Talk:The Killing of Yassin Baqoush

Page Dedication
I started this page when I decided I like Mr. Baqoush, upon seeing pictures of him. I get the feeling he "kept it real." I've never seen any of his films or TV shows, or anything like that, but I start this investigation with the greatest respect for the man caught, like so many millions of others, in the crossfire of this two-year sick spell for Syria. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Erm, sorry. A little awkward and pretentious. But it's on record now and, it seems, getting a fair number of views. Bio and thoughts below, to be filled in later. Between, the more pressing investigation. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Death Images: Mutilation Confirmed
Building off the respect part, a try at the truth is an important sign of that. So is not using the victim's pained face for shock value. But this is an area where important visual evidence crosses over into things you'd normally not show, for taste reasons. But I have two frames that show, both confirming both details, that hole under the chin, and his clearly sliced-off lower lip. (first video, 0:36 and 0:52) Upper lip and nose not totall clear - apparently present, the former covered in blood from the latter (?) But a lip isn't usually torn off from either an RPG or a mortar. That would be from someone up-close, with a knife, who, for whatever reason had come to hate the guy's big, famous lips. So ... I ask for guidance, from CE mainly, on how to handle these. And her, or Petri, or anyone, if I'm maybe wrong here. It happens. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:18, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * As I said before, I rarely see use in showing gory stills for documentation purposes when one can link to the video so people who feel like it can check for themselves. I didn't feel like it but watched it anyway - quite gruesome. Poor guy. Lip seems to be missing, not sure if mutilation has to be the cause. And as I said before - it's your choice. --CE (talk) 12:34, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * (was typing all this when you responded, and thanks) You know what? The videos are already up. I'll just refer to them. Some moved notes and some new ones. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * True, any of this could, hypothetically, be shelling injury. Things blowing up, it's chaotic, etc. That he's got a mechanical injury all across the nose and right cheek right near his lips makes it more plausible. A counter-thought's always good. But either way, we have his family, on better inspection, with doctors on hand, saying he was mutilated. There might be more we thankfully can't see (or unfortunately, from an investigative PoV). But I suspect they're right, and this it, or at least some of it. F*(#^%g terrorist, man. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Visible injury notes: injury to left ankle, left thumb mangled, lower lip sliced off (??), hole (bullet hole?) under the chin. Killed by shelling? Both sides seem to be wrong. Which was one was knowingly wrong? And was the lip thing body mutilation, or pre-death torture? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, considering video 3 (see below) alongside, it's not light reflecting. He has white, bone/cartilage I guess, showing at the tip of his nose. The right nostril is unclear, the left one, intact. Slicing off the nose is something Islamists sometimes do, but that doesn't quite look like it here. There's also a serious tear into his upper right cheek, and possibly some kind of trauma to the whole upper lip, all encased in dried blood. That adds ambiguity to the lower lip, but it isn't even left dangling. It's just gone. Both videos suggest a neat slice all along, no rough or torn edges. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

TRYING to think forensically, I can see one act causing the thumb, nose, and cheek injuries. The perps threaten to cut off his lips. They can't, because he's got his hands in the way, held tight, left hand on top, thumb across nose. They come down on his nose with whatever (rifle-butt? Backside of a heavy sword?), smash his thumb apart and scrape his face, pin his arms down in the shock, and start cutting. Then they shoot him. Why? Sheer terror and dread, I suspect. It sounds pretty crazy to normal people, but it's really not. They still hope for the Libya scenario. Who needs hearts and minds when you have NATO air cover, right? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

HOWEVER, I should note there's no need to call this. It could be from exploding shrapnel and the roof of the car slashing his face. But both the ankle injury and especially the puncture under the chin are harder to explain. So, "mutilation confirmed" should have a question mark (would that break too many links?). And than asnwer to the question should be "not for sure, but it's quite likely." And execution is suggested. And to be fair to previous sources, both sides, they didn't specify he was killed only BY the explosion. SANA, for example, said he was killed "after a mortar fired by terrorists struck his car..." And as noted elsewhere on this page, the exact sequence really isn't clear. SANA isn't gospel or anything. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Body Recovery video Notes
This refers to the second video listed below, death video 2. It shows Mr. Baqoush laying dead by the curb, his burned car across the street, many meters away, driver's door flung open. What seems to be a wooden utility pole lays in front of the car, snapped in half, possibly related. From this and the injuries I propose: his car was hit and burst into flames. He managed to get out and start running to the left, towards those run-down walls, for cover. This might suggest the area to his right was open area, and under ... perpetrator .... control. He stopped running after the shot to the ankle, short of the curb. After that, he may have resisted someone on top of him, in a close-up attack. His right arm, and both, it seems, remain bent, hands either up or resting on his chest (unclear resolution) - it's easy to imagine he had been trying to push someone off before his body went limp. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Do they know yet? Rebels couldn't know who the regime targeted with the RPG. Documents on him proved that, which the rebels found upon recovery. In this video, they seem to be scared to go up close yet to this unknown body. A careful listen reveals no instance of Yassin Baqoush being named. So if he's an unknown nobody, why the dramatic film specifying where this is, careful to film from a distance? ("too far way to read his papers yet, so noooo idea who that is) One posting specifies in its title the army was "hampering" their body recovery, and hence the wait. It must allegedly be unseen snipers holding them back, although the cameramane seems to be fully exposed while filming, and rebels soon got the body anyway, besides the video and then more video. Not much for cover-up-enforcing snipers. And why specify the RPG attack they must've seen, but not the shot ankle, death struggle, and execution that should also have been observed to some degree? I have my guesses already for all these questions.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Time and Location
[moved from a bit above --CE (talk) 17:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)]

Time and Location: I'm not sure if this is early on Feb. 24 or late. It seems both cloudy and a bit before/after full daylight. Or just very, very cloudy. Video 2 specifies RPGs (by sound) and up-front "Mash Hay Al-Assali," Assali neighborhood, with the ubiquitous Mash still unclear ("dateline?" "testifying from?") Otherwise, we hear Yarmouk, where he lived. One spot there that could possibly explain the footage is here on Google Maps. Very southern corner of Yarmouk. He would've been driving east towards the edge of it, apparently. I don't think this is the spot, but it might be similar. Directions are pretty well unclear to me from light or other clues. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I meant to mention that I could not locate this Al-Assali or Asali even on Wikimapia. Some other videos give reference to it, but I can't yet pin it on the map, and check there for possible video matches, as I would prefer to do (or be able to - lack of time lately...). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I have been able to narrow Assali down to a few possible areas. Found two schematic maps showing the place ... this and that. South-southeast of Qadam with which it is often mentioned together. This video purports to show "Smoke rising above Qadam and Assali as a result of shelling on an area near the Barda factory". Found the Barda factory on wikimapia. So from this information I conclude that Assali is either the marked area surrounding the factory, which just has a questionmark as description, or it is (somewhere in?) the area named as Al Sbeneh just south of it, which would fit better with the marks on the schematic maps. Found no direct hits there, though. Anyway while not far from Yarmouk to the south-west, it's distinct, more rural and by the one map even outside the core city zone. --CE (talk) 17:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking again, I found that if the France24 map has placed Assali correctly it has to be inside what wikimapia labels as Qadam. And indeed, I found a domed spot there whose label translates to Maqam Alasali. So apparently Assali is the south-eastern part of the region labeled Qadam (maybe divided by the railway, although that spot is just west of it?) and separated from Yarmouk only through the "open space" area labeled as Jura. --CE (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC) - Additionally: In "similar places" of Maqam Alasali an Al-essaly is linked in 500m roughly southern distance, so yeah, there it is. --CE (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! That's some pretty thorough triangulation. I'm not seeing borders on that Wiki area, but it's checkable. I notice it leaves the corner I looked at as the closest part of Yarmouk that's almost in Assali. Finding the location, if we can, is important -if rebels insist on falsifying the location, it's another clue against them here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that label is just a point, not an area, therefore difficult to find. Not much in the video to identify, unfortunately. Just saw that one of the questionmark areas was edited 13 hours ago and now says Place free stationing army. South of the road from your spot to Assali. --CE (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I see that - between Qadam, Hajar-Aswad, maybe-Assali, and southwest Yarmouk, a patch of fields. The word order gets mixed up. The free and army are side-by-side, in the FSA sense: Al-Jeesh Hurrah. "Stationing" also comes out "concentration" once you split FSA onto its own line. By itself "تمركز" comes out "centralize." Anyway, and whoever put up that label, it's about where or quite near where Mr. Baqoush was killed, whichever report is more correct. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Car/poss impact point, red paint?, Mr. Baqoush. Roughly all to scale, carefully composited at actual video size. Further distance between than I thought. This will help set the location. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Location: Will be hard to pin down. We're looking at a wide street/small parking lot/something. Paved, but low-key. Very low, old buildings on one side, open space across suggested but not clear, and a small tree. Another spot I don't think is right, but more similar - here on GM, right by that factory. But GE images (Feb. 22, 2012) show differing facade details on the buildings - we'd see the open cargo doors of a warehouse in a trucking center of some kind. Rather, we seem to see the back sides of whatever buildings. Not confident we'll ever find it, but it is getting narrowed down. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The Car
Alright, so, let's take a look at his car. I don't care what model it is or anything, but it never hurts to know. It looks burnt, and is in fact still burning. No visible flames, but smoke rolls energetically from it at numerous points. Mr. Baquosh lays face-up on the pavement across the street, maybe ten meters off frame. We don't get an awesome view of the car, mostly due to the tree. But here, sharpened and enhanced a bit, we can see a little. The possible downward spike in the middle of the bent roof line might be tree interference. But the bent roof, bending down to that spot, can't be. Or is it bent? It's a subtle effect I'm seeing, really. But if that's right, is this more like an RPG in Assali, or a mortar strike in Yarmouk? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmm, given the sideline and the passenger cabin my first intuitive guess was an 1980s Mercedes, like this. But if so, the whole radiator grill is missing. Could be something else, maybe a Peugeot or a Ford, but I would definitely say 80s upper-size European limousine and likely something is missing up front. --CE (talk) 13:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm no car person. But limousine to me means long, three or more windows down the side. It's hard to be sure at this angle (the reason for the angle?) but it doesn't seem to be long. Either way, a driver is a possible person, just from precedent (he was being driven on Jan. 27). Either killed (elsewhere), etc. or he was driving himself. Possible. Hey ... it his the same car from the other video, or another one? FWIW. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not the same car, checked that already. The car in the checkpoint video is some crappy little recent car, while this one here is definitely not recent. Just look how thin the frame of the open door is, they don't build stuff like that anymore, even in the region. And as to limousine - think small, this is Europe ;o) See linked pic, it just means the form. I think driving an 80s Mercedes-Benz would be very fitting for an old, excentric actor. If you sell one here, it's almost certain that it will be an Arab who turns out to be willing to pay the most, it's a status symbol down there. Thinking about it, it's very likely that everyone in his quarter knew who's approaching if they saw the car, even if it's not an MB. --CE (talk) 13:43, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Videos

 * Death Video 1- Face and ID cards, 0:54:
 * دمشق العسالي24 2 2013الممثل السوري ياسين بقوش جثة هامدة بعد اطلاق عصابات الاسد قذيفة اربجي على سيارته في حي العسالي (version linked to by the LCC - original posting? Good quality. Channel South Damascus posted it: they seem to either own that logo, or reupload an awful lot of videos from the people who own it.) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Actor Yassin Bakoush killed by regime attack-Syria, posted by shujah4ever on Feb. 25. Bad resolution.
 * دمشق العسالي الممثل السوري ياسين بقوش جثة هامدة (better resolution ... possible original? Posted by "abuabdo khatib," "Network News Free Syrian Army." Facebook page it links to already no longer works. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * good resolution, Al-Arabiya stamp


 * Death Video 2 - Found dead on the road, 0:34)
 * لحظة اكتشاف جثة الفنان ياسين بقوش على الارض Published by mkatib89 Feb. 25
 * جثة الشهيد ياسين بقوش قبل التمكن من سحبها
 * العسالي :جثة الشهيد ياسين بقوش قبل التمكن من سحبها Stabilized
 * قتلوا الشهيد الفنان ياسين بقوش مرتين!!! By Shaamnews555 -viewing the original posting? The original, presumably by the owners of that logo, will be of some interest. No location yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * دمشق العسالي 24 2 2013عدم تمكن عناصر الجيش الحر سحب جثة الشهيد ياسين بقوش بسبب اطلاق القناص الاسدي النار عليه Channelsouth Damascus posting. Possible logo owners and original uploaders. "Damascus Alasali 24 2 2013 could not free elements of the army pull the body of the martyr Yassin Bakosh because of sniper fire Asadi shot." --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Death Video 3 - Face with better lighting/detail, indoors (0:15)
 * شام دمشق مخيم اليرموك الشهيد الممثل ياسين بقوش 24 2 2013 تحذير قاسي Islam


 * Rebel Checkpoint Video, 0:44:
 * Syria Comedian Actor Yassin Baqoush Respected by Rebel Fighters 2-24-13
 * Comment beneath confirms my suspicion: making it look same day is bad form, actually, as well as apparently not true.
 * This interview between the actor and the FSA was a month ago which shows how much the rebels respect him so much. He was killed by Bashar's slaves after a month of this interview because the artist supports﻿ the Syrian revolution.
 * Cited: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgpwYDyl4-M - January 27


 * ياسين بقوش بين الجيش الحر قبل شهر من استشهاده Published by Ziza19841 Feb. 24

"Funeral full body Representative Yassin Bakosh in Damascus" Name in Arabic: ياسين بقوش
 * Funeral, Feb. 26 (2:02)
 * التشييع الكامل لجثمان الممثل ياسين بقوش في دمشق 26-02-2013 Published by Ziza19841 on Feb. 26


 * (SANA?) Report


 * Alddounia - ياسين بقوش جسد يغادر وبسمة تزرع في القلب Interviews! (Arabic)

Rebels in Yarmouk
The status of the fighting in the Yarmouk district (and perhaps Asali, for that matter) might be of interest here. The situation on January 27, when the check-point video was made, is of interest, as well as the days before and including Feb. 24. Other days before, between, and after these might also be of interest. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

After Feb. 24
One week after Baqoush's mysterious killing, on or around March 2, rebel forces publicly hanged two civilans in Yarmouk. Their crime, duly convicted of course, working with the regime, helping foil a previous rebel occupation by helping direct attacks on their hideouts. SOHR reported, March 2 on Facebook (no link handy) and March 3 on their main site (with a chilling photo on both postings):
 * Damascus province: A rebel battalion executed 2 civilians in the Mukhayam al-Yarmouk (Yarmouk camp). The men were hanged from trees in the Filastin round point of al-Yarmouk camp. Rebels attempted to justify this by accusing the men of coordinating with the Syrian government and of placing chips that directed regime bombardment a week earlier.

Again, "a week earlier" is at about the time of Baqoush's killing. The need to bombard suggests, as I think other things will, a strong rebel presence in Yarmouk then, since chased away, then come back to punish those who helped in the chasing. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:43, 6 March 2013 (UTC) and edits --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In case it matters, the hanging was "in the Filastin round point". That would seem to be here: دوار فلسطين - Palestine round. Right on a main road, between districts. That's brazen. And for rebel presence in general, as CE pointed out above, there's an area right between Yarmouk and what might be Al-Assali, currently labeled, in Arabic, "place of concentration for Free Army," common shorthand for FSA rebel forces. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:23, 10 March 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Baqoush Bio/Background
forthcoming

Medal of Merit
Today Assad issued a decree post-hum granting the "Syrian Medal of Merit of excellence degree" to Baqoush. Syrian TV briefly reports in English. Again they say it was inside Yarmouk in front of his house. At 1:44 into the video. Do they say "before his house in an alley of Yarmouk refugee camp" or is the italic some other description I can't understand? --CE (talk) 00:36, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent add. They don't say alley/vacant lot at all. But he's got to have a bit nicer home than what we see here. Maybe he was killed elsewhere and put here? I'm wondering too if he was killed right after the mortar hit, or if that too was done after the move, if there was one. That is, what do the authorities really know, and what are they deducing? --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I meant to ask if you hear the same as I do or what do they actually say at 1:44 in the video? ... something Yarmouk refugee camp ... Also, as to placement, I wonder how they identified him in the video with the car, from that distance? I mean he had quite the face, but lying on the street from so far away? There's someone in the background saying his name, not in speculating tone but as a fact. As if he had already taken a closer look. Also, the video showing him mutilated is in the dark, while the car video is not. Hmm. Also looked again at a possible place for the car video but there just isn't enough information. Although there are not many places inside the "piece of cake" of Yarmouk that would fit, because of the dense and mostly several stories buildings, which is an information. Your place in the very south-west is one of the few, but certainly nothing we could build upon. Would really like to crack this, especially having seen what they did to "The yellow man of Aleppo" who apparently got away much more luckily, almost harmless, but which shows how these creeps feel for people like the two of them. --CE (talk) 02:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The audi comment: I hear "...hit his car, before his house in the Yarmouk refugee camp." The syllables for "in the Yarmouk" are garbled, like "in Liyetmouk", but not enough of them to say anything more than that. Pretty sure. They didn't identify him, I thought. I listened for his name-didn't hear the narrator say it. The video title, they'd say, was added later after they realized. But if a background person knows and says it while the narrator doesn't ... that'd be interesting. And yeah, at 0:22 something that could be Yassin Bakoush is uttered in the background. Someone should boost that audio and then translate it. Just noticed too the harmonics/chanting - possible timeline clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)