Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Map

Location
Do we have this set? I don't. Reports say nearest towns are Snizhne and Torez, east of Donetsk. I looked between them, in the better-matching north part centered here on Google Maps. Was looking for the apparent church (?) but no clear luck. The area mifgt also be south of the highway. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

If not, photos that might help:
 * Flight Deck photo with row of trees (road, presumably) and (church?)
 * Observers drive by recognizable buildings at "the main crash site"
 * Left wing tip photo shows the same area in the background. other buildings to the right.

That last area looks like maybe a small mining operation. Might be this spot, suggesting the road we mainly see is the one running southeast from there, little trees on left only facing southeast), wreckage mainly on the right. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, the area is partly set. Digital globe crash site images. There was also a Hrabove mentiioned, but the one over by Poland came up ... now I see it's just at the edge of the Hrabove north of the spots I was checking above - homes just to the east may have been damaged. Sometimes my links come out goofed up, but hopefully this comes through - there used to be a cluster of buildings at the end of that little road, empty now. Coords 48.137 38.64 --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Lots of clues - unverified - at Wall Street Journal. e.g.


 * "The plane's cockpit and dozens of bodies plummeted into Rozsypne, about 2 miles from Petropavlivka. One body fell through a woman's roof. A pilot strapped to a seat wound up next to a flight attendant in a nearby field.


 * Charred remains of an engine, landing gear and wings fell in a fireball next to Hrabove, with a tumbling storm cloud of at least 70 bodies, some of them largely intact."
 * --Charles Wood (talk) 06:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The latter part sounds right. Rozsypne - in two sections BTW - is three creeks west of Hrabove. Exact area and even which part of the town not set by satellite images, but maybe can be matched by site photos. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * According to this detailed NYT graphic nothing fell on either part of Rozsypne directly. One thing fell in the middle of Hrabove, most just south of there, and a couple doys even further west, just shy of Petropavlivka. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Wall Street Journal worked their clues into a list of parts with locations now. --CE (talk) 09:49, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That is an excellent resource - photos next to labeled maps of the three areas, dots for each fragment, labeled. We can see where heavier and lighter parts landed, forward vs. main, etc. For a handy shortcut, the three maps are here combined into one image --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Buk locations and flight paths
I am copying over part of a comment by Andrew over at Saker's blog. What we should have is a cooperative page on Google maps with all these points marked, or alternatively a Google Earth file.


 * ''The Telegraph has / had a post with a visual map reference and an image from the purported launch site toward Saur Moglia.


 * Alleged Rebel BUK at:
 * 47^58'26" North
 * 38^45'37" East
 * Exactly 2km due east of Pervomaiskyi village behind a row of trees.


 * The Ukrainian Buk's at:
 * 47^59'00"N
 * 38^27'03"E
 * and
 * 47^59'00"N
 * 38^27'00"E
 * 750M due south of Zaroschenske Village


 * I think your most conservative assumption would be to put the reported final flight bearing of 117^30' from TAMAK Waypoint
 * 47^51'23"N
 * 39^13'00"E
 * as the flight path at impact and draw your line back from there. On Google Earth this is a direct line from the dot representing Yenakijeve and TAMAK.


 * An intersection point is northwest of Kirovske village. I agree with the deflection of the plane by the missile, but would suggest the diversion was a curved path, not a direct intersection. :Possibly the entire fall was on a curve due to the aerodynamics of the plane breaking apart. This would account for the ejection of the cockpit and tail to the south of the fall path.


 * I also noticed this interesting conclusion tonight:
 * http://ukrainepost.blogspot.com/2014/07/mh17-tamak-waypoint_17.html


 * If they had fully carried through the math, thought about the detection range and flight time, they would have seen Snizhne to be impossible as they recognize the 1 minute missile flight time.
 * Too many people are confused and think the plane just falls down instead of taking a ballistic trajectory.
 * Why did MH17 leave L-69 for L-980 and then why did it attempt to return?
 * According to the Flight Plan I have seen, it was supposed to be flying Air Path L980. So the real question is what it was doing in L69 to begin with, as it implies it was diverted between Kiev and Dnipropetrovsk or the pilot got lost at GANRA waypoint and accidentally headed for Donetsk. At Donetsk it looks like it used Air Path W533 (?) to recover to L980 over Gorlivka.

More on the TAMAK waypoint:
 * Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 downed near Ukraine border
 * ''TAMAK is the waypoint where the air routes L980 and L69 converge over the boundary between Dnipropetrovsk airspace in Ukraine and Rostov-on-Don airspace in Russia.

TAMAK is located at 47°51'24.0"N 39°13'06.0"E (47.856667, 39.218333). The last normal point on MH17 flight path was 51 km in direction 300 degrees. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


 * This analysis does not take into account the Russian radar track that has the aircraft deviate significantly to Port / North from the planned track. Innocent explanations for this (if correct) include deviation to avoid thundery weather that is known to have been in the area - from public lightning servers.


 * --Charles Wood (talk) 09:30, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That also shows a different final heading 111 instead of 118. For this final stretch, the deviation can be ignored, and the trajectory is only so important (as just one of the factors in determining spread). --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "Too many people are confused and think the plane just falls down instead of taking a ballistic trajectory." Yes, but ... the factors in that will be: remaining flight trajectory (x mass, - drag, per piece), prevailing wind, and gravity. Averaged together, parts may wind up straight down, further along the path, or some other direction - even back on the path. "If they had fully carried through the math, thought about the detection range and flight time, they would have seen Snizhne to be impossible" It's this new report's calculated impact point that supposedly rules that out. But it is based on 20-30 km due east movement before the last debris, which is not very well explained (math not followed through?). See my new graphic and explanations at the report critique spot in a few minutes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:30, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Historical evidence of similar inflight disruptions - TWA-800 and Pan-Am 103 - show the debris trail starts almost immediately at the point of explosion with heavier debris falling straight down. 'Ballistic' fall is a modern fiction. Either parts of the aircraft continue flying and in the case of TWA-800 actually gain altitude for a period, or they fall essentially based on density and drag. In no way do they fall based on classical ballistics.


 * TWA800 and Pan-Am 103 demonstrated how parts of the aircraft oversped and broke apart into major sections - exactly how evidence suggests MH17 broke apart. The MH17 tail detached and fell earlier than the main body. The cockpit section was in a completely different location.


 * --Charles Wood (talk) 10:40, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Seconded - or firsted and thirded, whatever. PA 103 debris spread - almost totally perpendicular to flight path, due to wind. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (except) "The MH17 tail detached and fell earlier than the main body. The cockpit section was in a completely different location." Correction: the cockpit and nose (and a bit of the forward plane behind that), perforated, came off first. The rest of it to the tail apparently hit in one piece, aside maybe from the (right?) wing, which was on fire. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Which air route was MH17 flying over Ukraine? Russian ATC radar says L69. FlightRadar24 says L980! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure ATM, but keeping discussion moving. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)