into colder weather which will create additional issues --Chingachgook (talk) 12:37, 21 August 2014 (UTC)