Talk:Attempted military coup in Turkey, July 15, 2016

While it happened/General thoughts

 * Persicope TV Erdogan interviewed via smartphone
 * Military helicopter shoots at people -video inside report
 * More video reports,-Mirror
 * John McLaughlin, former CIA deputy director, comments on the Turkish coup attempt., with Bloomberg's Mark Crumpton.
 * "Turkey's state agency Anadolu reports that the army's jets are flying over the capital Ankara to "neutralise" helicopters being used by those behind the coup. Anadolu names the group "Feto", which is what Turkey's government calls the Hizment movement run by the cleric Fetullah Gulen", and more live updates on BBC --Resup (talk) 23:30, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Gulen denied involvement.


 * 16 July updates. Coup appears to be failing - 'Leaders Say Coup Foiled'--Resup (talk) 08:26, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It is said that coup 'rebels' captured Turkish frigate Yavuz, presumably  with anti -ship missiles Harpoon and anti-aircraft Sea Sparrow . Senior commander said to be captured too.  (Meanwhile elsewhere coup appeares to fail). --Resup (talk) 12:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Erdogan announces the coup has failed, blames people in Pennsylvania (meaning Gulen, who denies involvement). Soldiers surrender en masse on the Bosprous bridge. It's said the helicopter killed several policemen but was then shot down by a fighter jet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:45, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Bahar Kimyongur tweets news of the aftermath, as mosques broadcast calls for jihad against the putschists, and jihadists "massacre" them while crying Allahu Akbar. We see the soldiers grabbed by the mob, beaten and stomped after surrendering, detained in a mosque, killed in a bloody manner, (here too) killed somehow, etc. Also, hundreds were arrested. Wider arrests and killings could continue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:45, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Noting how badly it failed, how poorly it went for the putschists, and how it might strengthen Erdogan's image, cartoonist Carlos Latuff and Kimyongur re-tweet) (and I) find it worth wondering if this was an engineered coup. Erdogan loves to arrest military people for alleged coup plots. This should be his biggest haul yet, and might finally purge things adequately, if he can get enough Islamists recruited to replace them. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:45, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Notably Latuff drew the cartoon already last evening while the news of a coup attempt was just breaking, long before it was clear that it would fail. So at least good intuition, and it certainly isn't far-fetched that Erdogan and his cronies would pull something like this off and lure actual military willing to putsch into joining. Nice teamwork on banning that smart bot btw... ;oD --CE (talk) 12:51, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * ;oD --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:58, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Latuff instincts: seem good here, but FTR he has moments at least where his instincts failed him, when presented with tempting tales of barbarism from Syria: Hamza al-Khatib cartoon vs. the evidence, which would not so easily translate into a cartoon, and for good reason. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * In Russian sources, competing conspiracy theories float, one line similar to the above ("Coup" in Turkey: clownery for Erdogan), pointing to seemingly inept actions of the plotters.  Another line,  Kadyrov and others ) call the plotters 'pro-Western military' aiming to undermine 'independent line' assigned to Erdogan, sort of incomplete Turkish Maidan, and -  implied if not said--with the same foreign sponsor.   Alleged leaders are said to be Muharrem Köse, an air force colonel, and some others (also here), possibly pro-Western, or can be pro civil state, like it was before Erdogan. - I am yet to subscribe to a theory what was this really about. --Resup (talk) 14:26, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * One more version, pro-Islamist plotters pretending to be pro-Ataturk, clearing some space for themselves  ...the statement of the junta, that was forcefully read on the official government TV as the coup got under way, bore a strong resemblance to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's famous address to the Turkish Youth. The coup plotters also called themselves the "Peace at Home Council", which is derived from Ataturk's famous saying "Peace At Home, Peace In the World"  --Resup (talk) 18:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Also, some say - but I found no primary source yet - that at least some participating soldiers thought they were taking part in an exercise. --CE (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * This seems to be true, heard it from several sources now, including from the author of two read-worthy, detailed articles on Al-Monitor here and there. That's pretty close to the "official story", and I must say it's rather plausible. Strange case of "conspiracy theorists" buying the official story - I'm in good company with Sibel Edmonds and James Corbett. ;o) --CE (talk) 18:25, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * According to those reports, coup was discovered and started earlier than planned (evening instead of very early morning, heavy traffic instead of people at homes), contributing to the failure. Soldiers may be unaware of the overall operation and whether or not this is a training (that's quite typically the case, receiving orders without much explanations from commanding officers). --Resup (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't comment, but it sounds quite likely, and consistent with the fake event I suspect. It's an easy way to just get some soldiers to appear, they know not why, at the right spots to make it seem like a real coup is underway. If part of a real event, what was their standing order if they faced resistance? Were their rifles even loaded? I suspect, if they had seen the news broadcasts announcing a coup, or the call to go oppose it, they would have all agreed to abandon the 'exercise.' But they only learned when the mob was upon them. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * One odd thing that could point to fake is Erdogan's flight back to Istanbul, which people like this German blogger detected while they were spotting the Turkish airspace on flightradar24.com. Apparently he started in a Gulfstream 4 registered openly as Turkish Government plane at 1:43 am local time from near his holiday place, while airspace in the whole region was blocked for civilian planes and empty, and landed after some extensive circling at 3:19 am in Istanbul to be welcomed as hero by his adoring masses. Apparently MIT put out some story later that the plane was somehow masked as commercial so the rogue F16's having it in sight didn't dare to shoot it down. --CE (talk) 23:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Aha, pretending to be the last civilian plane loitering around ... but the other plane he was in wasn't there, so ... unless he had several decoys up (could be), this might make no sense. It's also said the coup jets could have shot him down but were too slow and missed him "by minutes." I'll bet soon we'll "learn" that the Russians jammed their radar to protect their emergent ally from those rogue "CIA pilots." --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, what you wished for is here  already. They used the M-phone (for Medvedev), looking at the secret illustration provided. --Resup (talk) 14:33, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I didn't cheer for this attempt, by the way. The timing was so weird I wondered just who this was and where it would go (I suspected it would succeed, tho - small surprise there). Consider how it went backwards of what happened in Egypt (which I still cheer, btw - democracy is the right way until it turns too stupid and evil for toleration, which in Turkey was a few years ago...). In Egypt, the Islamist elected president was deposed as he deepened his projects at home and started declaring war on Syria. Here, Erdogan has been making the news for kind of the opposite - taking on ISIS, maybe for real, especially after getting hit back already, apologizing to Russia, approving Kurdish stuff, and maybe even normalizing relations with Syria. Hey, can an asshole finally learn he's being an asshole, nobody wants him, and actual change? (mmm... we'll see). But WHY was right now the time to finally get rid of the guy? I was wondering if it was his own hard-line allies. Still not clear who it was, all in all. They have bad prediction of success vs. failure, and bad timing (that is, if their real goal was to oust Erdogan). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:10, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I was watching CNN Türk for hours live while "Soldiers" went inside (I did not see them), to stop the broadcast, some time after the newsspeaker was gone in a loud argument, you heard a huge crowd screaming "Türkiye bismillah Allahu-Akbar...", one guy appeared was phoning then in front of camera screamed takbir, and the usual stuff, really scary. These were not what I`d call religious people - just a mob abusing the fascist components of this religion similar to Al-Qaeda. Earlier one woman had to read a statement of the coup group - where they claimed the reason, was Erdogans wars, the resulting loss of lives, and the damage he did to foreign relations of Turkey, as justification for their action - FriedemannWo
 * Not clear what all that means, but the forced broadcasting at least partly fits the bill of a shady operation: you might appeal to real problems with a fake solution that leads people into a trap, led by certain people willing to set those other people up and make them look bad... --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:21, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Confronted with growing suspicions he engineered the events himself, Erdogan told a CNN International interviewer "Unfortunately, that is only misinformation. How can you plan such a thing? How can you allow so many civilians to lose their lives? How can human conscience allow that? That is beyond possible." He doesn't ask why would anyone do that - this part makes perfect sense. So he plays the morality card. "Tayyip Erdogan and his friends, his colleagues would be the first ones to reject that kind of idea. We risk our lives for the people," he added. The denial was widely re-published by pro-Erdogan media, as if it really disproved the claims. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

For comparison, see Talk:March 2014 false flag plan

Saved by Russia?

 * This article, following some FARS publications, advances theory that Russian signal intelligence intercepted coup messages and warned Erdogan. May be impossible to tell whether true or not; after something happened, does not take much to claim credit, with benefits.  --Resup (talk) 16:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, it's an Erdogan ploy to cozy up to Moscow, or threaten to for leverage with the West. And he's hoping to use them, hoping they 'confirm' this clue that his fake plot was real. It's also said Gulenists violated orders to shoot down the SU-22 (and forced Erdogan to be so belicose, and to not arrest them until just now?) In this nutso version, sounding like it's citing Russian official sources, it was "CIA pilots." And the same ones who tried but failed to shoot down Erdogan during the coup? What? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I remembered seeing this earlier in Russian press with less detail, and had an impression that it was coming from Russian sources; but turns out that it was still based on the same source, FARS, quoting information provided by 'diplomatic source in Ankara' to some 'Arab mass media', so apparently by Turkey indeed... That does not exclude Russia actually passing on available information to Turkey at some point, but that could be late enough when it was happening on the ground and in the air already, and was not too valuable.  In case of Yanukovich, Russia later claimed being well aware of dangers awaiting him, so being aware is not too wild just by itself.-- But in this case, seems that the claim is not coming from Russia --Resup (talk) 00:59, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Deaths and Injuries
Early official toll from Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım: 208 were killed, including 60 police officers, three soldiers, and 145 civilians. Some 1,491 people were also wounded. (Hurriyet) Later it was 256 dead, then at least 290 according to a foreign ministry statement, including "190 citizens," as RTE reports it... The how, when, where and why of so many killed civilians/citizens is of interest, and not clear yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

One interesting case: Erol Olcak, an AKP ally "described as "masterminding" President Erdogan's presidential campaign in 2014 by Turkish media," killed along with his 16-year-old son. Erdogan broke down in near-tears at his friend's funeral. (RTE) They were "shot dead on the Bosphorous bridge," near the known assemblage of mutinying soldiers (whose rifles may have been unloaded for the exercise - confirmation pending on that), apparently on Friday night. "They had been on the bridge to protest against the putsch launched by a group within the military, according to local media."

I guess they were not shot by those soldiers, but picked of by sniper rounds, fired from an unseen position at one end of the bridge. Or, they weren't even on the bridge, next to the soldiers that, most were to presume, were staging a real coup. Those might try to arrest or shoot political figures like himself. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Video "proof" of criminal coup violence:
 * On the bridge over the Bosphorus army shooting protesters #turkey #istanbul
 * Turkish Coup - Jets Flying Over Ankara - Istanbul Bosphorus Bridge Blocked (also shows helicopter firing on something distant)

Purge Victims
Arrests and dismissals: Soldiers, police, judges, other (forthcoming)


 * Israel National News:
 * On Monday, European Union commissioner Johannes Hahn said the rapid mass arrests immediately following the coup attempt suggested the purges were pre-planned. “It looks at least as if something has been prepared. The lists are available, which indicates it was prepared and to be used at a certain stage. I’m very concerned. It is exactly what we feared.”


 * Similar concerns aired by a lawmaker with the MP of the Social Democratic Party of Austria, Stefan Schennach, to Rusian agency Sputnik on Sunday.


 * Euronews report July 19 that just within three days since the incidents, tens of thousands of (culprits?) in all sectors of society had been suspended, fired, or jailed. What a wide-ranging conspiracy! It's like half of Turkish society (the non-Islamist half) was behind the idiotic thing and would have to go bye-bye forever, to make way for an Islamic state. As Euronews reports it:

--Caustic Logic (talk) 08:07, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

"Diplomatic sources speaking to Anadolu Agency said Mehmet Cahit Bakir, a major general in command of the Afghanistan Turkish Task Force, and Sener Topuc, a brigadier general in command of the "Train, Advise and Assist Command" in Kabul, were detained at Dubai international airport. The two were held by Emirati security services and deported to Turkey, where they faced questioning in Ankara on Tuesday morning." --CE (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Turkish generals detained by UAE as coup crackdown continues, Middle East Eye, July 26, 2016

Alleged WhatsApp conversation of coup plotters
There has been a leak of a WhatsApp chatroom conversation allegedly by the Istanbul cell of the coup plotters covering several hours from the beginning of events. Some person on twitter has translated it into English (raw data) and Christiaan Triebert has analysed it and just published the result on Brown Noses (aka bellingcat). Didn't have the time to read it so far, but looks very detailed and the author has made a competent and relatively unbiased impression on me so far, against my strong dislike for that outlet and its Guru. --CE (talk) 22:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


 * And here's video. Could be, but some things appear strange. Why what's up, as far as I know ( not being into it at all) it is not encrypted while there are encrypted alternatives, why heavily text based conversations while kicking the road, and why giving full names and military ranking (and especially in an open channel communication)? Publication source adds some uneasiness too. Maybe somebody wants to claim who the plotters were, or who they were not, or insert in a particular version of events for a similar reason, with all the boring crosschecking to make it all look verified and obscure the real point. FWIW. (Admittedly not my favorite source, too. As somebody said, never trust (the services), --even when they are telling the truth). --Resup (talk) 00:51, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


 * WhatsApp switched to encrypted communication sometime after the Snowden leaks, and from what I've heard the tech is properly implemented (edit: properly since April 2016). Still haven't read the thing. Good point on the full names and ranks. --CE (talk) 01:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Read it now. Fits with the info from the Al Monitor articles and events known from other sources. There are actually two sources for the conversation: A video which shows scrolling through the first 90 minutes of it in WhatsApp on a smart phone, published on twitter the morning after the coup attempt, and a transcript leaked to Al Jazeera published two days later, which starts where the video ends. On the former one can see that many participants just show up as phone numbers, and the others seem to be identified with name and (somtimes) rank because they are in the address book of the phone owner. The Al Jazeera transcript seems to be from the investigation, based on the content of several phones of detained people and has names, ranks and phone numbers. The translator and/or the author of the article seem to have identified almost all writers of the first part by cross-referencing with the second part and/or clues from the conversation itself. Can't see any red flags here, plausible. --CE (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Alleged coup coordinator is retired US General
Hardcore AKP-supporting newspaper Yeni Safak claims (archived) that "the man behind the coup" is one General John F. Campbell, retired. Planning and coordination from Incirlik airbase. Further is claimed that a 80 people CIA special team funneled 2 billion $ through a Nigerian bank to the coup plotters and people who needed to be "convinced" in the six months leading to the attempt. --CE (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The general denied involvement --Resup (talk) 23:25, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Missing helicopters

 * One landed in Greece;
 * "42 helicopters missing" " from Incirlik Air Base" Sputnik News, 17 July, 2016
 * "Two helicopters, 25 special forces personnel missing after Turkey’s failed coup attempt", Hurriyet Daily News, 19 July, 2016
 * --Resup (talk) 23:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)