Talk:Turkey-Greece Border Crisis (2020)

So I started looking into this on Twitter with a main thrust, but had to check a bunch of other things, gathered a list, lost it, partly re-built it, etc. There should be an ACLOS page, I decided. I haven't read many articles, wondered what the rest of us might be reading and seeing. Here's most of what I found most interesting:

Overview video, critical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbbu_favdw4

How the people got mobilized: There's much on official sponsorship of bus and taxi rides for those wishing to leave Turkey. What's more interesting is some added incentive to leave.

An Afghan man says he and others ("we") were jailed in Turkey for one month until "today" when the police not only released them but "police brought us here and told us that the gates are opened." https://twitter.com/Hunter__1450/status/1234322543907086338

Gray Wolves Mob https://twitter.com/LilithQoS/status/1234354419820568576 Video shows #Erdogan supporters who are mostly from "Grey Wolves" far-right & fascist organization attacking workplaces & homes of #Syrian refugees in south of #Turkey beating them & looting their shops. They attack Syrian refugees to force them to leave #Turkey & invade #Greece! https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1234443837096984576 The militant extremist and Erdogan-supporting Turkish organization "The Grey Wolves" has been put into action. They are now attacking migrant homes and businesses (vandalizing & looting) across south-western Turkey in an attempt to force migrants to pack up and leave for #Greece

Another video from an upper floor shows what seems to be two men being separately beaten in the street …

Gray Wolves cops at the disembarking end: https://twitter.com/ManotoNews/status/1235196271180177408?s=20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpnB4fg56Fc Man in red-and-black sweater (no markings?) urges the people to disembark the bus, explaining "the Turkish military will take you to the Greek side by boat." They don't want to go to Greece, a woman says (these are said to be Iranians). "Why did you come here then?" That's either not clearly answered OR answered with "unjust! Police lie!" He insists "everyone is going to get out now. I will beat up the ones who don't," emphasizing the point by pulling out a pistol. When they still don't all leave, he cocks his pistol next to a boy's head. There's a Turkish flag decal on the handle's butt. "There is no going back from here on. Get out! Get out!" The other man with sunglasses holds (a taser?) and has a police nightstick, the word POLIS on his trousers, "Turk" on one shoulder, Gray Wolves insignia on the other.

beating in a field, said to be Turkish soldiers (in camo, not that police black) beating and pushing a man in a direction he seems reluctant to walk. Poorly shot fom a great distance through a tree. https://twitter.com/left2kolou/status/1235984711744458752 Enough is enough. Here is video of turkish soldiers brutally beating up migrants. Not staged propaganda. Real. RT please.

Naval encounters: Turkish vessel trying to ram a Geek one https://twitter.com/Cassandra_JD/status/1236266275896205312 claim https://twitter.com/MillenniumsNews/status/1236252881529049088 no evidence provided for what the Greek vessel was doing before - maybe as others claim trying to stop boats of human smugglers carrying #Syrian refugees to #Greece
 * 1) Turkish Coast Guard: We sent back a #Greek boat trying to send refugees back to Turkish borders.

Greek Coast Guard vessel threatening a raft https://twitter.com/ferhatalkana/status/1235495652458516480 The Coast Gaud vessel shakes th Unless someone stole a Coast Guard vessel, this looks bad. It sends a dangerous wake the raft's way and bumps into it. Apparent shots of some kind fired into the water. A private boat also intercedes, with dark-dressed locals who hit the people (lightly) with sticks. The supposed efforts to sink seem to refer to the pole jabbing, but it's not clear that was the intent or was likely.

Turkish Coast Guard vessel ramming into a raft, reportedly to prevent their turning back. Number 72 on side. A crewman is preparing a fishing-type net for some reason as it smacks into the rafter, before it can turn away. https://twitter.com/Hevallo/status/1235933808001789955 https://twitter.com/DnaGreek/status/1234951328239116290
 * This video is dated: posted as new back on 18 January, 2020, prior to the current events, so meaning unclear.

http://en.protothema.gr/turkish-coast-guard-ram-boat-with-syrian-refugees-video/ --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:48, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

raft crossings then banned by Erdogan decree 7 March https://twitter.com/goncatokyol/status/1236222790291935233

Fake News stories to check

 * fatally shot Syian man - worth a good look (no promise on my part)
 * https://forensic-architecture.org/programme/news/joint-statement-on-the-ongoing-violence-at-the-greece-turkey-border - "The Killing of Muhammad al Arab in the Greek borders while army and police were using ammunition" He was "hit by rubber bullets"
 * https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/04/greece/eu-respect-rights-ease-suffering-borders# ""allegedly killed by a rubber bullet shot by Greek border guards as he tried to cross into Greece irregularly. Human Rights Watch has been unable to verify the facts concerning this particular incident."
 * https://www.en24.news/u/2020/03/migrants-the-last-moments-of-mohamed-killed-by-the-greek-army.html “The projectile, for me a rubber bullet, hit him in the head, sighs Razakhan. He immediately collapsed."
 * https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/migrants-used-as-pawns-as-eu-takes-a-hard-line-1.4192941 The shaky footage was posted by BBC journalist Mughira al-Sharif, who said it showed the last moments of a Syrian man shot in the neck by Greek border guards as he tried to cross from Turkey.
 * https://www.arknews.net/en/node/17346 activists "pointed out that border guards used live bullets from hunting rifles to force the refugees to retreat, killing a Syrian youth and wounding others."
 * The rubber bullet version is far more logical; there seems to be no visible wound at all where the round would enter. Only his nose is bleeding, but it's intact. I'd guess he was killed accidentally by a round hitting his nose, causing a fatal brain injury. I read that this is not possible from a punch, as I'd heard as a kid. And I didn't find a clear answer yet, but I imagine it's possible with a rubber bullet.
 * https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18165/can-you-punch-someones-nose-into-their-brain
 * https://www.rt.com/news/413622-rubber-bullet-fatalities-ucberkeley/ Study: Rubber bullets cause fatal injuries in three in every 100 victims. Generally, these are accidental, if sometimes negligent.
 * It also seems possible, if unlikely IMO, the man was playing dead with some fake blood applied to his nose.
 * Either way, his true identity may be concealed; Mohamed the Arab could be a real name, but also makes a great made-up name, and it's some coincidence if he happened to be one of the highlighted Syrian refugees, when it seems just a small percentage of those at the border are actually Syrian. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

https://twitter.com/johnparma4/status/1236257297137049600 --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:39, 7 March 2020 (UTC) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * tear gas scenes w/kids having smoke blown in their eyes - two examples:
 * https://twitter.com/jay2kQ17/status/1234429490245357569
 * https://twitter.com/HumanVsDemons/status/1236743231011991553
 * Hungary photo: https://twitter.com/Amreenrajavi/status/1234789102861422592
 * drowning people: drowning people who pause to look at the cameraman on shore a few feet away probably are just sitting in shallow water, as the one guy standing up in it proves. (not clear if this is even current, however)
 * They took our clothes: https://twitter.com/evelina_bee1/status/1236847645957726208
 * March 7, TRT reporter Semir Sejvofic thinks the guards are shooting live rounds at them because they have a camera. Refugees shield him and seem to be laughing. Firecrackers? Two item are handed to him to show what's being fired at them - he has no idea what's going on and seems to start laughing himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTlo1npJPto

Island of Lesbos

 * Greece: Syrian refugees arrive on the island of Lesbos -Yandex & Newstube.ru, February 28, 2020
 * Greece: Refugees come ashore on Lesbos as Turkey reportedly allows departures - Newstube.ru, February 28, 2020

--Resup (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Blaming
[https://www.state.gov/interview-with-with-ian-lee-of-cbs-news/ US Amb. Jeffrey]: ...'' everywhere there’s been a ceasefire, the Russians have found or claimed to find terrorists, and thus, the Russians and the regime roll in ...I do not think that the Russians and Assad are going to win in Idlib, and the reason is the Turks cannot back down or they will have 3 million new refugees on top of the almost 4 million that they have now from Syria, and they cannot physically handle it. That’s what we saw at the border, and I do not think that there is any way possible for them to cope with that, so therefore they’re going to have to use their considerable military force to bring this offensive to a halt. Q. So you’re saying that the Turks, with the backing of the United States, will use military force to stop this offensive from taking place in Idlib? '''Amb. Jeffrey:''' That’s exactly what they’re doing now.

'' Q: HTS is the dominant player in Idlib province. HTS is a designated terrorist organization. They’re al-Qaida in all but name. Can the United States work with them? '''Amb. Jeffrey''': We do not work with them. As you said, they are an al-Qaida offshoot. On the other hand, you notice in our various counterterrorism strikes into Idlib, we haven’t targeted them because we do not see them focused on international terror. Rather, they are focused on fighting the Assad regime. ...the Russians themselves ... simply unleash barrel bombs on the civilian population.

--Resup (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC)