Talk:Maan Massacre, 2014

There are news coming in that Maan was "seized" again by Islamists as part of an offensive trying to cut supply roads today. SOHR says 25 NDF fighters were killed, the government talks of mainly women and children and a "massacre". SANA says 10 women were "massacred and their bodies mutilated". Pro-Assad TV journalist Alaa Ebrahim has published a list of "20 out of 60" names of people killed "by Al-Nusra" on facebook and linked a video with Islamic Front logo on twitter (which doesn't show much of use). --CE (talk) 02:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Death Toll
As of February 11, there's still no clear answer. First it was about 20 dead, being 20 NDF, then 20 NDF plus 20 civilians, then apparently 40 civilians plus the defenders. Most reports now have the 40 range singled out one way or another, but enough indicators point higher that it seems more likely - around 60 people of Syria killed in total. 62 is the best single guess at the moment. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * CNI (China) Feb 10 Syrian Rebel Attack Kills 42 Civilians: Army. But the article says "The general command of the Syrian army said Monday that the rebels' attack a day earlier against a town in the central province of Hama killed as many as 42 people," including military/NDF. While SANA's quote of the Army was clearer: 42 women, children and elderly people murdered in massacre by Jabhet al-Nusra in Maan, Hama
 * The General Command of the Army and Armed Forces said that 42 women, children and elderly people were murdered in a horrific massacre committed by Jabhet al Nusra terrorists in the village of Maan in Hama’s northern countryside on Sunday.


 * Syria 360: SANA reports, Feb. 11
 * Hama, (SANA) – With official and popular participation, victims of the Maan massacre which was committed by terrorists last Sunday were laid to rest. (number laid not mentioned)
 * Damascus, (SANA) The Cabinet denounced the massacre committed by terrorists against the town of Maan in Hama province which claimed the lives of 42 victims, mostly women and children. (suggests 42 total)


 * Los Angeles Times, Feb 10: Syria and rebels agree to extend rescue effort in city of Homs
 * The government delegation denounced the “massacre” by Al Qaeda-linked rebels of 42 civilians in the town of Maan in Hama province. The pro-opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said 25 people, most of them members of a militia loyal to the government, were killed when Islamic fighters overran the town in an attack with sectarian overtones. (SOHR position since updated)


 * London Southeast
 * "The number of those killed yesterday by the terrorist groups is over 50," al-Meqdad told reporters. The opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that 21 civilians had been killed in Ma'an - whose residents belong to President Bashar al-Assad's Alawite sect, seen as heretics by many Sunni Islamists - along with 20 pro-government militiamen.
 * Confronted with 41-42, it sounds like, he specified the total was well above that.


 * The list examined below claims to name 20 (actually 21) of about 60 total victims.

Besides those confirmed as already dead, Syria News.cc reported, "the missings list extends to 80 civilian." Only so many people can just get lost and turn up later. This, if true, means rebels took quite a few captives. The actual death toll could therefore wind up much higher.

Reported Victims
An initial List of 20 names out of 60 alleged victims was posted by Alaa Ebrahim on Facebook, Feb 9, and a text version was also posted by Jablah News Network. It's 21 victims actually (last entry split here). Google Translated:
 * And now is our response to the first list of the names of some of the martyrs of the massacre in Hama glitter (Maan) 02.09.2014 and the remaining names will be published as soon as received


 * 1) Martyr Hikmat Kaddour
 * 2) F martyr Fatima Kaddour
 * 3) F Martyr (Alham?) Kaddour
 * 4) Martyr Ghassan Kaddour
 * 5) Martyr Karam Kaddour
 * 6) F Martyr (Frish?) Kaddour
 * 7) Martyr Ali Kaddour
 * 8) Martyr Suad Kaddour
 * 9) F Martyr Riifah Kaddour
 * 10) Martyr Yassin Kaddour
 * 11) F Martyr (Mhasn?) Kaddour
 * 12) Martyr Ali Saleh
 * 13) Martyr Ibrahim Nasser
 * 14) Martyr Fatoom Maihoub
 * 15) F Martyr and communication Wessal Nasser
 * 16) Shaheed Mohamed Ibrahim
 * 17) F Martyred Zarifa (Al-Shar?)
 * 18) F Martyr (Jwhr?) (family unclear?)
 * 19) Martyr Ayham Ibrahim
 * 20) Martyr Abotahir Tahir ,,,
 * 21) F ... and his wife, Um Haider


 * Mercy and glory and immortality to the martyrs

Clearly a Kaddour family was singled out, in this alleged incident. I forgot, not just names, but the form of "Shahid" shows gender. Those with the suffix in Arabic, marked F above. Nine out of 21, with at least 5 Kaddour women. There are also quite possible female Shabiha, FWIW. Some sign up last minute, perhaps. But not this many. This will include old women, girls, boys, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Tweet: "Abu Mousa refused to flee the house he lived in, that's where "rebels" found & killed him & his wife. #Maan #Syria pic.twitter.com/IBHBUHLTAU" --CE (talk) 21:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Two bits of information from As'ad "Angry Arab" AbuKhalil:


 * He says Syrian novelist Hasan Ibrahim An-Nasir lost his father, mother, and two sisters. On the list are Ibrahim Nasser and (F) Wessal Nasser which could be the parents. The two Ibrahims seem to be male, maybe the sisters married into the Kaddour family?
 * This is interesting. It's specific and it'll pan out or not. I'm used to seeing maiden names even on those who marry in, but that's how the VDC does it, so maybe the sister married in, or is on the other list of civilians. We may or may not see. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * New piece at syrianews.cc with information about both Maan massacres. I leave checking the details of the first to you, am not on speed on that. About the current one, he writes that Maan has only one road to connect it to the outer world, which seems obviously false from the map, where two roads cross and villages are on each end. According to the article, a number of the victims died on this road while leaving to shop. Some rather plausible sounding details in addition, from a resident named Mohamad. The article sports the picture of the funeral (which seems to feature a couple of Bedouin-looking people indeed) and the one of the older couple posted in the tweet I linked to above. According to the description here, "Abu Mousa"'s full name is Ibrahim Mousa Al-Naser and his wife was named Fatoum Mayhoub (13. and 14. on the list). The novelist's parents. --CE (talk) 01:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This is the type of report I was waiting for. Thanks. Will add to sources and in time work in, to both pages. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:28, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * A source tells him that "according to a western NGO worker":
 * I have been following events in Maan closely for the last two years as it has been attacked, since its on a "strategic" road, as people like to say, on the way down to Hama. Almost all its residents have already fled due to successive attacks. Its residents could not be accused of being shabiha and actually had good relations with local Beduin and Sunni neighbors. As of yesterday there were about 40 dead in the attack, or as the opposition calls it, a "liberation." 18 of the dead were women and children. 15 were very old people. 8 of the dead were handicapped. Of course the men were in a local defense group, they have been under attack since 2012. There were also about 17 soldiers, and the survivors fled to the nearest government held town."

Which fits the already emerged picture quite well. --CE (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Bedouins, huh? That was just mentioned below. Might well be a coincidence. Maybe the town was empty aside from defenders ... defending an empty town. Or those were on the farms attacked. It's entirely possible. As far "accused of being Shabiha," there are no standards to meet, really. If any had guns, that's more than fair by non-standards. "Of course the men were in a local defense group" = "Shabiha" as they say it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

VDC Maan Martyrs
Hm. Looking at the Center for Documentation of Violations database, there's this pattern to consider, which you can see with the Talk:Homs Massacres where the fact that some of the dead are called "Shabiha" (NDF/Local Committees/Lijan Shabiyya), their civilian family members and them and anyone rebels killed in this or that raid on a Christian or Alawite village, gets listed under "regime casualties," rank: civilian, if anywhere, rather than as "Martyrs." maybe they don't consider that a violation? I've wondered that before. Conversely, in that case and others (like the Latakia Massacres or see last link), rebel fighters do get reported to whatever degree, and listed as martyrs, including foreign Salafist ones killed in the course of committing a massacre.

That's alleged here. First reports said only Shabiha died, now maybe it was their families too. Looking at the current updates (Feb. 9-10, all martyrs from Hama province) this pattern seems to hold. No sign of any scale of massacre in Maan. And the "regime casualties" list stopped being added to on January 1. A scattered few were added in late December, one guy listed twice, then two "rank: civilian" regime forces from Idlib, dead on the 1st, and none added since. over a month on. Check it. Until that changes, there's no place to list the Alawite and Christian children, women, and elderly killed alongside related men considered "Shabiha" in alleged massacres like this. Below, their paltry martyr's list, closest things to documenting this. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

In nearby Soran (Souran on Wikimapia) several people, civilian and rebel, are listed as dying from shooting ad "detention - execution." on the 9th. Names of many dead: Qtait, Al-Omar. They do show a bigger yet massacre on the 8th, of people from Soran. Names: Ismael, Al-Sbaih, Qtait, Al-Nabhan. Many more dead in Jalama, including children and women, unidentified and half-identified field executed. There's the note: "Several civilians martyred in a massacre during the storming of the town by regime's forces." Location: on "old" Wikimpaia - near Kafr Zita, too far west to be (directly) related. Names: al-Saied, Al-Moshen. Kfar Zita and Soran saw lots of murky killing too in recent days as well. Someone's set Hama on fire as Homs chills somewhat and evacuates.

For people from Maan, this alone: Abdul Nour Bakour al-Husain, Non-Civilian. Adult - Male. From Hama, area: Maan. Died 2014-02-09 by shooting. Rank: FSA. Notes: Martyred during the clashes with the regime`s army forces in Hama suburbs. They add he was "buried in Khween village." This translates قرية which Wikimapia, when asked, suggests is in the village labeled Fan al-Wastani and/or the other Fan al-towns just north and south of it. All about 13 km SE of Ma'an as the crow flies. There is/was a small Sunni minority in Maan he might be from. Or maybe he just died there and it's mislabeled.

I'm not trying to catch them all, but here's a rebel fighter with Martyrdom location: Hama: Maan - Yosef Ahmad Bahjat Hassani Child-Male (looks just about 18, hit in the head with a good shot). Another killed there is Anas Mohammad Hasan Hassani, adult male. Must be big brother who talked Yosef into this? No image. Both are Rank: FSA, from Soran (worth checking other Soran ftalities then), with the note: "Martyred during the clashes with the regime`s army forces."

Rebel Denials
James Miller's Enduring America has been weighing back in to try and clear every Islamist crime that occurs in Syria or is, as they put it, alleged by the Assad regime. The logo has been changed from THE Pentagon to A Crescent (rainbow colors, no star, meaning unclear). Anyway, after the Jihadist takeover there...


 * Feb. 12 Syria Video: Was There A "Massacre" By Insurgents in Maan in Hama Province? By Scott Lucas.
 * ...Within 24 hours (of the rebel victory), State media was claiming a “massacre” of civilians. The Assad delegation at the Geneva II talks used the claim as their opening salvo against the opposition on Monday. Mainstream press have been spreading the news of at least 20 civilians among 40 dead. However, those reports are almost exclusively based on the claims of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights — which, as usual for its assertions, provides no sources.
 * Hint for the slow: if they don't specify the source, it's their activist network, as usual. Perhaps Mr. Lucas thinks the regime is their source? Less than 24 hours before massacre reports is made to seem suspicious, but that's about how long it takes for rebels to kill people after getting access, for that to become heard about, verified, and reported.

"Beyond the SOHR’s “report”, the only evidence that has surfaced so far," Lucas writes, "is from Tahrir Souri, journalists who have posted a photograph of an elderly couple allegedly killed by the insurgents." This is supposed to seem easily outweighed by the evidence he adds, a 15-minute rebel-provided video posted Monday (link) and a translation he got from Reddit. This helps us learn there was no massacre. The town was "liberated," and only combattants were killed. In one excerpt (around 1:20), an informed fighter explains:
 * We first circled the village from three axes, we left a single axis open as a corridor for women and children to escape. When the firefights started, the women and children began to leave. When we entered the village we found Shabiha (pro-Assad militia), and women combatants armed with sniper rifles and automatic rifles, grenades too. One of the women took out two of our men, shortly afterwards she was shot.

It goes on, worth citing here actually. Anyway, there were civilians, children, women fighting to the death, people they allowed to escape, all very good. But their ostensible leaders in Turkey suggest that's all made up. In fact, they said in another bit helpfully provided by Enduring America, as the two things they have on the subject so far: "The opposition Syrian National Coalition has issued a statement refuting the allegation that insurgents “massacred” civilians as they captured Maan in Hama Province last weekend."
 * Monzer Akbik, the Chief of Staff to Ahmed Jarba, President of the (Coalition) said: “It is important that events is Maan are clarified. There was a battle between the Free Syrian Army and the Assad forces. The village was evacuated of civilians more than six months ago. Those who were killed in that battle were killed in action –– no civilians were killed. The regime is trying to create a clouds of lies to cover up their crimes, like the barrel bombings we’ve recently seen.”

Six months they were all gone? Did the fighter mean we surrounded them six months ago and let people escape, and only pounced now? No, the interviewer got that in answer to this question:
 * You already told us that the confrontations lasted 24 hours. Could you tell us more about who you faced? What happened during the firefights? And how they started?

And there you go - one way or another, it must all be regime lies. They aren't sure if the civilians were all gone months ago, or if they let them all flee at the start of this day-long battle. But one of the stories must be true, because otherwise ...--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:54, 13 February 2014 (UTC)


 * According to the videos I have no problem believing that the place was mostly abandoned for months. Some show a battle for a checkpoint outside the village. Maybe this family Kaddour didn't live directly in the village either, but outside on some farm or so. Could explain why SOHR changed their reporting later, maybe the news took some time. Tried to google the name and Maan, nothing of note - a couple of people actually named Kaddour Maan and a professor named Maan in Lille, France who has a Ph.D student named Kaddour. --CE (talk) 14:32, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well that would make the rebel fighter's story untrue and harder to explain. Why make up civilians just to explain away? I'll have to watch the videos closer, but tenancy in wartime, not always able to tell. But armed women in number, snipers ... doesn't sound made up, suggests some kind of town with a number of people. SOHR reported that civilians were evacuated, suggesting they were there. Maybe six months ago they left for some reason, but trickled back? Certainly no sign any large number were caught and killed there. Otherwise, people on remote farms are in fact the standard prey of roaming "Shabiha." Quite possible, depending. Qaddour is a common name, too common I think to say much. A possibly Bedouin Qaddour family who lived in tents were killed in a Homs Massacre south of Homs, April 2013. too far to draw a link. Not Alawite either. :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:59, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * For possible reference: Homs Massacres

To clarify, on February 12, the opposition coalition issued a statement
 * The Syrian Coalition reiterates its full respect for the international law, and confirms in a statement released today that "all the brigades and battalions under the umbrella of the Syrian revolution are committed to charters of human rights and Geneva Conventions.” The Syrian Coalition stresses that “the battalions liberated the village of Ma’an in rural Hama to protect civilians and ensure their safety. All those killed in the battle of Ma’an were fighters and armed militias. We stress that the regime’s claims of massacres against of civilians are completely baseless, as the Assad regime has been reiterating  these lies to tarnish the image of the revolutionaries in front of the Syrians and the world." It is important to note that the liberalization of Ma’an dealt a blow to the Assad regime, as the village was a key stronghold for Assad’s thugs in northern Hama, from where they used to launch atrocious attacks on civilians in neasby towns and villages to suppress the revolution for freedom and dignity. (Source: Syrian Coalition)
 * (you can just sense their confidence in the future here) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Or, perhaps, it's a third explanation why the opposition at large is free of blame here. It's actually apparently the first one chronologically, but it was an unofficial (alleged) comment, and they would say it's trumped by the more informed statements above. But we can't ignore how, according to Breaking News.sy, there was a meeting on Feb. 10 in which coalition spokesman Luai al-Safi, at one point, "described Ma’an massacre that took place in Hama as a personal mistakes and excesses may occur. " That's only an alleged acknowledgment as it stands - there's nothing else I can see to back this up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

World Reaction

 * Feb. 10, Press TV:
 * Syria has urged the United Nations to condemn the killing of over 50 Syrian civilians in an Alawite village by foreign-backed militants in the Arab country.
 * Syria’s Foreign and Expatriates Ministry demanded a stern and urgent UN condemnation in two identical letters addressed to the United Nations secretary general and president of the UN Security Council on Monday.

One of these two complied the following day:
 * United Nations or Iloubnan.info: statement of UNSG Ban Ki Moon, Feb. 11:
 * ''"The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms all violence against civilians and calls for the perpetrators of this massacre, and all other crimes in Syria, to be brought to justice," the statement said, adding that "such horrific incidents should be a reminder to all of the urgency of ending the conflict and launching a political transition towards a new Syria where all people and communities are guaranteed protection, rights and freedoms."

This statement has been heralded as the first global voice to say such a thing. However, there's an ambiguity to it worth noting. If Ban were the omnipotent voice of the West and its allies, this could easily read as a threat: "It's urgent that we press ahead with our regime change plans, and until that happens, massacres like this will continue. Yadda yadda justice." Meanwhile, the government to be transitioned from is already implementing the only concrete plan anyone will ever propose regarding that justice. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Syria's government of course strenuously denounced the acts, as did its people with mass rallies nationwide. In Geneva, Syria's information Minister Omran al-Zoubi "said that the coalition delegation should have condemned, out of patriotic and moral duty, the massacre in Maan, which claimed the life of Syrian citizens including women, children, elderly and disabled people," as one report puts it.
 * “It’s shameful and disgraceful that the coalition delegation would come to Geneva while remaining captive of terms and positions characterized by political immaturity,” the Minister said, stressing that every incident or massacre that took place in Syria since the events began are documented, and that the coalition delegation and those who share their opinions know full well who committed them.

Instead, the opposition issued a statement denying categorically that there even could have been a massacre.

Outside Syria, and aside from Ban's ambiguous statement, there has been little by way of condemnation of what all credible sources consider a massacre of some scale. Iran's government, unsurprisingly, was one exception. The Iran Project posted on Feb. 13:
 * Tehran has strongly condemned the massacre of Syrian civilians in the village of Maan in Hama Province by terrorist groups.
 * Iran’s Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Marzieh Afkham on Wednesday expressed condolences to the families of the victims, decrying the terrorist act.

Apparently no other nation is convinced enough yet that anything worth denouncing happened. In other news, of course, no one's blaming regime forces for this one and using it as another reason the government should be dismantled. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

To Be Blamed on Assad/Iran?
Consider from the AP's report:
 * The raid on Maan is likely to bolster efforts by the government delegation to convey their narrative at the Geneva peace talks that the three-year uprising to overthrow Assad is dominated by al-Qaida extremists. The extremists see Alawites as apostates who should be killed.

That will raise red flag with anyone familiar with the theory that Iran, actually, is largely behind channeling Al-Nusra into Syria, that Syria helps fund ISIS with oil deals, etc. (see here). All that, more or less, allegedly seems to be "to bolster efforts by the government (everything) to convey their narrative" that they're fighting Terrorists. Brilliant plan. Simply make it true, then claim it as true. But we're not so fooled by simple truth! Anyway, the timing and audacity of this clear terrorist massacre will be seen by some, maybe powerful folks, as pointing to certain state sponsors of terrorism, and they ain't "friends of Syria."

And since this is all an exercise in reverse psychology, the obvious implications is - the "friends"-supported terrorists timed their own audacious massacre to frame their real enemies as trying to frame them. And no, I do not suspect the regime of making it look like the rebels are making it look like the regime's making it look like rebels did it. That's clearly too many turns of the wheel. The turn before, might be just perfect. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * And round and round we go. :oD The problem the "friends" would have if their audience wasn't brain-dead anyway is that the operation is clearly dominated by Ahrar Al-Sham, whose flag gets raised on the broadcasting tower in the videos, and one of the leader-looking guys wear Suqour Al-Sham shirts. Their nice "FSA" friends under new label. I wonder by the way how Assad managed to get Uncle Zawahiri to do his bidding. Maybe he was hiding in Syria all the time anyway and that's why nobody can find him? Stay tuned, tomorrow in the NYT. --CE (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. They could claim it's a false flag using, well, false flags! The VDC lists FSA guys killed there (but not the massacre victims of course) ... well, the logic is there for the desperate to claim anyway, and even a debunk ready, just in case. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)