File:Ukraine lost armor 23 July 2014 page 1.jpg


 * Source
 * Page 1: http://uploads.ru/7lcyI.jpg
 * Page 2: http://uploads.ru/OxaRe.jpg

Where does the militia get its weapons from

 * ''Alexander Rusin, Aug 21, 2014 at 6:50 PM

One of the main issues of our time - from where the Donbass militia (now more correctly called their army) receives weapons.

From the point of view of Ukrainian inhabitants, everything is simple: Russia supplies weapons. Because there is no one else.

But is there really no one else?

Let's start with small arms:


 * 1) In April, a key event in Donbass was the seizure of two buildings by activists of the independence movement - the administration building in Donetsk and the building of the Security Service in Lugansk. In the Donetsk administration there was no weapon, but in Lugansk - in the building of the Security Service, in weapons rooms a lot of small arms were kept down to machine guns. According to the participants in the events - the weapons were "on the battalion."
 * 2) In April, the local "Berkut" detachments moved to the side of the fighters for independence. With weapons or not, it is now difficult to say, but there were news that in Donetsk and Lugansk police departments and the militia leadership, not wishing to go over to the side of the rebels were taken over, wrote reports and handed over keys ... to the officers of the Berkut. How many trunks were there in the police departments of Donetsk and Lugansk? The total number of militia in these cities is several thousand employees. Theoretically, for each police officer in the storage rooms should be the trunk. Even if we consider that some police departments refused to hand over the keys to the insurgents or left Donetsk along with the weapon - in any case, the militia should have got at least a thousand machine guns.
 * 3) The events in Slavyansk began with the seizure of the police departments and the SBU. This is from a hundred to several hundred barrels.
 * 4) Military units in the territory of Donetsk and Lugansk regions. As events unfolded, many military units left the territory of the insurgent region, exporting weapons and ammunition. Many, but not all. Some parts were blocked, parents of soldiers came to the checkpoint and most of the servicemen left the units without weapons. How many weapons and ammunition were received in the warehouses of the units that the militiamen were able to block and occupy without a fight - I did not find the exact information. But each more or less serious military unit is a minimum of a battalion, in weapons rooms and in warehouses of which there should be several hundred barrels.

Now about Igla MANPADS, which the militia successfully used to shot down helicopters and even fighters of the Ukrainian army:
on March 10 in a number of media there were reports that during the unrest in Ukraine several dozens of MANPADS Igla were stolen from military arsenals.

It was back in March! In the first two weeks after the Maidan, in several regions of western Ukraine there were cases of seizures and looting of military depots. And from there, not only the MANPADS Igla disappeared, but also other weapons. And the fate of these weapons remained unknown. Could it have completely or partially reached the Donbas? Easily!

The stolen weapons could be sold elementary. Who plundered the military warehouses? Supporters of the Maidan? Not necessary. Supporters of the Maidan on February 21 already gained power, so the warehouses could be plundered both by opponents of the Maidan and by those who simply decided to take advantage of the situation to earn money by trading arms and arm themselves in an unsettled situation.

And where did the tanks come from?
The first 6 units of heavy equipment arrived in Slavyansk themselves. One of the subdivisions of the 25th Dnepropetrovsk airborne brigade moved to the side of the militia, this story was shown by all TV channels within a few days.

After that, in May, the new militant technicians did not see the militia. In early June, several monuments in the Donbas were removed from the pedestals: the IS-3 tank and two or three T-34 tanks. According to the available information, two tanks were able to start, and the IS-3 tank even participated in the attack on the Ukrainian block post. The museum exhibit could not shoot and was used simply as an armored vehicle.

The question arises: if Russia, as some believe, began delivering heavy weapons back in May, then why in June it was required to remove from the pedestals and start tanks of the Second World War?

And now - the most interesting:
By the end of June, the arsenal of heavy equipment of the militia began to grow rapidly. It would seem that Russia has certainly entered the game. Because tanks and artillery began to emerge in packs and in different places.

But even here we find our own, Ukrainian source:

Artyomovsk has a long-term storage warehouse on which there were several hundred (!) Units of heavy equipment of various types. Much of it was malfunctioning, or dismantled. But even a small fraction of this arsenal is a fairly large trophy.

According to the available information on the territory of Artemovsky warehouses, the militia captured 14 tanks, 12 infantry fighting vehicles, 7 automatic fire fighting vehicles, 9 MRSD Grad, and 10 mortars of 82 mm. Total - 42 units of heavy equipment, not counting mortars.

Here are the Grads that beat the camp of Ukrainian troops in Zelenopolye, here are the tanks that appeared in several places at once, that's artillery for you.

And what is important - the loss of equipment from Artemovsk warehouses on 20.06 was confirmed by the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine.
Document: page 1, page 2 (source).

In addition to the loss of equipment from the Artyomovsk warehouses, the document states:


 * 1) Donetsk, military unit 3003 national guard (Ukrainian internal troops) - 6 armored personnel carriers were lost. 27th of June.
 * 2) Kramatorsk, military unit A1126 (25th brigade) lost 6 mortars 82 mm, on June 27.
 * 3) Karlovka, Red Dawn - 4 T-64 tanks and 3 D-30 howitzers, lost the same 25th brigade, July 10-11.
 * 4) Donetsk, from the warehouses in / h А1402 lost 4 САУ 2С1 Carnation and 2 ZU-23-2, July 11.
 * 5) Artemovsk - 2 armored personnel carrier, lost the same 25th brigade, July 11.
 * 6) Lisichansk, storage warehouse for military personnel 3011 of the National Guard - 1 APC and 3 AT, July 11.
 * 7) Karlovka, the battalion "Dnepr" lost 2 armored personnel carriers, on July 13.
 * 8) Krasnodon, lost 4 T-64 tanks, 2 D-30 howitzers, 3 MRSD facilities Grad, July 13.
 * 9) Lugansk, lost 4 infantry fighting vehicles, July 13.
 * 10) Marinka, w / h ZSU lost 2 tanks T-64 and 2 infantry fighting vehicles, July 15.
 * 11) Rubizhnoye, the units of the Right sector lost 1 infantry fighting vehicle and 2 AT, on July 17.
 * 12) Artemovsk, Broad beam, Rozovka, the units of the national guard lost the tank T-64.

In total, the document lists losses of 25 T-64 tanks, 19 infantry fighting vehicles, 11 armored personnel carriers, 11 carnivores, 12 MLRS Grad, 5 D-30 howitzers, 16 82 mm mortars, 2 ZU-23-2, 5 ATs.

It's only for 1 month from June 20 to July 20!
Part of the losses - combat, this means the technique is destroyed or seriously damaged. But the part is exactly captured. At military depots, in military units, at checkpoints.

Note that a lot of equipment was lost by the 25th brigade, one of which subdivisions in the first days switched over to the side of the militia along with six units of armored vehicles. The document does not specify how the 25th Brigade was losing its equipment, but it is quite possible that in the same way as in Slavyansk - the method of moving to the side of the militia.

Several dozen units of heavy equipment, including Grads, were received by the militia directly from the Ukrainian army, as a result of the seizure of military units, warehouses (Artemovsk), as a result of the transfer of the Ukrainian military to the side of the militia (units of the 25th Brigade), as well as during successful attacks, at which demoralized reservists (who were called back in April for two-week training, and not for war) simply retreated from their positions, leaving equipment and ammunition.

And this was before the defeat of the South Cauldron, in which there remained up to a hundred trophies of various degrees of serviceability.

I do not know if this applies to the South Boiler, but there is a document on losses for the week of July 21-27:

12 tanks T-64, 14 infantry fighting vehicles, 7 infantry fighting vehicles, 7 MLRS Grad, 2 SAU Nona, 3 carnivores, 4 D-30 howitzers, 82 mm mortar, 10 ZU-23-2, 42 AT.

And another document on losses from July 28 to August 5:

10 T-64 tanks, 12 BMPs, 10 armored personnel carriers, 5 MLRS Grad, 2 SAU Nona, 1 SAU Carnation, 1 D-30 howitzer, 9 82 mm mortars, 3 ZU- 23-2, 33 AT.

Some of the equipment listed is likely lost in battle, that is, destroyed and can not be restored. But a part could be thrown when retreating. Numerous cases are known when the technology was deaf or was abandoned due to the lack of fuels and lubricants.

There are also rumors that some people directly from the Ukrainian command trade in machinery. So it or not, it's difficult to check, but there is a possibility. And it's not a fact that the command is trading, it can just transfer. If the soldiers go over to the militia side, then why can not the commanders pass?

The fact that the war is extremely controversial and not all, even in the Ukrainian army, consider it legitimate and fair - it's a fact. Moreover - officially there is no war, there is ATO. And the martial law, even within the region, no one introduced. And this means that the use of armed forces is illegal and is a violation of the Charter and the Oath. And therefore, strictly legally, even retreat from combat positions is not desertion. Cases were recorded when the commanders themselves escaped during the shelling, leaving the units to the mercy of fate, let alone talking about the soldiers.

In large-scale combat operations, involving dozens of battalions and hundreds of armored vehicles, there can not be no trophies at all. Something stalled, something stuck, something got into the environment, somewhere on the block-post at night the scouts of the enemy attacked and captured it. And so on.

Even with a full-fledged war between different states, there are no trophies. And when the war is internal, undeclared, unpopular, when reservists sent to the war were supposedly sent to the exercises, when half the Russian commanders were studying in the Soviet school, and now they are sent to fight with other Russians - what is it about?

Yes, I generally wonder how in the Ukrainian army there are still units that are ready to continue the war.

Personally, I'm not surprised by the technique of the militiamen, it surprises me that in the Ukrainian army something is still moving and shooting.
And the supply of equipment from Russia is purely technical, they are possible. Already almost two months the border between Russia and Donbass is not controlled by Kiev. Physically, you can move the technique. But why?

What is the point for Russia to supply militia with equipment, if there are already dozens of tanks, BMPs, armored personnel carriers, artillery and Grad installations.

The militia in recent times rather do not need technology, and crews who can manage it. Well-trained artillerymen, tankmen, mechanics.

Note that until mid-June, no one noticed the heavy equipment of the militia (except for 6 units in Slavyansk), it appeared closer to the end of June, immediately after large losses of equipment from the Ukrainian side began (which is important - confirmed by Kiev).

Until the middle of June, neither the supply of equipment from Russia, nor the equipment itself was seen. After mid-June - no one has documented any deliveries from Russia, but the "leakage" of equipment from the Ukrainian army - recorded and proportionally to these leaks began to appear the technique of the militias. And there were not large columns of new Russian tanks, and units of several units, corresponding to what is in the arsenal of Ukraine, are far from new and with numbers, which, if desired, can even be checked by lists from Ukrainian units.

And most importantly, is there any sense for Russia to supply the equipment in this situation?
Add to a few dozen techniques, which already have the militia several new tanks - in principle, the alignment of forces will not change, but the risk of "falling asleep" in the supply of technology is very large. To deliver a lot at once - dozens of units to significantly strengthen the militia - then the risk of "falling asleep" is approaching 100% and in return you can get large-scale arms supplies from NATO.

The situation develops in favor of the militia without any supplies of Russian equipment. If in May the ratio of the technique of the militia and the Ukrainian army was 1: 100, but now this ratio is about 1: 5, and only due to trophies. In a month, this ratio will probably be 1: 3 or even 1: 2, because the Ukrainian army in a not very successful (to put it mildly) offensive loses its weapons quickly enough. So is it worth it to intervene in this process? Is it worth to give the enemy unnecessary grounds for accusations of Russian participation, an additional reason for sanctions, an extra reason for the supply of NATO technology, an additional reason for Ukrainian mobilization?

In May, when each tank was important for the militia, each trunk - to supply the equipment made sense. But in May, no one recorded such deliveries.

In July and August - a couple or three or ten tanks for the militia will not do the weather.

In an interview with the Ukrainian military, there were indications that someone had seen the Russians T-90 somewhere, that there was a shelling of Ukrainian troops by Russia. Only are these data accurate and reliable? Determine the direction of the shelling, being under fire - it's not an easy task. I can assume that if you leave the trench or dugout to determine where the firing is from - it will be problematic to survive until the end of the firing. With evidence of Russian tanks in the Donbass - too many questions, I would like to see pictures, and better - video.

Where are the photographs from American satellites that were supposed to capture the movement of equipment across the border, where Ukrainian or American drones, from which, unlike satellites, even in cloudy weather can not hide the movement of tanks through the cordon? Where are the photos from Ukrainian activists?

Dozens of Ukrainian saboteurs, gunners work in Donetsk and Lugansk, there are also simple civil activists who support the Kyiv authorities - where are their photos and video of Russian technology in the Donbass? I saw - took out the phone, took it off, put it on the Internet - everything, ready certificate. Where is it?

But there are testimonies of Ukrainian losses.

=== The initiative group was not too lazy to create a whole site, which collected photos and video materials with evidence of Ukrainian losses - both in the form of destroyed equipment, and in the form of trophies. ===

The site address is lostarmour.info

At the moment, material is collected about 151 units destroyed and 182 units of lost (captured) armored vehicles.

182 units of tanks, BMD, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled guns, MLRS.

The lists indicate the place, time, reference to the source of information, photography, in some cases, the onboard number.

Look. Check.

And who still claims about the supply of equipment from Russia - imagine photos of at least a dozen Russian armored vehicles in the Donbass. Something new. More new than what is on the armament of the Ukrainian army. Something that crosses the border.

So far, the most interesting thing that could be removed on the Russian-Ukrainian border is the refugees heading to Russia; Outgoing Ukrainian military; as well as waiting for the passage of White Kamaz with humanitarian aid. All.

And the fact that it is fighting in the Donbas is local. Yours. Native. In general, it was strange to even think that in the 7 millionth region, which is about 1/6 of the country, there is no weapon, its military units, that no one from the Ukrainian army will go over to the militia, will not open arsenals, that in a country where a third of the population Russians, and two-thirds speak in everyday life in Russian - there is no technology for the Russian militia that defends the rights of the Russian people against Ukrainian nationalists who declared all the Russian invaders and promised to provide them with a gillet, shooting, eviction from the country or dispatch filtration camps.

But someone still believes that on the ground, which for several centuries was Russian and only 23 years old Ukrainian, there are no Russian people and Russian weapons, that a bunch of terrorists with weapons from Russia arranged a war.

However, faith by faith, and facts by facts.

The facts of losses of the Ukrainian army - 151 units destroyed and 182 units of lost armored vehicles - are. Documents from the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, confirming the loss of 173 units of heavy equipment for 1.5 months (from July 20 to August 5) - there are (one, two, three, four).

Do you have other data? If there is - please! The facts in the studio!

Borodai comment
БОРОДАЙ О ГИРКИНЕ (СТРЕЛКОВЕ) (Borodai about Girkin (Strelkov), youtube, 21 October, 2017
 * Q:In Artemovsk, those guns, mass stored, small firearms, almost 100,000 units, (Bezler?) and Strelkov often (talk about it) ...
 * A: Nobody really saw how many were stored there. Unknown. Maybe 'fish-out' from those storages was not at all the same as has been expected from them. We do not know as Ukraine was very actively trading, and we really have no idea how many units of what were really stored there. But something was there, yes, definitely. But as a result, those warehouses were never captured. They were located in mine pits. Strelkov gave me lengthy boring explanation why it was totally impossible to do. I do not have, in this particular instance, a reason not to trust his word here.
 * (Borodai and Strelkov had a falling-out, the interview overall is very critical of Strelkov)