Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre

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Death toll?

 * В Славянске проверяют информацию о приближающейся колонне бронетехники (Regional council deputy: the death toll in Odessa was 116 people) – РИА Новости
 * Kiev conceals deaths in Odessa fire, 116 killed - Ukrainian lawmaker – VoR
 * ''The interim Ukrainian authorities are hiding from the public the true death toll in Friday's tragedy in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, which actually claimed 116 lives, a member of the Odessa regional council told RIA Novosti Monday. "According to our data, there were 116 people killed in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. Killed, not just "dead". "We don't use the word "burned" or "suffocated", because autopsies are not being performed, since the people have bullet wounds to the head," Vadim Savenko said.


 * Одесситы рассказывают о зверствах нацистов
 * Vladimir Suchan on Facebook
 * ''According to Odessite activists with information on the ground, 126 people were killed only in the basement of the Labor Union building in Odessa on May 2. 8 people died by jumping from the windows, 12 people were beaten to death on the ground by the walls of the Labor Union building, and 9 people were shot to death by the windows. Altogether, the overall number of the dead significantly exceeds the official number of 46 and actually stands between 200 and 300.


 * Руководитель Одесской народной республики: По моим данным, в Доме профсоюзов погибли 272 человека (Head of the People's Republic of Odessa: According to my information, in the House of Trade Unions killed 272 people) – RT, May 16, 2014
 * ''During a fire in Odessa Trade Union House killed 272 people. This was explained in an interview with the head of the self-proclaimed RT Odessa's Republic Valery Kaurov. Now he is in Moscow.

Victim list

 * В неофициальном списке погибших 2 мая в Одессе — уже 42 имени (An informal list of victims on May 2 in Odessa - already 42 names)

Death of regional council deputy Vyacheslav Markin

 * В Одессе в госпитале умер депутат облсовета (In Odessa, a regional council deputy died in hospital)
 * ''In Odessa, died in hospital Odessa Regional Council deputy Vyacheslav Markin.
 * Andrey Davydov ‏@FarEasterner
 * ''Yesterday Maidanites severely beat local legislators who tried to stop mayhem. One of them Mr Markin just died

Is it just coincidence he was the one beaten that badly? Odessa Borotba (anti-Fascist) leader and mayoral candidate Alexei Albu said in a May 19 statement (here in French until the Borotba site is back up, or translated excerpts here at ACLOS):
 * On May 1, my friend, the regional adviser Odessa Vyacheslav Markin, had agreed to be my campaign manager. On May 2, he was killed. Neo-fascist patrols attacked our activists and beat them. The SBU (state security police) puts pressure on people close to me.

He goes on to say - from Crimea - that elections can't mean a thing in this climate and it's time for mass revolt. A fellow Borotba member was killed at the Trade Union Hall, he says, and Albu himself was apparently beaten somewhere at this time, judging by his May 6 interview video. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Or was he even beaten? Odessa Daily claims he was one of the jumpers at the Trade Union hall. (Translated) "As we found in the tragic day on May 2 Markin was dressed in a gray T-shirt and blue jeans. By studying the records from the event, we were able to find pictures and video fragment, which fixed the incident with the deputy after he jumped out of the DP." If we had a photo to compare, it could be more sure. They cite the 24:17 video as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVXm9nnY-AQ posted by online journalist Anatoly Shary (Анатолий Шарий) - "At around 18:47 am a man in camouflage leans toward the man lying on the ground in a gray shirt." That looks like the same guy they found a photo of - busted up, pants down, looking semi-conscious. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Andrey Brazhevsky

 * http://www.marxist.com/terror-in-ukraine-forces-left-wing-organisation-borotba-underground.htm
 * Our comrade Andrey Brazhevsky died in the Trade Union Building. He jumped from the third floor of the burning building and survived, but the fascists had beaten him to death with sticks. His mother was there at the time as well. She saw that one of the guys jumped out of a window, saw that the fascists were trying to finish him off. She threw herself on him, covered him with her body and saved him. She did not know that her own son at this exact moment was being beaten by the fascists and that he would die from these beatings.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)


 * WW salutes revolutionary youth Andrew Brazhevsky A founding member of Borotba (struggle) in Odessa, computer programmer, student of Marxism, and defender of Odessa's muti-ethnic character "from the drive of the Ukrainian fascists and ultranationalists for racial “purity.”" He would have turned 27 on August 30, if he hadn't been killed on May 2, so his birthday was marked as a day of remembrance by Worker's World and "communist and anti-fascist fighters around the world." --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Khrystyna Berzhanytska

 * Kyiv Post, "who is to blame?"
 * ...Despite rumors that there were Russian citizens among the dead, all the identified victims turned out to be from Odessa. Five participants of the clashes went missing. Some 200 people sought medical aid after the clashes. Of identified victims, six are women.
 * One of the women was Khrystyna Berzhanytska, 22. A blonde young woman of Russian origin and an AntiMaidan activist in Odesa, she died of smoke inhalation inside the Trade Unions House. In early November 2013, she participated in a talk show on local TV, defending the idea of Slavic unity and criticizing the West.
 * ''“I don’t understand why everyone is so pro-Western now. What comes from West kills our culture, our traditions. It’s wrong to take after someone; everyone should have their own way. Otherwise, we can turn into a herd,” Berzhanytska said then. Most of the bodies in Trade Unions House were found lying in the stairwell and upstairs rooms.''

Pregnant woman
So the medical sources agree there was no pregnant woman among the dead. This was an older woman with a bloated middle who was brutally murdered, and left looking pregnant. Also, "What makes you think the person in the photo is even dead? Kremlin media doesn’t need a dead body to stage a photo of a “dead person”. Sadly, probably because they are economically vulnerable and perhaps a bit nostalgic for the old USSR, we see again and again elderly women participating in disgusting Kremlin-sanctioned stage plays to seed hatred in the hearts of the vulnerable." This from the same "PR" group that called the non-fake charred people "Russian Terrorists." They must have done the fakery before torching themselves? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Moscow journalist says there was no pregnant woman in Odesa Trade Unions Building – EuromaidanPR, May 10, 2014


 * I decided to post this note here, but already did. Still some points worth adding:

a) she was a pro-Putin faker who slipped away and so never came through his hospital b) he knows but would rather not admit a woman was murdered like that c) She was simply passed through a different hospital or by a different doctor and he just doesn't know. But he seems to imply fakery anyway... --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why everyone thinks she was strangled with a phone cord. I don't see anything clarifying if she was strangled at all, or just what. Does anyone know if this is based on anything credible?
 * The claim of an older woman, to me, fits with the picture. She does look a little on the older side, and that doesn't really look like a pregnant belly, just swollen
 * If this is partly post-mortem bloating (maybe accelerated by the pose?) it could be a timeline clue: was she killed in the evening break-in, or even earlier, when the red armband people were getting themselves set up in there?
 * In the above, sleazy article, the Moscow journalist (Elena Rykovtseva) called "chief doctor of one of Odesa’s hospitals that is receiving the wounded." He hadn't heard the claim, and "asked to see her photo. And he immediately said it was clearly an elderly woman who was photographed, for some reason, here in such a pose, likely in order to create the needed effect." "Pose" implies, as the sleazy article does, that this was faked. Having seen the photo, the doctor did not provide a positive ID. This could suggest:

Another source: The mysterious 'strangled woman' of Odessa France 24, the Observers, May 13. An inherently mainstream, pro-Kiev outlook, but fairly balanced, and with some useful information.
 * The photo was taken by a woman who goes by the name “Alena” (unavailable). Alena says she went to the scene the day after the fire to search for a relative who had disappeared. She first published the photo on May 3 in a Facebook album (no longer in the album) retracing her visit through the building. She then reposted it in on her Facebook wall on May 7, along with a short explanation. She wrote that, following numerous reactions to this photo, she wanted to clarify the context in which it was taken. She says she took it on the building’s fourth floor, and that she regrets not photographing more angles of the body in order to help understand the reasons for her death. ... In the same post, Alena says that the dead woman was rather old and that she doubts she could have been pregnant...
 * Alena thought she was not pregnant, probably right. She also thought the wman seemed to be dead, not faking, lying in wait to be pictured like that.


 * One of our sources also told us he exchanged emails with a relative of the woman. This source claims the victim had “nothing do to do with the separatists” and was simply an employee of the trade union house.
 * "Relatives" speaking for her suggests she did indeed die, and probably at her work. She worked there at the hall, they say, not in a Moscow propaganda unit.

A coroner told the Obervers:
 * This position, with her bottom on the desk, makes me think that someone placed her there. The absence of any trace of the fire in the room also makes asphyxiation seem unlikely, though of course we cannot completely rule out the emission of toxic gases, since we don’t know when the window was opened.” The doctor added that strangulation, or a strike on the head, are both possibilities that could explain her death.
 * The coroner thought she looked dead, and seems to lean a bit towards the murder-type explanations. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Blue? Okay, there is something around this woman's neck, but to me that could be her necklace. These are common. What I could notice, looking closer, is a bluish tint in some areas - maybe artifacts, but a bit too-consistently the one color for that, IMO. This appears mainly on her hands (perhaps smashed, perhaps bruised fists, from beating on someone/something), down the right side of her head and maybe neck, and one clearer line across the right cheek, as if she'd been tightly gagged. This is a possible clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

'The Screaming Woman
I'm not convinced it's the same person as the above enty, as most people seem to presume. But apparently on the same floor, a woman was killed over a prolonged period, heard screaming from the window, as hecklers below shouted she wasn't human and should be shut up. I have some details on this around, but for now, the chilling video with English narration which, I guess, I'm kind of trusting here. Note the presence of a fire ladder right there no one wants to climb and ... figure out how to save her ... from whatever ... being done by whoever ... that's got a Ukrainian flag they unfurl right after. This is what a pogrom looks like? I don't like these things. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Victim analysis
On the Euromaidan PR video Russian Terrorists Burnt Alive shows badly burnt bodies in the stairwell. Odd positions, heads up, feet facing up to higher floor, rigor mortis, hands sticking up. It looks like these people did not die naturally in these positions. Many of the same oddities as we saw in the Khamis Brigade Morgue. Note the tags attached to the wrists. Some have documents in plastic bags attached with cable ties. These must have been placed by rescue services after the fire. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I had a look, but not a careful one. From the shed massacre, I can say usually back muscles contract more and bodies curl backwards if burnt enough. These don't look that burnt, nor are their postures very consistent with that. The arms up thing we also saw, and I'm not sure if people really die with arms frozen up in defense, but it looks like that here (0:16), like it did with the one guy who seemed beheaded. So, I don't know yet. They seem to have some marks on them, looking for bullet holes or the like. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Not blood. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Victims carried out
The head of the Russian State Duma Committee on Foreign Affairs Alexei Pushkov says
 * ''We know that in Odessa about 116 dead, we know that in Odessa have seen and heard, as handed down the corpses from the rear entrance of the House of Trade Unions, trying to hide the real number of people who were burned, strangled and shot in the House of Trade Unions."

One of the Denis Cherkasov videos shows about 10 smashed bodies carried out in the rear of the building, after the rear entrance is set on fire. I have a copy of the video, but now found a mirror on-line. I do not know if the people are alive or dead. Even if alive, they would die in a few minutes in the burning building, if left there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Одесса, 2 мая, Куликово поле, Дом профсоюзов с обратной стороны. Вынос раненых и убитых. (Odessa, May 2, Kulikovo Field, House of Trade Unions on the reverse side. Removal of the wounded and dead.)

Poison Gas?

 * ''Moved to Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Chemicals

Investigations and Talk
I'd like to organize a chronoligical review of at least some high points - investigations and relevant commentary/events --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * First, a chronology of investigations, new evidence release, statements from relevant people (involved and/or powerful), etc. but not random comments from whoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 3: Fatherland MP Yulia Tymoshenko blames Russia: ""He (Putin) commits his terrorist acts against every Ukrainian. By planning and executing special operations like the one that took place in Odessa yesterday, he wants to set our people against each other. He wants that we shoot at each other, that we kill each other, that we split the country, that we put our children under fire." ITNsource


 * May 8: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch jointly call for an impartial investigation, relating what was reported so far, with questions about police response and other issues. They put the onus on Kiev to be fair, and note their promise to work with experts from Europe and Israel. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 12 - formation of May 2 Committee. The May 2 Committee, a panel of civic leaders, journalists, experts coordinated by social worker Sergey Dibrov. A May 19 report has Dibrov explaining (it seems) it wasn't to replace official investigations but to do their own work since people shouldn't just trust it. Pro-federalists opposed the inclusion of journalist Yuri Tkachev, but Dibrov and others insisted he stay for a balanced view. Tkachev earlier said, in an interview with DW, that federalists started the trouble, and the first victim was on the Euromaidan side. The latter is apparently undeniable, the former seems true on the surface but is well worth questioning) while noting the Maidanistas did come armed and ready to be provoked ...  "We want to show what happened and when, having painted events by the minute," said Dibrov. They planned to annoince their first findings in early June. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 13? Something from the Ukrainian Rada http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1264-vii --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This should announce the creation of a "Temporary investigative commission of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to investigate the facts of death of people in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol and other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk Ukraine (TSC created May 13, 2014 consisting of 10 deputies, elected chairman of the TSC MP from the "Party of Regions" Anton Kisse (Кіссе), deputy - MP from the Union "Fatherland" Alexander Dubovogo..." (as mentioned by MFA July 23)  Interesting tidbit: " Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Dubogovo (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2..." (Antimaydan Odessa)--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 21: As covered below, Kiev's national security and defense council chief - and possible Odessa ATO and thus massacre organizer - Andriy Parubiy, spoke up in an interview to Euractiv: "Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk." They started it, the middle is vague, and "when the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions," it was from a chemical separatists had stored there; "when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed." He has experts - hired professional ones of some type - who say this, he's not making it up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * June 2: Party of Regions has started an investigation www.newsru.ua/ukraine/02jun2014/efram.html --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf This calls Odessa "the most serious single incident of significant loss of life in Ukraine since the killings on Maidan," and spends several points relating Ukraine's favorite "they started it!" football scuffle story. As for the core, massacre portion, they found that:
 * June 15 UN report
 * "...between 6.00 – 6.30 p.m., (federalists) decided to take refuge in the nearby Trade Union Building. ... At around 8.00 p.m., the “Pro-Unity” activists entered the Trade Union Building ... During the evening a fire broke out in the Trade Union Building."

Acknowledgment of entry seems like a big step forward. Otherwise, they nearly parrot Kiev's points, while offering oblique hints that riled-up right-wingers had something to do with it (" the Government must pay particular attention to ensure social media is not used for hate speech or incitement to hatred. ") and that the government is blocking oversight of its dubious investigations:
 * ...six official investigations have been established. The main bodies undertaking such investigations are the Ministry of Interior (MoI) and the State Security Service in Ukraine (SBU). It is with regret that the HRMMU reports a lack of cooperation from both governmental bodies, particularly at the central level with the HRMMU, which has been preventing the HRMMU from conducting a proper assessment of the progress made. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

http://larouchepac.com/node/31287
 * July 9 hearing in Europpean parliament
 * Latvian Member of the European Parliament Tatjana Zdanoka organized a hearing on the May 2 Odessa massacre, on July 9 in Brussels, despite disruptions staged by pro-Ukrainian coup groups. "Our objective is to demand an international investigation of the events in Odessa on May 2. Conclusions will be drawn only on the basis of qualified evidence collected by experts. It is my personal opinion that one of those conclusions will be the urgent need to put [Ukrainian fascist paramilitary group] Right Sector on the list of terrorist organizations." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

PACE (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) co-rapporteur for the monitoring of Ukraine Marietta de Pourbaix-Lundin (Sweden) said "I welcome the work done on this issue by a group of civil society experts and journalists, which deserves the full support of the authorities and the international community, and urge the international community to provide expertise to assist the investigations," ... “The local population is asking many questions about these events, which need clear answers in order to avoid distrust and possible tension." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Same track, July 16 ria.ru:

http://mfa.gov.ua/ua/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26014-shhodo-khodu-rozsliduvannya-vipadkiv-nasilystva-v-odesi "On the progress of investigations into violence in Odessa" (from Ukrainian) Ukraine sough an "unbiased," investigation with experts "to facilitate its comprehensiveness and impartial nature." They were confident that "unbiased coverage denies accusations Russian side to the so-called "Neo-Nazi massacre" in Odessa May 2, 2014." They outline six ongoing investigations. The ones they like emphasize they started it, "causing clashes and social chaos," citing the June UN report in support, and at the end it was "pro-Ukrainian activists" who labored "to save the protesters "for federalism" in a fire at the House of Trade Unions." All the details in between get sort of glossed over. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * July 23 Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * "Experts Odessa Regional Office forensics found that none of the victims died from injuries that could indicate a beating."
 * They speak of "organization of mass riots and killings by the local officials and law enforcement agencies to discredit the central government in Ukraine"
 * "Prior to the tragic events of May 2, 2014 in Odessa led another blatant interference of the Russian side in internal political development of Ukraine, attempt to impose stereotypical belief (artificially imposed so-called Kremlin "South-eastern" and identity ) ... undermining state sovereignty ..."
 * "In addition to the events of May 2, 2014, the Kremlin's repeated attempts to destabilize the situation in Ukraine took place in the south and east of our country."
 * "In Odessa implementation of this plan was thwarted active participation of the patriotic local population strongly rejects the artificially imposed so-called Kremlin "South-eastern" and identity under any circumstances and is not exposed to provocations directed by Moscow separatist propaganda."

“In this context I would like to pay attention to the necessity of a speedy legal decision, concerning criminal proceedings over the tragic events in Odessa in early May,” UNIAN news agency quoted Yarema as saying." Ria.ru
 * August 5 "Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaly Yarema on Saturday urged to speed up the investigation of the May 2 tragic events in Odessa, which claimed the lives of at least 48 people and injured over 200.


 * August 9: emergency calls transcript obtained by Odessa news website dumskaya.net and released to the media: RT report suggests the 38 minute delay in fire response is troubling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * August 12: RT reports Odessa slaughter survivors reveal their side of story in intl photo exhibit
 * (Survivors) have organized international photo exhibits in order to convey the events with a new clarity denied to viewers by Kiev.
 * ''In order to present the May 2 events in a manner that only a witness and a survivor could, two members of the Rodina (Motherland) group have formed a coalition called ‘Remember Odessa, Stop Fascism’.

Sergey Marchel and Oleg Muzyka contacted a number of European anti-fascist groups for the purpose of setting up a photo and video diary of what had gone down during the fire and the subsequent storming of the Fourth Regional Department of Internal Affairs in order to free the remaining anti-Maidan prisoners.''
 * Petri, take note --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The resulting exhibition was presented to the European public throughout the early summer, and has gained widespread popularity. The Berlin exhibit saw the biggest crowds, its ZDF and ARD networks covering the event, which consisted of over 50 photographs made by witnesses of the Odessa events.
 * “The events of May 2, 2014, on Odessa’s Koulikov Field must not be forgotten. And those among us who were spared must do everything in our power to ensure that our friends and close ones’ deaths were not in vain,” Muzyka said addressing the press and visitors.
 * “Eyewitnesses have traveled together with this exhibition, so that the spectators could get a first-hand account of how things went down… unarmed people were burnt alive in what was a pre-planned action,” Marchel said.
 * ... The show has been a big success, visited by journalists, public figures – even politicians. The creators are especially pleased with the effect the show had on the guests. It could clearly be seen that the guests were moved by scenes they had not imagined could take place in the heart of Europe.--Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * September 2: "Remember Odessa" - message on thousands of black baloons released in Odessa and various European cities to make four months since the massacre. RT, Sept. 3:
 * “The investigation has been ongoing for four months, without any results. Those responsible are being let go, while the innocent people are being locked up in prisons. Odessa’s people do not agree with this,” the organizer of the Voice of Odessa group, Svetlana Naboka, told RIA Novosti. According to the activist, local police attempted to prevent the protesters’ voices from being heard, removing a loudspeaker used by them. This caused a brief confrontation with officers, who she claimed beat some of the activists attempting to block a police vehicle carrying the equipment away. The protest, however, went on peacefully. “We want to show that people should not be afraid no matter what,” Naboka said. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * September 4: "On September 4 Chairman of the commission of the Odessa regional council Grigory Yepur said that the commission had disbanded itself. The investigation has been conducted by the Prosecutor's General and the Interior Ministry of Ukraine which are not accountable to deputies of a local level, Yepur said." (Itar-Tass, Sept. 8) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * September 8: Parliament Investigation releases report. See here --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Interior Ministry
From RT Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape, about the off-duty cop (I presume) shooting at the burning people and then claiming he was unarmed and they shot him ...
 * The Ukrainian Interior Ministry however offers a different version of events, saying the victims of the violent unrest started the fire themselves, when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the upper floor.

Quiet rage hit me there. Quiet, knife-in-your eye rage. The "legitimate government" and its demon-infested friends like this there will keep saying things like this until they're accusing these "Russian terrorists" of putting themselves on those trains to the extermination camps. Hoping to run over the beautiful EuroMaidan activists with it, of course... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

National Review
Western mainstream media has been shy of addressing the details or of calling this a "massacre" or anything incendiary. Hm, incendiary ... But finally we see a denunciation of the brutal and calculated crime in Odessa, so long as it's asking...
 * Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre? He has certainly exploited it Robert Zubrin, National Review, May 13
 * in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself.


 * ''So the question is, did he? ""

Yeah, probably, huh? Let's hear the details on how. Oh, Zubrin has none. None whatsoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The article he's written before contains a laughable CT that it's Putin with his filthy propaganda agents who's causing the overwhelming aversion of Europeans against fracking. Rest assured that I don't know anybody of any political stream who isn't against fracking since first having heard about it, just like against GMO food and comparable stuff. If you look at his company and the books he writes it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to saving humanity by helping us out of the dependency on oil with Mr. Zubrin's genius inventions is Vladimir Putin. ;o) --CE (talk) 09:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Andriy Parubiy

 * Ukraine official: Putin’s plans have failed - EurActiv, interview May 21: "Andriy Parubiy is a former commandant of Euromaidan. He spoke to EurActiv’s Senior Editor Georgi Gotev." He was somewhere for a meeting with NATO officials on how to fight the Russian plots against Ukraine. He shared many thoughts on how that works, from the anti-Fascit Maidan protests fired on by Spetsnaz snipers, to the Odessa Trade Unions provocation. The interviewer doesn't seem to like Parubiy, and asks him good/hard questions. Informative reading.
 * Q: How about this tragedy, this carnage in Odessa on 4 May?
 * Parubiy: This is a classic example of how Russia provokes, aiming at unleashing civil unrest and bloodshed. On that day, there was a football match. The fans had gathered and when they started marching with Ukrainian flags, a group of people started shooting at them with military guns. A few people were killed on the spot. In this group were citizens of Russia, which had come from Transnistria [a Russia-controlled breakaway territory of Moldova].
 * When the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions, experts have shown that the substance that provoked it had been stored there a long time ago. The House of the Trade Unions was a kind of headquarters for the separatists, it was not controlled by the authorities, nor by the opposition. And the substance that provoked the blaze was brought there during this period of time [when the separatists controlled the building]. I’m not saying that this substance was inflamed on purpose. But when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Stephen F. Cohen
The Silence of American Hawks About Kiev’s Atrocities Stephen F. Cohen, the Nation, June 30, 2014 (updated July 7 and 17):
 * On May 2, in this incendiary atmosphere, a horrific event occurred in the southern city of Odessa, awakening memories of Nazi German extermination squads in Ukraine and other Soviet republics during World War II. An organized pro-Kiev mob chased protesters into a building, set it on fire and tried to block the exits. Some forty people, perhaps more, perished in the flames or were murdered as they fled the inferno. A still unknown number of other victims were seriously injured. ... Kiev alleged that the victims had themselves accidentally started the fire, but eyewitnesses, television footage and social media videos told the true story, as they have about subsequent atrocities.

(expanded by Norman Pollack at Counterpunch) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: Cohen's been heavily criticized for this and other truthful reports about Ukraine. The Daily Beast hates him, and Slate reports: Stephen Cohen, Vladimir Putin's Apologist: The Nation just published the most outrageous defense of the Russian president
 * Cohen’s new article in The Nation hits a new low. The charge Cohen makes is a serious one: that the pro-Western Ukrainian government, aided and abetted by the Obama administration, the “new Cold War hawks” in Congress, and the craven American media, is committing “deeds that are rising to the level of war crimes, if they have not done so already.”
 * Ignored: Kiev's war crimes had also hit a new low. Not noticing that the article was put up in June and just updated twice, Slate complained in late July
 * Now, as the hostilities in eastern Ukraine have turned to the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, Cohen is at it again—this time, with a long article in the current issue of The Nation indicting “Kiev’s atrocities” in eastern Ukraine and America’s collusion therein. The timing is rather unfortunate for Cohen and The Nation, since the piece is also unabashedly sympathetic to the Russian-backed militants who appear responsible for the murder of 298 innocent civilians.
 * No, Kiev with its war crimes and Buk launching system and motive to frame the rebels ... blames Russia. To note, the article chalks the recent war crime charges up to Putin's propaganda, gives no supports, and doesn't touch on the Odessa allegations, which is what matters for this page. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:29, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Odessa Anti-Terrorism Operation?
In their opinions above, Parubiy and Kiev at large paint a very passive picture of their own role in anything that day. It comes across as pro-Russian and Russian people vs. other people, in a spontaneous action that didn't even do anything - the one group killed themselves and that was it. However, we've seen signs of coordination of something. Parubiy attended a meeting on it, then met with a man involved in the non-action, delivering the bulletproof vests he was seen wearing one of during the random-seeming events. This suggests covert management, meant to be concealed. So I'm still baffled by a statement attributed to Odessa's mayor, apparently in reference to the massacre itself.
 * “The Odessa anti-terrorist operation is legal”

Is it just taken out of context in the one place I can find it? The Ukraine Genocide and its Cheerleaders - an 'excellent article. But I cannot locate the original message for context, in English or Ukrainian. I thought I had seen it, as a tweet, from him? Is it interesting, his claim that the lynch mob had official backing (was "legal"), and is that why it's so hard to find now? Copies must be around ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Who staffed this ATO? What did they do, where and when? Why wasn't it clearly reported? What relation does it have to the mass murder that day? Two days later AFP reported Ukraine expands 'anti-terrorism' operation against pro-Russians. This mentions the overall anti-terrorist operation, and the Odessa incident (even described as "brutal violence," which is not how usually you describe an accidental self-immolation), but doesn't claim the latter was any part of the former. But it does pass on Parubiy's promise that his forces would now push an "active stage of the operation in other towns (other than - Odessa?) where extremists and terrorists are carrying out illegal activities." --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Interim president Oleksandr Turchynov seems to divorce the two: “I have signed a decree for two days of mourning in Ukraine for the heroes who died in the course of the anti-terrorist operation and also for those who died in the tragic events in Odessa.” (citing: Al-Jazeera - good reporting from the scene) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic] (talk) 10:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One source connecting the two - 3 May, Odessa: How a peaceful rally turned into anti-terrorism operation - is from Civic Solidarity, pro-good-things group. Their narrative starts with:
 * Russia continues attempts to destabilise ... with the help of diversionists and militants. ... in Odessa local inhabitants strongly repulsed an attack of armed pro-Russian militants. As the result 46 people died ... attack on a peaceful pro-Ukrainian rally ... pro-Ukrainian activists stood the attack and began a counter-attack ... According to witnesses, pro-Ukrainian activists tried to help people who barricaded in the building to get out, but the latter shot back in return.

Whatever planning and legality there was, the May 2 Odessa ATO is again passed off as an impromptu action by "local inhabitants" whose hand was forced by Russian scum. And with that forced hand, they again are portrayed as doing nothing, except to try and help stop the terrorists from killing themselves. But they failed, sadly, and then praised each other for the "liquidation" in "self-defense" of the "Colorado beetles" that, again, they didn't do! It was legal, and it didn't ever happen! --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (sorry I keep making the same points over and over - trying to curtail it. Also, this whole section is worth front-page treatment soon, with a bit of cleanup and maybe filling in some gaps) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

A fascinating May 18 Voice of Russia article gives some context:
 * Last week the Odessa regional council outlawed the presence of illegal armed groups on its territory, according to Itar-Tass.
 * The Odessa city authorities claimed they've removed the militants from checkpoints surrounding the city. "There should be no radicals on the city streets, that’s what I think about the Right Sector. I believe that this group is being funded by some people with an agenda. There is no ideology there, everywhere these guys show up the provocations begin," regional governor Igor Palitsa said.
 * ... However, former regional governor appointed by Kiev, Vladimir Nemirovsky, claimed that the presence of armed radicals in the city was necessary in order to "keep the local police under control." Following that statement, the self-appointed secretary of the Ukraine's Security Council, Andrei Parubiy, visited the radicals and provided them with body armor and other gear.

This must be where his quote is from, not May 2 - "illegal" armed radical groups were ordered to leave, and he argued the ATO ones, apparently the same Right Sector, etc. - were legal, and even necessary, given the threat posed by the "terrorists" and their collaborators in the police. Just when is still unclear - Parubiy's visit we know of to deliver vests was at the end of April. And as explained below, there was worry about and moves against the militants - by Odessa's police - back to early April. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Policing the Police?
On May 4, the police chief Petr (Pyotr) Lutsyuk (Lutsyk), was fired. Just why is a little confused although the events two days prior are obviously connected somehow. USA Today, May 5: "Odessa Police Chief Petr Lutsyuk was fired Saturday. Yatsenyuk said investigators will determine the cause of the breakdown in police and security forces that allowed the unrest to become so deadly. But he also promised that prosecutors will bring to justice all Russian-backed organizers and instigators." Human Rights Watch - jointly with Amnesty International calling for an independent investigation - found that "in reaction to the events of May 2, on May 4 Acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk blamed police officers for the failure to prevent casualties and fired the Odessa police chief and deputy chief." It's unclear from whom they should have acted against if they had moved rightly. Anti-war added he was fired "for what (Yatseniuk) called potentially criminal failure to stop the pro-Russia protests in the city." These had been ongoing for days or weeks. Until the right-wing mobs showed up, these actions consisted of peacefully gathering signatures for a peaceful referendum.

Human Rights Watch properly emphasized the question "why the policing that day was so inadequate, in particular why the police were apparently so unprepared for the confrontation,... police failed to take action to prevent the violence," again unclear who, as "both sides" are vaguely blamed. One witness told them “the police just stood there, they saw people fighting violently but said that they won't intervene until they receive an order to do so.” This might suggest the chief approved of the violence, or there may be another reason policemen would say that. Al Jazeera's reporter there noticed an "extremely angry crowd" demanding the release of over 100 massacre survivors who were arrested, "chanting fascists, fascists, fascists." This report added "the people there did not accept Kiev's version of events," but rather "place the blame on the government in Kiev," and seemed to feel the locals might blame the chief, although "the mourning period and firing of Lutsyuk would not reduce the tension in the city."

In fact, the latter should only add to the impression of a fascist takeover; it seems the police chief was an ally of the anti-Maidan camp, and had actively opposed the Fascist mobs that might also be the "anti-terror operation." Voice of Russia reported on a rally on May 18 to protest the massacre and oppose fascism - they cleared out "when rumors spread about radicals heading there to attack the federalization proponents once again," noting that these groups are "at the beck and call" of the Kiev-approved authorities. This article states of the police chief:
 * Petr Lutsyuk, Odessa police chief who was fired after the tragedy, demanded that the Right Sector militants sent from Kiev leave the city just before the riots started. "There were a large number of people in Kiev who were left without oversight and it was decided to send them to Odessa. We don’t need that here. They came to our city and they destabilize the situation here," he said while speaking to the regional council representatives on April 4.
 * Lutsyuk pointed out numerous conflicts between the radicals and locals, and reported about a large cache of weapons and munitions belonging to the latter that was discovered by police.

April 4 is not "just before" the May 2 riots, anyway, but it seems he had warned in advance of the dangers of these thug gangs. Then as soon as his overridden fears were proven truer than anyone imagined, he was sacked, it almost seems, for failing to take care of the victims himself before then. Civic Solidarity leans the same way, and says of Lutsyuk:
 * The head of the Odessa city police was fired as local law enforcements openly supported pro-Russian militants. There are photo and video reports that show police officers were present during a pre-attack briefing for pro-Russian activists. Ukrainian authorities do not rule out that representatives of law enforcement services will face criminal liability for the events in Odessa and Donetsk as some of the top officers are suspected to be recruited and paid by pro-Russian militants.

We've seen a photo, of course. - a policeman talking to the - whoever those really were. We don't know who this is or what they were thinking, but broadly, there are three options:
 * 1) an anti-Maidan police chief helping anti-Maidan militants for their (debatable) part in the violence
 * 2) a right-leaning officer organizing the fake provocateurs, presumably not meaning to be seen
 * 3) just another right sector type like the militants, meaning to be seen in his police costume to implicate the police in option 1 (or this and option 2 at the same time)

Also of interest is who Kiev replaced Lutsyuk with. A dissenting comment beaneath a lame faux-leftist report adds that Odessa's mayor "appointed a replacement who took part in the burning of the trade building." If they did pick a man involved in the lynch mob action, then they took two opportunities to reward it - '''first they picked the mob itself. ''' A May 5 Reuters report announced:
 * Kiev drafted police special forces to the southwestern port city of Odessa to halt a feared westward spread of rebellion. Ukraine said the Odessa force, based on "civil activists", would replace local police who had failed to tackle rebel actions at the weekend. Its dispatch was a clear signal from Kiev that, while tackling rebellion in the east, it would vigorously resist any sign of a slide to a broader civil war.
 * ..."The police in Odessa acted outrageously," Interior Minister Arseny Avakov wrote on his Facebook page. "The 'honour of the uniform' will offer no cover." He said he had sent the newly formed Kiev-1 force to Odessa after sacking the entire Odessa force leadership.

And, as Voice of Russia reported:
 * former regional governor appointed by Kiev, Vladimir Nemirovsky, claimed that the presence of armed radicals in the city was necessary in order to "keep the local police under control. Following that statement, the self-appointed secretary of the Ukraine's Security Council, Andrei Parubiy, visited the radicals and provided them with body armor and other gear. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: that's not the May 2 "mob" chosen to replace the chief, except for maybe - if they'd actually been sent two days earlier, had unofficially retired Lutsyuk for the day on the 2nd, etc. ... these things seem vaguely possible, worth considering. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * However, locals considered this Kiev-1 to be at least dangerously similar: the Reuters report adds:
 * The units Avakov referred to emerged partly from the uprising against Yanukovich early this year. That could fuel anger among the government's opponents, who accuse it of promoting "fascist" militant groups, such as Right Sector, that took part in the Kiev uprising over the winter.
 * Alexander, a man in his mid-20s who said he took part in the anti-Kiev actions, agreed with Avakov that police had done nothing. "But this special new battalion, they're stormtroopers from Western Ukraine who'll be hunting our people all over the city."

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC) Further bits on the outrageous police: UNIAN reported that a busload of pro-Russian activists had actually been stopped and arrested prior to events, but were released to cause their mayhem, on orders of a senior police officer who apparently sympathized with them. TSN reported that governor Nemirovsky claimed police were often bribed to take the anti-Kiev side, and supports this with images of some officers wearing the same red armbands as the violent militants, if lower on the arm (providing the inset image).

And it went beyond the police into different sectors of civili society needing purged: citing Kyiv Post (paywalled) the Wikipedia Odessa Clashes page says:
 * Arsen Avakov, the interior minister, blamed local politicians for the events. People suspected of complicity include city council members, elections workers, police, relatives of former police officers, and active anti-Maidan campaigners. Twelve people were arrested, but their names were not disclosed.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Fucheji: Lutsyuk's deputy Dmitri Fucheji was in charge of the strangely inactive police force that allowed all the day's clashes and the massacre. Many consider him suspect, while he claims someone else set that up and he tried but failed to fix it, and later fled to Russian-friendly turf, blaming Kiev officials (plausibly) for the set-up. He and the police response are covered in a bit of detail our sub-(talk)page on the clashes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Katerinchuk
 * May 4: Major General Ivan Katerinchuk to become head of Odessa police
 * May 5: Itar-Tass
 * Right-Sector radicals and representatives of the so-called Self-defence of Maidan blockaded the building of the regional militia department here on Sunday night in protest at the release of federalizaton supporters who had been detained after the May 2 unrest. ... Major-General Ivan Katerinchuk, new chief of regional militia, who had been appointed to the position earlier in the day, came out of the building and addressed the militants. "I was in Maidan. I come out in favour of a united Ukraine and against the country's split. However, I was appointed (to the present position) only today (Sunday) and I need to look into what is going on here," Katerinchuk said.
 * He emphasized that the job of militia is "to avert an escalation of the situation and death of people, and do everything possible so that there would be confrontation any longer between various groups of protesters". In response, the radically-disposed participants in the meeting demanded that the new chief of Odessa militia reinforce the checkpoints set up around the city, and the removal of which had been demanded by his predecessor Colonel Pyotr Lutsyuk.--Caustic Logic (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

As for these civil society activist forces needed to police Odessa's pro-Russia police ... consider one of their apparent leading members of pre-Kiev-1 activity on May 2, "Flagneck" (as I dubbed him) below. He and others somehow seemed to have the police - and the fire department - "in check" already on May 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

In mid-August, Itar-Tass reports on the progress these groups had made keeping things in check: 'Revolutionary’ radicals engage in banditry in Ukraine Odessa — MP
 * Gunmen from the Right Sector group of ultranationalists and Maidan Self-Defense Force units engage in racketeering and banditry in south-east Ukraine’s Odessa under the guise of ‘revolutionary’ activity, an Odessa parliamentarian said in a letter on Monday.
 * In his official letter to the regional police, Oleg Markov demanded from law enforcement officers to look into this activity in the city, where dozens died in a fire started by Right Sector radicals and supporters from the Maidan Self-Defence Force on May 2. He also demanded setting up a working group involving public figures and media to control them. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Militants with red armbands

 * Andrey Ivanchenko
 * 3. Militants of unknown origin (hereinafter simply militants) - armed men in camouflage uniforms with red armbands, some with St. George ribbons.
 * Very suspicious that after the "disappearance" of militants with red armbands, appeared on the scene militants SS. I'm not saying that these were the same people. But ... Who were these "strange militants" - provocateurs who attacked the "ultras" and supporters of the Maidan? And it's the most exciting question! The key to an accurate understanding of what happened.
 * Eyewitnesses to Odessa carnage: Pro-Russian side, armed for war, started shooting – Olena Goncharova, Kyiv Post, May 3, 2014
 * Alexey Albu, leader of anti-fascist ‘Borotba’ Odessa, who was severely injured in the later events at the Trade Union Building, reports that the men with the red armbands were his fellow activists of the "Defenders of Odessa". In a more detailed report, Borotba members give their version of what happened that day:


 * On May 2, under the pretext of the so-called march ‘For unity of Ukraine’ (that was dated to football match ‘Chernomorets’ – ‘Metallist’) – the paramilitary squads of Ukrainian nationalist were brought together to Odessa from all over the country. They arrived by buses and by trains. From the very beginning – when they just started to gather on ‘Sobornaya’ square – among ordinary ultra-right fans too many well-equipped paramilitaries could be seen. They had shields, helmets, bats, traumatic and service weapons. Mostly - men about 30-40 years old who were evidently not football fans. Some of them had shields where it was written: ’14-th hundred of Maidan self-guard’. And these nationalist paramilitaries became the main striking force of bloody massacre of Odessa residents on ‘Kulikovo pole’ square.


 * In total there were more than thousand of nationalists that participated in the march and the slaughter that followed it. Local residents of Odessa were the minority among them, while the majority – far-right paramilitaries that were brought together there. They could be identified in particular by dialect (not typical for Odessa region), however many of them openly acknowledged and told where they came from. Local Odessa fans of ‘Chernomorets’ team have left the march at the moment when clashes started – they came just for traditional march to the stadium and when they realized that ‘visitors’ and provocateurs led them to beat local people – the majority of ‘Chernomorets’ fans (identified by black-blue scarves of Odessa club) – immediately left the so-called ‘peaceful’ march. [...]


 * When the column of nationalists marched along Grecheskaya street - a few (some 200-250 people) activists of local Odessa militia tried to stop them. But soon the opponents of nationalists were pelted with stones, bottles and stun grenades. There were heard gunshots. The activist of "Borotba" Ivan has got a gunshot wound into the belly from a military weapon. Then activists and members of Odessa militia tried to escape in the shopping centre "Athena" in the ‘Greek’ square. A crowd of far-right nationalists demanded to start a carnage against them. The far-right paramilitaries started immediately to prepare Molotovs on the square in order to set fire to the shopping center with barricaded Odessa militia members inside it. Police officers managed to save the lives of activists as they drove police cars directly to the entrance of the shopping centre.


 * Then the crowd of nationalist headed to the square ‘Kulikovo Pole’, where there was a camp of opponents to Kiev junta. Activists of ‘Borotba’, along with other activists and ordinary Odessa residents, were on duty that day in the protest camp. In total there were some 200 people in the camp and half of them - women and elderly men. [...]

Via Saker:
 * For those of you who can understand Russian, here is an extremely interesting report about the "red-banded" infiltrators seen amongst the pro-Russian, pro-junta and even the police


 * Бойня в Одессе результат провокации

Here is a full length version of the video used for proof of on both sides. The Odessa resistance first stands at barricade behind the police line. Police retreat undef Molotov cocktail fire and end up in the same line at the barricade. Resistance fires AK-47s from the merged "police" line. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * https://vk.com/video245916173_168423862

Anti-terrorist operation uses red armbands:
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlFLminrZgk#t=75

Via Antimaydan Odessa on VK:
 * ''Fuchedzhi told who was behind the unrest in Odessa Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Oak (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2, 2014, which killed more than forty people. This he told the National Bureau of Investigation Ukraine. According Fuchedzhi Yulia Tymoshenko appointed Oak "looking" in Odessa. In this capacity, Oak secretly directs law enforcement agencies of the region. 2 May Odessa police had not stopped the unrest as a result of a number of indications Oak transmitted regional leadership through the cupola MIA Oleg Babenko, who is an assistant and "right hand" of the Oak. Babenko came from instructions not to intervene, as well as to collect all the police leadership to "meeting" and discuss common issues behind closed doors with mobile phones switched off. Prosecutor Igor Borshulyak Odessa region, ordered the police to release the arrested zachischikov bloodshed - it is also a man of the Oak. Fuchedzhi claims he is one of the entire leadership of the Odessa Police was May 2 not in the office and on the street with people and tried to stop the violence, negotiated, tried to reconcile the conflicting parties. In addition, he reminded of the duty to other policemen who were inactive on orders from above. In response, he heard: "Orders are orders, Lutsyuk ordered not to interfere with him, and there is no connection."

From a comment at the Vineyard Saker: "As always, the two sides in a conflict will report opposite truths. On a Czech site that I read because of its altogether civil exchange of wildly differing opinions, I found this article of an eye-witness of the Odessa massacre on the second of May."
 * ''  On the second of May, I went shopping in the streets in the centre, when I happened on a mass of people, about two to three hundred appearing from a side street. Most of them were between 25 and 35 years old, mostly if not wearing black, then wearing dark clothes and many of them wearing so called camouflage clothes.  It's also important to note that they were armed. Almost all of them were carrying sticks (baseball bats, tool handles etc.), but also chains, knives, even shields, helms, high army boots, arm and leg pads, perhaps even bulletproof vests, and almost all of them wore masks.  First I thought these must have been some sort of film cameos, but when I walked up to them, I noticed red bands around their arms (which reminded me of the militia from socialist times), but in all they made a rather criminal impression being led (and they were really being led!), like some sort of Sudeten German squad in the Czech borderlands, to assault a police station.  And when they started shouting in chorus slogans such as "Berkut" and "fascism won't prevail", it was clear who they were. Gently said, these were so-called pro-Russian so-called activists, in Czech "Russian nazis", chanting tragicomically "ФАШИЗМ НЕ ПРОЙДЕТ". (translated from Czech)  The writer goes on saying that he observed them heading to the football stadion, looking for a fight with the fans there. He describes how they flee from the crowd towards the building of the Labour Union, where they start throwing molotov cocktails to the people standing outside. All in all, a very different account from the video you link to.  In these times, it's difficult to get a clear understanding of what is happening in Ukraine. Many Czechs don't like Russians for historical reasons (also, many of them don't like Ukrainians either because they are willing to work for a third of the pay Czechs will accept), so I don't take this account at face value.  Still, it's worthwhile knowing what others are saying, I think.''
 * The last part of this account slips too far into "omniscient narrator" mode to be credible, but the first part I tend to believe - journalists were performed for, quite likely. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Odessa Anti-Maidan
In April Odessa had a non-violent defense force – non-violent as in non-lethal. In all physical appearances they were indistinguishable from the Maidan hundreds, carrying the same type of weapons, outfit and shields. I believe this symmetry was carefully calculated to avoid any escalation in the level of violence.

At first I had problems recognizing the anti-Maidan and assumed they were Maidan forces. Then I noticed the different colors and patches. In general, the resistance in Odessa avoided Russian colors and preferred Soviet colors. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Earlier clashes
 * 30.03.2014 Одесса - первое столкновение РМ с националистами (Odessa 30.03.2014 - first encounter with the nationalists PM)
 * Столкновение Майдана и Антимайдана в Одессе. (And Maidana clash Antimaydana in Odessa. – Photos) – April 10, 2014
 * ''Today in Odessa because of people's deputy and presidential candidate Oleg Tsarev, which Evromaydana activists blocked at the hotel, there was a fight. During the fight suffered at least one person.

Motives?

 * Ukrainian Defense News Network on Facebook
 * ''According to the reports, on April 28, 2014 the leaders of Kievan junta Olexander Turchinov and Arseniy Yatsenyuk received a confidential cable from Washington urging them to neutralize by any means the threat of secession of Odessa region. It was underlined, that in case of the lost control over this strategic port in the Black Sea, new Kiev's authorities would not be able to reckon on further US, EU and IMF diplomatic and financial support. At the same time the US intelligence agents in Kiev and Odessa were tasked to provide all necessary assistance and expertice to their Ukrainian wards to perform a special operation aimed to nip the anti-fascist resistance in Odessa.


 * Note: "The reports" unexplained. A comment there asked, and UDNN responded "An insider report from Kiev. We can't disclose the source." Could be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Mikola Volkov and M. Gordienko

 * RT, May 4: Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape - identifies commandant "Mikola," shooting at the building, and phoning in a lie that he was unarmed and had been shot in the leg.
 * ONE OF THE ACTORS IN THE ODESSA POGROM WAS IDENTIFIED – UKRAINIAN COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, May 9, 2014 - This identifies the subject as Mikola Volkov, a former criminal somehow now liaising with "Security" chief Parubiy 4 days before the massacre. He was handed bulletproof vests, later seen wearing one. That might've been Parubiy he was calling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:43, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

This is the talk page, right? So blah blah ... this guy to me looked like an off-duty cop. Bulletproof vest, blue shirt, little pistol, and hanging out with a cop while placing a call to (was that straight to Interior Minister Avakov I heard he placed a call to?) Here they say he's a criminal guy, somehow deputized to be in this pogrom. at a level sufficient to be at a meeting with Andriiy Parubiy a couple days earlier. Is there anything to his cop appearance, or is that just coincidence? Was this criminal thug deputized as some kind of semi-cop, liaison with the mob type or something? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know who originally identified him but this excellent German article published on the same day as the one above has him, and another man who was seen all over the place agitating the crowd, and with Wolkow, and with Parubij. That's a certain M. Gordienko, a self-proclaimed Maidan activist with not much more information about him. Screenshot of his facebook page, talking about a meeting with the Interior ministry four days after the events. --CE (talk) 10:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * МВД продолжает зачистку "Правого Сектора": задержан одиозный "сотник Мыкола" (видео) (MIA continues to sweep "right sector": detained odious "centurion Mykola") – Russkaya Vesna, 28 May 2014
 * Arrested, then released? --Petri

G-translated:
 * According to the online edition of the Odessa "Timer", May 27, militants " Evromaydana " blocked the Interior Ministry building in Kiev , demanding the release of their accomplice detained in Odessa Nikolai Volkov , known as " Mykola centurion ," who is suspected of organizing riots.

(Is it Nikola or Mikola then?)
 * Note that today in the Odessa Police denied information about his murder of some anti-Nazi underground activists .

But for balance, he's been detained, maybe for a bit even, over the undeniable. Those he killed probably went underground starting the night of May 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Igor Kolomoisky

 * RT: Kiev protégé allegedly behind Mariupol and Odessa massacres – leaked tapes
 * Video: Igor Kolomoisky behind Odessa massacre
 * The Key Man Behind the May 2nd Odessa Ukraine Trade Unions Building Massacre: His Many Connections to the White House, Eric Zuesse, May 18, 2014

Boiko Brothers

 * Captured Pro-Kiev Member confesses Killings in Kiev, uploaded Jun 9,2014
 * Interrogation of Evgeniy Viktorovich Boiko, taken captive by Lugansk People's Republic. He says he and his older brother, Dmitry Viktorovich Boiko (a member of maidan self-defense forces) were among the group entering the Trade Union Building and killing people. They brought the corpses to a forest. He counted 99. He himself claims to have murdered 10, with a submachine gun in the back of their heads, "executed". Difficult to say what to make of it. On the one hand, the guy is obviously borderline retarded and could likely be made to say anything, on the other hand he's exactly the kind of person that would in the "right" circumstances kill ten in a rage without a second thought. Well, the interviewers now have the brother's name and phone number. --CE (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Found one Dimitry Boiko, Kiev, born 1987, on twitter. He uses an app that posts when he's at certain places. Has been to Tbilisi, Georgia from 17-25.Mai, back in Kiev at a car wash three days later and next at a food store with four buddies on Jun 7. Would fit a trip to the east. Nothing interesting and not much at all for the earlier year. And his vKontakte profile makes him look completely harmless, although certainly "pro-Western" (ridiculous cars ;o)). --CE (talk) 18:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

"Flagneck"
Extremely identifiable, probably identified somewhere, this important perpetrator is best exposed by this video (Russian titles - subtitled versions are around). shows him all over May 2's events in a performance that's flamoyant, arrogant, and seemingly empowered. Bald- wearing a sleeveless military vest, black t-shirt, and Ukrainian flah (junta-noose) around his neck. Sometimes with or without a motorcycle helmet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Earlier in the day, he's seen marching with Maidan "self-defense" forces, shouting during the clashes (2:20), riding on the commandeered fire truck with a bottle in hand (drinking - 2:42, 3:00), then tossing a molotov cocktail for the crowd (3:15), besides apparently lighting up the only place other than the Trade Union Hall to burn that day. A man in just his clothing is seen throwing in a smoke bomb after some fire had started (0:50), on Hretska street, near the Athena center, where they had some provocateurs and "Colorado" corralled.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

At the video's start, he's seen later right about where a molotov cocktail was hurled inside the Trade Union Hall, apparently in the southwest corner stairwell, 2nd floor landing. At the video's start, "Flagneck" is seen about where a molotov cocktail was hurled inside the Trade Union Hall, seeming to lead a group of masked, club-wielding militants. In a scene described here, he walks on frame putting his helmet back on, from the direction fire was just tossed, lighting another stairwell just as he and his crew descend it, --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Later that night, "Flagneck" with his junta-noose seems to be in charge of the crime scene; right-wing mob members, not police, have secured the still smoldering building. They direct fire crews. They poke at and dig in pockets of the dead. This whole tour can be seen in an odd, 40-minute video made following the leader around as he explains everything. (There are different versions around. All have bad screen-freeze, where the picture sticks but the audio continues. with French subtitles is good, running from 8:50 to 48:24 (video end). At 26:15 another body is found. Translated: "this one, who is it? Is it ours?" Video host "Flagneck" replies: "No, "Colorad."" They find and arrest still survivg "Colorado" in their corners (at least two seen), and count 25-30 corpses, with "Flagneck" acting as if he's just now finding all these people. Showing a woman with her pants down and blood from her head, next to a smashed-in door (19:39), he tells us died from smoke or poison. Even the people dead with bullet or puncture wounds, those with specifically blackened faces, he's sure they all died from passive asphixiation, or poison gas. Presented with blood and tissue on the floor (37:58), asked if that's brain, he says no, the blood just coagulates. How the accidental fire spilled it, unexplained. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Other

 * Милиция задержала «евромайдановца», подозреваемого в расстреле одесситов 2 мая (Police detained "evromaydanovtsa" suspect in the shooting Odessites May 2) – 05/19/2014
 * Доказательства: Убийца с Майдана в Доме Профсоюзов (Proof: Maidan assassin in the House of Trade Unions) – Святослав Хоробрый, May 21, 2014
 * http://vk.com/id246578562?w=wall-42832638_12901
 * Traces photos to identifiable face.
 * That is a pretty good match - I'm mostly convinced whoever that guy is (someone will have his name) can be identified and arrested, clubbed to death, whatever. That's one of our "Russian terrorists" "dropping a molotov cocktail on the roof" that is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:36, 24 May 2014 (UTC)


 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPGUJZcpHwk
 * Who is the provocateur in a black coat on this video? I think I saw him somewhere later. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Witnesses
Via Odessa Republic on VK
 * ''Survivor story in the House of Trade Unions: "I ran to the right, and it saved my life." TIMER provides its readers the story of another man who was on the Kulikovo Field and the House of Trade Unions during the tragic events of May 2. According to our source, who wished to remain anonymous first defenders tried to hold a barricade constructed at the entrance to the House of Trade Unions, but the hail of stones soon forced them to retreat into the building. According to the activist, the building has already started to burn, but people still decided to take refuge there. "Why we went into the building - no one knows - says an eyewitness. - The building people diverged who left, who right. I ran to the right, and it saved my life. " In addition, some people ran up the central staircase. According to him, the building was very dark, so the windows were shuttered. When this building was already well smoggy. Some time people tried to sit in their offices, and when suffocating smoke began to penetrate and there, rushed to the stairs. Our interlocutor was lucky he did not run to the central staircase, and to the one that was located in the right wing of the building. There also went along with him for approximately two dozen people. All of them survived. "I immediately began to shout:" Fire, fire! ". But fire came only about an hour and a ladder brought us - says the man - Even when m³ out, I shouted: "Bandera, if you're there, then leave, because burn!." He argues that escaped from House of Trade Unions mainly those who thought to escape from the fire and smoke in the wings of the building, and those who remained in the central part of or tried to climb the central staircase, died.


 * KyivPost: Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories
 * Tatiana:
 * “He was standing on the right of me. I could hear shouting: ‘We’ll kill you’. My face was to the wall and I couldn’t see, but something hit me on the head, I don’t know what it was,” said Tetiana. Her hair caught on fire but the man next to her put it out, saving her life, she says.


 * Alyona:
 * Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly seen in video footage, were not from their group.


 * However, Alyona says protesters inside may have been making Molotov cocktails, in panic, but were not very competent and failed to throw them outside. But she thinks it impossible that the building was set on fire from the inside. ... She did not see any flames. ... she and four women and eight men barricaded themselves inside the fourth floor office because they could hear people coming to attack them from the corridor.

Vania
(indirect witness) As seen in this video, Vania is the name a local man gives when telling what he heard happened at the Trade Union hall. He's apparently not a direct witness, but may have reliable information from them, and gives compelling, if troubling, details. The following is from Eric Zuesse in this article at Counterpunch, transcript of the video’s printed subscript’s English translation, retaining its typos exactly as they were shown in the film-clip (except that the curse-words aren’t shown letter-for-letter), and with clarifications added by me in red"
 * (the red never came through there...)
 * Those who were collecting the bodies said: we were walking on the dead bodies … [How many people got killed there?] If we take the whole day, 116. … They are burying them secretly. They were collecting the bodies and finished off the wounded. [Did they poison them with some gas?] Not only with gas. They used stan granades, guns, traumatic guns, pump-action rifles. They chased the people into the building and finished them there. Two guys were clubbed to death with sticks. Is it normal? Is it a f–king united country? They burned a woman with two children alive. In the first floor this woman and two children were killed. … And the Media called us … I’m sorry but I will talk [to the media]! The Ukrainian [Kiev] Media call us terrorists. But the Right Sector [a Western-oriented neo-Nazi party, prominent in the new Kiev government], the wankers, chased us up to the roof of the builing. They threw Molotov Cocktails at us and cried ‘Death to enemies’. To what enemies [he asked them]? And then they cried [out in support of] ‘United Ukraine’. [He replied] F–k the United Ukraine. F–k this countrry [the newly installed government in Kiev]. [How all this was going chronologically?] Chronologically? They came … [Were there any children killed?] There were many children, women and old people murdered. They finished off the wounded. With headshots. They jumped on their heads. The police couldn’t do anything, they only cordoned off the building. The police tried to come up, a grenade burst among them, and they jumped on the dead bodies. [Where are the rest of the bodies?] The rest of the bodies are six kilometers from Odessa. We need to go there and take them. [unclear question] My name is Vania. [He turns to go.] 

--Caustic Logic (talk) 03:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

"Inna"
An unnamed woman who survived gave her account on video (speaking to Anatoly Shary), translated to rough English transcript here. Unnamed witnesses with lots of info, liable to be cited in different spots, needs a nickname. Inna is a unisex name meaning "strong water." Sounds good. This witness has issues at both end - an unexplained survival from some room with blood everywhere," perhaps in the basement, where "the wounded were all finished off," except at least for her. - and at the beginning, when at the Cathedral square before even the clashes "i saw right in front of my eyes the ultra-nationalists cutting the throat of a 40 year old man" at the "pro-unity" rally. "They shouted to him "Slava Ukraine!" and he told them "I am just an Odessa man," so they pulled him to the ground and cut his throat." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

But these aren't fatal to her reliability and otherwise, she give detailed account with several points confirmed by other evidence, seeming plausible given what we know, and maybe very useful. She relates the decision to hole up inside, defense, medical, and tactical issues they faced, the incursion and fire-starting inside by "the ultras/fascists," and the toxic gas that caused disorientation and was sprayed repeatedly, sometimes at close-range. She relates last-ditch defenses, people shot dead, talk of rape, and a number of dead sounding higher than what we later saw. One little-mentioned but hugely important point she makes, and is confirmed: "there was absolutely no water in the building. The water was cut off before the ultras/fascists began their attacks, before the bottles with flammable liquids and "Molotov cocktails" got thrown into the building." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Clashes
I'm not sure how to create a proper sub-page for Odessa Trade Union massacre/Clashes (did the Bodelan one even get done right? or is it just the subpages section that's missing?) but this subject deserves a page with space to breathe. Who's seen doing what and when is confusing and worth digesting and mapping, etc. I had some starter material besides this, but it's not ready yet, at least to start a front page. Petri strarted us out with the location stuff and I added a map. Actually, I didn't write an intro yet either. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (moved to Odessa Trade Union massacre/Clashes) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2014 (UTC)