Talk:Douma Hostage Massacre

Tracey Shelton article
Tracey Shelton from Global Post, who made news by ctching Muammar Gaddafi's sodomization on video, wrote an article about alleged video fakery in Syria, by both sides. The Douma hostage massacre is covered last, as "One of the most disturbing fake video claims." She said there
 * The results are not conclusive. Other video of the same prisoners and the same bodies were uploaded around the same time between Aug. 14 and 18, but they have since been removed from YouTube, making clear identification almost impossible.

Do we have copies of the missing videos? I have a few.
 * Syria's vicious propaganda wars

Video sources
There are three original FSA videos: 1. the captive, 2. the bodies in the field 3. the bodies in black body bags at a morgue. All three show the same Coca Cola shirt. I have not seen the last one, but it was shown on Al Jazeera, and again with comments on Syrian television. The videos I have found are at the start of my FSA prisoners playlist (part 2) on YouTube.

The original videos

Prisoners:
 * أسرعميد وعناصر من قوى الأمن الداخلي لواء درع العاصمة
 * (Captured brigade and elements of the Internal Security Forces Armor Brigade, for the Capital)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3c9UmypyYI
 * Published on Aug 20, 2012 by UNITEDNEWS79
 * Copy:
 * لواء درع العاصمة يأسرعميد وعناصر من قوى الأمن الداخلي
 * (Armor Brigade capital Aosrbrigad and elements of the Internal Security Forces)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoIwWB-1rpI&feature=plcp
 * Published on Aug 21, 2012 by kuwaitywithsyrianrev
 * Both deleted. This may be a copy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCFj6ltgV4w Petri Krohn (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Bodies:
 * إكتشاف مجزرة بحق أشخاص ذبحوا بالسكاكين دوما 17 8 2012 For adults only plzZZ 18++
 * (Discovery massacre against the people slaughtered with knives always 17 8 2012)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oLZyN_hPQA&feature=plcp
 * Published on Aug 17, 2012 by ForYou2011Mart

Also, I just found a fourth video made by the same FSA group, dated August 14th, with some of the same prisoners.
 * لواء درع العاصمة بحرستا مقتل وأسر العديد من الجيش الأسدي 14 8 2012
 * (Armor Brigade capital Bhrsta (typo - Harasta) killed and captured many of the army Asadi 14 8 2012)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZagihDxsio
 * Published on Aug 14, 2012 by hrasta1000

Different versions of the bodies video from the same hrasta1000 channel. All are "Published on Aug 17, 2012 by hrasta1000". All share the same title.

-- Petri Krohn 22:47, 9 September 2012 (EST) (updated 23:03, 9 September 2012 (EST))
 * الشيفونية - ذبح المعتقلين من قبل جنود الأسد 17-8-2012
 * (Chiffonier* slaughter of detainees by Assad soldiers 17 8 2012)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BMiVajTwG4 – HQ with FSA brigade emblem
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvA7wcvIcE – poorer quality, "original" without emblem
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5tK9hp-M3Y – poorer quality, "original" without emblem
 * "Chiffonier" (الشيفونية) (Shifonia) is a location within Douma (here on Wikimapia) with a coordinating committee (here on Facebook) that probably coordinated this cover story. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Ooh, that sudden find changes things. Will have a look. But I imagined the one would have been released to someone prior to the hostages being killed... --Caustic Logic 22:53, 9 September 2012 (EST)
 * Will look more at the Aug. 14 video, but there are some possible matches. #6 from the left especially. #3 from left looks a bit like the Coca-Cola shirt guy, but for the shirt. And #7 - despite the distinctive bright blue of his shirt and position second from right, that man doesn't seem to be the same as the little guy seen before/later. --Caustic Logic 12:07, 10 September 2012 (EST)


 * http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d1a_1345885384
 * http://www.prochan.com/view?p=0c2_1345882862

Urs' investigation
Good on starting this, had it in mind, too. Can't contribute atm other than giving a short summary of the investigation which led to this. The German investigator ("Urs") who found this has written three articles about it. Comments on this blog are not always directly related to the original articles, but sometimes contain additional research which then gets incorporated into the main article. So it happened with the original article started on August 18, with the murdered-in-the-field video, later finding the cooling house vid - some uploaded versions mention a "Watani Hospital" where the corpses were allegedly dumped. She then already knows that they killed them themselves, because she had followed the channel hrasta1000 for some time and says it's from a death squad/murder gang and they only upload their own atrocities. hrasta = Harasta, city next to Douma where the gang seems to have their HQ. On August 21, she adds the finding of the vid with the victims alive (she embeds this version, important to note that like the one Petri links above NOT uploaded by hrasta1000, so could well be that those two uploaders were not aware of the hostages fate, and weren't supposed to upload this as far as the killers are concerned). In a later update she mentions to have given the information "to Syria" where it was "received in several forms", linking to this video which is a quite handy two min short version of the Addounia report, doing the matching job. The second article from August 21 reports the finding of the matching video with the victims alive, information thanks to updates also found in the first article. Addounia TV report gets added in a comment on August 28. (There's also a vid from Daraya in the comments, i see - from the destroyed tank on August 23, different one than on documents.sy). Third article is from September 6 and makes they case that the gang is still murdering and/or using their old vids for "new massacres" - didn't watch the vids there, seem to be easily above my vomit threshold, judged from the stills alone... --CE 18:30, 10 September 2012 (EST)


 * Perfect, you caught my hints and had time to follow up. Will work this in. It's been slow starting - the weekend wasn't so amazing for free time after all. --Caustic Logic 22:02, 10 September 2012 (EST)

From the German article, the black body bags video. -- Petri Krohn 22:15, 10 September 2012 (EST)
 * 18+ Syria - Assad Regime Kills 16 Douma Youths With Knives - Dump Bodies by Watani Hospital 8-17-12
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J4sBwNM8w
 * Published on Aug 17, 2012 by SyrianExile1

Watani Hospital = National Hospital. Wikimapia does not show one for Douma, but there's one here in Harasta.

Demands made?
You say "with demands that, apparently, weren't met in time." I do not understand the Arabic, but I do not think any real demands we made, (apart, maybe, for the overthrow of "Assad".) Also, I do not think this has anything to with kidnapping for money, as reported in this story today.

As my playlist shows, it is a regular practice for FSA / al Qaeda in Syria to videotape their captives. The motives are terror-related. It has nothing to do with "demands". -- Petri Krohn 23:15, 9 September 2012 (EST)


 * Ah, that would make "hostages" less accurate. I don't suppose we can say for sure until we get a translation. --Caustic Logic 07:31, 10 September 2012 (EST)
 * Fixed it sort of - demands are mentioned as a possibility, captives replaces hostages.

Other prisoner executions?
WHY THE HELL AM I DOING THIS?

Should not there be some other organization in this world looking into this crap? Like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch? Or the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights? Shouldn't someone be collecting and cataloging all these FSA prisoner videos?


 * Exactly my feelings, it's ridiculous. And there is no guarantee that they don't go down the memory hole when the scum decides to delete their channels - as has happened recently and more than once, as reported by the blogger mentioned above. She's got a list somewhere of all the "rebel" channels she was able to identify, structured by region they operate in ... will look that up on occasion, her blog could use a better structure. --CE 05:38, 11 September 2012 (EST)


 * You've had a while to wonder about that. I have my guesses. I only wish more people with more time and skills and powers were on the job. A lot of Syrians are, and doing a great job. But neither they, nor us, seem to get saturation in the English press. Why? I don't know exactly or feel like explaining my guesses, but I'm sure it's no accident. And so here we are... --Caustic Logic 08:53, 11 September 2012 (EST)

My playlists now contain 230 videos of FSA displaying their prisoners or captives. YouTube only allows 200 videos in one playlist, so I have had to split it in two parts. Finding videos is trivial, for every video of captured "shabiha" YouTube proposes five more. In a few minutes I have 8 browser windows open with tens of new links to follow.

Anyway, here is something relevant. SyrianTruth YouTube has created this composite video that identifies some captives. No proof that they were killed though. -- Petri Krohn 23:56, 10 September 2012 (EST)
 * Free Army kidnapped dozens of children and men in Sgayn
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0kXeLX5U7A
 * Published on Jul 3, 2012 by Syriatruth001


 * Excellent work on this list. I didn't realize you had that many. On this video, it seems almost exclusively the teenagers they've identified. I wonder is this identification, or just showing who's too young to be captured as a Shabiha. I notice none of them, of any age, are the bald and bearded, tattooed, muscle-bound meat heads the Daily Mail got exclusive photos of (one of). The only one looking close is #4 in line, and he gets his own guard pushing him. (Also I can't find Sgayn on the map -avideo from there mentions Idilb, so it might be close to that. --Caustic Logic 08:53, 11 September 2012 (EST)

Aleppo prisoner massacres

 * Started article here: Aleppo prisoner massacres

Two Three new videos show prisoner massacres in Aleppo by FSA:
 * +18 SYRIE Massacre de civils innocent par les terroristes de "l'armée libre" ASL à Alep
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIPBKEDMODA
 * Published on Sep 9, 2012 by VeriteSurLaSyrie


 * جثث شبيحة بشار الأسد بعد القصاص +18
 * (Bodies Hbihh Bashar al-Assad after retribution +18)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEXmXYJ1WFA
 * Published on Sep 9, 2012 by T868h


 * 21 Captured Syrian Soldiers Massacred by Wahhabist "Rebels" in Aleppo
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FCXuOyc4zQ
 * Published on Sep 10, 2012 by SyrianArabArmy4ever

The first video shows about 20 executed civilians in a courtyard. It also shows a peek view (at 0:20) of possibly another pile of bodies on the street outside. One body is shown on a few frames. The two other videos however confirm my interpretation, by showing a similar pile in a similar location in relation with the sidewalk. It is however not the same street or scene. Together the videos show about 2o + 20 + 20? = ~60 massacre victims.

The second video comes via urs1798: -- Petri Krohn 11:41, 11 September 2012 (EST)
 * http://urs1798.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/der-unterschied-zwischen-festgenommenen-und-geiseln-in-syrien-syria/


 * This incident is making headlines at the likes of RT and even Huffington Post. --CE 19:56, 11 September 2012 (EST)

Family interviewed
Addounia TV interviews the family of one of those killed: -- Petri Krohn 14:16, 27 September 2012 (EST)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvKDoa0WpN8
 * Published on Sep 3, 2012 by addounia

VDC, Death Toll Revision
I finally checked the VDC database for what they say on this. They have this list os 12 unidentified victims, no pictures in an effort at identification, no updates two years on... Notes: "12 martyrs were slaughtered by knives and their bodies thrown in front of the National Hospital. there was a mix up in the exact number of the martyrs at first, but then it was assured that it is 12 martyrs. " Linked videos: 1 and 2. They say 12 is all there was, and the first reports of 16 were in error. However, there were a total of 30 men listed as from Douma, 20 of them unidentified, dead from detention-execution or field execution throughout the months (bad days: Aug. 15, 17, 30) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 18 November 2014 (UTC)