Talk:Maan Massacre, 2014

There are news coming in that Maan was "seized" again by Islamists as part of an offensive trying to cut supply roads today. SOHR says 25 NDF fighters were killed, the government talks of mainly women and children and a "massacre". SANA says 10 women were "massacred and their bodies mutilated". Pro-Assad TV journalist Alaa Ebrahim has published a list of "20 out of 60" names of people killed "by Al-Nusra" on facebook and linked a video with Islamic Front logo on twitter (which doesn't show much of use). --CE (talk) 02:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Death Toll
As of February 11, there's still no clear answer. First it was about 20 dead, being 20 NDF, then 20 NDF plus 20 civilians, then apparently 40 civilians plus the defenders. Most reports now have the 40 range singled out one way or another, but enough indicators point higher that it seems more likely - around 60 people of Syria killed in total. 62 is the best single guess at the moment. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * CNI (China) Feb 10 Syrian Rebel Attack Kills 42 Civilians: Army. But the article says "The general command of the Syrian army said Monday that the rebels' attack a day earlier against a town in the central province of Hama killed as many as 42 people," including military/NDF. While SANA's quote of the Army was clearer: 42 women, children and elderly people murdered in massacre by Jabhet al-Nusra in Maan, Hama
 * The General Command of the Army and Armed Forces said that 42 women, children and elderly people were murdered in a horrific massacre committed by Jabhet al Nusra terrorists in the village of Maan in Hama’s northern countryside on Sunday.


 * Syria 360: SANA reports, Feb. 11
 * Hama, (SANA) – With official and popular participation, victims of the Maan massacre which was committed by terrorists last Sunday were laid to rest. (number laid not mentioned)
 * Damascus, (SANA) The Cabinet denounced the massacre committed by terrorists against the town of Maan in Hama province which claimed the lives of 42 victims, mostly women and children. (suggests 42 total)


 * Los Angeles Times, Feb 10: Syria and rebels agree to extend rescue effort in city of Homs
 * The government delegation denounced the “massacre” by Al Qaeda-linked rebels of 42 civilians in the town of Maan in Hama province. The pro-opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said 25 people, most of them members of a militia loyal to the government, were killed when Islamic fighters overran the town in an attack with sectarian overtones. (SOHR position since updated)


 * London Southeast
 * "The number of those killed yesterday by the terrorist groups is over 50," al-Meqdad told reporters. The opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that 21 civilians had been killed in Ma'an - whose residents belong to President Bashar al-Assad's Alawite sect, seen as heretics by many Sunni Islamists - along with 20 pro-government militiamen.
 * Confronted with 41-42, it sounds like, he specified the total was well above that.


 * The list examined claims to name 20 (actually 21) of about 60 total victims.

Reported Victims
An initial List of 20 names out of 60 alleged victims was posted by Alaa Ebrahim on Facebook, Feb 9, and a text version was also posted by Jablah News Network. It's 21 victims actually (last entry split here). Google Translated:
 * And now is our response to the first list of the names of some of the martyrs of the massacre in Hama glitter (Maan) 02.09.2014 and the remaining names will be published as soon as received


 * 1) Martyr ruled ( ﺣﻜﻤﺖ = Hikmat) Kaddour
 * 2) F martyr Fatima Kaddour
 * 3) F Martyr important ( ﺍﻟﻬﺎﻡ = ??) Kaddour
 * 4) Martyr Ghassan Kaddour
 * 5) Martyr Karam Kaddour
 * 6) F Martyr Frish Kaddour
 * 7) Martyr Ali Kaddour
 * 8) Martyr Suad Kaddour
 * 9) F Martyr Riifah Kaddour
 * 10) Martyr Yassin Kaddour
 * 11) F Martyr Pros ( ﻣﺤﺎﺳﻦ = mhacn??) Kaddour
 * 12) Martyr Ali Saleh
 * 13) Martyr Ibrahim Nasser
 * 14) Martyr Fatoom Maihoub
 * 15) F Martyr and communication ( ﻭﺻﺎﻝ = Wessal) Nasser
 * 16) Shaheed Mohamed Ibrahim
 * 17) F Martyred Zarifa Poet ( ﺍﻟﺸﺎﻋﺮ = al-Sh...??)
 * 18) F Martyr Jewels ( ﺟﻮﺍﻫﺮ = ??) (family unclear?)
 * 19) Martyr Ayham Ibrahim
 * 20) Martyr Abotahir Tahir ,,,
 * 21) F ... and his wife, Um Haider

Clearly a Kaddour family was singled out, in this alleged incident. I forgot, not just names, but the form of "Shahid" shows gender. Those with the suffix in Arabic, marked F above. Nine out of 21, with at least 5 Kaddour women. There are also quite possible female Shabiha, FWIW. Some sign up last minute, perhaps. But not this many. This will include old women, girls, boys, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Mercy and glory and immortality to the martyrs


 * Tweet: "Abu Mousa refused to flee the house he lived in, that's where "rebels" found & killed him & his wife. #Maan #Syria pic.twitter.com/IBHBUHLTAU" --CE (talk) 21:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

VDC Maan Martyrs
Hm. Looking at the Center for Documentation of Violations database, there's this pattern to consider, which you can see with the Talk:Homs Massacres where the fact that some of the dead are called "Shabiha" (NDF/Local Committees/Lijan Shabiyya), their civilian family members and them and anyone rebels killed in this or that raid on a Christian or Alawite village, gets listed under "regime casualties," rank: civilian, if anywhere, rather than as "Martyrs." maybe they don't consider that a violation? I've wondered that before. Conversely, in that case and others (like the Latakia Massacres or see last link), rebel fighters do get reported to whatever degree, and listed as martyrs, including foreign Salafist ones killed in the course of committing a massacre.

That's alleged here. First reports said only Shabiha died, now maybe it was their families too. Looking at the current updates (Feb. 9-10, all martyrs from Hama province) this pattern seems to hold. No sign of any scale of massacre in Maan. And the "regime casualties" list stopped being added to on January 1. A scattered few were added in late December, one guy listed twice, then two "rank: civilian" regime forces from Idlib, dead on the 1st, and none added since. over a month on. Check it. Until that changes, there's no place to list the Alawite and Christian children, women, and elderly killed alongside related men considered "Shabiha" in alleged massacres like this. Below, their paltry martyr's list, closest things to documenting this. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

In nearby Soran (Souran on Wikimapia) several people, civilian and rebel, are listed as dying from shooting ad "detention - execution." on the 9th. Names of many dead: Qtait, Al-Omar. They do show a bigger yet massacre on the 8th, of people from Soran. Names: Ismael, Al-Sbaih, Qtait, Al-Nabhan. Many more dead in Jalama, including children and women, unidentified and half-identified field executed. There's the note: "Several civilians martyred in a massacre during the storming of the town by regime's forces." Location: on "old" Wikimpaia - near Kafr Zita, too far west to be (directly) related. Names: al-Saied, Al-Moshen. Kfar Zita and Soran saw lots of murky killing too in recent days as well. Someone's set Hama on fire as Homs chills somewhat and evacuates.

For people from Maan, this alone: Abdul Nour Bakour al-Husain, Non-Civilian. Adult - Male. From Hama, area: Maan. Died 2014-02-09 by shooting. Rank: FSA. Notes: Martyred during the clashes with the regime`s army forces in Hama suburbs. Not even necessarily in Ma'an, where there is a Sunni majority he might be from. Or maybe he just died there and it's mislabeled. Nearby, Morek: Ammar Aboud al-Sayed, Civilian, Adult - Male. From Morek, died 2014-02-09 by Warplane shelling. Video of the martyr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyUgnZ6DuxA (unwatched)

I'm not trying to catch them all, but here's a rebel fighter with Martyrdom location: Hama: Maan - Yosef Ahmad Bahjat Hassani Child-Male (looks just about 18, hit in the head with a good shot). Another killed there is Anas Mohammad Hasan Hassani, adult male. Must be big brother who talked Yosef into this? No image. Both are Rank: FSA, from Soran (worth checking other Soran ftalities then), with the note: "Martyred during the clashes with the regime`s army forces."

World Reaction

 * United Nations or Iloubnan.info: statement of UNSG Ban Ki Moon:
 * ''"The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms all violence against civilians and calls for the perpetrators of this massacre, and all other crimes in Syria, to be brought to justice," the statement said, adding that "such horrific incidents should be a reminder to all of the urgency of ending the conflict and launching a political transition towards a new Syria where all people and communities are guaranteed protection, rights and freedoms."

If Ban were the omnipotent voice of the West and its allies, this could easily read as a threat: "It's urgent that we press ahead with our regime change plans, and until that happens, massacres like this will continue. Yadda yadda justice." Meanwhile, the government to be transitioned from is already implementing the only concrete plan anyone will ever propose regarding that justice. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

To Be Blamed on Assad/Iran?
Consider from the AP's report:
 * The raid on Maan is likely to bolster efforts by the government delegation to convey their narrative at the Geneva peace talks that the three-year uprising to overthrow Assad is dominated by al-Qaida extremists. The extremists see Alawites as apostates who should be killed.

That will raise red flag with anyone familiar with the theory that Iran, actually, is largely behind channeling Al-Nusra into Syria, that Syria helps fund ISIS with oil deals, etc. (see here). All that, more or less, allegedly seems to be "to bolster efforts by the government (everything) to convey their narrative" that they're fighting Terrorists. Brilliant plan. Simply make it true, then claim it as true. But we're not so fooled by simple truth! Anyway, the timing and audacity of this clear terrorist massacre will be seen by some, maybe powerful folks, as pointing to certain state sponsors of terrorism, and they ain't "friends of Syria."

And since this is all an exercise in reverse psychology, the obvious implications is - the "friends"-supported terrorists timed their own audacious massacre to frame their real enemies as trying to frame them. And no, I do not suspect the regime of making it look like the rebels are making it look like the regime's making it look like rebels did it. That's clearly too many turns of the wheel. The turn before, might be just perfect. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * And round and round we go. :oD The problem the "friends" would have if their audience wasn't brain-dead anyway is that the operation is clearly dominated by Ahrar Al-Sham, whose flag gets raised on the broadcasting tower in the videos, and one of the leader-looking guys wear Suqour Al-Sham shirts. Their nice "FSA" friends under new label. I wonder by the way how Assad managed to get Uncle Zawahiri to do his bidding. Maybe he was hiding in Syria all the time anyway and that's why nobody can find him? Stay tuned, tomorrow in the NYT. --CE (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. They could claim it's a false flag using, well, false flags! The VDC lists FSA guys killed there (but not the massacre victims of course) ... well, the logic is there for the desperate to claim anyway, and even a debunk ready, just in case. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)