Talk:Mariupol market shelling

NAF advances to Mariupol
Does anybody have a clue what's going on, any curious chatter etc? I do not read/hear anything definite, just some unclear noise. --Resup (talk) 12:08, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Seems to be under Right Sector control, so no protests going on. They had volunteers digng anti-tank ditches some tim ago, but I've not heard fresh news about this for a while. OSCE a few weeks ago mentioned this, and the fact that they could only get about 50 volunteers for the job. Also from OSCE reports, there are checkpoints on every road or track leading to Mariupol (have seen up to #14 mentioned). Oct. 1 they commented most checkpoints are closed to civilian traffic (but said nothing about what traffic DOES get through).
 * "The SMM[monitoring mission] in Mariupol (115km south of Donetsk) met with two representatives of “Youth Union”, a NGO staffed with volunteers. Since 21 August 2014, with funding from the “Rinat Akhmetov Foundation”, the NGO is operating a large logistical centre at the Azovskiy market, from which, according to the interlocutor, some 60 to 80 tons of humanitarian assistance are distributed daily to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions." Have never seen corresponding arrivals of aid mentioned; assume it is not going to the "rebel" areas.
 * On October 5 "Ukrainian checkpoint commanders at various locations to the north and north-east of Mariupol (113 km south of Donetsk city) told the SMM of shelling directed at the checkpoints the previous evening. The SMM – whilst at the checkpoints – neither observed nor heard shelling, nor saw any indication that shelling may have recently taken place."
 * Oct. 6 they reported a doubling of traffic volume from Donetsk into Mariupol in the last 24 hours. without specifying what type of traffic and what actual numbers. KatKan (talk) 12:44, 9 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Tymchuk says 2 columns entering Novoazovsk, about 10 vehicles each, covered (curtain side) trucks, fuel tankers etc,he hints from border area, facing in direction of Mariupol. OSCE reports unusually heavy civilian traffic into Mariupol, Ukie check points say it's Donetsk people going to get pensions and buy food. Nearby villages doing protests, telling check points to move so the villages don't get shelled, they refuse to sign a petition being collected by a Ukie woman. Tweet says told by phone Mariupol hospital seen 200 rape victims. Zakharchenko said they're taking back all their territory. All this to me adds up to, any moment now they might try to take Mariupol, with help of "pensioner shoppers" who stayed in to organise ??? The place is way overdue for being rescued from the Right Sector. And this time no way they can blame any atrocities on anyone else.  funny how checkpoints get shelled but just missed, Greek funeral procession gets hit spot on. They're using spotters with radio and trying to blame the rebels. No moon the next few nights.KatKan (talk) 14:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't know. But with no breakthrough on the diplomatic front with acceptable consequences on the ground, for as long as it stays that way, something else may happen. --Resup (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If I, sitting in Australia, can get a whiff of what's happening in the Ukie "liberated" territories, the guys up close would really know. They are not going to give up or give in and let 3/4 of their people be wiped out, painfully. Every death may not turn people pro-Russian, but will certainly turn many anti-Kiev. Look at this advice from "partisan" leader in Kharkiv. "Our job is to wait for the main forces of the Resistance". KatKan (talk) 20:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Novorossia reports itself standing on the outskirts of Mariupol, seeing the city and not seeing much of a garrison. Seems to be a deadlocked situation, negotiating this with Kiev is close to impossible especially on this issue; they perhaps can just take it, but it kind of feels wrong and they may not looking forward to have all those barking politico dogs another time. So what are they going to do, just sit there and wait for Maidan number 3 (or a Pinochet second coming?). Neither of those appears to be a particularly attractive option. --Resup (talk) 06:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

BBC reports that Poroshenko ordered reinforcements to main cities, including Mariuopol. --Resup (talk) 21:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

UAF shells villages using "Grad" and "Uragan" (+shown on video )--Resup (talk) 23:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

From Cassad @ 21:06 comment and map: Near Mariupol, opolchenie control Lebedinskoe, and try to advance on Vinogradnoe. --Resup (talk) 03:32, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Update on rusvesna. Entitled "Liberation of Mariupol started. Ukrainian Army is in retreat". A photo is provided. Ukrainian source, civilian casualties reported. MSM carry news on that (CNN) --but I do not see reports on Gorlovka or accurate reporting on Donetsk. Cassad: Grads of the junta (Azov/UAF) were fired from the Old Crimea area (according to another version, from the Airport of Mariupol. As a result, smoke from fires covered the outskirts of the city. Locals say that that was under-shot by UAF. Simultaneously, opolchenie is storming junta positions in the area of Vinogradnoe.   --Resup (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The (unconfirmed) story now appears to be that opolchenie was lead to believe there was a position of UAF at the outskirts of the city (another report say Tymchuk spread rumors of tank attack imminent from that area, using social networks). However pro-Kiev forces made preparations (such as turned off water) and left 1/2 hour before the area was hit by shells. A caller to Lifenews correspondent is telling this story. --Resup (talk) 15:42, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Rusvesna: "DPR Army is on the outskirts of Mariupol". --Resup (talk) 14:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Provocation?
Military intelligence of DPR reports: "According to the latest data, in Mariupol a second for the day provocation of  Ukrainian security forces is planned in micro-district Vostochnyi ( Восточный, =East) and other possible areas of our strike: at the moment the opponent starts to pull to the area of the checkpoint infantry detachments; from their bases at  ТЦ "Метро" (= tele (?) center  Metro ) enemy continues to  load into buses fully armed and equipped personnel  in the form of the armed forces of Novorossia with chevrons of DPR . The objective  of those dressed up punishers includes  destruction of the civilian population, infrastructure and communications. This task is given to  the 9 territorial battalion Vinnytsia and SBU. Please residents do not to your homes and remain calm. In the morning the Ukrainian side has already delivered an artillery strike using MLRS (=Grads) from Old Crimea. At 19:45, near the checkpoint "Vostochnyi"  fire was opened with small arms, civilians must immediately go into the building. " Cassad at 20-15--Resup (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

SBU claimed radio intercept of opolchenie discussing shelling checkpoint, knowing that there are nine- story buildings of flats not too far (1.5 km away). Recording sounds fake, studio quality, calm voices seem acted, very few details actually given (like what was actually going on, who are they, and how they learned that something went wrong). One caller has callname "Terrorist",-- very conveniently. --Resup (talk) 19:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Zakahrchenko says they do not intend to storm Mariupol, as they "are not animals, as those in Kiev". But "after Kiev tried to blame opolchenie for their own Grad hit made in error" (from Berdianskoe  Бердянское), he   ordered  to suppress Ukrainian artillery positions to the East from Mariupol.
 * So, disagreement on where this was coming from, Berdianskoe will be to the West, Novoazovsk East, from the market square hit on the Eastern outskirt of the city map. Collateral damage happen even with precision weapons, this is not impossible--yet Porosheko again screams a lot about terrorism. Seem to notice civilian deaths only when its convenient to his cause.  --Resup (talk) 20:17, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

OSCE says those are Grads and Uragans from NE and  East, from opolchenie-controlled area. They say there visited the location. They note that Ukrainian checkpoint number 14 is just several hundred meters away--Resup (talk) 21:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Several directions?
Two dashboard videos emerged. --Resup (talk) 21:21, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Dashboard video geolocated . Direction of blasts, those with direction of plume seen well, appears to be towards the single building, going left to right, and coming from behind on dashboard video. I presume for now that video is from the opposite side of 9 of May street;  or parking lot further West along the road works even better.  If it is somehow in a backyard on the same side. would be different, but I don't think we will get such a view from there as on the video. Viewpoint is shown on yandex map--so that would be fired from the  West or NW.   That is  based on video and geolocation (supplied by commenter). I wonder why OSCE says East--Should have supplied photos.    --Resup (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Second video is now gone (copyright, so named holder should have it) But from the top one, I agree the fireballs show a left-to-right momentum, and maybe a bit away from the camera, so from like an 8:00 position, relative to the blasts, maybe about 9:00 or hard left from the camera. Trying to make that a direction, I got confused. Not sure that location is right, or just not seeing it yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think that location/direction is right. The vacant tower is seen from a different side (if it's even that one) Might be filmed from here - with that same white van - looking west. Building on the right, awning and other details, match, and it would explain general building lineup better. But that means the hits seem to come from the ... south? (and maybe slightly east) Empty fields for about 2-3 km south of there, FWIW. But can this be right? The sunlight (diffuse but there) doesn't seem right for morning facing west. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 3 or 4 masts seem to be there, buildings plausible, big parking lot may be hidden by the car in front. Not sure about the sun; we are not sure about time of this attack, and light may be tricky for a webcam inside a car and all behind a tall building --Resup (talk) 17:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Sharii figured out how to fix sound on the video. So, the sound came, telling us it was definitely Ukrainian side shelling, and that they now fire from the direction of Vinogradnaya. Puzzling. I remember reports somewhere saying that RS placed Grads at the plant and port side; that may be it. --Resup (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This I didn't get at all. He boosted sound, someone's talking, we see no impacts, this means what? (sorry?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not know how come this sound came back again, or what to make of this, but the man talking on the audio is telling us that fire came from Vinogradnoe --Resup (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, so it was a verbal cue, once spoken, squelched to near-zero volume in attempted cover-up, and then retrieved? This can be done, and also I think avoided, depending. If so, the unknowns are: if it was true, if it was meant to be retrieved, etc. Could be a false lead, or a real one. He couldn't probably say just where the fire came from, but might have heard the stories of Grads based at Vinogradnoe and deduced it. For example. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * SBU witness (on SBU video of his testimony), on his 'Novorossian  boss' question how the 8 am attack aftermath looks like, said that it looked like coming from Vinogradnoe. Not a reliable witness, but what he says, if accurate, would imply Ukraine. Somebody said there were 3 attacks at 3 different times
 * So indeed. For the record Interpreter Mag has a translation up that has him saying "I came to see what had happened there and I called Pepel and said he had missed by one kilometer. He asked, "From where is the shooting visible?" And I said, "From the direction of Vinogradsky." This might mean Kiev wants us to think that. It doesn't seem to make sense as an actual conversation; the shooting coordinator asks there on-the-scene guy where the shooting is visible, and the answer is where the shooting came from and he says "Well, alright," and hangs up when he hears people were killed? I'm guessing lines will point there (two trajectories point about that way, and I'm likely wrong about south). But just where on the line remains open, and the efforts to point at Vinogradsky suggest it was somewhere else on the line. --Caustic Logic (talk) 16:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hard to be sure as it's unreliable to begin with, but he maybe somebody they booked for some offence, talking to separatists say, and as a life-saver gave him an option of doing the video. Than there would be bits which are false, and some they did not figure out still may be true. For conversation to make sense, maybe opolchenie attack planned for the night in fact never came about, while the other side (or somebody anyway) hit the area in error. He than thought it is opolchenie and "calls back" to say "what happened" (or they knew there was fire from there; or they were countering leaked audio pointing there) --Resup (talk) 17:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

According to yurasumy, Azov Battalion controls Sopino, which is next to Vinogradnoe.
 * (Control of Sopino seems to be disputed (Cassad considers it Novorossian), but there is still Ukrainian-controlled area to the East from Mariupol). Ukrainian map places front line at Shirokine, to the East from Sopino and Berdianskoe, making Sopino Ukrainian (there is another Berdiaskoe, to the west from Mariupol).  --Resup (talk) 21:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

It appears that there was Grad fire from the east (yurasmy mentions this), but there was also other fire, not all directions clear, and not all of them look immedeately like Grad (video). (Football field crater, if not fiddled with, would be Grad coming from the East; but it can be Ukrainian. Note that crater is not at 45 degrees as it would be for a shot from near-the-range distance; either more shallow or more vertical angle suggests a closer distance). This man account from a Ukrainian source, if accurate, is also consistent with Ukraine   firing East, for example from Sopino or other area of UAF control. He says it was Novoazovsk, but it would be hard to tell the difference. (Especially since according to his account he had a close call with explosions nearby, so would be pretty stressed. The man is clearly pro-Kiev regardless of the incident) --Resup (talk) 07:59, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * football field crater video, interesting. Might have come about on the camera's line of view, with some kind of twist in the impact, or a bit from the right as it mostly appears. strange damage. Besides the radial pattern, there seem to be extra horizontal marks preceding it. Might be a clue. Don't know how to measure it, but I agree the impact seems steep, and suggests a relatively close origin (how far, dunno, but an expert could say, or say nothing). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Football field, hit from close to due east, maybe a bit southeast. If false flaggers are doing this stuff... they understand to do it in the right direction, and hope no one remembers how many places there are in any given direction.--Caustic Logic (talk) 13:43, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Rusvesna, has an audio of a caller linked. The caller, resident of Mariupol for 40 years, tells that in his opinion after seeing video material on internet he thinks fire came from the North and North East. A family friend of his had balcony on the Northern side of the building teared off by Grad missile. He tells that in the northern direction there is the village Sartana. Behind it, on the so-called tarmac, there are UAF Grads, all Mariupol knows this , and from there  shots were fired. Does not believe UAF account giving direction in distance, all determined within 2 hours. The caller is not happy with Azov battallion in the city as they create many problems --Resup (talk) 16:18, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Steshin and Kots article. Their claim is that shell crater in the school  yard (shown in the article) was fired from the West. --Resup (talk) 18:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * map The wall to the west has broken glass; eastern side of crater has damage which may be back-blow (if this is Grad, it gets stuck at an angle and lower side explosion damage pavement; for shallow lodging Grad, little excavation in the front, but blast wave goes mostly to the front). In case this is Grad (some doubt as shallow crater and little shrapnel or soot seen, and no Grad pipes around), I'd say Grad coming from the East.
 * Little shrapnel damage- some towards SW and NW, on S and W walls, and very little on western side, suggesting low quality of Grad used; angle appears to be steep (also tricky to hit center of schoolyard otherwise); this suggest firing from not afar; all of that supports Ukrainian Grad coming from the east as more likely). --Resup (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah! I just picked that spot maybe for the video scene, not seeing a car, but that spot shows the door and damage are the same, car just off-frame. Yandex street view, same color trim as seen inside anyway. App. same building shown from outside just before. Hard to set directions from inside. Blue door maybe connects to main doors, meaning south? That would mean we agree on the directions and that it came from the east. Others seem to agree, misread, and say it came from the west. So well agree on the directions. But the pavement is not a crater, as we know, so you can't read it like one. Other damage, I'll presume you're right, as it should all line up. Clean work so far. :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In case two verbal explanations isn't enough:

--Caustic Logic (talk) 14:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Another video shows different craters; fire came from NNE and very likely Ukrainian. Audio is in Russian, but graphics makes the claim quite clear. Presenter refers to military maps to claim that opolchenie was attacking nearby and could be the target. So that would be accidental shelling by Ukraine. --Resup (talk) 02:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Several Attacks?
Russian wikipedia gives 3 attacks, 9:15 am, 13:00, and 17:06, giving Azov battalion as the source. The first two attacks said to hit residential area of Vostochnoe. --Resup (talk) 15:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Claims
Eduard Basurin, assistant head, MOD DPR. At about 2 pm on Saturday, UAF in error shelled  positions of  their own 18 battalion of 28 mechanized brigade at Vinogradnoe, considering it to be a DPR detachment. Shelling was from Berdyanskoie, on the western outskirts of Mariupol. Up to 15 UAF soldiers were killed. Due to incorrect fire correction, some of UAF Grads hit a residential area of Vostochnyi micro-district. --Resup (talk) 19:14, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Military Studies ‏@ArmedResearch tweets Jan. 25 "#Ukraine has accused a local #Mariupol police officer named Kirsanov of being a spotter for #NAF artillery." In contexy, it seems they say the targets weren't chosen at random, but well-selected to cause random civilian deaths, like terrorists might do. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * But the claim does not make sense, they do not operate like this, and even if they do, that civilian or another would make no difference, no spotter needed to hit a city, and there is no way to target particular individual by Grad, a carpet bombing weapon. --Resup (talk) 15:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is the video anyway. When he saw saw UAF personnel or equipment, he used Google Earth at home to get the coordinates. Than sent it to "terrorist," -Ponomarenko, who he knew for 6 years, the commander of 1 Slaviansk company of NAF, or in his absence to "pepel" (ash) by SMS; that was going on for 6 months. Gave coordinates of checkpoint on Taganrogskoe " the day before yesterday ." (earlier, gave coordinates of Vinogradnoe and Pikuzovskaia Trassa=Motorway) "They were supposed to shell it at night, but it happened at  8 am". "Missed by 1 km". Told his bosses that fire missed and  there are many killed. They asked, where it appears to be coming? He said, Vinogradnoe.  His Novorossia contact "pepel" was "Russian officer" commanding a (rocket) artillery battalion. Well all that sounds fake to me (either he is working for SBU, or coerced to say all that. Very pointedly tells about  "Russian officer"   in the end;  will be caught if really doing this for 6 months using SMS). In any case even if everything he say is true, this is accidental miss. And clear anyway that cannot be anything but accidental.  --Resup (talk) 00:53, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Russian MOD respose: it's fake, reads from the list to his right; knows real names, call-names, citizenship, rank, unit, and equipment of his "bosses" which would be appropriate for resident intelligence officer, not fire correction guy; claims that fire came from Vinogradnoe which is where UAF checkpoint is, and which is 3 km to the South (role poorly learned implied; a little bit of twist here). --Resup (talk) 01:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Casualties?
Latest Western reports say now 30 killed, 102 injured. Rocket attacks, said to be Grad, on homes and shops on Saturday morning. Police chief says “The nearest Ukrainian army checkpoint outside the city is about [3 miles] from the place, and the terrorists know well where it is, because they have already shot at it many times in the last three days.” Does have the hallmarks of terrorism, not mistake. Separatists announced a five-front offensive the day before - whoever wants to make that look bad is a potential suspect. LA Times, said 26 dead when I started reading)--Caustic Logic (talk) 02:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Itar-Tass, Jan, 26 "The Ukrainian military’s shelling of the southeastern Ukrainian city of Mariupol is a provocation aimed at changing the format of talks on resolving the Donbass conflict, the chief negotiator of the self-proclaimed Donetsk people’s republic at the Minsk talks, Denis Pushilin said on Sunday." He calls the attack "another attempt to accuse militias and cast them in a negative light," which it did, and notes "today they call for turning the Minsk talks to a Geneva format and involve the United States there." The solution" “suppress the artillery positions of the enemy ... they understand only this language.” --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Locations
Location we tried to geolocate, tall buildings hit by Grad, according to latest version described, is very close to Kiev Market place.

Kiev Market.
It appears to be a building to the West of what looks like  parking lot from above (map,view). It seems to be one of the two market places hit and where people actually died. I do not know where is yellow building from peo-Ukrainian witness video; there is a yellow building close by on Kiev street, but it is not the right one (wrong yellow building)--Resup (talk) 18:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

This pro-Kiev video seems to correctly say Grad was going 'left to right', (asphalt pieces  blown  mostly in that direction, and  pavement mark on the opposite side), this will be going West on Marshrutnaia street, from центр окон (tsentr Okon-Windows Center) to   эконом магазин (Econom Magazin--which he says Fast Food). So coming from the East and going to the West. But this is only one Grad, we seem to have barrage of Grads nearby going from a different (Southern) direction). So what's going on here? Something came first, and another as a cover-up? (Econom Magazin-Fast Food on the map) . Shallow angle again, suggesting it came from not that far--exact location provided in the video is propaganda. --Resup (talk) 19:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Not difficult for Ukraine to do it, for example first accidental hit of this market from somewhere between Vinogradnoe and Primorskoe. Than another hit to cover-up, starting from Primorskoe, Sopino, or Berdiaevo   they control, moving on the road North couple of kilometers, --there are such roads in any of the three locations,--than firing at the same area. This particular Grad we see on video landed 50 m off the market and did not kill anybody at the market. Somebody in Econom/Fast Food could be hit. map --Resup (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)