Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham

ISIS-Rebel Infighting
This is a huge subject I and we have not followed closely. It's said the fights between ISIS, other Islamist rebels including JAN, and others, has claimed over 1,000 lives since December. I suggested a page for it, but I suppose a section here will do. SO this is it. --

Beheading an Ahrar ash-Sham Fighter
(strangely appropriate prelude to the infighting)

One interesting story I've been catching but didn't know where to mention occurred recently in or around Aleppo. The SOHR reported on Nov. 13:
 * The ISIS in Aleppo city killed and decapitated a fighter and showed it to civilians, SOHR activists were present (footage). The ISIS claimed that the victim was a Shi'ite Iraqi fighter volunteer with the regime forces. It has been discerned that the victim is actually a rebel fighter who was wounded during the clashes in the 80th brigade. 

They have a video, still not pulled, of the man's bearded head held aloft by one fighter as another explains in Arabic. Several people are filming this besides the SOHR activist who took this video. A comment explains "Yalla Souriya (pro-rebel) report on this: "ISIS decapitate Ahrar Ash-Sham fighter who said Ali and Hussein while under anesthesia for surgery." Given link: http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/syria-isis-omarsyria-isis-decapitate-ahrar-ash-Sham/ Headed: #Syria #ISIS - @omarsyria. Two video links are provided, seems to be all to the same footage (didn't sign in - but I've saved a copy of that just in case) Referring to Shia religious figures while in deep delirium was taken as a sign he was a a Shi'ite fighter (which should have raised a question why he was alive and being cared for up to that point in a rebel hospital) or worse a sleeper agent. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The New York Times on the 16th ran a story on this: Beheading in Syria Is Called a Mistake with more info from SOHR and "a spokesman for the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, Omar al-Qahtani," who gave a statement in Arabic via Twitter. The victim's name is given as Mohamed Fares Marroush. The fighters who tagged him as an enemy were also supported by a medical aide who had formed the same opinion. What's said in the video as they hold up his head:
 * “If they come here, they won’t differentiate between opposition and government supporters,” said one jihadist in the video, while the other held Mr. Marroush’s head in one hand and a knife in the other. “They will come and rape the men before the women, that’s what these infidels will do. They will rape the men before the women. God make us victorious over them!”

A side-story by NYT shows a video where Marroush specifically "Praises Jihadists Who Later Beheaded Him." ISIS spokesman Qahtani calls Mr. Marroush "our brother" but laments the episode as an unfortunate misunderstanding between fellow Islamist extremists; he "also recounted a religious parable from early Islamic history to urge forgiveness for the killers," the NYT adds. Ahrar al-Sham "released a wanted poster for the two men who appear in the video," but no wider rift between the two groups is likely. "The group has said the men will face a trial in a Shariah court." --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, the ISIS guys were extra mad and looking to vent some frustration over their recent losses to infidel forces in the Aleppo area. As SOHR reported the same day they posted the video:
 * ISIS issues call to arms in Aleppo


 * Aleppo province: The ISIS in Aleppo released a statement confirming that it has lost many casualties during the clashes with regime forces by the 80th brigade base, Tal'aran town and al-Sfeira city. The statement also placed full blam for what it called the "Nuseiri Rafidi army's" retaking of the Khanaser-Sfeira road on the retreat and failure to fight by other rebel groups that it claimed "receives much media sponsorship".


 * The ISIS called on all factions and all muslims to head to the battle fronts to withstand the enemy, and that those who are not capable of physically fighting to support them with weapons and money, if that is not possible than at least support and advice and criticism to the "traitor regime agent sleeper cell groups in the liberated areas" and to inform the ISIS of them.


 * The statement threatened all those, particularly armed factions, who do not respond to this call to the front with disarmament and a trial in the shari'a court.

Also, FWIW, the sharia court doesn't always hand down the verdict ISIS wants, so they sometimes kidnap or execute judges to keep them in line. Seems pretty anarchic. (details later/elsewhere.) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Blowing up Rebel Commanders, Getting Disowned by Al-Qaeda
SOHR Facebook, Feb. 2:
 * Aleppo province : 16 Islamic battalion fighters ( including 2 commanders ) were killed, while 20 were seriously injured, when ISIS fighter detonated himself in the Islamic battalion center in a prison in Al-Ra'ii town, that was after he came to negotiates the Islamic battalions, to make a truce between ISIS and the Islamic battalions, sources reported to SOHR that this was the second time for this fighter to play the negotiator between the two sides, added that the explosion accompanied by car explosion out side the office

Reuters, Feb. 3: Al Qaeda says has no link with Syrian militant group ISIL
 * ''In a message posted on jihadi websites on Monday, the al Qaeda General Command said ISIL "is not a branch of the al Qaeda group.

"...(Al Qaeda) does not have an organizational relationship with it and is not the group responsible for their actions,"''
 * Sorry, you guys are not just playing the bad cops now. You are. You're cut loose. We're saying you're a regime creation. We're still the good Islamist cops, Al Qaeda. Good luck. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Europe
FarsNews mentions:
 * Recently, a senior Free Syrian Army commander said that British nationals in Syria make up the majority of the foreign members of ISIL.


 * "They are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists. We, the Syrian people now experience beheadings, crucifixions, beatings, murders, outdated methods of treating women, an obsolete approach to governing society. Many who participate in these activities are British," Free Syrian Army’s Brigadier-General Abdulellah Basheer wrote in a letter to The Times.


 * According to Basheer, the group is predominantly foreign, with other fighters hailing from France, Germany, and Belgium, as well as a range of countries across the Middle East and Africa.

"Majority" may well be an exaggeration, but it's a start for the topic

Saudi Recruit Speaks

 * MEMRI Video, March 6, from Saudi Arabia, Channel 1: Saudi Internet Celebrity Returning from Syria Jihad: The Factions Fight One Another, Not the Regime A so-called celebrity fighter for al Qaeda speaks on Suadi state TV to encourage the youth to not go to Syria and fight, at all. I hear this was recently enshrined in law, or the law actually announced to be enforced. This guy first had a brother go, using his passport, and died. He was forbidden to go, but found a passport he could use (in a family member's glove box - ?) and went to Turkey. Smuggled into Syria, he was chosen to join ISIS, which he knew nothing about. They used his growing Twitter account, he says, to recruit young men and then to denounce clerics and rulers in the Kingdom and elsewhere for heresy.

These had likely had thought like that before, and perhaps it was known. One way to use ISIS, if it were as some suspect a throwaway operation for achieve other goals, is to absorb Ikhwan spawn and other misfits of the Osama bin Laden or Juayman al-Uteybi sort (in fact, a few Saudis named Uteybi have surfaced in Syria). These are radicals too pure in their religion to tolerate the House of Saud's hypocrisy - an embarrassing side-product their culture keeps turning out, and often sending out to cause problems elsewhere, not at the source. Like the death-row inmates the kingdom has reportedly sent, partly from the same class, it's hoped they'll die there but in a useful way, causing other deaths along the way.

Saudi support to al Qaeda had been perhaps to the good-cop bad-cop sort, boosting Al-Nusra ultimately, and ISIS mainly to make the former look good in comparison. But now they espouse a line of no traveling to Syria, and the unclear number already there are left for Syria to pack up and send home, with what should be increasing ease. The infighting too had looked to solidify JAN's role as the okay al-Qaeda. But one other effect, as this reformed recruit relates (in a pretty vague way, actually) - it became Saudis fighting Saudis, going out of the country to kill each other, when they'd been total strangers before. Each death is one less awkward Syria vet to deal with at home. It's like partial 'self-destruct button' for the whole Jihadists-to-Syria project. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:57, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Until we have a better spot, on the new Saudi anti-Terror laws: This praises an unexpected new law enforcing rules against fighting in Syria, and for that matter declaring the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist group, something even Obama hasn't done, I believe, with his numerous "Ikhwan" advisers and such... One passage deals with the fighters in Syria:
 * New law is a major blow to terrorism - Arab News, March 10
 * Before the new law is fully enforced, the Ministry of Interior is giving Saudis fighting in Syria an escape hatch to “rethink their position and return immediately home” within 15 days. Once the grade period ends, Saudis could face three to 20 years in prison if found guilty of engaging in terrorist or extremist activities.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Saudi Arabia designates Muslim Brotherhood terrorist group - Reuters, March 7

Name Variations

 * ISIS or ISIL? In Feb 2014 Hassan Hassan says ISIS and gives five reasons
 * ISIS or ISIL? The debate over what to call Iraq’s terror group, Ishaan Tharoor, Washington Post, Jun 18, 2014
 * Contrary to AP and others, Washington Post sticks to ISIS citing Hassan Hassan's arguments among others.

Please change topic title
It's ash-Sham not al-Sham in English transliteration and Arabic pronounciation. It's spelled in Arabic (English) as al-Sham but the rules say the laam is dropped and the following consonant doubled when spoken, hence ash-Sham --Charles Wood (talk) 08:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll add that it's often called in Western Media "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" (ISIS) and less often "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL). In Arab media it's DAESH from the transliterated initialisation of the Arabic name. See Origin of name DAESH --Charles Wood (talk) 08:08, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Hey Charles! That's a hot topic on the web at the moment. I moved it here, see above. Just last night I pointed out somewhere else to some know-it-all who insisted that ISIL was the proper English acronym, that in their own propaganda, they call themselves "The Islamic State of Iraq and Sham", with the Sham untranslated and without either al- or ash-. Same in German, their propaganda says "Der Islamische Staat von Irak und Sham". So if we change the topic title, I would propose to drop the "al-" and fulfill their wishes (could be better for our health anyway ;o)). Other opinions? --CE (talk) 10:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * The al in front of names is very often ignored in general Arabic usage. It's simply assumed to be there but not enunciated. However place-names often have it in some form. e.g. Deir Ez-Zour (Deir al-Zour). Most of the references to Sham I've seen have ash-Sham e.g. Ahrar ash-Sham (when not misspelled by the author). My Arabic teacher would say that either is correct in general usage but ash-Sham can never be incorrect as it is more formal and complete. --Charles Wood (talk) 11:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * The main page says "الدولة الاسلامية في العراق والشام‎ ad-Dawla al-Islāmiyya fi al-'Irāq wa-sh-Shām". As a wannabe Arabic speaker I point out wa-sh-Shām wrong. It's literally "wa (and) ash-Sham (the Levant)" so it should be "الدولة الاسلامية في العراق والشام‎ ad-Dawla al-Islāmiyya fi al-'Irāq wa ash-Shām" or "Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" --Charles Wood (talk) 11:38, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Your linked article by Pieter Van Ostaeyen, who's a pro, has it as "as-Shām" in the "English" name, and in the separated transliterated form as "(wa’s-) Shām". I'd say from observation as a non-Arabic speaker that it really doesn't matter much and the habits of transliteration vary wildly, without one objectively correct one. I forgot where I copypasted the stuff on the front page from, but it was a source that appeared knowledgeable to me. --CE (talk) 12:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed - Charles is right enough but it's not too important. The consonant pick-up I'm aware of, though it never seemed a hard rule but more a phoenetic convention (I've seen Al Zawiyah instead of Az, etc.) - it's maybe as important as a page in english with "a" instead of "an" - not worth a page move, which a title change requires. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * The interview with Salih Muslim I linked yesterday uses it exactly like our article is titled now, with "al-". Also the article it links to under that name. Al Monitor is a site that specializes in English translations of Arabic media. So it may not be 100% accurate from some points of view, but it certainly isn't seriously wrong. Therefore I say we keep it as it is. Thanks anyway, Charles. --CE (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I just happened to read this interview with an ISIS fighter. He doesn't care much even about ISIS or ISIL, but uses the short form "Dawla" (State) for his org. As Ostaeyen points out, Da'esh seems to be derogatory. --CE (talk) 12:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Alternate Sponsorship Theories
(didn't ewe have a section of this? Or was that only with JaN?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

- Sipan Hemo, Rudaw interview: Intrigues with intel and cynicical realism to conclude everyone but the Kurds is behind ISIS, but mainly...
 * ISIS was shaped by some powers about a year and a half ago to carry out their plans in Syria. ISIS isn’t a random Al-Qaeda organization. We have intelligence on them. There are documents that we acquired. There are also the statements taken from members we captured. When we put all these pieces together, we reached to the conclusion that ISIS was directed under the command of some intelligence services and their agents to implement the policies of certain states in Syria. The most recent developments, as well as what occurred earlier, prove that our theory is correct. 
 * Ooh! States, interests! Intriguing! We know who, but how does he say it?
 * ... what seems clear from their actions on the ground is that this organization is at the service of several intelligence agencies and it acts in accordance with their interests. Specifically, there are some western countries — along with the Turkish state on one side and Iran, Iraq and Syria on the other — that have their own plans and calculations over ISIS. In a way, ISIS was merely turning itself into a stick made of fire and everybody was willing to use this stick against one another. They were taking steps in this direction. In other words, these intelligence services have attempted to use this cruel, terrorist structure — created by those who don’t know anything about humanity, leave alone civil law — against one another and against the people in the region. 
 * Ah, impressively even-handed realpolitik cynicism. Some will find that convincing.
 * ... I want to state my views without lending credence to conspiracy theories: Iran, Iraq and Syria are parts of this plan. On the other hand, Turkey and other powers that are working together were also aware of this plan; they even took part in it in one way or another. Iran believes that the more the Middle East is dragged into a quagmire and chaos, the better their chances of ... (some alleged motive given)
 * Not remotely explained: how the Shia and allied villains maneuver Turkey, KSA, Jordan, France, etc. to keep helping these groups move in and out of Syria and Iraq, buying their fleets of white Toyota ratmobiles, and maintaining the chaos they need to function, withholding/denying the air power ISIS could hardly live with (consider: delaying and threatening to stop Iraq's acquirement of fighter jets at this time, while supplying allied rebels in Syria more weapons to take down aircraft in either country, really. How does Iran, Iraq, and Syria team up to get these things done and get their (fake? Acting?) Sunni extremists on the fields... They're so ebull they can defy the laws of reason and even physics probably! This Hemo clown preceded his transparent nonsense with: "I want to state my views without lending credence to conspiracy theories." No credence lent, IMO. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you don't interpret too much into what he says. To me it seems to end at "for some goals of Iran, Iraq and Syria, ISIS is a convenient tool, while others drive them". Which isn't far-fetched. But the CT you seem to read certainly has some proponents. Just came across a debunking of it: Iran And ISIS – Convenience Is The Enemy Of Research
 * This is symptomatic of a growing movement within some analysis circles—most notably in a much shared think-piece by Pinhas Inbari for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs entitled "ISIS: Iran's Instrument for Regional Hegemony?" published but four days before the FP piece—pushing for acceptance of some vast regional conspiracy, led by Iran to seed discord within the Middle East using ISIS as a knowing or unknowing agent to fulfill Iran's secret master-plan.
 * Stopped reading around when he also dismissed the Turkey connection, but for the record... --CE (talk) 21:30, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That could make sense, but it seem he's not talking hypotheticals. Paperwork proves certain states, he says, and Iran Iraq and Syria ARE part of it (I'd love to see these papers!), implicitly the original ones, with the others just tagging along and using it a bit. Glad Tamimi dismisses it, but that just shows it is to Syria studies what "TV fakery" is to 9/11. Obviously he's not to be trusted just because he can dismiss the dumbest of the dumb. He'll follow it saying Turkey's not involved or something lame. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:29, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Sheikh Nabeel Naiem interview

 * ISIS: The Bombshell Interview to Impeach Obama – syrianews.cc, July 3, 2014
 * ''After Osama Bin Laden’s death Al-Qaeda was bought by the Qatari Intelligence, and I tell you during the International Conference of Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood) in Istanbul, Qatar decided to create a fund to sponsor Free Egyptian Army and paid 1 billion dollar for it, and the person in charge of this fund is Ali Kurrah Zadah, Muslim Brotherhood official in Turkey, this is the finance.
 * ''Genghis Khan used to enter a village and annihilate all living in it, even animals he’d slaughter it, and burn down the houses, so the next village hears that Genghis Khan is coming they flee away and this is what ISIS is doing in Iraq, and what’s the goal of ISIS? When ISIS entered Samerra they killed a thousand Sunni, and now killing Shiites, and this is the American policy.

More atrocity videos
A new Syrian Girl account has posted two more atrocity videos on YouTube. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:18, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * AlQaeda Strangle Syrian Woman in Manbij, Aleppo Syria
 * Warning 18+: FSA Al Qaeda 'Jabhit Al Nasra' Brigade killing Syrian civilians


 * Both saved over here if needed. The second one, a beheading, fierce but different than usual - hard hits with a sword, from the back. Pretty quick, considering. Usually we see a knife, sawing throat-first, and getting slowed down at the spinal cord. Brutal. This I think is more professional. Nine strokes, 8 seconds, for anyone keeping tabs. I saw this recently on the Twitter feed of "Prez Jarba." He said it was from Libya, but made some snarky point about Syria, and I thought it was Libya, partly by being different. Derna it said, and could be Al-Bayda or maybe Derna (a pretty green strip). I'm out of touch with Libyan beheading styles. But of course that's joke account and if anything else says Syria, it's probably so. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)


 * First video, strangulation, oh my. That is very sad to watch and not necessary for many. So pathetic. I guess they have some kind of cord around her neck, as she kneels. One guy holds it tight and jerks her around a little as she strains and slowly suffocates. A poor, slight woman, her hands aren't tied but somehow she doesn't resist. Her hands go up slightly once, then she forces them back down and just waits as passively as possible. The first jerk of being choked, I think, is at 0:09, last faint movements at about 1:10. Did they tell her her children would die if she resisted? Jeez I have a dark imagination, possibly even adequate to comprehend this stuff as it is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... The fact is, that your verbal description of the video is more disturbing than watching the video. (Having seen the video two days ago.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:34, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The one part, yeah (see below). Otherwise, I found it pretty disturbing in a way that's hard to overstate. Dead bodies are just things, but seeing a living person struggling with the dying process, or with a grave injury, is what upsets me. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:23, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That said, with a little more thought, simple futility could explain her hands going back down. Why prolong it? It takes a full minute as it is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:59, 14 February 2014 (UTC)