Talk:Houla:Victims

Sorting out the Sayeds
We hear of two total al-Sayed households, one seen with seven victims, named by SANA (Aref's house) - seen recovered by rebels with UN monitors present, on the 26th. The other agreed site is not seen (Muawiya's house) - minimum agreed three victims there. We also have two brothers of Aref, allegedly seen dead with him, at his house. Others, unclear. Signs say there was a third site at least with bodies, locale unknown. The UN CoI decided a total of 13-15 Al-Sayeds were killed (June report, p. 7).

Finally checking the VDC and correlating a bit, we have a total of 14 entries in three categories: - SANA cited the third man outside as Aref's other brother Imad. With no match, I can only call 6 matches.
 * Aref's House
 * 1) Fairouz Ali Al-Daher Married and has 4 children (SANA gives Izdihar Ali Al-Daher)
 * 2) Aref Mohammad Al-Sayed Married and has 4 children
 * 3) Aqba (Oqba) Mohammad Al-Sayed Married and has 4 children  Retired Officer  (Razeena's husband?)
 * 4) Adel Aref Al-Sayed CM
 * 5) Nader Aref Al-Sayed CM 10
 * 6) Rasha Aref Al-Sayed CF 10


 * Muawiya's house
 * 1) Ahmad Muaweya Al-Sayed - AM Married and has 9 children - Retired Colonel
 * 2) Mohammad Ahmad Al-Sayed AM unmarried
 * 3) Sara Muaweya Al-Sayed CF

Oqba/Other/unknown
 * 1) Razeena Rajab Al-Sayed Married and has 4 children (Oqba's wife?)
 * 2) Adel Aqba Al-Sayed CM (Oqba's son?)
 * 3) Shawqi Adel Al-Sayed Mother's Name: Fayruz Age: 23 single  (Ali says his brother Shaoqi was the third man killed, replacing Imad... that he's the one kid specified as Fayruz's son makes me want to exclude him - he's too old, from another batch)
 * 4) Ali Adel Al-Sayed Adult Male (no notes - Ali sometimes says that's his father's name, and Aref is an uncle)
 * 5) Khawla Aref Al-Sayed AF age 32

Next, the ones from the third locale - we've seen those at Aref's house being scooped up. Petri posted a video of fresh victim finds on May 27 (no need to watch the video). Listening, I realize I can partly make out the names. Anyone who thinks they can do better could try. I think it's Monther Hrfosh filming and naming, and man are those other people loud. They're blaming Shabiha of Assad, I can hear. Each starts with Shahid, martyr.
 * 0:15 Adel Sayed (Aref's Adel is younger, was picked up already - who's this?)
 * 0:25 Adel Aqba Sayed (very long hair, blood under chin - not a properly sliced throat anyway)
 * 0:30 (Younis?) Aqba al-Sayid? (toddler, hole in abdomen, forehead blown out)
 * 0:35 - Again sounds like Adel Aqba Sayid? (hole in chest, burned arm?)

The Syria Politik list (see front page says Oqba was joined in death by his wife and three children. That almost perfectly explains this - except three are named Adel? The four boys on video include the one apparent son listed at VDC, and three others not listed - possibly his four sons. Maybe partly nephews, but all Sayed, not Aref's seen kids, not Sara. They add to the total. Where were they laying at until the 27th? Not apparently on any UN pinned location. They found the dad at Aref's house, but they might have found these others as well. Alex Thomson reported from his visit on the 27th:
 * It is therefore odd that in the northern area of the city there are still civilians. The United Nations saw them today and questioned them.


 * The deputy head of the UN mission in Syria, Martin Griffiths, told me: “We managed to find one family. There was a woman, unfortunately dead, with her four dead children. We were able to remove the bodies.”


 * ''I asked him what conditions were like in that part of the town he replied: “We were near the centre of the town when a Syrian army armoured personnel carrier approached. It passed us and fired two rounds. That of course caused a firefight. It certainly slowed us up a little in our mission.”

Was this at massacre site 1 or 2 or other, unmarked? If 2, then where were the Muawiya house victims?

The tally of 14, then, excludes three boys, and possibly Aref's brother Imad. So the Sayed death toll seems to be at least 17-18. And there seem to be a total of 4, not 2, husband-wife teams with possible kids who were ... killed. Considering the DCHRS list and now, in a table form, it's coming together.

DCHRS note: Sayed translated like Mr. or sir so those are the Mr. Mr. type entries. 15 total. Sid must be the fill-in for the offensive name Muawiya. Even Aref here gets his name as a middle name for his children, as does the others. Oqba's sons stand out for the lack, along with a lack of him. roughly matching the names given on the May 27 video. Note Shaoqi/Shawki here has a middle name suggesting he's the son of an missing Adel, not Aref and Fayruz' kid. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Watch for Casts
I've been thinking about the Muawiya Al-Sayed household. The detail about Ahmed's broken leg stands out as one of those things included to explain something we might have seen (like Ali's uncle on TV). I haven't noticed if there's a young adult male victim with a cast on his leg anywhere in the video record. But if there is and anyone else stumbles across it first, please take note. The leaving behind of the Aref Al-Sayed victims was clearly to "prove" the government held that area, and that's why they couldn't get the bodies. That was supposed to suggest the government did it, and the impression was picked up by the UN CoI whoput the front-line of rebel access totally north of both Al-Sayed homes. So... if there's any evidence they took possession of bodies from the Muawiya home, right across from the hospital they can't have conquered, that would obviously be a big clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:17, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

DCHRS
I have grave doubts about the credibility of this Damascus Center who provided our victim list. I didn't notice before, but they're a member of FIDH/IFHR. Libya's branch of that (LLHR) was notoriously shameless with regards to rebel crimes blamed on the Libyan government forces. Also the Syrian Network for human rights, I think, is one of the observatories re-named. If it's the joke one, I'm all for that. The names here are based on something, and worth considering, but for purposes of getting things right, I'll see about getting us a more reliable list and eventually comparing this to it. --Caustic Logic 18:12, 1 July 2012 (EST)

SANA victim photos
The SANA report is only linked to the cached copy on Google. I understand this to mean you have not been able to access the originals. It also has photographs missing from the cache. I wonder if you have seen these? Some of the photos may be screen shots from rebel videos, some may be original Syrian Army photographs. (Saved copies.) -- Petri Krohn 12:17, 4 October 2012 (EST)
 * New Massacres by al-Qaeda-linked Terrorist Groups against Families in al-Shumariyeh and Taldo in Homs Countryside – May 26, 2012
 * Saved where? No, can't see that link. --Caustic Logic 21:49, 4 October 2012 (EST)
 * I have seen a big cache of photos at Lebanese forum A Separate [sic] State of Mind. Two separate batches (one w/link to the other). If these are the same, I have them all. If not, will want. Great work video cataloging by the way, some new things to me there. --Caustic Logic 22:49, 4 October 2012 (EST)
 * For the record, I could eventually see and save these additional images and we've found even more. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Al-Shumariya
The place pointed out by Adam as Al-Shumariya is on the road to the water woks, at an elevation of 420m, 100 meters above Taldou. The geography is a strong indication that it is populated by Alewites, what ever its name is. It would have come under attack if the water works was attacked from the south. -- Petri Krohn 19:39, 4 October 2012 (EST)


 * Yep. I think that just might be it, though there a few leaps in there. It's definitely open to question, but I think this is a big clue. --Caustic Logic 22:45, 4 October 2012 (EST)


 * Saw your forum post - Samalil is here, two villages apart. --CE 23:25, 4 October 2012 (EST)

More videos
Who are these victims? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Hula 27-5 bodies of the new 4 children from Hula massacre
 * Published on May 27, 2012 by Monther Hrfosh


 * We don't know generally who's who, and these four don't even look familiar from the big photo set at the Lebanese forum or the few videos I've watched. Four young children, one just a baby with a hole in his/her head. They're quite possibly from the same family, likely an AbdulRazaq one, but who knows? Interesting the bloody neck on the one-doesn't really look like a sliced throat, but oddly someone holds his hand over as if he doesn't want it seen (0:18), while everyone want us to see the other two kids with holes in the chest/abdomen. It goes in the file and if I notice them again, they should be familiar. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * At first I thought they were Ali's sisters, handed over the rebel side. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "New" and a similar number make it a reasonable impression, but no. Also, that family only had one sister, Rasha, as given. I was confused by the SANA video, where a pink ribbon made one boy appear like a girl, but that was actually a head wound (the raw footage helps). Two boys, apparently, like Ali said - he seems to be accurate there, but perhaps not for the usual straightforward reason of being their actual brother. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * According to the pointing narrator (Monther) these are Sayed family boys, apparently, one just long-haired. See above. However, it sounds like three are named Adel.That's probably not right. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Interesting videos from May 25 on Meriem021 channel:
 * ‫الحولة تبريد جثث الشهداء بالثلج 26-5-2012‬ (Houla cooling of the bodies...) – 1 view!
 * ‫‫"الحولة خمس نساء و طفلة من ضحايا المجزرة 25-5-2012‬" – Houla five women and children victim...

Googling around brings up strange word "تؤازرها", image search says "fire." Ended up on this forum thread from May 27 with FSA propaganda postings. One links to this video: Homs Hula 26.5 sister deposited brother martyr. I do not think this martyr is a massacre victim, more like KIA. Body seems to be lying on mosque floor. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:57, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Burial uncut
Came across this while looking for new videos as Leith announced this morning that "A terrorist headquarter belonging to Jabhat al-Nusra was destroyed in the town of Taldo near Al-Houla". The channels are almost all dead - except Jalal who has uploaded two weeks ago and this guy who is uploading old material, mostly from 2011 (Hassan Husein channel is also still active). This is 28 min uncut from someone walking around between mosque with victims and burial scene, with UN observers and the known protagonists around. I don't think we've seen this before. --CE (talk) 12:33, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Hula massacre of children buried under the eyes of observers, uploaded by Amr Faour (thepain12a), March 28, 2014


 * Wow, still new material? The two-year is coming up, and I plan to release something new. I'll have to check this out, thanks. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Later Alleged Victim Photos
Petri has brought these up somewhere, but not here, and I just stumbled acorss them again, so... Throughout 2013 and 2014, the Facebook page Hula Massacre continued, especially at each of 2 anniversaries now, to remind people of the massacre I don't mind people being reminded of. It has a bunch of newer atrocity pictures intermingled with Houla stuff, some old stuff recycled, some of it new. The informational centerpiece is an essay of some detail, in Arabic, with a map (little new info), a brief explanation of the rebel story, the controversy (UN probe, FAZ etc.) and countering that  mainly with a re-telling of what the Spiegel witnesses said.

Later, on the two year mark, they posted some new photos of valleged victims we've never seen before. There is plenty of room for question, but I consider these most likely genuine Houla Massacre victims.


 * 50+ Children Killed by Assad disinfographic
 * photo montage alone, color - seems to have partial float-over tags with names - not working well here. June 20, 2013 posting Jan 3, 2013
 * man and girl, wrapped, laid across the hood of a UN vehicle - this is a genuine shot. The man is seen elsewhere on UNSMIS video, eyes taped over, maybe gone. The girl, I don't know. There's red writing on the hood beneath them. Creepy.
 * Abdulrazaq massacre array photo - 12 children, as seen on May 25 video, a bit clearer here - is that natural daylight? Of the 25th or the 26th? Hmmm...
 * young girl, shot through the bridge of her nose
 * young child, no marks
 * an older child with hacked-apart face - hacked diagonally, shot from the back, major exit wound - order unclear.
 * A woman, on the pavement, bloody (neck area?) covered