Talk:Douma Market Attack, August 2015

Start Notes
Sorry, I took too long putting this on the blog first. No time to copy over, with the pressing project, and the blog needs more traffic anyway. Some good findings already, like 95 victims at least dumped unclaimed in mass graves, 100 of 105 in the VDC list are adult males, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Later, much later it seems on my end: damn guys, nothing? :/ --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Calls for Investigation
Were there any? I don't remember seeing anyone demanding an investigation. In fact, people like DeMistura used language suggesting one wasn't needed, the government denials were obvious lies to be dismissed out-of-hand. But in case there is any request, here's a space to cover it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:00, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Timeline Questions
Human Rights Watch was told by a mix of activists and Douma local authorities "the four airstrikes hit the crowded markets, known locally as the al-Hal, al-Houboub, and al-Ghanam markets, at about noon. All three markets are within 500 meters of one another." No specific time is cited. Others say mid-day. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The best visual measure (pending) is maybe from a photo (posted here, original link misplaced...) clearly some minutes before the video still I used to estimate an attack around 1:30 PM. That showed one massive blurred plume rising high, while this earlier and clearer photo shows four distinct plumes much earlier an smaller. Maybe THIS is ten minutes after? 20? Line of sight yet to determine, sun angle relative to that seems a bit to the left but almost from behind. (Early tries suggested it's filmed a bit from the west of the video still, closer to Douma, and the sunlight in maybe 194deg, around 1 PM ) Final estimate answer in time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

One measure is when people started chattering about it. rebel-linked Douma Revolution on Twitter, should be a quickly informed source, has this timeline (all auto-translated from Arabic): 1:27 PM 1st tweet "Urgent :: #دوما coordination :: huge explosions rocking the city, together with constant overflights of warplanes in the sky and ..." - Updates at 1:28,1:42("Urgent :: #دوما :: flight coordination MiG flight now in Sky City always after targeting crowded city markets by citizens.") 1:46 "martyrs and tens of injuries after the targeting system to market in the city with rockets vacuum..." etc.

2:04 "warplanes massacre more than 200 wounded and 35 Shahid ..."

2:19 first video

2:23 more than 55 dead

2:23 dead men and boys photo taken around 1:15

2:36 market damage --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Rigor Mortis and Death Time
Okay, I started with a question about one victim seen in this earliest-posted photo of the gathered bodies of men and boys, the few dozen unwrapped bloody ones. That seems to be 2:53 PM (10 hours ahead of the Tweet time in California) On the left are two things that made me wonder: a man on a children's slide, feet sticking out, and a guy who looks a bit worried about the camera. The legs suggested rigor mortis. But looking closer. I now don't think so. Left leg only sticks out, and I think that's from his knee being above that curve, so that's just shin-straightness, not interesting.

First, can anyone talk me back into seeing that? It was interesting. Takes about 2 hours to start, more to get that stiff, and I have the plume of smoke video timed to about one hour before the photo (solar azimuth 220 degrees, +/- 4 degrees), around 1:35-1:50 PM. So attack, around 1:25-1:35. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Otherwise, the bodies here seem relaxed and non-stiff an hour after the bombing. Arms lay flat, nothing sticks out. Maybe they are stiff and jut carried in carefully so they stay stiff in that set position, but I'll say relaxed like they should be. Besides being pulled from whatever and gathered suspiciously quick, there's a question in their lack of rigor mortis. Is this before or after it? It takes hours to start, and up 'til about a day after death to relax fully. Were they generally killed about an hour before the photo, or more like 24 hours before? To me, the blood on them seems pretty dry for having died just an hour ago or less, after injuries played their course. They don't seem to be bleeding out any more either. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Less Clear Victims

 * Late note, there was a similar but smaller market bombing massacre on Aug. 12 with 29 dead men and boys, and unlisted girls ... (see VDC database) Some pictures given as the 16th are recycled from this. Several wrapped men, but bloodier - an infant completely charred black and crackling - a boy with his guts out, alive in clinic - a blood-and-dust covered baby, alive in clinic - mangled kid in yellow next to a flipped motorcycle - blood on flatbread - some others I'm trying to remember to note. A mass grave scene widely re-posted on Twitter is also re-cycled from somewhere. I'm sure I've seen it, but can't remember where. Maybe Daraya Massacre, 2012? The crying girl in maroon hijab (see here) (not the same photo, but the same girl, I think, is seen in other photos from the 12th, like this one - just a repeat market customer?)


 * Those considered below do not fit this category; their pictures are from August 16, or from somewhewre further away in time or space. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I have at least 4 child victims from two photos found on twitter, one common and one not. All point to horrible massacre activities. To me, anyway. Taking second thoughts. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Head-Hacked Kids?
(links, pics maybe should be here too - eventually) three child victims, appears to be 2 girls and a boy, all aged like 3-7, alleged by tweets as part of some "Douma massacre" on August 16. My impression, sort-of averaged across all three as I can see: they and their clothes are intact, not dusty - I think they were not involved in a missile attack. They have slightly roughed up knees is all, aside from the fatal head wounds (signs mixed/uncertain, but no other wounds are seen). These are the only deceased girls I've seen, not recorded by the VDC who have no girls listed. The boy actually coule be listed - they miss female entries a lot, fill them in months later for some reason. Anyway, not named yet, killed differently from others and similarly to each other, in a manner consistent with execution. This furthers the evidence for another rebel massacre of gender-segregated captives. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC) and cleanup/additions Caustic Logic (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/08/douma-market-attack-girl-victims.html


 * Updates, worked-In above: a 3rd girl alleged, horrible hacked-open head, brains and scalp everywhere. Not a shelling victim. Knees unseen. And a 4th, it seems, less clear, carried by at a distance, if not mis-attributed, see above. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)and correction Caustic Logic (talk) 10:59, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Drawn-and-Quartered Boy?
Attached to the burned faces study for now is this less clear case from a twitter photo about Douma Massacre, August 16. It might be easier to say if it's recycled from anywhere, a horrendous image. Not shared directly there, only semi-graphic pics. But a crop on his raw face, burned just like a mask over all his face and nothing else, worse than any others by far. And the scariest thing is what happened to roughly remove his arms at the elbows, and almost remove his legs at the knees. I had drawn-and-quartered - pulled apart between vehicles driving opposite ways - come into my mind, and it won't leave now. Wherever this picture is, it's no bomb or missile to detonate at each major joint like that (shoulders injured as well, hips unclear), I'm pretty sure of that. He's been pulled apart. Hopefully after death, but according to the medics in this rebel clinic, he's still alive at photo time. The full photo is really long, like his body now is. I hope that's some fakery. The oxygen bottle (?) tube doesn't seem to be in his mouth (pmr9 would know what that means) I'm glad this one isn't apparently on video.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/08/douma-market-attack-burned-faces.html
 * It looks as if the doctor has given up on trying to insert an endotracheal tube and is attempting a tracheostomy instead. I think it's possible that the limb injuries could be explained by high-speed impacts or crushing.  But he circumscribed burn of the entire face and nowhere else is hard to explain - why would only the face be burned if it was an explosion? Pmr9 (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. High-speed impact with weird dynamics, or crushing, could do this, but I think those would leave marks on the body. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Updates, worked-In above: no, split-off from above and emboldened: Douma Market Attack: "Assad Bombs" PULLING Children Apart? (anyone worried, it's no more graphic, photographically...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Listed Victims
Actual number questionable, but many at least have picture supports - actual names and relations, as well as age-gender, and other information, all questionable but, lacking made-up guesses, it's what we have and could be accurate. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Table (incomplete)

Citing:
 * VDC (English) = 117 warplane shelling victims, from Damascus suburbs, 08-16-2015 - all areas from are Douma unless specified, 9 exceptions all specified as died in Douma - all civilian, death by "warplane shelling."
 * LCC trans = Syrian Perspective translating LCC Arabic list of 102 names.
 * (note: same image-list is cited by Eric Draister (who can read Arabic? or has a source who can? apparently. he cited 3 women to Ziad's 2, and Ziad - not the list - goofed #10) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * (note: he's got a few goofs, but the VDC has at least one too. And in Ziad's defense the LCC list is in small resolution, with a techno-Arabic font that might be hard to read) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:59, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Vid (mainly the list of DID videos here)
 * Arabic/other: from VDC or video title, any other sources (none yet)

Ordering from VDC's, earliest entries first - order matches LCC up to a point. AM = Adult Male, etc. - using VDC's, except where challenged then ??. nl = not listed in that source. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%;" !colspan="5" style="background-color:#2F516D;color:white;"|Victims by Source !style="width:8%;"|#,G !style="width:24%;"|VDC !style="width:22%;"|LCC Trans. !style="width:22%;"|Vid !style="width:24%;"|Arabic/Other


 * 1 AM
 * Kassem al-Mansi
 * 1 Kaasim Al-Mansiy
 * VDC Arabic كاسم المنسي
 * VDC Arabic كاسم المنسي
 * VDC Arabic كاسم المنسي


 * 2 AM
 * Sameir al-Hamwi
 * 2 Sameer Al-Hammoori Abu Salaah
 * DID20
 * VDC Arabic سمير الحموري
 * VDC Arabic سمير الحموري


 * 3 AM
 * Ahmad Abdulnafe
 * 3 Ahmad ‘Abdul-Naafi’
 * VDC أحمد عبد النافع
 * VDC أحمد عبد النافع
 * VDC أحمد عبد النافع


 * 4 AM
 * Moufaq Fouad al-Hamrawi
 * 4 Muwaffaq Fu’aad Al-Hamrawi Abu Shaakir
 * 4 Muwaffaq Fu’aad Al-Hamrawi Abu Shaakir


 * 5 AM
 * Mahmoud Mahdar al-Shameih
 * 5 Mahmoud Mahdhar Al-Shaamiyya Abu Sayyaah
 * 5 Mahmoud Mahdhar Al-Shaamiyya Abu Sayyaah


 * 6 AM
 * Omar Muhder al-Shameih
 * 6 ‘Umar Mahdhar Al-Shaamiyya Abu Faaris
 * 6 ‘Umar Mahdhar Al-Shaamiyya Abu Faaris


 * 7 AM
 * Ibraheem Abdulaziz Sweidan
 * 7 Ibraaheem ‘Abdul-‘Azeez Suwaydaan Abu Maaher
 * 7 Ibraaheem ‘Abdul-‘Azeez Suwaydaan Abu Maaher


 * 8 AM
 * Mahmoud Rateb Hejazi Known as Abo Ata
 * 8 Mahmoud Raatib Hijaazi Abu ‘Ataa
 * DID5|
 * DID5|


 * 9 AM
 * Omar Khaleil Kareim Known as Abo Khaleil
 * 9 ‘Umar Khaleel Kareem (Abu Khaleel)
 * DID4
 * DID4


 * 10 AF
 * Hanein al-Daas
 * 10 Hanbal Al-Da’aas (AM, typo?)
 * DID16 حنين(Hanin, visibly female)
 * DID16 حنين(Hanin, visibly female)


 * 11 AM
 * Kassem Abdullah Sheikh al-Shabab
 * 11 Kaassim ‘Abdullah Shaykh Al-Shabaab
 * 11 Kaassim ‘Abdullah Shaykh Al-Shabaab


 * 12 AM
 * Mohammad Omar al-Sheikh
 * Muhammad ‘Umar Al-Shaykh Abu Yaassir
 * Muhammad ‘Umar Al-Shaykh Abu Yaassir


 * 13 AM
 * Basheir al-Tout
 * Basheer Al-Toot Abu Raatib
 * DID10
 * DID10


 * 14 AM
 * Fahed al-Mbayed
 * 16 Fahd Al-Mubayyidh Abu Yaaseen
 * 16 Fahd Al-Mubayyidh Abu Yaaseen


 * 15 AM
 * Quteibah Jaradeh
 * 15 Abu Nizaar Jaraada
 * 15 Abu Nizaar Jaraada


 * 16 AM
 * Ibraheem al-Afa
 * 14 Abu Riyaadh Al-‘Afaa
 * 14 Abu Riyaadh Al-‘Afaa


 * 17 AM
 * Khaled Abdo Meikeh
 * 17 Khaalid ‘Abduh Mu’ayka
 * DID32
 * DID32


 * 18 AM
 * Abo Nizar Jaradeh
 * Abo Nizar Jaradeh


 * 19 AM
 * Khaled Abdulhakeem Khabeih
 * 19 ‘Abdul-Hakeem Khibya
 * DID15
 * DID15


 * 20 AM
 * Ibraheem Ali Badran
 * 20 Ibraaheem ‘Ali Badraan
 * 20 Ibraaheem ‘Ali Badraan


 * 21 AM
 * Abdulrahman Younes
 * 21 ‘Abdul-Rahmaan Yunus
 * DID17
 * DID17


 * 22 AM
 * Imad eildein Younes
 * 22 ‘Imaadeddeen Yunus
 * DID17
 * DID17


 * 23 AM
 * Zaher Ezz el-Dein
 * 23 Zaaher ‘Izzeddeen
 * 23 Zaaher ‘Izzeddeen


 * 24 AM
 * Maher Zanoub [sic] (Arabic is Mohammed)
 * 24 Muhammad Zannoob
 * 24 Muhammad Zannoob


 * 25 AM
 * Khaled Hadeideh
 * 25 Khaalid Hadeeda
 * 25 Khaalid Hadeeda


 * 26 AM
 * Raed Kheiti
 * 27 Raald (sic) Khayti (Probably Raa`id)
 * DID29
 * DID29


 * 27 AM
 * Muhieldein Numan
 * 28 Muhyi-Al-Deen Nu’maan
 * 28 Muhyi-Al-Deen Nu’maan


 * 28 CM
 * Khaled al-Tout AM
 * 29. Khaalid Al-Toot
 * DID1 (boy, age 10-12)
 * خالد التوت
 * خالد التوت


 * 29 AM
 * Subhi Mahmoud Balleh
 * 30 Subhi Bililla
 * 30 Subhi Bililla


 * 30 AM
 * Ahmad al-Barzawi
 * 31 Ahmad Al-Barzaawi
 * 31 Ahmad Al-Barzaawi


 * 31 AM
 * Waleid Yassen Hajazi
 * 32 Waleed Yaaseen Hijaazi
 * DID34
 * DID34


 * 32 CM
 * Jehad Waleed Hejazi
 * 33 Jihaad Waleed Hijaazi
 * DID34
 * DID34


 * 33 CM
 * Mustafa Waleed Hajazi
 * 34 Mustafaa Waleed Hijaazi
 * DID34
 * DID34


 * 34 AM
 * Khaled Younes
 * 35 Khaalid Yunus
 * 35 Khaalid Yunus


 * 35 AM
 * Alaa Abduldayem
 * 36 ‘Alaa` ‘Abdul-Kareem
 * VDC Arabic علاء عبد الدايم = Dayem, LCC Arabic = Karrem
 * VDC Arabic علاء عبد الدايم = Dayem, LCC Arabic = Karrem
 * VDC Arabic علاء عبد الدايم = Dayem, LCC Arabic = Karrem


 * 36 AM
 * Hisham Arbash
 * 37 Hishaam ‘Areesh
 * DID35
 * DID35


 * 37 AM
 * Ahmad Khalil al-Ghazzawi
 * Ahmad Khalil al-Ghazzawi


 * 38
 * 38








 * 53 CM
 * Zuheir al-Masri, AM
 * 54 Zuhayr Al-Masri
 * DID23 child martyr Zuhair al-Masri (visually a boy)
 * الطفل زهير المصري (video title)
 * الطفل زهير المصري (video title)


 * 54 AM
 * Sami Shehab
 * Sami Shehab


 * 55 AM
 * Hamzah al-Sheivouni
 * Hamzah al-Sheivouni








 * 68 AM
 * Yaseen al-Aswad
 * Yaseen al-Aswad


 * 69 AM
 * Mohammad al-Aswad
 * Mohammad al-Aswad


 * 70 AM
 * Ali Omar al-Sheikh Omar
 * Ali Omar al-Sheikh Omar


 * 71 AM
 * Ahmad Balleh
 * Ahmad Balleh


 * 72 AM
 * Hassan Mohammad Marjaneh
 * Hassan Mohammad Marjaneh


 * 73 AM
 * Mohammad Saeid Khalil
 * Mohammad Saeid Khalil


 * 74 AM
 * Waheed Ajeineh
 * Waheed Ajeineh


 * 75 AM
 * Abdullah al-Barzawi
 * Abdullah al-Barzawi


 * 76 AM
 * Fayez Kabkab
 * Fayez Kabkab


 * 77 AM
 * Yosra Sheikh al-Deiah
 * 78 Yusraa Shaykh Al-Dhab’ah (?) (POSSIBLE FEMALE)
 * VDC يسرى شيخ الضيعة
 * VDC يسرى شيخ الضيعة
 * VDC يسرى شيخ الضيعة


 * 78 AM
 * Omar Abdulhaq
 * 79 ‘Umar ‘Abdul-Haqq
 * 79 ‘Umar ‘Abdul-Haqq


 * 79 AM
 * Hamzah Injeileh
 * 80 Hamza Injayla
 * 80 Hamza Injayla


 * 80 AM
 * Omar Yousef
 * Omar Yousef


 * 81 AM
 * Saleem al-Hameid
 * Saleem al-Hameid


 * 82 AM
 * Yousef Layla
 * Yousef Layla


 * 83 AM
 * Bassam al-Fustuqi
 * Bassam al-Fustuqi


 * 84 AM
 * Imad Kheiti
 * 85 ‘Imaad Khayti
 * 85 ‘Imaad Khayti


 * 85 AM
 * Hani Hasan Harmoush (from Otaya)
 * 86 Haani Harmoosh
 * 86 Haani Harmoosh


 * 86 AM
 * Fares Kareem
 * 87 Faaris Kareem
 * 87 Faaris Kareem


 * 87 AM
 * Akram Murjaneh
 * 88 Akram Mirjaana
 * 88 Akram Mirjaana


 * 88 AM
 * Ezzo Mehbani
 * 89 ‘Izzu Mahbaani
 * 89 ‘Izzu Mahbaani


 * 89 AM
 * Mohammad Subhi Zeidlati
 * 90 Muhammad Subhi Zaydalaati
 * 90 Muhammad Subhi Zaydalaati


 * 90 AM
 * Naeim Abdulhadi
 * 91 Na’eem ‘Abdul-Haadi
 * 91 Na’eem ‘Abdul-Haadi


 * 91 AM
 * Fayez al-Jroudi AM
 * 92 Faayiz Al-Jaroodi
 * 92 Faayiz Al-Jaroodi


 * 92 AM
 * Waleed al-Sheghri
 * 93 Waleed Mahmoud Al-Shughuri
 * 93 Waleed Mahmoud Al-Shughuri


 * 93 AM
 * Yousef Abd al-Kareem Hashem (from Otaya)
 * 94 Yusuf Haashim
 * 94 Yusuf Haashim


 * 94 AM
 * Ghassan al-Daj
 * 95 Ghassaan Al-Hajj
 * 95 Ghassaan Al-Hajj


 * 95 AM
 * Amein al-Daj
 * 96 Ameen Al-Hajj
 * DID26
 * أمين الدج (al-Dajj)
 * أمين الدج (al-Dajj)


 * 96 AM
 * Unidentified 1
 * nl
 * nl


 * 97 AM
 * Samer Aloush
 * nl
 * nl


 * 98 CM
 * Hassan Ibraheem al-Marhoum
 * nl
 * nl


 * 99 CM
 * Hussam Ibraheem al-Marhoum
 * nl
 * nl


 * 100 AM
 * Abdulrazzaq Mohammad Rajab AM 156196 photo
 * nl
 * nl


 * 101 AM
 * Mohammad Yaseen Henen AM
 * nl
 * nl


 * 102
 * Omar Kareem al-Quatli AM
 * nl
 * nl


 * 103
 * Unidentified 1
 * nl
 * nl


 * 104
 * Unidentified 2
 * nl
 * nl


 * 105
 * Unidentified 3
 * nl
 * nl


 * 106
 * Unidentified 4
 * nl
 * nl


 * 107
 * Unidentified 5
 * nl
 * nl


 * 108
 * Unidentified 6
 * nl
 * nl


 * 109
 * Unidentified 7
 * nl
 * nl


 * 110
 * Unidentified 8
 * nl
 * nl


 * 111
 * Unidentified 9
 * nl
 * nl


 * 112
 * Unidentified 2 AM 156374
 * nl
 * nl


 * 113
 * Unidentified 3 AM 156375
 * nl
 * nl


 * 114
 * Omar Ahmad al-Mleih AM 156377
 * nl
 * nl


 * 115 AM
 * Mohammad Fayez Harmoush AM (from Otaya) 156407
 * nl
 * nl


 * 116 AF
 * Dalal Samir Harmoush (from Otaya) 156408
 * nl
 * nl


 * 117 AM
 * Khaled Fahed al-Toukhi	AM 156480
 * nl
 * nl


 * 118 M
 * nl
 * 98 Husaam Al-Halbooni
 * 98 Husaam Al-Halbooni


 * 119 M
 * nl
 * 99 Sameer Al-Hammoori
 * 99 Sameer Al-Hammoori


 * 120 M
 * nl
 * 100 Yaasser Sulaymaan
 * 100 Yaasser Sulaymaan


 * 121 CM
 * nl
 * 101 The child Ahmad Al-Jaroodi
 * Ahmed Al-Jroudi, infant DID33
 * Ahmed Al-Jroudi, infant DID33


 * 122 M
 * nl
 * 102 Ibraaheem Khibya
 * 102 Ibraaheem Khibya


 * 123? AM
 * nl
 * nl
 * DID18 خالد محمد زنوب (Khalid Mohammed Znoub)
 * (pos. collaps with 24 - may be Mohammed Zanoub, or a son of)
 * (pos. collaps with 24 - may be Mohammed Zanoub, or a son of)