Talk:Aleppo prisoner massacres

Location?
The massacre sites are on tree-lined streets with a recognizable patterned concrete on the sidewalks. The area just around the Hanano Barracks (map) is too old, with narrow alleys. -- Petri Krohn 06:37, 12 September 2012 (EST)

The location is a tree-lined east-west south-east to north-west street with 5 story houses on the northern side. Closed shops line the south side. In the west, the street ends in an intersection with a south-west to north-east east-west road. About 60 meters from the intersection the street makes a slight bend to the north. The general appearance of the street is central and uppers class. Streets in the Saladin neighborhood have a similar appearance. (photo) It should be easy to identify the street on Google Earth. (So far I have not succeeded.) -- Petri Krohn 11:55, 12 September 2012 (EST)


 * This neighborhood looks a bit similar. -- Petri Krohn 13:51, 17 September 2012 (EST)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-HPXv0xaHo&t=4m58s

Thoughts, basic: If this massacre of civilians by Assad's forces IS the same scene as the one where soldiers were killed by rebels, then... they even confirm the 45 total number in spots. This is bad/good. I'll start looking. Glad you have a good guess to narrow down an area, as Aleppo is just too big to hunt and peck around at random. Syrian persepctive specifies "the Northeastern side of Hanano District," presumably near a large base-looking area... These are first thoughts. I'll familiarize myself more with your work before digging in, soon. --Caustic Logic 18:50, 16 September 2012 (EST)

Actually, I just looked for a map of the Hanano area, in an image search. It has train station, stadium, etc. See here. Google maps gives the train station, with a park, a stadium, etc ... all rotated a bit different. A big complex just down the street: Arabic label, hover-over says Hanano barracks. Out front, a tree-lined street, sort of E-W, ending at a roundabout (might look N-S by cutting it. You have the street view worked out- think   this is it? If so, that was easy. But I'm not seeing that northern bend. --Caustic Logic 19:00, 16 September 2012 (EST) (I see you already looked there)


 * The details that make me believe both massacres are on the same spot:
 * Similar pavement with similar trees.
 * Light shining through alleyway seen on street and tree, sidewalk cut for driveway in both scenes. (Also in August 11 beheading video)
 * What looks like a pile of 2 to 5 bodies under tree in front of alleyway is seen on both crime scenes.
 * -- Petri Krohn 13:37, 17 September 2012 (EST)


 * I'll be looking at the video imagery. In the meantime, I couldn't find the Akramia neighborhood some cite. The Sabaa Baharat neighborhood must be the area around Sabaa Baharat square, which has fountains, near the Great Mosque, on Abdel Mounem Riyad Street. All I can see for that is the courtyard right out front of the mosque: Google maps, see first photo on Wikipedia page. --Caustic Logic 18:02, 17 September 2012 (EST)


 * On documents.sy they speak of "al-Sabee Bahrat area of Aleppo province". Don't know what "al-Sabee Bahrat" means but it must be something important as there's also a central square of the same name in Damascus. From casual view (hadn't have time to make myself familiar with this event) I don't think the place looks like near a central square in Aleppo City ... maybe it's really somewhere in "province". Short look on wikimapia didn't bear fruits. --CE 18:59, 17 September 2012 (EST)
 * From the wikipedia photo, it seems like the 'square' is at the roundabout, but i hear it's supposed to have fountains in the middle (seven IIRC), and closest I see is a pool and some plaza at the mosque. So ?? I'm sure it's the hood in question, anyway, and the photo and map loc match (including the semi-distant minaret of that one other mosque just south). Maybe a placeto look for matches... (groan) --Caustic Logic 22:47, 17 September 2012 (EST)


 * I do not think this can be anywhere near "al-Sabee Bahrat". 1) That is government-held territory. 2) Different layout. The visual appearance is most similar to the Saladin neighborhood. Still have not found any match. (I am navigating on the 6/26/2011 map on Google earth as it has the best colors and highlights trees.) -- Petri Krohn 13:25, 18 September 2012 (EST)


 * Whether or not we can find the spot in Aleppo's wiggly old shadowed streets, the match of body piles is crucial. Petri, I agree the type of trees, light, pavement, and date synch all suggest the same basic crime scene. If the above directions are right, this is a courtyard off the south sideof the street, a tree just out front, pretty upright-seeming, mid-size trunk (shadow of another just west of there, or the same tree's outer leaves? will have to review). Didn't see the driveway cut, will review. Then, Looking west over the soldiers, behind the rebel in pink, is a tree - only one, it seems, so it'd have to be the one, but leaning out a bit more than it seems in that glimpse, and ... a pile of something in the street right there? Consistent? --Caustic Logic 22:47, 17 September 2012 (EST)


 * Yes, right there. What made me believe they are the same scene is that I could see the whole street scene from the alleyway video, days before the street videos appeared. Then, it could still be a coincidence. Location on Google Earth would help in confirming the alleyway is on the same spot. -- Petri Krohn 07:33, 18 September 2012 (EST)


 * I studied the shadows of the trees and their direction more closely. They do not look the same. This tree may be some type of acacia. This looks different. If I estimate the time of day and consider the direction of the shadows they do not quite match. They do however show systematic behavior. If thte piles are not the same, then we have four piles of bodies, which would make this combined massacre even bigger. -- Petri Krohn 08:39, 18 September 2012 (EST)
 * Hm, and just when I was coming around. I'm not sure the shadows are clear enough to mean different trees. The one is at an angle, possibly muddled. Only if the arrangement is off. A pile of something just under a tree is at both scenes? Maybe it's two scenes... Hmmm...--Caustic Logic 19:39, 18 September 2012 (EST)
 * In fact, are we clear there aren't two trees there? --Caustic Logic 21:52, 18 September 2012 (EST)

Shadows
From the shadows cast by the balconies in these two images is should be possible to calculate the height of the sun, and thus the exact direction of the street. This would help a lot on locating the spot. -- Petri Krohn 13:04, 19 September 2012 (EST)

The NOAA solar calculator says, the the sun was at 59.64 degrees in Aleppo railway station on noon on September 7th. The sun in the photos is very near 60 degrees making it about noon. -- Petri Krohn 13:23, 19 September 2012 (EST)


 * I sampled some shadow lines, three spots, as seen looking (east?). All came out about the same, almost exactly 60 degrees. Good call. NOAA says solar noon was 11:30, 61 degrees altitude. This is a problem for linking the sites, if this is anything like we thought (this shaded side being the south or even SE/SW side of the street). If half the street is still shaded at just about solar noon, no way is the civilians video (#1) the same location-the shadow isn't even over the whole sidewalk there. (panoramic view doesn't work so well or show much in that case - some kind of assessment forthcoming) --Caustic Logic 18:31, 22 September 2012 (EST)

Time Frame
How closely linked in time are the two massacre scenes? Both in Aleppo, both surrounded by happy rebels, both on similar streets. It almost seems the videos emerged at the same exact time, but the soldiers story broke only on the 10th, and the dead civilians video is dated Sept. 5. So ... ? Petri? --Caustic Logic 19:46, 18 September 2012 (EST)


 * The first videos of both massacres were first published September 8th. -- Petri Krohn 23:41, 18 September 2012 (EST)


 * I checked that myself right afterwards. I just wondered if you had any further insights from looking deeper. So one was held back three days, apparently, or perhaps both were? From the other reports, does a soldier massacre as early as the 5th make sense? Doesn't have to ... law od superposition sort of suggests the alley prisoners were killed first (remaining hidden in a fairly safe base area) and the soldiers/medics (all fraternizing somewhere vulnerable?) could be brought to the same site. But then again, if that pile seen is the same ... it was there on, apparently, the 5th. But perhaps not the row? Hm... Sorry to have way more questions than answers. --Caustic Logic 09:16, 19 September 2012 (EST)

Videos
It seems that two of the videos were first published by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. Here are copies.

Video 1, civilians in courtyard

 * FNN Syria Aleppo a massacre in Al Akramia district by Assad forces 5 9 2012
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFaf9Cs3wbc
 * Published on Sep 8, 2012 by fnnsyrianews


 * +18 SYRIE Massacre de civils innocent par les terroristes de "l'armée libre" ASL à Alep
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIPBKEDMODA
 * Published on Sep 9, 2012 by VeriteSurLaSyrie


 * 45 Men Summarily Murdered In Al-Akramia, Aleppo- Area Under 'Free Syrian Army' Control **Warning Graphic**
 * http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5fb_1347135768
 * Original comment: A grisly sight of a large group of dead and bloody men in a shady alleyway in Aleppo, many of the men still have their hands bound and the bullets mark the wall. There are used bullet cases around the bodies. This suggests that the bodies were not dumped in the alleyway but were executed there.

Video 2, soldiers on pavement
Originally published be the Salman Al Farisi battalion, Free Al Bab Brigade
 * نهاية الأمن على يدكتيبة سلمان الفارسي لواءأحرار الباب والشرق
 * End security on Acanutabh Salman Persian Oaahrar to the door and the Middle
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hq6p-VofMQ
 * Published on Sep 8, 2012 by slman alfarse


 * Copies


 * جثث شبيحة بشار الأسد بعد القصاص +18
 * (Bodies Hbihh Bashar al-Assad after retribution +18)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEXmXYJ1WFA
 * Published on Sep 9, 2012 by T868h


 * تصيفة عناصر من القوات النظامية في مدينة حلب +18
 * (Tsifh elements of regular forces in the city of Aleppo +18)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSVuxuschi8
 * Published on Sep 10, 2012 by syriahro


 * Execution In Street By 'Free Syrian Army' - 25 Prisoners Tied And Blindfolded
 * http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc6_1347309910
 * Added: 1 day ago Occurred On: Sep-9-2012
 * English translation: Battalion of Salman Al-Farisi...

Video 3, soldiers on pavement

 * 21 Captured Syrian Soldiers Massacred by Wahhabist "Rebels" in Aleppo
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FCXuOyc4zQ
 * Published on Sep 10, 2012 by SyrianArabArmy4ever

August 11 beheading
A video was posted on YouTube around August 12 shoving a beheading in Aleppo. The pavement of on the sidewalk is similar, indication it could be the same place. -- Petri Krohn 08:08, 12 September 2012 (EST)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhTK86Q76Aw
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvswiFravI

...and what do you think is happening here? -- Petri Krohn 09:11, 18 September 2012 (EST)
 * + 18 عملية قوية لابطال الجيش الحر على جسر الراموسة 9 9 2012 (+ 18 strong process to revoke the Free Army on Bridge the Ramouseh 9 9 2012)

Page Development Ideas
Female Victims: Fascinating stuff so far Petri! Just now taking a closer look and wanted to comment on that rare image I think you have read right. Army jackets wrapped around them to obscure the fact, but the pastel pants just don't fit. This should become a big story. - Caustic Logic (belated sig --Caustic Logic 06:44, 16 September 2012 (EST))

This page deserves to be placed up front, or at least will once it's clarified a bit. I think connecting the 20 and the 20 spatially is crucial to double-check and explain. Finding the area would help, but if the videos are clear enough, that might do the trick. If it's 15 soldiers, 20 civilian men, and five women at the same rebel crime scene, that is important to note. Sorry I haven't been much help yet - tonight should be good to finally get immersed and get more helpful. --Caustic Logic 12:17, 17 September 2012 (EST)


 * It would be ~20 civilians + ~20 soldiers, 5 of them women + ~5 more soldiers in another pile down the road, under the next tree, in front of the alleyway. I should upload more frames of the video and finally confirm if it is the same place or not. -- Petri Krohn 13:04, 17 September 2012 (EST)


 * From the new HRW report (judgement: better than nothing):


 * Human Rights Watch has also reviewed more than 15 videos on YouTube that appear to show extrajudicial executions of people in the custody of armed opposition groups. The most recent such video was posted on September 10 and shows what appear to be the extrajudicial executions of 21 government soldiers in the city of Aleppo. Human Rights Watch cannot independently confirm the authenticity of these videos. Human Rights Watch opposes the use of death penalty in all circumstances.


 * No mentioning of civilians and women killed in this event, but the report only scratches the surface anyway. Just leaving it here FYI. --CE 23:55, 17 September 2012 (EST)

Considering the ambiguities... Perhaps this main page should be re-named or moved to deal with possible interplay or sameness between the scenes, and two other pages should be made, one dealing with the civilian massacre, and one with the soldiers, including the possible women. Might take a bit of work, but could free up the two analyses to proceed with or without a match. --Caustic Logic 10:21, 23 September 2012 (EST)

Text Reports
AlManar: Army Regains Hanano District as Aleppo Attacks Claim 30 Victims http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=68011&cid=23&fromval=1

Reuters: Syria Video Purports To Show 20 Soldiers Believed To Be Executed In Aleppo http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/syria-video-soldiers-executed_n_1870992.html
 * ''Amateur video posted on You Tube on Monday showed images of 20 dead Syrian soldiers, blindfolded and handcuffed, after they were apparently executed in the northern city of Aleppo.

Two videos showed the dead men dressed in army fatigues and kneeling in a long line along a road with their bloodied heads lying on the pavement. It was not possible to verify the authenticity of the videos. Rami Abdulrahman, head of the British-based opposition watchdog the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said that four people in Aleppo had told him of the incident which happened on either Friday or Saturday.

Voice of America: Syrian Rebel Video Appears to Show 20 Executed Soldiers http://www.voanews.com/content/syria-aleppo-fighting/1505348.html
 * In the video published Monday, the bodies of men dressed in military fatigues can be seen lined up on a pavement with their heads bloodied. The men were blindfolded and handcuffed. Rebels also can be heard calling the dead men "dogs." 

Anti-War.com: Syrian Rebels Execute Captured Soldiers in Aleppo http://news.antiwar.com/2012/09/10/syrian-rebels-execute-captured-soldiers-in-aleppo/ "The soldiers were from the Aleppo district of Sekenat Hanano but they were killed in the district of Sabaa Baharat," he said by telephone. ''


 * When I first wrote here I was still inside the breaking news cycle. Now, this is old, and maybe not so relevant. I would have expected the Syrian media to report on these victims by now, including the names of the female victims. So far I have heard nothing. The above Western coverage is all based on the videos alone, without any local knowledge. -- Petri Krohn 08:42, 18 September 2012 (EST)

Video frames

 * Video 1, civilians in courtyard


 * Wow, gallery tag, coolo. Wasn't aware of that. I agree with CL though that the article itself should only use the really significant pics, no overkill. --CE 08:04, 18 September 2012 (EST)
 * It's ideal to have a good spread to establish details. The number currently up-front on the main page is good for visualizing the scene(s) and would look better with article in between. This back page list is awesome. I don't know how much space there is, etc... but there might be more than needed (not by much). I'll look them over later, make notes if helpful, etc. Oh, and maybe do some stitching into panoramic views, eh? Blend three into one? Thanks, Petri! --Caustic Logic 21:32, 20 September 2012 (EST)
 * Don't think space is any problem. I just can't promise that I will be able to follow all uploads and download them, so again, please take care that you all have your own uploaded pics handy locally, in case we have to move at one point. --CE 22:04, 20 September 2012 (EST)


 * I was hoping to get a "panorama" view of the western end of the street.
 * Experience has taught us that is is vital to locate the massacres. Only a location allows us to identify individual crimes. Without a location and date we never know if sources are referring to the same or different scenes. For location we need sun angles.
 * So far I have ruled out every street in Aleppo – ten times over! -- Petri Krohn 00:43, 21 September 2012 (EST)
 * That's what I don't have time for. But here is video 2's east-ish view and video and video 3's west-ish view. Next, video 1 and some comparison stuff. --Caustic Logic 20:53, 21 September 2012 (EST)
 * Thank you! Perfect! -- Petri Krohn 01:48, 22 September 2012 (EST)

Victory Front publishes photos of execution
القائد السعودي «ابو مجاهد» يعدم 30 عنصر من الجيش السوري ميدانيا – October 03, 2012

Saudi leader «Abu Mujahid executed 30 element of the Syrian army in the field

Published Front victory of al Qaeda in Syria image for the execution of elements of the Syrian Arab army after they documented their eyes and handcuffed, for it comes from the leader of the group fundamentalist al-Qaeda called "Abu Mujahid" Saudi nationality that appears in the picture which is the execution field right elements of soldiers Syrian Arab army.

The commander Abu Mujahid Saudi nationality oversees the killings and slaughter personally against soldiers Syrian Arab army and citizens who prove Tadim of the Syrian regime, also serves in the planning and preparation for bombings targeting public places, according to information leaked from the Front victory Levant.

were sites fundamentalist extremist's dealt with under the heading brothers jihadists in the Levant in the biggest revenge of the regular army Asadi, and passed and Arab media Bzerikh weak, but after foreign newspapers described the incident "a disaster against the Syrian revolution."

More beheadings

 * Grisly video allegedly shows Syrian rebels forcing child to behead unarmed prisoner