Talk:Rozsypne Road of Death

Time and context?
The place is what is now known as "Southern Cauldron 2.0". Ukrainian forces attacked the area soon after the last batch of the three-and-a-half brigades trapped in the border area had either surrender or escaped to Russia. (Of the original 6,000 troops some 3,000 lost their lives.) The attack seems to have happened on August 6th with more movement on August 9-10. The "cauldron" was again sealed off with NAF taking the Marinovka border crossing on August 13th. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

What the hell is this?

 * (moved from Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Map)


 * Ukraine Crisis | Near Rassypnoe | The road to the Death
 * ''Self-defender shows burned cars alone the road to Rassipnoe. Cars with villagers were burned, bombed, shot by Ukrainian Army. Many locals, women and children died on that road.

A self-defense civilian car drives along a road somewhere near Rassypnoe / Rozsypne. Several kilometers are littered with destroyed civilian cars. Most seem to be shot on purpose. One car on the side of the road has been crushed by tank tracks. I did not see any sign of destroyed military hardware.

The first thing to do might be to geolocate the road. Some more information on the access roads to the crash site might be found in this article. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * MH17 search the only hope of peace for Rassypnoe – PAUL TOOHEY. THE AUSTRALIAN AUGUST 05, 2014


 * At 6:34 some kind of tank type vehicle, top blown off. This is what their investigators need, I guess, in order to get to the crash site and finally find Putin's business card. This is something very heavy - hard to say how occupied all these cars were when hit but they usually are when they're on the road - this could be dozens and dozens killed, just from what's seen. Seems like lots of blood in the dirt around 2:24, between the burnt out truck and pools of molten metal - too many WTFs, locating ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:06, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note the war memorial on the small knoll by the roadside. If you fund the route mark it on Google maps and upload the screenshot. On the two tanks: First one, a T-72; "that is out work." Second one, a T-64: "That tank, it is ours." -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:13, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Starting visual - the part from 3:00 or so, coming down a hill, it's noos, sun slightly behind and left as they reach the two cars with other guys, no somewhat northwest, then turning right ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Another version of it is titled This 9 days blokad Dmytryevky tracts road vozle village Rassыpnoe  (google translation) Vozle is 8 miles or so west of Rozspyne KatKan (talk) 17:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

возле (Cyrillic, Russian) = near (English ) --Chingachgook (talk) 15:35, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The destruction might be the result of the 25th Airmobile Brigade dashing out of the pocket in Shakhtersk in early August and shooting at anything that came to its path. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

At 6.05 in the video there is a black car with people. To the left is a rocket or missile being fired.To the right is a few trees. Behind them looks like tall mine buildings??? KatKan (talk) 18:24, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

"portion of Rossypnoye (west of Grabovo), which is part of the crash site where the cockpit fell"   No MH17 link claim made on video,   --Chingachgook (talk) 19:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I've had no luck even with Vozle - There's also talk today of a Russian armored column that crossed over (where?) and was all blown up (shown anywhere?) This seems too far into Ukraine, too random, not very military, not a column, so ... if no one's telling a news story connected to it, I'm guessing it's the older destruction that Petri mentioned. However, the other guys standing around the wreckage does suggest it's all new and interesting, like it is to the video host. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It does bug me I couldn't even find this Vozle - KatKan, where did you find it? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I found it by making a big mistake. Do any of you know Ukrainian? (my knowledge of Slav languages is the 15 or so words that are used also in Hungarian). Does "vozle" mean something? I took the youtube title This 9 days blokad Dmytryevky tracts road vozle village Rassыpnoe'' and assumed "road voxle to Rasmpoe" then put "vozle Donetsk oblast" into Google earth and it came up with 2 locations close by. On further study now, turns out one is "parkovka vozle ATB" which turns out to mean "parking of ATB" with ATB being a big chain of grocery stores. ooops. Both these vozle locations now seem to be in a place called Maklivka, west of Rozspyne. Sorry for the big mixup.
 * "Know Ukrainian?" Why do you ask? People in the Ukraine speak Russian, even more so in Donbass, and certainly on resistance YouTube channels. Proper Ukrainian is only spoken in the far west of Ukraine and in official contexts. MPs and ministers use Russian on the phone, even most of the people on the new Euromaidan government. The only time I have EVER heard proper Ukrainian spoken was when Dmitry Yaroh spoke to his troops. (At first I thought he had some speech impediment.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I spent an hour going over google images for war memorials in Ukraine and can't find any looking anything like the one in the video. Near the end of the video there is a single high voltage main power line tower at left. I can' find power line locations on any maps. KatKan (talk) 15:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Which monument, or which time stamps? Many towers will be seen, but a big distant one seen looking SSW (should) be Saur Moghila - it has a tendency to visible from each wrecked car, but esp. at 0:14, 2:05. The other memorial at 7:35 is plan in matching with a site photo on the Wikimapia link. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Could it just be Snizneh mangled? Even from the right Rozsypne, which is about 8 miles due east of Snizneh, there's nothing 8 miles due west of there called Vozle. Snizneh's the closest sound, it is right there, and it's a big city for reference, so that's my guess. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

"The cockpit apparently was cut in half with diesel-powered saws." [ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/ukraine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/ Version 5:52 a.m. EDT July 23]--Chingachgook (talk) 03:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Lol - let's say we have to tie in an MH17 CT ... the cockpit was cut in three, one part taken to each of the three Roszypnes we've found now ... Hm, thought it would be funny, but it's just weird. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * very old story about the cockpit. That article is illustrated with an image of the tail. Then Bociurkiw (OSCE) is quoted referring to that part. Around same time there was video footage of cutting equipment being used -- on the main burned area. Also at the same place, cranes lifting pieces of fuselage (clearly, to me, to get at bodies underneath). That article is wrong as the cockpit was NOT in the same village the first bodies were found it. Just propaganda to make separatists look bad to underscore the "fact" that they were responsible for the shooting. From what I can see, they were the ones who acted most responsibly and decently in the aftermath. KatKan (talk) 15:34, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Video does not have exact timing details, basically those guys are lost in words how to describe what they have witnessed. They describe this is as pointless ("dumb") violence. Some of the bodies were left by the road. There were bodies in cars. Just one car they point to, a Huyndau, was found empty, and they were wondering what happened there. I don't want to get into every gory detail but I asked to translate comments which appear relevant to establish time and place (the rest is basically them pointing to what they witness; )
 * It's at noon, solar, on the 16th or maybe the 15th (posting time analysis, etc. not clear). That's how it's presented, brand new. So presumably so. That's a start. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * 1.16 They established a corridor near village of Rassypnoe between Dmitrovka and Snezhnoe
 * 1.36 for several days, they were not allowing to collect bodies . So we will only show car damage [ they eventually moved bodies to a morgue before the recording][there is strong smell,but it was worth before ][They expect to find more bodies after a while, by the smell]
 * 2.16 "it is still hot"
 * 2.25 temperature was very high
 * 2.46 here they established a block post ...near village Rassypnoe
 * 3.00 so they established their block post here
 * 3.06 here main horrors start
 * 5.11 maybe they took them hostage, for exchange?
 * 5.14 answer not audible but is more likely "they did NOT" offered an exchange rather than 'they DID offer an exchange"
 * 5.28 they did it FOR SEVERAL DAYS, ALMOST A WEEK
 * 5.32 yesterday, we punished them
 * 5.49 village folks were afraid to get out of their houses
 * 6.33 Ukrainian army tank ...
 * 7.02 that car, a 'Gazel', had a red cross [they argue is it an "emergency" or "reanimation/intensive care" type car but agree it has the red cross on the hood ]
 * 7.38 monument, to [ an unknown] soldier
 * 8.33 Ukrainian army tank, it shot up those cars
 * 8.34 that tank further back is Ukrainian, and the one closer, is ours
 * 8.42 ...and a distance, a BMP can be seen
 * 8.52 ...our tank broke down, we will be fixing it
 * 8.59 up to here, it was controlled by Ukrainians. They established that corridor. But than we gave them some heat

--Chingachgook (talk) 01:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

There are several places called Rozsypne by Google, one is near Hrabovo, but this one appear to be the one south-east of Snezhny,"between villages of Snizhne and Dmitrovka" can be heard on the audio. Well those folks are not exactly from the National Geographic society, it so appears...  This would be my guess... --Chingachgook (talk) 01:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * There are several villages / sub-villages in the area with a prefix name Rozsypne and different suffix names e.g. Rozsypne Rassypnoye and Rozsypne Rassypnaya which sound like either masculine / feminine variants or local suffixes that happen to be masculine and feminine but have other meanings. Similar usage in British English might be Great Cockup & Little Cockup (real places) or South London and North London --Charles Wood (talk) 06:14, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I found Dmitrovka, SE of Snizneh on Wikimapia, so Saur Moghila should be nearby, and the alleged firing location. Looks like you found the same area. Okay. A corridor was made here, huh? Interesting... this is way off from where I was looking, so will start again soon. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW, great work following up on the content. Oddly, there's another Rozsypne right there, in the northern part of that area. That makes three of them, sort of, in this small area. As for my directions above, don't get too hung up on northwest or whatever. I hate placing noon videos - the sun is coming from ... up. It does seem behind and left, slightly, and that could mean south is that way, or a bit SW or SE of it depending which side of noon it is. If this monument (still not clear if that's it) is visible, should be to the southwest if it's Saur Moghila. Savur-Mohvla per Wikipedia was badly damaged by fighting, and overtaken by Kiev forces, at least long enough to take a photo inside the memorial, on August 9. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a rather curious place to be, but the exact timing and relationship to MH17 (if any ) is unclear to me. A horror just by itself. Certainly shows that fighting shall urgently stop --Chingachgook (talk) 01:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * As for the significance, it's in the area, hasn't yet proven it needs its own page or anything, and this being the page for mapping the area, and the area having MH17 significance besides whatever, eh ... fits here pretty good for now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably deserves a page. I suggest Petri seed these additions around, get a little more info, decide what to call the page, and make it. Location section, host's story section to start with... --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Overall impression that they try to accurately describe what they have witnessed, to the best of their abilities. This is not easy for them and they are not quite sure what to show and what to say, but they try their best. What they say appears to be a reliable witness testimony. (There is NO impression that they shot and crashed those cars themselves: although they are not well-spoken, there are lots of small details given, which would be fairly impossible to stage) --Chingachgook (talk) 03:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Location?
I think this on Google Maps might be the stretch of road seen from 3:00-6:00+ in the video - ll=47.983258,38.877439. Northwest then north, out of the hills, right in front of this Rozsypne. Saur Moghila might be visible - in the side mirror, at 5:57, back to the SSW like it would be. At that moment approaching last power pole before the row of trees to the left, one odd tree in the field between them. Several other features of this road line up, so it's well worth putting out the check. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:46, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There's another monument to "Soviet War" due north - at 7:35 statues seen on the right. I'm calling the spot then, with this graphic. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:46, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: the "National Geographic" effect for the yellow rectangle is totally accidental but funny given its mention above. :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * New graphic beneath - all vehicles/wrecks, app. where and when seen. Only the final tank is unclear. Video ends with a final cut almost at Lugansk border, resumes somewhere I didn't place, but with an eletrical tower that should have done it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I dug all over the non-video internet, for a bit, looking for stories in Ukrainian or Russian this might be, but no luck. From a comment beneath the main linked video, another translation and a link:
 * Look what the ukrainian army did. They build a "block-post" and shot everyone passing here. Looks like they just shot, they did not intorrogate them. They didnt check if civilian or not. Lucky i didnt eat anything today, the smell is so bad.
 * We punished them for what they did. But this is war and this is hard to take. I will not film any dead bodys for ethical reasons. We collected all of them and brought them to the morgue. They are all burned down, i dont know how they want to identify them.
 * You cant call it murder, its just genocide. They kill elderly people who are afraid of going out.
 * (6:30) Here you see the results of our work. The "ukropian" tank which was shooting the cars
 * Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=432_1408213172&comments=1#2WUdtY7PUu8x5yVo.99﻿

There we find the video (noted NOT graphic) and the translation, from an early comment. Then "The following GRAPHIC pictures (same as in the post this one updates) show the Ukraine soldiers (Right Sector/National Guard?) that were blocking the road and killing all the civilians and destroying the cars." Then follows several photos of dead militants, most visibly in camouflage, badly blown up, and badly decomposed and/or burnt. Dead perhaps two weeks, actually, or even longer. Dead several days at least, perhaps over a week (summer heat). The story says the killed civilians here were in a similar state - sounds like a total mess they neutralized from a distance, but couldn't clean up in person because of artillery fire from Saur Moghila, for example (implicity now re-taken and they could finally clean up and document) Closes with "'The route is now somewhat safe." -- Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC) and early revisions Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A few days ago there was this militia commander claiming:
 * What’s more: some “hot spot tourists’ have been allowed to shoot from a tank or use other type of artillery. So people come, pay money and they can shoot – it’s like a safari. What they shoot at – only God knows. So somebody makes money on these tourists shooting, destroying towns, killing peaceful people.
 * Could be the aftermath of something like that. Maybe Kolomoiski himself having some fun in return for his money. Sickness. --CE (talk) 12:09, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Can you imagine the profit potential of these "filtration camps?" That's the invisible hand of the marketplace for you. Its got control of the highway, and all side-avenues appear blockaded and bleak. Putin? Has blown it so far. His invasion and support have let this move almost too fast for "us" to "realize what was happening." :( --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, I'll suggest someone consider this kind of thing from the PoV of this second map, tourist locales, timeline and other clues ... what can we reasonably speculate here? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Lugansk August 18th
"Ukraine: rebels shelled refugees with Grad, many killed" --Chingachgook (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC) CNN'ed--Chingachgook (talk) 17:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This Khryaschuvate and Novosvitlivka story is a different incident. It seems to have freshly happened on Aug 17, which is after the other video was posted, showing damage that was not recent (eg bodies had been removed etc).
 * It is a major difficulty that everyone in the area is using identical weaponry, so there is no forensic way to be sure who caused which damage. It can be determined only by eyewitness accounts (which as we know may be disinformation) or by video evidence where the originals are published, to ensure no falsification happened. We'll never know the whole truth. KatKan (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This seems to have been refugees in MILITARY VEHICLES equipped with white flags. Wonder if that's visible from Grad-aiming distance? Total dead ten?? hinted at here in Telegraph
 * From Pravda as mentioned in Telegraph
 * "'Він також зауважив, що колона містила всі розпізнавальні знаки, необхідні для біженців із мирного населення. На транспорті були білі прапори та позначки, що пересувається мирне населення. Транспорт для біженців збирали, як могли. Зокрема, вантажівки надали військові.'" which google says is "'He also noted that the column contains all markings needed for refugees from the civilian population. In transport were white flags and tags that moves civilians. Transport for refugees gathered as they could. In particular, given the military trucks.'"
 * "When asked about the number of victims, Lysenko said: "It's ten."

KatKan (talk) 20:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

We are having here an allegation of civilians killed by combatants from the same pro-Russian camp. Suggesting killing of those civilians was intentional would be simply insane. Whether or not this allegation is true, unfortunately,  tragic mistakes do happen in wars, and this should be an argument to stop the military phase, not to an excuse to prolong it. Details of what happened are unclear, and may be clarified when hostilities stopped. Unfortunately civilians die every day in shelling of cities, and this does not attract too much media coverage. UN: around 60 people on average are killed per day. Grad listed range is 15 km, would you see a flag from 15 km? I doubt. It is doing "carpet-bombing", multiple launch of unguided missiles, similar to Katiusha in WW2. They would cover a wide area and there would be no clue where exactly those would missiles would land --Chingachgook (talk) 03:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

It's time to make peace and figure that out. --Chingachgook (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It would need to be a peace in which the Donbass areas are rebuilt, not left to rot for 'having supported the terrorists", and in which no extreme punitive measures are taken against anyone proven to have fought on the non-Government side (not to mention those merely accused of it). Current rhetoric would not be giving the separatists much hope for such a peace. A peace without figuring it out would be better, unless they can manage something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation. Without reconciliation, the seeds of future problems will keep germinating. Residents who did not fight, but saw Government actions destroying their homes and lives, would also need some way to regain trust in the Government.KatKan (talk) 21:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I mean cease-fire basically (ultimate peace is unclear but continued killing has no sense). Something appears on-going, we will see, can't sort this for them --Chingachgook (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * for example, exactly what is the point in pushing news that one Russians killed another Russians, no matter of what particular details of that might actually be ? (Rebels denied doing it).--Chingachgook (talk) 00:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking from outside it may be all Russians. To them "Russians" are the ones who live in Russia. The separatists are "terrorists" who, although aided by Russia, are Ukrainian. Indeed they are, by citizenship and many generations of living there, and they did not like being under Soviet rule nor would like it again. The ones who remember those days are mostly gone. They want independence from the western part which discriminates against them for being Russian speaking. There are Polish and Hungarian speaking minorities, too, many generations, left over from when those countries had control. The whole poor country was under other peoples' heels for a long time.
 * Anyway the "junta" is not thinking straight. All they want is chances to make the "terrorists" look bad, and killing fleeing civilians does the trick. If it's their own civilians that makes them look so much worse. It very well COULD be a response to the Rozspyne video we had 2 days ago. Mostly this propaganda is not for us, it is for internal consumption by their own people in the west... who just kicked out one President and might kick out another, USA wishes notwithstanding, if they find out what's really going on. KatKan (talk) 04:44, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hm, a strangely similar scene described, but placed way north, emerging at the same time, but with no pictures. TSN video for the story - no images there. Chances are good it's the same incident they're trying to re-brand. Remaining chances are dominated by it being a second incident of the same sort. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Total debunk attempt here: Aidar Battalion used human shields or something... Adults and children were separated... Evidently there was a photo somewhere, but I did no see it. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Обстрел из градов колонны беженцев (минирасследование) (Use Yandex translate)
 * Sounded like human shields to me, when it first said they were in military vehicles with white flags. yeah sure. This is a "pictures or it didn't happen" war. where are the pictures of the Russian convoy destroyed on the border 2 days ago? there were Western journalists with the aid convoy, they saw military vehicles going past, surely one would have gone back to snap the destruction?
 * One comment in the links below says there was one photo -- a few months old file photo of a Grad being fired.
 * This site has pictures, mostly gory ones of dead people, with no context. But there are short descriptions of fighting, village by village, which can be read without viewing the videos. Original and Yandex translation