Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Victims Analysis

Death Toll Reports, by City
Various break-downs organized by death toll (presuming each with the same total will have the same sub-totals). Different death tolls are not necessarily in conflict; some were tallied earlier than others, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 280+: Reported by Jsreen revolution. Notes: 4 towns mentioned: Ain Tarma - Zamalka - Hazeh ( حزة ) - Jobar, with five areas listed. The 5th is likely Irbin, deduced from the breakdown (23 kids, 17 women, 11 men), partly matching the next entry. The others, unclear, had early tolls of: 61, 67, 50+, 50+
 * 646: Reported by sos.syr.un, Aug.22: Over 2/3 of their victims unidentified ("did not reach their names") 201 are named, cities mixed in, hard to tally. The anonymous arrivals at each area's "medical points" are listed below.
 * 1,228: Reported by Douma Coordinating Committee, Aug. 21: "The number of martyrs by medical points in East Gouta - Census Bureau legal unified."
 * 1,300 (clearly rounded, almost same as above) - مجزرة الكيماوي Chemical Massacre Syria‎ Infographic.

I'm still not all clear on the districts in question. Aside from Mouadamiya/Daraya in the far southwest of the city, all the allegedly effected areas are shown in the map below, borders from Wikimapia. Hazeh is interesting. Big death tolls all around it: as many as 700+ reported in Zamalka and Hamouriya just north (red), significant numbers to the south in Kafr Batna (100/150), east and west in Ain Tarma (75) and Saqba with the consistent 69. Hazeh does not seem to pop up anywhere. Are there just no medical points there? I'll keep an eye out to see if victims from such a place are listed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: the one alleged chemical rocket impact site, #197, is in what's labeled Hazeh here (north edge, just south of the last a in Zamalka). And prevailing wind in Damascus that day, as Petri looked up, were from the west, blowing across the length of Hazeh. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * New graphic reflects one early mention, at least 50 dead there, apparently absorbed into another area's total later? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actual wind at 2am (the most likely time) was blowing towards WSW. Hazeh should have had the large majority of casualties. There should have been very few North of the main impact line in South Zamalka. There would have been zero in Jobar, Harasta, and Douma. The wind was completely the wrong direction. --Charles Wood (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)



Doubts on number of Sarin victims
U.N. Probe Chief Doubtful on Syria Sarin Exposure Claims - Gareth Porter

''WASHINGTON, May 6 2014 (IPS) - The head of the U.N. team that investigated the Aug. 21, 2013 Sarin attack in the Damascus suburbs, Ake Sellstrom, is doubtful about the number of victims of the attack reported immediately after the event.

Sellstrom has suggested that many people who claimed to have been seriously affected by Sarin merely imagined that they had suffered significant exposure to the chemical. Despite the paucity of the most fundamental indicator of exposure to Sarin, 31 of the 36 were found to have a trace of Sarin in their blood samples.

Underlying Sellstrom’s doubts are data on symptoms from a sample of people who said they were severely affected by the Sarin attack. The data, published in the September report, appear to belie the claims of Sarin intoxication by those in the sample, according to experts who have analysed them.

...'' --Charles Wood (talk) 23:12, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Hardly anyone said/though they were affected by Sarin, so "imagining it" seems silly. Outsiders imagine it for them, activists provided supporting details, and some was found. Another point Sellstrom raises, which is more valid, is about the number of people the hospitals could treat. This could suggest less Sarin patients than claimed, and/or that the treatment simply didn't happen. Basement execution victims won't be taken to a hospital and processed - as patients anyway. From the same article: --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Selstrom also expressed doubt about the numbers of victims said to have been treated at local hospitals. The U.N. investigators visited two of the three hospitals in the Damascus suburbs that had treated victims of the attack and had provided figures for the numbers of victims they had treated.


 * “[T]he figures they provided of people who passed through them was just not possible,” said Sellstrom. “It is impossible that they could have turned over the amount of people they claim they did.”''


 * I theory they could handle a larger number of people if they had effective triage. However, triage is is completely missing from the video record. Triage, treatment an morgue all seem to happen on the same "hospital" floor. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

A Simplified Record?
Charles started a section I was just thinking of, because of the same comments by Ake Sellstrom on the death toll (see below). Sasa Wawa, for example, says Sarin rockets killed people in the open, about as reported - just by the rebels. See: The Conclusion. But that never made much sense when 1400+ dead are alleged, so a much lower number - "less than 500" - is somewhat arbitrarily decided on. These died only in Zamalka, with victims taken to many areas, and hence the reports of people dying in different areas, simple confusion later sorted out.

But when I was looking into it, it seemed there were whole sets of people in numerous areas, showing different symptoms and patterns, photos and entries with no photos, running way into hundreds. I've suspected for a while the minimum number of dead is probably higher than Sasa's highest. I was seeing this largely in the VDC martyr's database, which I've been perusing again, for now, in a side-spot here. Something of it can go here, or maybe a front page finally. They claim they've got 925 martyrs killed Aug. 21, by chemical and toxic gasses. They do say 641 were from/in Zamalka, but there are victims clearly stated as killed all over in smaller numbers, adding up to a third of a pretty big number.

But more than the number, I want to consider the variety, locations (claimed, deduced, whatever), other patterns to help us understand if something like the Sasa-Gareth Porter version is a better explanation, or widespread gas chamber action of the kind documented in Kafr Batna. Meaning: Murder in the SunMorgue: A Critique of the Sarin Myth and a Cyber-Investigation of the Ghouta Massacre Mystery - by Denis O'Brien PhD (and ACLOS member Pierpont) "...perhaps the single most important report to yet emerge about the events of August 21." - Adam Larson (ACLOS member Caustic Logic) from the article ... (forthcoming) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Sneaking in a Zamalka Majority?
VDC records: 641 from Zamalka (AM 347 AF 222 CF 37 CM 35) 19 more victims listed with Martyrdom Location Zamalka. That's a big chunk, over 2/3, of the full list of 925 dead. That comes in 10 pages of 100 each (except the last page) The first page of entries starts with the earliest one Ali Deeb Rajab victim #91977 and up from there. These first are from Moadamiyeh, with a few Zamalka and other entries appearing. All the Moadamiyehs are listed quick, but the next couple of pages are like that - Joar, Zamalka, Ain Tarma, a few others. What's interesting is when the Zamalka entries started coming in for real (or are they unreal?)

Page 6: lots of Zamalka adds, starting at #92973 (must be about August 25 as #92993 was added then). The last mixed entries appear at the top of page 7, otherwise all Zamalka (September adds - #94546 is included, and 94566 is from Sept. 8) From there through pages 8, 9, and 10, all Zs - not a single victims from the other areas is added after that point. Last entry is #101907, and page 8 starts with 101610. All of these fall among some non-CW (contemporary) entries I found - 101500 Nov. 18 - 101653 Nov. 19 and 101922 is Nov. 20) - some hundreds of Ghouta victims, all of them saying Zamalka, added at this time. And no others since November. --Caustic Logic (talk)


 * Brief perusal of the reports shows interesting results. There are a tiny number of combatants (Non-Civilian) - 26, in comparison to civilian figures of 901, both up to 31 December. There are many possible explanations for this including that the suburbs weren't depopulated as supposed. Alterntively the Syrian National Sport of Lying has kicked in and the classification nudged to fit an innocent victim narrative.


 * There are potentially multiple duplicates, especially in the unknown name categories.


 * The natural web reporting order is date of decease subdivided by incrementing entry numbers. Entries per location are not contiguous (e.g. Zamalka) but do appear to sort in ascending entry order for each location name (but not always monotonic). This indicates multiple authors connected to a central database entering data from different locations at roughly the same time. Imagine 5-10 authors connected to a web-server entering their local casualties through the day. Individual authors will often get non-contiguous entry numbers but across all authors the entries will be monotonic increasing and contiguous (allowing for deletions of course). There's no obvious sign that an edited entry gets a new index number. It's possible but I can't detect it.


 * It would be very nice to get access to the underlying database and do some decent data mining. Sadly my l33t days are over but if someone could snare a copy... Even if by asking nicely (!) --Charles Wood (talk) 05:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Interesting stuff, huh? I don't know about a statistical analysis - maybe from input data (and no clue how to get this - I've just saved lots of it in text), but from what we see up front, it could e multiple users, one shifting gears, or whatever.


 * Usually with these records, I presume each entry equates to a real person (I've seen some obvious duplication, but it seems in error). But this is not a normal case, and the scale is so huge, inflation is likely enough. The last few hundred are most suspect, but it might be even those are real people, just verified late with people that don't always share with them (they seem to be in with the FSA in general but less cued in to the Al-Qaeda groups). It could be these hundreds were all in/from Zamalka, or likely just entered that way to reflect the simplified story where rockets only landed there. It's in September, as people settled on that, that masses of entries started shifting it to where we are now ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Videos
My YouTube playlist: Brown Moses has a list with 120 videos. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5WYCTqm6QUFEgCRhTevaLEr2inzR7jZM
 * http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPC0Udeof3T4NORTjYmPoNCHn2vCByvYG

The earliest original videos seem to be coming from the Kvrbtna Coordinating Committee (تنسيقية كفربطنا): I have no idea where "Kvrbtna" is, but searching for the word in Arabic only brings up massacre pictures and videos. (The logo on the videos says it is Kafar Batna City.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/user/syriafredoom/videos
 * Kafar Batna is here on the southern outskirts of Irbin (there's a "Al Fateh Hospital" central in the markation). The two places given by the reddit collection are at least two kilometers north-west of that in Jobar. The mentioned Ain Terma and Zamalka are in between.--CE (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Excellent start here, Petri, thanks. No time left today. 120 videos? Will not be watching most of those. More soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The Visual Evidence of a Chemical Attack in Syria Is Overwhelming and Disturbing – Dashiell Bennett / The Atlantic Wire, August 21, 2013
 * The government has officially denied using any such weapons, but the United Nations inspection team that arrived in the country on Sunday (to investigate previous claims of chemical weapon attacks) has been denied access to the site. As a result, the images below are the only evidence we have of the devastation — and there is a lot of evidence.

In situ videos
After abandoning my earlier working hypothesis of an chemical weapons rocket attack I have started collecting in situ evidence here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * الريف الدمشقي عربين حالة هلع بين المدينين وإستخراج شهيدة طفلة من تحت الأنقاض 14 8 2013 (Damascus countryside Irbeen panic among debtors and extraction martyr girl from under the rubble 14 8 2013) – Ibreen Media Office, Aug 14, 2013
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCy6Fp0uAwo (field hospital)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vSLFE4W0nw (mass grave, closeup)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCqGGxkNZBU (dead chicken)
 * تغطية للمجزرة الكيماوية الكبرى في الغوطة الشرقية مع ناشطين مجلس قيادة الثورة في ريف دمشق (Coverage of the massacre of the major chemical in East Gouta with activists of the Revolutionary Command Council in Damascus) – Aug 21, 2013
 * Long video, 21 min, morgue scenes, interviews, street scene at 20 min.
 * الغوطة الشرقية 21-8-2013 أب وأم في وداع أطفالهم (East Gouta 08/21/2013 father and mother in their children's farewell)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4cWrx4zjvA (doctor)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNvmICoUmk (bodies outside Kafar Batna hospital)
 * الغوطة الشرقية 22-8-2013 أطفال مجهولي الهوية تم العثور عليهم من ضحايا الكيماوي (East Gouta 22/08/2013 unidentified children were found victims of chemical) – Ibreen CC, August 23, 2013
 * Three badly decomposed bodies are dumped in grave. We are not shown where they were found. Evidently not in their beds, as they are fully dressed. Update Same 3 children as described above in the house with the planted bodies. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * هاااااام للإعلام # الغوطة الشرقية # شاهد عيان يروي لنا ما جرى لحظة القصف بالمواد الكيماوية السامة 2 (Haaaaaam Media # East Gouta # eyewitness tells us what happened to the moment of the bombing of toxic chemicals 2) – Ibreen Media Office, August 21,2013
 * عربين 21 8 2013 قصف جنوني وهستيري عنيف بالمدفعية الثقيلة وراجمات الصواريخ على المدينة (Orbin 21 8 2013 bombing of a violent crazy and hysterical with heavy artillery and rocket launchers on the city) – Ibreen Media Office, August 20,2013
 * بعض الحيوانات النافقة نتيجة استخدام السلاح الكيماوي في زملكا - الغوطة الشرقية (Some dead animals as a result of the use of chemical weapons in Zamalka - East Gouta) – KafarSousah Revolt, Aug 27, 2013
 * dead sheep, shell remains
 * جولة مع قوى الأمن العام للبحث عن مصابين بالسلاح الكيماوي في زملكا - الغوطة الشرقية (Tour with public security forces to search for people with chemical weapons in Zamalka - East Gouta) – KafarSousah Revolt, Aug 27, 2013
 * one decomposed body
 * بعض الحيوانات النافقة نتيجة استخدام السلاح الكيماوي في زملكا - الغوطة الشرقية (Some dead animals as a result of the use of chemical weapons in Zamalka - East Gouta) – KafarSousah Revolt, Aug 27, 2013
 * برومو للمجزرة الكيماوية الكبرى في الغوطة الشرقية HD (Promo for major chemical massacre in East Gouta HD) – c.m.o algota, Aug 27, 2013
 * مؤثر جدا أب يجد بناته بين ضحايا مجزرة الكيماوي في الغوطة الشرقية (Father finds his daughters among the victims of the massacre in East Gota chemical) – SyrRev15Mar2011, Aug 24, 2013 (repost)
 * Morgue scene, real looking emotions.
 * فوق أشلاء وجثث الأطفال رسالة مؤلمة من أحد المجاهدين للأمة الإسلامية والقادة العرب (Above the remains of the bodies of children a painful message from one of the Mujahideen of the Islamic nation and the Arab leaders) – hadi Hdhod, Aug 20, 2013
 * Dead children outside, ISIS member? agitating.

Etc. ...

Symptoms Analysis 1: Burned from Behind
Some gasses leave little physical sign, and in fact most victims in most places appear almost like they could have just suffocated. Others show signs like convulsions and white foam from the mouth, signs which seem to have been faked in the past and easily could be here. But there are some victims who show far more pronounced signs of chemical weapon use. These others have puffed and blistered lips, reddened, scalded-looking skin, sporadic small wounds, with noses and mouth either pouring or plugged with yellow mucous. There is no room for doubt these were hit with someting different and more caustic, or at least much more concentrated, than used elsewhere in the Ghouta attacks. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

The first image below is of one such victim, possibly from Irbin/Erbin/Irbeen, possibly an adult female but possibly not. This opposition photo gallery, pages 8 and 9 at least, lacks that image but features numerous other photos of this type of victim gathered in one distinctive morgue. Also note in some views a bloody chunk of (human?) tissue with a leg bone sticking out. The next images in the gallery below are from this space. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The space is similar to the one shown near-empty in this earlier video from Kafr Batna coordinating committe. That might be it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This appears to be the same room in Kafr Batna, an area explored and shown in a still (with the same victims seen) here. From that videos and a shorter one, both filmed in the pre-dawn dark, I don't think I could locate this spot on the map without more info. But there is an effort to find it here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have started here: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:21, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Kafr Batna or wherever it is, this is a/the spot where serious gassing occurred, or where the victims of it wound up. Reliable and widespread symptoms: major foaming from mouth and nose, had been real, yellow mucous (not shaving cream), dried brown and crusty. Puffed, irritated lips (most notable above, less so in this morgue), seriously reddened skin in parts, like an intense rash, with skin apparently ruptured and sunken there. These parts are, consistently, their backsides (not really seen) and up their sides, with the front mostly untouched. This image shows a boy of about 9 showing the symptoms with special clarity. From another source: boy with the same signs and massive nasal flow, apparently in that same room. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

A younger boy has a strange little wound under his chin, also visible on the victims in the embedded image above. The first boy linked to above has a smaller mark to the front of his chin. Others verifiably don't have this mark, but that's enough to wonder what the hell it can mean. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I have started compiling a Table of Videos The three shots on the R above are from what I call Vid #011. It is the 11th vid in the Feinstein Package, beginning at 10:20. The link you provide above is to the individual YT video, which cannot be accessed w/out signing in. Really annoying. Vid #011 shows this morgue -- same camera angle -- after a lot more bodies are added.

In the table I have juxtaposed the jpg above w/ a screen shot of Vid #011. The comparison is interesting. There are syringes lying around in the .jpg above, one w/ blood. Some of the kids' positions have changed, but mostly they are precisely the same. In the jpg above you can see next to the girl in pink a sterile wipes package that one uses to wipe an skin patch where a needle is going to go. Are these people dead? Where is the blood coming from? Why the syringes? Why in the world a sterile wipe? Something is not right here.

Mother Agnes has also compared this scene with a vid published by al Jazeera, but she doesn't give a link and I haven't found it. --Pierpont (talk) 22:55, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * When I said the three shots are "from" Vid #011, I misspoke. They are shots from the same place taken before Vid 011 was taken. How long before?  Well, how long does it take to fill up that space w/ bodies?  Mother Agnes also pointed out that it is odd the way the bodies are scattered and then new bodies added to the empty spots instead of aligning them all in an organized way.  --Pierpont (talk) 23:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Quick response: To see what's happening you can click Recent changes. I have started cataloging all videos at Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Sources/Video. This discussion should maybe go to that talk page. The location we are discussing is the Kafr Batna town hall, see Locations#Kafr Batna hospital. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:17, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In this photo you see a syringe with blood inside. Looks like blood samples were taken from the victims. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Possible Explanations
What could explain this class of genuine and terrible symptom brought on so acutely and indiscriminately on people of all ages? Both symptom and forensic clues should be drawn on - not only what might have been used, but how. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If Livor Mortis
 * I think the reddening of the skin is just post-mortem lividity of whatever side they were lying on when they died. This degree of livor mortis indicates that the victims have been dead at least 6 hours.  Is this consistent with the times the videos were recorded?  ---pmr9 (talk) 23:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Google image search for livor mortis confirms. I think this issue is settled; no sign of chlorine blisters on skin. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, pmr9 and Petri. That does look pretty darn similar and might be the explanation. I haven't noticed that much in my couple years of looking at dead bodies, and it isn't seen universally here. It does seem to be a quick thing, six hours might be fair. I don't have video times or anything handy, but It's full daylight, so at least a few hours after the alleged 3-whatever AM attacks. Being laid face-up, sometimes at an angle, would solve one of my main problems. Not everyone sleeps one way, but some people will arrange corpses all one way. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (Two things here -ruling in lividity, ruling out chlorine (only an example anyway). I looked for chlorine blister images, but all the ones I saw were specified actually as mustard gas.) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Some things that keep me from being sure this is the explanation, or at least the full one: this state seems to correspond, almost like a symptom, with the mucous-oozing victims. Perhaps the chemical made them more susceptible to or worsened the lividity? (damaging blood vessels, as chlorine does). Some of the reddening seems not to be driven by gravity. I get the pressed parts touching the floor or supports will stay white and the sides down to that part with redden, as blood settles, with gravity. But some of this wraps clear up both sides and almost around the front, as on the little girl in orange. I guess that could make sense too, given the curve of the body's tissues (ie, it can't sink straight down through the bone) Still looks like a gas cloud to me, or this. In case the cool-seeming stuff below wasn't just a waste and another false lead, I make these points. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Starter: The burning is pretty cosistently to the victim's backside, not seen, lightening around the sides, with little to no scalding on the front. This is consistent with a person caught in a nasty dense cloud of the stuff while sleeping face down. But not everyone sleeps face-down. Will most people turn their back to some spray of poison gas? Yes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If Not...


 * Why face down. Chlorine gas released in a confined space would form a shallow layer near the floor. A possible explanation for much of what we see could be hostages sleeping with their clothes on in a "cellar". Chlorine gas released from gas bottles. I just wonder, how long would they remain in this horizontal position, if gas was poured on them? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, face-up, heavy gas, gravity. That could explain it too. But the same problem applies - not everyone sleeps the same way, face-up or face-down. But a reaction to a rebel captor with a tank and nozzle and gas mask, for example, might have you turning away and folding up. And pulling your shirt up over your nose, if they hadn't taken your shirt away. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:33, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Chlorine is one candidate that seems to cover every symptom.
 * Miller, 1917: "a profuse exudation of a thin, light yellow, albuminous fluid by the bronchial mucous membrane." (pretty thick here, actually)
 * Spartacus Educational: causes suffocation and "plum-colored" lips, slow but unavoidable death.
 * CDC: "Burning pain, redness, and blisters on the skin if exposed to gas. Skin injuries similar to frostbite can occur if it is exposed to liquid chlorine."


 * It may be that the "experts" have ruled out chlorine without any discussion because they are sticking to the official story of an "attack" with "rockets". Chlorine is only possible as an explanation if it was used in confined spaces. (In fact, I doubt it would be possible to deliver any heavier-than-air gas with the 4 to 12 rockets claimed and do this much damage on such a wide area.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Further thoughts on scanning the images and thinking it over (subjective): This boy victim (linked above too) has a lot of thin mucous coming out mixed, not with blood, but with something gray-brown. Could it be smoke? His exterior shows no sign of it, but his gums are darkened by something, as are his and others' scars. Was his outside just washed off to clean the smoke stains? Doesn't his hair look a little plastered to his head like it was recently washed? Suspiciously clean surface, might worsen the redness. Others here, to me, look the same. The girl in pink, especially, with her abundant hair - it looks a bit wetted and sticking to her face. These others don't have gray mucous, it should be noted, just that boy that I noticed. But theirs is thicker, maybe meaning they were dehydrated. Was one set of prisoners smoked out, while another was denied water?--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The little darkened scars on the faces - likely pre-existing, from whatever in a war and captivity climate, that would catch smoke or whatever residue and remain dark after death. As for the chin marks, only the two clearly seen but enough to wonder. I can see repeated "look at me" chin lfitings like captors will sometimes do with seated prisoners, with thumbnails, rifle muzzles, knifepoints, whatever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

As for the reddening, besides basic posture, I think it suggests the victims were naked, or at least shirtless, when this horrible vapor hit them. Every patch of backside we can see, from shoulder to buttock depending, is uniformly reddened. It seems clothing should provide at least some shield and leave a "burn line" at the neck and waist, but any clothing seemed to have no effect. Clearly, this would be a troubling thing. Why were so many people naked, with chemicals hitting them from behind, if they were sleeping at home? That's gas chamber shit. And someone would have to re-clothe them before laying them out at the morgue as another plea for a NATO air force like Libya got. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Further posture thoughts: anyone else's might be as good as mine, so feel free. If backs of legs aren't burned as much, but heels are, wouldn't that suggest kneeling? I thought I saw that but I'll have to re-look. The balding man -little wrinkles along his burn line down the side. Was he leaning forward maybe, shielding someone? Too thin to wrinkle there if erect and upright, I think. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

More Red Faces and Plugged Noses
Several child victims with photos, listed below, display the same symptoms, with variations. Mostly older children, not babies, can be seen: five boys and a girl from two families from (as listed) Mouadamiyeh have burns about like the above, burt less mucous. One unidentified baby from (as listed) Ain Tarma has purple lips and possible light burns, or a facial rash. Two boys and a girl, unidentified, also from Ain Tarma, suffered a nastier exposure. Full frontal caustic burn, massively plugged noses and ooze from the mouth, in all three cases mixed with blood, something you don't see in the other cases. One boy with no location yet has similar burns to the right sideof his face, small scars, and a trace of mucous - but almost nothing but masses of blood from his nose. Adult search, perhaps later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

From this variation by targeted family and area, are we seeing different brigades testing their own chemical cocktails, perhaps competing for secret prizes? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Cyanosis
I believe there are close to zero visible instances of Cyanosis (blue tint to the skin) in the Ghouta video/photo record. This is odd, considering it's one of the more evident signs of Sarin poisoning, which we see hundreds of supposed victims of. Below are all possible examples of even alleged Cyanoisis, which so far number one. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:51, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Or ... as Charles tipped me off to on the side, it appears cyanosis and blueness are not commonly listed as symptoms for Sarin exposure. Or even not at all, in the easy-to-find lists. This point as made in Murder in the SunMorgue will be challenged. On page C-13 a good explanation why it will appear sometimes, especially in slower exposure cases. No source cited, but enough in O'Brien's area maybe he just knows it. He lists high incidence of cyanosis as an indicator of Sarin lacking in KB, and post-mortem color as "exclusively" blue-tinted. That might be an overstatement: Scanning Halabja photos (Google image search - that was supposed to be/include Sarin, right?), I might see a set of blue lips, and a blue hand, but otherwise gasping and maybe contortion - and nothing with color - is what I would note. I found some sources on general organophosphate poisoning list cyanosis as a symptom, while others don't. Nothing relating to Tokyo I saw, except this good counter in a Google Books return with a huge url: one victom had "...vapor exposure to sarin and was seen in the treatment facility 5–10 min after the first symptom. He was cyanotic and convulsing, with labored breathing, fasciculations and..." So I say cyanosis is a sign, but not one we should expect or make too much of the absence of. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:29, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

;Moadamiya
 * Syrian Network for Human Rights (SNHR) via Impunity Watch, Aug. 28, 2013: The Second Largest Chemical Weapons Attack on Civilians in the Modern Era - one cited video (link) mentions Cyanosis (blue face). Described:
 * Place : Moazameat Al-Sham of Damascus countryside
 * Description : Doctor in the field hospital explain the symptoms shows on victims shelled with poisonous gases, among the symptoms (shortness of breath, pinpoint pupil, blue face, oral foam, suffocation, vomiting, fainting) in addition to injury many of medical crew, and more than 500 injuries and dozens of victims.

Thisblue face symptom is described nowhere else I'm aware of (I've missed a lot though). If it were a known and obvious sign easy enough to fake with some dye, one would think it'd be as common as bright-light miosis or Gilletosis (shaving foam from the mouth). Here in Moadamiyah it's both seen on video and described, as if from a video the guy saw. Another video - Syria, Chemical Massacre in Mudhamiat Ash-Sham - shows several alleged gas victims in a basement, including the proof of one woman's blue face, blue right arm, and blue patch of floor beneath her. The last of course suggests this isn't in her skin but on it, and so is fake (see inset). --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:51, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Alleged Birth Defects
9 months later, what do we hear? Activists report Sarin-triggered birth defects. The Telegraph reports:
 * Deformed babies born in Syria after Ghouta gas attack
 * One doctor said the incidents of stillborns at a clinic for refugees across the border in Arsal, Lebanon, was running at more than one in 10 births, while videos posted by activists show badly damaged infants being born in local clinics.
 * The parents of a baby born with a deformed face who died last week near Damascus have also said they are convinced that exposure to gas is responsible. The baby girl, called Fatma Abdul Ghafar, from the suburb of eastern Ghouta was born last Tuesday but died nine hours later.

... Arsal reports stillbirths and premature births, but no mention of deformities. The areas the women are from is way too wide - a medic says "“We are receiving pregnant women in Arsal from many areas such as Qusair, Homs, Kalamoon, and [outer] Damascus," birting stillborns 12% of the time. "The problems for newborn children are mostly occurring in women who were exposed to the chemical weapons, but also we have noticed that all women who lived in areas exposed to shelling by barrels and missiles are suffering fetal diseases.”

The Telegraph says "videos posted by activists show badly damaged infants being born in local clinics." How many then? Strictly genetic or possibly mechanical damage? I may have a look, but no promises. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:27, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

''The available data however, suggest that sarin is not a human carcinogen, reproductive toxin, or developmental toxin. Limited data suggest that chronic or repeated exposure to sarin may result in a delayed postural sway and/or impaired psychomotor performance (neuropathy).'' Nope, facial damage was cited, like someone took a hatchet to their DNA. Others are citing the damaged babies and blaming Assad's new chlorine. Hamish de-Breton Gordon is cited as saying, boild down: "we saw similar from Halabja victims. I’m obviously not a doctor but ... chlorine ... [is] mutanogenic.” In the hands of a Baath Party dictator, at leas. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:12, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Debunked: Must the Belgian babies be bayoneted all over again?

Rebel Captives?
What if the people who were in rebel hands, once dead, had been that way before they died from poison gas?

From Latakia
Speculation along these lines has mainly focused on the possibility that the hundreds of Alawite civilians captured just days earlier in raids far to the north (see Latakia Massacres) were the true victims. That gets its own page here: Killed hostages?
 * ''Moved to Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Latakia connection?

(might be worth re-arranging once someone decides a best method) --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Voltaire Net Identification of the dead children in Ghouta – 6 September 2013
 * ''Following the broadcasting of the images of the massacre in Ghouta, Alawite families from Latakia have filed a complaint for murder.
 * The children do not correspond to a sample of the population: they are all almost of the same age and have light hair. They are not accompanied by their grieving families. They are in fact children who were abducted by jihadists two weeks before in Alawite villages in the surroundings of Latakia, 200km away from Ghouta.
 * The only identified victims of the Ghouta massacre are those belonging to families that support the Syrian government. In the videos, the individuals that show outrage against the ’’crimes of Bashar el-Assad’’ are in reality their killers.
 * I just added a Sky News Interview with an Assad Advisor who tells the same story. If it is true, why don't we have detailed reports about it including parents statements, not through the Russian channels, not through SyrPer or SANA, etc? They should know that it's urgent by now, shouldn't they? A few lines by VN of all places sure isn't enough. Maybe there's something in the English language Syrian TV reports? --CE (talk) 18:44, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Voltaire Net says: The wide distribution of satellite channel images of victims allowed Alawite families near Latakia to recognize their children who had been abducted two weeks prior by the "rebels."
 * Most likely the parents do not have access to YouTube and do not even know that the videos would be freely available for anyone to watch. What they do is sit glued to their TV sets waiting for al-Jazeera's massacre porn hour. They may then see a glimpse of their children but have no way of identifying the source – other than "my daughter was on al-jazeera."
 * We have supposedly been studying this massacre for over two weeks now and are just starting to identify the locations and the associated videos and victims. Thierry Meyssan says the French services "saw about 281 victims on videos", evidently grouping the videos and identifying each victim shown. If only this work was done in the open! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:09, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing much for a list in here ... Just sayin'. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Captured "Shabiha"
A bit closer to Ghouta, where at least many of the dead have been visually confirmed as being, there seems to have been a large-scale round-up of alleged "Shabiha" militiamen in the Damascus suburbs, some of whom bear compelling similarities to alleged Sarin victims shown on video: There are seven fairly compelling matches made, in this important video, of gassing victims who might also be, primarily, "Shabiha" (singular Shabih), taken captive by rebels in the days before the chemical massacres. CV=captured video, date the cited version is posted, so no later than then. (one gripe, they didn't track down the most primary postings) Each match could have notes and details added below or my entries altered to be better, and any further matches we find or hear of could be added. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Video by NevaehWest, published Sept. 11: Syria Undeniable PROOF SNC & Al Farok did Chemical Weapons Attack in Syria 8 21 2013
 * 1) @ 6:11, "Shabih," CV Aug 18, seen dead in (??)
 * 2) @ 6:16, "Shabih" (was on an important mission), captured app. in Raqqa, CV = Aug. 18,
 * 3) @ 6:21, elderly "Shabih," CV = Aug. 18
 * 4) @ 6:27, accused thief (from a dozen), CV=(??)
 * 5) @ 6:36, old man "Shabih," CV=July 26, seen dead in (Zamalka?)
 * 6) @ 6:43, elderly "Shabih," CV=July 26, seen dead in Kafr Batna?
 * 7) @ 7:02, "Babykiller" "Shabih," CV=Sept. 1 (clearly delayed, if a match),  seen dead w/dead boy and girl (he's said to be single and the kids someone else's, but both kids have a build similar to his)--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

A big goof-up in the video: it cites people arrested in Rabia, which might be Rabiyah, Latakia, on Aug. 14. (Cited video) Rabiyah is rather near Salma (a bit NW), where the Latakia Massacres were launched from. But they'd just lost in heavy fighting there, and it didn't seem right, So I dug for Aug. 14 Rabia news and turns out there was trouble that day in Rabia, 'Egypt. In the search, the Rabia sign got my attention - same time and style and out-of-nowhere-ness as the Ghouta chemical massacre sign. Huh. Considered terrorist in Egypt, but you can see in that video who's the terrorists in Rabia, shooting from rooftops while video is shot from (the same) rooftop. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:34, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Other Prominent Prisoner Possibilities
A whole mess of Kurdish civilians were captured in Kurdistan around Aleppo at the same time and a bit before the Lattakia village raids. Other possibilities exist, and there were likely thousands held nationwide prior to this fattening of the lamb. Details could go here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Reports of Displaced Victims
I could swear we included somewhere, and maybe did, some reports that the people who died here were overwhelmingly displaced people, especially from Homs. I'll be digging this back up, but it's important. They had all just moved to these vacated rebel-held wastelands, to live all on their own in random abandoned buildings extremely prone to vapor invasion. And it was they - whole families but apparently a bit man-heavy, who bore the brunt of it. Very fishy. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * What I really want to cite in my article, and may whether I re-locate it or not: There was a place I read that some of the dead were unknown to the locals, recent arrivals fleeing from violence elsewhere, just living in abandoned homes. They said some names were only known because the people had scratched them on the walls. If this rings a bell, and anyone can say which bell, that would be great. Google didn't help easily enough - too much time trying already. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:35, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Do Syrians sleep in winter overcoats?
One disturbing aspect of the videos (not these, but all the videos) is the all the victims I have seen are fully dressed. Some, as the ones in the Planted bodies? video, have thick, winter-type overcoats. Do Syrians sleep fully clothed?

One could try to explain this anomaly by claiming that all of Eastern Ghouta was under heavy bombardment and people had gotten dressed to seek shelter. In fact many of the Western news stories inadvertently claimed the chemical attack was preceded by shelling. I have not seen any real proof of this bombardment. It is just a word revolutionaries will repeat in every sentence. The area effected by the chemical attack is huge. Unless the whole Luftwaffe was blitzing them, the safest place for Syrians would be in their own beds. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Who keeps coats long after winter: the homeless, nowhere else to put it, don't want to loose it. Prisoners not issued uniforms - similar to the last, can take it off in the prison, but will put it on during field trips to abandoned buildings. Especially mothers, instinctively, to hide babies, food, etc. beneath. Any shield you're allowed, you'll bring it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A later thought and probably more relevant: adult female prisoners of Islamists must remain covered. A black Hijab is preferred, but more "modern" women (hated by Islamists but worth money, possibly) don't even own a hijab to bring with. So, they're told cover your hear and wear one of your long black coats. Islamist prisoners, pretty good evidence right there. --Caustic Logic (talk)

The HRW report from August 21 says there was no fighting in Ghouta at the time of the attack and people were sleeping in their homes when they got "gassed". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

The Weather in Damascus at the time was daily maximum 36C and night minimum over 20C. Not exactly overcoat weather.

--Charles Wood (talk) 00:55, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Alleged Victims who Died Too Early
The overriding opposition narrative of the Ghouta gas attacks says that it started between 2 and 3 am on August 21. Anyone who died before that clearly didn't die from that. An analysis partly done on this site verifies at least 8 massacred civilians presented as victims but really who were decayed victims of something criminal, in a rebel-held area, no later than August 18. This is explained in detail and left on the subpage: Zamalka ghost house‎.

In summary, eight bodies shown August 24 as just found "36 hours after a chemical weapons attack" they implicitly died from. But the symptoms they show are mainly just decay, gunshot, possible gunshot, slice to the arm, much unseen, and ooze that could be the mucous seen elsewhere or, again, decay, and clearly far more than 36 hours worth. A fair range seems to be 4-7 days. Then a perfect clothing match ties six of these eight (including all five children with the most distinctive clothes) to videos posted back on August 22. 9 victims total, they say, of "the chemical massacre." It's the same people already found, scooped up, driven to a mass grave, and dropped in, as said no later than the 22nd, so likely killed, by whatever exactly, at least 2-3 days before the alleged missiles were fired. That's false attribution. The onsite clues suggests they were captives/hostages, taken to this empty building still under construction, and somehow executed. It's clearly not their home, devoid of furnishings. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Stabbed Girl?

 * ''Moved to Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations/Erbin

Answer: No, the girl was not stabbed.

Executed Family
See Zamalka Ghost House A family of 9 (8 seen, including five children) was apparently executed some 2-5 days before the alleged chemical attack. The man and a boy appear to have been shot in the head, and one of the women has been sliced on the right forearm. Other details of their demise are unclear except that by decay they also died too early (see above) and suggest prisoners (above that). This group fits a few shady bills. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

SunMorgue non-CW Deaths
As Denis O'Brien pieced together in Murder in the SunMorgue, the Kafr Batna morgue victims were gassed not with Sarin but with CO or Cyanide gas, except for several notable exceptions.
 * The Women: It's not one of the clearer findings, but compelling: while men and children show major lividity of the named poisons, the dead women (around 12-18 of them out of about 100 total) have no discoloration, either red (CO/Cyanide) or blue (Sarin). Quite likely raped first, these rebel hostaghes were perhaps just suffocated in the end. (part C, pages C-34-35)
 * Two men pop out as likely throat-slicing victims. One is M-012, who may have been killed that way before the morgue, but the imagery isn't terribly clear. (part D, pages D-25-28) Much more clear is victim M-015, who clearly had his throat cut (poked,sliced, etc unclear). When first put here, he was regular dead, no blood on him or the floor, and his hands are relaxed, face covered in white. Later, his face is uncovered, the white sheet is on his neck, wicking up some blood, which soaks down heavily into a full-sized light blue sheet. That's now dark, saturated, and the overflow is what we see on the floor - there's a lot of blood right there, mostly wadded up behind his head. Also, since first laid out, he fists clenched, gripping his shirt. We can't tell is his facial expression changed, since it was covered first, but his eyes seem to be open the smallest slit, FWIW. A fairly heavybuilt man, he might be a good candidate for CO under-dose, who might start stirring in the morgue, and get finished off in such a way. They figure some sheets will fix the problem - no one's really paying attention anyway, right? Just show Assad CW victims you couldn't save and beg for serious foreign help this time... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Bleeding from nose
Here is another photo with heavy bleeding from the nose. I do not think a bleeding nose is a symptom of sarin. Could chlorine do this? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I see similar burning to the folks discussed below, slight only (front side, right?) and maybe a bit of the mucous foam on his nostril, but it's otherwise drowned out by lots of blood. I don't know how likely that is from ... what this did to the others. Maybe this one didn't get enough and "came back alive" (that was reported somewhere) but only briefly. He probably has a fatal stab or shot somewhere below the face, all tightly wrapped here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Ooh, we may have something here. Thanks for making me look at that, Petri. I was just reading Mother Agnes' report, and it mentioned the purple-shirted girl is seen alive in one the videos I though she was dead in, in the clinic. My playback for Youtube never works well and I can't save this one. Can anyone else with better playback tell me if she seems to be breathing or moving in that? The boy next to her, seen first, seems clearly alive. Problem is, he look a hell of a lot like the bleeding nose kid. I can't be certain of a match - the nose artifact in the video isn't there (only a smudge or part of its shape?) The eye shadows might have a different shape, lip proportions top vs. bottom may not match. But that's not clear enough to say no, and hair type, basic face shape, long lashes, prominent front tooth, puffed lips, shaded eyes, and especially those eyebrows, all are really similar. I figure it was worth the comparison image here. If the same, he started with only an irritated nose, teary eyes, maybe sweaty, plum-colored lips, and notably no burnt skin (it seems) or tiny scratches, no foam, and no blood pouring out of him and not dead. If him, what cause all that and just when, after he came under rebel medical care? Because it happened to a lot of other people too. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

After scanning some images now listed below, blood from the nose is a symptom seen in a narrow set of victims, listed by the Center for Documentation of Violations as from Ain Tarma. Two boys and a girl so far, all unidentified, show the burning symptoms and thick mucous plug we've noticed here, more severe than the first cases pinned down in Kafr Batna. And in all three Ain Tarma victims, there is some apparent blood mixed in. One of the boys bled a fair amount, but none of them quite like this boy, despite the lesser chemical burns he received. I was partly looking for him, but he didn't seem to appear in the search. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:53, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Body Recycling?
There are allegations that a smaller pool of victims was passed off as a larger one by presenting the same victims numerous times, each time as different victims. There's at least one alleged example of this alleged, concerning some of the larger victims arrays shown. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Swedish Expatriates Analysis
This video tries to debunk a large part of the story (now translated into English): The same group of small children (girls mainly, like the ones we saw in the Baniyas massacre) are filmed in at least three different arrangements. Each piece of footage is then published by a different rebel YouTube channel. (One of them is the Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee) Did they move the bodies around to film them in different parts of the Eastern Ghouta? For all I know these could be Kurd children massacred in Tal-Abyad by ISIS. (See Dead girls in morgue above.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Fake massacre by Syrian army using Chemical weapons – Translated by Syrians in Sweden
 * Watched that. I agree with their call. It seems she's been been presented in three spreads that seem to be described as different victims batches in different towns. Three times, one victims. Other matches should be likely if so. And yes, they would be that sloppy and usually are. But in one room, we see what looks like about two dozen young girls. As a baseline indicator, this has to be big. I'd estimate 30 boys, 20 women, 30 men, another just-triple-digits on-the-fringes "Shabiha" massacre of certain families is a lot what it looks like, but with no visible wounds. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The debunk is debunked here: The Ghouta Chemical Attack Propaganda Frenzy - Debunked:

I checked the debunk, and it seems pretty good. I'm not sure the first two are the same room, but it was never made clear they're even supposed to be different places. Both first videos fail to mention where they are. I can add that at least four other children come out in common between the two, meaning it is exactly the same array. Whatever place(s) these are, it's apparently not Irbin, because the third video says it is and it's a different place. But as the debunkation was ableto show, it's not the same girl. Yellow and gray, but not in the right places. Otherwise similar, but not the same. I wondered about the purple shirted girl near her, and there are two similar tops appearing in the first videos, but the sub-colorsdo not match. Different body arrays shown between the three videos: two. If there's deception in the first two, it wasn't shown here. The Swedish activists failed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The location is most connected with the Kafr Batna Coordination Committee, a real hospital or a temporary one in school or other public building. We should have out own subpage for this one site and start off by identifying the hospital location. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The hospital location in Kafr Batna is identified here: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations.
 * Discussing the events at the site sites should happen here: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations/Kafr Batna.
 * The purple girl however seems to be at some other location. Where? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:52, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I was thinking this page could have sections for each town's body array(s). Irbin is partly covered. Locations might best be covered under Main talk, locations, like I just did with the Zamalka mass grave. Too many pages is a possible problem too. This one should have some space to spare. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * CL, if I follow you, I have to disagree. There is the MRBREEN vid that shows the old guy holding the "purple kid" (I don't think anyone can say it's a girl) with the conspicuous mark on the chest and puts that purple kid down on the floor next to what is pretty certainly a girl wearing a yellow shirt that has grey shoulders/neck region.  Those two exact same kids are arranged next to each other in the same way (purple on yellow's R side) in the debunked stills and vid showing lots of kids. The purple kid also shows up on the black table in another vid. But I think debunked is right about the girl in yellow/grey not being the girl in yellow next to the wall in the third vid.  Debunked also makes outrageously weird statements about the injections.  Debunked says the syringe is to take blood samples b/c everyone knows that you can't give an injection to a corpse.  Well, how does one take blood samples from a corpse, unless you go into a very large artery and that would be a pretty major undertaking.?  I believe undertakers cut into the femoral a.  My guess is any vein and most arteries (which are more muscular) would collapse completely once there is no BP.  So, contrary to debunked, what the injections almost certainly prove is that these are not corpses -- they have a circulation.  Even if the injections are intra-muscular, there would have to be circulation. --Pierpont (talk) 22:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)Pierpont
 * Engaging the material, good. I think we agree and the problem is you aren't following fully. :) The kid is almost surely a girl. Like her sister she's got little stud earrings (not always visible), long-ish hair, and a fairly girly shade of purple. But whichever, they are shown side-by-side in a body array also given as Irbeen. And yes, in the hospital, both of them are there. The yellow shirt has happy bunnies on it. No disagreement here, and in fact I have all this in here somewhere. The yellow girl mismatch is the core of the debunk, and we all agree on that - one is in Irbeen, one Kafr Batna, each seen a few times at least. As for extracting blood, I don't really know, but I would guess suction pulling from still blood as opposed to pressure against it would work way better. It must; blood samples are frequently taken from the dead, I think with syringes. My guess is the debunk is right on that point too, but still wrong on the big picture. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya
The recycling issue is again brought up here: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Look With Your Own Eyes: The Videos of the Chemical Attacks in Syria Show Tampered Scenes – Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Global Research, September 19, 2013
 * One nun puts entire US intel community to shame over 'stage-managed' Syria footage – Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, RT, September 19, 2013
 * Best parts by Penny

The skeptic guy (tried to post this morning, will catch up on newer comments tonight)- I've let Mother Agnes know too, but all this stuff, here more than in the report, is way too heavy on 'only kids,' 'no women,' etc. I've even seen 'the kids are too fair-skinned not to be Alawites' from her camp. I've seen too many scenes where children are piled here and men over there, where women are missing, or laid nearby. We do see few women and it's worth noting, but they could be under the sheets or in the next room, so why is their absence a core argument? The yellow shirt mistake is in there, alerted. I was a little disappointed with the report, as much good stuff as there is/might be (checking some others). Anyone else? Because most so inclined seem to be taking this eagerly without criticism. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I do not know anything about Syrian racial makeup, but it is true, the children look strikingly light skinned, like Snow White (or SyrianGirl) with fair skin and black hair. Could this be a sign of them being Kurdish, or are all Syrians like this? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:53, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

VDC Martyrs Database
The Center for Documentation of Violations in Syria (CDV or VDC) is an opposition group with a detailed and useful (if not really trsutworthy) database of "martyrs." Their records now indicate: This large body of dubious data is worth examining for at least alleged patterns. The VDC is actually based in Syria, in East Ghouta - Douma, to be particular. They list, I think, zero Douma death - none from, martyred in, or mentioned in the notes. Above, we have the 4 early opposition tallies with Douma not mentioned in two, and having 58 or 150 killed in the other two ... maybe from those "rescued" to there and just not noted? Or does the VDC check better closer to home? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 925 "verified" victims of the Ghouta Massacre (all martyrs killed August 21, 2013 by "Chemical and toxic gases."

Note: On December 10, 2013, the lady that runs the VDC, Razan Zaitouneh, was kidnapped with her husband and another employee, right from their offices, by masked gunmen. Fate still unclear to me. (see: Abduction of Razan Zaitouneh) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

VDC General Patterns
I looked at the opposition Center for Documentation of Violations (CDV, usually called by me SCDV, wrongly) database. It's a thing I usually do, a little late here. Here's what I found messing with different parameters, all of course based on what was reported to them: All Damascus suburbs deaths from "Chemical and toxic gases" Aug. 21: 509, out of 542 total "martyr" deaths. This morning it said 510, but the overall death toll remains the same; one was demoted. By category, chem alone (total): Child, female: 44 (45). Child, male: 49 (51). Adult female: 115 (119) Adult male: 301 (327). That's way too many men to be totally random, even including teenagers - it's more than the other categories combined. That's gender segregation, isn't it? Was the Syrian equivalent of the YMCA hit? implied core of families, older children as children, not adults, rough estimates: adult women minus teenagers = 90. girls +30 = 75. boys + 35 = 86. Adult men of families: 120. Non-attached men: 179? --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Order of reports: numbers are issued as reports come in, and they're listed by number order. The first entries are from Mouadamiyeh, then a bunch from Zamalka, coming from both in intermingled bursts, Ain Tarma Kafr Batna ... really scattered returns, main feature is how the majority say Zamalka. Jobar and Daraya victims come in only in ones, then several from Hazza, more Zamalkas, Kafr Batna... that's part of the list scanned, into page 2. What stands out too is how a majority of all entries say Zamalka: 344 out of the 509 (it was 345 earlier, the demoted one was one of them). men 198, women 83, boys 30, girls 34 (of 44 total to chems!) I think these locations refer to where they're from, not necessarily where they died. At least a few say Area: Zamalka. Martyrdom location: (blank). --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Non-civilian deaths in what included a government offensive against rebels and rebel-held areas: of 301 men gassed, 13 are listed as on-civilian. Another 13 were killed with other weapons, rhe list says, for a total of 26 acknowledged rebel fighters killed in the Damcus suburbs that day. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would expect men – out fighting at night – to be more exposed that children in protected bedrooms. Aerosol nerve agents just cannot get in. Kerry has the numbers upside down, with one third children. This ratio would need specific targeting, like hostages killed or something. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * But this is civilian men, not supposedly out fighting. However, fathers and uncles will also go out to investigate, find food, fight if needed, and leave the wife and kids at home. And so, more men from more homes would be out when it hit, gassing a wide area, with less families in basements only in the immediate area. (If aerosol can't do it, let's say they blame a heavy creeping gas). So the same pattern would hold, to whatever degree - more men will die. Okay. But that's in the scenario where there was significant gassing in the open, which we're questioning. If these are primarily killed captives, and the numbers are at all accurate, it seems like the same all or mostly men massacred in Daraya, the Queiq River, etc. Or Possibly laundered rebels included, in huge numbers, or some combination. Just what SCDV records mean, as usual, isn't certain. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The SCDV list is still shrinking! It said 510, then 509, now 507 deaths.This time, the total number changed: 542 to 540. So no one was demoted to a different death, but rather all the way to not dead at all. I have no good way to discern which people these were. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Their Arabic language list is different, FWIW:544 total deaths, 511 by chemicals, ATM. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * English list is back up, 512 now. The end of the list, last added I think, tend to be women and children and related men, from Zamalka and mostly Erbeen, somehow documented late, but some (like this little baby girl) have (delayed?) photos of recently dead people. She's their victim #94048. 94047 died in Homs September 3. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I arranged the English list by "Area". Out of the 512 a total of 340 are from Zamalka. 73 are from Mouadamiyeh. Interestingly, only 15 are said to be from Kafr Batna, although the morgue there was shown to contain 100 bodies. Could it be, that the Kafr Batna bodies were from Zamalka. Maybe Kafr Batna has better health facilities. There was a hospital there, but I do not know if that is where the bodies are shown.
 * Also note, that the "Area" is not the same as place of death; this woman is filed under "Arbeen", but "Martyrdom location"	is Zamalka. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:35, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Zamalka already noted. Others I didn't check for. I know but forget that area means from. By and large should be the same, but often isn't. Possibly interesting. Also, consider Hazeh as a (possible, alleged) source of victims taken to other areas, as none are recorded there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

VDC Children with Photos
(note: the "burns" mentioned below - red skin - is actually livor mortis, most likely) (note: new options allow searches for entries that have photos) (note: there have been hundreds of new entries since the list below was made - I want to preseve this one to help clarify which others (all not listed here) were added after 21 September, when this list was compiled) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

This can be done for the rest, but I'm starting with male children. I check for all in Damascus suburbs, Aug 21, chemtox, missing photo: 34 entries. Then the same, show all: 52 entries. So most have images with names attached or, frequently, a specification that there was no name yet attached. That didn't narrow it down but by 16. Should I list all 34? Sure. They tend to have the same chemical burns we've found so interesting. I don't know if I've seen these kids around or not. Most or all have this attached news article. Age only when given (not usually, for whatever reason). Order, mostly as listed (except first two). Locations given = Area = area from. Martyrdom location only when given. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:10, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good work. There was an interesting angle developing yesterday while you slept, maybe you missed it while Petri flooded the recent changes with his flip-book. ;o) The image shows the outside wall of the mosque just around the corner from the ghost house. Likely those kids are unidentified. Matches would be interesting. --CE (talk) 13:48, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw that briefly, but it did get buried. Thanks for that link, will review soon. Those little blurry snippets could probably be matched with photos if we had them. And we might. Another thing to check.--Caustic Logic (talk) 14:49, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Worth to keep in mind. I also found some other interesting videos yesterday. --CE (talk) 14:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said in the other thread, some of the photos seem to have the "Erbin City" logo, Indicating they were printed out of some internet material. If Zamalka has found them, so should we. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Boys
 * Unidentified 1 (baby, Jobar, seen in this video held aloft with Unidentified 2.
 * Unidentified 2 see above. No mark or sign on either, no foam, etc. Diapers conceal incontinence by design.
 * Khalil Nizar al-Dummarany Mouadamiyeh. burns and nose-foam.
 * Yassin Nizar al-Dummarany Mouadamiyeh
 * Ikrema Nizar al-Dummarany Mouadamiyeh
 * Omar Naser Mansour Mouadamiyeh, bad burns to right half of face
 * Hammam Naser Mansoor splotchy burns all over
 * Unidentified Ein Tarma. Nasty mix of blood and mucous out the nose, burnt all over
 * Unidentified Ein Tarma, same as above, more mucous, less blood, less burning
 * Rida Mohammad Ali al-Baladi Area: Jobar. Martyrdom location: Ein Tarma. Mother's Name: Mona Santeeha. No visible symptoms. Isn't Rida a girl's name?
 * Unidentified Ein Tarma. Little if any signs.
 * Yousef Mohammad Ali al-Baladi Mother's Name: Mona Santeeha. Area: Ein Tarma, Martyrdom location: blank.
 * Unidentified baby, burns and purple lips.
 * Ahmad Zaidan Photo: a girl, alive and dead with mud. Area: Zamalka.
 * Ammar Adnan Tari Zamalka, no visible signs.
 * Shadi Yamen Al-Naddaf Age: 6. Zamalka. Photo: shown alive only (stock photo)
 * Ismael Fares Qablawi Zamalka. Mother's Name: Nariman Tello. Photo: alive only.
 * Mohammad Fayad Abdul Ghafar Area: Erbeen. Baby, no signs.
 * Girls (same methods and notes)
 * Islam Abdo al-Syed Ahmad Mouadamiyeh. Blurry, no visible signs.
 * Maryam Nizar al-Dummarany Mouadamiyeh. white mucous in the mouth, possible faint burning
 * Besan Nizar al-Dummarany Mouadamiyeh, no signs.
 * Amani Rajab Mouadamiyeh, no clear signs
 * Maria Fahed al-Laham Area	Hazza Martyrdom location	Zamalka. Photo: alive only.
 * Unidentified Area: Ein Tarma. Extreme face burns, mouth and nose filled with gunk, a bit of blood in it.
 * Judi Yamen Naddaf Age: 4. Area: Zamalka. Photo: alive (stock)
 * Ragad Raslan Zamalka. Dark eyes, no other visible symptoms.
 * Duaa Ayman Dahla Zamalka. Photo: alive
 * Safa Faris al-Qabalawe Zamalka. Photo: alive, super-cute toddler
 * Feryal Fares Qablawi Zamalka. Mother's Name: Nariman Tello
 * Yaman al-Basal Erbeen. Left side of face badly burned, lips purple, nose plugged.
 * Unidentified Erbeen. Baby. Gasping, yellow-ish, no other signs.
 * Unidentified 2 Erbeen, sunken eyes, no other sign. No mucous sign at all.
 * Riham Muhannad Tieba Area: Mleha. Martyrdom location: Ain Tarma. Shown alive and dead, no clear symptoms.

VDC By District
Each district, with from (area) died in (martyrdom location, when given) and anything else in the notes. (mostly f/c, needing a better check)

Damascus 74 - D. Suburbs: 821 unknown+other: 0 -Qun/Has/Tartous/Sweida: 0 All (listed as from) outside D + DS = 29 only
 * M al-Sham (Mouadamiyeh) = 59 from (53 men, 5 women, 4 girls, 7 boys) Some of the men were the first victims recorded by VDC from anywhere. - 7 from elsewhere martyrdom location here. A real assortment. "Mouadamiyeh" in notes = 0.
 * Zamalka = 641 from (347m 222w 72c) ml=19)
 * Ain Tarma (or Ein Tarma) - 25 from - ML = 20
 * Hazza = 14 from - 0 ML - 0 Notes
 * Kafr Batna = 16 from (0 with photos) - ML 0 - 17 with "Kafr" in notes 0 of these has photos
 * Jisreen: 1 from (rebel fighter)
 * Saqba
 * Hamouria (Hmouria) = 1 from (rebel fighter)
 * Irbin (Erbeen, Arbeen)
 * Douma = 0 from, 0 ML, 0 notes
 * Harasta (Hrasta)
 * Jisreen (Jesreen) = 82 AM = 53 AF=18 CM=8 CF=3
 * Other: East Ghouta, unspecified, Rankus, Mleha, Beit Naiem, Amara, Daraya, Maheen, Qaboon Damascus, Bab Sreja Damascus, Maheen, Latakia (1), Hama (1), Deir Ezzour (10), a couple towns of Deraa ...
 * Lattakia: 1 Jamil Mohammad Beetar Martyrdom location: Damascus Suburbs: Mouadamiyeh
 * Hama: 1 Hama: Abu Hashim Martyrdom location: Damascus Suburbs: Mouadamiyeh
 * Deir Ezzor: 10 from - 2 FSA, 2 "defected soldiers" aged 21, 6 civilians of two families (Bagdadi, Khafaja) - all documented early on (page 1, first 100)
 * Aleppo - 3 from
 * Daraa 11 from - some rebels and a Qonbos family. A boy of the family at least has Martyrdom location: Damascus Suburbs: Zamalka
 * Homs - 3 from, man woman and boy, all from Maheen.

VDC Corrected Areas
(f/c)

Other Victims Records
It's said there are lists compiled with over 1,000 names. If anyone finds any, they could be linked here. I looked only a bit, might take an Arabic search on Facebook. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

At right is a Facebook timeline photo of a partial list, 33 victims, from the rebel-run "Legal Office of the City of Erbin."


 * Syrian Network for Human Rights (SNHR) via "Impunitywatch" - has links to videos, photos, and a list of victim names they say shows "Civilians: 511 victims, including 117 children and 108 women" (Arabic language, image, not copy-able text, so useless ATM)  --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

s.o.s.syr.un
Here is a list on Facebook (text saved) of a LCC-sized death toll - 646 deaths accounted for, named individually up to 201, then in giant groups with bulk explanations. It's headed (trans) "Our National Council. Our demand military intervention. Under the supervision of the United Nations." (is that the group's name? - domain s.o.s.syr.un - UN help Syria) And it describes what it lists as "- 646 Shahid chemical weapons from Damascus and its countryside towns - 19 martyr chemical weapons from outside towns Damascus and its countryside." --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

There is a lot of useful (alleged) information in this list, some of it to be worked into areas above. Here I'll note a key feature of it - it says a majority of victims (the 445 given in lumps) were all unidentified. This was compiled on August 22, so it could be that many people simply hadn't been identified in the chaos. But it could be a clue. One thing that captors who'd taken hostages and their identity cards or papers can do is identify them easily. So perhaps they'd decide not to - they'd rather not name the hostages or make up fake names, so they "just found them like that." For what it's worth and because there's space, the entries for over 2/3 of their victims, "did not reach their names": --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

201-236 - Thirty-six martyrs Sham Medmah. 236-294 - Fifty-eight martyrs ... arrived for field hospitals in the city Douma ... 294-394 - a hundred Shahid ... arrived to field hospitals in city Kafr Batna ... 394-544 - hundred and fifty martyrs ... field hospitals in the city Hamouriya ... including 50 / children / women 40/50 Youth (men?) ... 544-574 - Thirty martyr ... field hospitals in the city Irbeen ... including 23 children and 17 women. 574 - 643 - Sixty-nine martyrs ... in the city Sakba ... 643-646 - Four martyrs of them is not recognized ... in the city of bridges ( جسرين - jsryn = Jisreen?) as a result of the bombing of regime forces of the Eastern Ghouta chemical weapons
 * (from the double-use of cut-off numbers - 294, 394, 544, etc.) it seems they undercounted by a few. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Then, past 646, further entries with no numbers. I count 19 more, 14 "martyrs," five "Mujahid," all killed "as a result of the bombing of regime forces to chemical weapons," most of them from out of town and worth a closer look. Martyrs: Jamil Mohammed al - Bitar / Latakia / cited in Medmah City Sham, Abu Hashim ( not up the name ) / hamah / cited in Medmah City Sham, Abu Ali ( not up name ) / Qunaitra / cited in Medmah City Sham ... Abu Bakr ( not up name ) / Aleppo / cited in Medmah ... Abdul Rahman Ahmad al - Khatib 60 years old / Rural of Aleppo - مارع / Zamalka Rural Damascus / cited in the town of Zamalka ... Samia Mohamed Khatib, 55 years old (the wife of the martyr Abdul Rahman Ahmad Khatib) (same info) ... Mujahid: Mahmoud F Aeran 50 / Deir al - Zour - Abu Kamal / martyred in East Gouta ... Abbas Asad flea 21 / Deir al - Zour - Abu Kamal / martyred in East Gouta  ... Hassan ( Abuahd ) ( did not reach nickname ) 21 / Deir al - Zour - Abu Kamal / martyred in East Gouta ... Nasser al - Balkhi / shield - Bosra Sham Army / free / martyred in the East Gouta ... Sami Mohammad Kurdi Guenbs ( قنبس ) / shield - warm (dr'ea - alharh ) Army free (FSA) / cited in the town of Zamalka More martyrs, related to last Mujahid Guenbs ( قنبس ): Fatima ( did not reach nickname ) ( (wife of?) Sami Guenbs ) / shield - warm / cited in the town of Zamalka -  Child: Abdul Karim Sami Guenbs /  (same info) - Child: Abdullah Sami Guenbs (same) - Girl: Asma Sami Guenbs (same) - (name unknown - wife of the martyr Sami Mohammed Guenbs -  Samih Mohamed Guenbs, / shield - warm / cited in the town of Zamalka - a second unnamed wife of Sami Mohammed?   --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hisham Ashkar

 * The Chemical Massacre in Eastern Ghouta: The Distance Between the Images and the Victims Hisham Ashkar / April 22, 2014

Mostly on or Mostly Off? Impressive-looking work, citing the VDC, getting names for every victim in one photo, supposedly identifying the 'not-stabbed' girl in Irbin, talking to her family, etc. Seems like a source worth poring over a bit, massive alleged details here, but... I'm curious what proof there was those are the real family members ... and how this guy would do at identifying, say, the Kafr batna victims. Who was M-015, and what's the story of his demise? Etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Families/Names of Interest
By the precedents set in the Homs Massacres, these names might appear in records before and since, as frequently getting massacred by whatever the regime is doing that month. Might be worth some checking. But of course this case is different from most, false names and whole false people and families are more likely than usual (by an amount I can't quantify) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Dummarany
 * Hazroumeh
 * Baladi
 * Ghazi
 * Arhim
 * Unidentified
 * Baghdadi
 * Tayer

Ghazi
VDC, All Ghazi victims, = 24 (6 men 8 women  6 boys 4 girls). Most include the note "he/she is Palestinian." No other victims have that in the notes; these are the only noted Palestinians. They're listed as mostly from Zamalka, but some ended up in Kafr Batna, some listed from there, one corrected, the rest likely wrong. They come in 4 groups by family, wives oddly given with husband's names, not maiden (father's) name:
 * Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi and Muna Ali Husain Ghazi (has a photo dead, masking tape with red numbers, and note "in another source the name of her father is Jamile") - both "married with 6 Children." Died with all 6 children: Fatima Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi (adult male, sic) Asmaa Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi (Adult - Female) Hiba Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi (Child - Female) Reem Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi Civilian Child - Female Aysha Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi Civilian Child - Female Sulaiman Mahmoud Sulaiman Ghazi Civilian Child - Male. All say "Mother's Name Muna Ali Husain Ghazi." All listed as from Zamalka.
 * Yosef Sulaiman Ghazi (apparently the above man's brother) and Iman Ghazi of Zamalka Married with 4 children. Died with all 4: Abod Yosef Sulaiman Ghazi Civilian Child - Male - Bayan Yosef Sulaiman Ghazi Civilian Child - Female - Mohammad Yosef Sulaiman Ghazi Civilian Child - Male. Hanan Yosef Sulaiman Ghazi, adult female, mother Iman, "The name Came From al-Sel hospital in Kafr Batna, it came from another source that she is from Kafr Batna, She is of Palestinian origins"
 * Mohammad Saad Ghazi of Zamalka ("he is of Palestinian origine"), died with "Wife of Mohammad Saad Ghazi" ("She is Palestinian") Married with two children, they died along with "Son of Mohammad Saad Ghazi 1" and "Son of Mohammad Saad Ghazi 2. Both listed as children, notes say "he is Palestinian,With His Family" and Mother's Name Nabelah al-Boush.
 * Assorted, not specified as Palestinian: Maha Ghazi, AF, Kafr Batna - Mustafa Ghazi CM Kafr Batna (both: The name Came From al-Sel hospital in Kafr Batna) Ahmad Ghazi AM, from Amara with "Martyrdom location: Damascus Suburbs: East Ghota" and photo with mucous, red numbers on tape - Ismael Ghazi AM, Zamalka - Amenah Saeed Ghazi AF, Zamalka - Sawsan Gamel Ghazi AF, Zamalka --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:31, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Al-Bitar
This name/family is most interesting comparing the VDC records to those of another opposition source, Syrian Shuhada S.Sh. below):

Notes: Rankus is well outside the Ghouta area, in the Qalamoun foothills, about 14 km due north of Douma. It has no gas-attack allegations I know of, so if three died, it was likely all in Moadamiyeh. The Sept. 27 incident is covered [|here,] along with a similar one nearby a month later. In both cases, the victims are almost totally men, with a few boys and in one case a single woman. The October bombing started with 46 dead, with 94 victims (55 adult men) added later). In this case, VDC lists 46 bombing victims, and 1/3 of them, 15, are Bitars! --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

There are different ways to read this, but one puts earlier deaths over later (delayed report is more likely than prediction), distant locations over near (seems smart), and targeted killing of relatives over "indiscriminate" shelling of un-related Bitars, and give this: all these victims are related, maybe with a different actual name, and they were taken from Latakia (not necessarily in the infamous August raids and massacres, but maybe earlier and quieter). Bitar is a common name, but some prior Latakia/Alawite suggestions of it can be found on the Talk:Homs Massacres page, and I doubt that VDC notes are the wrong points here - more likely a window through the lies. They were held some time in Rankus and became "locals," were partly or totally moved to Moadamiya, and all executed Aug. 21 - at least three were included in the gassing, the rest killed however - then they were reported in batches. More study of the videos with Anas (date?), for example, could narrow down the possibilities. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

The husband and wife story seems to be missing something. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Husam from "From Aljoulan, Altelawia clan" - as rendered in the Arabic entry is "من أبناء الجولان عشيرة التلاوية" which renders by itself as "From the Golan clan Allawyh." So is that Alawite (Alawi) after all, or a very similar family name? Alawite vs. Allawyh (العلوية vs التلاوية) doesn't really settle it for me. It's as similar either way. A Google Search for the words in question suggests this is the largest clan in the Golan Heights (Jolani) - not too far south of the Ghouta region. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:23, 13 May 2014 (UTC)


 * From the depths of my 14 hours of intensive Arabic the clan name is ال ت ل ا و ي ة or roughly Al-Talaaooyah (lots of probable vowels in a row and missing diacriticals make it hard for me ( ا و ي ) ). Taa marbouta ( ة ) at the end (left) is 'ah' in this instance. --Charles Wood (talk) 11:40, 15 May 2014 (UTC)


 * However your above translation misses the 'T' ت sound at the start. It's possible that this is another example like the taa marbouta dipthong ة where the T is suppressed when it's the final letter - though it's not something I've seen elsewhere. The name ال ت ل ا و ي ة is Al ta la aa oo ya ah with every every letter pronounced but possibly slurred --Charles Wood (talk) 11:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've not getten the language down yet (some effort). I guess this is just an unspecified clan from the Golan, allegedly at least. Bitar is common enough that Jamal may be unrelated and from Latakia, or whatever. FWIW, the clan nmae seemed familir because it's so similar to Al-Tellawi, the name of a Brigadier-General executed with his teenage sons and nephew Tellawi Family Massacre way back in April, 2011. That was Homs, and they were Alawite. But still, apparently not the same name: التلاوي vs. التلاوية - the same but the last sound. Tellawi was also a name of some Sunni extremists and "activists" in Homs (like Omar al-Tellawi). So, I guess there's nothing very clear here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Al-Ghera
(will move this to front page soon)

A recent matching attempt between Latakia captives and Ghouta CW victims included this comparison - top: kidnapped Alawiite girl, Haneen Talal Saleem, age 9, taken from her home in Baloutah Latakia on 4/8/13. Bottom: a girl victim in Irbin, with a purple t-shirt. The facial similarity is notable, but not conclusive. If that mark on the victim's side (not visible here) is a birthmark, and can be identified as Haneen's, a link would be proven. Until then, unclear. Rebel records have her under at least two different, related names. Hisham Ashkar passed one ID in his article "the distance between the images and the victims" (translation to English April 22, from an Arabic original done last fall)

Showing a different photo of that girl held by a middle-aged man, he wrote "the girl in the purple t-shirt is called Fatima Ghorra, three years old." No she's not. That girl's at least 6, maybe 8 or 9 even. She's not a toddler. This guy's BS detector is broken. What else did he miss? He heard that ID from "one of their relatives" he managed to interview, and he also consulted the records of the Violations Documentation Center (VDC), which if he did it right would have clarified the mix-up in which alleged daughter this was.

"Ghorra" does not appear in the VDC's database, but Ashkar's Arabic original article gives the family name as " غرّة " (it Google-translates as "surprise") Arabic search, 7 entries for Aug. 21. All are relevant - killed by CW, Area:Zamalk. All 7, translated, one adult male, no mother, mostly children, "mother's name" left blank. By entry number:
 * 93014 Mohammad Nabel Gharra Child-male age 12. Added after Aug. 23 when #93015 died.
 * 93038 Nabel Ghera Adult Male, Married and has children. No other notes. Entered after 93039 died Aug. 24. *
 * 93040 Rama Nabel Ghera girl, 15
 * 93041 Betoul Nabel Gera girl, 16
 * 93042 Fatema Nabel Ghera girl age 2 (93043 unrelated, Aug 25)
 * 93044 Danya Nabil Ghera girl, age 9 - Video of the martyr: (The one showing "Fatima" and "Heba"). That's a much closer age than 2/3.
 * 93049 Heba Nabel Ghera girl, 4 - Video of the martyr (Al Jazeera broadcast)

Separately - by "maiden name" as often happens - the mother, apparently, per Ashkar's details: Added much later (didn't set a later-than here)--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 94005 Salima Mohammad Salim al-Sheikh AF, Zamalka. Notes: Buried in Erbeen


 * Most recent Ghouta al-Ghera to die prior to this batch was in Zamalka, August 9 - a civilian man killed by "shelling." Any connection to the abduction of the others? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Ashkar's family details, for comparison:
 * The girl in the purple t-shirt is called Fatima Ghorra, three years old. The girl in the yellow t-shirt is her sister, Hiba Ghorra, four years old. The man is their maternal grandfather, Abu Hamza al-Sheikh. Their father is Nabil Ghorra, a medical doctor, and their mother is from al-Sheikh family. Fatima and Hiba have three sisters and one brother: Battoul, 16 years old, Rama, 15 years old, Muhammad, 12 years old, and Dania, 9 years old. Ghorra family resided in Zamalka. Nearly one year ago, the parents forbade their kids going to school, especially after some pro-regime teacher began showing up to school with their guns, and questioning 12 year old children on their political affiliations. Since then,...
 * (they stayed home away from regime people, hiding from shelling, and learning the best values - the girl's last words - let the others eat today, I can wait)
 * On the 21st of August 2013, at dawn, around eight shells fell on Zamalka, Ain Tarma, and Hazzeh. What followed was a scene of chaos. The ghorra family was dispersed. Abu Hamza al-Sheikh arrived with Fatima and Hiba to the field hospital in Erbine. Fatima and Hiba died, as well as their sisters Rama and Dania. Their father, Nabil, was at first listed among the victims, but was later found in another field hospital, receiving medical treatment. Their brother, Muhammad, was still missing at the time of the interview.
 * The Ghorra girls were buried in a mass grave in the town of Saqba.

This story is strange, and I don't trust that old creep, sole survivor - except maybe Dad, the (rebel?) doctor still listed as dead by the VDC. The mother is not mentioned anywhere in that story except as being this old creep's connection to the family. How she wound up buried in Irbin apart from the girls, her husband, everyone, no clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Douma

 * See also Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations

Google translate's "always" = دوما = dwma (romanized) = Douma

Entire sos.sy.un list contains entries 193, 194, 200 for individual Douma victims, then 58 unnamed ones in a lump. Entries 236-294: "Fifty-eight martyrs did not reach their names / Damascus / arrived for field hospitals in the city Douma as a result of the bombing of regime forces of the Eastern Ghouta chemical weapons" --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 193. Martyr: Abdul Rahman (Abu Hassan) / Damascus - Always / PhD in psychology - Islamic Studies / cited (died) during the evacuation of the martyrs of chemotherapy
 * 194. Mujahid: Abdul Rahman trochanter (Abu Bashar al-) / Damascus - (from?) Douma / Army free (FSA) / cited (died) in the Jobar neighborhood of Damascus.
 * Facebook photo as linked: Looks like a CW victim, asphyxiation, roughed up eyes, mucous from the nose.
 * 200. Martyr: Mahmoud Mohammed Shehadeh Mansour / Damascus - Sham Medmah / died in Douma rural Damascus


 * دوما::عدد كبير من الشهداء جراء الاختناق بالغازات السامة (Always :: large number of martyrs by asphyxiation with poison gas) – outside morgue scene
 * All or mostly adult males (14 seen), mostly wrapped, fighting age, most neither clean-shaven nor bearded. One uncovered is lightly-bearded, wears army fatigue trousers, white sneakers (Shabiha?) and torn t-shirt. Face battered and scratched up, likely explosion, swollen black eye, head wounds, bandaged (or is that just some cap?), tube in arm, fluid drip, something in his mouth. Left arm saw fire and smoke, right hand, blood. All could be soldiers or rebel fighter/defectors. Not the slightest sign of CW involvement I can see, but it's possible. Little clue to location. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Apparently Douma was not claimed as gassed. this activist summary for Douma gives a total of 16 martyrs, with #1 being the red-bearded Mujahid Hero Abdel Rahman trochanter ( المدور ) Abu Bashar, who was martyred chemical weapons on Jobar front of the Mujahideen of Al-Farouk brigade." (Facebook tribute photo). Abdul Rahman, the doctor of psychology and Islam is listed (#15), but otherwise most or all of the rest are Mujahid / rebel fighters as well, killed elsewhere. Pretty close to exactly what the video above shows.

Damascus University Hospital
CNN reports from the Damascus University Hospital after the attack. The staff claim that they do have patients from Eastern Ghouta. All the patients treated suffered from wounds from conventional weapons. (See start of video Confirmation - "Chemical Attack" in Syria was FAKE –  Sep 4, 2013)

It is notable that no victims of chemical attacks have sought help in government run hospitals. Eastern Ghouta is not under a total siege, civilians are able to move in and out – or are they? Would CW victims be prevented from leaving? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:57, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Mohammed Rashad Al Shams
This alleged victim is discussed in two Facebook posts:
 * Obituary published by the Shariah Board for Support of Syrian Revolution
 * He died with his family in the town of Zamalka of East Gouta
 * Obituary by Shariah Board