Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Victims

Head Wounds

 * moved from Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017

Fainting is reported, and some people will bonk their heads on something when that happens. Charles mentioned this first I think, but I agree there are too many and too severe wounds on the heads (and maybe necks) of these children.

Suggested pattern: children are killed by blows to the head, while fighting age males (13 and up) have their throats sliced. Strange reluctance of Islamists to go ahead and use CWs when they're alleging it, or failure to do it right, requiring some finishing work. All things we've seen before. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:50, 4 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Taken to the Monitor already

That bright red blood of two of the kids essentially proves that those kids did not die from sarin. Looks like the little girl was still bleeding when they laid her down on the stone-pavement. Looks like the boy at the top had his L ear to the pavement first, blood ran from his nose, and then he turned his head and the blood ran the other way. The odd way his neck is wrapped is suspicious.

Also, that may be a syringe lying across the seam at the top of the image. I’ve tried to enhance it, but it doesn’t help much. Can't figure out how to add images to this comment.

The face of the child second from the top is weird. Noseless. Bruise under R eye. Not sure where shadow stops and skin begins, but magnifying the face makes it even more weird. The cast shadow from the head doesn't seem to match the head. Pierpont (talk) 18:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * That seems to be a syringe, FWIW. Before going further, here's the graphic I made numbering them in a roated view, matched to the other video.

Using those numbers, I doubt the top kid #5 has a neck injury as well, but it is tightly covered. #4 has a nose, it's just washed out above. There must be an invisible curl of hair to explain the shadow. Don't know if it's a bruise per se, but dark hollows under the eyes. As for the older boy #3, his neck wound might seem debatable, especially when it doesn't appear in the match image. But I propose it doesn't run across, just on the left side (our right), and it's invisible with his chin tucked into his shoulder like that. But confirmation is there: enhancement clarifies the blue blanket under his neck isn't blue like it is between the other boys, but red-brown with lots of spilled blood. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

The other likely hacked skulls we see are with what we were taking as possible chlorine victims: Khan Shaikhoun victims via SAMS.jpg. But I've noticed the girl and the woman only have blood from the nose, and not from the mouth. Damaged airways connect to both of those. What connects just to the nose? The inside of the skull. These two are like the boy at the top of the starter image. The girl seems to have purple lips (cyanoisis) and maybe white foam from the mouth (specifically LACKING blood if so). The toddler in pink in the back seat (alt view) has white foam from the nose, no trace of blood. I deduce these are all said to die in the same spot from the same poison. The spot is Abdelhamid al-Yousef's home. With the file Khan Shaikhoun victims via SAMS 2 labeled.jpg, I explain how we can see his alleged son in this different view, then recognize the girl in pink as probably his sister, the woman as their mother, and the pother four kids (3 girls aged 6-0 and a boy age 3) would be Amira/Abeer Sale's kids, who were taken over the AY's place before the sarin release, and died there. We see some cyanosis, some foam, no SLUDGE syndrome otherwise, possible skull hacking on 2 victims, and some other oddities. Not the best case for sarin here being credited by the smart folks at SAMS. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:40, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Killed in Rebel Care?
Among the five children shown above, at least one - the girl with the forehead wound - was apparently first seen in opposition-White Helmets care without that injury. Another boy seen with facial wounds was seen along with the girl without those marks. This isn't 100% certain, but pretty darn close. It's the kind of careful correlation that breaks cases, and twitter researcher Qoppa999 made the matches. I tried to explain them here: two smoking gun head wounds. As usual, I had to contest something: Qoppa's further match of the boy with the marred face to the nosebleed boy with the head wound in that original photo. I disagree, and take this as 3 damaged kids, only 2 of them first seen undamaged. Another is strongly suggested along the way. The two under study are reasonably identified as Hind and Abdulrahman Imadeddin Al-Qadah. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:58, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Neck Wound
In the graphic above a possible neck wound rather than head wound is noted, and interestingly on the oldest boy who might class as an adult. This got a little complicated, but the complication is now resolved; the wound is to the back of his neck and never seen, but bleeding freely in videos around 7-8 am, and bandaged to fully stop blood flow prior to 10:40 am. Now it seems we have the White Helmets helping conceal this bloody injury as the kind of thing you conceal, and failing in the end. These frames and this enhanced photo crop show the final keys in that - the blog post explains the rest. (anyone with a better quality version of the source photo for the bandage graphic?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:30, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, barely seen, but a sharp edge, could be --Resup talk) 19:31, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Early footage - we can see where was laid on his back, where he was moved left, then further left, where a WH guy wants fabric strips near the kid's neck... then 25 seconds later (in the video, with edits, so...) he's loaded in a van and rushed off with that work still not done.
 * maybe you should link that video you describe --Resup (talk) 19:31, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It's in the linked article, but for a shortcut, it's here. About 1:20. At the end, we may see the area (enhanced view added at bottom of my blog post). Not as bloody or slice-looking as I'd expect for a fatal wound, but possibly. It does look like a red something. Clearly, in three places, it is bleeding, and not from the front or either side. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:21, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

A couple of hours later: were they trying to make this bandage work invisible? Why?

Bodies of the Child Victims

 * moved from: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017

Notice there are no videos of Khan Sheikhoun locals claiming/grieving over the bodies of the children displayed by the White Helmets. Where were these children really from and who killed them? --Withnail (talk) 12:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * A good observation! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Haven't noticed any yet, and if there are any such scenes, they might well be fake. And welcome, Withnail! --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Telegraph sourced report has story on father with twin sons and extended family - total 22 dead. Abdulhamid al-Youssef is claimed to have lost his children and wife. There is other video available at a cemetery that appears to be the same guy.

First of all I doubt 19 people died. Exaggeration is the norm in Syria. I am also mildly suspicious that any of his family died. At best what we see is the man with two dead infants, one with an obvious head injury. There is no indication he is actually the father. --Charles Wood (talk) 06:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Is this the "father" kissing Recep Tayyip while his White Helmets buddy stands nearby? Not a bad match, I think. --CE (talk) 15:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, for example this ... I can't get the video to play now, so I'm flying blind but if the story is surviving dad who was off somewhere, whose family was left behind and killed, and he gets the bodies to bury no problem, and is fine being on camera ... My gut feeling is: they aren't his kids, but kidnap massacre victims getting laundered in the media. Surviving fathers seem like this from the Houla Massacre forward. Often one baby of the family survives along with him, and he just spews rebel talking points as he confirms their BS story.


 * So I'd guess none of HIS family died, but exactly 22 of some kidnapped family did die. Or 23, with dad not listed, to make room for this impostor. Yousef might be their real name, but likely not, and might be his name or not (more likely his, or maybe no one's... you can only speculate so far). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The violations centre list 50 odd named casualties - all of course from poison gas. No-one got blown up in those massive blasts. Various flavours of al-Youssef are listed as dead. Perhaps the majority? I think it's a local tribal name? Abdulhamid started off with 19 dead relatives at the hospital. By the time he got to the cemetery it was 23. They must be dying like flies! --Charles Wood (talk) 13:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

In a post on SST, TTG (a former special forces officer) notes that A cursory review of videos and photos show unprotected “rescue workers” handling contaminated bodies with impunity, a dead child with a number on her forehead opening her eyes, an elderly man sitting on the ground having his keffiyah pulled off his head by what appears to be a film director. Can we confirm these last two findings? Pmr9 (talk) 14:58, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, all this is in the photo and video record. I do not buy the argument that White Helmets would be dead for handling victims with bare hands. 1) In a war situation people need to take risks. 2) The victims were hosed off. 3) If there was sarin, most of it would have evaporated by then. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Charles: the scarf-snatching is in one of the most-seen videos - I didn't sense any significance - someone borrowing it? He waves it off like "hey, keep it." There's a girl with 21 written in blue (E. Arabic, looks like 17 backwards) who didn't seem dead - forget where - not even sure this means anything - no ohter numbers seen - and sometimes I think both sides use number for dead or uncommunicative people - people who recovered sometimes have smudged numbers washed off - links for none of it, sorry. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * And I'm glad Petri questioned the weaknesses of the sarin impunity point. I agree totally with what he said. Secondary exposure with time passed for absorption or evaporation, and hosing off, chances of serious exposure are minimal, and people might take minimal risks in Syria these days. I suppose it's a point to raise, and might matter in a narrowed-down sense, but it's not the big smoking gun everyone acts like. IMO. And of course I still doubt there was sarin, just this isn't the right proof. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Victim parade
I have now traced the path of the child victims from the White Helmets murder compound to the Maarrat al-Nu'man hospital. They change hearses and diapers five times on the way. I do not know if they are dead or not. Neither does anyone else. Here is a playlist. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:35, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

BBC link victims to houses

 * ''Moved to Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017/Location

Opposition Records
(incomplete)
 * VDC's list of 4-4 chemical deaths - was 69, then 92, at one point 95 including 3 later deaths (listed at least as days after), but now down to 87 on the big list and 2 later dead. 89 total. I don't think I saved the full list as it was, and might not be able to say who was dropped. Likely, some were acknowledged as shelling deaths, not chemical ones. Would find out with some cross-checking... Anyway, this is a handy link to have here. Other handy things could go in this section. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Syrians for Truth and Justice Report
A Special Report on the Chemical Attack in Khan Sheikhoun - Idlib PDF report, English Justice for Life Observatory in Deir Ezzor (never heard of them before) - publish date unclear. Besides some other interesting additions, this claims the death toll is exactly the highest one reported (as I suspect is true). - 103. "As a member of the Civil Defense, Anas stated that 87 casualties had been documented. City activists documented 93. The local council documented 103 victims. That makes sense because it's possible for them I'm sure, and that third digit is very important. You don't want 99 or 100, but "over 100," and probably just barely, because of the cost and diminishing returns. The report seems to agree, while missing one victim in their list of 102 identified victims, but this lets us see at least 4 victims double-listed: 1-4 same as 65-68, Saleh kids - re-listed with KS origin, first without So maximum = 99 listed. Most have full names, areas from, and even mother's name. This will help, with some tedious analysis, to establish whether or not all the victims were related by blood or marriage to a central target family (Al-Yousef). It seems possible, as connections I didn't know about emerged just on a quick scan. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:43, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Notes on the report
The date of the PDF is 22 April 2017. An unusual s-t ligature is used with the fonts, and embedded fonts include Microsoft Uighur. Syrians for Truth and Justice appears to have gone live in late 2016. No information about where its funding comes from, apart from $2070 raised by crowdfunding in December 2016. Facebook page says based in Istanbul.

Justice for Life Observatory website was registered in Germany in January 2017, but claims to be based in Deir Ezzor province. No information about funding. It claims improbably to have paid for 100 humanitarian airdrops in Deir Ezzor - in reality these airdrops were paid for by the UN World Food Programme, and carried out by a private Russian airline (Abakan Air).

Apart from the identification of victims, there are other items of interest in the report are close up photos of victims. Two of the children appear to have "raccoon eyes" indicating bleeding in the extradural space caused by basal skull fracture. Two images show "foaming at the mouth" which appears to be something like toothpaste.

It is stated that the jet made two passes over the town (inconsistent with the Pentagon's flight track) and that rockets rather than gravity bombs were released. The first strike is alleged to have delivered the gas munition at the crater, and the second strike to have caused the three explosive plumes and the cloud of white fog that CL has geolocated to just north of the tel. This cloud is labelled "Missile E: landed in a farm land" which is clearly incorrect. The fog source southwest of town is not shown. Pmr9 (talk) 11:43, 2 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Great backgrounder! I noticed the weird font. An Uighur-speaker seems to have worked on it? And they're based where in Deir Ezzour that's not ISIS-held? Maybe it's just the home-province of an expat running it in Turkey?


 * Agreed on most points. Rockets/missiles might just be a translation issue. But they also say they seem to thermobaric weapons, if weaker than usual. I agree with that. Their "missile E" is silly. I guess they think it could be way way out there. But "farmlands" could refer to where the un-mentioned "missile F" might have landed, SW of town. Milk nose man is shown, he's silly. The girl's foam seems thicker - like baking soda paste that dried too quick? There are bubbles. This seems to be Abdelhamid Al-Yousef's alleged daughter Aya, FWIW.


 * But disagreed on racoon eyes. If we mean the Khalid family members shown, I just see the standard dark rings, as if very tired or whatever... it has dozens of causes. Periorbital echymosis (from what I've seen googling for images) is darker, tending to fill the whole eye socket with blood evenly, with sharp edges. Alaa might have sunken eyes (hence shadow?), besides missing front teeth and pale lips. At least 2 of those are signs of malnutrition/scurvy (right?). That's a maybe. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:42, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

SNHR Report
The report contains 91 names of those killed - 32 reported as displaced from many places, including 2 from Khattab, many from Marzaf and Morek. The usual maps and various details as reported by 12 witnesses, including aircraft monitor Mahmoud Al-Hasna and various activists we've heard from. Select extracts:
 * Russian Forces Have, most likely, Supported the Syrian Regime Forces in Khan Sheikhoun Chemical Attack “We were Gasping for Air” Syrian Network for Human Rights, May 29, 2017. PDF link
 * Around 06:49, fixed-wing Su-22 Syrian regime forces warplanes fire four missiles, where one of the missiles was loaded with a poison gas which was evidently a nerve agent. The missile fell in al Shamali neighborhood in Khan Sheikhoun city on the main road in front of the siloses and less than 100 meters in front of Khan Sheikhoun Automatic Bakery, while the three other missiles fell in different locations in the vicinity of the neighborhood.


 * One of the two warplanes had the symbol “Quds-1” written over it, while the other reads “Quds-6”. ... he monitored  the  warplane  with  the  symbol Quds-6 taking off at a similar time before in late-March and targeting a hospital in Hama suburbs with poison gases at that time

(see also: [Monitor Mahmoud Unravels the Quds1 Sarin-Chlorine Serial Murder Plot])


 * “I suspected that the warplanes was carrying poison gases, because it took off at an early time when the weather is calm and suitable for bombing poison gases..."

(see also: [same as above])


 * The symptoms  the  injured  exhibited,  which  checked  out  with  the  accounts  acquired  by SNHR from the doctors and paramedics we spoke to, suggest that the symptoms are consistent with those caused by a nerve agent.

Huh, that's helpful. Some more specific word salad follows: pupils, foam, etc.


 * “The wind sent the gases away from our house, which reduced the concentration of the gases in our house area..."

(see also: [OPCW's No Wind Theory]) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Injured journalists
Syrian Center for Media and freedom of speech names 5 injured journalists in their report: --Q (talk) 20:34, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Abdul Qader Bakri correspondent for Qasioun News Agency
 * Qasioun also reported it.
 * Mohamed Hassan al-Daghim(facebook), correspondent for Halab Today
 * Halab Today's report
 * Abdo Qantar, correspondent for Anadolu Agency and Zaman al-Wasl
 * Anadolu's report
 * Hassan Kayali, correspondent for Edlib Media Center
 * Anas Diab, works for Aleppo Media Center and the White Helmets, if I understand the machine translations correctly

Al-Yousef Family

 * moved from: Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack Khan Sheikhoun 4 April 2017

The largest number of victims from a single family, given variously as 13, 19, 22, 25, and 28 is an al-Yousef family, with a few households-worth killed, besides several alleged survivors to speak for the rest. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdel Hameed Alyousef

 * Telegraph sourced wire story naming or identifying 19 victims of the family of Abdulhamid al-Youssef.

The Daily Mail I think it was provided a photo of the twins (just the twins) prior to death, but strangely nobody seems able to find a photo of proud father Abdulhamid al-Youssef with said twins, alive. Withnail (talk) 18:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Two stills of him close-up with the twins are shown in the CBS interview linked below. It's not implausible that, if the twins had been separated from their parents for a week or so, they would have become familiar enough with their captors for photos like this to be taken. What we haven't seen so far are any photos showing him with the rest of the family: just these two twins who may have been selected to develop the story. Pmr9 (talk) 07:32, 18 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I was going to suggest, more softly, that he might be some "social worker" who "managed" this family - maybe they were local Shia who agreed to convert, and he was sent to counsel them. Or they were just captives, and he was the friendly one that could make the babies smile. Other possibilities exist, besides the one he gives.


 * The one photo suggests real family intimacy, but suggestions are just that. The other is credited Alaa al-Yousef, apparently their mother and his alleged wife, but he's taking it as a selfie. Still no photos of her, or him and her, with or without the kids. That would be more telling. And, of course, there's no resemblance between the kids and him, for what it's worth. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Other photos are Alaa Alyousef via AP, so it was provided to him/her (It's a gender-neutral name, I think). Presumably no relation... Dalal is his alleged wife's name. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Here are some western sources publishing the story of Abdel Hameed Alyousef and his 22 killed family members. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC) - updated 02:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack - Huffington Post
 * Syrian father in agony as 9-month-old twins die in gas attack - Fox News
 * Heart-breaking footage of father who lost twins, wife and 20 relatives in chemical attack - Metro.co.uk
 * Father Mourns at Grave of Baby Twins Killed in Suspected Gas Attack - NBC News
 * 'The dead were wherever you looked': inside Syrian town after gas attack - Kareem Shaheen in Khan Sheikhun, The Guardian, April 6, 2017
 * ''Abdulhamid al-Yousef, one of the few survivors in the family, was receiving condolences at his home in Khan Sheikhun, a day after burying his wife and nine-month-old twins, Ahmed and Aya, fighting back tears.
 * ''Yousef had rushed to help the other victims of the attack. He came back instead to find that much of his family had perished, including siblings, nephews and nieces. His wife and children had rushed down to the bomb shelter in their basement, only for the toxic gas to seep into it, which killed them all.
 * Erdogan meets Syrian who lost twin babies in chemical attack - TRT WORLD, April 7, 2017

'Father' of the dead twins appears to be a White Helmets member Withnail (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If that's based on the guy at lower right being the same guy, I disagree. They have some similarities but are different guys, IMO. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdel Hameed Alyousef is exposed here as a fake: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * SYRIA SARIN GAS ATTACK: CRISIS ACTORS EXPOSED - Stranger Than Fiction News, April 15, 2017
 * This is interesting. I suspected the earlier video was not 'scrubbed" like they say. But after some pretty serious digging, I couldn't find a copy. Here are some stills from this analysis then, showing him being interviewed in his favorite jacket, after wearing it after the attack, with no sign of being washed off or anything. This is despite being deep in the gas, as he claims, with everyone around him dropping dead. Full early account might be nice to have, if possible. Later he describes no smell or clue of a chemical other than people dropping. That conflicts with what most say. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Video found: Zaman al-Wasl - he starts talking 1:05. Not the same exact video - that had his name in English on the upper left side, while here it's in Arabic on the bottom right. Translation request in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)


 * More videos:
 * CBS news interview - Important: he's seen in photos with the babies. Worth consideration.
 * sips water, seems drained, crying as he speaks, (in an interview via headphones?)
 * same
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Jf2ERDKwE
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_TYgl4z8g
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPVbVdQ8qo
 * sleepy, IV in hand
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAyY7NBpw28
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA7tsaqs4Wk



Proof man?
Another thing about this guy: he went to Turkey and met Erdogan. Just for being famous? Or to get tested for sarin? He's a talker. He's seen sipping water, which reminds me of how I suspect faker-talkers would go about getting positive sarin results, safely (weak dilution in water, sipped slowly, with long pauses between sips). Just a line of thought ... he's well-placed to be the proof guy on all levels. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorts out some of his appearances and the basic timeline, raising questions about his story, of the attack and being the father of this family. Along the way, clues are teased out to predict his positive sarin results, and give an advance guess on how that was achieved. Unusually, he's likely not the dad, yet worked into photos of the kids as if he were. He claims sarin, was in Turkey kissing Erdogan, and he probably tested positive there. So here's the case he's the (fake) 'proof man' for this case and so he's well-worth debunking. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Abdelhamid al-Yousef: The Proof Man?
 * Are we sure the twins are actually dead? There seem to be far too many zombified maybe not dead victims. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Ahmed seems to have livor mortis (redness) as if he was left face-down for a while after death. I think. The girl looks pale, likely laid face-up and showing palor mortis. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The test for sarin used by the OPCW labs in previous reports (fluoride ion regeneration test) is for an adduct (sarin-BChE) that has a half-life of 11 days (if it's the same as that of BChE itself) so there wouldn't be any need for him to keep sipping anything after arrival in Turkey - the dose could have been administered a week earlier. On the other hand Üzümcü stated that the tests where positive for "sarin or a sarin-like substance", which doesn't make any sense if it's the fluoride ion regeneration test, which is positive only for sarin itself. Pmr9 (talk) 12:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I suspected he only started a bit before or after the reported attack, like the night before, maybe wanted to cram in a fair amount, kept it up until whenever (this is all "if"). He's weak and sweaty for at least 2-3 days, maybe recovering as he meets Erdogan. That's not really consistent with a sudden exposure.


 * As for Uzumcu statements - it implies they didn't even use the state-of-the-art test? It could be DIMP powder, etc. and they wouldn't know? That would be bad. Maybe they're being vague on purpose, to create speculation they'll defuse with the fluoride ion regeneration test results from Mr. Yousef. and maybe show that's what they used, and he just mis-spoke (mis-implied). Don't know. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Opposition Fighter?
Story on his Facebook page Father of Invention: Media Portrayed Grief Stricken Dad Turns Out To Be al-Nusra Front Terrorist --Charles Wood (talk) 10:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Huh, was supposed to look at that already. He never mentioned he was an Islamist fighter. He still might claim he was mainly friends with them and posed with their guns, and only joined a little bit. The photos would fit that, actually. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * side-note: It does say "Mohammad al-Yusef, the brother of Abdel Hamid al-Yusef. (He is supposedly now deceased due to the April 4th chemical event according to the list above)," but there are 2 Mohameds listed, both young boys. I hear Abdelkareem is his brother, so Yaser must be the other (he says 2 died, I believe), and their father is named Ahmed, and said to die so I guess he's #19.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Khalid al-Yusuf

 * Buzzfeed has a Khalid al-Yusuf, 23 years old, living in Turkey, who says he lost 22 relatives.Withnail (talk) 06:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Mazin Yusif

 * Mazin Yusif, 13, was very sad to lose exactly 19 family members, shown frowning in a Turkish hospital. He heard the attack around 6 am, ran to the roof, he says, and saw that his grandfathers house was hit. Ran there barefoot, saw grandpa slumped over, the felt dizzy and woke up in Turkey. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

How did Mazin Yusuf 'see that his grandfather's house was hit'? Withnail (talk) 09:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I forgot the link, and in fact it's from 2 pieces: (cited: CNN, another citing an earlier CNN edit?) “At six thirty in the morning, the plane struck. I ran up on our roof and saw that the strike was in front of my grandfather’s house,” he told CNN at the hospital." Between them, he showed journalists from room to room "like a regular," introduced his surviving grandmother, 55-year-old Aisha Al-Tilawi, and both spoke matter of factly, citing the time and everything. Grandma was luckier: "Aisha al-Tilawi, 55, says she lost three members of her family in Tuesday’s attack." (19 Yousefs + 3 Tilawis = 22 total?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:38, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

So this story has a lot of sponsors. It's the kind of story they gather sponsors for, one they want to work. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdul Hameed Yousef
A different, older "Abdul Hameed Yousef says 28 members of his extended family died" to a CBC reporter, in this video filmed in Turkey. His son, aged 23, survived and is here, apparently with his pregnant wife. He describes "a strange smell," people vomited, foamed at the mouth, fainted. A cola-dipped rag over his nose kept him safe. --Caustic Logic


 * Who is that sitting next to the son at 00:36? --Charles Wood (talk) 13:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * No one I recognize - looks like a Turkish dont-mind-me MIT minder? --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Abdelqader Al-Yousef

 * Zaman al-Wasl video, after Abdelhamid, shows another man of the same family name (1:41). The article is attached in the description, in Arabic. Google translate gives "Like Abdelhamid, his 28-year-old cousin, Abdelkader, collapsed during his funeral (ed: during the attack) but soon recovered. "I saw the symptoms of nervous breakdown, trembling and falling on the ground and then the foam coming out of the mouth," he said as he stood in front of a building targeted by the bombing."
 * AFP gives his full name: Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef --Q (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Mohammad Nejdat Yousuf
Kingsley and Barnard, NYT Gulf News A farmer, he "hurried to rescue the initial victims of the attack, the residents of a one-story home," but "ran headlong into what he described as “a winter fog — not quite yellow and not quite white.” He started to lose his balance, he said. His eyes began to sting. His nose started to stream. Finally, Yousuf said, he started to foam at the mouth." "when the toxic cloud that had sickened him was blown downwind toward his farm outside the village, his pregnant wife, 20, and a nephew, 9, had a far more serious reaction and were evacuated by ambulance to a hospital in Turkey, said Mr. Youssef, who accompanied them."

Yousef al-Yousef
Yousef al-Yousef, a boy about 13, says he lost his father and everyone else in the attack. He's fine now, but orphaned and alone, and of course talking to media in Turkey. Not sure if he's supposed to smile or not, it comes and goes with suspicious ease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYh1Sbb6Us --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * NoTerroristWeapons on Twitter gives paraphrase Currently,my family in turkey in critical condition, only me here. Then: god rests their souls. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Another video with the kid, in arabic, starts at 01:29 --Q (talk) 12:13, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Axel Springer Akademie Podcast

 * Could someone translate to English / transcribe the video and podcasts about Yousef?

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/video171237083/Yusuffs-vergiftete-Kindheit.html http://www.alyom.de/about Andrew1 (talk) 10:38, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi Andrew1, thanks for bringing this to our attention. It is a project of the journalist school of Axel Springer Verlag, a large German media company best known for the largest tabloid in Europe, BILD, and the on the surface more "serious" WELT newspaper you linked to. From the FAQ, Question "How did we get contact to our protagonist?": One of the 16 students in the project is 28 years-old Mohammad Rabie from Syria who came to Germany in 2015. Through "his network" they found the Youseffs and the "independent journalist" Moazz Alshami, who is "a respected reporter" in Syria and was vetted by Springer to not have been involved in any fightings or acts of war. He "supports all Sunni rebel group except ISIS". Through him they got to Skype and chat and facebook with people in Khan Sheikhoun. And they personally visited family members who are now in Germany and Sweden. It will be a seven part podcast, released part by part until December 18. I don't think I will be able to stand more than a few seconds, but I'll keep my eyes open for any upcoming translations. --CE (talk) 15:13, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Turki and Uncle Feefat Al-Yousef
http://apexnews.simplesite.com/ A 22 year old former architecture student from Syria Mr. Turki Alyousef, now living in Wiesbaden, Germany... 24 femily members killed. "his uncle Mr. Feefat Alyousef who was at the scene of the attack narrating the incident to him" is reported as saying things including "the explosion sent a yellow mushroom cloud into the air like a winter fog." ... "his 15 children all died on their beds after inhaling the toxic gas as well as the rest of his dead family members."
 * Note: I've never heard the name "Feefat" that I recall. Might be a bad translation or something, perhaps from Rifat. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:27, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Alaa al-Yousef
While Abdul Hamid is the face of the family, this guy seems to be the one who is organizing all the interviews and other media appearances. He is credited for most of the early photos and videos of the al-Yousef family, including the famous photo of Abdul Hamid and his twins. He also escorted Abdul Hamid to Turkey, and met with Erdogan. He and Aya Fadl, his wife (family photo), talk about what happened in several articles, this one is probably the most detailed among them. Interesting, that "wind went in the other direction" according to Alaa, but his wife somehow still ended up in the hospital. --Q (talk) 12:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Articles:
 * Chemical attack kills 22 members of a single family in Syria
 * 'Assad is trying to kill everyone that survived the chemical attack,' says resident of Syrian town being bombed once again
 * Abdel Hameed Alyousef, Syrian Father, Bids Farewell To Twins Killed In Attack
 * Syria gas attack: Sobbing father cradles his dead twins after 19 family members die in Idlib sarin poisoning - what he says here contradicts Abdul Hamid's own statements


 * Video appearances:
 * Syria: New Evidence Shows Pattern of Chemical Weapons Use
 * Syria: Chemical attack survivors vow for justice
 * Idlib Survivor Questions U.S. Missile Strikes, Syrian Military Condemns Them | NBC News

Family relations
Seeing so many Yousefs was getting confusing, so I made some rough family trees, based on VDC's data, the new HRW report, and some available interviews. --Q (talk) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)




 * Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(M) ALIVE - Fatima Elwan(F) ALIVE
 * Yaser Ahmad al-Yousef(40[HRW]-44[VDC]M) DEAD - Sanae Haj Ali(40F) DEAD
 * Ammar Yaser al-Yousef(7M) DEAD
 * Mohammad Yaser al-Yousef(10M) DEAD
 * Abdul Karim Ahmad al-Yousef(30M) DEAD - Unnamed wife DEAD
 * Abdul Hamid Ahmad al-Yousef(28M) ALIVE - Dalal Ahmad al-Sah(?F) DEAD
 * Ahmad Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1M) DEAD
 * Aya Abdul Hamid al-Yousef(1F) DEAD
 * Mohammad Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE
 * Khaled Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ALIVE
 * Female Sibling(F) ??? Probably ALIVE - Ibrahim ___ al-Jawhar(M) ???
 * Shaimaa Ibrahim al-Jawhar(16F) DEAD
 * Abdul Latif Ahmad al-Yousef(?M) ??? - unknown wife ???
 * Fatima Abdul Latif al-Yousef(?F) ALIVE
 * Unknown sibling(probably female) - Unknown sibling of Sanae Haj Ali
 * Aya Fadl ___ (25F) ALIVE - Alaa al-Yousef(27M) ALIVE - Alaa is the cousin of Abdul Hamid al-Yousef
 * Najdat Alaa al-Yousef (1-2M) ALIVE
 * Ahmad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Hindia al-Yousef(F) ???
 * Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef(55M) DEAD - Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD
 * Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD
 * Hassan ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rasha al-Hamwii(F) ???
 * Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(11M) DEAD - Perhaps the son of Hassan Mohamad al-Yousef?
 * Mohammad Hassan ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Aisha al-Tillawi(55F) ALIVE
 * (Unknown father)
 * Mazin ___ al-Yousef(13M) ALIVE - Grandchild of Aisha al-Tillawi
 * Hassan Mohammad al-Yousef(40M) DEAD
 * Ibrahim Mohammad Hassan al-Yousef(37M) DEAD
 * Turky ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Motiea al-Rayes(F) ???
 * Malak Turky al-Yousef(50F) DEAD - Nihad Ahmad al-Yousef DEAD
 * Nour Nihad al-Yousef(24F) DEAD
 * Hind Turky al-Yousef(58[VDC]-69[HRW]F) DEAD - Married to the El-Qedh family
 * Ibrahim ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Sara Jawesh(F) ???
 * Ahmad Ibrahim al-Yousef(33M) DEAD
 * Suheil ____ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Rajab(F) ???
 * Rahaf Suheil al-Yousef(17M) DEAD
 * Jihad ___ al-Yousef(M) ??? - Rawda al-Yousef(F) ???
 * Molham Jihad al-Yousef(33M) DEAD
 * Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef(55F) DEAD - Najeeb Khairo al-Jawhar(62M) DEAD
 * Hala Najeeb al-Jawhar ??? - Mohammad ___ al-Mere'e ???
 * Mayar Mohammad al-Mere'e(5M) DEAD
 * Mohammad Najeeb al-Jawhar(?M) ALIVE - interview
 * Abdulqader Abdulrahman al-Yousef(28M) ALIVE


 * Only listed in the HRW report
 * Omran Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD
 * Ahmad Suheil al-Yousef(?M) DEAD


 * Have you got Alaa al-Yousef (27M) cousin of Abdel Hameed, appears in the HRW video (buildings marked on screen might be useful, same house pointed out by Abo Rabeeea for AH is marked) AP, Alaa's father(?) and Aya Fadl (25F) (photo) + her son(20 months) and husband(?)? All survived, Aya is the niece of Yaser and Sanae. --Andrew1 (talk) 14:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks. There's what seemed an AP reporter and photographer name Alaa al-Yousef heavily involved in reporting this case, with credit for most family photos, etc. - but then (Clarity of Signal, I think) pieces together that he's almost more a promoter who's presumably unrealted (I think), and here, what seems like the same guy is also a personal relative and survivor who held the dead? Says his home was "really close" to the crater he points to, unspecified which way. He shows all the mapped something, took a screen grab to compare. He has a sister's house dead bodies were brought to. This is shady. But he needs added to the list here, and probably a section above, that could stand to be big. Does anyone have his middle name? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Alaa provided this photo of dead family members at the al-Youssef house to the Danish newspaper Politiken. He says he is a member of the family. I suppose Alaa is Alaa Alyousef the promoter. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks Andrew, it was a good tip, I added Alaa and his family(I'm not sure who the old man is, but I'll keep him in mind). I also added Abdulqader al-Yousef and Safia Qasem al-Haj Yousef's family(they are not strictly Yousefs, but I think they have a place in this list) --Q (talk) 17:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Abu Amash Family
Gulf News Fox News
 * At the hospital in Reyhanli, a small Turkish border town that took in many of the victims, the mourners gathered outside mostly came from just two extended families, Yousuf’s and the Abu Amash family.
 * The families are connected by marriage and both come from Khan Shaikhoun, the village in rebel-held Idlib province that residents said been hit with chemical weapons earlier that morning.
 * “Just look at this!” said Orwa Abu Amash, 33, as he held up his phone. On the screen was a long WhatsApp message listing what he claimed were the names of 46 relatives who had died that day in Khan Shaikhoun.
 * The attack killed at least 75 people...

And of these 75 first reported (now accepted as over 100) it's said 46 were from this Amash family, and (usually) 22 from the related al-Yousef family - so about 68 people from this core of two intermarried families, and 7 other people. It's likely the other 25 or so added later are not related, and they had the core target family all dead and accounted for from the start. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The VDC's list of 92 includes not a single Abu Amash victim. In fact, an Arabic search for all named Abu Amash ( أبو عماش ) - last one listed in an Idlib rebel ("FSA") killed back in November. This could mean they didn't get reported and should be added (so like 138 alleged death toll), or they're included under other names, or that guy just made up a list of 46 names. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * At 6 total, I could list them all. Interesting:


 * Abdul Aziz Nashaat Abu Ammash high school student from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by regime snipers 7-31-2011 in Martyrdom location 	Hama: Sabunia, and rebels got the body. This was they day some 80+ civilian men were reported shot in Hama, and 26 police and soldiers were also killed, including slaughtered captive ones dumped in the river next morning, for the deadliest day yet of the Assad regime's repression.
 * Shadi Abo Ammash civilian, Khan Sheikhoun, shot by the army 2-25-2013
 * Diae Refat Abo Ammash civilian, from Khan Sheikhoun, martyred under torture in the prisons regime 7-02-2013
 * Ali Abd al-Kareem Abo Ammash, "FSA" killed in clashes, in Morek, 10-29-2014
 * Nisreen Abo Ammash married woman, from Khan Sheikhoun, killed 11-08-2016 by Syrian bombing.
 * Amar Ahmad Abo Amash FSA, from Khan Sheikhoun, shot by Syrian forces Hama: north Hama countryside on 11-27-2016


 * Then 46 killed all at once by alleged sarin on April 4?


 * A quick internet search in Arabic and English and found no more details or reports, and no viewable list of 46 killed or anything. It's almost as if this guy just talked to the NTY folks and was otherwise invisible. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

El-Qedh Family
El-Qedh: A story of a family annihilated by Assad chemical attack Orient News video: woman expllains from inside a home (outside shown 0:19, 1:59, seems not easy to place) "they were all killed No one survived. ... They were killed in dozens... may God take revenge" They were at "the home of colonel Mohamed El-Qedh," but "my father died in 2000," she says, leaving two sons, four daughters, and their mother. "My mother Hend al-Yousef" was killed, along with both brothers EmadEddin and Turki al-Qedh, each with 3 kids: 2 boys and a girl in both cases. Nour al-Azraq also died. "She raised Emad's children after their mother was killed" (airstrike is blamed) Emad;'s children are Mohamed age 12, Abdulrahman in 2nd grade, Hend age 5. (pictures flash with named victims - these can be matched to images catalogued here). Turki's children were younger - a boy age 5, a baby Adnan, and Hanody, 2 months. Seems all the sisters lived, because they married out into other families? "Dozens" must refer to everyone who died, not this family. Ten people are listed as dying here. There's Yousef connection - married in via her alleged mother. That's interesting. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

VDC listings, from big list of 92 victims "Dozens of civilians were killed or injured in a massacre committed by the regime's air forces in Khan Sheikhoun city with missiles loaded with toxic gas": name ( القدح ) given as al-Qadah:
 * Hind Turky al-Yousef, adult female (Grandmother of the family - son Turki named for her father?)
 * Imad al-Deen Mohammad al-Qadah, adult male, pharmacist. (Mohamed should be his father's name - that lines up)
 * Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 1, child-male
 * Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 2, child-male
 * Son of Imad al-Deen al-Qadah 3, child-male
 * Turky al-Qadah marital status unknown
 * Nour al-Azraq, wife of Turky Mohammad Alqadah
 * Son of Turky al-Qadah 1 child-male
 * Son of Turky al-Qadah 2 child-male
 * Hind Turky al-Qadah, child-female --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:41, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Al-Saleh Family
VDC lists 4 kids from the al-Saleh family, their mother is Abeer al-Saleh, the father and the mother are not listed among the dead. I strongly suspect that their mother, Abeer al-Saleh, is the same person as the woman in this video. My explanation: VDC lists two families where 4 children died, the other family is the al-Khaleds, but the mother of those kids is listed as dead. Abeer al-Saleh was working when the chemical attack happened, when she went home at 9:30, she couldn't find her children, she was told that they left with and unidentified woman. In the evening of that day, "someone" told her that her kids(their dead bodies) were at "al-Yousef's house". --Q (talk) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Update, VDC also lists 4 kids with the family name "al-Shayeh", without mother's name, but the HRW report only has 3 kids with this family name. Both reports have an adult male with this family name, and VDC gives Morek as the place of birth of all of them. The lack of mention of the adult male still suggests that the woman in this video is Abeer al-Saleh, but there is also a possibility that she belongs to this other family. --Q (talk) 16:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Update2, This report claims that a displaced family from Morek was found dead inside a "cave" after the chemical attack, Ibraheem al-Shayeb's VDC page has the same photo, so I guess that settles it, the woman in this video is not part of the al-Shayeh family.

Amira Saleh's house is pointed out at minute 1:33 of BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763 User:SteveMcIntyre (talk) 5 May 2017

I found two additional interviews with Amira/Abeera al-Saleh. The first one is from RFS Media Office in arabic, it also shows her house for a brief moment in the beginning. The other one is from Syria Charity, this is most likely not the original upload. This interview has french subs, machine translation with my notes in italic: --Q (talk) 12:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * At 9:30 am, I returned home. I saw all these people wearing masks. I felt that something had happened. It was completely unusual. The neighborhood was so sad. I started looking for my children. I did not find them at home. They slept when I left in the morning. I looked for street streets. I thought they were panicky that they may have fled out.
 * Fear of bombing?
 * Yes that's it. But I did not find them. Then, after the Adhan (call to prayer), A man came He spoke to my brothers and said to them: Your sister's 4 children have died. Then when they brought me my 4 children, 3 girls and a boy, I looked at them and ... I figured one of them would wake up. But none of them ... They were all asleep, I thought it was not mine. I was told it's yours, I said it's impossible. I was told, "These are your children, Abir, you can have them say goodbye now," and I lost consciousness. Their clothes ... Smell their games, their habits I was mother of 4 children and now I do not have any. The four are gone. Here are the bodies of my 4 children (she shows the kids on her phone).
 * The case of Oum Mohamed(Mohamed's mother) is one case among others who also lost loved ones in the village of Khan Chikhoun. Oum Mohamed worked the agricultural land to blacken (feed) his 4 children. She's got them all lost.


 * She scrolls through the four photographs of the children on a Samsung smart phone. After the photos we see a video of a scene at a morgue posted on the Facebook account of Hadi Abdullah. I could not find the video, maybe it is private. (Actually we do not see the video, maybe just a screenshot of the Facebook post.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I compiled these into one image, with notes at this blog post where I identify them as the kids in the van in SAMS photos, alongside Abdelhamid Yousef's alleged kids and apparently his supposed wife. Note the three girls are only photographed here in one session, each alone, then all in a group, and there are no others shared, and none including this or any mother. As I said, these feel like, perhaps, "pictures you have your hostages pose for, so you could later use them as "family photos" in just this manner." The boy was photographed separately in another setting, and crudely stitched into the group shot, with feathering of the white wall around him. Was he just apart at photo time, or was he perhaps spliced into a family originally lacking boys? The morgue image is a clear match by clothing to two of the girls in the van. CW Khan Sheikhoun 2017 Saleh kid photos.jpg

--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:48, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Is this not exactly the same story we hear from the mother in this Orient News video?
 * Mother lost her four children in Assad chemical attack - Orient News Eng, April 15, 2017
 * A woman covered in black is interviewed at some refugee camp. She says she left for work on the fields at 5:30 and returned home at 9:30. Her children did not die at home, but had been taken away by someone. At first she could not find the children, but in the evening she received word that their bodies were at the al-Youssef house. I said earlier that this was not a description of a gas attack but of a kidnapping. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ''I work in farming so I could feed my children. I am the breadwinner of my family. I left for work 5:30 am.
 * ''I went back home at 9:30. When I reached my neighborhood I saw people on the floor wearing gas masks. Everyone was busy with their own selves. I entered my house looking for my children. I could not find them. I called for them but no answer. I began to panic and scream.
 * ''My neighbor came in and told me that he thought I took my children and fled. I told him I was at work this whole time. He then told me she saw the children leaving with a woman. He told me he couldn't recognize her.
 * ''I began to walk like a crazy person, looking for my children. But I could not find any of them. My brothers and brothers-in-law helped me look for them. They went from hospital to hospital, but in vain. So we waited and waited. We waited until the night. Then someone came out of nowhere, and told me, he told me that my children were at al-Youssef house. My brother went to get them. He brought them in the car.
 * ''When I saw my four children, I started to scream: "Those are not my children! They are dead, my children are alive!" But they were my children. All four of them killed! I looked at them! May God never bless him (Assad)!

Wow. Great work, Q. See, she was lucky enough to work the fields, maybe around the grain silo area to the northeast of that sarin crater, so she was lucky enough to be upwind, while the kids slept in the plume drifting southwest. Or, so script-writers who read the wind backwards might think... So, in he BBC video, isn't there shelling damage at or quite near the home of "Amira Saelh and her children?" Her story in the first video would explain why they're gas and not shelling deaths. They survived the shelling, were driven by her brother over Abdelhamid's house, put hastily in the basement with them as dad went to help others survive, and they all died in the basement with trapped sarin vapor. Well, that's a pretty stupid story. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

At 0:08 she (her doppelganger?) is with a kid; is this kid elsewhere? Clip does not really allow to tell is it her (looks heavier build but camera is at an angle, so could be; face not seen clearly)--Resup (talk) 06:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I suppose she'd say that's her niece she's babysitting, partly just from loneliness. But really, who knows? --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Abdelhamid Al-Yousef generally doesn't mention these kids being in his home, but in this long interview on Facebook with English subtitles he does. (I couldn't find this version on Youtube or anywhere else) At -4:41 he mentions, long after speaking only of him, his wife, and kids in the house, "4 kids with my wife and toddler twins - I checked on them before leaving and they seemed fine. They were going down to the shelter. No one knew about them. When I came back I was told they were at the shelter. We went to bring them out but found that they were all dead." This is well after his wife and kids were already found in his absence and shown to him, so apparently they were not in the shelter? And he came back to his home why? Explaining further, he says "We have a widowed neighbor with four kids," the oldest one aged 10. "She usually dropped her kids at my home. All of them were killed with my children. No one knew about their deaths." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:58, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Family name?
Another thing: it's odd that Amira/Abeer Saleh would have children named Saleh. It suggests she took her husband's name, which usually means the person is non-Muslim, or at least pretty 'modern' or 'Western-influenced' in their adherence to sharia. The Koran says a woman keeps her father's name even as her kids take their father's. Would salafist activists take a real woman of such traditions, accept her professed conversion or repentance, wrap her in black, and put her in front of so many cameras? Unlikely. If there's a real Saleh family, they all died and she's not listed to make room for this stand-in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems to be that Syrian state does not automatically change name to husband's -don't know (state is not Sharia), but some say it does not ( Gerami Shahin here). But could be used by journos, for some Mr. and Mrs. Smitting. --Resup (talk) 06:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * But here, her alleged neighbor Abu Rabeaa calls them "Amira Saleh and her children." It seems to be a community thing, with no state intervention either way. However you want to do it. And the local think they did it that way. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't rule out the possibility that Amira is al-Saleh by birth(probably even related to their husband), and it's just a coincidence that both of them have the same family name. Also, when the old man in the BBC video says "Amira Saleh's children were here", I think he means that they were there at that moment, not that they lived there. --Q (talk) 18:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Good call. I almost came back to mention that myself, glad to see someone else think the same. Some names are generally common, some may be on 50% of the people in some areas, with close, distant, unrelated, and unknown relations mixed. I think your al-Yousef list shows a Yousef marrying a Yousef, so you can't say which name (in her heart) she really kept. Saleh could be the same, it's generally common. This was never a proof kind of point anyway, and this adds another question mark. But it remains a possibly important clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:21, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Al-Khaled Family
Anas Mustafa al-Khaled, his wife, and 4 of their children died in the attack according to VDC, the HRW report lists a 5th child, "Mustafa Anas al-Khalid". Anas al-Khaled's brother, Osama al-Khaled talks about what happened in this video from Edlib Media Center. The video is in arabic, but the guy shows some photos of his dead family members and himself. I think the man in this White Helmets video at 00:22 looks suspiciously similar to Anas al-Khaled, but I can't confirm that it's him. --Q (talk) 12:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Abu Rameea
Abu Rameea, one of the men in the washing scene at the cave compound, is profiled in BBC video http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39796763. User:SteveMcIntyre (talk) 5 May 2017
 * Note: - BBC has a longer version of one of the clips used in the SMART media video at 1m 13s without the SMART watermark. The same scene is also seen in this photo. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Victims from Khatab and Majdal Area
Noting that 100+ civilian hostages were said to be seized by al-Nusra-led militants from Khatab and Majdal, Hama, just days before the alleged chemical attack killed 100+ civilians in the area they withdrew to with those hostages... it's possible that's just who died (or it might be too obvious and thus a false lead, but...) If that were the case, it's to be expected opposition records won't reflect that, but would help launder the identities and origins of the victims. But there might be slips or glimpses - so it's odd that one guy from Khatab and a family from the town next to Majdal are included in the VDC's records. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/jumping-conclusions-something-not-adding-idlib-chemical-weapons-attack/
 * (Leith Fadel report...)

Nayef Family
Among the non-KS locales VDC lists the dead as hailing from, perhaps the most interesting is Marzaf, Hama province. That's here on Wikimapia, right next to Majdal, where some of the 100+ hostages were seized by terrorists just days before this massacre. 6 members of a Nayef family from there, and no one else, it says, wound up in Khan Sheikhoun and dead on the 4th. No children, 4 men, and two unnamed women who were the wife and sister-in-law of Alaa al-Nayef. In the big list of 92, they have a tendency to be tallied in between the al-Qadah victims - the two sets were being tallied at once, could be related. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Gareth Porter raises an interesting point:
 * The list of victims appended to that NGO report shows (#72-80) that Amer Nayf al Nayef from Hama province and eight members of his family—the only victims on the list not from Khan Sheikhoun itself – had all died that day. Last September Syrian Voice, a news website with contacts in the opposition, identified Amer Nayef as the head of the Hama Province Council’s relief office.


 * An offensive led by al Qaeda and Ahrar al Sham that had begun in Hama province to which the government responded with airstrikes had displaced thousands of rural people. Nayef told Syrian Voice that he was looking for housing for the displaced in other areas. Obviously Nayef moved to Khan Sheikhoun to work on that resettlement.

Hm! There are actually some 31 displaced people out of the 91 listed in the SNHR's report. Mainly Morek and Latamnah. That's LISTED AS; the real number could be higher, many names and towns of origin could be falsified, and "displaced" could mean kidnapped. If you wanted to make up some fake names, what would they be? Here, Al-Yousef, and a few large intermarried families. This is the biggest rug to sweep things under.
 * Note: I can only find Nayef speaking of resettlement in September, 2016, so not in regards to this more recent offensive.

“Through the efforts and assistance of the Civil Defense, families have been evacuated to the southern Idlib countryside as a first step,” Amer Nayef, president of the provincial council’s relief office, told the Syrian Voice. ... “We are sending out a distress call to all organizations working in liberated areas,” Amer Nayef told the Syrian Voice. “Displaced residents keep on coming… they are living without any stability.”'' --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

The Islamists reportedly kidnapped some 250 civilians from Khattab and Majdal before they retreated on March 31, and took these people north to (or toward?) Khan Sheikhoun. Two victims are listed as from occupied Khattab, none from Majdal (as listed), but the Nayefs from Marzaf just next door, either occupied in the offensive, or held before.


 * 54- Amer al Nayef, lawyer, from Ma’rzaf, Hama
 * 55- Alaa al Nayef, from Ma’rzaf, Hama
 * 56- Mohammad al Nayef, from Ma’rzaf, Hama
 * 57- Alaa Mohammad al Nayef, from Ma’rzaf, Hama
 * 58- Alaa Mohammad al Nayef’s wife, from Ma’rzaf, Hama
 * 59- Sister of Alaa Mohammad al Nayef’s wife, from Ma’rzaf, Hama

So the relief director (for the rebel side presumably?) and his whole family moved voluntarily to help the others who moved voluntarily, and then they all died from the sarin? It sounds like he was either helping, or voluntarily claiming that, in public statements. So he wasn't likely a prisoner. He could be a facilitator of the mass-abduction. Could he and his family have been sacrificed afterwards to help seal this especially important secret? Hm, possible. Otherwise, this could complicate the overall picture emerging here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:28, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Samer from Khatab
"Samer" age 18, from Khattab, Hama also has Martyrdom location of Idlib: Khan Sheikhoun, from the chemical attack on 4-4.

A total of 28 dead hailed from Hama, according to the VDC. Most came from Morek, it says, but other places appear: Marzaf as mentioned, Lattamna, Kafraltoun, Hasraya. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

SNHR list of 91 includes Samer (#74, still no family name) and another Khattab resident: 89- Mrs. Hend Nabhan Duhna, from Khattab.