Talk:Shelling of Salah Eddin Mosque

Why Imam Al-Jumeili?
Well, another mosque is attacked, an Imam killed with curious precision, and the anti-Islam Alawite regime has not been blamed. That's one reason rebels would do this,but no such sign. LCC omits it completely. SOHR is vague. I looked around for Arabic sources on him pre-dating his death. I tried English too, but found nothing. In Arabic, one clue, from November 17, 2011. Filed from Aleppo, the people of Manbej, Al-Bab (the door - an Aleppo district), Deir Hoffer (?) and Jarablus reject Arab League demands. He's given as (Gtranslated) Sheikh Abdul Latif al-Jumaili tribal brown beautiful ( شيخ عشيرة بني جميل - sheikh clan of Bani Jamil, Jamil being somewhere in Aleppo as well, I gather) Check this - middle paragraph matters, the others just for context:
 * Abdul Salam al-Ibrahim Mukhtar Eisha: reject the decisions of the Arab League and condemn all forms and call on the Syrian Arab people proud and authentic to cohesion hand-in-hand behind the leadership of President Bashar al-Assad order to cope with all the conspiracies woven against the country and build our country Syria's development and modernization.


 * Sheikh Abdul Latif al-Jumaili tribal brown beautiful (sheikh clan of Bani Jamil): Today we say yes to reform under the leadership of President Bashar al-Assad and deplore and condemn issued by the Arab League resolutions aimed to destabilize Syria and undermine its security and reject sectarian strife and we with comprehensive reform.


 * Fred Daher of Busltan clan: No to foreign intervention, yes to reform under the leadership of President Bashar al-Assad.

So I'm thinking it's that kind of statement is what got him killed. Unless this is a different Sheikh Abdul-Latif al-Jumaili in Aleppo they refer to, and then the mix-up might explain it. (Being an Imam is not mentioned). Also here is a video of him and his funeral, and more from Addounia, plus an external image of the mosque. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Related video, Jan. 2 or earlier: Fatwa by Al Jazeera's Top Cleric: Pro-Gov't Syrian Civilians Are Legitimate Targets
 * Presenter, reading a "viewer" question: "He asks Is it permissible to target anyone who helps the Syrian "killer" regime, as he says, starting from (Islamic) scholars with the regime?" Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi: "those who are working with the authority (regime), we must fight them all, whether they are members of the military, civilians, (Islamic) scholars, or ignorants." Sharia-legal precedent/ruling, motive, means, opportunity... it's all there. I think they shelled the mosque, and when the people came running out, they picked off the Imam. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:58, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

A Christian Funeral?
The funeral video: is that his? He doesn't look at 0:16 much like the guy in the other two images before. Funerals in Islam are supposed to be quick tough - buried within 24 hours. A lot of people to get dressed up and gathered so quickly. And, I don't know my garb terms, but isn't that some Christian/Catholic/Overthere Orthodox attire the pallbearers wear? And the biblical-looking images of ...people! Adorn this place of worship... What do you guys think?--Caustic Logic (talk) 14:44, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah I wondered about that a bit when I first watched it (in passing), but thought it had something to do with the "crowning" of that orthodox bigwig around the same time. On second look, yeah, those costumes and pics are certainly Christian in some form. They seem to call him a Mufti, not an Imam (there is a difference but don't call me out on it). And the damaged mosque shown is not our one. It (still) has two minarets, not one decapitated, and looks different in general. I heard that a second mosque was damaged that day, but forgot where I heard it and if it was in Aleppo (think so though). Jobar or something? Anyway, can't make sense of that video. --CE (talk) 22:06, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll look more into Mufti vs. Imam. Both are specifically Sunni terms, it seems, not clear on the details - "preacher" doesn't seem to be exactly the meaning of either. The damaged moqsue shown ... in the picture I posted, or in the funeral video? I haven't got a grip on these yet either. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The mosque shown in the funeral video from the outside with a hole in its front isn't the one we established as Salah al-Din mosque. --CE (talk) 02:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Footage of damaged mosque?
Found this over at Urs' - apparently shows the SAA advancing through the district, including the mosque in question where we see damage likely caused by shelling. Should be easy to verify location - this was friday, so likely the shelling happened during prayer and the video is from afternoon, if it's authentic. Will check later if nobody beats me to it.

Qd8KPlslD0M

--CE (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's the Mosque with 100% certainty, i'd say. The way the footway swings on the approach to it combined with the white building right of the mosque wall, and the parking lot at 0:40+ with the canopy over the main entrance very much visible in some older Google Earth pics. --CE (talk) 23:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * A quick look and I offer a less informed 85% sure. Petri's weighs about twice, so we have 95% sure between us. CE? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Uhm, I'd say it's unlikely that Petri's assessment will bring average certainty much down. ;o) --CE (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not know what you are talking about, but this (Goole maps) is the mosque on the video. Google Earth says it is Salah al-Din Mosque (جامع صلاح الدين). -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that makes 96,25% by CL's conditions... ;oD --CE (talk) 22:22, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Just watched again and then unembedded (not news anymore) the video down in the Ras Al-Ayn article and figured I'd check the channel to see if they have footage about the ongoings in Ashrafiyah, and yes, like in Ras Al-Ayn there's an abundance of long films with footage ... in Kurdish which isn't better than Arabic as far as my skills are concerned. Check it out. Didn't make it to the long ones yet but first checked the short ones from Feb 8, and here it is - what we see with the Syrian Army approaching from roughly the south, the Kurds observe from what I would say is the West*. Compare the little dome with the five windows below it on the approach in the above video to the little dome seen in the following video, starting around a minute in. Same mosque. And the top of the Minaret is gone, and that can be seen in a photo in the above video as well, at 1:22. Missed that before. qVpBmO7TVDQ (*edit: no, little dome and large dome both in front of the minaret, with the minaret "between them", that must mean it's also from the south, from the street behind the field with the footway, likely somewhere here --CE (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2013 (UTC))

--CE (talk) 21:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The first minutes of this have more footage - there's a hole in one of the small domes, maybe from what came down from the minaret, or an additional shell. They moan three YPG fighters with picture, but no Imam. Watched only the first few minutes, seems to repeat same footage later and some interviews n stuff. --CE (talk) 12:10, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Official Sources
Syrian Radio and TV (SANA English):
 * Sheikh Abdullatif al-Jamili, Imam of Salah Eddin Mosque in al-Ashrafia in Aleppo city  Martyred after Terrorists Group Fired Mortar Shells at the Mosque from Bani Zaid Area

Islamic Invitation Turkey (Hezbollah supporters):
 * The Syrian SANA news agency said that Sheikh Abdullatif al-Jamili lost his life on Friday when the mortars hit Salahuddin mosque in al-Ashrafiah neighborhood of the flashpoint city.
 * Repots also say at least eight people, including children and women, were killed in a separate mortar attack in the city on the same day.

SOHR
Syrian Observatory for Human Rights mentions the incident in its daily summary for Feb. 8:
 * Aleppo Province 17 civilians were killed. 14, including 2 children and a woman, were killed by bombardment on the neighbourhoods of al-Sha'ar, Masaken Hanano, and al-Haydariya of Aleppo city. A man was shot by sniper in old Aleppo. A mosque preacher was killed, when an anonymous mortar shell targeted to hit the mosque fell, in the Ashrafiya neighbourhood, where other sources said that he was assassinated by gunfire infront of the mosque.

LCC Report
Local Coordination Committees (LCC): Syria Today 8-2-2013 Posted by abeer on February 9th, 2013. This is long and repetitive. I didn’t check the videos. I hope this is a fairly complete compression of what they say about Aleppo that day. Note the mosque and Imam are not mentioned, but surrounding clues might be present (I don't know all the areas named by a long shot).
 * "By the end of Friday the LCC managed to document121 martyrs ... 32 in Aleppo … In Aleppo the demonstrators confirmed the Revolution objectives and demands for regime’s ouster in 41 demonstrations."
 * Government artillery and rocket/missile attack in neighborhoods: Aquol neighborhood (aftermath video), al-Bab ("artillery shelling from Qweres airport"), Haydarieh neighborhood (at least one dead), Masaken Hanano (eight killed, "dozens of wounded," video included), Mashhad, Sakour, Sha’ar (ten killed). "An artillery shell falls in al-Kefah school in Tareeq Halab neighborhood, no death nor injured reported.” "Binkwan Factory in Haydarieh neighborhood burned down due to several shells landing on it." Surrounding towns shelled: al-Azeiziyeh, Hreitan, Sfeira, at least.
 * "Mortar shelling targeted Qattanah neighborhood"
 * "Fierce clashes " "between the Free Syrian Army and regime forces" were reported in: Seif-Dawleh neighborhood, Ashrafieh neighborhood (since morning), "around Muhlab barracks in Masaken Al-Sabil neighborhood," Safira "nearby the entrances of defense factories"at least.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:39, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Location
Ashrafiya neighborhood, according to this handy map, is in Aleppo's northwest. It shows up here on Wikimapia, while Google maps has it expanding to the west, titled in the middle, inside Wikimapia's Rasafeh neighborhood. The mosque is labeled here, middle/west of the district. "Fierce clashes" with mortar-armed rebels were reported there by the LCC, and a mortar strike on the mosque reported by everyone but them. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:57, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Was looking as well and am a bit confused - searching for videos it seems like Salah al-Din is not (only?) the name of the mosque, but of the district. Saw a fierce battle last August, see reports of Al Jazeera and PressTV (with the killed Maja Naser). One video uploaded Feb 9 shows (the sound and smoke of) a heavy shell. Wasn't able to locate it (the flood light in the background as only distinct landmark) in what wikimapia has as Ashrafiya, although there are sports places to the south-east. --CE (talk) 14:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a Saleheddin district in the southwest that has, I think, a couple of stadiums. Different area. No time to look at this stuff today, so I hope it'sjust some confusion. <--- CL
 * Ah, yes, thanks, it's even called Salah al-Din on this Guardian map which shows clashes in both that quarter and Ashrafiya last year. As all sources say Ashrafiya it seems like in this case Salah al-Din is the name of the mosque, not to be confused with the name of the district on the other end of town. Although that shell in the video might have gone down over there. --CE (talk) 09:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * FTR, very likely match for the shelling video close to the stadiums in the SW district here. --CE (talk) 19:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The district Bani Zaid where the official sources say the mortars came from is not far from there NNW. Found this item on breakingnews.sy (Feb 8, most read of the week) which provides essential context:


 * Syrian Army will initiate a military operation against armed men in Bani-Zed.


 * Syrian Arab Army has achieved an important field triumphs by killing and arresting about 100 members of al-Nusra Front, while it continues rallying his troops in al-Ashrafieh neighborhood before initiating a military operation against Free Army militia in Bani-Zed area of Aleppo .


 * Military reinforcement for Syrian Army have arrived to al-Ashrafieh area, according to Breaking News Network reporter, to initiate a military operation against the gunmen in Bani-Zed area to take control over the area and to secure more than 20 neighboring areas that were attacked by armed men from Bani-Zed.


 * Braking News Network reporter points out that Syrian Army has confronted to continued attacks on the third square of al-Ashrafieh, what resulted in the death of 34 of the Free Army militia’s rank


 * --CE (talk) 15:29, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Reports on documents.sy are consistent with that - in usual brevity they report the mosque attack with dead imam and the army "moving forward" through the district on the 8th and clashes in Bani Zaid on the 9th. Nothing on the 10th. --CE (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

These two map videos from Verified News may have relevant information on the military situation at the time of the incident. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * WWIII Syria Aleppo FSA Advances Cut Off Airport Roads Army Clears Western Aleppo & Khan Al-Assal – Feb 5, 2013
 * WWIII Syria Aleppo FSA Takes Sheikh Said Attacks From Tah Izza Syrian Army Couterattacks – Feb 4, 2013

Is that the Kurdish quarter?
To make it more complicated: Was aware of heavy clashes between SAA and YPG in Aleppo over the last days, but somehow failed to connect the dots - Al-Asrafiya seems to be the Kurdish quarter where they took/take place. A PYD statement here, video and article from today on Firat news. That would explain that the FSA-aligned sources are so relatively silent on this. Jeeez, what a mess. --CE (talk) 17:47, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Good find, thanks. I also noticed on the edges, SE of the mosque, Christian and other cemeteries, FWIW. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Complicating. SOHR on Facebook: Aleppo province: In Aleppo city there have been continuing clashes between members of the Kurdish Defence Units (YPG) and regime forces, including the national defence army (pro-regime militia) since dawn, clashes broke out in the area last friday. So far 7 YPG fighters, 5 civilians and 19 regime forces have been killed.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The Kurds on twitter are now reporting 48 killed army soldiers and 22 arrested in clashes. Comical Ali doesn't mention Ashrafiya at all in his latest "killed rats" lists (but Taldou with another killed Bakkour who is according to him from Lebanon). This and that just published German article give some background on the clashes. According to them, it started with Army bombardment and attacks against Kurdish civilians on Jan 31 already, killing 20-25 and arresting about 100. Then there had been clashes over a period which escalated on Feb 8 after FSA forces entered the neighborhood and the Army attacked them. So there's three-way fighting in unclear alliances going on, apparently. The German article confirms the 7 dead YPG fighters SOHR reports. The Imam and the Mosque are not mentioned again - and I still can't make sense of who perpetrated that (although I noticed your interesting clues about his statements above). Reminds me of the old DAF song "Alle gegen Alle". --CE (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC) and --CE (talk) 19:11, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I checked if it's really the same district. It is - see map in this Landis piece once again predicting the immediate fall of Aleppo - in last October. --CE (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * And the other mentioned Kurdish district Sheikh Maqsoud is directly bordering Ashrafiya to the NE. Densely packed. Rudaw article says there are +600,000 Kurds in those two districts. Madness. Curse the criminals who brought their hordes to the city. --CE (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Qassam rockets and other off-topic oddities
Maybe on the same day somewhere around Damascus - have the tab open and before it's lost I put it here for your digestion ... for the rocket, eh, record: Home-made missile with alleged reach of 60 km. Don't wanna know where this thing landed. As friendly youtube-commentator Mohammed Abdellah points out, those are for "punishment" of cities and villages full of Alawites and other heretics. --CE (talk) 12:34, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Off topic – not safe for work: YouTube says this is somehow related to the video. I don't know why. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL. Rude. Are they making fun of Adnan Al-Aroor? Can't be enough of that AFAIC. Another off-topic thing (will move this to the end of page FTM after edit): Demonstration in Bustan Al-Qasr (next to the recent massacre river). What we see are FSA guys demonstrating for the release of one of their buddies - in front of the Jabhat Al-Nusra Sharia court prison. He's locked up for insulting the caliphate... *lol* *rolleyes* --CE (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Saw the video but didn't watch it. Will probably move this later. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Feel free to move if you have a better idea where to - maybe the Uni bombing? --CE (talk) 14:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)