Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, April 29, 2013

Moved starting material

 * Press TV May 1: Militants carry out new chemical attack near Idlib: Syria UN envoy
 * Syria’s Ambassador to the United Nations says the foreign-backed militants in the Arab country have used chemical material against civilians during an attack on a town near Idlib. Bashar al-Jaafari said at a press conference on Tuesday that the militants spread the contents of plastic bags containing chemical material during the attack. ...Reports say that two people were killed and 20 others injured in the militants’ chemical attack in Idlib.


 * Many residents were affected by the armed groups’ “heinous and irresponsible act,” the Syrian envoy said, warning that it was an attempt to “implicate the Syrian government on a false basis.” Some of the victims were transferred to Turkey for treatment, Jaafari added. The envoy went on to say that 'today or tomorrow Ankara and Western media would launch a new propaganda campaign against Damascus and claim that the Syrian government has used chemical weapons against its own people.'  --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

And Reuters reports on the the Ottoman analysis of the patients smuggled over to them. Especially considering the claim that the chemicals are first smuggled into Syria from Turkey... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A second Syrian doctor, Ubada Alabrash, who helps treat Syrian patients at Reyhanli hospital, said they also suspected the patients had been victims of a chemical attack because those escorting them to the border had exhibited similar symptoms. Alabrash said blood samples from the patients had been sent for tests but that they had not been given the results. "I don't think the Turkish government would hide the results from us, but I understand they must be careful with it because NATO and other international bodies are also involved in this issue," he said. "Now we are waiting for the blood test results from Ankara, we have asked to be informed. We can only say after the test results if chemical weapons were used or not."

Newer Stuff

 * BBC, May 16: Syria conflict: BBC shown 'signs of chemical attack'
 * The BBC has been shown evidence apparently corroborating reports of a chemical attack in Syria last month.
 * What were the signs they were shown? As with everyone else, video of people either poisoned or faking like they are. Probably the same videos we could see (I've seen one - way behind). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A number of videos passed to the BBC appear to support these claims, but it is impossible to independently verify them. 

Also, witnesses! Actual, first-hand, can't possibly be embellishing witnesses:
 * A BBC correspondent who visited the northern town of Saraqeb was told by eyewitnesses that government helicopters had dropped at least two devices containing poisonous gas.
 * These being the plastic riot-control gas grenades Jabhat al-Nusra police are toting around in that area? That's the item they filmed as the delivery device there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Doctors at the local hospital told the BBC they had admitted eight people suffering from breathing problems. Some were vomiting and others had constricted pupils, they said. One woman, Maryam Khatib, later died. ... Mrs Khatib's son Mohammed had rushed to the scene to help his mother and was also injured in the attack. "It was a horrible, suffocating smell. You couldn't breathe at all. You'd feel like you were dead. You couldn't even see. I couldn't see anything for three or four days," Mr Khatib told the BBC. A doctor who treated Mrs Khatib said her symptoms corresponded to organophosphate poisoning and that samples had been sent for testing.
 * To find: what are organophosphates? Do they constrict pupils like sarin famously does? Is there proof of constricted pupils? Are the victim's eyes the same striking shade of green seen on two myosis sufferers videos-recorded in Jobar? Then compare to this last quote: --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * From Wikipedia: "Organophosphates are the basis of many insecticides, herbicides, and nerve gases."
 * Also here: Nerve agents are a class of phosphorus-containing organic chemicals (organophosphates) that disrupt the mechanism by which nerves transfer messages to organs. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, a former commanding officer at the UK's Joint Chemical Biological Radiological Nuclear Regiment, said the testimony and evidence from Saraqeb was "strong, albeit incomplete". In Saraqeb and in three similar events in Syria in recent weeks, "people have got ill and died and their symptoms are what we would expect to see from a nerve type of agent, be it sarin or be it organophosphate," Mr de Bretton-Gordon said.


 * UPI: Blast kills 13 in Damascus; suspected chemical attack kills 2 in Idlib
 * Elsewhere, two people were killed and 20 others were injured Tuesday when planes dropped bags of suspected chemicals in Idlib province, al-Jazeera reported. Videos from the Qatari news network appear to show victims having difficulty breathing, and in one, a patient at a makeshift hospital has white foam coming from his mouth.
 * (side-note) Forty-two people suffocated to death last week after an alleged chemical attack on a Damascus suburb, rebels said.


 * RT: Syrian rebels 'used unknown chemicals’ against civilians in Idlib – state news agency
 * Syrian opposition fighters have allegedly used unknown chemicals against residents in the town of Saraqib in the northwestern province of Idlib to later put the blame on Assad forces, SANA news agency reports citing a government official.


 * The source stated that on Monday “terrorists” collected residents of Saraqib near the southern entrance to the town and made them open “plastic bags” containing some unknown powder, SANA reported on Tuesday.


 * As a result, some people suffered “suffocation, tremors and problems with breathing.”


 * Later, militants took the injured to hospitals on the territory of Turkey with the goal of accusing President Bashar Assad’s army of using chemical weapons, the official said.


 * Later in the day, the report was confirmed by Syrian Ambassador to the United Nations, Bashar Ja'afari.


 * “Today or tomorrow you’ll hear from the Turkish government that they have new evidence that the Syrian government used a chemical weapon in Saraqib,” he told a media conference, cites Itar-Tass.


 * SANA: Terrorists Exploit Incident of Fumes Killed two People, Transfer them to Turkey to accuse Syrian Government
 * ''IDLEB, (SANA) – Mounting fumes from gallons containing some liquid materials, which were stored by a shepherd in his house in Saraqeb town in Idleb countryside,  have killed his guest and him as one of the children in the house opened one of the gallons.


 * A source in the province told SANA reporter that after the two people died, the housewife and her children went out to the street frightened, adding that an armed terrorist group gave them protective masks and brought three people they kidnapped at a later time and took them to the house to make them inhale the fumes. The source added that the three people also died after inhaling the fumes, pointing out that the armed terrorist group, affiliated to Jabhat al-Nusra, transferred the bodies of the dead people to the Turkish territories to make use of the incident against the Syrian state.


 * Earlier, terrorists threw "unknown powder" in the face of a number of citizens in Idleb to accuse the army of using chemical weapons against citizens, an official source told SANA reporter. The source explained that the terrorists brought bags containing "unknown powder" and opened them in the face of a number of citizens whom they had gathered in Shabour neighborhood and the southern entrance of Saraqib town in the countryside of Idleb, causing suffocation, shiver and respiratory symptoms among the citizens.


 * The source added that the terrorists then took the injured citizens to Turkish hospitals to accuse the Syrian armed forces of using chemical weapons.


 * The source noted that this happened after a unit of the armed forces on Monday targeted terrorist groups in Saraqib town, killing and injuring numbers of terrorists, including non-Syrians.

Varied Findings in Turkey
After the dead and injured were evacuated across the border to Turkey, it was hoped tests there would show they'd been exposed to chemical weapons. The first specific news back, however, was contrary.
 * Global Post, May 5: Turkish doctors say no nerve gas in Syrian victims' blood
 * ''Doctors in Turkey say initial tests of blood samples from victims of a suspected chemical weapons attack in Syria last month are negative for sarin gas.

Medics tested the blood samples — which were taken from some 13 victims of an attack that included white powder in the northern village of Saraqeb on April 29 — at the Reyhanli hospital on the same day, but did not find anything unusual, they said. ''
 * They tested the blood specifically for sarin gas — a nerve agent — and also ran regular bloodwork. The samples from the victims, who suffered from dizziness, vomiting and respiratory difficulties, have since been sent to the Turkish capital, Ankara, for further testing.

"The symptoms were consistent with those caused by a chemical, and the effects of this chemical were very serious and potentially fatal,” said Dr. Ubada Alabrash, who treated the victims at Reyhanli hospital. “But we couldn’t identify what the chemical was.''


 * Doctors in Reyhanli, in Turkey’s Hatay province, say they believe the Turkish government will keep the final results a secret due to the potential global political consequences of either negative or positive results.

Apparently the tests in Ankara went different. Except they aren't specifically cited - just peripheral clues the president thinks are adequate. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:00, 12 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Keeping the "final results a secret" equals to the Turkish government stating that it has the right to falsify and declare either negative or positive results depending on the desired global political consequences.
 * For any results to be factually meaningful, the investigative process must be open and not subject to the desires of global geopolitical players. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)


 * CNN, May 10: Patients from Syria being tested for chemical weapons
 * ''The Turkish government is treating around a dozen patients who have exhibited unusual symptoms suggesting they were exposed to a chemical weapons attack, a Turkish source said. "They were not injured by any kind of conventional arms. Tests showed excessive results which produced findings to let us make that statement," a Turkish source with access to Turkish government findings told CNN, on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the allegations. The Turkish source was referring to an announcement by Turkey's prime minister which accused the Syrian government of using chemical weapons. "It is clear the regime has used chemical weapons," said Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in an interview broadcast on NBC News Thursday night.

"There are patients who are brought to our hospitals who were wounded by these chemical weapons," Erdogan added, speaking through an interpreter. Erdogan said he wanted the US to "assume more responsibilities and take further steps" when it comes to Syria.''

Lab Tests for sarin exposure in Europe
Fabius reported that this was one of two incidents from which blood and urine samples had tested positive for sarin exposure in a French lab (http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/syria-295/events-5888/article/syria-chemical-weapons-statement). Some positive test results were confirmed at Porton Down but it's not clear if they relate to this specific incident (http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2013/06/french-sarin-detection-syria)

This incident may give clues to the method by which individuals with positive test results could have been generated for the 21 August incident. SANA has a bizarre story about people being made to inhale a white powder, then taken to hospital for tests. If they were given IMPA, this would give blood tests positive for IMPA-albumin adduct (the state-of-the-art test for sarin exposure), and urine tests positive for free IMPA, IMPA is easy to buy. nontoxic and the sodium salt would probably be a white powder. But difficult to get the dose right for inhaled/snorted powder: why not give it by mouth? ---Pmr9 (talk) 15:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I think this story is important because it links positive blood tests for sarin in a French government lab to an alleged incident where the story that the regime used chemical weapons doesn't stand up and is open to ridicule. The rebels claim that the agent was disseminated by plastic riot control canisters, but JaN is the only group known to have these canisters. The story about people being rounded up, coerced to inhale white powder from plastic bags, then having it thrown in in their faces before being dragged off for blood tests is so bizarre that even SANA is unlikely to have made it up. It's possible that this was a dose-finding study, where the rebels were asked to find some volunteers but failed to follow best practice for clinical research due to lack of training and supervision. ---Pmr9 (talk) 15:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL! ...were asked to find some volunteers but failed to follow best practice for clinical research due to lack of training and supervision. Yes, we always maintain a balanced, scientific tone in out comments here, but we do not need to be this balanced!
 * You have not provided a link to the SANA story. When did this happen? Was the SANA story published before the Ghouta incident? OK, found one reference:
 * FRANCE, BRITAIN CONFIRM USE OF SARIN GAS IN SYRIA – Greg Keller and Karin Laub, AP, June 4, 2013


 * ''On April 19, activists said the government bombed the northern town of Saraqeb with chemical agents that caused respiratory problems and other symptoms in people who were exposed to them. The state news agency claimed "terrorists" brought bags of an unknown white powder to Saraqeb and opened them. It said the terrorists — the regime's term for the rebels — then transported the injured to Turkish hospitals to "accuse the Syrian armed troops of using chemical weapons."
 * This story may turn out to be the smoking gun. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The SANA story (http://sana.sy/eng/21/2013/05/01/480240.htm) was published on 1 May, before there had been any reports that rebels or their foreign sponsors were trying to get blood samples from Syria to be tested for CW exposure in UK and French labs. The first report of any testing for CW exposure on samples from Syria that I can find is the French government announcement on 4 June, though the WSJ has since reported that Saudi agents brought a patient to the UK for testing last winter.  So the SANA story about people being taken for blood tests must have been based on an informant on the ground: they couldn't otherwise have known this was happening.   ---Pmr9 (talk) 10:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Not completely following yet, but don't worry, it's on my end. Sounds interesting. Will dive back into this soon. I did see a picture recently, from Brown Moses obviously, of the exact alleged powder in a pile on the ground in Saraqeb, white and chalky, possibly worth a look. Didn't save the link, but it's out there, FYI. Sorry, just felt I should say something in the way of encouragement. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Le Monde reporters brought samples from Jobar that were sent to the French defence lab at Bouchet. Apparently there was a samples-for-findings deal that allowed Le Monde – and no one else – to publish some information about the lab results, not only from Jobar but also from the 29 April Saraqeb incident. Another French newspaper that tried to explain the science of sarin testing to its readers was told by the defence ministry “The things you mention are not public and are not intended to be”. (http://sciencesetavenir.nouvelobs.com/decryptage/20130902.OBS5212/gaz-sarin-en-syrie-comment-s-effectuent-les-analyses.html)

Le Monde has some information about test results on the Saraqeb samples (http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/article/2013/06/04/laurent-fabius-confirme-l-utilisation-de-gaz-sarin-en-syrie_3424140_3218.html) although unlike the Jobar incident Le Monde reporters were not involved in bringing out the samples. “The samples taken after the attack by a government helicopter in Saraqeb on 29 April are even more convincing. The metabolite of sarin has been identified in the urine of one victim, and regenerated sarin (that is to say in a pure state) in the blood of two other victims, in one case at raised concentration (9.5 ng/ml).” The samples from Saraqeb were from five victims of whom one has died. They were taken by the care team of a hospital in the Idlib region and transmitted to French services on 4 May, before arriving at the laboratory on 9 May. According to experts, the blood samples are impossible to fake, unlike the urine samples which could possibly be manipulated.”

“Regenerated sarin” sounds like they mean the fluoride ion regeneration test which splits sarin from its binding site on the BChE enzyme. If so, 9.5 ng/ml would imply a massive and lethal dose: an estimated upper bound on the concentration obtainable by this method is 11 ng/ml when the binding sites are saturated (http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/1/116.full.pdf). The highest level obtained when the regeneration test was used on stored serum samples from Japanese victims was 4.1 ng/ml (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9299607). The regeneration test for sarin-BChE adduct isn't “impossible to fake”, but it would require access to a few microgrammes of sarin and lab facilities equivalent to a hospital pharmacy for preparing injections. ---Pmr9 (talk) 13:26, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Perry Robinson's review of the evidence up to 26 June
ALLEGED USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS IN SYRIA, Julian Perry Robinson, Univers ity of Sussex, 26 June 2013, http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/spru/hsp/occasional%20papers/HSPOP_4.pdf There's a lot of material here: he has reviewed all the alleged chemical weapons incidents up to 26 June, and has more details of the lab results. I'll read it over the weekend and add some interpretation. Perry Robinson is a respected expert in this area and has a healthy scepticism about intelligence and disinfo ops. His introductory paragraph recalls the "yellow rain" story: "It would be foolish to forget, at the present grim juncture in the Middle East, that a bare thirty years ago the huge intelligence apparatus of the United States Government mistook a natural phenomenon – mass defaecation flights of the Apis dorsata honeybee in southeast Asia -- for communist mycotoxin warfare". ---Pmr9 (talk) 10:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)