Talk:Attack on convoy near Novosvetlovaka

Something happened near Lugansk on August 18th

Context
A thousand strong force of Ukraine troops has been enveloped at the Lugansk airport south of the city since the start of the conflict. In August the Ukrainian forces have tried a breakthrough to the pocket whereby encircling Lugansk from the west. As a result of these operations the Aidar battalion and parts of the 80th Brigade have been able to enter and replenish the pocket. Also the pocket has been extended to the west to Lutugino / Lutuhyne on the H21 main road from Lugansk to Donetsk. On August 13th as the Russian aid convoy was about to arrive in Lugansk Aidar Battalion attacked and took Novosvetlovaka on the M04 / E40 road from Krasnodon on the Russian border to Lugansk. Heavy fighting in the area continued for several days. On August 18 a unit of the Aidar Battalion that had been boxed broke out of the village of Komissarovka and retreated to Novosvetlovaka.
 * Батальон Айдар попал в засаду к террористам в с. Комиссаровка. Краснодон. Луганск 18.08.14 (Aidar battalion was ambushed by terrorists in a. Komissarovka. Krasnodon. Lugansk 08/18/14)
 * ''During bypass position at the forefront of the Ukrainian army under Lugansk, we accidentally went the wrong way and got into the territory controlled by terrorists with. Komisarovka (Krasnodon district). Through determination battalion Aydar C. Melnychuk we were able to quickly break through the occupied village and lossless enter controlled by the National Guard under Novosvetlovku.


 * Батальон Айдар прорвался из Комиссаровки в Новосветловку. Луганск 18.08.14 (Aidar battalion broke out in Komissarovka Novosvetlovku. Lugansk 08/18/14)
 * Батальон Айдар зачищает Луганск и задерживает сбегающих террористов. 18.08.14 (Battalion Aidar Lugansk cleans and prevents running down terrorists. 08/18/14)
 * ''In operations on the outskirts of Luhansk stripping participates personally combat Aydar C. Melnychuk. terrorists escape from the city under the guise of civilians!

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Something happened?
"Ukraine: rebels shelled refugees with Grad, many killed" --Chingachgook (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC) CNN'ed--Chingachgook (talk) 17:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This Khryaschuvate and Novosvitlivka story is a different incident. It seems to have freshly happened on Aug 17, which is after the other video was posted, showing damage that was not recent (eg bodies had been removed etc).
 * It is a major difficulty that everyone in the area is using identical weaponry, so there is no forensic way to be sure who caused which damage. It can be determined only by eyewitness accounts (which as we know may be disinformation) or by video evidence where the originals are published, to ensure no falsification happened. We'll never know the whole truth. KatKan (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This seems to have been refugees in MILITARY VEHICLES equipped with white flags. Wonder if that's visible from Grad-aiming distance? Total dead ten?? hinted at here in Telegraph
 * From Pravda as mentioned in Telegraph
 * "'Він також зауважив, що колона містила всі розпізнавальні знаки, необхідні для біженців із мирного населення. На транспорті були білі прапори та позначки, що пересувається мирне населення. Транспорт для біженців збирали, як могли. Зокрема, вантажівки надали військові.'" which google says is "'He also noted that the column contains all markings needed for refugees from the civilian population. In transport were white flags and tags that moves civilians. Transport for refugees gathered as they could. In particular, given the military trucks.'"
 * "When asked about the number of victims, Lysenko said: "It's ten."

KatKan (talk) 20:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

We are having here an allegation of civilians killed by combatants from the same pro-Russian camp. Suggesting killing of those civilians was intentional would be simply insane. Whether or not this allegation is true, unfortunately,  tragic mistakes do happen in wars, and this should be an argument to stop the military phase, not to an excuse to prolong it. Details of what happened are unclear, and may be clarified when hostilities stopped. Unfortunately civilians die every day in shelling of cities, and this does not attract too much media coverage. UN: around 60 people on average are killed per day. Grad listed range is 15 km, would you see a flag from 15 km? I doubt. It is doing "carpet-bombing", multiple launch of unguided missiles, similar to Katiusha in WW2. They would cover a wide area and there would be no clue where exactly those would missiles would land --Chingachgook (talk) 03:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC) It's time to make peace and figure that out. --Chingachgook (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It would need to be a peace in which the Donbass areas are rebuilt, not left to rot for 'having supported the terrorists", and in which no extreme punitive measures are taken against anyone proven to have fought on the non-Government side (not to mention those merely accused of it). Current rhetoric would not be giving the separatists much hope for such a peace. A peace without figuring it out would be better, unless they can manage something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation. Without reconciliation, the seeds of future problems will keep germinating. Residents who did not fight, but saw Government actions destroying their homes and lives, would also need some way to regain trust in the Government.KatKan (talk) 21:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I mean cease-fire basically (ultimate peace is unclear but continued killing has no sense). Something appears on-going, we will see, can't sort this for them --Chingachgook (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * for example, exactly what is the point in pushing news that one Russians killed another Russians, no matter of what particular details of that might actually be ? (Rebels denied doing it).--Chingachgook (talk) 00:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking from outside it may be all Russians. To them "Russians" are the ones who live in Russia. The separatists are "terrorists" who, although aided by Russia, are Ukrainian. Indeed they are, by citizenship and many generations of living there, and they did not like being under Soviet rule nor would like it again. The ones who remember those days are mostly gone. They want independence from the western part which discriminates against them for being Russian speaking. There are Polish and Hungarian speaking minorities, too, many generations, left over from when those countries had control. The whole poor country was under other peoples' heels for a long time.
 * Anyway the "junta" is not thinking straight. All they want is chances to make the "terrorists" look bad, and killing fleeing civilians does the trick. If it's their own civilians that makes them look so much worse. It very well COULD be a response to the Rozspyne video we had 2 days ago. Mostly this propaganda is not for us, it is for internal consumption by their own people in the west... who just kicked out one President and might kick out another, USA wishes notwithstanding, if they find out what's really going on. KatKan (talk) 04:44, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I gather there are some rather slight cultural differences; Solzhenitsyn who was of mixed Russian and Ukrainian background had attempted an answer. Not exactly sure what the answer was but along the lines that everybody, or everyplace, needs to figure this out themselves. He did feel strong tension a long time ago, but that was a bit exaggerated for most, until very recently. But we are not on that  page yet. We are on the page where there is a rather bloody and rather dumb shoot-out between "terrorists" and "fascists"  getting their news from distinct news providers (and/or having distinct funding sources and/or having slightly different opinions on historical facts. Language appears more of a pose, at this point in time). And we are trying to figure out (I really hope we do) how on hell can we have that shooting stop.  --Chingachgook (talk) 07:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering Poroschenko threatened ""The militants will pay tens and even hundreds of their own lives for the life of each of our soldiers" which was widely published on Russian language sites, the separatists are not likely to just give up, for fear of themselves, their families and their towns, being even more badly shot up than now. Such reprisals for killings by partisans used to be standard procedure for the Nazis everywhere, too, and thousands of Ukrainians died that way.


 * Rebels giving up does not appear very likely to me, they got a backing


 * Or they could just ignore the area and let them die of hunger, as millions did in the war and 10 million courtesy of Stalin's famines in the 1930's.
 * They won't die from hunger, they sit on the border with Russia.


 * They're on the way to that already. Today starving half a country becomes more easily known and objected to by the world. It is easier and faster to kill the troublemakers with artillery, and blame them for causing it themselves, which is also being done already. Neither side has incentives to stop. Both sides are supported by powerful outsiders for their own reasons. Both outsiders are demanding the other stop the support, not to end the killing but to end it with their proteges winning.


 * Even a ceasefire would need peacekeepers on the ground. It can't be NATO as it is not neutral. They would have to be UN peacekeepers. Both the powerful outsiders have veto powers there. Donbass will not accept disarmament


 * No way


 * without guarantees Kiev will not give. They were the ones who broke even the small-area "MH17 ceasefire".


 * All Kiev is achieving by trying to win by force is making it last longer. People burned out of their homes and lands have little else to do but join the fight, from anger. Every defeat of Kiev puts more weapons into Donbass hands, even if they get no more outside support. Meanwhile refugees in Russia are being trained to come back to fight. Perhaps Europe should put together a humanitarian aid convoy, rather than provoking Russia with sanctions. Ukraine is their buffer against Russia,if they are afraid. It would make more sense to build Ukraine up, not let it get destroyed and torn in half. I don't know how this will end but it doesn't look good whichever way it goes. KatKan (talk) 09:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Proxy war between Russia and XXX (enter a choice here) is not my most favorite scenario. This is creating another Syria (or another un-favorite place of choice), at a gross waste of lives and resources . (I am starting to get worried are all those guys actually capable to find a shortcut, they seem to be sitting in the woods and appear too busy pushing some bloody nonsense)


 * Actually, military option was played up once already with the first Rada, and nutcases like Dugin (who might be smth like Putin's Rasputin) would know all of that much better than myself --Chingachgook (talk) 12:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It's at or past time for a peace discussion page. Maybe with a dedicated space we could come up with a useful plan. (I'd join in) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hm, a strangely similar scene described, but placed way north, emerging at the same time, but with no pictures. TSN video for the story - no images there. Chances are good it's the same incident they're trying to re-brand. Remaining chances are dominated by it being a second incident of the same sort. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Total debunk attempt here: Aidar Battalion used human shields or something... Adults and children were separated... Evidently there was a photo somewhere, but I did no see it. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Обстрел из градов колонны беженцев (минирасследование) (Use Yandex translate)
 * Sounded like human shields to me, when it first said they were in military vehicles with white flags. yeah sure. This is a "pictures or it didn't happen" war. where are the pictures of the Russian convoy destroyed on the border 2 days ago? there were Western journalists with the aid convoy, they saw military vehicles going past, surely one would have gone back to snap the destruction?
 * One comment in the links below says there was one photo -- a few months old file photo of a Grad being fired.
 * This site has pictures, mostly gory ones of dead people, with no context. But there are short descriptions of fighting, village by village, which can be read without viewing the videos. Original and Yandex translation
 * As Petri noted, the above article seems to say there is/was a photo, but it doesn't appear. I searched around, no luck. It seems there's no photo or video, supporting that Kiev controls the crime scene - because it's Kiev that apparently hopes there never will be any: AFP: ""We ask that any videos from the scene are not released to the public, because they are atrocious," (Lysenko) added." Are they trying to hide a lack of evidence? I suspect the Lugansk crime is not made up - someone did just do that. But it seems they're experimenting with a no visuals approach, hoping it works and can become standard, to clamp down early on access to info for "social media sleuths" - they fear what bits of the truth could do during the occupation and filtration to come. Blind faith will be needed, and maybe here they're test-driving the blindfold. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * 15 bodies recovered from refugee convoy attack Reuters via CBC Aug 19, 2014 3:28 AM ET
 * "By 7 p.m. last night we retrieved 15 bodies ... The search continued into the night and is continuing today," the spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, told Reuters.
 * Ukraine accused pro-Russia separatists of the attack on a convoy fleeing the besieged rebel-held city. The rebels denied any attack took place, while the U.S. confirmed the shelling of the convoy but said it did not know who was responsible.
 * Uh, the ones with the Russian guns, dummies. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

From Dmitry Tymchuk's Facebook page: Translating Voices of Ukraine - Official
 * ''1. During a withdrawal of refugees from the settlements of Khryashchuvate and Novosvitlivka near Luhansk, insurgents struck the convoy with a massive attack of mortars and “Grads.” The convoy was moving under white flags, but this did not save it from almost total destruction. Dozens of civilians, many [of them] children were killed.
 * ''We are accustomed to the fact that the insurgents deliberately fire at the houses of local residents, at [combat] ambulances with the wounded, and use peaceful civilians as human shields. But today’s occurrence is the apotheosis of savagery and villainy. This is the very essence of terrorism under the Russian flag.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels Blame Kiev?
It's being reported that both sides blame each other for this latest atrocity. Note: in a blame-game for a crime, the criminal will be the one who knows the most and can give you the most detail, especially about stuff like how the victims were divided up, what they were told and believed, what clor flags they were flying, etc. Maybe for that faintly understood reason, both sides are presented as blaming each other for a crime they both must know all about. An AFP piece reports "The rebel leader of neighbouring "Donetsk People's Republic", Alexander Zakharchenko, flatly denied any attacks on civilians, blaming Kiev's own troops for the strike." But then it doesn't show him doing that -rather, he says "not a single convoy of refugees was shot at in the Lugansk region," by anyone.

And while the above sounds pretty certain, on balance they really don't seem to know just yet what, if anything, happened there. One report everyone seems to be citing is Reuters' Ukraine, rebels accuse each other of attacking refugee bus convoy which no longer works. There are mirrors of it, but slightly different. Today's Zaman:
 * ...the separatists denied responsibility.
 * A senior rebel leader denied his forces had the military capability to conduct such an attack, and accused the government of regularly attacking the area including with Russian-made Grad missiles.
 * “The Ukrainians themselves have bombed the road constantly with airplanes and Grads. It seems they've now killed more civilians like they've been doing for months now. We don't have the ability to send Grads into that territory,” said Andrei Purgin, deputy prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic.
 * read: he gives credence to the claim people were just shelled on the road, and precedent says it was the Kiev thugs like usual. But once again, he's not clearly accusing them of a crime based on direct knowledge (like how the victims were set up, what nationality of weapons were used, etc.), when he only says it "seems" there was such a crime - based on Kiev's accusation that his side did it. It's a guess.--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Global Post adds: "Another rebel spokesman (app. Zakharchenko?) denied any civilian convoy had been struck, challenging the Kyiv authorities to produce evidence." This one is a little less accepting of Kiev's claim, and reasonably so.

A Kyiv Post article also makes sure to claim both sides blame each other, without backing it up: Rockets reportedly kill fleeing civilians in eastern Ukraine; Kyiv, insurgents swap blame
 * ...rebel leaders say Ukrainian government forces were behind the deadly rocket attack. Konstantin Knyrik, a rebel spokesperson, dismissed Kyiv’s claims, telling Russia’s Interfax news agency “such claims are pure propaganda.

"Pure propaganda" suggests words only, not a real false flag crime. Then Purgin's observation of how precedent plus the alleged shelling of refugees made it initially seem to him. That's closer to the mark, but not much of a counter-accusation. And that presumptive educated guess is the closest they can get. Kiev alone is the side in this that's both a little too informed and a bit too shrill for comfort. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * On the missing Reuters article: Kyiv Post uses the same title, but is paywalled. Text search brings up Reuters on Newsweek. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:32, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Side-note: No one is asking Lugansk Peoples' Republic leaders - a couple Donetsk leaders, who wouldn't even be in the clearest spot to know, are quoted. Is the LPR that broken up already? Kiev is saying they've raised the flag in Lugansk city, downtown I guess, and a mop-up shy of final victory. (true or not, people fleeing got killed, which does sometimes happen at "liberation" time) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Right now there is less fighting in Donetsk, so that is a safer and easier place to get hold of leaders to interview. If there were journalists in Luhansk they could have gone and taken photos of the massacre for themselves. Safely, the day after. So looks like "media blackout" might work. I hope at least the journos have those hand-wound camping phone battery chargers. KatKan (talk) 12:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * On the general Battle situation: Novorossiya ("NAF") is winning. The 30. Battalion got wiped out just yesterday. Out of 4,700 men that went in last week only 83 "deserters" came out. Also the 24th, 25th, 51st, 72nd, 79th, and 80th battalions have been destroyed. Did I leave out anyone? Yes, the 95th might be still somewhere. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess we should start a page on Ukraine war casualties. The real number are the most closely guarded state secret. Hiding the losses plays a central part in the "false-flag" narrative of MH17. Without understanding the catastrophic military situation, it is impossible to understand why Ukraine would want to shoot down MH17. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * sorry, I accidentally made this page. I already put on it an article which claims to know how big the forces are currently.KatKan (talk) 19:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Luhansk Ghost Town video KatKan (talk) 19:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem, Petri even asked for it. It's great to have you and Chingachgook around and you are very welcome to add your content on both existing and new pages. We have always struggled a bit to attract new contributors but the idea of this has been from the beginning about a collaborative research effort without a "party line" (beyond the general spirit of the mission statement). --CE (talk) 21:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Graham Phillips is in Lugansk now, brave soul. Not much life there, but also no Kiev forces to be seen anywhere. Lysenko and the other clowns are lying as usual. --CE (talk) 18:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Something from Donetsk, dated 15.08.2014 - 15:11 by rebels today --Chingachgook (talk) 21:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)