Talk:Airstrike on Lugansk RSA building

Lack of Backup
It's worth noting here that Kiev's ridiculous denial of this criminal air strike was actually seen as ridiculous, even among usual supporters in the Western media. Apparently their inversions of truth do have their limits, and this is probably the clearest example of those being finally exceeded.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * RFE/RL (but NOT Radio Svoboda) Despite Denials, All Evidence For Deadly Explosion Points To Kyiv
 * Despite the Ukrainian denials, the evidence from observers and journalists on the ground overwhelmingly points to a strike from a Ukrainian aircraft.
 * (compiles plenty of others saying the same)


 * CNN Investigation
 * The pattern of the craters clearly indicated some sort of strafing, according to a munitions expert at the scene with CNN. Their size suggested 30-millimeter ordnance, he said, which is standard equipment on the Su-25, a ground-attack fighter, and the Su-27 -- both combat aircraft operated by Ukraine.


 * Even the reporter from the "Daily Beast" refused to echo Kiev's line with a tweet blaming a Ukrainian SU-25.


 * Ukraine@War: Most troublingly, this insanely pro-junta blog tried hard to believe Kiev but eventiually had to invent an alternate story on their behalf. First, author P. Martin decided local rebels blasted themselves with an RPG fired from a tree, and the jet was only framed. Soon he learned he'd done it all wrong and the site evidence was pretty clear, so he re-mapped it to be consistent with the better analyses around, concluding in the revision "it seems the jet DID fire into the park!!!!" He explained there "I am not a propagandist" and promised to "be a little bit more careful," but also admits "it is hard for me to believe that the Ukrainian army really did this." Next, he posted that Ukraine needs to come with a really good explanation to help him out. "I think Ukraine needs to give a REAL GOOD and HONEST explanation," which they hadn't yet, and still haven't. They may have said, since then, that their jet did this by accident. But while waiting, Martin came up with his own theory - it wasn't even their jet. Did a Russian Jet fire into the city of Lugansk on 2-6? "Since it seems so far-fetched" that the evidence lines up in a straightforward manner, he proposes, as usual, that maybe Russia did it. He cites stolen friend or foe systems, and the app. June 1 radar installation incident (see below) as possible support; after all, as he heard it, that was "attacked by seapartist Migs and destroyed," so it was their fault that "the entire air-defense-system was down around Lugansk after 1-6!!! Think about it!"

Kiev Admits It?
In an interview on August 19 in front of the building a militia man says that Kiev eventually admitted that they did it, allegedly mistakenly and "missing the target".
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqxY3CM6zs
 * I didn't think they would. And the guy says "then they said we," with we to me sounding like the same blamed we, the federalists. But it wasn't a then, just part of the story all along, I think. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "... then they said ok ok we just missed the target and that's why it happened. I mean this doesn't explain anything, it doesn't make them not guilty ..." There's no question that he's talking about "we" as in "that's what they said about themselves". --CE (talk) 23:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I was rushed earlier and a closer listen makes it more clear. He says they admitted it. I'd like to see when where and how they did for myself, and add it here. Searched a bit, but so far nothing popped up. Along the way, found a bit for the above section on how few people ever had Kiev's back on this one. Space below for any admission it was their "error" that turns up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

On a second look, still no acknowledgment. I did find this interesting story I thought might be it, but not quite. Matthew Russell Lee (Inner City Press) pressed the issue with Ukraine's UN ambassador Sergeyev. First on June 2, he denied it was an air strike. Asked again on June 4 backed by the just-published OSCE findings that it was a jet strike, Sergeyev "acknowledge that the OSCE said it was a rocket from an aircraft," Lee says, but maybe he just admitted the website did? Then he suggested - it sounds to me - like they didn't say that, and someone else (Russians!) had hacked into the website to add that. In a little more detail, Lee writes that on the 4th:
 * Sergeyev cited the Special Prosecutor in Kyiv still saying the deaths were caused by MANPAD anti-aircraft missiles used by separatists; he said that the OSCE website got blocked or changed.

Indeed, the site was down just then, as if recovering from a hack. But as Lee summarized this on the 6th, it was back up, saying what it always did. What knocked the site out for a bit right then might be interesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe the NSA trying to hit China again? ;o) I also didn't find anything conclusive. This RT piece makes it seem like they admitted it a day later, but when you read closely, it doesn't say that. Admitted is only that they used 150 missiles in their attack on Lugansk to "support the border guards". And another day later, they were still denying, while even Radio Freedumb was sure that they were guilty. Forgot how obvious that was. --CE (talk) 11:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Radar station?

 * Украинская армия нанесла авиаудар по своим офицерам в Луганске (Ukrainian army inflicted airstrike against their officers in Lugansk) – Life News, June 2, 2014


 * ''About 22:30 Moscow time Ukraine aviation again struck Lugansk. This time they shot radar communication system that was used for the detection of aircraft in the air. It was located on the territory of a military unit near the village Alexandrovka.
 * ''Just before the strike conscripts had laid down their arms and left the territory of the radar station, but officers stayed. As reported from the scene by Life News correspondent, Ukrainian military did not understand each other, thinking that the radar station was now occupied by the militias, an as a result shot at their own soldiers.
 * ''According to preliminary data, radar communication system serving about 10 people. As a result of air strikes they all died.


 * Fascinating twist, whoever. I have a bit on this from the pro-Kiev side, somewhere ... will see if I can dig it up eventually and put it here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, it was right in the stuff I was digging up: Did a Russian Jet fire into the city of Lugansk on 2-6?
 * This article gives a summary of events on June 1st. It says a radar had been destroyed on an outpost but does not say where.


 * Inforesist also mentions this incident, but puts it on the 31st of May. (It may have happened in the night from May 31st to June 1st?).


 * Here is a video of the aftermath of this incident. Published on June 3


 * Here is another video of the aftermath. Published on June 3


 * This is what seems to have happened: Insurgents had long negotiations with 5 soldiers. The soldiers destroyed all equipment in the bunker and burned critical documents. After that 2 MIG-29s made an airstrike on the most powerful radars, rendering it useless.


 * ...In other words: the entire air-defense-system was down around Lugansk after 1-6!!! Think about it!

--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)