Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre

Death toll?

 * В Славянске проверяют информацию о приближающейся колонне бронетехники (Regional council deputy: the death toll in Odessa was 116 people) – РИА Новости
 * Kiev conceals deaths in Odessa fire, 116 killed - Ukrainian lawmaker – VoR
 * ''The interim Ukrainian authorities are hiding from the public the true death toll in Friday's tragedy in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, which actually claimed 116 lives, a member of the Odessa regional council told RIA Novosti Monday. "According to our data, there were 116 people killed in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. Killed, not just "dead". "We don't use the word "burned" or "suffocated", because autopsies are not being performed, since the people have bullet wounds to the head," Vadim Savenko said.


 * Одесситы рассказывают о зверствах нацистов
 * Vladimir Suchan on Facebook
 * ''According to Odessite activists with information on the ground, 126 people were killed only in the basement of the Labor Union building in Odessa on May 2. 8 people died by jumping from the windows, 12 people were beaten to death on the ground by the walls of the Labor Union building, and 9 people were shot to death by the windows. Altogether, the overall number of the dead significantly exceeds the official number of 46 and actually stands between 200 and 300.

Victim list

 * В неофициальном списке погибших 2 мая в Одессе — уже 42 имени (An informal list of victims on May 2 in Odessa - already 42 names)

Death of regional council deputy Vyacheslav Markin

 * В Одессе в госпитале умер депутат облсовета (In Odessa, a regional council deputy died in hospital)
 * ''In Odessa, died in hospital Odessa Regional Council deputy Vyacheslav Markin.
 * Andrey Davydov ‏@FarEasterner
 * ''Yesterday Maidanites severely beat local legislators who tried to stop mayhem. One of them Mr Markin just died

Victim analysis
On the Euromaidan PR video Russian Terrorists Burnt Alive shows badly burnt bodies in the stairwell. Odd positions, heads up, feet facing up to higher floor, rigor mortis, hands sticking up. It looks like these people did not die naturally in these positions. Many of the same oddities as we saw in the Khamis Brigade Morgue. Note the tags attached to the wrists. Some have documents in plastic bags attached with cable ties. These must have been placed by rescue services after the fire. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I had a look, but not a careful one. From the shed massacre, I can say usually back muscles contract more and bodies curl backwards if burnt enough. These don't look that burnt, nor are their postures very consistent with that. The arms up thing we also saw, and I'm not sure if people really die with arms frozen up in defense, but it looks like that here (0:16), like it did with the one guy who seemed beheaded. So, I don't know yet. They seem to have some marks on them, looking for bullet holes or the like. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Victims carried out
The head of the Russian State Duma Committee on Foreign Affairs Alexei Pushkov says
 * ''We know that in Odessa about 116 dead, we know that in Odessa have seen and heard, as handed down the corpses from the rear entrance of the House of Trade Unions, trying to hide the real number of people who were burned, strangled and shot in the House of Trade Unions."

One of the Denis Cherkasov videos shows about 10 smashed bodies carried out in the rear of the building, after the rear entrance is set on fire. I have a copy of the video, but now found a mirror on-line. I do not know if the people are alive or dead. Even if alive, they would die in a few minutes in the burning building, if left there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Одесса, 2 мая, Куликово поле, Дом профсоюзов с обратной стороны. Вынос раненых и убитых. (Odessa, May 2, Kulikovo Field, House of Trade Unions on the reverse side. Removal of the wounded and dead.)

Poison Gas?

 * Voice of Russia - People in Ukraine's Odessa died instantly, poisoned by unknown substance - report
 * "I was at the accident scene and saw a great number of dead people. It was evident that they died instantly, very quickly," the agency quoted Ukraine’s First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema as saying.
 * "This means that some substance burned which generated gas and this gas quickly affected people who lost consciousness and died on the spot," Yarema told journalists at a briefing in Odessa, RIA reports.
 * He said the examination of bodies will be carried out to identify the gas.

From the source (cabal official) and the bolded, obviously I don't trust this guy. But is this completely made-up? Or is he talking about something real he maybe knows about already? Is this just to explain why more people didn't try to escape, without mentioning people murdered by guns, bats, phone cords, and shot at as soon as they climbed out windows? There must've been an "accidental" gas. Or a purposeful one ... planted by the Russian provocateurs, of course. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

More here: (Moved from main page.) I think this is bullshit. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * События в Одессе происходили по разработанному сценарию - Порошенко (Events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario - Poroshenko)
 * ''People's Deputy of Ukraine, candidate for president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko noted that the events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario in advance and were prepared special toxic substances.
 * ''According to an UNIAN correspondent, he said at a briefing in parliament.
 * ''Poroshenko said that the script was developed, which began "with shooting terrorists who were brought from Transnistria, of Russia" and that shooting at people, speaking for a united Ukraine.


 * Порошенко сообщил о применении отравляющего вещества в одесском Доме профсоюзов (Poroshenko reported the use of toxic substances in the Odessa House of Trade Unions) – Gazeta.ru, May 6, 2014

Different Opinions
From RT Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape, about the off-duty cop (I presume) shooting at the burning people and then claiming he was unarmed and they shot him ...
 * The Ukrainian Interior Ministry however offers a different version of events, saying the victims of the violent unrest started the fire themselves, when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the upper floor.

Quiet rage hit me there. Quiet, knife-in-your eye rage. The "legitimate government" and its demon-infested friends like this there will keep saying things like this until they're accusing these "Russian terrorists" of putting themselves on those trains to the extermination camps. Hoping to run over the beautiful EuroMaidan activists with it, of course... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Militants with red armbands

 * Andrey Ivanchenko
 * 3. Militants of unknown origin (hereinafter simply militants) - armed men in camouflage uniforms with red armbands, some with St. George ribbons.
 * Very suspicious that after the "disappearance" of militants with red armbands, appeared on the scene militants SS. I'm not saying that these were the same people. But ... Who were these "strange militants" - provocateurs who attacked the "ultras" and supporters of the Maidan? And it's the most exciting question! The key to an accurate understanding of what happened.
 * Eyewitnesses to Odessa carnage: Pro-Russian side, armed for war, started shooting – Olena Goncharova, Kyiv Post, May 3, 2014
 * Alexey Albu, leader of anti-fascist ‘Borotba’ Odessa, who was severely injured in the later events at the Trade Union Building, reports that the men with the red armbands were his fellow activists of the "Defenders of Odessa". In a more detailed report, Borotba members give their version of what happened that day:


 * On May 2, under the pretext of the so-called march ‘For unity of Ukraine’ (that was dated to football match ‘Chernomorets’ – ‘Metallist’) – the paramilitary squads of Ukrainian nationalist were brought together to Odessa from all over the country. They arrived by buses and by trains. From the very beginning – when they just started to gather on ‘Sobornaya’ square – among ordinary ultra-right fans too many well-equipped paramilitaries could be seen. They had shields, helmets, bats, traumatic and service weapons. Mostly - men about 30-40 years old who were evidently not football fans. Some of them had shields where it was written: ’14-th hundred of Maidan self-guard’. And these nationalist paramilitaries became the main striking force of bloody massacre of Odessa residents on ‘Kulikovo pole’ square.


 * In total there were more than thousand of nationalists that participated in the march and the slaughter that followed it. Local residents of Odessa were the minority among them, while the majority – far-right paramilitaries that were brought together there. They could be identified in particular by dialect (not typical for Odessa region), however many of them openly acknowledged and told where they came from. Local Odessa fans of ‘Chernomorets’ team have left the march at the moment when clashes started – they came just for traditional march to the stadium and when they realized that ‘visitors’ and provocateurs led them to beat local people – the majority of ‘Chernomorets’ fans (identified by black-blue scarves of Odessa club) – immediately left the so-called ‘peaceful’ march. [...]


 * When the column of nationalists marched along Grecheskaya street - a few (some 200-250 people) activists of local Odessa militia tried to stop them. But soon the opponents of nationalists were pelted with stones, bottles and stun grenades. There were heard gunshots. The activist of "Borotba" Ivan has got a gunshot wound into the belly from a military weapon. Then activists and members of Odessa militia tried to escape in the shopping centre "Athena" in the ‘Greek’ square. A crowd of far-right nationalists demanded to start a carnage against them. The far-right paramilitaries started immediately to prepare Molotovs on the square in order to set fire to the shopping center with barricaded Odessa militia members inside it. Police officers managed to save the lives of activists as they drove police cars directly to the entrance of the shopping centre.


 * Then the crowd of nationalist headed to the square ‘Kulikovo Pole’, where there was a camp of opponents to Kiev junta. Activists of ‘Borotba’, along with other activists and ordinary Odessa residents, were on duty that day in the protest camp. In total there were some 200 people in the camp and half of them - women and elderly men. [...]

Via Saker:
 * For those of you who can understand Russian, here is an extremely interesting report about the "red-banded" infiltrators seen amongst the pro-Russian, pro-junta and even the police


 * Бойня в Одессе результат провокации

Motives?

 * Ukrainian Defense News Network on Facebook
 * ''According to the reports, on April 28, 2014 the leaders of Kievan junta Olexander Turchinov and Arseniy Yatsenyuk received a confidential cable from Washington urging them to neutralize by any means the threat of secession of Odessa region. It was underlined, that in case of the lost control over this strategic port in the Black Sea, new Kiev's authorities would not be able to reckon on further US, EU and IMF diplomatic and financial support. At the same time the US intelligence agents in Kiev and Odessa were tasked to provide all necessary assistance and expertice to their Ukrainian wards to perform a special operation aimed to nip the anti-fascist resistance in Odessa.


 * Note: "The reports" unexplained. A comment there asked, and UDNN responded "An insider report from Kiev. We can't disclose the source." Could be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Perpetrators?

 * ONE OF THE ACTORS IN THE ODESSA POGROM WAS IDENTIFIED – UKRAINIAN COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, May 9, 2014