Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Investigations

Six Official Investigations
The UNHRC (June report PDF) and Ukraine's Ministry of Foreign Affairs both put the number of official investigations at of the Odessa massacre at six. As MFA lists them, July 23 (auto-translated):


 * The Ministry of internal Affairs of Ukraine;


 * GPU (in terms of production in respect of unlawful conduct of police officers);


 * SBU (in terms of production in relation to attempts by forceful overthrow of the constitutional order of the state);


 * The Ukrainian Parliament Commissioner for human rights;


 * Temporary investigative Commission of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on the investigation into the death of citizens in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol, as well as in other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine (VSC created 13 may 2014, part 10 of deputies, Chairman of the VSC elected MP from the Party of regions faction of Anton kiss, Deputy - MP from the faction of the "Batkivshchyna" Alexander Oak);


 * a special Commission composed of members of the public under the auspices of the Governor of the Odessa region).

If this last refers to the "independent" ], its being under the "auspices" of governor Nemirovsky, a massacre apologist and organizer, is clearly problematic.--Caustic Logic (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Timeline

 * (moved from Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre


 * May 8: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch jointly call for an impartial investigation, relating what was reported so far, with questions about police response and other issues. They put the onus on Kiev to be fair, and note their promise to work with experts from Europe and Israel.


 * May 12 - formation of May 2 Committee. The May 2 Committee, a panel of civic leaders, journalists, experts coordinated by social worker Sergey Dibrov. A May 19 report has Dibrov explaining (it seems) it wasn't to replace official investigations but to do their own work since people shouldn't just trust it. Pro-federalists opposed the inclusion of journalist Yuri Tkachev, but Dibrov and others insisted he stay for a balanced view. Tkachev earlier said, in an interview with DW, that federalists started the trouble, and the first victim was on the Euromaidan side. The latter is apparently undeniable, the former seems true on the surface but is well worth questioning) while noting the Maidanistas did come armed and ready to be provoked ...  "We want to show what happened and when, having painted events by the minute," said Dibrov. They planned to annoince their first findings in early June.


 * May 13? Something from the Ukrainian Rada http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1264-vii --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This should announce the creation of a "Temporary investigative commission of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to investigate the facts of death of people in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol and other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk Ukraine (TSC created May 13, 2014 consisting of 10 deputies, elected chairman of the TSC MP from the "Party of Regions" Anton Kisse (Кіссе), deputy - MP from the Union "Fatherland" Alexander Dubovogo..." (as mentioned by MFA July 23)  Interesting tidbit: " Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Dubogovo (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2..." (Antimaydan Odessa)


 * June 2: Party of Regions has started an investigation www.newsru.ua/ukraine/02jun2014/efram.html

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf This calls Odessa "the most serious single incident of significant loss of life in Ukraine since the killings on Maidan," and noted that the government is blocking oversight of its dubious investigations:
 * June 15 UN report
 * ...six official investigations have been established. The main bodies undertaking such investigations are the Ministry of Interior (MoI) and the State Security Service in Ukraine (SBU). It is with regret that the HRMMU reports a lack of cooperation from both governmental bodies, particularly at the central level with the HRMMU, which has been preventing the HRMMU from conducting a proper assessment of the progress made.


 * August 5 "Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaly Yarema on Saturday urged to speed up the investigation of the May 2 tragic events in Odessa, which claimed the lives of at least 48 people and injured over 200. “In this context I would like to pay attention to the necessity of a speedy legal decision, concerning criminal proceedings over the tragic events in Odessa in early May,” UNIAN news agency quoted Yarema as saying." Ria.ru


 * September 4: "On September 4 Chairman of the commission of the Odessa regional council Grigory Yepur said that the commission had disbanded itself. The investigation has been conducted by the Prosecutor's General and the Interior Ministry of Ukraine which are not accountable to deputies of a local level, Yepur said." (Itar-Tass, Sept. 8) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * September 8: Parliament Investigation releases report. See below --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC) and Caustic Logic (talk) 11:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Rada Investigation Report

 * Official report on Rada website, Sept. 8 (in Ukrainian - note: endorsements may not be accurate)
 * Detailed report Direct .RTF download link: Додаток (1) 05.09.2014 (working on a summary / translation) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The Dumskaya critique by Oleg Konstantinov says (translated) the report "raises questions" about "factual errors, which are abundant in the document - it confused even the leaders of organizations and institutions that have been actively involved in the tragedy," an issue already covered by "Timer." He then notes conclusions - signed off on by all members - that contradict what some members (specified: Svetlana Fabricant and Anton Dorohov) had earlier said, and in fact what they had agreed to sign - a version of the report already given to Dumskaya that differed in at least 4 major ways from the later official version. This raised the question if they changed their minds, were forced to sign, or what. Apparently, it was changed after their signatures (see below) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Immediate critique: Report of the Parliamentary Commission on the events of May 2 "tweaked" after signing by People's Deputy Dumskaya, Sep. 8


 * Closing: "How all these changes have changed the essence of the report, judge for yourself. We hope to get explanations for the transformation of text here with the Committee Chairman Anton Kisse and his Deputy Alexander Dubogov." (The 4 Redactions outlined below) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * No official conclusion despite long investigation into mass death in Odessa Itar-Tass, Sept. 8
 * The Ukrainian experts have failed to establish the exact causes of mass death of people in Odessa on May 2, the Ukrainian Rada said on its website, citing an investigative commission of the Ukrainian parliament for an investigation into mass death of citizens in the building of the Trade Unions in Odessa, in Mariupol and other cities of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "In the absence of modern equipment local experts were unable to establish objective reasons of the people's death," the investigative commission said in its account available on the website.


 * "Only with the assistance of international experts it will be possible to find out if there were hazardous substances in the bodies of the victims who died in the building of the Trade Unions in Odessa," the commission said.
 * Nonetheless, perhaps confusingly:
 * The commission reported that 48 forensic examinations of the bodies killed in Kulikovo field square had been carried out. All in all, 85 forensic examinations and 160 other tests were appointed, the commission said.
 * The results of the forensic tests showed that nine people died of poisoning by toxic fire fumes, thirteen were poisoned by hazardous substances which caught fire, twelve died of heavy burns of the respiratory system and body burns and eight were killed, falling from an altitude of eight meters. Six died of fatal gunshot wounds, the commission said.


 * Kyiv Post backs this up:
 * Objective reasons for the loss of life during tragic events in Odesa on May 2 cannot be obtained due to the lack of modern equipment from local experts, according to members of the temporary investigative commission of the Verkhovna Rada Committee investigating the deaths of citizens in Odesa, Mariupol and other cities in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts.

Well, someone had planned to call on experts months ago. As Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch mentioned on May 8: "The newly appointed police chief said in a statement to the media that a team of Kiev investigators was working on establishing what had happened and that they would soon be joined by independent experts from Israel and Europe." --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Objective reasons for the loss of life during tragic events in Odesa on May 2 cannot be obtained due to the lack of modern equipment from local experts, according to members of the temporary investigative commission of the Verkhovna Rada Committee investigating the deaths of citizens in Odesa, Mariupol and other cities in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts.


 * Media says Ukraine’s Rada report on probe to Odessa massacre fabricated Itar-Tass, Sept. 9
 * The final report about the results of the probe into the massacre in Odessa on May 2, 2014 and into other episodes of violence in other Ukrainian cities that was published by the Verkhovha Rada /parliament/ has been fabricated, Odessa-based media said on Tuesday.
 * The report of the investigation commission set up within the Verkhovna Rada was presented to journalists by the commission’s secretary Svetlana Fabrikant.
 * (the "media" isn't named or linked to, but seems to be Dumskaya, cited above. This I-T article provides details on what was cut, as well as what was inserted, that I'd rather cover under the primary source.

MP Fabrikant swiftly confirmed that the report had been altered after her signature, into something she insisted her name be taken off of.
 * Svetlana Fabrikant, a member of the Ukrainian parliament and secretary of the parliamentary commission probing into the massacre in Odessa on May 2, 2014 and into other episodes of violence in other Ukrainian cities, on Tuesday withdrew her signature under the commission’s report, saying it had been falsified.
 * “Regrettably, other members of the commission made some adjustments to the document after I had signed it,” she said. “After the document was published on the official website of the parliament, I found my signature under a different document and I cannot agree with it.” ... “Key participants in those developments had never showed up at the commission’s sessions. The reluctance of officials to provide explanations to the commission is an eloquent answer. What kind of openness and joint work can we speak about?” she said, adding that the authorities were apparently seeking to drop the investigation of the Odessa tragedy. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Identified Redactions
The following are my (partly) repaired Yandex/Google translations of the 4 points Konstantinov makes in his September 8 article for Dumskaya. Note for anyone trying the same: it's a Russian-language site, here citing Ukrainian sources in Ukrainian, so you have to switch. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

1. The second version shows a very different role in Odessa's events of the former Secretary of the NSDC Andriy Parubiy and ex-Governor Vladimir Nemirovsky. The text, which showed People's Deputy, they are referred to as (original language):
 * "However, written information on the issues discussed in the specified session and instructions provided by the results of Ukraine's NSDC Secretary repeated requests for temporary investigative commission did not provide. Outside the attention of the investigation remained involved in the events of nearly 500 people who were promoted by the President of the Odessa Regional State Administration Nemirovsky VL was brought to Odessa from Kiev square and placed at checkpoints. Community of independent journalists believe that these men were key players stripping campsite at Kulikovo field and set the House of Trade Unions.
 * The event has a common response among the public of the city, as further developments and the lack of information on matters that solved while in NSDC Secretary allows dissemination of information that this officer controlled the action of so-called "self-defense groups."

These passages have been deleted. Information about five hundred "maydanovtsev" now appears only in direct speech fugitive deputy head regional ATC Dmitri Fuchedzhi. About Parubiya piece was moved to the top, where there is a speech about the difficulties faced by the Commission in its investigation. It sounds as follows:
 * "In numerous meetings with representatives of the Interim Commission of Inquiry public c. Odessa focused on his arrival on the eve of May Day to the city. Odessa previous Secretary Parubiya AV and arrival after the tragic events 05/03/2014 to the city. Odessa Deputy Minister Interior-Chief of Staff CEBOTARU SI ( Чеботарь С.И ) creation by operations staff to stabilize the operational situation in the city. Odessa and Odessa region and taking over the role of leadership. According to members of the Interim Commission of Inquiry, these persons would clarify the situation regarding the events that took place from 2 to 4 May 2014 in the city. Odessa."

Clearly, the difference between the deleted paragraphs the ones that appear is colossal.

2. In the part where they talk about the famous meeting in the regional Prosecutor office - exactly at the time of deployment of the opposing sides - added the phrase "at the entrance to the office, where the meeting was held, it had a sign asking you to turn off mobile phones" (about this meeting, which was held by the Deputy Prosecutor General Nikolai Banchuk, first told Fusegi). In the original text it was only the following remark: "the direction of Banya M.V. present at the meeting to turn off cell phones were not provided".

3. From a piece of "according to the investigative authorities, the conflict ALLEGED ( НАЧЕБТО ) provoked by Pro-Russian parties, which were among the participants of the rally for unity with Russia and support the federalization of Ukraine", the word "like" ( начебто ), that was "supposedly" ( якобы ). One word, and the text is played quite differently!

4. From the paragraph, which originally looked like this: "After the events that took place in the shopping center "Athena" one of the leaders of "Euromaidan" Andrew Yusov on Preobrazhenskaya street organizes and encourages "Euromaidan" activists to move on Kulikovo field, where the representatives of Antimidaidam," he disappeared Yusov (it was replaced by "some leaders "Euromaidan") and the representatives of "Antimaidan".

Full Report Summary
Meetings: First the report explains the commission, lists signatories (to the prior draft anyway), and then outlines the meetings held. The first meeting was held on May 16, to get organized. Other meetings on May 21, 22, 23, 26 27 29, June 2, 4, 5, and 16 the committee met mainly with various security officials, mainly about the events in Odessa -May 21 met with "staff of the Odessa city management research Affairs of Ukraine in Odessa region," who told them "about the complex preparatory, preventive and investigative measures aimed at ensuring public order" on the day of the clashes and massacre, "as well as the relatively prompt action by law enforcement officers during these events." It seems some of their actions were relatively prompt, but it's the others that needed more scrutiny. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

"Verbal explanations" were provided at these meetings by some 32 "experts" - mainly anti-terrorism and national guard types. They did not seem to invite any survivors, family of victims, or representatives of their camp, for an inside view of "who killed you and how?" With these masses of people giving their opinions how to understand the videos of "they started it," chances are high they had little time to really cover what happened at the Trade Union hall anyway. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

June 24, they met with "a group of journalists and experts who are conducing and independent investigation into the events that took place May 2 in Odessa. July 9 and 24 they considered events in Mariupol (see Mariupol Massacre), hearing from "former Representative Battalion "Azov", a member of Mariupol City Council and others." On Sept. 2 fthey held a inal meeting, "which concluded its work and adopted the report of the Commission on the work done." --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

In addition to these meetings and of the meetings, the Chairman of the Interim investigation Commission A. I. Kisse "held two meetings with the Head of the Monitoring UN mission on human rights in Ukraine Mr. Armen Harutyunyan and meeting with representatives of the Special monitoring of the OSCE mission to Ukraine," where he "drew attention to the need for European experts independent examination of the dead bodies," which Harutyunyan has promised to facilitate - committee asked the Minister of Internal Affairs which asked the embassies of the US, Israel, Germany, and the UK. - it apparently never happened. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Findings:
 * Acknowledgment of illegality by pro-Kiev elements is vague but present: "On the Kulikovo field representatives "Euromaidan" started to burn the tents and to commit unlawful acts against activists "Antimaidan" who locked themselves in the House of trade unions." Do they mean "had locked themselves in," prior to the acts, or ran in to escape the violence? Because the former is more true. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "According to the results of their review... the Commission directed in the main investigation Department of the Ministry of internal Affairs ... (to establish) new defendants in the event that may be involved in the organization of mass riots and the death of large numbers of citizens, in Odessa, as well as establishing the persons who have committed illegal acts." Names were agreed on, then removed (see.


 * "April 29, 2014, Odessa, chaired by the Secretary of the NSDC of Ukraine Parubiy A.V. held a meeting of the operational staff to ensure a co-ordinated measures to respond rapidly to challenges and threats to national security of Ukraine with participation of the Odessa regional state administration, management, security service (et al.)"


 * "Head of the Odessa city police Department Luzuko PS (Petr Lutsyuk) reported that on may 2, scheduled three events: the first set - a-side football, the second - on the Kulikovo field, where after 18.00 hours, it was planned to collect up to 200 people, and the third near the monument to Duke, where after 18.00 hours, it was planned to collect up to 200 people." --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Any applications in the prescribed manner for the conduct of the March "For United Ukraine" from its participants to the Odessa city Council has not received, permission to conduct the relevant shares were not provided. Thus, all shares that were held were unauthorized." --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"May 2, 2014 at approximately 12:00 hours. in the premises of the Prosecutor of the Odessa region Deputy Prosecutor General of Ukraine, Banchuk MV ( Банчука М.В ) conducts operational meeting on the theme: on "the state of work on combating separatism, public opposition and ensuring law and order in the Odessa Region" with the participation of the Odessa Regional State Administration, Regional Council, prosecution Odessa region, heads of law enforcement bodies of the Odessa region and their deputies, heads of military units stationed in Odessa region, and others. This meeting was held in coordination with the General Prosecutor of Ukraine."
 * The Odd Meeting:
 * At the entrance to the Cabinet where he held meetings there was a notice with a request to turn off mobile phones.
 * The direction of Banchuk M.V. present at the meeting to turn off cell phones were not provided, as evidenced by the calls of the Chairman of the Odessa regional state administration with the Prime Minister of Ukraine, head of the security service of Ukraine in Odessa region with the Chairman of the security service of Ukraine, head of research Affairs of Ukraine in Odessa region.
 * Meaning, calls weren't actually prevented by this.
 * Head of main Department of internal Affairs of Ukraine in Odesa region Lutsyuk PS during the meeting asked Benchuca MV after his speech, along with his Deputy Fusegi A.I to leave the meeting in connection with the arrival of fans at a football match.
 * Lutsyuk later went to the stadium to manage personnel in order to ensure public order and Fuchedzhy DV in nearby buildings MIA of Ukraine in the Odessa area to monitor the situation around the building.
 * Meaning, perhaps, neither the top cop nor his deputy were absent from the scene? Fucheji's been seen - not sure what Lutsyuk looks like.
 * As it turned out later, the mobile phone Suzuka PS ( Луцюка П.С. ) called Dolzhenkov S.A. asking to provide information about the plan "Fortress" (plan for the conservation of areas of the state Ministry of internal Affairs of Ukraine in Odessa region) with the aim of seizing buildings and theft of firearms. Upon refusal, the latter decided to grab a Kalashnikov in the Odessa Institute of internal Affairs, where there were about 500 machines, which were guarded by 2 cadets.
 * Meaning? --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"Main Suspect" appears on Russian TV
The deputy head of police Fuchedzhy gave a rather long interview to Russian TV after Porky declared him the "main suspect". Video was uploaded to youtube on Sep 28. I came across a translation to (slightly broken) German. He says he's the fall guy and the real main perpetrator is the governour Nemirovsky, who he says is a protege of Yats and brought Parubiy to Odessa to do the planning and execution of getting rid of the anti-Maidan camp at the union building. He says he has written detailed descriptions of the events and sent it to the investigators. Seems like especially point one of the redactions is based on this testimony. He says he's not willing to testify in Ukraine under the current circumstances as he fears for his life. He was shot at and injured in the arm during the events and suspects it was deliberately and they were trying to kill him. (edit: I see you already discussed this over here. Was a bit out of the loop for the last couple of days. Well, here you have a transcript in broken German, for what it's worth.)--CE (talk) 11:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent, I've been hoping to hear more. The first interview too, I'm not sure I ever got a good translation of. His story is interesting, ambiguous, with the "devil in the details" and we've been a short on those. I'll check this out - a 2-3 step process, but maybe after waiting to see what the news stories in text pass on about it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Football fans march was not authorized
Fuchedji claimed in the interview that football fans march was not authorized.

Rada report confirms that.

Начальник Одеського міського управління міліції доповідав Луцюку П.С., що на 2 травня заплановано три заходи: перший захід - футбол, другий - на Куликовому полі, де після 18.00 години планувався збір до 200 чоловік, третій - біля пам’ятника Дюку, де після 18.00 години планувався збір до 200 чоловік. Відповідно до цих заходів і було розписано місце перебування міліції.

Жодних заявок у встановленому порядку для проведення маршу «За єдину Україну» від його учасників до Одеської міської ради не надходило, дозволів на проведення відповідних акцій не надавалось. Таким чином, всі акції, які проводилися були несанкціоновані.

Chief of Odessa city militsia (=police) administration reported to P.S. Lutsiuk that 3 events were planned: 1. football 2. meeting at Kulikovo (normal pro-Russian opposition meeting place) of up to 200 people after 18.00 3. meeting of up to 200 people at the "duke" monument (normal Euromaidan/Right Sector meeting place). Militsia positioning was planned accordingly.

No request to Odessa city council according to specified procedures was made for conducting a march "For United Ukraine," and no permission was granted. Accordingly, all actions which took place were unauthorized. --Resup (talk) 12:30, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I had noticed that, in a worse translation. Why not bother regtistering such an important event? Well, if it's an off-the-books anti-terror (aka terrorist) operation, a spontaneous provoked riot meant to get out of control ... well, they still should have registered the part that was pre-planned and pre-announced. Because otherwise, it looks odd, like you're being all off-the-books. In wonder why they didn't. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * For authorized march they would need appropriate police presence, and likely they did not want that. There is lots of humor in town but I doubt there is are many lawyer jokes (if at all). --Resup (talk) 01:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Kalashnikovs seized
Нарада закінчилася приблизно о 14.30 год...

Як з’ясувалося в подальшому, на мобільний телефон Луцюка П.С. телефонував Долженков С.О. вимагаючи надати інформацію щодо плану «Фортеця» (план охорони приміщення ГУ МВС України в Одеській області) з метою захоплення будівлі та викрадення вогнепальної зброї. Отримавши відмову, останній вирішив захопити автомати Калашникова в Одеському інституті внутрішніх справ, де знаходилося біля 500 автоматів, які охороняло 2 курсанти.

"Meeting (long meeting Fuchedji had to attend) was over at 14.30"...

"As became clear afterwards, S.A. Dolzhenkov called P.S. Lutsiuk cell phone, demanding information on plan "Castle" (plan of guarding the building of Main Administration of Ministry of Internal Affairs, Odessa region) aimed at capturing the building and taking possession of firearms. Demand being rejected, (Dolzhenkon) decided to seize Kalashnikov guns at the Odessa Institute of Internal Affairs, where about 500 Kalashnikovs were kept, guarded by 2 cadets. " --Resup (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Interesting story. They say there was no seizure though, and this second plan was also foiled when the guns there were re-located. Giogle trans of the part right after: "These machines are law enforcement officers seized and transported to the police Department, eliminating the possibility of seizing weapons." I had the impression this plotter was on the Maidan side, but now I'm not sure. Also, what kind of plot is this? "Hey, chief of police, tell me how to break into your armory. No? Oh I'm mad now. Gonna shoot you, if I can get into that armory..." Huh? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed the following up text says that cops secured those weapons. And 500 guns was not needed in any case. This is still some curious detail likely indicating that few real weapons were seized (or used during transfer, than placed back in storage, etc).
 * It should be quite impossible to hide that there was a phone call, so it is admitted. But one can try to say that yes there was a call, but sort of nothing happened. I do not know who Dolzhenkov is; I am pretty sure it was him who is said to place  a call. Whichever side he is, this was likely used to facilitate using weapons under cover.     --Resup (talk) 01:09, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Mix-up above? I have "Suzuka PS called Dolzhenkov S.A.," and see that's the order but Suzuka must be Lustsyuk (Луцюка = L-U-??-K-extra a), So, it must just be a backwards order thing; your version makes more sense. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I see some reports listing Dolzhenkov on pro-Russian side; I do not know is it true; he can also be embedded there in advance; I do not know anything about him. He does not seem to be acting in the interests of pro-Russian side, that seems clear. --Resup (talk) 01:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Hold that last thought. This gets interesting. It comes from the investigation report, but the info goes under clashes, red armband contingent. Most of the stuff above copied for there, stuff below cut for the Dolzhenkov section there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

May 2 Group
So, for those following the investigations, Ukraine's six, only two were not guranteed to be insider whitewashes: the Rada report, and the independent-seeming May 2 Group. This panel of civic leaders, journalists, experts was formed on May 12. It apparently included a mix of voices, coordinated by social worker Sergey Dibrov. A May 19 report has Dibrov explaining (it seems) it wasn't to replace official investigations but to do their own work since people shouldn't just trust what the ministries say. The group released little, perhaps due to a lack of agreement. They have an official website: http://2maygroup.blogspot.com/ (no analysis yet - they mention news articles, somewhat at least from "both sides.") --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC) One glimpse of the group's thinking can be had in a briefing held on or before August 20 at a place called "Odessa Crisis Media Center." By the Ukie-color logo, this is the group that runs the May 2-affiliated http://www.odcrisis.org/ website. This helps the public - for example, the family of massacred federalists - find truth and closure by running articles like one by two leaders of "Automaidana" ( Автомайдана ) speaking on "the struggle against separatism and pro-Russian sentiment in Odessa and the region," as well as moving on to wider anti-terrorist news.
 * Automaidan is an activist auto club (supportive ) of Euromaidan (and enjoying photographing themselves with Bandera artefacts, or similar). Approximate US analogy would be "Hell's Angels," or such bunch, investigating, e.g. in Ferguson, Missouri (while enjoying their media-positive environment) --Resup (talk) 14:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Never did say I like that comparison. Not sure how specifically racist the Angels are, but the point works. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The "Crisis" crew's August briefing with the May 2 set was described with photos in a Ukraian blog post here, translated to English for Voice of Ukraine here. This mentions the transliteration of the group's name Gruppa Vtorogo Maya, and its strict adherence to agreement on statements, and implicitly on things like the content of this briefing.

Three presenters are cited by name. One is a journalist, Leonid Stekel, who addresses some demands about dis-empowering the "militia" across Ukraine, an opinion that there should be something like the FBI in Ukraine, and nothing specific about May 2.

Vladimir Sarkisyan, an expert in toxicology and forensic medicine, said all official story stuff was true. "The death toll matches with the official data" and "The cause of death ascertained by official forensic experts is correct." There were no chemical agents, white phospohorous, chloroform, anything employed by either side. People died from natural fire cause only and no bodies were burnt after death. He notes that if everyone had said this from the start, there wouldn't be so much confusion now. Also, it should be noted he is a total expert and should be totally trusted.

Vladislav Balinskiy studied the video record and decided only the pro-Russian side used guns, recklessly provoked the attack on themselves, made illogical barricades with their subhuman intelligence, kept away all help with their ceaseless lashing-out even at firemen, and so on and so it was all their fault. Article closes: "“Gruppa Vtorogo Maya” is going to continue to investigate the tragedy in Odessa." It's not just a tragedy, of course, but a crisis, a provocation that was resisted! They'll get to the bottom of it. Right?

No, if the August briefing is any sign, this enterprise in fakery is not going to offer any remotely useful insights into what happened on May 2, only on how a sick Nazi regime manipulates its people. The Rada probe was the best hope among them, and of course it came out inherently fact-based and useful, but half-failed at signing time and then watered-down after that. Their report merits a look, but it'll be up to the outsiders, investigations #7 and up, to get a more realistic reading. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


 * On the Crisis center, I actually didn't know or connect the overall Ukraine Crisis Media Center. Odessa's branch just turns the triangles into seagulls. No wonder it talks so much about ATO and so little about the May "crisis." Duh ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

May 2 Group coordinator Sergei Dibrov is not to be considered an impartial source on the events of May 2. Certainly if one of the "pro-Russian terrorists" defending inside had survibed and been put in charge of the "independent" investigation, would not fly. But when it goes the other way ... Consider one of the videos posted to Youtube by " Mr. Dibrov," of several totalling about 7 hours when Sergei is said to have taken 7 hours of footage (see here for overview. At 2:15 in this one, the filmer, who should be Sergei, stands up on something and announced something very loudly in Russian to the people attacking the Trade Union Hall. As helpfully translated and clarified by ACLOS member Resup (at the above link):
 * somebody yells: "samooborona !!! (self-defense !!!--call to selfdefence unit to pay attention). From the second station, a crowd is moving !!! 30-40 people !!!" Q: "second station?" A; "Yes, Food Academy"
 * ... a crowd, potentially dangerous, but not identified, of some 30-40 people, is approaching them from a train station number 2, and he clarifies the one which is from the direction of college which prepares specialists for the food industry.

However that maps out or who it refers to, this is clearly someone involved in one side of the hostilities, privy to and sharing tactical information to the side setting a building ablaze. A week or so later, he's coordinating the investigation to double-check the official one which he says shouldn't be trusted ... until his group echoes it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure who yells this, it's kind of loud but not close to the video recording; my impression was it is not the same guy who is filming --Resup (talk) 13:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

With May 2 group, after looking into their publications very briefly, they seem to be kind of broadcasting the official line, not doing some penetrating observations. (And it may be dangerous to do anything else in the open in Odessa at this point in time) --Resup (talk) 13:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

May 2 Committee
This is a very different group from the group above, less formal but called a committee, and more in touch with the anti-Kiev stance, plenty willing to consider a Fascist massacre, and I think much closer to the reality that lays between the extremes but well towards this side. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Website: http://www.2may.org/
 * Presence on VKontakte and Facebook