Talk:Ishtabraq Massacre

Killed
Facebook post, June 8 the names of the martyrs and Missing Persons (Arabic) - 178 entries, 5 released, so 173 missing or dead, with 37 specified as dead. In three groups, alphabetical by transliterated family name:

killed April 25:
 * Siham Ali, female, 55
 * Maya Ghazwan Atona female 13
 * Fawaz Mohammed Al-atrash 42
 * Mustafa Badria male 30
 * Mohamed Rajab Doba male 40
 * Musbah Ahmed Doba male 43
 * Saleh Wahid Doba male 20
 * Wesal Solomon Doba female, 60
 * Nasr Suleiman Fakhro 49
 * Mohammed Youssef hammoud male 30
 * Fatima Mustafa hammoud female, 65
 * Nafilah al Hayek female, 65
 * Ahmed bassam Hawat male 20
 * Ibrahim Younis Hrou male 60
 * Iyad Taleb Hrou 22
 * Gryab Ibrahim male, 72
 * Maram Ali khedira female, 30
 * Hossam Ahmed al-Masri male, 44
 * Hassan Ahmed, al-Masri male 42
 * Qasim Yusuf al-Masri male, 20
 * Mohammed Abdul Karim Shalfoun male 45
 * Yusuf Mohamed Shalfoun male 16
 * Aiteb Solomon female, 40

10 announcement by kidnappers
 * Riaz Mohammad Shalfoun child martyr 14
 * Abdul Karim Nader Shalfoun Female 55
 * Raghda (al-Sahliya? "coastal") Female 47
 * Rajab Mustafa Hammoud 75 -
 * Osama Jawdat Jarad Male 37
 * Ali Jamil Doba Male 49
 * Sana Mohammed Doba Female 40
 * Hassiba Ahmed Fakhro Female 48
 * Zainab Ahmed Fakhro Female 52 -
 * Mohammed Naim Khedira Male 56

Other
 * Samar Ibrahim Hrou Female 16 (just "martyr")
 * Ahmed Mohammed Abu Shukair 85 killed under detention?
 * Zaher Jawdat Jarad Male 38 martyr, Slaughtered

Missing
an Arabic list published on Facebbok April 29 (probably too early to cover any second massacre) provides 85 names. Google Translate did pretty well here (Yandex failed). Some notes now, more and some cleanup perhaps soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: some appear among those later confirmed dead - these will be stricken out as matched. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:47, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Some of the missing names God have mercy on the martyrs and to loose the families of the kidnapped and missing Full unharmed ..
 * 1) Ali Khaddro
 * 2) Rgda (??) ساحلي (translates "coastal" - neither GT nor YT will pronounce this, and mylanguages Romanization doesn't work anymore, so... until I break out the alphabet chart she's "Raghda coastal") (al-Sahliya)
 * 3) Ali Abdul Karim Shalfoun
 * 4) Wtfya? Abdul Karim Shalfoun
 * 5) Nader Shalfoun
 * 6) Khadija Shalfoun
 * 7) Mohammed Shalfoun
 * 8) Joseph Shalfoun
 * 9) "reproach" Shalfoun
 * 10) Riad Shalfoun (Riaz, age 14)
 * 11) Ahmad Hawat
 * 12) "On Behalf of" Atona (same issue as with #2)
 * 13) Ali Ghazwan Atona
 * 14) Mona Atona
 * 15) Reem Atona
 * 16) Noor Atona
 * 17) Shahed Atona
 * 18) Wahid Dopa
 * 19) Saleh Wahid Dopa
 * 20) Mohamed Wahib Doba (same name as Dopa - Doba is better)
 * 21) Mohamed Ragab Doba
 * 22) Sulaiman Saleh Doba
 * 23) Kamal Doba
 * 24) Amal Younis
 * 25) Mohamed Elmasry
 * 26) Ali Masri
 * 27) Ibrahim al-Masri
 * 28) Badria Egyptian (al-Masri)
 * 29) "immortality" Kassem el-Masry
 * 30) Egyptian Hossam
 * 31) Naim Khedira
 * 32) Munther Khedira
 * 33) gift Khedira
 * 34) Nusseibeh Khedira
 * 35) Ali Khedira
 * 36) Rabah Grad (should maybe be Jrad)
 * 37) Jawdat Grad
 * 38) Samer Grad
 * 39) Osama Grad
 * 40) Zaher Grad
 * 41) Linda Grad (Linda? Yep, in Arabic it's spelled out ﻟﻴﻨﺪﺍ )
 * 42) role-Grad
 * 43) Hanan Grad
 * 44) bian Grad
 * 45) patent-Grad
 * 46) Sidra (Cedar) Grad
 * 47) Salma Grad
 * 48) Jaafar Grad
 * 49) Jawad Grad
 * 50) Bushra Grad
 * 51) Zainab Grad
 * 52) Fatima Grad
 * 53) Ahmad Grad
 * 54) Jarad Moon
 * 55) Dla Grad
 * 56) "verse" Grad
 * 57) "dove" Grad
 * 58) Noor Grad
 * 59) "forgiveness" Grad
 * 60) Ali Habib Grad
 * 61) Baylisan Grad
 * 62) "fulfillment" Atona
 * 63) Maya Atona
 * 64) Ahmad Abu Shukair (Ahmed Mohammed Abu Shukair 85)
 * 65) Ali Abushuqeir
 * 66) "weighs" Abushuqeir
 * 67) Bilal Hammoud
 * 68) Ahmad Hamoud
 * 69) Silver Fakhro
 * 70) Hassiba Fakhro
 * 71) Zainab Fakhro
 * 72) Huda Fakhro
 * 73) Nasr Suleiman Fakhro
 * 74) Nader Solomon Fakhro
 * 75) Nasr Fakhro names
 * 76) nights Nasr Fakhro
 * 77) victory sign Fakhro
 * 78) Nasr he Fakhro
 * 79) Asmahan Khedira
 * 80) Nermin Hayek
 * 81) Rose Ibrahim
 * 82) Naim slave (ﺍﻟﻌﺒﺪ)
 * 83) Ismail al-Naim
 * 84) Mohammad Issa Doba
 * 85) "supporter" Isa Doba

Covering the Coverage
First, of course, we're a bit late, just now pegging down a massacre or two that happened over a month ago. But part of the reason we didn't see it already is this alleged horrific war crime never made the mainstream news, and also it seems like it made little splash in the alternative news. But looking back and forward, a bit, I'm curious what has been said and not and by who, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Hundreds of Chemical Rockets?

 * Source of "Hundreds of rockets, holding chemical substances fell down in Ishtabraq, prevented them from breathing, because of their resistance and facing the assault." ?


 * Sounds a bit propaganda to me. Nobody I know of has chemical rockets (122? 107?) in the country. Other missiles? Certainly not helicopters for hundreds? --Charles Wood (talk) 11:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * What? Bashair 3 isn't it, that hit Khan al-Assal? JaN, smelled like chlorine, tests say included sarin, killed 30. Little rockets, locally made- now maybe re-supplied in all kinds of ways ... somehow, having hundred available to clear an Alawite town that was too close for comfort, might be worth it. The report is real heavy on propaganda, but mainly it's in the political rhetoric ("Turkish forces," they call the terrorists). The attack details could be a separate class of info, however, that's not really axaggerated at all. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The source cited for that claim is Breakingnews.sy citing videos (still needing translated here someday)
 * The source was, they said, the people who got out. "Hundreds" could just be an honest exaggeration - chemical rockets coming down in the tens or dozens would be alarming, and might seem like "hundreds." The point is were there any? I'm inclined to believe the reports. It makes sense from a wildlife management perspective they seem to take with non-Sunnis. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

SOHR
From what I've seen, they reported on some 200 people taken hostage, but did not get any reports from their activist network about any massacre. I or maybe someone else will look into any follow-up they have or don't have. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * SOHR Facebook English page https://www.facebook.com/syriahroe - I found nothing relevant. On the website http://www.syriahr.com/ In the immediate days after, all I found was this:


 * More than 100 soldiers in regime forces and allied militiamen were captured in Jesr al-Shughour April 28, 2015	
 * Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic battalions were able to capture more than 100 persons in Jesr al-Shughour and Eshtabraq village since it took control on Jesr al-Shughour in the 25th of April, the detainees include dozens of soldiers in regime forces and NDF with their families. clashes continue around the national hospital south of Jesr al-Shughour, after a group of regime forces sneaked into the hospital to support the besieged soldiers, Jabht al-Nusra and Islamic battalions are trying to capture regime soldiers, the clashes accompanied with heavy aerial bombardment in the past 3 days led to death of dozens of civilians and fighters

2 days later they were telling someone it was 200 people total or (Al-Arabiya), and no word about any kind of massacre or abduction of civilians aside from family of SAA and Shabiha, with the rest allowed to leave unmolested? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:41, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

VDC
It's not immediately clear whether or not the opposition VDC records a version of either alleged massacre. There's certainly nothing like what's described by the sources who do mention it. But some portion of it might be reflected in their listings of people killed by "warplane shelling" (but which could really be anything)
 * April 25 Idlib civilian deaths - 34 One entry stands in for 23 people "found" by JaN executed 'by fleeing loyalists' in the besieged National Hospital complex (see here) otherwise exclusively killed by air force bombs, it says. A couple in Termala, and mostly in "Jisr Shagour." If they did list any massacred Alawi, they may not want to list them as from a known Alawi village, but rather fudge the locale just a bit. Note 31 of the 33 bombing victims are listed as adult males, which sometimes means blank, or uses a young definition of adult. But this with male names suggests it wasn't families killed, no women or children, just adult men - either fighters from one side or another, or sex-segregated captives. 29 of these men were killed in Somaa square shelling, it says, in the city square. already addressed by state media as a massacre of 30+ separate from Ishtabraq. So this isn't that, but some other culling of men from a few families to die in the town square as the ISlamists took over. (SOHR also reported it that way) The others were killed by regime shelling in "Termala" where the regime used a less gender-specific bomb (and I guess the victims were older) - a man and his non-maiden-name wife, and another adult woman died there.
 * So long story short for April 25: no record of a massacre in Ishtabraq. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * April 26 = 54 killed by shelling (all but 1 of the "warplane" type). 37 in Darkoush (20 km north of JaS) (9 women, 28 men, no children killed by these bombs) and a few in "Joseph Village" (location?) and in "Jisr Shagour", both including some children - 5 boys, 1 girl total.


 * April 27 = 21 killed and mostly in a worse day for Joseph Village - 10 killed by those damn Assad jets: a man, a woman, 6 boys, 2 girls, no clear family pattern.


 * April 28 = 6 including two unidentified young guys were "Martyred in the military security massacre barrack in Jisr Shagour." Detention-torture, not shelling, but just found in the place where the fleeing guys used to massacre people.


 * April 29 = 26: more shelling, apparently unrelated as well. Primarily men, but some mixing.


 * April 30 = 6 one reported then, died earlier.


 * May 1 = 5


 * May 2 = 2 and it was getting too peaceful - one is the baby who died from chlorine, and whose dad supposedly died days later. And that's about the whole span this massacre would have happened. Alawite massacres are sometimes listed under "regime forces" for some reason, may check that too for good measure, but later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Urs 1798
Massaker an den Einwohnern eines alawitischen Dorfes اشتبرق durch Ansar al Dine und ihnen nahestehende Terrorgruppen.#Ishtabraq #Idlib Update, Verbrechen, Folter, Mord (Massacre of the inhabitants of a alawitischen village Ishtabraq by Ansar al Dine and closely associated terrorist groups.#Ishtabraq #Idlib Update, Crime, Torture, Murder) by Urs 1798 on Wordpress (in German). This seems like a work of genius, and a huge piece, but loading the page crashes my browser. It has photos and videos, but I can only get the text in a saved doc, copied into Yandex translate. Can anyone with better luck note the images and video links and bring especially worthwhile ones over here? From the translation I got, some highlights. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's a true monster of a webpage, but I got it to load with Opera after Firefox crashed as well. Only the upper part is directly about these events. The gist is that Ansar Al-Deen and Tavhid va Jihod-Katibasi dominated killer gangs (the untranslated word "Mörderbanden"), that means Central Asians from Turkmenistan and Usbekistan, were the ones who "liberated" those villages. Videos and screenshots from their operations. Videos and screenshots of hostages. Gangs seen with children/teens traveling without any parents around, which indicates the parents were murdered and the children will be indoctrinated to become good little "muslims". 68 dead and 200 missing. One sample video that shows the "character" of these hordes without any gore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMgZXCXCEFw
 * btw, all this horrible stuff Urs deals with has literally turned on her stomach and she is in hospital since two weeks with two surgeries because of ulcers AND cancer. Send her good wishes. --CE (talk) 10:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, man... that's horrible news. I sent good thoughts, FWIW, no magic tricks here to help with. That's a serious setback that at the very least will slow down a needed page reformat so more can read her great stuff. I have that problem with her site each time and hesitate to even click it. Thanks for having a look. Seems a lot of the same stuff is coming up by other routes as well. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I've sent some more healing thoughts. Just taking time to focus on it maybe let her find her own and she'll get a lot better now. And she gets cited. I don't know if Freitag.de is prominent, or at least 'Ein Blog-Beitrag von Freitag-Community-Mitglied Dietrich Klose " but Krieg gegen Menschen, Religion und Kultur May 21, includes
 * The destruction of their Shrine was for the inhabitants of Ishtabraq of course a small incident, in comparison with the nightmare of a place at one of Ansar al Dine and other related terrorist groups, organized massacres with 54 dead and 85 Missing had to go through: (https://urs1798.wordpress.com/2015/04/29/massaker-an-den-einwohnern-eines-alawitischen-dorfes-durch-ansar-al-dine-und-ihnen-nahestehende-terrorgruppen-ishtabraq-idlib/). It is on this page still continues to Vernichtungsfeldzüge the Radikalislamisten against other religions, here are the Alawites. Their hope: The Syrian army of President Bashar Assad... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Freitag ("Friday") is one of the better weekly print magazines (far-left by US "standards"), but the section this article/blog entry is on is like "Comment is free" from The Guardian - not in print and not prominently linked on the website. But I think the community is quite big - always wanted to take a second look at that. Hasn't been around for very long. --CE (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Auto-translated snippets as posted by CL:


 * 85 name of the missing people from the place Ishtabraq have now been published, there should still be some more. It is also used by many of the injured are spoken. The number is about 200 persons indicated: https://www.facebook.com/Talimia.Kdamia/posts/523902427749244


 * This Mörderbanden in addition to the Ansar al Deen, I've been on a Youtube channel of the Caucasus terrorists “Tavhid va Jihod-Katibasi” seen, which is also in Jisr ash Shugur occurred. Their Homepage probably in Uzbek kept. I suspect you are involved in.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/04/turkistan-islamic-party-had-significant-role-recent-idlib-offensive.php
 * “Turkistan Islamic Party in Jisr al Shughur, “ Al-Qaeda out of Central Asia. Who trains these “Turkmen”! The USA and Turkey. Erdogan and Obama's state terrorism against Syria! http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/40-us-soldiers-arrive-in-turkey-to-train-syrian-rebels.aspx?pageID=238&nid=81745&NewsCatID=352


 * The terrorists also show a photo of your “medical staff”. The headgear is reminiscent of a Zionist IDF Besatzersoldaten, whether a daruntersteckt?


 * The Ansar al Deen-Twitter channel have deleted 2 images. I had them backed up.

1. For the child, they wrote, would have civilians to safety, away from the “Battlefield”. Only child, no parents or other civilians.

2. The Ansar al Din-the terrorists said that they had a as a woman clad soldiers killed. Maybe it was just a defenseless father of a family, which was forced into a dress by the terrorists before they murdered him. Who knows how many civilian corpses still scattered throughout the area are:

This photo, there are still the terrorists-also true for twittering. Also here it was said they would be refugees to safety. Other Tweets claimed the people would from the bombing of the Syrian army to flee...

What you see on this photo, looks are terrorists and children. No parents or other civilian adults.

Have the terrorists the parents killed her and kidnap the children?! Who are already voluntarily his children in Mörderhände!


 * This photo, there are still the terrorists-also true for twittering. Also here it was said they would bring refugees to safety. Other Tweets claimed the people would flee from the bombing of the Syrian army ... Another Ansar al Dine-Twitterers has the images https://twitter.com/almuhajeren1 (most likely twitter will soon censor and crime disappear) (I checked: "The profile you are trying to view has been suspended") --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

معركة النصر جبهة أنصار الدين أطفال الطائفة النصيرية في رحمة المجاهدين بعد أن تخل عنهم أباؤهم وخذلهم الجيش النصيري. Translator: “Battle Victory Front”, Ansar al-Din, community Nusayris children at the mercy of the Mujahideen after that prejudice by their parents and let them down Alnasiri army.”
 * A new photo of the “Ansar al Deen-terrorists in addition to allies, helpers, shows yet again the children in the violence of the terrorists. The Text for the Twitter of the "ansaralden2": #معركة_النصر #جبهة_أنصار_الدين أطفال الطائفة النصيرية في رحمة المجاهدين بعد أن تخل عنهم أباؤهم وخذلهم الجيش النصيري.


 * Some of the parents and the Nasari army leave, the alawitischen children at the mercy of their captors instructed... The hostages laugh into the camera, as if on command. Maybe you have your location not yet realized that their supposed Savior of their kidnappers, and are probably the parents were massacred.


 * The terrorists are the “Amir Muslim al Shishani” already have experience with massacres of inhabitants of alawitischen villages. What would this Al-Qaeda Amir say, when his little daughter “Fatima Zhara” also in the hands of fascist death squads would get?

A Aljaschmiera-Twitterers wrote of “17 is executed NDF”-defenders in Ishtabraq, more precisely, he did not want to set. He referred to Al-Qaeda, the Ansar al Deen-terrorists as rebels, that's saying a lot. There can be no truths or information expect, always on the side of Terror and terrorism:


 * The Ansar al Deen Terrorist has on his Twitter the following:


 * 1) معركة_النصر #جبهة_أنصار_الدين #جيش_المهاجرين_والأنصار أسر ثلاث عناصر من النظام النصيري بضواحي قرية اشتبرق وسيتم إحالتهم إلى المحكمة الشرعية

The Translation is a disaster: “Battle Victory Front, Ansar al-Din immigrants and supporters. Army families of three elements of the system Alnasiri Achtbrq ( Ishtabraq) the outskirts of the village and will be referred to the Syariah Court“

It may be that the pictures with the zusammengeschlagenen soldiers and the women with child on a Fahrzeugladefläche also from Ishtabraq are even pretty sure they ( 3 families of soldiers who have helped, or military families?) should be tried in a Shariah court, according to the terrorists.

These terrorists-fascists have rules about what to do with “unbelievers, or Apostates” has to happen. I dissociate myself from this religious murderous Terroristenwahn. Documentation: rules for infidels and Apostates: jannatoshiqlari.net/about_us/

Video Sham Fm: Ishtabraq. Unfortunately only in Arabic. Surviving eyewitnesses to what had fled, reports: