Talk:Baniyas massacre

Location
This is good to know when possible, but not easy to establish here. I may have a match, however, on Wikimapia: جسر راس النبع "Bridge Ras Spring," the last pronounced Raz Naba. The marking makes it look smaller than it is. "Bridge" strengthens it: an early tweet said "Ras Al-Naba' Bridge has been closed. Activists report unusual-looking "soldiers" among the security forces. People are fearing that the "unusual soldiers" may be Hezbollah." --Caustic Logic (talk) 21:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's a bridge to this area, over the highway, and then there's a river next to it, so it might have once dominated the bridge over that, before the highway divided it, leaving the name attached to the outlying portion. Whatever. At right is the whole area in context, using borders set on Wikimapia, except for al-Nabi, which only marked the middle of it. Al-Bayda and Ras al-Nabi' had reported massacres, with fighting reported in both, and in the Maqrab area. Basateen is mentioned in another early tweet, as above, by Yasmeen Mobayed: "Breaking: Regime forces have surrounded the village of Basateen. All entrances are blockaded." source Note how close all these areas are to each other, along the back route between the fringe district and the southern "liberated" town, fields and the river in between, in a span of about 5 km. The castle at Maqrab would be cool to seize (photo). --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:54, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Searching for "جسر راس النبع" leads me to this video: Storm the station shares the sea ports in Banias - a battalion of Loyalty and Enmity from April 7th. Some massacre in the making. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Still more searching (yeah, link number 6 on the Google search page...) leads me to this "Syriasy" page: A report on the city of Banias and the massacre of Ras al-spring - 200 Shahid posted on May 3. The page has photos and two maps confirming your location and even showing the routes of the attacking "shabiha". There is a victim list with 173 names. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Government Version
SANA give the first deaths caused by security forces earlier than rebels do, on May 2. But it was, in their version, only against armed rebels:
 * A unit of the armed forces seized two weapons' warehouses in a raid against terrorists' dens in al-Bayda village in Banias, Tartous. An official source told SANA that the seized weapons included machineguns, automatic rifles and RPG charges, a pump-action and up-to-date communication devices and ammos. The source added that units of the army killed numbers of terrorists in al-Marqab and al-Bayda villages and Ras El-Nabe' neighborhood in Banias city.

Syrian Perspective blog, drawing on military sources, concurred and reported on the 2nd three fronts of attack: al-Bayda, Al-Marqab, and "In Banyaas itself, at the Al-Nabi' Quarter, we killed 17 rats." Six names are given; "the rest had no papers."

These events seem to be separate from the mass killings of civilians reported only the following day, and first seen widely only on May 4 and after. Voice of Russia spoke on the 4th to "political analyst Dr Haled Haydar of Baniyas," who reported there was no massacre there, only a fight starting on the 3rd, following the violence in al-Bayda. He said:
 * On Friday, the authorities discovered armed infiltrators in Baniyas who threatened to bring their radical comrades from abroad to bear on the town’s people. This intimidation campaign was aimed at boosting the morale of the rebel groups. Unfortunately, some foreign media outlets are part of this campaign. Fortunately, the army has eliminated the infiltrators, and Baniyas is back to normal. The town’s people are on the lookout to discover terrorists and immediately report them to the army. No one blames the Syrian army for the latest trouble in Baniyas.

Otherwise, he said, "the situation in Baniyas, Tartus, Latakia and the surrounding areas is peaceful and calm." In contrast, we have images of horrific violence against women and children. Perhaps these happened elsewhere? Actually, it could be. The "thousands" fleeing were, according to Dr. Haydar, "The departure of two or three households."

Abu Mohammad
Al-Arabiyah, via Yalla Souriya: translates an interview with "Abu Mohammad an eye witness who survived the massacre of ... Ras-Elnabe’ in Banyas." He establishes his credibility with "The people were living in peace before, we have nothing in the villages and there were no armed rebels." So for no reason whatsoever,
 * ("the army") entered at 3:30 and they started shelling, it was around 20 to 30 shell in a minute. The houses were ruined and then they entered and killed everyone alive. This was only one street that I am telling you about if I include other streets, the number of dead exceeds 1500. They are over 1000 only in Ras-elnabe’. They brought a truck (freezer) and they started putting the bodies inside. They took more than 200 martyrs, more than 200 martyrs.


 * ("the army") reached the first house and they forced all people out and they turned their faces to the wall and shot them all. Then in the second house, they killed around 4 or 5. At this time I put some of my family outside and I came back to take the rest of them to take them. Here when I came back I was forced to hide in a little basement. I was stuck inside so I said I am not better than the rest. They took all my family outside with other families. They turned their faces to the wall. They were around 35 members of my family. This is only from my family; there were other families as well. They asked them to turn their faces to the wall and they all did including children. The youngest among them was 15 days old. 8 children among them are aged between 15 days and one year and a half, two years, and three years. Then, one of the army men said literally ” kill all of them do not have mercy at anyone, kill all of them have no mercy at anyone”. I was at this moment in the basement and I heard everything ... After they killed the children. They piled them over each other. And one of them said look this one is still alive, and then they shot the baby in the head. They were picking them one by one and shooting them. If you have seen the pictures, there were two children after they killed them, they burned their hands and legs.

Note: From the number, variety, and piling of victims, he seems to be saying he's the survivor of the horribly piled victims, I count between 30-35 in number. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Presenter: People also said that the killers were speaking a non Syrian accent. Through what you have seen, have you noticed this?
 * Abu Mohammad: Yes yes my dear sister, there was speech I did not understand. I am Syrian from Banyas from Ras-elnabe’. There was speech I could not understand. Some of them were wearing (fatigues), others wearing civilians and white (shoes). They were around 150. ... And the killers belong to more than one sect. There are Alwitte and Shia and from Iran. There are accents I have never heard of. I am Arab and Syrian. I have never heard of such accents.''


 * There were the Rajab family, they killed 16 of them and also the family of Sabag, the family of Al-Aleene, the family of Turuk, the family of Dahbaj, the family of Jalul. The family of Jalul, they killed Abu-Alabed, his two sons, 6 girls, his parents, his two brothers. And the father of Abu-Alabed was disabled, he used the chair he cannot move. And you have also the family of Lahoof and Qasem. ... And there is also the family of Dandesh, they were all burned inside their homes. Three houses are close to each other, they burned them inside their homes. ... When I went outside I saw a little girl crawling and raising her hands. She was shot twice in her hands. When I saw her I felt dizzy and lost consciousness. A neighbour came when he saw me like this he waked me up and we took the little girl. There was also one man of her family still alive.


 * Abu Mohammad: For an hour and a half they remained standing in front of my relatives’ house. After they turned their faces to the wall and shot them all, they went to continue killing in the other houses. They raided other families and the one after and after. ... I am telling you of what I have seen in my own eyes. I went to check what happened to the neighbours, I could not find anyone. More than 1000 died in this area.

"Omar"
New York Times, May 14:
 * After dragging 46 bodies from the streets near his hometown on the Syrian coast, Omar lost count. … Omar, of nearby Ras al-Nabeh, the man who had dragged dozens of bodies from the streets, said he had helped Bayda residents pick up bodies, placing 46 in two houses and the rest in a mosque, then had run away, fearing the return of the killers. He said he had recognized some bodies, including the village sheik, Omar al-Bayassi, whom some considered pro-government. ... For four days, he said, he could not eat, remembering the burned body of a baby just a few months old; a fetus ripped from a woman’s belly; a friend lying dead, his dog still standing guard.

The only burned baby we can verify is supposed to have been killed in Baniyas, and the only pregnant woman we have a visual on is also supposed to be there, and wasn't cut open, at the time of the one rebel video anyway. There's a case here, far from conclusive, for some kind of massacre confusion that's a clue of deception. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Masscares, Women and Children
Initial death tolls claimed around 70 civilians were killed, but the SOHR eventually settled (by May 16) on "145 civilians (34 children, 40 women, 71 men) killed in the Banias massacre." There are horrible photos and videos proving extremely violent deaths by men, women, and numerous children, as small as they come. When families are hit and women outnumber children, it's likely that teenagers, what Westerners would call children, are counted as adults.

The Famous Pile
This is the source of the most famously shocking images of the events here, and one of the worst yet in the war: 20-30 brutalized civilians, including a baby with burnt-off legs, small children with sliced-open faces, and men and women of all ages jumbled together. Truly sickening. Reportedly a government/Shabiha crime, rebels had frequent access to the pile, filming it at night/early morning and for hours in daylight (see videos and analysis below). This, plus night-time access to another array of around 20 bodies of women and children only, come in contrast to what the SOHR calls "evidence proving that the dozens of civilians who were in the torched houses or under the rubble were secretly buried by the Syrian security forces." These could be primarily rebel fighters who died during the rebel defeat and withdrawal, or even foreign fighters rebels burnt to make anonymous. Why were those buried secretly by the state, while these most shocking executed babies were left in the open for rebel cameras to shock the world with? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:26, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Location
The sickening pile of men women and children attributed to this massacre is of special interest to me. This is visibly some excess of 20 people, not the 150 - half men-reported. But it must be the main one among two or more such crime scenes, and has been singled out for the most shocking photos to spur help for the rebels. I intend to start with a scenery panorama from available images, especially the larger batch here (warning! Extremely graphic and horrible!) (thanks, Petri). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I made a little graphic to help look for spots, but I doubt I can reliably find it. It's fairly unique- with its stairs between buildings, one with a little walled area and space next to it where the dead were piled, the other with that raised wall and tree, etc. But the resolution just isn't fine enough, and angles and shadows tend to obscure too much. One thought I had and can't shake is that it might not be in Baniyas at all. This area has a pronounced slope to it, like every spot in Al-Bayda does. It's extremely wet here, almost like a creek at the edge of the pile. That means heavy rains and also that this is no small local slope, but there's some more uphill further up the hill that this mass runoff comes from. There seems to be some slope to Ras al-Nabi', the outer parts in the lower foothills - I can't tell just how much, but all in all it's down next to the river and nearer the coast. I've looked around at both for site matches to be sure one way or the other, but I think it's probably futile unless more videos and images come to our attention.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

This seems to be a poor / slum quarter. There is something that could fit right in the center of Ras Al-Naba. The photos show that there is a narrow alley with stars extending south or south southwest from the pile. I could not find it on Google Earth. All the buildings and blocks seem to be skewed in the wrong direction. We should establish the exact time (from the shadow of the carpet hanging over the wall) and then establish the exact directions from the shadow of the utility post, estimating a time of 1 to 2 hours between the shots. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Same problems locating it here. I'm not as good with vertical shadows. These are pretty vertical, suggesting app mid-day. How do you tell if it's late AM or early PM? The rug shadows suggest - what ... 70-75 degrees elevation? For reference, NOAA calculator says (with DST on) 70-75 el = app. 12:30-1:10 PM or, on the down slope, 2-2:40 PM. If that arbitrary range includes 76, the day's high, the whole span 12:30-14:40 is included. So ... not much help so far, sorry.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:03, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Notice, that the photo is skewed. You have to compare the the shadows to the edge of the wall. We also have a set of photos some two hours later from the previous day. These might help us establish if it am or pm. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * We also have to consider the wall's not totally vertical, or the rugs wouldn't hang out a distance like that. We have two different days of pictures here? I'm still hazy on such details.

Graphics: And between these, I agree the stairs branch off to the south or, actually, to the southwest. The diagram here shows the basic layout as seen from above, with three seen shadow lines shown, perhaps confusingly. The high shadows seem to be about 70-75 degree solar elevation, so around sloar noon. Hence, more likely rotation shown in the corner. Note: the northern "low wall" might be roofed over with corrugated sheet metal. We can't see the surroundings past this corner. There seems to be no daytime video of this scene at all, only photos, which is odd. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Others
There are at least two more videos linked to this massacre, with women and children killed en masse indoors, showing signs of brutality, including holes in and slices to the throat. Details forthcoming... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Massacres, Men
These could be rebel fighters, civilian-dress pro-government militia, or total civilians from either side. They tend to be fighting-age males, but that doesn't mean they were fighters or died fighting.

Roadside Batch 1
widely-seen photo, at least eight men, some bound hands-behind with wire, shirts over heads but shoes on, discoloration and bloating - they've been dead some 2-3 days or so. Camouflage boots far left? here they are on video, covered, May 6: No victims details, just enough to match the scene, and add scenery context, curving road by a wall and nothing else but trees and birds. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * There is an unfinished 5-story building in the background. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Next to a Burned House
At least five murdered men said to be Ras al-Nabi' victims, partly covered with rugs but in an advanced state of decay, can be seen in some photos, like this one, and an icky  video, given as May 6. There, these bodies appear to be dead some 5 days or more, with severe discoloration and bloating and masses of maggots. So, what was happening there in the few days before the government/Hezbollah/whoever attack started about May 3? By their clothing, it seems civilian, modern, middle class, middle-aged, men were being executed. In another video, given as May 5, we can see they're just outside a burned-out and ransacked house, a large and fairly nice one, at one time. What happened to the women and children is not entirely clear. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Sources to Consider

 * Banias Massacre.blogspot.com A dedicated site, apparently by a person who mostly tweets, apparently named Baniyas Massacre. All their life, that name was such a burden, but finally their calling has arrived! Gonna make papa Houla so proud! Is it just the one post there from May 8? Starts out asking "What was happening during the massacres?" but proceeds instead to compile a whole lot of rebel allegations. A handy resource. Gives some names and alleged details. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * An Atrocity in Syria, With No Victim Too Small New York Times, May 14, 2013


 * Thousands flee Syrian city of Banias fearing new 'massacre' Associated Press, 4 May 2013


 * A report on the city of Banias and the massacre of Ras al-Nabi' - 200 Martyrs (Arabic)
 * Estimated number of activists and parents death toll at more than 400 martyrs knowledge and documented nearly 160 dead and note that the system has to take many of the bodies within Brad to save the vegetables (?) before being allowed to approaching residents of the neighborhood. The names of them have been identified:

A big list of 173 victims follows, many lumped into groups. For example, it starts "Recep family: 1 - Martyr Iman Mostafa Ragab, 2 - Martyr Doaa Mostafa Ragab, 3 - Shahid Mostafa Ragab, 4 - / 21 - Shahid Ahmed Mostafa Ragab Sons (17 martyr)" A man and his 17 sons? Other entries (78-80) are given as "Zionist" ( ال صهيوني ) family. Other families: Yassin, Aladdin, Solomon, Taha, Jalul (17 members!)  "Scaife"   ال سكيف )) - Alzzouzo, Hussein, etc. Under "ال المصري" (trans: "the Egyptian") are entries 85-173, various ones like "Martyr Issa Turk," "Shaheed Mohamed Abdel Rahman Suleiman and his wife and three children Abdel-Rahman and sentenced Aisha," and for 151-164, "Martyr Issa marble with eight bodies Kano close to him did not know of deformation in addition to the five young people is not recognized them and found shackled hands and with them one Alqrabat (light) near the from Ismail marble shop." --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:54, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Baby girl with burnt feet
There are several pictures of this girl. Some with charred feet, later ones show her lined up under the tree utility pole with only stumps left. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Dear Jesus... dignity revolution? Can't even use any kind of blur or anything? I know she's a baby, but ... wow, legs like burnt matchsticks, while alive, perhaps on purpose, or quite like in the chaos of things blowing up in populated areas. WIll check the NYT article that describes her. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The baby outside in the pile of bodies for two days. Who took this photo of her on a carpet and when? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * May 3, no later. Is that early? I'm vague on this second massacre(s). Yasmeen's sources are very informed, as if they're embedded with the angel of death's own unit there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Pile of bodies in courtyard
The SOHR photo (published earlier on May 8th by Syrian Revolution Digest, and here on May 5th and May 4th) of the pile is the earliest, taken at around noon. It is possible this photo is taken by the perpetrators of the massacre.

Another photo (published earlier) shows the photo some two hours hours later. There is no movement in most of the bodies, confirming they are indeed dead and not acting out a massacre for the cameras. The girl in the red "28" shirt has been slightly moved. She is later seen lined up next to the pole. The woman in a black dress with a blue face has disappeared. The boy in a striped red shirt, originally lying on top of her, has been thrown further back in the pile. The body shows rigor mortis as his stretched arm is still in the same position.

I do not think the people died or were killed in situ. There is no blood, no bullet holes on bodies or on walls. No apparent cause of death. More likely the bodies were dumped on the spot after death. The most likely explanation is that the people suffocated in a fire. The case has thus similarities with the alleged Aqrab Massacre. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * On the right, bleeding through the back, a row of splatters. Other bullet holes, but I suspect it was a pre-massacre home assault. Many were from this home, but other brought to maximize the pile. Shabiha buried these people in secret, I think it's said, but only after rebels got photos of the whole pile. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

continued... The way the bodies are entangled is a mystery. Most likely they were dropped from a roof or balcony above the spot. In fact, my cache of photos has two photos filmed from above. (One of them is here in the Syrian Revolution Digest post.) The photos from above, showing the 2 o'clock configuration, show the boy in the striped red shirt and the blue-faced woman on top of the pile, highly entangled with other bodies. It is as if the woman had been pulled from the pile in the noon picture. This would mean that the SOHR noon photo would have to be taken a day later.
 * Possible, but a combo of killed there, tossed from a truck, and dragged into place might also explain it. But tossing into a pile, pain in the ass it might be, does have a sick appeal I could see such beasts going for. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Also of interest is that the photos from show physical wounds. The men have some blood stains, another woman has her face slit in halve, most likely with a saber. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Horrible shit there. I agree, maybe a an axe remove part of that poor woman's face, leaving her with that shocked gasp for a bit. In the SOHR photo, is that girl in the foreground in 28 missing her right hand and trailing ash? Are those other ash trails on the grass by her? Also in the center, apparent young adult male,looks like a sliced throat from this angle, but the above view clarifies that's an illusion. Numerous gashed heads, greater barbarity than at Houla. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

This video, published May 3rd, shows that same family dead, at night, possible inside their house in the same pile, but in yet another arrangement. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

This set of photos is also taken at noon on the second day. The Red Crescent is present, clearing the pile of bodies. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:17, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Videos
I am sorry for not linking to my playlist earlier:
 * Banias - al Beida, Syria - May 2013
 * (The list is totally unsorted, most likely with many duplicates. It now has 47 videos.)
 * Will check this. I finally scanned and found I think most of them myself. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

There are two videos (one in two different lengths) of dead families filmed at night with flashlights. One is the well known family in the pile, filmed outside. The other family is filmed inside in their home. The cause of death is mystery. Could be suffocation. It may be that this family has the three dead girls shown in photos. One of the girls in the bed has a long cut on her arm. No blood, could have been inflicted post mortem. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Ugliest massacres between Naseer in Beida c village 2 + + +18
 * Interesting. Them all dying just sitting there, so many, makes a bit more sense with inescapable gas. And there are some very bloody injuries, but many others as you point out not bleeding. Not sure how long a body has to be dead to not bleed from a cut. A head-shot, of course, will be bloody no matter what. I see small hole in the neck (0:37), larger hole in the jaw (0:45) in the jaw and under the chin, deep shoulder gash and two elbow injuries (0:55), all fairly visible and non-bloody. There's a pregnant woman, not at the moment cut open. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not know if this daytime video is from the same house. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:37, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Banias massacre in a house in the village of al-Bayda 05/02/2013
 * Wrong link, but it has two women, 2-3 kids ... I think it's probably al-Bayda. Always gender-segregated, these massacres. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Yet another dead family on video: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:45, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Massacre بنياس in Syria 05.03.2013

His video also claims to be from the same place. Dead men wrapped in carpets. MAGGOT WARNING!!!
 * Cham Banias spring Ras massacre against civilians committed by the forces of order 6 5 2013 Warning very tough video c 1

Uploaded May 12:
 * 7 5 Baniyas Massacre Ugarit Banias, the fourth division of the army kills women c 1 +teeth Allahu Akbar!

World Reaction

 * Assad will surely pay price of Banias massacre: Turkish PM
 * Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has addressed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad from Ankara after a massacre of civilians by Syrian regime forces in Banias, saying “you will definitely pay the price for this.” “You will pay the price very heavily for your show of strength on little babies, which you did not show to others. The moans of these children that reach the skies will bring divine revenge onto you,” Erdoğan said in the closing speech of a Justice and Development Party's (AK Party) consultation meeting on Sunday. “We also have the responsibility of…Damascus, Hama, Aleppo and Homs on our shoulders and not just of Iğdır, Hakkari, Van, Sinop, Diyarbakır or İstanbul,” Erdoğan noted, addressing AKP members. “We have a responsibility to those victims who were brutally killed in Syria, most of them children and women,” Erdoğan said.


 * Reuters, May 16:
 * A video issued on Wednesday from the northern province of Raqqa, which is controlled by Islamist rebels, showed three blindfolded men sitting on the curb of a central roundabout before being shot in the head with a pistol. A man speaking in the video said the executions were revenge for killings in the coastal town of Banias two weeks ago.

Same victims: ”We respond to the criminal Bashar who is killing Sunnis everywhere,” the man with the megaphone said. “Now we decided to come close to God by killing those Alawites…” (ABC News)


 * Chicago Syrians Host ‘Die-In’ to Protest Banyas Massacre
 * “We felt the need to raise awareness about potential genocide taking place in Syria,” said Kenan Rahmani, the ‘die-in’ organizer and board member of the Syrian American Council, the nation’s largest Syrian American advocacy group. “Entire families were executed by Assad forces in Banyas, in an area where there were no rebel fighters, simply because they were Sunni Muslims living peacefully in a predominantly Alawite governorate. According to eyewitnesses we are in contact with, the actual death toll is over 1400, with dozens of women and children left in the streets after being stabbed, raped, and burned.”

(On genocide, it was reported on May 14, some 40% of the app. 100,000 people killed so far (41,000) are Alawites.)--Caustic Logic (talk) 00:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Timeline?
I believe the massacre happened on May 2, 2013. This rebel video (and this) shows the bodies outside, at dark, in heavy rain. Weather history for Banias, Syria shows it was raining at 11 pm on May 2nd. There was no rain or even clouds in the following days.

There are two sets of photographs of the bodies. One set shows the bodies around noon, with Red Crescent workers moving and removing the bodies. Another set, taken some two hours later in the day, shows the undisturbed pile. It is my understanding that the body removal happened on May 4th. (I though I had a link to a photo published on that day.) Except for the movement of three bodies, the the two sets are largely consistent. I believe the nighttime video shows some of the bodies in positions that are inconsistent with either of the two daytime photo sets, necessitating that video is was shot on the night between the 2nd and the 3rd.

Rebel sources claim that Ras Al-Naba' was attacked by security forces on May 3rd. If the massacre happened on May 2nd, it would undermine rebel claims it was executed by "regime" forces. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Rain on the [cusp?] between the 2nd and 3rd but not the 3rd and 4th? Oohh... In fact, some sources are saying it only started on the 4th, and continued for days, until they could start filming bodies on the 5th and 6th. NYT: "On May 4, shelling and gunfire began to hit Ras al-Nabeh. Abu Yehya, a resident, hid in his house with his wife and two children, who stayed quiet: “Their instincts took over.” Two days later, he said, he emerged to find his neighbors, a family of 13, shot dead against a wall." I guess it's supposed to have been in waves. 1,500 killed at least, probably ten times that! Doesn't happen in a day. Some were apparently dead before May even began. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:05, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

In one of the videos the camera is held upside down. I helps a great deal if you rotate the video 180 degrees. I watched my downloaded copy using VLC and instructions found here. (The "Transform" function was on a different tab than in the example.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I analyzed the the videos: The first one is consistent with the photos from May 3rd, meaning it is most likely shot on the night between the 3rd and the 4th. I may be wrong about the rain; what sounds like heavy rain may be water pouring down the stairs. There is a flow of water even on the May 4th photos. The second video is inconsistent with both photosets. What is missing are the two blankets. We can see the faces of two women that are not revealed in any the photographs. The girl in the Red "18" shirt is in yet another position. Although the girl moves between May 3rd and 4th the positions are somewhat similar and inconsistent with the video. The video is from before the photosets, meaning from the night after May 2nd. On the video there seems to be rain dropping on the leftmost girl's bloody face. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed -there could be rain, but quiet if so, and the pouring water is the same "runoff" we'd see all day long, pouring in the sun. I wonder if there was a burst water main a little ways uphill, or something like that. Apparently not the big leadwe thought it might be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I really wonder who posted this photo of the baby with burnt feet on the web on May 4th. The baby is lying inside on a carpet with burnt feet still in place. The baby was later thrown into the pile outside and never again photographed with the burnt stumps.
 * That is a good question. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Could this be the first post: 4:29 AM (EET?)- 4 May 2013 by @yasmeenmobayed -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Could be. This is what I thought put it on the 3rd (was I totally wrong, or didn't a few things say that?). Because on my end the date says 6:29 PM - 3 May 13. So apparently it shows your local time. So, like what, 4 or 5:29 AM Syria time? --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

This rebel post, titled [http://www.therevoltingsyrian.com/post/49568923624/the-massacre-of-baniyas-tartous-syria-contd The Massacre of Baniyas, Tartous (Syria) .. Cont’d] is dated "May 2". The linked YouTube videos are from May 3rd. (Some more here.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

One of the "May 3rd" photos posted at 04-05-2013 15:45 pm (Spamfilter: http://www . gulfup . com/?TB8VZ0) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2013 (UTC)