Talk:Houla:Victims

Watch for Casts
I've been thinking about the Muawiya Al-Sayed household. The detail about Ahmed's broken leg stands out as one of those things included to explain something we might have seen (like Ali's uncle on TV). I haven't noticed if there's a young adult male victim with a cast on his leg anywhere in the video record. But if there is and anyone else stumbles across it first, please take note. The leaving behind of the Aref Al-Sayed victims was clearly to "prove" the government held that area, and that's why they couldn't get the bodies. That was supposed to suggest the government did it, and the impression was picked up by the UN CoI whoput the front-line of rebel access totally north of both Al-Sayed homes. So... if there's any evidence they took possession of bodies from the Muawiya home, right across from the hospital they can't have conquered, that would obviously be a big clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:17, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

DCHRS
I have grave doubts about the credibility of this Damascus Center who provided our victim list. I didn't notice before, but they're a member of FIDH/IFHR. Libya's branch of that (LLHR) was notoriously shameless with regards to rebel crimes blamed on the Libyan government forces. Also the Syrian Network for human rights, I think, is one of the observatories re-named. If it's the joke one, I'm all for that. The names here are based on something, and worth considering, but for purposes of getting things right, I'll see about getting us a more reliable list and eventually comparing this to it. --Caustic Logic 18:12, 1 July 2012 (EST)

SANA victim photos
The SANA report is only linked to the cached copy on Google. I understand this to mean you have not been able to access the originals. It also has photographs missing from the cache. I wonder if you have seen these? Some of the photos may be screen shots from rebel videos, some may be original Syrian Army photographs. (Saved copies.) -- Petri Krohn 12:17, 4 October 2012 (EST)
 * New Massacres by al-Qaeda-linked Terrorist Groups against Families in al-Shumariyeh and Taldo in Homs Countryside – May 26, 2012
 * Saved where? No, can't see that link. --Caustic Logic 21:49, 4 October 2012 (EST)
 * I have seen a big cache of photos at Lebanese forum A Separate [sic] State of Mind. Two separate batches (one w/link to the other). If these are the same, I have them all. If not, will want. Great work video cataloging by the way, some new things to me there. --Caustic Logic 22:49, 4 October 2012 (EST)
 * For the record, I could eventually see and save these additional images and we've found even more. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Al-Shumariya
The place pointed out by Adam as Al-Shumariya is on the road to the water woks, at an elevation of 420m, 100 meters above Taldou. The geography is a strong indication that it is populated by Alewites, what ever its name is. It would have come under attack if the water works was attacked from the south. -- Petri Krohn 19:39, 4 October 2012 (EST)


 * Yep. I think that just might be it, though there a few leaps in there. It's definitely open to question, but I think this is a big clue. --Caustic Logic 22:45, 4 October 2012 (EST)


 * Saw your forum post - Samalil is here, two villages apart. --CE 23:25, 4 October 2012 (EST)

More videos
Who are these victims? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Hula 27-5 bodies of the new 4 children from Hula massacre
 * Published on May 27, 2012 by Monther Hrfosh


 * We don't know generally who's who, and these four don't even look familiar from the big photo set at the Lebanese forum or the few videos I've watched. Four young children, one just a baby with a hole in his/her head. They're quite possibly from the same family, likely an AbdulRazaq one, but who knows? Interesting the bloody neck on the one-doesn't really look like a sliced throat, but oddly someone holds his hand over as if he doesn't want it seen (0:18), while everyone want us to see the other two kids with holes in the chest/abdomen. It goes in the file and if I notice them again, they should be familiar. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * At first I thought they were Ali's sisters, handed over the rebel side. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "New" and a similar number make it a reasonable impression, but no. Also, that family only had one sister, Rasha, as given. I was confused by the SANA video, where a pink ribbon made one boy appear like a girl, but that was actually a head wound (the raw footage helps). Two boys, apparently, like Ali said - he seems to be accurate there, but perhaps not for the usual straightforward reason of being their actual brother. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Interesting videos from May 25 on Meriem021 channel:
 * ‫الحولة تبريد جثث الشهداء بالثلج 26-5-2012‬ (Houla cooling of the bodies...) – 1 view!
 * ‫‫"الحولة خمس نساء و طفلة من ضحايا المجزرة 25-5-2012‬" – Houla five women and children victim...

Googling around brings up strange word "تؤازرها", image search says "fire." Ended up on this forum thread from May 27 with FSA propaganda postings. One links to this video: Homs Hula 26.5 sister deposited brother martyr. I do not think this martyr is a massacre victim, more like KIA. Body seems to be lying on mosque floor. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:57, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Burial uncut
Came across this while looking for new videos as Leith announced this morning that "A terrorist headquarter belonging to Jabhat al-Nusra was destroyed in the town of Taldo near Al-Houla". The channels are almost all dead - except Jalal who has uploaded two weeks ago and this guy who is uploading old material, mostly from 2011 (Hassan Husein channel is also still active). This is 28 min uncut from someone walking around between mosque with victims and burial scene, with UN observers and the known protagonists around. I don't think we've seen this before. --CE (talk) 12:33, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Hula massacre of children buried under the eyes of observers, uploaded by Amr Faour (thepain12a), March 28, 2014


 * Wow, still new material? The two-year is coming up, and I plan to release something new. I'll have to check this out, thanks. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Later Alleged Victim Photos
Petri has brought these up somewhere, but not here, and I just stumbled acorss them again, so... Throughout 2013 and 2014, the Facebook page Hula Massacre continued, especially at each of 2 anniversaries now, to remind people of the massacre I don't mind people being reminded of. It has a bunch of newer atrocity pictures intermingled with Houla stuff, some old stuff recycled, some of it new. The informational centerpiece is an essay of some detail, in Arabic, with a map (little new info), a brief explanation of the rebel story, the controversy (UN probe, FAZ etc.) and countering that  mainly with a re-telling of what the Spiegel witnesses said.

Later, on the two year mark, they posted some new photos of valleged victims we've never seen before. There is plenty of room for question, but I consider these most likely genuine Houla Massacre victims.


 * 50+ Children Killed by Assad disinfographic
 * photo montage alone, color - seems to have partial float-over tags with names - not working well here. June 20, 2013 posting Jan 3, 2013
 * man and girl, wrapped, laid across the hood of a UN vehicle - this is a genuine shot. The man is seen elsewhere on UNSMIS video, eyes taped over, maybe gone. The girl, I don't know. There's red writing on the hood beneath them. Creepy.
 * Abdulrazaq massacre array photo - 12 children, as seen on May 25 video, a bit clearer here - is that natural daylight? Of the 25th or the 26th? Hmmm...
 * young girl, shot through the bridge of her nose
 * young child, no marks
 * an older child with hacked-apart face - hacked diagonally, shot from the back, major exit wound - order unclear.
 * A woman, on the pavement, bloody (neck area?) covered