Talk:Houla massacre

Timeline Problems: May 24, Anyone?
I don't invite this wrinkle, but it can't be ignored. It promises headaches and raises many questions. Petri has run several of the video under recent study through Media Info (see here. Will check myself soon if I still have Media Info. According to all we've heard, the massacre started shortly after the first rebel attack of the day, around 2 PM on May 25. So all the following time stamps would be problematic: (scene is the one described as Houla:Victims) Different accounts, media info glitches hypothetically possible, but unlikely. D comes after C, but E is the same as C and comes before D, so clearly some are copy/download times, which suggests it was not only filmed but being shared by eight hours before the violence reportedly even began. So why does "Arifah" not mention that? Or any of the others? Buildings and apparently fields were burning, rockets/bazookas were firing, and the security posts only got overrun the next day? Etc. --Caustic Logic 11:15, 14 October 2012 (EST)
 * A: Taldou burning UTC 2012-05-24 17:13:19 (visual - near sunset, 5:13 could be it)
 * B: four dead men picked up off the street, bazooka firing rebel nearby - don't have the raw video, can't tell the filming time/day (visual: around 6:15PM) but it seems to before the following:
 * C: those bodies in a hospital/clinic UTC 2012-05-24 20:52:52
 * D: bodies in morgue or home, including the four above UTC 2012-05-25 06:35:09 (visual: N/A, possibly dark out - maybe early morning)
 * E: another version of same UTC 2012-05-24 20:34:25 (or maybe the previous night?)


 * (Copied over, possibly the answer) Update: I checked the timestamp of one video I had uploaded to YouTube. The timestamp was about 24h before the upload. I asked YouTube to stabilize the video, so the wrong time stamp may be related to the stabilizing feature. -- Petri Krohn 11:02, 14 October 2012 (EST)

--Caustic Logic 11:26, 14 October 2012 (EST)
 * Kind of confusing, must look deeper before forming an opinion - maybe Petri has already delivered the answer. Anyway, we still have that unstarted "Earlier Houla massacres" article ... I'm not aware of any but could be a good time to explore ... maybe they reused footage and made sure it was available when "the news" broke. Watched the Tarpley interview our "friend" over at the forum posted ... take a look at 5:40 and the following seconds. Isn't that Taldou, Main Street burning? That interview is from November 2011. --CE 23:16, 14 October 2012 (EST)
 * All other clues point to May 25, these video clues only suggest exactly 24 hours earlier, other videos have exactly that problem, so yeah... I'll skip the looking into it even and presume a glitch of some sort. Time is scarce. As for earlier Houla massacres, no, this would be the same one/an early portion of it, if there was anything but Media Info saying so. That page idea, never spelled out, was for previous massacres there. There's at least one, with that little kid wearing the national colors wristband. Late March or earlyApril, not sorted out, but not part of the 'Houla massacre' as sometimes presented. And there could be other such incidents, and so the plural form. --Caustic Logic 23:21, 14 October 2012 (EST)

Sources and opinion
This link may contain useful analysis: -- Petri Krohn 09:28, 24 August 2012 (EST)
 * Syria’s ‘false flag’ terrorism, Houla and the United Nations – Tim Anderson, August 23, 2012


 * I found this on YouTube in Arabic commented on it some place else. Did not notice I had already linked to this here. I have not watched this yet, do not expect it to contain much useful. -- Petri Krohn 20:36, 7 October 2012 (EST)

Witness listing ideas
I've been creating a few dedicated witness pages, even though the main page suffers a bit. Sorry. In some case, like Maj. Raslan, and Ali, it helps to have the space to develop in detail.I suggest one too for "Arifah" (a knowledgeable woman) and whoever else seems to merit one. The main entry can have the main points even cited, but summarized quicker. I think images where applicable on the page and listings, so the all-listed page can safely be the main one, with the scholars among the thousands reading it clicking for the fuller explanations. Huh? --Caustic Logic 21:27, 19 September 2012 (EST)

Abdul Razzak Tlas
I understood that Abdul Razzak Tlas was said to be involved in the events. Here is something that may be ralated. -- Petri Krohn 14:23, 19 September 2012 (EST)
 * Terrorist Aide's Confessions about Infamous Abdul Razzak Tlas


 * An aide to Abdul Razzak Tlas, leader of the "Free Syrian Army" (FSA) Al Farouq Battalion and infamous Skype Ramadan masturbator, Salafi, and serial rapist, has confessed about some of the acts that he and his group were engaged in. Abdul Razzak Tlas's Al Farouq Battalion is responsible for some of the "great acts of freedom" such as detonating the Al Watani Hospital in Qusayr on the heads of its staff (doctors and nurses) and patients (civilians and military).


 * The name of the terrorist aide is Khawla Muhammad al-Masri.

P.S. – Do we need to start a page on the "infamous Skype Ramadan masturbator video" :-)


 * Hahaha, don't think so but can't hurt to link the "no nudity" version for reference. I call look-a-like, that's just a bit TOO good including the woman being an "Al-Arabiya presenter"... Page on the guy in general and/or the Farouq brigade including their alleged involvement in Houla could be useful, though. --CE 20:19, 19 September 2012 (EST)

This SPIEGEL report from March on the executioners and "burial brigade" of the Farouk brigade in Homs made some early "what, our rebels aren't model democrats?" waves: An Executioner for Syria's Rebels Tells His Story

This Al-Akhbar article from May is based on leaked SNC mails and shows how the Farouk brigade/battalion terrorized even other opposition groups so that they formed an alliance against them: Homs Opposition: Al Farouq Battalion is Killing Us

--CE 20:33, 19 September 2012 (EST)


 * No opinion yet. Sounds strange. should be good. Will wait. There should be a Manaf page, sounds like, and a page for the Tlass and Bakour and Hallak/Hassan types to be listed and sorted out, relative to Houla, and patterns teased out. --Caustic Logic 21:20, 19 September 2012 (EST)

Collection of several German mainstream media reports about the guy, stylized as hero and man of the people. Mostly from Baba Amr, likely early 2012, but also Ar Rastan. Material for pics. Al Farouq Syria Abdul Razzaq Tlass FSA عبد الرزاق طلاس --CE 23:31, 30 September 2012 (EST)


 * New TIME magazine article: Syria’s Up-and-Coming Rebels: Who Are the Farouq Brigades? --CE 06:49, 6 October 2012 (EST)

How did the rebels take possession of the town?
What is the rebel narrative on how they came into possession of the town? Did they attack and conquer it on May 25th? Or were they always in control? If so, why do we still see the government check point in the central intersection on May 27th? The APCs look intact. I would assume the FSA would have taken them into use if they had controlled the place for any longer period of time. -- Petri Krohn 10:32, 24 September 2012 (EST)
 * Well, by force, of course. It seems like their narrative is really vague. They seem to say they don't control itor certainly didn't take control that one day. But that city is messed up, halfway to where Sirte got, with no real explanation. The details emerging at street level views show it worst prior to early September, suggesting power struggles laving a ghost town. Alex Thomson's dispatch for CNN is a fascinating view of a government NOT in control of the area, no later than May 28. And a lot of that damage, building blown open, trees mowed down, etc. was done no later than May 26. The same time as the massacre. No explanation why the Shabiha would shoot up all the building and the arches around a security post the UN decided remained in government hands, and tear down whatever emblem there showed who was in charge. And that exact area is where the Al-Sayed were massacred, by the UN'HRC decision, by the government still in control right there. --Caustic Logic 13:38, 24 September 2012 (EST)

CE, you just added: "Videos dated September 12 show the southern outskirts of Taldou as ghost town and the National Hospital as a rebel base." FYI, I took a quick look at the videos there and it seems to be a rebel sympathizer with numerous videos from rebel field clinics. From that, my reading was 'the damn nat'l hospital is occupied by the regime, and so we have to rely on these filed clinics.' The Ghost town angle is interesting - it was empty by May 26, though, and something I just saw said the rebels had been trying to empty it previously. I think that's from you... We see then soldiers present and able to move, some, but not in control, getting pinned down by snipers. That ambiguity will make a place a ghost town, not any swift victory. The rebels didn't take control of Taldo on May 25, but they did apparently shatter government control. --Caustic Logic 18:10, 29 September 2012 (EST)
 * I read occupied as in Occupy Wallstreet, but you could be right about the hospital. Will formulate it a bit less definitive. The guy and his videos are seen in the French documentary as well. --CE 21:26, 29 September 2012 (EST)

It seems the only time the rebels were demonstrably in control of Taldou is on May 26-27th. Their true control only extends to the "Hoax Houla" fake square next to the new Qatari funded? Salafist? mosque at the edge of town.

Arabad bin Valid Battalion
When did this happen: al-Qaeda Battalion "liberates" main street? The video shows a burnt out 4-wheel APC on Main Street with Islamist celebrating on top of it. -- Petri Krohn 02:49, 2 October 2012 (EST)
 * Elements battalion Arabad Ben force and joy that Tsudhm after the liberation detachment of military security checkpoint in the Hula Taldou
 * Published on Jun 23, 2012 by Battalion Arabad bin valid


 * Batallion/Al-Qaeda link explanation? --Caustic Logic 08:24, 2 October 2012 (EST)

More here, uploaded July 9, 2012. Rebels takbir in front of Central Mosque. -- Petri Krohn 02:58, 2 October 2012 (EST) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FREE.H82 "Battalion Arabad bin force in the Hula"
 * Battalion Arabad bin valid checkpoint roundabout freedom in Hula Taldou after its liberation from gangs Assad


 * Army sniper positions around roundabout marked on Google Earth and uploaded to Facebook on May 16: "With army snipers stationed in Taldou dizziness freedom" + Water works + Main street (APC's visible)
 * Swearing in ceremony at the Mosque (which one) before May 8th.

P.S. – I am sorry guys for totally ignoring Houla until now. But I must say that you guys are loooosers – and I kick ass!!! -- Petri Krohn 03:16, 2 October 2012 (EST)


 * PAH! we just wanted to give you an opportunity to get more involved ... hahaha, kidding, excellent work, Petri! Will check later in depth. --CE 04:13, 2 October 2012 (EST)
 * Belated note: We do improve with Petri like wine improves with age! --Caustic Logic 20:01, 11 October 2012 (EST)


 * Can't access, have no facebook account, please save what you find there. --CE 04:25, 2 October 2012 (EST)

Who is the red-headed "witness" interviewed by Alex Thomson here? Is he the same red-head who is a leading member of the Brigade? -- Petri Krohn 08:19, 2 October 2012 (EST)

Clock tower videos
I found a whole collection of demonstration videos uploaded by fnnsyrianews (Flash News Network). They still dance around the clock tower effigy on their "Revolution Square" (now renamed "Martyrs' Square" I presume.) If they had control of town I would assume to see videos of the real clock tower. -- Petri Krohn 19:19, 30 September 2012 (EST)


 * FNN Syria Homs Houla Demonstration in solidarity with Aleppo 10 8 2012
 * FNN Syria Homs Houla Demonstration 19 8 2012
 * FNN Syria Homs Houla Friday demonstration 31 8 2012
 * FNN Syria Homs Houla Friday demonstration 14 9 2012

New satellite images
New to us. Huffington Post ran them shortly after. Better resoloution than Google Maps and current, May 25 and May 26 compared, two areas only, all north of center. The analysis is good. A few discoveries:
 * We were wrong to presume the big mosque was the mosque with the dead and the mass grave. Looks like the 'city mosque' and the burial site were by another clock tower further northwest. I tracked the locale down to here. The red roof to the northeast really helped. It matches the photo there with clocktower and power pole to the west, and the masses of people at the lot and the nearby mosque on the 26th.
 * The shelling damage they document is almost all along the main street. (weird rotation, nearly 90deg clockwise - the stretch shown is well north of the Qaws, just south of the roundabout. Why did the shells from distant artillery hit the same places that could also be hit by soldiers/Shabiha or rebels driving down the streets with rocket launchers and mortars?
 * And from the old satellite images, there may be a problem with the post-revel conquest graffiti - the clock tower at the big roundabout, as seen on Google Maps, already has the same block of black on its south face. I think this is the same imagery from February. Should have noticed that off the bat. Will update at some point. --Caustic Logic 18:10, 29 September 2012 (EST)
 * Interesting. At least they have clock towers in that ugly hellhole. --CE 21:26, 29 September 2012 (EST)
 * The clock tower is painted in this early demonstration: Free Syria. ...or this: Hula demonstrations Tldo Juma Glory 25 3 2011 Homs. -- Petri Krohn 01:56, 2 October 2012 (EST)

Taldou clocktower hoax
The Huffington Post story is a hoax! The story makes reference to the "town square", "City Mosque" and "clock tower", none of which exist, except maybe in rebel fantasy. The mosque is not the city mosque at the center of town, but a small mosque at the northern edge of town. (Built sometime between 2007 and 2010) The "square" is not the town square but a piece of waste land in the intersection of a side street and a dirt road, previously dominated by a power pylon. The clock tower is not, but an effigy, with a painted clock face eternally set to 11:06.

Every Syrian town has a clock tower, similar to the one in the central intersection of Taldou. It marks the symbolic center of town. Likewise, it is impossible for any named locations to have two clock towers. The rebel clock tower effigy is shown in the two satellite images from May 25 and May 26 provided to The Huffington Post by DigitalGlobe from its satellite. It is not visible in the Google Earth image from August 20th, 2010. It first appears in the image from February 22, 2012.

What seems to have happened is this. The revolutionaries and rebels have controlled a small part of town at the northern edge around the newly built mosque. They did did not have access to the center of town, guarded by the Army checkpoint at the clock tower. To compensate they set up an effigy of a clock tower at and intersection in their part of town, claiming symbolic ownership of the whole town. Any media outlet worthy of it name would have reported these circumstances when covering the story.

The hoax here is a deliberate attempt to manipulate the truth. The Huffington Post story relies on two analysts from the DigitalGlobe Analysis Center (manager Amy Opperman and vice president Stephen Wood). Any satellite image analyst would have noted that the location is not the town square and the clock tower is fake. (In fact I just did). The story deliberately omits these fact and portrays the location as central. The images are cut so as not to show the building density gravitating toward the true center.

I call this a conspiracy and a hoax. I do not know if this originates from DigitalGlobe or from Huffington Post. Whatever way, they should have done better and checked the facts on Google Earth.

The relation to the general pro intervention propaganda is this: From the images it is apparent that the revolutionaries have comfortably controlled this particular "town square" for some time. With the hoax they make the false claim that the rebels have always controlled Taldou. It gives support to the rebel narrative that the rebels were not the aggressors on May 25th attack, but the victims of a government attack. -- Petri Krohn 01:13, 30 September 2012 (EST)

P.S. – The clock tower square is displayed in the Houla Media Office Facebook page.


 * Very interesting. Yes, seen in that light the tower looks improvised. As it happens, not too long ago I tracked down some videos of recent demonstrations in Houla and posted links on the forum thread. I suspected back then that one shows the clock tower at the roundabout, but that was before we dissected the UN and Thomson videos, so I thought until now that it was in another part of Houla, not in Taldou. Just checked that video again, it definitely shows this "fake" clock tower - we see the power pylon and a facade with characteristic arches in the background to the left (also seen in photo): Video from August 19 --CE 03:13, 30 September 2012 (EST)


 * I've never heard of a one-clock-tower, one-center-of-town rule, or convention, but it makes some sense. This one is up on a concrete base and looks solidly enough built, but it doesn't look quite real. No clock on on it, and never was, at least on the visible side. Maybe it was installed in (2011? 202?) and awaiting its clock(s)? --Caustic Logic 09:14, 30 September 2012 (EST)
 * Also, a thought on the north side of town. It's nearest Al-Houla, which of course Taldou is not. (It's been called part of Houla, but I don't buy it). It was the Houla massacre because Houla activists reported it, the most local people, and they say it was an attack on them. They had a few friends in Taldou, and their small areas, but I think attackers came from the outside via south (from Homs or Rastan in a roundabout way), maybe northeast (Rastan) and northwest (FROM Houla, putting a different spin on "Houla massacre"). The fighting started north, the first expedition down Tripoli/Saad Road probably came from there, the bodies were brought back up. Sorry, some general thoughts I'm stating like a tactician's expertly adduced likelihoods. ;p --Caustic Logic 09:14, 30 September 2012 (EST)
 * The town northwest of Taldou is Kafr Laha, not Houla. Houla is the name for the conglomerate of settlements in that region, Taldou and Kafr Laha being part of it. At least that's my understanding. There has been some difficulty to locate Houla in the first place when the news broke, IIRC Google Maps labeled it wrongly. --CE 09:21, 30 September 2012 (EST)


 * Do I really need to explain the one clock tower rule? I need sleep, so you will just have to study these Wikipedia articles.
 * Milion, Cardo Maximus, Decumanus Maximus, Tetrapylon, Sceptre, Ceremonial mace.
 * Summa summarum: The Syrian clock tower symbolizes place like regalia symbolizes the power of the sovereign. Building your own hoax clock tower is tantamount to usurping local power. -- Petri Krohn 10:24, 30 September 2012 (EST)
 * P.S. – The hoax clock tower was not "installed". It is not "awaiting its clock" as clock towers have nothing to do with telling the time. In fact, it is as much a clock tower as the Tiananmen Goddess of Democracy was a statue. -- Petri Krohn 10:29, 30 September 2012 (EST)
 * Just throwing out some thoughts. I see what you're saying and I'm inclined to yield. Ideally I'll come back in a bit and read the links you provided and get more sure. I'm really not all that worldly a person. Another thought worth mentioning is it's odd how Thomson's Channel 4 video stops at the main roundabout, almost implying that was the end of the journey. Was he embarrassed that they kept driving after that, and willing to let the edit support what he saw as the rebels' attempted illusion? --Caustic Logic 12:41, 30 September 2012 (EST)

This is interesting: From Addounia TV, published on Jun 29, 2012 by TruthCommunication Someone notices a papier-mâché clock tower in Qatar. It is out of place as Qatar does not have Syria style clock towers. Preparation for another Houla hoax? -- Petri Krohn 10:56, 30 September 2012 (EST)
 * Syria Fake 'Homs Clock Tower' found in Doha, Qatar 11 06 2012
 * Yeah, that looks a bit like the one. Papier-mache or perhaps play-doh. :) Looks like actual wood, maybe even with moveable hands rather than painted on, but it clearly looks fake, and pretty similar to the one in question. This is strange though - why manufacture something like that in Qatar and import it? Could be made in any backyard in Syria. Were they staging scenes right there maybe? --Caustic Logic 12:41, 30 September 2012 (EST)

Petri: This should go on the front page, if it should. I could do it, but I think you're better positioned to explain it. I still thought clock towers were for clocks, so I'd need to do some catching up. I'm not even sure they were trying to act like they were in control of the town. In fact, I've seen them kind of denying control (on the 25th anyway) to leave the gov. in charge and thus plausibly guilty for the massacre. They have this whole people of Houla united thing, but ... maybe I need to revisit what's been said about this little square of theirs. --Caustic Logic 19:54, 1 October 2012 (EST)
 * To make it a hoax the satellite analysts must have been aware of the other (big) mosque and the real clock tower. We don't know if that's the case. It was us who (reasonably) assumed that this was where they collected and buried the dead. Definitely useful for figuring out the who-controlled-what-when question to know that their "central" occupied part was in the very north-west of the city. That's also not far from where the ANNA defector said the northern group attacking the roundabout checkpoint was gathering (as seen on the German-labeled scene images). --CE 20:39, 1 October 2012 (EST)

New scenery video
Some great footage here from the same spot Thomson was pinned down, I think. Calmer day, gov. control, no livelier. May 30 posted, good resolution. Froze up on me though. Shows the dead in that walkway outside the house...--Caustic Logic 21:37, 30 September 2012 (EST)

I have started collecting Taldou (تلدو‎) videos in a YouTube playlist: Houla & Taldou.

There is something relevant here. I have no idea what: -- Petri Krohn 01:29, 2 October 2012 (EST)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdCqIdJabzw


 * It was clamed this was artillery attack on rebels. In FaceTime the video shows rebel firing Rpg. -- Petri Krohn 08:25, 11 October 2012 (EST)
 * Thanks. See new discussion at Talk:Houla, May 25: Who Was in Control?. --Caustic Logic 20:01, 11 October 2012 (EST)


 * Interesting - right off, the messed up guy in yellow, I've seen him. Rocket blasted? I get to see him in situ here. High-res photo at the mosque (graphic) and hey... what does that blanket say? (also seen here on video) Will look more later... --Caustic Logic 08:24, 2 October 2012 (EST)


 * Am checking some vids right now as well. See victims page, found one of the dead procession, uploaded yesterday, this guy keeps uploading. --CE 01:43, 2 October 2012 (EST)

More: Summary: Bodies are in new mosque at revolution square. Meeting with UN at main "City Mosque". -- Petri Krohn 02:36, 2 October 2012 (EST)
 * Observers counted the Hula massacre victims in Syria
 * Hula Ahaddalnashtin describes what is happening and the constant bombardment 05/25/2012
 * Hula 1 Ahaddalnashtin describes what is happening and the constant bombardment 25/05/2012
 * Hula Zh observers access to the mosque 26-5.
 * Hula Martyrs horrific massacre 26.5.
 * Fresh Houla videos uploaded today (HD): Monther Hrfosh
 * May 25th

Houla Media Office
CE, Your link is to Flash News Network / fnnsyrianews, which uploads all kind of rebel videos.

The guy you are referring to is Monther Hrfosh / nontherful on YouTube. His signature feature is that he uploads all his videos in double, with second part lacking audio. He is better known as the Houla Media Office by the name of his Facebook page. The Houla Media Office is naturally the original source for the massacre stories.

Perhaps even more importantly he is also FREE.H82, or "كتيبة العرباض بن سارية في الحولة" (Battalion Arabad bin force in the Hula) on his second Facebook account. He also maintains the Battalions YouTube account at كتيبة العرباض بن سارية – In this video you see him taking part in the May 25th attack on "Assad gangsters." He also recorded the forming of the Battalion on his civil account already on May 4th. -- Petri Krohn 05:27, 2 October 2012 (EST)


 * Thanks, very interesting. Jeez. I noticed the habit of uploading the videos with the content twice, the second time without sound. A local media-savvy rebel, likely instructing Tlass and his cohorts about the local circumstances with the facebook stuff (thanks for saving). Videos of weeping people at the mass grave. This one, is this Maryam Al-Sayed? Maybe, maybe one of her relatives, she looks at least similar. She seems to list names of her lost ones, "Al-Sayed", "Al-Sayed", "Al-Sayed"... Gruesome. The last three videos he uploaded, 15 hours ago, are in the dark, titled somthing like "heaviest bombing". documents.sy reports today that 70 rebels in al-Houla were killed. It's a sick world. :o( --CE 06:56, 2 October 2012 (EST)


 * Great twist. Later. --Caustic Logic 08:24, 2 October 2012 (EST)

Whodunit?
Some subjective thoughts... -- Petri Krohn 08:42, 5 October 2012 (EST)