Talk:Ishtabraq Massacre

Covering the Coverage
First, of course, we're a bit late, just now pegging down a massacre or two that happened over a month ago. But part of the reason we didn't see it already is this alleged horrific war crime never made the mainstream news, and also it seems like it made little splash in the alternative news. But looking back and forward, a bit, I'm curious what has been said and not and by who, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Source of "Hundreds of rockets, holding chemical substances fell down in Ishtabraq, prevented them from breathing, because of their resistance and facing the assault." ?


 * Sounds a bit propaganda to me. Nobody I know of has chemical rockets (122? 107?) in the country. Other missiles? Certainly not helicopters for hundreds? --Charles Wood (talk) 11:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * What? Bashair 3 isn't it, that hit Khan al-Assal? JaN, smelled like chlorine, tests say included sarin, killed 30. Little rockets, locally made- now maybe re-supplied in all kinds of ways ... somehow, having hundred available to clear an Alawite town that was too close for comfort, might be worth it. The report is real heavy on propaganda, but mainly it's in the political rhetoric ("Turkish forces," they call the terrorists). The attack details could be a separate class of info, however, that's not really axaggerated at all. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The source was, they said, the people who got out. "Hundreds" could just be an honest exaggeration - chemical rockets coming down in the tens or dozens would be alarming, and might seem like "hundreds." The point is were there any? I'm inclined to believe the reports. It makes sense from a wildlife management perspective they seem to take with non-Sunnis. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

SOHR
From what I've seen, they reported on some 200 people taken hostage, but did not get any reports from their activist network about any massacre. I or maybe someone else will look into any follow-up they have or don't have. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

VDC
It's not immediately clear whether or not the opposition VDC records a version of either alleged massacre. There's certainly nothing like what's described by the sources who do mention it. But some portion of it might be reflected in their listings of people killed by "warplane shelling" (but which could really be anything)
 * April 25 Idlib civilian deaths - 34 One entry stands in for 23 people "found" by JaN executed 'by fleeing loyalists' in the besieged National Hospital complex (see here) otherwise exclusively killed by air force bombs, it says. A couple in Termala, and mostly in "Jisr Shagour." If they did list any massacred Alawi, they may not want to list them as from a known Alawi village, but rather fudge the locale just a bit. Note 31 of the 33 bombing victims are listed as adult males, which sometimes means blank, or uses a young definition of adult. But this with male names suggests it wasn't families killed, no women or children, just adult men - either fighters from one side or another, or sex-segregated captives. 29 of these men were killed in Somaa square shelling, it says, in the city square. already addressed by state media as a massacre of 30+ separate from Ishtabraq. So this isn't that, but some other culling of men from a few families to die in the town square as the ISlamists took over. (SOHR also reported it that way) The others were killed by regime shelling in "Termala" where the regime used a less gender-specific bomb (and I guess the victims were older) - a man and his non-maiden-name wife, and another adult woman died there.
 * So long story short for April 25: no record of a massacre in Ishtabraq. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * April 26 = 54 killed by shelling (all but 1 of the "warplane" type). 37 in Darkoush (20 km north of JaS) (9 women, 28 men, no children killed by these bombs) and a few in "Joseph Village" (location?) and in "Jisr Shagour", both including some children - 5 boys, 1 girl total.


 * April 27 = 21 killed and mostly in a worse day for Joseph Village - 10 killed by those damn Assad jets: a man, a woman, 6 boys, 2 girls, no clear family pattern.


 * April 28 = 6 including two unidentified young guys were "Martyred in the military security massacre barrack in Jisr Shagour." Detention-torture, not shelling, but just found in the place where the fleeing guys used to massacre people.


 * April 29 = 26: more shelling, apparently unrelated as well. Primarily men, but some mixing.


 * April 30 = 6 one reported then, died earlier.


 * May 1 = 5


 * May 2 = 2 and it was getting too peaceful - one is the baby who died from chlorine, and whose dad supposedly died days later. And that's about the whole span this massacre would have happened. Alawite massacres are sometimes listed under "regime forces" for some reason, may check that too for good measure, but later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)