Category talk:Ukraine

Peace Talks
(forthcoming)

Minsk meeting
Putin meets Poroshenko in Minsk on 26 August (all 3 persons involved got Kievan Rus' as ancestor ) Well, that's better, but outcome of it appear rather  uncertain. Europe press-releasing something [ http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-14-254_en.htm ] --Chingachgook (talk) 14:52, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Unknown force with unknown, but clearly bad, purpose, claimed by UAF colonel working on POW exchange for a long time. (Rebels agree). (Well, that seems to be not controversial at all). --Chingachgook (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, if anybody who cares to read this thinks that Europe is going to bend backwards to resolve the situation, than well, I've been there sometime for quite a while, and this does not seem to me to be exactly the case, or this is not clearly visible to me at this point time. So if those guys involved in this situation will not sort it out for themselves, one way or another, I do not see any evidence that anybody will do it for them, and especially against their wishes,and at least in a reasonably near future. Exactly how anybody sees Europe getting involved, and exactly what it is supposed to do? No clue here. (There is some sort of EU association agreement with Syria, and so what good did that do? Any comments here? I just have no clue at all. There are trucks on the border with food already, I do not see humanitarian supply  to be an issue . They can stand for themselves, if nobody is pursuing an active military attack,  than it seems to lead to an OKish de-facto situation . Why not to do something in Minsk, really? (Or maybe in Kiev?) Why to go to Europe, what good that is supposed to do? No idea  --Chingachgook (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, one thing is perhaps for Europe to give credibility for any investigations taking place (and figure out a way to manage it without inflaming things by too much). Objections? Anything else? --Chingachgook (talk) 16:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

ACLOS Peace Talk
Crisis in eastern Ukraine unlikely to be solved exclusively by force - Poroshenko Itar-Tass Yeah, it cannot   --Chingachgook (talk) 22:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)  September in New York  --Chingachgook (talk) 23:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Президент України Петро Порошенко провів зустріч з заступником Генерального секретаря ООН з політичних питань Джеффрі Фелтманом, який перебуває в Україні за дорученням Генерального секретаря ООН Пан Гі Муна. Президент висловив подяку Генеральному секретарю за підтримку миру та деескалації ситуації на Донбасі  --Chingachgook (talk) 23:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Aid Delivery
Food trucks moved to the border, but were stopped till tomorrow morning by Ukraine border guard because some stupid papers were not there. Or rather border guards did not show up as they were supposed to because, they claimed, papers are not in order  They claim there is no proper paperwork regarding content of those shipments. They are not happy with just Red Cross paperwork and need some other paperwork which is not there. This is usual crap they normally give you if they want to give you a headache. (This potentially can play forever, unless there is a call from their boss  to sort this out.  ). All of that stuff is voiced by Andrei Lysenko. --Chingachgook (talk) 20:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Andrew Roth reported from Donetsk, and Nick Cumming-Bruce from Geneva. Yes, but the trucks did not cross, it appears --Chingachgook (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Andrei Lysenko: Red Cross has not received yet guarantees of safe passage --Chingachgook (talk) 21:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels, quoting Itar-Tass: border guards did not show up and did not respond to attempts to contact them. (Hm, I wonder how exactly that works, with no guards at such sort of border? Like, what needs to happen for border guards to show up on the border? )--Chingachgook (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Captured Ukrainian team planned attack on Russian humanitarian aid convoy — militia Itar-Tass, Aug 15
 * Militia in Ukraine's town of Luhansk said on Friday they have captured a reconnaissance group of National Guard tasked with preparing an attack on the Russian humanitarian aid convoy.
 * A load of weapons and ammunition was found in a car carrying three saboteurs, the militia headquarters of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic and Donetsk People's Republic said.
 * "The weapons and ammunition were hidden in bags of food," a headquarters representative said.
 * During an interrogation, the saboteurs said their mission was to plant mines along a local road and attack the Russian convoy delivering humanitarian aid to residents of south-eastern Ukraine.
 * One of the detainees said the Ukrainian army had sent seven teams of saboteurs to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and that these groups were setting up ambushes on roads leading to militia-controlled areas. 

MIA
Rebels re-broadcast this message, This are photos of soldiers of 30 Brigade UAF, which disappeared after big losses near village Stepanovka (19-20 August). Mostly from 3 Batallion. Relatives are looking for them, here are their photos. We do not know how to help --Chingachgook (talk) 01:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Servicemen and their relatives accuse Kyev of concealing heavy casualties, mothers plan protest in September (video) --Chingachgook (talk) 01:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels post their regular updates on http://rusvesna.su/, most of it is available in English, there are many human cases, somebody just need to monitor human issues they put over there --Chingachgook (talk) 01:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Володимир Рубан [ UAF] is working on POW, MIA issues for a long time on the government side. May be time to exchange details of POW and MIA issues directly, it should be known to them how to go about those things, there will be lots of cases

The say, 3500 UAF fighters disappeared --Chingachgook (talk) 03:24, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

How Russian Soft Power Will Save us All From An Ugly Future
Daily Mail wants you to know there was a moment - an exact one and photographed - in which Russian sabotage cell was captured by Ukrainian secret service with plans and weapons to bring down a plane on Ukraine's Independence Day next week. They were already doing terrorist stuff in Kharkhiv, were totally run by the SBU, and were on Putin's order to blow up another plan over Ukraine, to prove they meant it the first time, or whatever. Stopped, luckily, by our level-headed partners in security there in Nulandistan.


 * Hmm let's see here. It looks a bit rough, but I don't see the faces. So I should be worrying about all prisoners now, as I don't know exactly who those captured are --Chingachgook (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay ... this date is important. It's said Poroshenko has no plans for a cease-fire, and no motive. His best bet will be a swift apparent victory by then (the 24th), to give a warm glow to the first part of the grinding and brutal occupation perhaps to come. Russian plans for the date are feared and being demonized. Seeing how late it's getting, or at least appears (late enough either way)

"Soft power" comes from hard power + smart power, and it can just leak away. So Putin should order military strikes and ongoing support - finally - no later than this date. that is, it should be ready to go any day. Preceded by very short warning to leave rather than die, powerful blows should be coordinated with federalist forces to push the fascits further out from Donetsk, Lugansk, and Horlivka, at least, then firm estaablishment of humanitarian corridor - no expansion, just enough to protect the core of the United People's Republics of Ukraine, to ensure its survival and leave the final borders up to talks. Only force will deter these unaccountable, genocidal, cyinical, deceptive, and thoroughly insane Fascist thugs to finally force a re-thinking, a chance for peace and negotiations - between human beings.

Putin can say stuff like "for months the New York-led "world community" has blamed us for supplying arms and fighters to the people of the East who rejected the takeover of their government by fascists now bent on genocide. ... as we sat by, tears in our eyes as Ukraine was plunged deeper into brutality and deceit with no end in sight ... the people of the east under-supported, cut off from water and shelled ... our people are already paying for what I have finally delivered ... this is what a Russian invasion and Russian support looks like - you hadn't seen it before. A genocide is obviously danger... we all said never again, we mean it.

Also, it's a favor to the whole world. Maybe freed from the need (via losing the ability) to push this thing, we can let ourselves look more clearly at all the events this year and sigh with relief - Putin stopped us from having to watch ourselves mindlessly push another avoidable genocide. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

To have prisoners exchanged, first contacts to make appear to be:  Володимир Рубан [General-Colonel, UAF] (seriously working on this for a long time)    --Chingachgook (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Genocide?
Perhaps Democide is a better word, as Vera Graziadei offers as an alternate term in the excellent visual essay Ukrainian Genocide and its Cheerleaders. An excerpt, with a related image inset to the right here, and hers missing (go see the original):


 * Stage 2. SYMBOLIZATION – when combined with hatred, symbols are forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups:


 * East Ukrainians, who rose up against Russophobe post-coup government, were termed ‘separatists’ and once they started taking over governmental buildings (just like Maidaners did), they were re-termed ‘terrorists‘. Most common symbol used is an orange-and-black striped Colorado beetle (left), because it resembles the colors of the St. George ribbon (right) worn by Pro-Russians.


 * Stage 3. DEHUMANIZATION – one group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases, which should be ‘cleansed’ or ‘exterminated.’


 * a) Colorado bugs to be exterminated as ‘pests/parasites’ of Ukraine


 * Cheerleaders: CHANNEL 5 (owned by Poroshenko): ran insecticide ad (covert call for genocide/subliminal message that killing ‘Colorados’ would lead to prosperity of the country) which encourages to kill Colorado Beetles by fumigating them from a canister bearing black and red colours of Praviy Sector’s flag.


 * ...Stage 7. EXTERMINATION – it’s extermination to the killers, because they do not believe their victims to be fully human: Odessa Massacre, Luganks bombing, Mariupol killings, Slavyansk shelling.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

'Road of death' is a Geneva and Helsinki event. Road of death guys made a passing comment like "I do not even know how to describe it, it is not even a murder, how do they call it, genocide or something I guess". Well, in response to this comment, that thing clearly violated the war conventions and human rights, and some human right group should have this matter flagged. Rebels were wearing a military-style uniform (sufficient to distinguish them from the other side--and that's about all they were really supposed to do). "Combatants" and "civilians" in that case were clearly distinguished. Ambulance had a visible red cross on it, not much was left from the ambulance car. --Chingachgook (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Kiev has made a big deal the Russian weapons were used to kill the innocents here, as people start to notice Kiev has no motivation to cease firing. Lots of allegedly self-destructive behavior like that may be planned. I do hope it can be stopped, but it ain't starting to get stopped yet... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Documentary: Donbas: Chronical of Genocide (Graphic, vulgar, brutal - 18+) One hour, 37 minutes. Lots of shelling victims, a fascinating interrogation, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, there are some questionable aspects of that video, where it strays from straight documentation. At the end, it seems to claim all the junta leaders in Kiev are crypto-Jews, and gives the real last names all, even Yatseniuk. Is that one part dry humor, or totally serious? Not sure... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's indeed very unfortunate and problematic for sharing it. But it doesn't make what's before it less remarkable. Watched it after your recommendation, heartbreaking. And I looked up some of the names they claim. On wikipedia level of research it seems they're right in true Nazi fashion that Timoshenko and Klitschko are "quarter jews", meaning one of their grandparents were jews (with the names given). --CE (talk) 11:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Yatseniuk's Subhuman Comment
This is only one point in a broader pattern of dehumanization, but one that gets cited for its prominence at least. On June 17, then-the Ukrainian embassy in the United States published part of a statement by then-PM Arseniy Yatseniuk where he repeated the overriding opinion in Kiev that pro-Russian separatists are "subhumans." That's not at the link, of course; Speaking of soldier recently killed in the invasion of the east, he said "They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly" who, he said, were "facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them inhumans." But as numerous screen-grabs available around show (Moon of Alabama's), it did say subhumans before. It should have, grammatically - that's a known noun that fits. Inhuman, an adjective, was inserted as a made-up plural noun. Spellcheck doesn't like it.

The implication of "inhuman" is supposed to be different and less Nazi-evocative than what he wrote, or they (embassy staff?) wouldn't have changed it. Inhuman simply means not human, not menschen - maybe unter, maybe uber, or just off to the side. Usually inhuman is a bad thing (lacking in the nobler human traits like mercy - though inhumane is made just for that). But here, maybe he means super-human aliens, or ethereal ghosts, or something? The grammar was never fixed - how to even read this? those threatening to kill are invaders (Russians, alleged) "and sponsored by them inhumans." Unless it means to say "those inhumans," unspecified, who sponsored the invaders ... it probably should read "(Russian) invaders and inhumans sponsored by them." The other, sponsored, party is Ukrainian federalists.

At least, the armed portion of those aren't even human, but he's less clear on the rest of the populace. By the rules, the children of these armed men (and women sometimes) can only be half-human at best, and half or more ... not. As noted, the Colorado Beetle is widely considered clever and apt. That's definitely subhuman. And they're to be wiped out, cleansed, like a filth or a vermin: "we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them" - the armed rebels and/or invaders who resisted Kiev's invasion, "and then by cleaning our land from the evil."

The "evil" being ... hm, good question? This is after they've killed those who killed their heros. What else is there to call "the evil?" It seems related to the inhumans, as if it spawned them. Any guesses? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe Yats was really talking in German, saying Untermenschen with a hitleresque rolling R ... an then someone also thinking in German changed subhuman to inhuman, because what would literally translate to inhuman is the German word Unmensch, which my dictionary translates as "barbarian, brute, fiend" and would be more "politically correct" in denouncing those dreaded "terrorists" in the East. --CE (talk) 11:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Right Sector
Via Moon of Alabama:

''The Right Sektor is just storming the parliament in Kiev. They demand the head of the interior minister who's troops killed their comrade. Live video here


 * http://www.ustream.tv/channel/kutiepov13

Satellite photos
Something to investigate:
 * NATO’s Russian troop build-up satellite images ‘show 2013 drills’ – April 10, 2014

Another: Regarding images of Russia shelling across the border - this guy says one image anyway (claiming to prove a lack of Ukrainian forces in a certain area?) is taken right from some fake satellite imagery used in a video game. (Or, was it not really fake but just stock Ukrainian imagery? In context, that would be fake too) (Or, is this one of those modern games where users can insert their own images/can it be shown to be there prior to the recent use by Kiev?( (or, is Parubiy a known player of this game? Etc.) The compared images do seem to bear out the total image match, whatever it means. Worth checking into. Someone else published the info first - on-screen text would help track down who, where, how. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * BUSTED! Kiev's U.S. 'Satellite Images' of Ukraine Are From A 'Video Game'! (Youtube "video")


 * I have retweeted on July 25 a tweet containing the original video, a rather failed attempt to match it to Russian satellite data and the rather plausible debunk claiming the factory shown is some generic piece of infrastructure from a simulator. It's supposed to show the BUK launch. --CE (talk) 12:40, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay - that's the same generic image/texture, but it's not clear from that Kiev forge this. It's ridiculous. It's "no comment," no description, posted July 24 by "Lincoln Staarka" AJSR says Kiev/US did forge this, but I need to see them promoting it before I believe they did (saved anyway, pending...). Generic texture or not, that's so obviously fake! A still image panned over ("Ken Burns effect") with a smoke trail animation - as if satellite just hover and pan over an area like a surveillance camera. Did they really? The other guy, again. made it sound like a different later situation, not the Buk launch, and a still image with no stupid animated smoke trail, I thought...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (Quick) Checking Youtube for any posting of this fake video in support of either story yields nothing. Ukrainian or English, the cross-border shelling images are different, and I see no videos claiming to be satellite footage of the MH17 launch. I see nothing yet against calling this a hoax. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, when I've seen it the YT video had a description. I think ASJB's claim is of "double fakery" or how do you call it, reverse psychology or so? In the second tweet trying the match there is a comment with a link that goes to what might be the original upload, and I think the description is the same the youtube video had. "Banderas got caught this time exactly." etc. And AJSB thinks it's just produced to keep the Buk myth alive. Or something. Was in a hurry when I posted the three tweets and now see that your video treats the material in a different context. Apparently BS-recycling... btw, as to shelling the border - the OSCE observers observed that on Sunday ... from Ukraine to Russia. *grin* --CE (talk) 17:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's closer. That's the video, also July 25, title translates "Ogoni ZRK 'Buk' by airplane, Ukraine streamrip.17.07.mp4" Airplane, not satellite? Description:
 * Foreign weather satellite recorded the moment of the complex "Beech" in the infrared. Bandera caught this time specifically. White field, because shooting is done in the thermal range and, accordingly, dark soil is strongly heated. For this reason, the cooling is fast disappearing from the rocket trail. No need to argue, than survey was conducted, it is possible to land remote sensing satellite or high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft - it does not matter now and early to reveal sources. Video is published to those who need to know - control is maintained, videos - there. Perezalivat, because the original is permanently removed, it is also reuploaded.

Comments: skeptical to dismissive - the word fake appears a few times. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

ATO Toll
There have been various reports from each side about casualty figures in Kiev's "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO).
 * UN OHCHR gives a new figure to Human Rights Investigations: Casualties in east Ukraine Aug 14
 * Cécile Pouilly, a spokesperson of the OHCHR has confirmed to HRI that: - At least 2,086 people have been killed and at least 4,953 wounded in the fighting in east Ukraine since mid-April until 10 August. 
 * In her statement to Reuters, Cécile Pouilly is quoted as saying the figures given are “very conservative.” --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Slavyansk: Something coming up?

 * ''Moved to Talk:Slavyansk

GRAD fire from Russia?

 * ''Moved to GRAD fire from Russia?

Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

 * ''Moved to Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

Jailbreaker Rocket Attack

 * Ukraine Rocket Attack Leads to Mass Jail Breakout AP, August 11
 * Rockets slammed into a high-security prison Monday in the rebel-held city of Donetsk, igniting a riot that allowed more than 100 prisoners to flee, authorities in eastern Ukraine said.


 * Donetsk city council spokesman Maxim Rovinsky said a direct rocket hit killed at least one inmate and left three others severely wounded. In the chaos, he said 106 prisoners escaped, included some jailed for murder, robbery and rape.

...
 * The prison break became possible after a substation providing the building with electricity was damaged, disabling the facility's alarm system.


 * "Extremely dangerous prisoners are now free. It is hard to know the extent of threat this poses to the city, which is flooded with weapons," Rovinsky said.

Will Kiev proudly claim it freed political prisoners, or will it blame "Russians" for re-infecting Donetsk with its own most vile criminals? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Claims the FSB plans to assassinate Donetsk Peoples' Republic leaders as soon as their usefulness is through (ie when Kiev's forces win) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * http://20committee.com/2014/08/07/latest-ukrainian-intelligence-news/


 * Horlivka, near Donetsk, horrible video: August 14. (copy successfully saved) A civilian car is shown after being his on a city street by what might be SU-25 cannon fire, or some such. Inside, three dead people. A middle-aged man, driving, apparently had his throat shot out. Likely wife in the back seat, back of head blown away. Likely teenage/young adult daughter, also dead. Lots of blood under the car too - someone killed massively in the open, or maybe from another car, since removed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Lugansk

 * Russia commands to destroy the city of Lugansk Ukraine@War - decides an increase in random shelling of residential areas in Lugansk is by Russians, and increasingly "lurid" videos of the dead suggest "Russia is going to create a massacre in Lugansk" with shelling, right until the LPR defenses are worn down and the people can be "liberated from the Russian terror," like in happy Slavyansk. A tweet is cited claiming "From Gubarev's own website! "Don't pass up any opportunity to engage in some atrocity that can be blamed on the junta's fighters."." Wow, a tweet citing a guy's own website, can't be any flaws in that smoking gun admission. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

African mercenaries?
It may be a pure coincidence, but many of the narratives we have heard in Libya and Syria are popping up. Now we even have African mercenaries! Or African-American to be more exact. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Slovo o Polku Igoreve (Kievan Rus'--1185 c.e.)
" Не лепо ли ны бяшетъ, братие,

начяти старыми словесы

трудныхъ повестий о пълку Игореве,

Игоря Святъславлича?

 "

Around 1185 c.e.

Well you unknown pointless bad force, may the force NOT be with you --Chingachgook (talk) 05:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)