Talk:Slavyansk

Something coming up?
-- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Украина попытается выдать убитых карателями за "жертв террористов" (Ukraine try to pass punitive killed for "victims of terrorists") – Novorossiya, July 07

BREAKING: 8 unknow bodies found near morgue. All the usual allegations. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Human Rights Watch: Mass grave found in Ukraine – CNN / Anderson Cooper 360, July 24, 2014

American Kulak said... Also this, from a fanatically pro-Kiev anti-Russia source:
 * Did Strelkov's Men Really Execute 14 People in Slovyiansk?
 * Interesting piece. From the details there, I had to leave this comment:
 * Hmmm... less like Soviet purges, then, and more like the Libyans murdered mostly "for their cars," almost all black-skinned, killed by fleeing loyalists, executed and dumped around Tripoli in August 2011, as rebels overran it. Interesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Grave found

 * Mass grave in E. Ukraine: Terrorist torture or power cut-off in morgue? RT, July 26, 2014
 * The grave exhumation started on Thursday, conducted by authorities loyal to Kiev. They discovered 14 bodies - one of them female and the rest male, according to media reports.
 * Local residents told Human Rights Watch activist, Yulia Gorbunova, they had witnessed the exhumation of the grave on June 11. The city was in control of the militia at the time.
 * Bodies wrapped in cellophane were brought in by a truck in two runs and dumped in the grave, the witnesses said. Later in the day, the militias brought in two priests to the grave to conduct a burial prayer at it.
 * “We don’t really know who the people in this grave are and what happened to them. What is important is that there is an investigation,” Ole Solvang, researcher and security adviser for Human Rights Watch, told RT.
 * But Ukrainian officials didn’t even wait for the exhumation before saying the grave would produce evidence of atrocities committed by the militias.
 * “I met a police team of criminal investigators in Slavyansk. They discovered a grave of Slavyansk civilians tortured to death by the terrorists. There are dozens of them. They were cut and burned alive,” media presidential aide Yury Lutsenko said.

Slavyansk crucifixion

 * Part I: Investigating the Slavyansk Crucifixion – Gleb Bazov, August 9, 2014
 * Part II: Investigating the Slavyansk Crucifixion – Gleb Bazov, August 9, 2014


 * Thanks, Petri - interesting story I didn't know yet. I read part 1, but it loaded so slow I'll wait for part 2. It's commendable work, and I can see both sides. I wouldn't rule out that such a thing is possible - nailing a toddler to a bulletin board and cutting him to death in front of everyone, then dragging his mother behind a tank a few km. But ... as I've said for other stories, it has a high propaganda-to-plausibility ratio. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


 * One detail I decided to consider is the "bulletin board" the alleged witness cited, and another video tried to disprove. (sorry, names and links not handy) He pans around the square to show there is no bulletin board, before getting people to say that never happened (but then, "what else can they say?") But ... if she's an acknowledged local who would know if there was or wasn't one, and making a non-existent object so central to one's story would be dumb. For good measure I checked Google Maps and various photos, just to see if maybe there had been one now gone for that video. That would be chilling, but no clear luck. There are other areas it could be, under a tree or off to one side, not necessairly taking a central spot. In fact, it wouldn't. The gazebo is new but not new enough to be the infamous billboard's replacement. It'sthere on July 9.and in 2012, Google Earth view (but not 2010) FWIW:

The best guess for such a bulletin board could be this by the fountain:
 * general view
 * July 9 - Lenin's pedestal is a bulletin board, not nail-able
 * view 1
 * view 2 --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Undeniable abuses
This is another in a tradition of HRW essentially telling allied militants "don't be so blatant and open with your abuses. Keep them off camera, blame the other side, make it as awful as you want, and we'll find a way to believe you." The above (Mass Grave) might argue against that, but only time will tell if they ever really try to solve that or leave it at "murky," meaning they'd rather not say. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Abductions, lawlessness: Amnesty International slams pro-Kiev ‘vigilantes’ RT, AUgust 7. 2014


 * To be fair, that's AI who are, while also not unproblematic, still far more credible than that joke HRW. That report about the mad scumbag Lyashko is useful and they have put some pressure on the "authorities" to stop him. Meanwhile, HRW's latest piece is the usual outrageous crap. Headline: Ukraine: Insurgents Disrupt Medical Services Ambulance used to transport fighters, some HRW guy has seen. etc. And then in some random paragraph:
 * Human Rights Watch has also documented attacks on hospitals by explosive weapons that killed at least two medical staff. While the circumstances suggest Ukrainian armed forces launched some of these attacks, further investigation is needed to determine responsibility.
 * We will never know... and it's Putin's fault! ;o) --CE (talk) 12:33, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * oops, typing from memory w/o review. Thanks. Agreed on the differentiation (not to put too much weight on it - both are pretty dubious). This means HRW has not that I've seen called out Lyashko (sp?) and allies like that for undeniable abuses, while scrambling for crimes to pin on the other side. That adds some to the record. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)