Talk:April 29, 2011 in Deraa

Video Analysis
I broke the bad habit by going right to main page here with no talk, but in spots, the front page isn't so good. And I was about to rush this report through, finally watched the last parts of the long video. Should have before. I could use any second thoughts on the parts already covered up front, or on this segment.

41:10, presumable soldiers again at the "front line" of the highway, crouched behind that pole, shooting from someone continues - sometimes from them - there's smoke, from smoke bombs I suppose (one distinct puff appears) - they have AK-47s, there are 4 of them, with others nearby - they creep up on the pavement at 41:55, firing towards vid 2 location - creeping along its edge towards the back of the car - 2 protesters still cowering just on the other side, moments from arrest - maybe they were injured? Arrest not shown - the video cuts at 42:15.

Video resumes later, with different light - it's not sunset, just got cloudy, some minutes to an hour (?) has passed, I estimate it's 5:20-5:50 pm here, sun from up the road basically - so about 3 hours after first shots. It's filmed from another spot, behind a wire mesh window. No one is crouching behind the car now. The presumable soldiers are going back into the compound with (a detainee? in a bulletproof vest?) He's walking fine now, but they seem to be beating him up, pushing him down as soon as they're a few feet in. Occasional gunshots, a soldier standing guard on the highway, but otherwise really quiet, no clear sign if anyone else is left or not.

Not sure how to call this. But the mass arrest of several hundred must have started right after this? No, first there's more shooting, maybe inside the compound area around 45:15, and at the highway in front of the gate, and then the video cuts. THEN they poured out and started nabbing Mahmoud and Hamza and the rest? --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:52, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * One outside thought on seeing this - the detainee (center person in white shirt and black vest) is shorter and heavier than most. Hamza looks (to me) like a big-sized kid, tall for 12/13 besides heavyset ... what if that's him, left in a bulletproof vest by the car because he 'couldn't run' (when someone stabbed his right knee?) and was 'too heavy to carry' - until these 'soldiers' from the (perimeter of the) base came and took him into their perimeter? The official story says his body was found inside the compound... he was shot 3 times in the chest, probably after being bound, and clearly with no vest then ... hmm... so just who these soldiers really are could be very important (or not - that's a lot of imagination involved there). --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:27, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Thamer

 * copied from Translation Requests

2 boys arrested or killed April 29, 2011, one of them very famously - morgue photos leaked in March, 2015 by "Caesar" of affiliates via Zaman al-Wasl - I tried making out the apparent abbreviations next to Thamer's unusual number. Looks like a modified Aliph (A), then Shin (sh), so maybe short for ash-shahid, the martyr? Below, an unclear shape/symbol. Then the big 12, unusually done in Western Arabic numerals. Every translation/connotation we can get from this helps establish what this shows. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * It is just the number first written in numeric form then in words
 * 12 أثنى عشر
 * 12 Twelve
 * --TogetherSy (talk) 14:36, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Huh, strange. This boy has strangely varied numbering. 12 in E.Arabic on a card, in W.Arabic, and spelled out, on this tape, and also in E.Arabic tiles in one morgue photo. I don't know why - maybe as a document of terrorism to show (in diplomatic circles?) to different audiences ... ?? --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Those numbers intrigue me. The sequence, the tampering with them, and the entity that issued them. The sloppy date on the forehead of Mahmoud Al-Abdulrahman, that was discussed yesterday seems to be a sequence number of either 7 or 8 that was later sloppily turned into a date. As if number 7 in hindi numerals was written then someone later filled the date making use of the shape as a date divider and writing that odd shape 23 and filling the month & year.
 * If this lad is number 12, who is number 11? Who is number 1? and what is the last number in the sequence. I tried to open the SCFMD site, but they blurred out the numbers, why did they do that? And from where did you get the photos with numbers not blurred out?
 * --TogetherSy (talk) 01:34, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I saw a 7 on Mahmoud as well, or an 8 with jumbles added (Hindi? I thought W.Arabic was what's called "Indian numbers"?)). Either number is open. Seems to be unidentified bodies, probably order found or logged at the hospital, and maybe per the one incident only. 28 victims returned, per reports, (see correaltion table on main page, all "t" victims) and numbers seen are 4, 10, 12, 22, 23, 27, 28 (and maybe 7 or 8). They aren't Caesar photo victims in the SAFMCD database except Mahmoud, or maybe another I don't recognize (no Hamza or Thamer, or any others I've seen). Why they blurred the numbers is hard to say ... likely to hide something. I've had a few guesses, and maybe there's no one reason. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:33, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Mahmoud Al-Zoubi
More questions about fellow victim Mahmoud Al-Zoubi - video of the martyr includes forehead and chest tape (good views inset), ID card, official paperwork, and narration. I'd like to know what the paperwork says (or is said to say), and if any sense can be made of the scribbles on the tape. words? letters? numerals? symbols? What does the narration add about how and when the man died and how they know that. How did these activists obtain his ID card? --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:57, 15 May 2016 (UTC)


 * This is the transliteration of the narration & its translation
 * بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
 * In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful
 * قال عليه الصلاة والسلام: ان الله يستحي ان يعذب شيبة شابت في الاسلام
 * He, who mercy & prayers are upon him, said:
 * God shies from torturing a man whose hair became grey while [practicing] Islam.
 * ان هذا الرجل ذو الشيبة وهو يناهز من العمر 72 عاما
 * This man with grey hair, who is over 72 years old,
 * لقد اعتقل متلبسا وهو يقرأ القرآن
 * was arrested in the act of reading Quran
 * في طريقه الى درعا لفك الحصار عن أهله هناك
 * while he was on his way to Daraa, to break the siege [imposed] on his people there.
 * وتمت مجزرة صيدا بتاريخ 29/4/2011
 * And the massacre of Saida happened on 4/29/2011
 * وفارق الحياة تحت التعذيب
 * and he lost his life due to torture
 * على أيدي هذا النظام الظالم وأهله
 * [inflicted] by the hands of this unjust regime & its people.
 * ألا يستحون من هذه الشيبة؟ ألا يتفكرون
 * Don't they feel shy from his grey hair? Don't they think?
 * والى متى هذا القهر؟
 * And till when will this oppression [last]?
 * هذه الاصلاحات التي وعد بها بشار الأسد
 * These are the reforms promised by Bashar Al-Assad!
 * قتل الآباء والأبناء. قتل الأطفال والنساء
 * He [Assad] killed the fathers & sons. He killed the children & the women.
 * ولكن صدق الله حين قال في محكم كتابه:
 * But Allah told the truth when he said in his book:
 * وما الله بغافل عما يعمل الظالمون
 * Allah is never ignorant of what the unjust people do.
 * ولكن ما عهدناه عن هذا الرجل من التزام في بيوت الله
 * But of what we were accustomed to from this man: of being present in the houses of Allah [mosques]
 * من صلاة وقراءة قرآن
 * and praying and reciting Quran
 * أنه لايسجد ولا يركع الا لله
 * [therefore] He doesn't kneel but to Allah
 * وقد طلب منه أن يسجد الى صورة بشار الأسد
 * and it was asked of him to kneel to the photograph of Bashar Al-Assad
 * ولكنه أبى وقتل من أجل ذلك
 * but he refused and was killed for that.
 * والحمد لله رب العالمين
 * thanks to Allah the lord of all
 * سورية، درعا، بلدة المسيفرة
 * Syria, Daraa, the village of Musaifereh
 * بتاريخ 23/5/2011
 * on the date of 5/23/2011
 * حتى ما يقال نحن في ليبيا أو اليمن
 * so that they won't say we are in Libya or Yemen.
 * هذا الرجل وهذا التعذيب الذي عذب به
 * This man and the torture that he was tortured with
 * تحت الكهرباء وتحت العصي وتحت الهراوات الكهربائية
 * under electricity, by sticks, with electric batons
 * وهذا الحروق بالسجاير والكهرباء والضرب على الرأس والأقدام
 * these burns by cigarettes and electricity and the beatings on the head and feet
 * حتى قتل
 * until he was killed
 * ونسأل الله له الشهادة والحمدلله رب العالمين
 * We ask [Allah] to grant him martyrdom and thanks to Allah the lord of all.


 * The narration is an agitation message delivered in a religious sermon style. The narrator mimics the style & tone of mosque preachers in Friday prayers.
 * There is no mention of how they obtained his ID. Just an emphasis on showing his birthrate: 9 Feb 1939.
 * From 0:17 till 00:58 a photocopy of a hand written paper claimed to be the report of the forensic department in the hospital of Daraa is presented. Most of the paper is not clear, but the photographer is interested in only showing the photocopied stamp of the Forensic Department in Daraa Hospital which is in the lower left corner of the paper along with an indiscernible signature of a doctor & the date 23 May 2011. Then he focuses on the lower right corner that bears the words: "photo copy of the original" under the red stamp of the hospital. It is noticeable that there should be the signature of the person authenticating the photocopy of the document along with the stamp, but here it is lacking.
 * The photographer then shows us the last line of the paper, which [surprisingly] reads:
 * سبب الوفاة توقف القلب (الناتج): التالي لشدة نفسية ناجمة عن العنف والتعذيب
 * Heart arrest due to psychological distress caused by violence and "torture". [A phrase opposition members always claim that regime hospitals never issue to them]
 * The head tape is surprisingly upside down, in the direction of the camera view not the natural direction of the corpse. on the upper line an س like shape that I would say is a badly written 23 and under it there is /5/2011.
 * The chest tape shows the name of the deceased: حمود أحمد عبدالر Hmoud Ahmad Abdulra[hman], which is slightly different from the name on ID: محمود احمد العبدالرحمن [Ma]hmoud Ahmad [Al-]Abdulrhman.
 * --TogetherSy (talk) 20:08, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh cool, thanks! Will review. Heart failure ... could actually be. Same story they say kept being repeated for the Caesar photos "detainees" except with violence noted... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering this fascinating story - adding to victim profile and upcoming Hamza report. "it was asked of him to kneel to the photograph of Bashar Al-Assad, but he refused and was killed for that." Huh. They learned about this. Same thing for both of the youngest victims, Hamza and Thamer - maybe they weren't reading the Quran in the van, but they were both asked to kneel to Assad or praise him, "witnesses" said, and were then killed for refusing. Pretty stupid story they've repeated three times now. Tape might say 5/2011 and then 23, so body return date. Very sloppy, but I can see it, and neither of us can see much else ... Great notes as well! --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:34, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Addition to article will be slow - report first. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Hamza's Grave Marker
One last request, lodged right here ... last-minute double-check before finishing report ... Hamza's grave marker as shown by Zaman Al-Wasl - I can read the dates - May 6, 1998, and that looks kind of like born ( ولد ), and the last is May 25, 2011. The word above should not say died, but maybe buried, or other. I can make out his name in the middle. The rest may not matter. There's a video of the same damaged by a supposed shelling attack. The narration might have something worth noting. ?? --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:18, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The translation of this image:
 * [[File:TombstoneHamza.jpeg]]
 * Al-Fatiha الفاتحة
 * In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
 * Peace be upon you, for your patience. سلام عليكم بما صبرتم
 * How excellent is the reward of [your ultimate] abode فنعم عقبى الدار
 * [Quran 13:24]
 * The tomb of the infant martyr مرقد الطفل الشهيد
 * Hamza Ali Al-Khatib حمزة علي الخطيب
 * Born 6/5/1998 تولد 5/6/1998
 * Martyred on استشهد في
 * 25/5/2011


 * I will transliterate & translate the video later today.
 * --TogetherSy (talk) 10:54, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh, thanks. Picture uploaded too, right move. Just too late to get in the report, at least as I noticed it ... but no big loss. It does say martyred on? Those numbskulls. His dead body with green patches was in his family's hands the day before at least. I should have included that then, but oh well... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * This is the transliteration and translation of the video mentioned above:


 * بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
 * In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful
 * درعا الجيزة 21/2/2013
 * Deraa - Al-Jizah - 21/2/2013
 * أثار القصف المدفعي
 * The results of the artilary bombardment
 * على المقبرة التي يتوجد فيها
 * on the cemetary that has
 * قبر الشهيد حمزة الخطيب
 * the tomb of the martyr Hamza Al-Khatib
 * القذيفة دمرت القبر
 * The shell destroyed the grave
 * هذا الشهيد الطفل الذي لم يسلم من بطش النظام
 * This infant martyr who did not escape the brutality of the regime
 * وهو على قيد الحياة
 * while he was alive
 * والآن وهو في قبره أيضا لم يسلم من بطش النظام
 * now while he is in his tomb also did not escape the brutality of the regime
 * هذا النظام الذي انتهك جميع الحقوق الانسانية
 * This regime that violated all human rights
 * ولم يحترم أي شيء
 * and did not respect anything
 * حتى القبور والمقابر قام بقصفها
 * even the graves & the cemeteries
 * حتى الشهداء والأموات في قبورهم لم يسلموا من هذا النظام
 * even the martyrs and the dead did not escape from this regime
 * هذه هي المقبرة وأثار القصف على هذه المقبرة
 * this is the cemetary and results of the bombardment on it
 * التي استخدمها النظام لكي يخيف الناس ويقول لهم
 * the shelling was used by the regime to terrorize the people and tell them
 * حتى أمواتكم لم يسلموا مني
 * even your dead won't escape from me
 * حسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل
 * Allah suffices us and he is [our] best agent


 * --TogetherSy (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Brilliant move - hit the graveyard with a mortar shell, just to help Hamza make the news one more time... actually it would make sense - for the rebels - on a slow day when they were bored. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The grave seems to be hit with a hammer not an artillery shell. The plants & other graves in the background are not affected, only Hamza's tombstone and a nearby wall seems to have suffered some damage, self inflicted in my opinion probably by the same guy who was filming. No crater, no shrapnels, a too clean scene to have suffered bombardment.
 * --TogetherSy (talk) 21:19, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * That's an interesting notion. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised. But I don't feel like looking at it yet, so no opinion. I do suspect it was not, as they say, a deliberate government attack on Hamza's grave to deny him peace in death. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:29, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

AF Intel Defector
A late find, with no rush, but sure to have interesting parts - video قصة إستشهاد حمزة الخطيب رمز الثورة - آفاق أحمد Al-Jazeera interview, April 29, 2012 (Arabic) Description, auto-translated: "The story of the martyrdom of Hamza al-Khatib code revolution with dissident Ahmed, Director of prospects, former President of the Center for special operations division at the air intelligence." TS, if you have a chance, some key quotes might help (but probably not the whole thing). Dates, specifics, things we can compare. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:08, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Al-Zoubi
Hey Adam, interesting work. Some random observations:

In the SANA "official story" piece, the alleged buddy of the kid says that they used to "perform Friday prayers at the Grand Mosque in al-Jizah led by sheikh Haroon al-Zoubi and Talal Shkeir who were calling for Jihad.” Maybe head of the clan and reason why so many al-Zoubis were there?

The SANA report is among the Stratfor mails leaked by WikiLeaks, sent to HQ on June 1, 2011: SYRIA - Syrian news agency raps media for fake reports on death of 13-year old

In August 2012, a deputy health minister of Syria named Ma'moun al-Zoubi was assassinated in Deraa. The current Information Minister of Syria is named Omran al-Zoubi.

--CE (talk) 12:47, 4 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, it's been a bit sloppy but getting there. There are so many Zoubi, they're not probably all related. Like the guy was named Khatib, but not related to Hamza. But then, with so many Zoubis, how could some not be? (middle names help tie some of these together.) The Imam might relate ... could get many family involved, but would they be about half, or is there another reason they're about half of the dead? The minister I don't know ... there's also an al-Zoubi high on the rebel side, "Asaad al-Zoubi, a former army colonel who now leads the Free Syrian Army in southern Syria" and is head #2 of the High Negotiating Committee (where #1 is Mohammed Alloush). --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:55, 4 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The Zuaby clan (Arabic): الزعبي is a large & powerful clan that stretches between the border of Jordan & Syria. They are "THE" people in southern Deraa & the Jordanian city of Ramtha. A very active & highly political clan in both countries. On the Syrian side it is worthy to note that the longest serving prime minister in the Baath governments was Mahmoud Zuaby. Who resigned in 2000 & later committed suicide due to corruption accusations and favoring his clan members. IMHO, I do view the targeting of that clan as tactic used to stem anger in them and cause them to switch their loyalty by creating blood vengeance between them & the state. This clan highly relied on the political statuesque & received many favors from the state while its son was the prime minister and had had a free hand on the merchandising movement across the Jordanian border and many other privileges. Aside from their large numbers in that area, their political affiliation & ties to the regime; ties that the opposition desperately needed to severe, should be taken into consideration while discussing the high number of their victims in the early events of Daraa.
 * --TogetherSy (talk) 01:55, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. --CE (talk) 12:52, 22 May 2016 (UTC)