Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre

Death toll?

 * В Славянске проверяют информацию о приближающейся колонне бронетехники (Regional council deputy: the death toll in Odessa was 116 people) – РИА Новости
 * Kiev conceals deaths in Odessa fire, 116 killed - Ukrainian lawmaker – VoR
 * ''The interim Ukrainian authorities are hiding from the public the true death toll in Friday's tragedy in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, which actually claimed 116 lives, a member of the Odessa regional council told RIA Novosti Monday. "According to our data, there were 116 people killed in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. Killed, not just "dead". "We don't use the word "burned" or "suffocated", because autopsies are not being performed, since the people have bullet wounds to the head," Vadim Savenko said.


 * Одесситы рассказывают о зверствах нацистов
 * Vladimir Suchan on Facebook
 * ''According to Odessite activists with information on the ground, 126 people were killed only in the basement of the Labor Union building in Odessa on May 2. 8 people died by jumping from the windows, 12 people were beaten to death on the ground by the walls of the Labor Union building, and 9 people were shot to death by the windows. Altogether, the overall number of the dead significantly exceeds the official number of 46 and actually stands between 200 and 300.


 * Руководитель Одесской народной республики: По моим данным, в Доме профсоюзов погибли 272 человека (Head of the People's Republic of Odessa: According to my information, in the House of Trade Unions killed 272 people) – RT, May 16, 2014
 * ''During a fire in Odessa Trade Union House killed 272 people. This was explained in an interview with the head of the self-proclaimed RT Odessa's Republic Valery Kaurov. Now he is in Moscow.

Victim list

 * В неофициальном списке погибших 2 мая в Одессе — уже 42 имени (An informal list of victims on May 2 in Odessa - already 42 names)

Death of regional council deputy Vyacheslav Markin

 * В Одессе в госпитале умер депутат облсовета (In Odessa, a regional council deputy died in hospital)
 * ''In Odessa, died in hospital Odessa Regional Council deputy Vyacheslav Markin.
 * Andrey Davydov ‏@FarEasterner
 * ''Yesterday Maidanites severely beat local legislators who tried to stop mayhem. One of them Mr Markin just died

Pregnant woman

 * Moscow journalist says there was no pregnant woman in Odesa Trade Unions Building – EuromaidanPR, May 10, 2014

So the medical sources agree there was no pregnant woman among the dead. This was an older woman with a bloated middle who was brutally murdered, and left looking pregnant. Also, "What makes you think the person in the photo is even dead? Kremlin media doesn’t need a dead body to stage a photo of a “dead person”. Sadly, probably because they are economically vulnerable and perhaps a bit nostalgic for the old USSR, we see again and again elderly women participating in disgusting Kremlin-sanctioned stage plays to seed hatred in the hearts of the vulnerable." This from the same "PR" group that called the non-fake charred people "Russian Terrorists." They must have done the fakery before torching themselves? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I decided to post this note here, but already did. Still some points worth adding:

a) she was a pro-Putin faker who slipped away and so never came through his hospital b) he knows but would rather not admit a woman was murdered like that c) She was simply passed through a different hospital or by a different doctor and he just doesn't know. But he seems to imply fakery anyway... --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why everyone thinks she was strangled with a phone cord. I don't see anything clarifying if she was strangled at all, or just what. Does anyone know if this is based on anything credible?
 * The claim of an older woman, to me, fits with the picture. She does look a little on the older side, and that doesn't really look like a pregnant belly, just swollen
 * If this is partly post-mortem bloating (maybe accelerated by the pose?) it could be a timeline clue: was she killed in the evening break-in, or even earlier, when the red armband people were getting themselves set up in there?
 * In the above, sleazy article, the Moscow journalist (Elena Rykovtseva) called "chief doctor of one of Odesa’s hospitals that is receiving the wounded." He hadn't heard the claim, and "asked to see her photo. And he immediately said it was clearly an elderly woman who was photographed, for some reason, here in such a pose, likely in order to create the needed effect." "Pose" implies, as the sleazy article does, that this was faked. Having seen the photo, the doctor did provide a positive ID. This could suggest:

Another source: The mysterious 'strangled woman' of Odessa France 24, the Observers, May 13. An inherently mainstream, pro-Kiev outlook, but fairly balanced, and with some useful information.
 * The photo was taken by a woman who goes by the name “Alena” (unavailable). Alena says she went to the scene the day after the fire to search for a relative who had disappeared. She first published the photo on May 3 in a Facebook album (no longer in the album) retracing her visit through the building. She then reposted it in on her Facebook wall on May 7, along with a short explanation. She wrote that, following numerous reactions to this photo, she wanted to clarify the context in which it was taken. She says she took it on the building’s fourth floor, and that she regrets not photographing more angles of the body in order to help understand the reasons for her death. ... In the same post, Alena says that the dead woman was rather old and that she doubts she could have been pregnant...
 * Alena thought she was not pregnant, probably right. She also thought the wman seemed to be dead, not faking, lying in wait to be pictured like that.


 * One of our sources also told us he exchanged emails with a relative of the woman. This source claims the victim had “nothing do to do with the separatists” and was simply an employee of the trade union house.
 * "Relatives" speaking for her suggests she did indeed die, and probably at her work. She worked there at the hall, they say, not in a Moscow propaganda unit.

A coroner told the Obervers:
 * This position, with her bottom on the desk, makes me think that someone placed her there. The absence of any trace of the fire in the room also makes asphyxiation seem unlikely, though of course we cannot completely rule out the emission of toxic gases, since we don’t know when the window was opened.” The doctor added that strangulation, or a strike on the head, are both possibilities that could explain her death.
 * The coroner thought she looked dead, and seems to lean a bit towards the murder-type explanations. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Victim analysis
On the Euromaidan PR video Russian Terrorists Burnt Alive shows badly burnt bodies in the stairwell. Odd positions, heads up, feet facing up to higher floor, rigor mortis, hands sticking up. It looks like these people did not die naturally in these positions. Many of the same oddities as we saw in the Khamis Brigade Morgue. Note the tags attached to the wrists. Some have documents in plastic bags attached with cable ties. These must have been placed by rescue services after the fire. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I had a look, but not a careful one. From the shed massacre, I can say usually back muscles contract more and bodies curl backwards if burnt enough. These don't look that burnt, nor are their postures very consistent with that. The arms up thing we also saw, and I'm not sure if people really die with arms frozen up in defense, but it looks like that here (0:16), like it did with the one guy who seemed beheaded. So, I don't know yet. They seem to have some marks on them, looking for bullet holes or the like. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Not blood. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Victims carried out
The head of the Russian State Duma Committee on Foreign Affairs Alexei Pushkov says
 * ''We know that in Odessa about 116 dead, we know that in Odessa have seen and heard, as handed down the corpses from the rear entrance of the House of Trade Unions, trying to hide the real number of people who were burned, strangled and shot in the House of Trade Unions."

One of the Denis Cherkasov videos shows about 10 smashed bodies carried out in the rear of the building, after the rear entrance is set on fire. I have a copy of the video, but now found a mirror on-line. I do not know if the people are alive or dead. Even if alive, they would die in a few minutes in the burning building, if left there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Одесса, 2 мая, Куликово поле, Дом профсоюзов с обратной стороны. Вынос раненых и убитых. (Odessa, May 2, Kulikovo Field, House of Trade Unions on the reverse side. Removal of the wounded and dead.)

Poison Gas?

 * Voice of Russia - People in Ukraine's Odessa died instantly, poisoned by unknown substance - report
 * "I was at the accident scene and saw a great number of dead people. It was evident that they died instantly, very quickly," the agency quoted Ukraine’s First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema as saying.
 * "This means that some substance burned which generated gas and this gas quickly affected people who lost consciousness and died on the spot," Yarema told journalists at a briefing in Odessa, RIA reports.
 * He said the examination of bodies will be carried out to identify the gas.

From the source (cabal official) and the bolded, obviously I don't trust this guy. But is this completely made-up? Or is he talking about something real he maybe knows about already? Is this just to explain why more people didn't try to escape, without mentioning people murdered by guns, bats, phone cords, and shot at as soon as they climbed out windows? There must've been an "accidental" gas. Or a purposeful one ... planted by the Russian provocateurs, of course. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

More here: (Moved from main page.) I think this is bullshit. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * События в Одессе происходили по разработанному сценарию - Порошенко (Events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario - Poroshenko)
 * ''People's Deputy of Ukraine, candidate for president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko noted that the events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario in advance and were prepared special toxic substances.
 * ''According to an UNIAN correspondent, he said at a briefing in parliament.
 * ''Poroshenko said that the script was developed, which began "with shooting terrorists who were brought from Transnistria, of Russia" and that shooting at people, speaking for a united Ukraine.


 * Порошенко сообщил о применении отравляющего вещества в одесском Доме профсоюзов (Poroshenko reported the use of toxic substances in the Odessa House of Trade Unions) – Gazeta.ru, May 6, 2014


 * Odessa: A Model of Warfare On the Cheap – Gordon Duff, May 16th, 2014 (Originally on NEO)
 * ''This was a NATO military operation, fully coordinated through the US Embassy in Kiev, one using nerve gas and done with full cooperation and support from local authorities. Sources among local law enforcement indicate that 94 additional bodies were removed, all showing signs of death from a chemical nerve agent, identified “probably” as VX. VX or one of a dozen or more derivatives of VX are available in grenade form.


 * Bloodbath in Odessa guided by interim rulers of Ukraine – "Antifascist", Voltaire net, 15 May 2014
 * ''Gasoline was mixed with napalm to form deadly, acrid carbon monoxide. The recipe for these deadly cocktails was created by chemists from Independence Square, but they were not used there. In Odessa, the mixture was employed for the first time and this was no accident: a massacre with a large number of fatalities was needed in order to terrorize the entire country.

Died in seconds?
Via AntiMaydan Odessa on VK
 * ''Chief lifeguard Odessa Oblast Vladimir Bodelan told some details of the tragic events of May 2 on the Kulikovo Field. According to him, fire central flight of stairs on the first two floors of the House of Trade Unions was literally in seconds. "Then followed some cotton, and it was evident that of cotton instantly fading fire. And at this very moment on the ground were a few people dropped out of the building by the back door. Most of them were still alive, and even on their feet leaving this place. But just a couple of tens of meters fell unconscious, and further the tragic outcome is known to all, "- says Vladimir Bodelan. According lifeguard, most the victims died almost instantly. "It is important as well as all not indifferent people to understand who and why needed to conduct such a horrific murder shares. But I'm sure that 99.9% of people were killed in the building trade unions in seconds, not choking from the smoke or fire eel. But there's forensics, wait their findings, "- he added. Vladimir Bodelan also noted that during the years of service has seen many deaths, but what happened in the Battle of Kulikovo it hard to believe until now.


 * US coup failed in Ukraine: Kiev junta's days are numbered – John Robles, VoR, 16 May 2014
 * ''Murder of Civilians by Right Sector in Ukraine
 * ''More details continue to come out regarding the horrible deaths at the House of Trade Unions in Odessa with the head of the Emergency Services Vladimir Bodelan, who was at the scene being dismissed for publishing his eyewitness version of the events on his Facebook page. According to the eyewitness account of the veteran rescuer, who has seen his share of bodies and death, what he saw at the House of Trade Unions was so horrible that it "cannot be real".
 * ''In his expert opinion he says the people in the House of Trade Unions all died in seconds and not the slow death of smoke inhalation. He also accounted how people were beaten to death and how the Right Sector brutally killed the people as well as how many people were able to successfully escape the burning building on their feet and then died suddenly on the spot.
 * ''He writes that even before the fire and smoke began pouring out of the House of Unions, on floors where there was no fire people were running to the windows trying to get fresh air to breathe. Again this was before the fire. He is 100% certain they were not affected by smoke from the fire. The head of the Emrgency Services says that his rescuers saved more than 350 people, and according to unofficial accounts there were more than 100 people killed in the fire.

Investigations and Talk
I'd like to organize a chronoligical review of at least some high points - investigations and relevant commentary/events --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * First, a chronology of investigations, new evidence release, statements from relevant people (involved and/or powerful), etc. but not random comments from whoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 8: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch jointly call for an impartial investigation, relating what was reported so far, with questions about police response and other issues. They put the onus on Kiev to be fair, and note their promise to work with experts from Europe and Israel. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The May 2 Committee, a panel of civic leaders, journalists, experts coordinated by social worker Sergey Dibrov. A May 19 report has Dibrov explaining (it seems) it wasn't to replace official investigations but to do their own work since people shouldn't just trust it. Pro-federalists opposed the inclusion of journalist Yuri Tkachev, but Dibrov and others insisted he stay for a balanced view. Tkachev earlier said, in an interview with DW, that federalists started the trouble, and the first victim was on the Euromaidan side. The latter is apparently undeniable, the former seems true on the surface but is well worth questioning) while noting the Maidanistas did come armed and ready to be provoked ...  "We want to show what happened and when, having painted events by the minute," said Dibrov. They planned to annoince their first findings in early June. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * May 12 - formation of May 2 Committee


 * May 13? Something from the Ukrainian Rada http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1264-vii --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 21: As covered below, Kiev's national security and defense council chief - and possible Odessa ATO and thus massacre organizer - Andriy Parubiy, spoke up in an interview to Euractiv: "Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk." They started it, the middle is vague, and "when the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions," it was from a chemical separatists had stored there; "when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed." He has experts - hired professional ones of some type - who say this, he's not making it up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * June 2: Party of Regions has started an investigation www.newsru.ua/ukraine/02jun2014/efram.html --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf This calls Odessa "the most serious single incident of significant loss of life in Ukraine since the killings on Maidan," and spends several points relating Ukraine's favorite "they started it!" football scuffle story. As for the core, massacre portion, they found that:
 * June 15 UN report
 * "...between 6.00 – 6.30 p.m., (federalists) decided to take refuge in the nearby Trade Union Building. ... At around 8.00 p.m., the “Pro-Unity” activists entered the Trade Union Building ... During the evening a fire broke out in the Trade Union Building."

Acknowledgment of entry seems like a big step forward. Otherwise, they nearly parrot Kiev's points, while offering oblique hints that riled-up right-wingers had something to do with it (" the Government must pay particular attention to ensure social media is not used for hate speech or incitement to hatred. ") and that the government is blocking oversight of its dubious investigations:
 * ...six official investigations have been established. The main bodies undertaking such investigations are the Ministry of Interior (MoI) and the State Security Service in Ukraine (SBU). It is with regret that the HRMMU reports a lack of cooperation from both governmental bodies, particularly at the central level with the HRMMU, which has been preventing the HRMMU from conducting a proper assessment of the progress made. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

http://larouchepac.com/node/31287
 * July 9 hearing in Europpean parliament
 * Latvian Member of the European Parliament Tatjana Zdanoka organized a hearing on the May 2 Odessa massacre, on July 9 in Brussels, despite disruptions staged by pro-Ukrainian coup groups. "Our objective is to demand an international investigation of the events in Odessa on May 2. Conclusions will be drawn only on the basis of qualified evidence collected by experts. It is my personal opinion that one of those conclusions will be the urgent need to put [Ukrainian fascist paramilitary group] Right Sector on the list of terrorist organizations." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

PACE (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) co-rapporteur for the monitoring of Ukraine Marietta de Pourbaix-Lundin (Sweden) said "I welcome the work done on this issue by a group of civil society experts and journalists, which deserves the full support of the authorities and the international community, and urge the international community to provide expertise to assist the investigations," ... “The local population is asking many questions about these events, which need clear answers in order to avoid distrust and possible tension." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Same track, July 16 ria.ru:

http://mfa.gov.ua/ua/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26014-shhodo-khodu-rozsliduvannya-vipadkiv-nasilystva-v-odesi "On the progress of investigations into violence in Odessa" (from Ukrainian) Ukraine sough an "unbiased," investigation with experts "to facilitate its comprehensiveness and impartial nature." They were confident that "unbiased coverage denies accusations Russian side to the so-called "Neo-Nazi massacre" in Odessa May 2, 2014." They outline six ongoing investigations. The ones they like emphasize they started it, "causing clashes and social chaos," citing the June UN report in support, and at the end it was "pro-Ukrainian activists" who labored "to save the protesters "for federalism" in a fire at the House of Trade Unions." All the details in between get sort of glossed over. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * July 23 Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * "Experts Odessa Regional Office forensics found that none of the victims died from injuries that could indicate a beating."
 * They speak of "organization of mass riots and killings by the local officials and law enforcement agencies to discredit the central government in Ukraine"
 * "Prior to the tragic events of May 2, 2014 in Odessa led another blatant interference of the Russian side in internal political development of Ukraine, attempt to impose stereotypical belief (artificially imposed so-called Kremlin "South-eastern" and identity ) ... undermining state sovereignty ..."
 * "In addition to the events of May 2, 2014, the Kremlin's repeated attempts to destabilize the situation in Ukraine took place in the south and east of our country."
 * "In Odessa implementation of this plan was thwarted active participation of the patriotic local population strongly rejects the artificially imposed so-called Kremlin "South-eastern" and identity under any circumstances and is not exposed to provocations directed by Moscow separatist propaganda."

“In this context I would like to pay attention to the necessity of a speedy legal decision, concerning criminal proceedings over the tragic events in Odessa in early May,” UNIAN news agency quoted Yarema as saying." Ria.ru
 * August 5 "Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaly Yarema on Saturday urged to speed up the investigation of the May 2 tragic events in Odessa, which claimed the lives of at least 48 people and injured over 200.


 * August 9: emergency calls transcript obtained by Odessa news website dumskaya.net and released to the media: RT report suggests the 38 minute delay in fire response is troubling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * August 12: RT reports Odessa slaughter survivors reveal their side of story in intl photo exhibit
 * (Survivors) have organized international photo exhibits in order to convey the events with a new clarity denied to viewers by Kiev.
 * ''In order to present the May 2 events in a manner that only a witness and a survivor could, two members of the Rodina (Motherland) group have formed a coalition called ‘Remember Odessa, Stop Fascism’.

Sergey Marchel and Oleg Muzyka contacted a number of European anti-fascist groups for the purpose of setting up a photo and video diary of what had gone down during the fire and the subsequent storming of the Fourth Regional Department of Internal Affairs in order to free the remaining anti-Maidan prisoners.''
 * Petri, take note --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The resulting exhibition was presented to the European public throughout the early summer, and has gained widespread popularity. The Berlin exhibit saw the biggest crowds, its ZDF and ARD networks covering the event, which consisted of over 50 photographs made by witnesses of the Odessa events.
 * “The events of May 2, 2014, on Odessa’s Koulikov Field must not be forgotten. And those among us who were spared must do everything in our power to ensure that our friends and close ones’ deaths were not in vain,” Muzyka said addressing the press and visitors.
 * “Eyewitnesses have traveled together with this exhibition, so that the spectators could get a first-hand account of how things went down… unarmed people were burnt alive in what was a pre-planned action,” Marchel said.
 * ... The show has been a big success, visited by journalists, public figures – even politicians. The creators are especially pleased with the effect the show had on the guests. It could clearly be seen that the guests were moved by scenes they had not imagined could take place in the heart of Europe.--Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Interior Ministry
From RT Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape, about the off-duty cop (I presume) shooting at the burning people and then claiming he was unarmed and they shot him ...
 * The Ukrainian Interior Ministry however offers a different version of events, saying the victims of the violent unrest started the fire themselves, when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the upper floor.

Quiet rage hit me there. Quiet, knife-in-your eye rage. The "legitimate government" and its demon-infested friends like this there will keep saying things like this until they're accusing these "Russian terrorists" of putting themselves on those trains to the extermination camps. Hoping to run over the beautiful EuroMaidan activists with it, of course... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

National Review
Western mainstream media has been shy of addressing the details or of calling this a "massacre" or anything incendiary. Hm, incendiary ... But finally we see a denunciation of the brutal and calculated crime in Odessa, so long as it's asking...
 * Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre? He has certainly exploited it Robert Zubrin, National Review, May 13
 * in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself.


 * ''So the question is, did he? ""

Yeah, probably, huh? Let's hear the details on how. Oh, Zubrin has none. None whatsoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The article he's written before contains a laughable CT that it's Putin with his filthy propaganda agents who's causing the overwhelming aversion of Europeans against fracking. Rest assured that I don't know anybody of any political stream who isn't against fracking since first having heard about it, just like against GMO food and comparable stuff. If you look at his company and the books he writes it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to saving humanity by helping us out of the dependency on oil with Mr. Zubrin's genius inventions is Vladimir Putin. ;o) --CE (talk) 09:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Andriy Parubiy

 * Ukraine official: Putin’s plans have failed - EurActiv, interview May 21: "Andriy Parubiy is a former commandant of Euromaidan. He spoke to EurActiv’s Senior Editor Georgi Gotev." He was somewhere for a meeting with NATO officials on how to fight the Russian plots against Ukraine. He shared many thoughts on how that works, from the anti-Fascit Maidan protests fired on by Spetsnaz snipers, to the Odessa Trade Unions provocation. The interviewer doesn't seem to like Parubiy, and asks him good/hard questions. Informative reading.
 * Q: How about this tragedy, this carnage in Odessa on 4 May?
 * Parubiy: This is a classic example of how Russia provokes, aiming at unleashing civil unrest and bloodshed. On that day, there was a football match. The fans had gathered and when they started marching with Ukrainian flags, a group of people started shooting at them with military guns. A few people were killed on the spot. In this group were citizens of Russia, which had come from Transnistria [a Russia-controlled breakaway territory of Moldova].
 * When the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions, experts have shown that the substance that provoked it had been stored there a long time ago. The House of the Trade Unions was a kind of headquarters for the separatists, it was not controlled by the authorities, nor by the opposition. And the substance that provoked the blaze was brought there during this period of time [when the separatists controlled the building]. I’m not saying that this substance was inflamed on purpose. But when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Odessa Anti-Terrorism Operation?
In their opinions above, Parubiy and Kiev at large paint a very passive picture of their own role in anything that day. It comes across as pro-Russian and Russian people vs. other people, in a spontaneous action that didn't even do anything - the one group killed themselves and that was it. However, we've seen signs of coordination of something. Parubiy attended a meeting on it, then met with a man involved in the non-action, delivering the bulletproof vests he was seen wearing one of during the random-seeming events. This suggests covert management, meant to be concealed. So I'm still baffled by a statement attributed to Odessa's mayor, apparently in reference to the massacre itself.
 * “The Odessa anti-terrorist operation is legal”

Is it just taken out of context in the one place I can find it? The Ukraine Genocide and its Cheerleaders - an 'excellent article. But I cannot locate the original message for context, in English or Ukrainian. I thought I had seen it, as a tweet, from him? Is it interesting, his claim that the lynch mob had official backing (was "legal"), and is that why it's so hard to find now? Copies must be around ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Who staffed this ATO? What did they do, where and when? Why wasn't it clearly reported? What relation does it have to the mass murder that day? Two days later AFP reported Ukraine expands 'anti-terrorism' operation against pro-Russians. This mentions the overall anti-terrorist operation, and the Odessa incident (even described as "brutal violence," which is not how usually you describe an accidental self-immolation), but doesn't claim the latter was any part of the former. But it does pass on Parubiy's promise that his forces would now push an "active stage of the operation in other towns (other than - Odessa?) where extremists and terrorists are carrying out illegal activities." --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Interim president Oleksandr Turchynov seems to divorce the two: “I have signed a decree for two days of mourning in Ukraine for the heroes who died in the course of the anti-terrorist operation and also for those who died in the tragic events in Odessa.” (citing: Al-Jazeera - good reporting from the scene) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic] (talk) 10:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One source connecting the two - 3 May, Odessa: How a peaceful rally turned into anti-terrorism operation - is from Civic Solidarity, pro-good-things group. Their narrative starts with:
 * Russia continues attempts to destabilise ... with the help of diversionists and militants. ... in Odessa local inhabitants strongly repulsed an attack of armed pro-Russian militants. As the result 46 people died ... attack on a peaceful pro-Ukrainian rally ... pro-Ukrainian activists stood the attack and began a counter-attack ... According to witnesses, pro-Ukrainian activists tried to help people who barricaded in the building to get out, but the latter shot back in return.

Whatever planning and legality there was, the May 2 Odessa ATO is again passed off as an impromptu action by "local inhabitants" whose hand was forced by Russian scum. And with that forced hand, they again are portrayed as doing nothing, except to try and help stop the terrorists from killing themselves. But they failed, sadly, and then praised each other for the "liquidation" in "self-defense" of the "Colorado beetles" that, again, they didn't do! It was legal, and it didn't ever happen! --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (sorry I keep making the same points over and over - trying to curtail it. Also, this whole section is worth front-page treatment soon, with a bit of cleanup and maybe filling in some gaps) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

A fascinating May 18 Voice of Russia article gives some context:
 * Last week the Odessa regional council outlawed the presence of illegal armed groups on its territory, according to Itar-Tass.
 * The Odessa city authorities claimed they've removed the militants from checkpoints surrounding the city. "There should be no radicals on the city streets, that’s what I think about the Right Sector. I believe that this group is being funded by some people with an agenda. There is no ideology there, everywhere these guys show up the provocations begin," regional governor Igor Palitsa said.
 * ... However, former regional governor appointed by Kiev, Vladimir Nemirovsky, claimed that the presence of armed radicals in the city was necessary in order to "keep the local police under control." Following that statement, the self-appointed secretary of the Ukraine's Security Council, Andrei Parubiy, visited the radicals and provided them with body armor and other gear.

This must be where his quote is from, not May 2 - "illegal" armed radical groups were ordered to leave, and he argued the ATO ones, apparently the same Right Sector, etc. - were legal, and even necessary, given the threat posed by the "terrorists" and their collaborators in the police. Just when is still unclear - Parubiy's visit we know of to deliver vests was at the end of April. And as explained below, there was worry about and moves against the militants - by Odessa's police - back to early April. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Policing the Police?
On May 4, the police shief Petr (Pyotr) Lutsyuk (Lutsyk), was fired. Just why is a little confused although the events two days prior are obviously connected somehow. USA Today, May 5: "Odessa Police Chief Petr Lutsyuk was fired Saturday. Yatsenyuk said investigators will determine the cause of the breakdown in police and security forces that allowed the unrest to become so deadly. But he also promised that prosecutors will bring to justice all Russian-backed organizers and instigators." Human Rights Watch - jointly with Amnesty International calling for an independent investigation - found that "in reaction to the events of May 2, on May 4 Acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk blamed police officers for the failure to prevent casualties and fired the Odessa police chief and deputy chief." It's unclear from whom they should have acted against if they had moved rightly. Anti-war added he was fired "for what (Yatseniuk) called potentially criminal failure to stop the pro-Russia protests in the city." These had been ongoing for days or weeks. Until the right-wing mobs showed up, these actions consisted of peacefully gathering signatures for a peaceful referendum.

Human Rights Watch properly emphasized the question "why the policing that day was so inadequate, in particular why the police were apparently so unprepared for the confrontation,... police failed to take action to prevent the violence," again unclear who, as "both sides" are vaguely blamed. One witness told them “the police just stood there, they saw people fighting violently but said that they won't intervene until they receive an order to do so.” This might suggest the chief approved of the violence, or there may be another reason policemen would say that. Al Jazeera's reporter there noticed an "extremely angry crowd" demanding the release of over 100 massacre survivors who were arrested, "chanting fascists, fascists, fascists." This report added "the people there did not accept Kiev's version of events," but rather "place the blame on the government in Kiev," and seemed to feel the locals might blame the chief, although "the mourning period and firing of Lutsyuk would not reduce the tension in the city."

In fact, the latter should only add to the impression of a fascist takeover; it seems the police chief was an ally of the anti-Maidan camp, and had actively opposed the Fascist mobs that might also be the "anti-terror operation." Voice of Russia reported on a rally on May 18 to protest the massacre and oppose fascism - they cleared out "when rumors spread about radicals heading there to attack the federalization proponents once again," noting that these groups are "at the beck and call" of the Kiev-approved authorities. This article states of the police chief:
 * Petr Lutsyuk, Odessa police chief who was fired after the tragedy, demanded that the Right Sector militants sent from Kiev leave the city just before the riots started. "There were a large number of people in Kiev who were left without oversight and it was decided to send them to Odessa. We don’t need that here. They came to our city and they destabilize the situation here," he said while speaking to the regional council representatives on April 4.
 * Lutsyuk pointed out numerous conflicts between the radicals and locals, and reported about a large cache of weapons and munitions belonging to the latter that was discovered by police.

April 4 is not "just before" the May 2 riots, anyway, but it seems he had warned in advance of the dangers of these thug gangs. Then as soon as his overridden fears were proven truer than anyone imagined, he was sacked, it almost seems, for failing to take care of the victims himself before then. Civic Solidarity leans the same way, and says of Lutsyuk:
 * The head of the Odessa city police was fired as local law enforcements openly supported pro-Russian militants. There are photo and video reports that show police officers were present during a pre-attack briefing for pro-Russian activists. Ukrainian authorities do not rule out that representatives of law enforcement services will face criminal liability for the events in Odessa and Donetsk as some of the top officers are suspected to be recruited and paid by pro-Russian militants.

We've seen a photo, of course. - a policeman talking to the - whoever those really were. We don't know who this is or what they were thinking, but broadly, there are three options:
 * 1) an anti-Maidan police chief helping anti-Maidan militants for their (debatable) part in the violence
 * 2) a right-leaning officer organizing the fake provocateurs, presumably not meaning to be seen
 * 3) just another right sector type like the militants, meaning to be seen in his police costume to implicate the police in option 1 (or this and option 2 at the same time)

Also of interest is who Kiev replaced Lutsyuk with. A dissenting comment beaneath a lame faux-leftist report adds that Odessa's mayor "appointed a replacement who took part in the burning of the trade building." If they did pick a man involved in the lynch mob action, then they took two opportunities to reward it - '''first they picked the mob itself. ''' A May 5 Reuters report announced:
 * Kiev drafted police special forces to the southwestern port city of Odessa to halt a feared westward spread of rebellion. Ukraine said the Odessa force, based on "civil activists", would replace local police who had failed to tackle rebel actions at the weekend. Its dispatch was a clear signal from Kiev that, while tackling rebellion in the east, it would vigorously resist any sign of a slide to a broader civil war.

And, as Voice of Russia reported:
 * former regional governor appointed by Kiev, Vladimir Nemirovsky, claimed that the presence of armed radicals in the city was necessary in order to "keep the local police under control. Following that statement, the self-appointed secretary of the Ukraine's Security Council, Andrei Parubiy, visited the radicals and provided them with body armor and other gear. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: that's not the May 2 "mob" chosen to replace the chief, except for maybe - if they'd actually been sent two days earlier, had unofficially retired Lutsyuk for the day on the 2nd, etc. ... these things seem vaguely possible, worth considering. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Militants with red armbands

 * Andrey Ivanchenko
 * 3. Militants of unknown origin (hereinafter simply militants) - armed men in camouflage uniforms with red armbands, some with St. George ribbons.
 * Very suspicious that after the "disappearance" of militants with red armbands, appeared on the scene militants SS. I'm not saying that these were the same people. But ... Who were these "strange militants" - provocateurs who attacked the "ultras" and supporters of the Maidan? And it's the most exciting question! The key to an accurate understanding of what happened.
 * Eyewitnesses to Odessa carnage: Pro-Russian side, armed for war, started shooting – Olena Goncharova, Kyiv Post, May 3, 2014
 * Alexey Albu, leader of anti-fascist ‘Borotba’ Odessa, who was severely injured in the later events at the Trade Union Building, reports that the men with the red armbands were his fellow activists of the "Defenders of Odessa". In a more detailed report, Borotba members give their version of what happened that day:


 * On May 2, under the pretext of the so-called march ‘For unity of Ukraine’ (that was dated to football match ‘Chernomorets’ – ‘Metallist’) – the paramilitary squads of Ukrainian nationalist were brought together to Odessa from all over the country. They arrived by buses and by trains. From the very beginning – when they just started to gather on ‘Sobornaya’ square – among ordinary ultra-right fans too many well-equipped paramilitaries could be seen. They had shields, helmets, bats, traumatic and service weapons. Mostly - men about 30-40 years old who were evidently not football fans. Some of them had shields where it was written: ’14-th hundred of Maidan self-guard’. And these nationalist paramilitaries became the main striking force of bloody massacre of Odessa residents on ‘Kulikovo pole’ square.


 * In total there were more than thousand of nationalists that participated in the march and the slaughter that followed it. Local residents of Odessa were the minority among them, while the majority – far-right paramilitaries that were brought together there. They could be identified in particular by dialect (not typical for Odessa region), however many of them openly acknowledged and told where they came from. Local Odessa fans of ‘Chernomorets’ team have left the march at the moment when clashes started – they came just for traditional march to the stadium and when they realized that ‘visitors’ and provocateurs led them to beat local people – the majority of ‘Chernomorets’ fans (identified by black-blue scarves of Odessa club) – immediately left the so-called ‘peaceful’ march. [...]


 * When the column of nationalists marched along Grecheskaya street - a few (some 200-250 people) activists of local Odessa militia tried to stop them. But soon the opponents of nationalists were pelted with stones, bottles and stun grenades. There were heard gunshots. The activist of "Borotba" Ivan has got a gunshot wound into the belly from a military weapon. Then activists and members of Odessa militia tried to escape in the shopping centre "Athena" in the ‘Greek’ square. A crowd of far-right nationalists demanded to start a carnage against them. The far-right paramilitaries started immediately to prepare Molotovs on the square in order to set fire to the shopping center with barricaded Odessa militia members inside it. Police officers managed to save the lives of activists as they drove police cars directly to the entrance of the shopping centre.


 * Then the crowd of nationalist headed to the square ‘Kulikovo Pole’, where there was a camp of opponents to Kiev junta. Activists of ‘Borotba’, along with other activists and ordinary Odessa residents, were on duty that day in the protest camp. In total there were some 200 people in the camp and half of them - women and elderly men. [...]

Via Saker:
 * For those of you who can understand Russian, here is an extremely interesting report about the "red-banded" infiltrators seen amongst the pro-Russian, pro-junta and even the police


 * Бойня в Одессе результат провокации

Here is a full length version of the video used for proof of on both sides. The Odessa resistance first stands at barricade behind the police line. Police retreat undef Molotov cocktail fire and end up in the same line at the barricade. Resistance fires AK-47s from the merged "police" line. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * https://vk.com/video245916173_168423862

Anti-terrorist operation uses red armbands:
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlFLminrZgk#t=75

Via Antimaydan Odessa on VK:
 * ''Fuchedzhi told who was behind the unrest in Odessa Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Oak (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2, 2014, which killed more than forty people. This he told the National Bureau of Investigation Ukraine. According Fuchedzhi Yulia Tymoshenko appointed Oak "looking" in Odessa. In this capacity, Oak secretly directs law enforcement agencies of the region. 2 May Odessa police had not stopped the unrest as a result of a number of indications Oak transmitted regional leadership through the cupola MIA Oleg Babenko, who is an assistant and "right hand" of the Oak. Babenko came from instructions not to intervene, as well as to collect all the police leadership to "meeting" and discuss common issues behind closed doors with mobile phones switched off. Prosecutor Igor Borshulyak Odessa region, ordered the police to release the arrested zachischikov bloodshed - it is also a man of the Oak. Fuchedzhi claims he is one of the entire leadership of the Odessa Police was May 2 not in the office and on the street with people and tried to stop the violence, negotiated, tried to reconcile the conflicting parties. In addition, he reminded of the duty to other policemen who were inactive on orders from above. In response, he heard: "Orders are orders, Lutsyuk ordered not to interfere with him, and there is no connection."

From a comment at the Vineyard Saker: "As always, the two sides in a conflict will report opposite truths. On a Czech site that I read because of its altogether civil exchange of wildly differing opinions, I found this article of an eye-witness of the Odessa massacre on the second of May."
 * ''  On the second of May, I went shopping in the streets in the centre, when I happened on a mass of people, about two to three hundred appearing from a side street. Most of them were between 25 and 35 years old, mostly if not wearing black, then wearing dark clothes and many of them wearing so called camouflage clothes.  It's also important to note that they were armed. Almost all of them were carrying sticks (baseball bats, tool handles etc.), but also chains, knives, even shields, helms, high army boots, arm and leg pads, perhaps even bulletproof vests, and almost all of them wore masks.  First I thought these must have been some sort of film cameos, but when I walked up to them, I noticed red bands around their arms (which reminded me of the militia from socialist times), but in all they made a rather criminal impression being led (and they were really being led!), like some sort of Sudeten German squad in the Czech borderlands, to assault a police station.  And when they started shouting in chorus slogans such as "Berkut" and "fascism won't prevail", it was clear who they were. Gently said, these were so-called pro-Russian so-called activists, in Czech "Russian nazis", chanting tragicomically "ФАШИЗМ НЕ ПРОЙДЕТ". (translated from Czech)  The writer goes on saying that he observed them heading to the football stadion, looking for a fight with the fans there. He describes how they flee from the crowd towards the building of the Labour Union, where they start throwing molotov cocktails to the people standing outside. All in all, a very different account from the video you link to.  In these times, it's difficult to get a clear understanding of what is happening in Ukraine. Many Czechs don't like Russians for historical reasons (also, many of them don't like Ukrainians either because they are willing to work for a third of the pay Czechs will accept), so I don't take this account at face value.  Still, it's worthwhile knowing what others are saying, I think.''
 * The last part of this account slips too far into "omniscient narrator" mode to be credible, but the first part I tend to believe - journalists were performed for, quite likely. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Odessa Anti-Maidan
In April Odessa had a non-violent defense force – non-violent as in non-lethal. In all physical appearances they were indistinguishable from the Maidan hundreds, carrying the same type of weapons, outfit and shields. I believe this symmetry was carefully calculated to avoid any escalation in the level of violence.

At first I had problems recognizing the anti-Maidan and assumed they were Maidan forces. Then I noticed the different colors and patches. In general, the resistance in Odessa avoided Russian colors and preferred Soviet colors. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Earlier clashes
 * 30.03.2014 Одесса - первое столкновение РМ с националистами (Odessa 30.03.2014 - first encounter with the nationalists PM)
 * Столкновение Майдана и Антимайдана в Одессе. (And Maidana clash Antimaydana in Odessa. – Photos) – April 10, 2014
 * ''Today in Odessa because of people's deputy and presidential candidate Oleg Tsarev, which Evromaydana activists blocked at the hotel, there was a fight. During the fight suffered at least one person.

Motives?

 * Ukrainian Defense News Network on Facebook
 * ''According to the reports, on April 28, 2014 the leaders of Kievan junta Olexander Turchinov and Arseniy Yatsenyuk received a confidential cable from Washington urging them to neutralize by any means the threat of secession of Odessa region. It was underlined, that in case of the lost control over this strategic port in the Black Sea, new Kiev's authorities would not be able to reckon on further US, EU and IMF diplomatic and financial support. At the same time the US intelligence agents in Kiev and Odessa were tasked to provide all necessary assistance and expertice to their Ukrainian wards to perform a special operation aimed to nip the anti-fascist resistance in Odessa.


 * Note: "The reports" unexplained. A comment there asked, and UDNN responded "An insider report from Kiev. We can't disclose the source." Could be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Mikola Volkov and M. Gordienko

 * RT, May 4: Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape - identifies commandant "Mikola," shooting at the building, and phoning in a lie that he was unarmed and had been shot in the leg.
 * ONE OF THE ACTORS IN THE ODESSA POGROM WAS IDENTIFIED – UKRAINIAN COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, May 9, 2014 - This identifies the subject as Mikola Volkov, a former criminal somehow now liaising with "Security" chief Parubiy 4 days before the massacre. He was handed bulletproof vests, later seen wearing one. That might've been Parubiy he was calling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:43, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

This is the talk page, right? So blah blah ... this guy to me looked like an off-duty cop. Bulletproof vest, blue shirt, little pistol, and hanging out with a cop while placing a call to (was that straight to Interior Minister Avakov I heard he placed a call to?) Here they say he's a criminal guy, somehow deputized to be in this pogrom. at a level sufficient to be at a meeting with Andriiy Parubiy a couple days earlier. Is there anything to his cop appearance, or is that just coincidence? Was this criminal thug deputized as some kind of semi-cop, liaison with the mob type or something? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know who originally identified him but this excellent German article published on the same day as the one above has him, and another man who was seen all over the place agitating the crowd, and with Wolkow, and with Parubij. That's a certain M. Gordienko, a self-proclaimed Maidan activist with not much more information about him. Screenshot of his facebook page, talking about a meeting with the Interior ministry four days after the events. --CE (talk) 10:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * МВД продолжает зачистку "Правого Сектора": задержан одиозный "сотник Мыкола" (видео) (MIA continues to sweep "right sector": detained odious "centurion Mykola") – Russkaya Vesna, 28 May 2014
 * Arrested, then released? --Petri

G-translated:
 * According to the online edition of the Odessa "Timer", May 27, militants " Evromaydana " blocked the Interior Ministry building in Kiev , demanding the release of their accomplice detained in Odessa Nikolai Volkov , known as " Mykola centurion ," who is suspected of organizing riots.

(Is it Nikola or Mikola then?)
 * Note that today in the Odessa Police denied information about his murder of some anti-Nazi underground activists .

But for balance, he's been detained, maybe for a bit even, over the undeniable. Those he killed probably went underground starting the night of May 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Igor Kolomoisky

 * RT: Kiev protégé allegedly behind Mariupol and Odessa massacres – leaked tapes
 * Video: Igor Kolomoisky behind Odessa massacre
 * The Key Man Behind the May 2nd Odessa Ukraine Trade Unions Building Massacre: His Many Connections to the White House, Eric Zuesse, May 18, 2014

Boiko Brothers

 * Captured Pro-Kiev Member confesses Killings in Kiev, uploaded Jun 9,2014
 * Interrogation of Evgeniy Viktorovich Boiko, taken captive by Lugansk People's Republic. He says he and his older brother, Dmitry Viktorovich Boiko (a member of maidan self-defense forces) were among the group entering the Trade Union Building and killing people. They brought the corpses to a forest. He counted 99. He himself claims to have murdered 10, with a submachine gun in the back of their heads, "executed". Difficult to say what to make of it. On the one hand, the guy is obviously borderline retarded and could likely be made to say anything, on the other hand he's exactly the kind of person that would in the "right" circumstances kill ten in a rage without a second thought. Well, the interviewers now have the brother's name and phone number. --CE (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Found one Dimitry Boiko, Kiev, born 1987, on twitter. He uses an app that posts when he's at certain places. Has been to Tbilisi, Georgia from 17-25.Mai, back in Kiev at a car wash three days later and next at a food store with four buddies on Jun 7. Would fit a trip to the east. Nothing interesting and not much at all for the earlier year. And his vKontakte profile makes him look completely harmless, although certainly "pro-Western" (ridiculous cars ;o)). --CE (talk) 18:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Other

 * Милиция задержала «евромайдановца», подозреваемого в расстреле одесситов 2 мая (Police detained "evromaydanovtsa" suspect in the shooting Odessites May 2) – 05/19/2014
 * Доказательства: Убийца с Майдана в Доме Профсоюзов (Proof: Maidan assassin in the House of Trade Unions) – Святослав Хоробрый, May 21, 2014
 * http://vk.com/id246578562?w=wall-42832638_12901
 * Traces photos to identifiable face.
 * That is a pretty good match - I'm mostly convinced whoever that guy is (someone will have his name) can be identified and arrested, clubbed to death, whatever. That's one of our "Russian terrorists" "dropping a molotov cocktail on the roof" that is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:36, 24 May 2014 (UTC)


 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPGUJZcpHwk
 * Who is the provocateur in a black coat on this video? I think I saw him somewhere later. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Witnesses
Via Odessa Republic on VK
 * ''Survivor story in the House of Trade Unions: "I ran to the right, and it saved my life." TIMER provides its readers the story of another man who was on the Kulikovo Field and the House of Trade Unions during the tragic events of May 2. According to our source, who wished to remain anonymous first defenders tried to hold a barricade constructed at the entrance to the House of Trade Unions, but the hail of stones soon forced them to retreat into the building. According to the activist, the building has already started to burn, but people still decided to take refuge there. "Why we went into the building - no one knows - says an eyewitness. - The building people diverged who left, who right. I ran to the right, and it saved my life. " In addition, some people ran up the central staircase. According to him, the building was very dark, so the windows were shuttered. When this building was already well smoggy. Some time people tried to sit in their offices, and when suffocating smoke began to penetrate and there, rushed to the stairs. Our interlocutor was lucky he did not run to the central staircase, and to the one that was located in the right wing of the building. There also went along with him for approximately two dozen people. All of them survived. "I immediately began to shout:" Fire, fire! ". But fire came only about an hour and a ladder brought us - says the man - Even when m³ out, I shouted: "Bandera, if you're there, then leave, because burn!." He argues that escaped from House of Trade Unions mainly those who thought to escape from the fire and smoke in the wings of the building, and those who remained in the central part of or tried to climb the central staircase, died.

Tatiana:
 * KyivPost: Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories
 * “He was standing on the right of me. I could hear shouting: ‘We’ll kill you’. My face was to the wall and I couldn’t see, but something hit me on the head, I don’t know what it was,” said Tetiana. Her hair caught on fire but the man next to her put it out, saving her life, she says.

Alyona:
 * Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly seen in video footage, were not from their group.


 * However, Alyona says protesters inside may have been making Molotov cocktails, in panic, but were not very competent and failed to throw them outside. But she thinks it impossible that the building was set on fire from the inside. ... She did not see any flames. ... she and four women and eight men barricaded themselves inside the fourth floor office because they could hear people coming to attack them from the corridor.

Clashes
I'm not sure how to create a proper sub-page for Odessa Trade Union massacre/Clashes (did the Bodelan one even get done right? or is it just the subpages section that's missing?) but this subject deserves a page with space to breathe. Who's seen doing what and when is confusing and worth digesting and mapping, etc. I had some starter material besides this, but it's not ready yet, at least to start a front page. Petri strarted us out with the location stuff and I added a map. Actually, I didn't write an intro yet either. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Locations
A useful satellite image shows three locations of the early afternoon clashes near the football stadium. The park to the left and the first clash bottom left can be seen in the UStream video of the unity rally and first clash. The top-left corner of the image is here on Wikimapia. The Trade Union Building where the massacre occurred around sunset, is around 1.5 km SSE from there. The inset map shows the areas in relation to each other.

The distance between the early and later violence is marked, and the details of this middle portion seem to be less clearly reported. The Guardian's Howard Amos reported vaguely that "the confrontation quickly escalated into a series of skirmishes as the two sides played a deadly cat and mouse game in the centre of the city."

It ended at Kolukivo Polje, the square with the Hall of Trade Unions and the protest camp for proponents of federalism or independence from Kiev. There, of course, at least 38 and perhaps over 100 people were killed by fire and smoke, possibly some kind of poisonous gas, and by more direct violence, after they had entered the building and the enraged mob came in after them.