Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre

Death toll?

 * В Славянске проверяют информацию о приближающейся колонне бронетехники (Regional council deputy: the death toll in Odessa was 116 people) – РИА Новости
 * Kiev conceals deaths in Odessa fire, 116 killed - Ukrainian lawmaker – VoR
 * ''The interim Ukrainian authorities are hiding from the public the true death toll in Friday's tragedy in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, which actually claimed 116 lives, a member of the Odessa regional council told RIA Novosti Monday. "According to our data, there were 116 people killed in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. Killed, not just "dead". "We don't use the word "burned" or "suffocated", because autopsies are not being performed, since the people have bullet wounds to the head," Vadim Savenko said.


 * Одесситы рассказывают о зверствах нацистов
 * Vladimir Suchan on Facebook
 * ''According to Odessite activists with information on the ground, 126 people were killed only in the basement of the Labor Union building in Odessa on May 2. 8 people died by jumping from the windows, 12 people were beaten to death on the ground by the walls of the Labor Union building, and 9 people were shot to death by the windows. Altogether, the overall number of the dead significantly exceeds the official number of 46 and actually stands between 200 and 300.


 * Руководитель Одесской народной республики: По моим данным, в Доме профсоюзов погибли 272 человека (Head of the People's Republic of Odessa: According to my information, in the House of Trade Unions killed 272 people) – RT, May 16, 2014
 * ''During a fire in Odessa Trade Union House killed 272 people. This was explained in an interview with the head of the self-proclaimed RT Odessa's Republic Valery Kaurov. Now he is in Moscow.

Victim list

 * В неофициальном списке погибших 2 мая в Одессе — уже 42 имени (An informal list of victims on May 2 in Odessa - already 42 names)

Death of regional council deputy Vyacheslav Markin

 * В Одессе в госпитале умер депутат облсовета (In Odessa, a regional council deputy died in hospital)
 * ''In Odessa, died in hospital Odessa Regional Council deputy Vyacheslav Markin.
 * Andrey Davydov ‏@FarEasterner
 * ''Yesterday Maidanites severely beat local legislators who tried to stop mayhem. One of them Mr Markin just died

Victim analysis
On the Euromaidan PR video Russian Terrorists Burnt Alive shows badly burnt bodies in the stairwell. Odd positions, heads up, feet facing up to higher floor, rigor mortis, hands sticking up. It looks like these people did not die naturally in these positions. Many of the same oddities as we saw in the Khamis Brigade Morgue. Note the tags attached to the wrists. Some have documents in plastic bags attached with cable ties. These must have been placed by rescue services after the fire. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I had a look, but not a careful one. From the shed massacre, I can say usually back muscles contract more and bodies curl backwards if burnt enough. These don't look that burnt, nor are their postures very consistent with that. The arms up thing we also saw, and I'm not sure if people really die with arms frozen up in defense, but it looks like that here (0:16), like it did with the one guy who seemed beheaded. So, I don't know yet. They seem to have some marks on them, looking for bullet holes or the like. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Victims carried out
The head of the Russian State Duma Committee on Foreign Affairs Alexei Pushkov says
 * ''We know that in Odessa about 116 dead, we know that in Odessa have seen and heard, as handed down the corpses from the rear entrance of the House of Trade Unions, trying to hide the real number of people who were burned, strangled and shot in the House of Trade Unions."

One of the Denis Cherkasov videos shows about 10 smashed bodies carried out in the rear of the building, after the rear entrance is set on fire. I have a copy of the video, but now found a mirror on-line. I do not know if the people are alive or dead. Even if alive, they would die in a few minutes in the burning building, if left there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Одесса, 2 мая, Куликово поле, Дом профсоюзов с обратной стороны. Вынос раненых и убитых. (Odessa, May 2, Kulikovo Field, House of Trade Unions on the reverse side. Removal of the wounded and dead.)

Poison Gas?

 * Voice of Russia - People in Ukraine's Odessa died instantly, poisoned by unknown substance - report
 * "I was at the accident scene and saw a great number of dead people. It was evident that they died instantly, very quickly," the agency quoted Ukraine’s First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema as saying.
 * "This means that some substance burned which generated gas and this gas quickly affected people who lost consciousness and died on the spot," Yarema told journalists at a briefing in Odessa, RIA reports.
 * He said the examination of bodies will be carried out to identify the gas.

From the source (cabal official) and the bolded, obviously I don't trust this guy. But is this completely made-up? Or is he talking about something real he maybe knows about already? Is this just to explain why more people didn't try to escape, without mentioning people murdered by guns, bats, phone cords, and shot at as soon as they climbed out windows? There must've been an "accidental" gas. Or a purposeful one ... planted by the Russian provocateurs, of course. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

More here: (Moved from main page.) I think this is bullshit. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * События в Одессе происходили по разработанному сценарию - Порошенко (Events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario - Poroshenko)
 * ''People's Deputy of Ukraine, candidate for president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko noted that the events took place in Odessa on the developed scenario in advance and were prepared special toxic substances.
 * ''According to an UNIAN correspondent, he said at a briefing in parliament.
 * ''Poroshenko said that the script was developed, which began "with shooting terrorists who were brought from Transnistria, of Russia" and that shooting at people, speaking for a united Ukraine.


 * Порошенко сообщил о применении отравляющего вещества в одесском Доме профсоюзов (Poroshenko reported the use of toxic substances in the Odessa House of Trade Unions) – Gazeta.ru, May 6, 2014


 * Odessa: A Model of Warfare On the Cheap – Gordon Duff, May 16th, 2014 (Originally on NEO)
 * ''This was a NATO military operation, fully coordinated through the US Embassy in Kiev, one using nerve gas and done with full cooperation and support from local authorities. Sources among local law enforcement indicate that 94 additional bodies were removed, all showing signs of death from a chemical nerve agent, identified “probably” as VX. VX or one of a dozen or more derivatives of VX are available in grenade form.


 * Bloodbath in Odessa guided by interim rulers of Ukraine – "Antifascist", Voltaire net, 15 May 2014
 * ''Gasoline was mixed with napalm to form deadly, acrid carbon monoxide. The recipe for these deadly cocktails was created by chemists from Independence Square, but they were not used there. In Odessa, the mixture was employed for the first time and this was no accident: a massacre with a large number of fatalities was needed in order to terrorize the entire country.

Died in seconds?
Via AntiMaydan Odessa on VK
 * ''Chief lifeguard Odessa Oblast Vladimir Bodelan told some details of the tragic events of May 2 on the Kulikovo Field. According to him, fire central flight of stairs on the first two floors of the House of Trade Unions was literally in seconds. "Then followed some cotton, and it was evident that of cotton instantly fading fire. And at this very moment on the ground were a few people dropped out of the building by the back door. Most of them were still alive, and even on their feet leaving this place. But just a couple of tens of meters fell unconscious, and further the tragic outcome is known to all, "- says Vladimir Bodelan. According lifeguard, most the victims died almost instantly. "It is important as well as all not indifferent people to understand who and why needed to conduct such a horrific murder shares. But I'm sure that 99.9% of people were killed in the building trade unions in seconds, not choking from the smoke or fire eel. But there's forensics, wait their findings, "- he added. Vladimir Bodelan also noted that during the years of service has seen many deaths, but what happened in the Battle of Kulikovo it hard to believe until now.


 * US coup failed in Ukraine: Kiev junta's days are numbered – John Robles, VoR, 16 May 2014
 * ''Murder of Civilians by Right Sector in Ukraine
 * ''More details continue to come out regarding the horrible deaths at the House of Trade Unions in Odessa with the head of the Emergency Services Vladimir Bodelan, who was at the scene being dismissed for publishing his eyewitness version of the events on his Facebook page. According to the eyewitness account of the veteran rescuer, who has seen his share of bodies and death, what he saw at the House of Trade Unions was so horrible that it "cannot be real".
 * ''In his expert opinion he says the people in the House of Trade Unions all died in seconds and not the slow death of smoke inhalation. He also accounted how people were beaten to death and how the Right Sector brutally killed the people as well as how many people were able to successfully escape the burning building on their feet and then died suddenly on the spot.
 * ''He writes that even before the fire and smoke began pouring out of the House of Unions, on floors where there was no fire people were running to the windows trying to get fresh air to breathe. Again this was before the fire. He is 100% certain they were not affected by smoke from the fire. The head of the Emrgency Services says that his rescuers saved more than 350 people, and according to unofficial accounts there were more than 100 people killed in the fire.

Interior Ministry
From RT Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape, about the off-duty cop (I presume) shooting at the burning people and then claiming he was unarmed and they shot him ...
 * The Ukrainian Interior Ministry however offers a different version of events, saying the victims of the violent unrest started the fire themselves, when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the upper floor.

Quiet rage hit me there. Quiet, knife-in-your eye rage. The "legitimate government" and its demon-infested friends like this there will keep saying things like this until they're accusing these "Russian terrorists" of putting themselves on those trains to the extermination camps. Hoping to run over the beautiful EuroMaidan activists with it, of course... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

National Review
Western mainstream media has been shy of addressing the details or of calling this a "massacre" or anything incendiary. Hm, incendiary ... But finally we see a denunciation of the brutal and calculated crime in Odessa, so long as it's asking...
 * Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre? He has certainly exploited it Robert Zubrin, National Review, May 13
 * in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself.


 * ''So the question is, did he? ""

Yeah, probably, huh? Let's hear the details on how. Oh, Zubrin has none. None whatsoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The article he's written before contains a laughable CT that it's Putin with his filthy propaganda agents who's causing the overwhelming aversion of Europeans against fracking. Rest assured that I don't know anybody of any political stream who isn't against fracking since first having heard about it, just like against GMO food and comparable stuff. If you look at his company and the books he writes it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to saving humanity by helping us out of the dependency on oil with Mr. Zubrin's genius inventions is Vladimir Putin. ;o) --CE (talk) 09:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Andriy Parubiy

 * Ukraine official: Putin’s plans have failed - EurActiv, interview May 21: "Andriy Parubiy is a former commandant of Euromaidan. He spoke to EurActiv’s Senior Editor Georgi Gotev." He was somewhere for a meeting with NATO officials on how to fight the Russian plots against Ukraine. He shared many thoughts on how that works, from the anti-Fascit Maidan protests fired on by Spetsnaz snipers, to the Odessa Trade Unions provocation. The interviewer doesn't seem to like Parubiy, and asks him good/hard questions. Informative reading.
 * Q: How about this tragedy, this carnage in Odessa on 4 May?
 * Parubiy: This is a classic example of how Russia provokes, aiming at unleashing civil unrest and bloodshed. On that day, there was a football match. The fans had gathered and when they started marching with Ukrainian flags, a group of people started shooting at them with military guns. A few people were killed on the spot. In this group were citizens of Russia, which had come from Transnistria [a Russia-controlled breakaway territory of Moldova].
 * When the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions, experts have shown that the substance that provoked it had been stored there a long time ago. The House of the Trade Unions was a kind of headquarters for the separatists, it was not controlled by the authorities, nor by the opposition. And the substance that provoked the blaze was brought there during this period of time [when the separatists controlled the building]. I’m not saying that this substance was inflamed on purpose. But when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Militants with red armbands

 * Andrey Ivanchenko
 * 3. Militants of unknown origin (hereinafter simply militants) - armed men in camouflage uniforms with red armbands, some with St. George ribbons.
 * Very suspicious that after the "disappearance" of militants with red armbands, appeared on the scene militants SS. I'm not saying that these were the same people. But ... Who were these "strange militants" - provocateurs who attacked the "ultras" and supporters of the Maidan? And it's the most exciting question! The key to an accurate understanding of what happened.
 * Eyewitnesses to Odessa carnage: Pro-Russian side, armed for war, started shooting – Olena Goncharova, Kyiv Post, May 3, 2014
 * Alexey Albu, leader of anti-fascist ‘Borotba’ Odessa, who was severely injured in the later events at the Trade Union Building, reports that the men with the red armbands were his fellow activists of the "Defenders of Odessa". In a more detailed report, Borotba members give their version of what happened that day:


 * On May 2, under the pretext of the so-called march ‘For unity of Ukraine’ (that was dated to football match ‘Chernomorets’ – ‘Metallist’) – the paramilitary squads of Ukrainian nationalist were brought together to Odessa from all over the country. They arrived by buses and by trains. From the very beginning – when they just started to gather on ‘Sobornaya’ square – among ordinary ultra-right fans too many well-equipped paramilitaries could be seen. They had shields, helmets, bats, traumatic and service weapons. Mostly - men about 30-40 years old who were evidently not football fans. Some of them had shields where it was written: ’14-th hundred of Maidan self-guard’. And these nationalist paramilitaries became the main striking force of bloody massacre of Odessa residents on ‘Kulikovo pole’ square.


 * In total there were more than thousand of nationalists that participated in the march and the slaughter that followed it. Local residents of Odessa were the minority among them, while the majority – far-right paramilitaries that were brought together there. They could be identified in particular by dialect (not typical for Odessa region), however many of them openly acknowledged and told where they came from. Local Odessa fans of ‘Chernomorets’ team have left the march at the moment when clashes started – they came just for traditional march to the stadium and when they realized that ‘visitors’ and provocateurs led them to beat local people – the majority of ‘Chernomorets’ fans (identified by black-blue scarves of Odessa club) – immediately left the so-called ‘peaceful’ march. [...]


 * When the column of nationalists marched along Grecheskaya street - a few (some 200-250 people) activists of local Odessa militia tried to stop them. But soon the opponents of nationalists were pelted with stones, bottles and stun grenades. There were heard gunshots. The activist of "Borotba" Ivan has got a gunshot wound into the belly from a military weapon. Then activists and members of Odessa militia tried to escape in the shopping centre "Athena" in the ‘Greek’ square. A crowd of far-right nationalists demanded to start a carnage against them. The far-right paramilitaries started immediately to prepare Molotovs on the square in order to set fire to the shopping center with barricaded Odessa militia members inside it. Police officers managed to save the lives of activists as they drove police cars directly to the entrance of the shopping centre.


 * Then the crowd of nationalist headed to the square ‘Kulikovo Pole’, where there was a camp of opponents to Kiev junta. Activists of ‘Borotba’, along with other activists and ordinary Odessa residents, were on duty that day in the protest camp. In total there were some 200 people in the camp and half of them - women and elderly men. [...]

Via Saker:
 * For those of you who can understand Russian, here is an extremely interesting report about the "red-banded" infiltrators seen amongst the pro-Russian, pro-junta and even the police


 * Бойня в Одессе результат провокации

Here is a full length version of the video used for proof of on both sides. The Odessa resistance first stands at barricade behind the police line. Police retreat undef Molotov cocktail fire and end up in the same line at the barricade. Resistance fires AK-47s from the merged "police" line. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * https://vk.com/video245916173_168423862

Anti-terrorist operation uses red armbands:
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlFLminrZgk#t=75

Via Antimaydan Odessa on VK:
 * ''Fuchedzhi told who was behind the unrest in Odessa Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Oak (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2, 2014, which killed more than forty people. This he told the National Bureau of Investigation Ukraine. According Fuchedzhi Yulia Tymoshenko appointed Oak "looking" in Odessa. In this capacity, Oak secretly directs law enforcement agencies of the region. 2 May Odessa police had not stopped the unrest as a result of a number of indications Oak transmitted regional leadership through the cupola MIA Oleg Babenko, who is an assistant and "right hand" of the Oak. Babenko came from instructions not to intervene, as well as to collect all the police leadership to "meeting" and discuss common issues behind closed doors with mobile phones switched off. Prosecutor Igor Borshulyak Odessa region, ordered the police to release the arrested zachischikov bloodshed - it is also a man of the Oak. Fuchedzhi claims he is one of the entire leadership of the Odessa Police was May 2 not in the office and on the street with people and tried to stop the violence, negotiated, tried to reconcile the conflicting parties. In addition, he reminded of the duty to other policemen who were inactive on orders from above. In response, he heard: "Orders are orders, Lutsyuk ordered not to interfere with him, and there is no connection."

Motives?

 * Ukrainian Defense News Network on Facebook
 * ''According to the reports, on April 28, 2014 the leaders of Kievan junta Olexander Turchinov and Arseniy Yatsenyuk received a confidential cable from Washington urging them to neutralize by any means the threat of secession of Odessa region. It was underlined, that in case of the lost control over this strategic port in the Black Sea, new Kiev's authorities would not be able to reckon on further US, EU and IMF diplomatic and financial support. At the same time the US intelligence agents in Kiev and Odessa were tasked to provide all necessary assistance and expertice to their Ukrainian wards to perform a special operation aimed to nip the anti-fascist resistance in Odessa.


 * Note: "The reports" unexplained. A comment there asked, and UDNN responded "An insider report from Kiev. We can't disclose the source." Could be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Perpetrators?

 * ONE OF THE ACTORS IN THE ODESSA POGROM WAS IDENTIFIED – UKRAINIAN COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, May 9, 2014

This is the talk page, right? So blah blah ... this guy to me looked like an off-duty cop. Bulletproof vest, blue shirt, little pistol, and hanging out with a cop while placing a call to (was that straight to Interior Minister Avakov I heard he placed a call to?) Here they say he's a criminal guy, somehow deputized to be in this pogrom. at a level sufficient to be at a meeting with Andriiy Parubiy a couple days earlier. Is there anything to his cop appearance, or is that just coincidence? Was this criminal thug deputized as some kind of semi-cop, liaison with the mob type or something? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know who originally identified him but this excellent German article published on the same day as the one above has him, and another man who was seen all over the place agitating the crowd, and with Wolkow, and with Parubij. That's a certain M. Gordienko, a self-proclaimed Maidan activist with not much more information about him. Screenshot of his facebook page, talking about a meeting with the Interior ministry four days after the events. --CE (talk) 10:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Igor Kolomoisky
 * RT: Kiev protégé allegedly behind Mariupol and Odessa massacres – leaked tapes
 * Video: Igor Kolomoisky behind Odessa massacre
 * The Key Man Behind the May 2nd Odessa Ukraine Trade Unions Building Massacre: His Many Connections to the White House, Eric Zuesse, May 18, 2014


 * Other
 * Милиция задержала «евромайдановца», подозреваемого в расстреле одесситов 2 мая (Police detained "evromaydanovtsa" suspect in the shooting Odessites May 2) – 05/19/2014
 * Доказательства: Убийца с Майдана в Доме Профсоюзов (Proof: Maidan assassin in the House of Trade Unions) – Святослав Хоробрый, May 21, 2014

Witnesses
Via Odessa Republic on VK
 * ''Survivor story in the House of Trade Unions: "I ran to the right, and it saved my life." TIMER provides its readers the story of another man who was on the Kulikovo Field and the House of Trade Unions during the tragic events of May 2. According to our source, who wished to remain anonymous first defenders tried to hold a barricade constructed at the entrance to the House of Trade Unions, but the hail of stones soon forced them to retreat into the building. According to the activist, the building has already started to burn, but people still decided to take refuge there. "Why we went into the building - no one knows - says an eyewitness. - The building people diverged who left, who right. I ran to the right, and it saved my life. " In addition, some people ran up the central staircase. According to him, the building was very dark, so the windows were shuttered. When this building was already well smoggy. Some time people tried to sit in their offices, and when suffocating smoke began to penetrate and there, rushed to the stairs. Our interlocutor was lucky he did not run to the central staircase, and to the one that was located in the right wing of the building. There also went along with him for approximately two dozen people. All of them survived. "I immediately began to shout:" Fire, fire! ". But fire came only about an hour and a ladder brought us - says the man - Even when m³ out, I shouted: "Bandera, if you're there, then leave, because burn!." He argues that escaped from House of Trade Unions mainly those who thought to escape from the fire and smoke in the wings of the building, and those who remained in the central part of or tried to climb the central staircase, died.

Tatiana:
 * KyivPost: Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories
 * “He was standing on the right of me. I could hear shouting: ‘We’ll kill you’. My face was to the wall and I couldn’t see, but something hit me on the head, I don’t know what it was,” said Tetiana. Her hair caught on fire but the man next to her put it out, saving her life, she says.

Alyona:
 * Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly seen in video footage, were not from their group.


 * However, Alyona says protesters inside may have been making Molotov cocktails, in panic, but were not very competent and failed to throw them outside. But she thinks it impossible that the building was set on fire from the inside. ... She did not see any flames. ... she and four women and eight men barricaded themselves inside the fourth floor office because they could hear people coming to attack them from the corridor.