File talk:Defector satto tripoli.jpg

Based on ... ? Tripoli Lebanon is SW, so my deduction was it'd be a SW road, and he says Saad ... well, area, actually ... I'm all ears. --Caustic Logic 22:48, 6 October 2012 (EST)

I see you explained it at the other page "I think if you compare the transcript to what he shows in the video, it seems quite clear that he located Satto and Tripoli like this. Tripoli road going west (to Lebanon) would make sense." I need to watch the video, clearly. Usually a ring road like that is called Ring Road, 1st, 2nd, whatever. It don't point to Tripoli (in general, wouldn't be called that). I'll see how he points, etc. and report back. --Caustic Logic 22:52, 6 October 2012 (EST)


 * Saw the video, have no idea where Tripoli road is. -- Petri Krohn 09:01, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * The English text is a translation of the (German translation of the) transcript of the Russian dub of Arabic in the video. Go to were it tells what happened at the clocktower.


 * And here is the street, where the units of the bandits have gathered at the day of the massacre, and from there they took the checkpoints at the place with the clock under fire, to distract the attention of the soldiers from the assault, which should happen from the east.


 * Go to 2:56 in the video. Play after reading the next paragraph in the transcript:


 * The main road from Al-Hula [Taldou - apxwn] runs from south to north. Here you can see the corner of Satto Street, where the unit of the Al-Hassan clan has gathered. Further south there is a left turn; this road leads to the water tank. Further south down the main street, we see an arch over the entrance to the city.


 * Watch until 3:20. Earlier in the text he describes what happened on the road leading to the water tank:


 * Larger units of rebels gathered on the Tripoli road that leads to water storage, more (units) also in the district Al-Nasiriyah, on the Satto-road and on the road that leads to the confectionery factory. The northern units opened fire to distract the attention of the military post (checkpoint) on the place with the clock. I was with a unit on the Tripoli road, which operated in conjunction with other units.


 * Check? --CE 09:20, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * I do not know what "water storage" and "water tank" are, if they are the same. The only ones I can think of are the reservoir in the south and the waterworks south of "Shumariyeh", which has a water tower. He points west (left), but I know of nothing water related there. I could imagine, that "Tripoli Road" is in fact Main Street – It leads to the "water storage" reservoir. -- Petri Krohn 09:29, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * He shows the water storage/tank at 3:13-3:14, the rather large whitish walled building on green, just after the first little right turn on the right side of the street. --CE 09:40, 7 October 2012 (EST)
 * The German translation which is of higher quality calls it both times "Wasserspeicher" which translates to cistern/reservoir/water tank. --CE 09:45, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * What he shows is not a water tank but a normal if fancy house. See older maps on Google Earth for a better view. -- Petri Krohn 11:33, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Maybe it's a cistern under the house. Can you explain what he does from 2:56 to 3:20, from the roundabout to the arches, without this being Tripoli road? Beside that, it makes no sense to gather on main street if you want to take over the military intelligence HQ on very main street. --CE 11:50, 7 October 2012 (EST)

CL Checks
Okay, would you believe I've never seen the footage where he points on the map? I just downloaded it, I thought, realized it's not the right video, had to track down what's even referenced here or I'd be lost. I'm getting it ready to look, but might take a little bit. Thanks for all your Wikimapia work, CE. --Caustic Logic 14:33, 7 October 2012 (EST)
 * Referring, again, to this posting of the 4:30 ANNA video. Okba Al-Sayed lived north of the arches, on the west side? (3:28-32) Well, he wound up southeast of there, at Aref's place, it seems.
 * No, he didn't. He is where he belongs. It's just that the Russian dub isn't synchronous with what the Defector says in Arabic. The dub is ahead. It's crystal clear in the transcript:
 * The Department of Military Intelligence was located just north of this arch, on the left side of the main road, and also on the roof of this building there was an observation post. Had the security forces opened fire towards the north, they would have hit (injured) their own comrades. [here the video sequence ends, while he passes the arches with his pen, but the Russian guy has already said:] On the right side of the main road, in the south of the archway, there is the home of th family Okba Al-Said (which was wiped out as the first family by the bandits).
 * --CE 16:46, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Yep, caught that below. Two stupid running leaps at the thing, each a bit less stupid. Third time, maybe. --Caustic Logic 17:12, 7 October 2012 (EST)

Watching it, it's as simple as this: Only Main Street is shown, not what we've been calling Saad. This is confusing, but here's a different view. Saad or Satto (possibly the same) and Tripoli are named, but as roads that cross, both of them pointed to. (just what he's saying when is not totally clear). As presented in text, in order: "Larger units of rebels gathered on the Tripoli road that leads to water storage" (main street, to reservoir/dam? the road in question anyway, but where/where from on that road isn't certain but for those specified), "more (units) also in the district Al-Nasiriyah," check on that, trusting the label reading, that road is implied ... "on the Satto-road" as the only main cross-road in that stretch, Satto is presumably the Nassiriyah one, unless herefers without pointing (sinceit'ss off screen) to Saad Road. And then more "on the road that leads to the confectionery factory," almost the same street, really, unnamed, I'd think Ring Road, but I'm no expert. It's that way in Libya. 3:15 the gesture (vague? frivolous? scattering sprinkles?) suggests to me confections, plus it's mentioned second.


 * This part of the transcript is not shown on the map at all, it's much earlier in the interview when on the video the guy sits in the dark talking. --CE 16:46, 7 October 2012 (EST)

And another yet. What he says on video Syria news, near the bottom: "The main road from Al-Hula [Taldou - apxwn] runs from south to north." Main Street. "Here you can see the corner of Satto Street, where the unit of the Al-Hassan clan has gathered. Further south there is a left turn; this road leads to the water tank." Okay - he was indicating watered fields, up that ring road maybe Tripoli road. But I don't see any particular noteworthy water thing. Some water towers, probably, but those are everywhere. We have the reservoir down south, best accessed by Saad Road, so maybe he means if you go here and then turn left at the next road and go south... ?? "Further south down the main street, we see an arch over the entrance to the city." Things he witnessed or knew of happened there-firing at MI HQ (he points at the wrong spot, however! but a similar one), Oqba, not where he's pointing when he says it, but "On the right side of the main road, in the south of the archway, there is the home of the family Okba Al-Said." --Caustic Logic 16:18, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * See above, also what I asked Petri. What does he describe between 2:56 to 3:20, from the roundabout to the arches, if not Satto and Tripoli road? --CE 16:46, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Described: Cross streets with this main north-south road. Satto, corner - (okay, that's not Saad, I'm now sure, unlike above) - the one going to Nassiriyah. The left turn "further south" (would actually be a right turn if going south) onto the ring road and reportedly water storage. And elswhere, he says this Tripoli Road, which he was on, leads to water storage. I don't see where, and it's possible he means the reservoir/lake behind the dam, down Saad Road, but that would require a right turn (not left) and then a left... I'm still not unconfused, really, but those last points are worth considering anyway. --Caustic Logic 17:12, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Let's leave aside for the moment if he is right about Satto road and if it's the same as Saad road, all i'm trying to do is establish what he describes. When he comes down with the pen/the map scrolls down from the roundabout, there is only one corner he shows going off from main street, and that is the one which I marked in red. You can also hear Musin say "Hassan", at that point apparently synchronous. So this must be what he describes as Satto road, where the Hassan-Clan gathered. That's Petri's 240E road. The road leading to Al-Nasiriyah is 500E as shown on the dot-connecting page. Between that point and arriving at the arches, what he does and what he describes makes it clear that the road leading to west, 550W, which i marked green, is the one he says leads to the watertank/storage. The part where he says that the road leading to the watertank/storage is called Tripoli road is much earlier in the interview, and you quoted it above (I now bolded it in your text). As I told Petri, it makes no sense that rebels gather on Tripoli road when it is synonymous with main street (leading to the Dam/Waterworks far south). Because he then goes on to describe how he and that group attacked the military intelligence, on that main street. You don't gather under the nose of those you want to surprise attack, do you? And the Saad road we know as AbdulRazak home is far away and has nothing to do with the scenario he describes. --CE 18:20, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Sorry, I keep getting little things wrong (it happens, but not usually this much). I needed to look at the bigger map. Gah, how much time do we have to spend on this? Let's get it right here. Saato, as you say, further north, NOT leading to Nassiriyah. 240 not 500. Okay... already agreed on the western/curving/ring road. As for gathering, fair point of course. So you suppose they gathered there, taking that southwest (Saad?) road maybe, to come out on Main and attack the intel HQ from just north? Could well be what he means. If one needed to gather again, you wopuldn't do it right on Main, but I had this image before like so:
 * Rebels gather north/east/south, then attack.In the north, the roundabout was attacked and distracted -I presume, to let people slip in at/within reach of that point. Simplest route is drive down main, already gathered, and just attack the HQ.
 * But either could be. I don't know if we can get an exact result from this, really. But what you're seeing seems like one of the better ways to read it. --Caustic Logic 20:55, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * "Gah, how much time do we have to spend on this?" - Exactly. The names of the streets don't really matter that much, the gathering places do. If you look at it, this image only exists to illustrate my original point(s) on the dot-connecting page. If Petri doesn't disagree, we have established that the defector indeed describes those two places (and a third we've by now established as Al-Nasiriyah leading to 500E) as where rebel units attacked main street from. So as far as i'm concerned, this is the end of this page. Did you see my wikimapia Hassan/Raslan clue over there? --CE 23:56, 7 October 2012 (EST)


 * Not yet. Next open tab. --Caustic Logic 08:17, 8 October 2012 (EST)


 * The defector gives us clues, but we cannot make conclusions based on the statements alone. To write about the May 25 rebel attack in Taldou we need to connect these statements other evidence – physcal evidence in the form of battle damage and video evidence. A few days ago I linked to an important video that definitely shows May 25th battles, but I cannot locate it now. Adam pointed out that the nearly decapitated body on the sidewalk was later displayed at mosque morgue. The video was published by a pro "regime" channel. The way I understood the action was that people were running toward the clock tower from the east on the major east-west street. Should study it more closely now, that I have a better understanding of the geography. There is also another video showing a rebel attack. It was labeled in the Western media as an "Assad" artillery attack, but closer inspection of the cloud of dust reveals it is in fact an RPG-7 fired by some rebel. Some of the Brigade videos may also be from May 25th, but it will be more difficult to establish the date. -- Petri Krohn 08:32, 8 October 2012 (EST)


 * Bump! Guy has orange striped shirt or something. Adam, please find the video, or my link to it at least... or even the photo of the body. -- Petri Krohn 09:55, 10 October 2012 (EST)


 * re-bump. I must have missed this, no idea what you mean. Tried the search function, though, which is not as useless as I thought when you click on "everything" in the menu at top after the search. Found rebel vid's possibly being the ones you search: Talk:Houla:Scene, File_talk:Thomson_witness_Houla.png, Talk:May_25_rebel_attack_in_Taldou --CE 21:51, 10 October 2012 (EST)


 * Found it. Talk:The Houla massacre Petri Krohn 08:18, 11 October 2012 (EST)


 * Sorry I missed all this earlier. It's addressed now on Talk:Houla, May 25: Who Was in Control?