Talk:Homs Massacres

Incident Scope
What counts as a massacre worth covering? So far as the one doing the page, I've been liberal. The geographic scope is narrow enough to consider alleged massacres, sectarian killings done even with car bombs, episodes of mass killing of (I don't know, two or more?) especially those with high death tolls, dead children or whole families, and alleged shelling episodes with suspiciously high or lopsided death tolls suggesting it's really a massacre at work. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Geographic Scope
If this page is about Homs Massacres, and we've considered what's a massacre, the other part is what do we consider Homs? Below, I explain what I decided on. Further below, is the area map that just shows it - the yellow-shaded area. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

The scope is negotiable. It could include all Homs province (which stretches way back into big areas where relatively little happens), or any of these more core areas: Houla, Qusayr, Rastan, Talbiseh, al-Ghanto, etc. I say Houla has a page, Qusayr has a page, and Rastan/Talbiseh could. Hama clearly could use its own place, perhaps including Rastan et al. This could get big enough just on Homs city, immediate suburbs, etc. The Abel massacre should be included, despite being between Homs and Qusayr orbits, since Baba Amr was emptied the day before and that's likely where the killers came from. Spots to the east not in anyone else's orbit could be included; I think that might cover Maksar al-Husn - nah, too far out, unless we can connect it to militants from Homs. Different thoughts welcome. --Caustic Logic (talk) 07:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Manner of inclusion: general timeline with entries, links in most cases (depending how many entries we finally have). Most links for now will be to pages, but a lot of smaller massacres will need space short of a page, which will be a section on this page.--Caustic Logic (talk) 07:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

This might be a stupid page, best dome as one thread of the Homs answer to Life in Liberated Qusayr. Can be made mobile in time, so no big rush to judgment I suppose. Still a good spot to work out the massacres and a few related issues. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I've decided Rastan is too far off, too much in Hama's orbit, and too big with an orbit of its own, to include here. But at least up to and probably including Talbiseh should be included, certainly Ghanto, Jabourin, etc. Hama and Rastan and surroundings should get their own page in time, which could get huge. Idlib's page too will be insane if it ever happens and gets filled-in. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

As the map I posted a while ago shows, I decided as far west as Talkalakh (and for that matter points a ways east) should be included, even though that's a ways out, has fairly little activity (only one known massacre so far) and space between where little happens. But one area I'll add to the map is over there and worth including, with some recorded activity - Krak De Chevalier, aka Hosin Castle (or Hosin, the town around the castle, and an Alawite family name in the area) is just a bit north of Talkalakh. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Apologies, I had stopped checking maps as I included new incidents. The new Wikimapia wasn't loading and I just now found how to get to the old version. Mahin as I sort-of knew is right by Nabk, Sadad, Deir Attiya, in what is the border area between Homs and Damascus areas, so probably too far out and better ciovered under a Qalamoun page. Nabk + people displaced from Homs city still counts ... Ezzadine is way northeast by Rastan and near Khunayfis/Salamiyeh, in Hama. or too far from Homs. So these can be saved for another page. Also, I have a good idea and may start that page today, perhaps one for all Hama=Rastan-Homs axis areas not yet covered. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Homs Massacres Outside Homs

 * December 8-9, 2013: Darwish-al-Faeouri Family Massacre, 10 victims. An unusual case, ten relatives from Deir Baalba, Homs, moved somehow to the Damascus area, are killed there - around Nabk, as rebels and the government clashed there - in Decmeber 2013. On December 8, four adult men were killed by "shelling" in "Damascus Suburbs: Nabk." Described as "FSA," they apparently came to fight, but quite possibly not. Their last names all are al-Saleh al-Faeouri. Then, 6 members killed Dec. 9 by "shooting" somewhere in "Damascus suburbs." Same basic area, four adult females and two adult males, all named al-Darweesh al-Faeouri except one woman named al-Afnan al-Faeouri. Darwish has been of interest. That's an unusual pattern, but meshes with the previous day's to suggest 4 husband-wife sets and two single men, all coming to fight or to be there for the fighters. Maybe the children were sent somewhere safer yet after running to Nabk but before their demise there.


 * December 27, 2013: SOHR Facebook, December 26
 * An internally displaced family of four (husband, wife and their daughter and the wife's sister) from Homs were killed overnight in the town of al-Nabek. Activists accused regime forces of killing them and burning their bodies. A rebel leader was killed in the eastern Ghouta clashes. Clashes continue in Adra between ISIS and regime forces, supported by Hizbullah and other militia.

The family is unnamed. VDC doesn't show any such family from Homs of any one name dying in the days Dec. 24-27. It shows Nine martyrs from the non-existent province: Homs, area: Nabk, killed Dec. 27 by shooting - all adult males. The one man's wife, daughter, and sister-in-law - if he's even one of these - are not listed with him. How many have unlisted family? Hopefully none ... Here the only common name is Aloush, repeated twice, which has appeared in the Homs Massacres. No others appear familiar excepty al-Abd - this means little either way. These nine men sound possibly more like part of the ambushed rebels Syria boasted of killing "dozens" of the same day. One Aloush at least explains "Several civilians martyred in an ambush made by regime's forces during their displacement from Nabk city." Tried checking Syrian Shuhada, but they don't have info this recent. The LCC is back to posting daily updates for December on its site, but is 12 days behind, with the most recent being the 16th. More clarification needed here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:42, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I see them now, I think - Alnshaiwati family (not familiar) from Bab Draib, Homs, Date of death: 2013-12-25. Martyrdom location: Damascus Suburbs: Nabk. Cause of Death: Other. Notes: A massacre of a family whose bodies were found burned at the hands of members of the Iraqi forces and the Lebanese

(that used to class as "field execution," not "other," which is stuff like heart attack, exhaust fumes, and a ship sinking near Italy)
 * Mamdouh al-Nshaiwati Adult male, "called as Abo Shafeeq." (this means he's a rebel guy, I think)
 * Fariha al-Nshaiwati Adult Female, wife of Mamdouh Alnshaiwati
 * Sawsan Mamdouh al-Nshaiwati Adult Female (the daughter, implicitly)
 * Fawziz al-Nshaiwati Adult Female, sister of Fariha

Specific Events
Those needing space to explore, with No Dedicated Page, and not yet ready to include on the front page, will be explored in sub-sections below, listed in chronological order.

Jinyat Family Massacre
Some notes: I've considered the Kamar Hamad video(s) perhaps the single most hideous thing I've seen yet, and as I originally noted here"don't even want to link to it," but of course the LCC post I cited has the video embedded right there, ready to accidentally hit play. So I can't hide it, so long as Youtube finds it fit to keep up what I hope no one considers any kind of porn. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

One guess with basis but high chance of being wrong: Mr. Jinyat was a wealthy businessman who ran the shoe factory nearby, was okay with the government and didn't support the rebels. He was slaughtered along with his two wives, daughter, son, and sister-in-law and niece (taken in after his brother was killed). Oh, and they were robbed along the way of everything valuable and portable. Surplus wives/widows and maybe the pre-teen were put in that category. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Halmouz and Ter-Maalleh Massacres
May 5, 2012, Ter Malla and Halmouz, near Talbiseh
 * LCC: Syria News - May 5, 2012 (Warning: Graphic Videos)
 * Video: "Martyrs of Halmouz and Teir Maalleh Massacres"
 * Homs: The northern countryside; Halmouz town: A mortar hit Halmouz town from the pro-regime town Jaboureen. Three individuals have been martyred immediately and they were displaced people from Karm Al Zaytoun. An injured man is in a critical situation. 

The bodies shown are charred. Ter Malea is just north of Duveir, Jabourin (placed for the bus attack, see below) is near Halmouz: a graphic video says "Syria, Halmouz +18 A mortar hit Halmouz town from the pro-Assad town Jaboureen. 5-5-2012" So it must be further north, closer to Talbiseh. It's all Homs area, close enough Khalidiya residents in numbers fled the violence there, only to have it quickly track them down anyway.--Caustic Logic (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Two others from May 5, not part of this massacres list are from "Teir Maalle" - Zakaria Mahdy Al-Rayes and Ahmad Joukhdar, age 29, shelled in al-Ghanto. The latter is sometimes an Alawite name - one "Jpkhdar" was shot at a rebel checkpoint "by accident." Listed as "regime forces." So apparently these are not the same -

Jandar Resort Massacre
August 7, 2012: 16 men - largely or wholly Christian - were murdered at the resort they worked at near historical Jandar. Arabi Souri reported one version: "....A Christian family from al Alyat village in Homs countryside, central of Syria received the most painful news a family can endure: 10 of its members were butchered during their work in the tourism resort near the Damascus – Homs main highway, Jandar Tourism Resort witnessed yet one more of those heinous scenes of the ‘democratizing’ process of Syria."" Eight names follow (see below). An attached video from Syrian Radio and TV explains 16 were martyred, with ten identified, and only the same eight names shared.

The flip-side story come trough in this VDC list with 16 entries sharing the note: "workers in the Jandar Resort When pro-regime thugs (shabiha) stormed the Resort and opened fire at workers indiscriminately, then took the corpses of the workers to the Military Hospital in Homs." All are adult male. Here 11 are named and 5 unidentified. The Mtanious and unidentified people are from Jandar town (spelled Gender), the Taklas from Alyat, and one other worker was from Hasya'a. All entries say Occupation: Worker. Cause of Death: Shooting.

The three Mtanious names seem to have been in the wrong order (Mtanious first), here and everywhere else. At whatever risk, the listing below changes the order. Is it more odd that three guys of the same (known, Christian) family work together, or that men of three families, who chose the same unusual first name, all wound up working together? Left: modified Arabi Souri list - right: Best match VDC entries. The difference might be of some interest. Michael Rashid Takla - Mikhail Tqla Bassam Marwan Takla - Bassam Tqla Talal Munhem Takla - ?Jousef Tqla? George Elias Takla- Jurjes Tqla Ibrahim Hajal Mtanious - Matanes al-Hajleh Elias Touma Mtanious - ?? Jacob Michael Mtanious - Matanes Mikhail Ahmad Mustapha Koumi - Ahmad Mostafa ?? - Mohammad Hajouz ?? - Ahmad al-Naser ?? - Khuder al-Khaled ?? - Salem Qasab

The remaining five unidentified men are hardly worth linking to. It is odd that even with the improved details of the Shabiha massacre that overrode the government version, it's still not known who they are, by either side. Their attribution to a set town might seem shady; how do you know where they're from if you don't know who they are? But this could just be shorthand for somewhere in the Jandar/resort area. Locations:
 * resort location, not far south of Homs. Within striking distance for south Homs rebels, and especially Qusayr ones.
 * Al-Aliyat: http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=34.5280557&lon=36.8035126&z=11&l=0&m=b&show=/13027367/Al-Aliyat
 * Hasyaa: http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=34.481656&lon=36.7726135&z=11&l=0&m=b&show=/6035085/Hassia-Hisyah
 * Jander (Gender): http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=34.481656&lon=36.7726135&z=11&l=0&m=b&show=/4248611/Jander

Qaddour Family Massacre
I just noted up front that ACLOS hasn't studied the horrifying view of of this incident of April 10, 2013. Almost that quickly, I did sort of. Saved a copy, took the still of our upset activists. The varying displays of dismay are unusually intense here. I'm not sure what to make of that. At times it seems hammed up, like acting, at other times the acting seems suspiciously good. They might be unusually upset by what happened here, especially if they felt party to it. There may well be things we could track down about who these guys are, and the narration might be useful (subtitles on one).

One special thing I spotted, however, spurs me. See inset, detail from the still. Is that Islamist militant an African Mercenary? If it's soot, why not wash it off? The Khaffiyeh is inadequate if he's some Sudanere swordsmith. Why wait until just after the video's rolling to wave him out of the room, as the foreground guy on our left (in the full view, off-frame here) clearly does? Infidels are too stupid to pause videos, I guess? Anyway ... fishing for second thoughts. Is it just a trick of the lighting? What's with the pink eyes? Etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 16:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * And, is it racist to see a black face, when everyone knows there are foreigners, and think that bolsters a case for brutal murder? Hmmm... maybe. The suspicious waving out is by another light-skinned guy, so .... might be a wider problem. --Caustic Logic (talk) 16:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Maramarita Massacre
How did this one slip everyone by? Marmarita, like Hosn, is inside the "valley of the Christians. It's right next to Hosn, a couple kilometers perhaps northwest. Just uphill, statue of our blessed virgin Mary. On August 17, 2013, there was a massacre there, it seems.

August 17 VDC Martyrs: one in all Homs province. A rebel killed in unspecified clashes. Quiet day. That'll be good for most people.

Non-martyrs, "regime casualties" (aka other statistics, the bad guy list) from Homs province, Aug. 17 14 dead including two women, one boy (rank: civilian), and the rest men (rank:unknown). This is unbelievable. Only a few are specified here, with others - even more - from unstated parts of Homs province. Considering the quietness of the day, I suspect a lot of rebels were in this one area, and a few towns at once were hit. Could be. Only one rebel is listed as dying, and there would be attempts at self-defense, plus the Jihadist bulk of fighters now killing and dying and often not being reported to the VDC. More details coming. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Names later. There are two types of entry, ones from Area: Marmreta and ones from just Homs, unspecified. All bear the note "14 killed among them civilians due to clashes between people`s committe (Kataeb) and (Lijan Shabieh) on Kalat Hosn area." Lijan Shabieh = Popular committees, perhaps AKA Shabiha. Krake Des Chevalier (and the surrounding town, which is referred to) has an Arabic name commonly rendered Qala'at al-Hosn. Therefore it's reasonable to call the men "unknown" as some would be fighting and chosen to lead that because they're professionals, and the least likely to be shown mercy. Clearly fighting in defense, in their own town with their families right there. The distinction hardly matters here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:54, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * All victims killed by "shooting." Few detail;s given. A=Adult, M=Male, etc.


 * From Marmreta: Fadi Elias AM - Maya Barsheny AF - Basil Watfeh AM - Ibrahim Saada AM - Jaak Saada AM - Eissa Yazagy AM
 * From the Hosen Area genrally: Ata Allah Abboud AM - Elias Twene AM - Elias Twene AM - Hanan Farah AF - Amin Nakror AM - Basil Salih AM - Samir Son CM - Samir AM - Somar Eissa Yazagy AM
 * Note the presence of a Yazagy man in each batch. This is a name I thought I noted recently. Perhaps not. It's the name of an archbishop in Syria. Doesn't seem to appear much in the VDC database aside from here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Elias is apparently a name with Christian implications - it appears twice here and rarely anywhere else, and all past experience with it in the Middle East is linked to Christians and churches. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

A class of entry lacking is for people taken captive rather than killed in this operation. That seemed to be a rebel goal in general, and this area is closer to Damascus than most ... FWIW. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:54, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And on the flip side, other than the odd picture (likely just backdated from Ghouta) there's nothing about abductions. Reports don't mention it, nor rule it out. Details were still vague, but any significant number of missing would probably have been noted right away. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * LCC Aug 17 (warning: horrible but intriguing top image of a blue-eyed child (girl, I think), dead with mucous out the nose, as abductions were happening in Latakia and elsewhere .... about a week before the Ghouta attacks... there should be some explanation in the report ...): This has Homs videos a ways down the list, looking consistent with a lazy no-death day. Rebels shell someone, someone shells areas, people talk and say regime shelling is way worse. Text reports:
 * By the end of Saturday, the coordination committees were able to document 92 martyrs, among them 14 women, 4 children, and a martyr under torture: 22 martyrs were reported in Damascus and its suburbs; 20 in Aleppo; 14 in Daraa; 12 in Raqqa; 11 in Idlib; 7 in Quneitra; 4 in Deir Ezzor; and 2 in Hama.
 * Did that not even mention Homs? Indeed. Homs is mentioned, as with videos, as experiencing mild shelling in spots. That is all. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:54, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

LCC Aug 16 report (104 dead nationwide, 5 in Homs) is no help. August 18 (91 dead, 4 in Homs) has nothing in text that helps, but include an unexplained video: Shelling in Krak des Chevaliers,Homs (0:53, night video - totally dark) Audio reveals shooting - the narrator saying Allahu Akbar, naming Qalat al-Hosn, Muezzin calling out (pre-dawn?) prayer, noted by the activist. I'm not sure how unique this sound would be in a Christaian-majority town. Maybe daily, as there are some Muslims (?). Distant glow: something's been attacked and is burning. That must be from the shelling - whose they claim it to be is not specified. Allahu Akbar, he says. I'm having my translator have a listen. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:32, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * My translator, Lina, says Hosn is one of the places Sunni attackers will come from, so the area's not exclusive. 150,000 people there in 40 villages, suffering rebel shelling for months. Narration then: "God is the greatest. Homs Qal'at Al-Hosn 18 August 2013. During the prayer time the regime forces are shelling Al-Hosn city, and the land is burning. God is great. It is enough for us to have God by our side, God is great. The shilling is by the cane 57 and the heavy Artillery."
 * I guess it's the artillery they're shooting their guns at? --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Sources
 * Rebels never told the VDC about these non-martyrs; they cite instead News Article: All4Syria تفاصيل حول ما قيل انه مجزرة في وادي النصارى (Google translated)
 * Summarizes the news broadcast on the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights truth of what happened in the Valley of the Christians Recalling the following : ( killed five members of the National Defence Forces loyal to the system, and cited six civilians, including two women , following an attack by fighters from the Brigades fighter on the barriers of national defense on the road to the monastery and through the eye the old Nazareth , also received information about the civilian casualties in the ranks of the attacking battalions ) .


 * And indicates the source of all our partners that the death of civilians occurred because of the filth shabeeha and put them to the barrier, which are stationed near the hotel when it was attacked and killed civilians barrier inside the hotel area:
 * (list elsewhere)
 * For the dead of shabiha barrier has published their leadership Nauh them ( picture below ) confirm that they were members of the " National Defense " who are on the barrier adjacent to the hotel and most importantly that the leadership recognizes that they were killed because they are slaves when Bashar al-Assad, fighting in what it called defense " Azza Syria's Assad !" ! ! ! And therefore denies the rumors that they were fighting some to protect the Christian population in the region or that they were targeted for religious reason .
 * (includes a poster of five killed soldiers, Arabic obituary poster with the story)
 * To note: I doubt this interpretation. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * First Post, another poster
 * A reproduction of a poster taken on August 19, 2013 shows portraits of two Syrian Christian 'martyrs' Tony George Yazegi (L) and Dani Adnan al-Hanna who have died in the 29-month conflict between government forces and rebel fighters, and a picture of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad (top-L) in the town of Marmarita, near the UNESCO World Heritage site, Krak des Chevaliers, in Syria's central Homs province. Christians account for only five percent of the population in Syria, and many back the Assad regime because they fear the growing strength of jihadists whose aim is to set up an Islamic state in Syria.
 * It's not clear these are from the recent attack - will compare pictures and names later. But Yazagi, a Christian name shared by a Syrian archbishop, appears there and here, though no "Yony" seem to have been killed in the VDC list for the 17th. Hana doesn't appear at all, but is the name of a prominent Christian family in Qusayr, Homs, driven out in early 2012 (see Life in Liberated Qusayr) and killed also at least in Homs on Jan. 16, 2012. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Syria News August 17: Syria: Terrorists killed Syrian Christians in Homs countryside
 * ''According to the latest news about the Syrian conflict, a group of foreign-backed extremists, either affiliated with the so-called “Free Syrian Army” (FSA) or the Syrian al-Qaeda offshoot (e.g. Jabhat al-Nusra / al-Nusra Front) have carried out a gruesome attack in the countryside of the city of Homs today morning.
 * The information, which is known so far, says that the two Syrian villages of Al-Hasn and Marmarita, mainly populated by Syrian Christians, were attacked by a group of terrorists today morning. The armed extremists have at least killed more than 15 Christians and wounded many more in their attacks against the locals of both Syrian villages in the countryside of Homs.
 * ''Units of the Syrian Arab army (SAA) have repelled the attacks against the two villages and were finally able to push back the armed terrorist groups. ... then occurred clashes between the Syrian army and the armed extremists have inflicted huge losses at the side of the foreign-backed terrorists and jihadists. According to a source, tens of armed terrorists were clashed in an intense battle near the Syrian village of al-Havas (also located in the countryside of Homs).
 * ''Units of the Syrian Arab army (SAA) have repelled the attacks against the two villages and were finally able to push back the armed terrorist groups. ... then occurred clashes between the Syrian army and the armed extremists have inflicted huge losses at the side of the foreign-backed terrorists and jihadists. According to a source, tens of armed terrorists were clashed in an intense battle near the Syrian village of al-Havas (also located in the countryside of Homs).

Syrian army repelled attacks by the extremists near Homs''


 * The units of the Syrian army were overall able to repel further attempts to capture Syrian villages and to kill further Syrian Christians by the armed terrorist groups in the area today morning. ... However, some battles are still ongoing and especially the death toll of the terrorist attack against the 2 Syrian villages of Al-Hasn and Marmarita, mainly populated by Syrian Christians, is expected to increase when further details are available from the region.

Almost six months later, in January 2014, the terrorists remain in the area, if staging smaller crimes. Just the other day as it happens, Marmarita made Syria news again.
 * January Beheading
 * Survivor recounts how terrorists beheaded a youth on Homs-Marmarita road

Jabourin Bus Attack
September 19, 2013, near Homs and Talbiseh

19 people, most or all civilian and mosr or all Alawite, were killed when terrorists detonated a roadside bomb nest to two buses transporting people to the Alawite village of Jabourin, just north of Homs. Location: Ard al Jabburin on Wikimapia - right by Talbiseh, near the arbitrary cut-off line between Homs and Rastan orbits. Reuters reported "A roadside bomb killed at least 14 members of President Bashar al-Assad's minority Alawite on Thursday ... The blast targeted two buses near the Alawite village of Jabourin, 13 km (8 miles) north of Homs city, said Rami Abdelrahman, head of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. ... Citing a source in a local military hospital, Abdelrahman told Reuters that nine of the victims in Thursday's explosion were civilians while the others may have belonged to the National Defence Forces, a loyalist paramilitary group. He said that clashes broke out between rebel fighters and members of the NDF after the explosion.'' An AP report said "A Syrian official says a roadside bomb has targeted a bus in the country's central province, killing 19 people. The official at the governor's office in Homs province says Thursday's explosion in the village of Jbourin also wounded four people on the bus. He spoke on condition of anonymity in line with regulations. The village is predominantly Alawite, a minority sect to which President Bashar Assad belongs, but it also has Christians and Sunnis. It was not immediately clear why the bus was targeted.''

Sultaniya Massacre Special Workspace
This March 1 (or Feb. 29?) mid-sized massacre (app. 30 victims, all men) seems to warrant extra scrutiny, especially with an eye to establishing victim family patterns ...it's one of the few spots Mando shows up. I was half-tempted to make a page, but w have too many (I plan to collapse the Tellawi massacre into a section). But this one deserves a regular section (later) and extra explaining space. The actual workspace is more on my computer, don't worry. This is more a showing-the-work space. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Victims Table
To even set a death toll, or largest list of provided, non-duplicate names, I think we need a table. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For each column, the number is the victim's entry number there, to show which were documnented at the time (lower #) vs. later. Additions were running up to mid-2013, and may still be incomplete. CDV's "cause of death: field execution" is here shortened to FE. Some analysis is at the end of the table. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:03, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

An exact tally is prevented by confused entries among those named Suleiman are only two distinct names but three ages given. So there's a possibility of as few as two victims plus some goof-ups, up to four victims recorded in a fragmentary way. Melhem, on the other hand, could be 6 or 7 men, probably 7. So the total number of victims recorded in these opposition sources is a range of 38-41 executed people, with 1-2 children, 2-3 women, and the remaining 34-37 being adult males.--Caustic Logic (talk) 03:33, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Analysis
From the reports and this table, we can see the differences between two main groupings, put forth as, and might well be, two different massacres of 17 and 14-18 victims each. So ... is it one or two? Similarities: Baba Amr-listed adult males of a few families, executed in Baba Amr and/or south of there, where rebels had access, on about the same day. With Baba Amr's rebel brigades, their weapons, hostages, etc. all scattered, offing hostages in two areas at once is more likely than usual, with or without a central order connecting the crimes. But the division into two groups could also be nothing more than a more publicized half of a rebel massacre vs. the other half - and either way for easier labeling, it will all stay under the one name.
 * One set is apparently in Baba Amr, reported by LCC, 17 killed "after the withdrawal of the free Syrian army from Baba Amro," by "shelling" per VDC, a "massacre," per LCC, by "thugs ... break[ing] into houses, farming area, and orchards on the outskirts of the neighbourhood,"  or, per Syrian Shuhada, by "slit throat ... at the hands of security." Rebels still got the bodies.
 * Another, more vague pool, is largely noted later, "field executed" per VDC and labeled as "Massacre of the Sultanyieh." 11 martyrs among the larger pool have a variation of the Sultaniya massacre label - all those named Melhem, Suleiman, Ibrahim, Shaqhabi, Mussaitif, or Salem. Syrian Shuhada lists most of these but gives no details. LCC's dispatch made no mention of these victims or a massacre in Sultaniya.

The families of note appear in both sets; Note that the Sabouh family/clan/name took the biggest recorded loss, with a clear six martyrs, in the LCC/shelling half of the or perhaps tied with the Melhems. That family would be hit harder yet just a few days later, with a reported two-family massacre of 17 people in/from Baba Amr, named Sabouh, ranging in age from 85 down to 1. (see below: ) Those named Melhem, generally added late or not at all, seem to be from a prominent Alawite family in Homs with a member in Syria's national parliament, Wael al-Melhem. He's accused of running a Shabiha-type family militia that's behind at least some of the Homs massacres. See below,. As partly explained there, they too continued to take frequent martyrs before and after this event, which seems to be the single deadliest one for them. Suleiman too has a section below, empty now, and others may follow. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:03, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

The victim Radwan Bittar is one of the several men who died with no family members joining them - in Homs. As for his extended family elsewhere in Syria, it might be notable that a Mohammed Byttar (Syrian Shuhada entry - same Arabic name) died the same day in Latakia, under torture. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Implication for those less familiar - Latakia relatives suggests Bitar is quite likely an Alawite family, like the Melhems at least. Mr. Bitar is from the other set from them, the more public 17. If Alawites were singled out in both massacres, that would show the value of considering them together like we are.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It Grows
Just after I moved this to the front page, thinking I had it together, wondering whether to start a new spot for two side-massacres of march 1 - I find the "Sltaniya massacre" is larger. VDC has the missing Melhems, all three, plus a Baba Amr family of four (one of my two side-massacres), and some others (unidentified men x3) I had found listed at Syrian Shuhada for March 1. But these are given various dates later in the month, even though they're labeled part of this massacre and clearly were dead (or well predicted!) by the 1st. I had only checked the right days, not all time, for the label. Here are all 23 Homs martyrs with "Sultan" in the notes (the oldest entry is a coincidence and doesn't fit). Note "child-male" is inaccurate in spots. Analysis/digestion later, but I think this makes a total of 42-44 or even more, including now children and women (two each, I think). --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

So... there are some side victims listed at Syrian Shuhada named Hamid (personal names unknown, given as ...), three named from alraay family (also ...), as well as two toal unknowns, ..... - one male and recorded early (10111) and one female and numbered 12079. I've found the entry 12099 is March 26, The Hamids we'll skip for now, but the Alraays appear on the expanded VDC list 6 times as Raie/Raee, with listing errors. Khalid, wife, son, daughter - Abu Khalid, and Kholud, Wife of Abo Khalid al-Raee. All are dated March 26, which seems wrong. Shuhada listed them as March 1, but not on March 1 - they all have later numbers in the 12080 range when March 1 was in the 10100s. The unidentified female seems to be reported with the Alraays, to match the VDC report of six members. These were reported in a batch of updates around March 25/26, by entry 12099, March 26.

To the VDC expanded list - Besides the bottom entry, the three unidentified males near the top also do not fit here, from Kafr Aya. killed in Sultaniya separately in June, 2012. But this expansion verifies the al-Raays, deaths dated at time of inclusion (March 26) and the other Melhems (also dated March 26), plus there's yet another Melhem everyone missed somehow: Mohammad Hussain al-Melhim "Sultanieh Massacre. Documented in 28-06-2013" but given the right date, March 1. That will be seven Melhems, I think. Table update next. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:30, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Family Names
Apologies for all the small, jerky edits here. I've been a bit confused but it matters less as the pages start taking shape. Here's one thing, a helpful spot for cross-massacre and side information on family names that pop up as needing it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Some names will have sections (below) and some just listed (not so far below) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Abbas: Named as one of the local Alawite/Shabiha families whose bloodthirsty men carried out the April 10 Qaddour Family Massacre - several of the victims of the Suleiman Family Massacre a year earlier had the name Abbas mixed, apparently by intermarriage, with Suleiman. Otherwise, I haven't spotted Abbas, or watched for it, much. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Al-Abrash: a family targeted in December, 2011. See here
 * Akkra
 * Al-Alawi/Elewi
 * Al-Ali
 * Alloush: (Arabic: علوش )
 * Al-Assad
 * Bahader
 * Bitar
 * Chuirtani - (Arabic: شويرتاني) Eight men abducted and executed in December 2011
 * Al-Deib
 * Faour
 * Hana
 * Hassoun
 * Ibrahim: (Arabic: الابراهيم ) A common name, it seems to be easily the single-most common name - especially if from Tartous province - in the VDC list of "regime casualties" executed by rebels. Sometime at least a Christian name: Syrian Orthodox Bishop Mar Gregorios Yohanna Ibrahim was abducted by Islamists in April 2013 and still has not been released.
 * Al-Issa/Eissa
 * Jinyat
 * Jokhdar
 * Kanaan: (alt: Canaan) Appears on some victims of the Suleiman Family Massacre, April 2012
 * Khedr: wife of the Mohammed family killed 1-30-2012, and factory owner targeted in Houla, November 2011.
 * Masri
 * Al-Raay: (alt: Raie/Raee) (Arabic: الراعي )
 * Al-Rifaee: 20 unnamed family members killed in a massacre of 3-8-2012
 * Shahada: (Arabic: شحادة )
 * Shaar (alt? Shiar) (Arabic: شعار )
 * Tahhan 16 unnamed family members killed in a massacre of 3-8-2012
 * Yazagi: A prominent Christian name in Syria, sometime at least a Christian name: Greek Orthodox bishop Boulos al-Yazigi was abducted by Islamists in April 2013 and still has not been released. At least two Christian Yazagis were killed in the Marmarita Massacre of 8-17-2013.
 * Al-Zoubi

Melhem
This is a name I had started paying attention to. An LCC report from early December 2011 (see here) mentioned a factor in the tit-for-tat killings between the Sunni and Alawite communities of Homs "the armed group belonging to a member of Parliament and Wael Al - Melhem." I'm just now piecing together the rest of just why this name matters, suspecting a family militia (alleged if not real) to help explain all the dead Melhems I've been seeing. Was a good search. I was trying to take a break from digging up more massacres for the timeline, but one more popped out of this search (March 1, Sultaniya). --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Some snippets from a Google search for English sources: "#Homs province, 13-12-2013: This elderly lady, Jamila Melhem (a.k.a. Umm ..." - "Assembly member Wael Melhem called for improving health services in Homs ..." - "...after being delivered toxic materials from parliamentarian Wael Melhem..." There seemed to be little of relevance to my purpose coming through in English, so I tried Arabic, where Arabs speak more freely. It's a pain, I don't dig real deep. But here's enough, Google translated snippets: 29 March 2012, the Syrian Revolution
 * ...arrested system intellectuals opposed to his policies for years long ( 5 to 15 years ), such as Aref Dalila and ... and some of them made ​​their arrest during the revolution , and not without arena of activists Alawites participants in the revolution , most of whom had been arrested some of them did not come out so far , including Dr. Ali Melhem and Dr. Mansour Al-Ali, ...  ... the Alawites ( Mansoor Ali - Mahmoud Issa - Naif Salloum - Ali Melhem - destroyed Solomon ) 
 * (Dr. Ali Melhem seems to be the opposition go-to guy for Alawite issues, an anti-Assad Alawi who penned this widely reposted (Arabic) article: Alawites and Syrian Revolution. The rest of the family doesn't seem to have followed his "lead.") --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

29 March 2012, the Syrian Revolution
 * - Armed militias :
 * Where they were recruiting many of the militias months of the revolution, such as the militia led by Ramiz Akkari ( عكاري ) a well-known personalities of smuggling arms and drugs , has been used militia to suppress the demonstrations in Bab Sbaa , and there are many other militias led by people trusted by the system , such as organic Parliament Wael Melhem and Firas edging ( هدبة = Hadbah?) and these militias are funded directly by Rami Makhlouf .

The names of the perpetrators of the massacre of the grove (Karm al-Zaytoun - which massacre?) in Homs:
 * 22 Oct 2012 the Syrian Revolution
 * 1) Issa Hassan Ammar
 * 2) Tim Issa Hassan
 * 3) Ismail
 * 4) Ahmad and news (Abu continued)
 * 5) Haitham Darwish
 * 6) Abdul Aziz rox
 * 7) Ngor Mohammed and his brothers
 * 8) Wael Melhem and his brothers

So that's the set-up - Wael and his Alawite family-based militia is behind the slaughter of Sunnis in Homs. Next is where they get the pre-arranged and genocidal revenge. Some of it may have been extracted at Aqrab, Hama province, December 10, 2012 when rebels cleansed the Alawite district and blamed the "Shabiha" victims. A Melhem is blamed alongside the Jubeili men in this Arabic report.
 * But shabeeha and them (Abu Ali Ismail Jubeili) and (just Jubeili) and (Sort S (?) Melhem) and two others are beginning to realize the seriousness out people rushed to kill intermediaries year (Sheikh Ali Age and Sheikh Saado Hammash and retired Colonel Shaker Akash) and killed enthusiasts out by firing squad or throwing bombs Aledioah - as the novel, one of the survivors (or matter), and to shoot free Army elements who control the area and who have gone back to make room in the area for the people out safely and contentment. Then they blew up a gas cylinder ...

I'll scan my partial regime forces VDC list, but the site doesn't let you check by name. There are some on that side. As for martyrs, there are different spellings of the name except in Arabic (aside from errors). So I checked in that and found 66 entries with rightly-spelled ملحم in the name. Not all are even of a same-named family - some (like the oldest entry) have it as a first name. But most of these seem to be murdered members recorded here. Some samples:
 * Most recent: Dec. 12 '13: Jameleh Milhem AF Homs Hosen Castle Martyred by regime forces's gunfire from one of the checkpoints, called Em Faysal Marza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP2srAwLEa8
 * One in Hama, former military, apparent deserter, or abducted too long to show up for service, but not claimed as defector: Shadi Abdel Elah al-Molhim, civilian, AM, Hama: Lattamna. Date of death: 2013-07-27: Martyrdom location: (blank) Cause of Death: Detention - Torture. Rank: (blank). Notes: It is noteworthy that the martyr refused to attend the mandatory service in the regular army and was arrested a year and a half ago during one of the raids suffered by the city,documented on 27/09/2013 / / / date / inaccurate
 * Most recent Homs child: April 11, '13: Anas Mahmoud al-Moulhem Child-Male, Date of death: 2013-04-11. Martyrdom location: Homs: Qusair: Arjoun. Cause of Death: Shooting. Funeral Procession: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie87HOz-yi4
 * Rebel-filmed? Authentic Alawite rites? Real family participation? Public notice? I'm pessimistic here. --Caustic Logic (talk)

Notes: "Three bullets in the chest"  Funeral Procession http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2ybJnTB-vA&w=480&h=315 Video of the martyr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=redxJxaKa7o Same details: Ammar al-Molhem (photo, late addition) - Akram Daher al-Melhim (photo, the only one reported at the time of death).
 * Earliest Melhem martyrs: Issa Abdel Khaleq Al Melhem AM, civilian, age 65. From Daraa: Hara. Died 2011-11-18, by shooting. Notes: "killed while leaving the mosque after friday prayer" Video of the martyr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBWu0AethYE Video of the martyr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O77ncyutIV4 Video of the martyr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqIp8z2AB8E Video of the martyr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55Uk8U4ZAys
 * Essa Abdul Rahman Al-Melhem from Idlib, Ma'arat al-Nu'man, AM civilian, killed 2012-2-21.
 * March 1, 2012 - three at once in the Sulataniya Massacre: Izzo Hussain al-Melhim (photo) Baba Amr Date of death 2012-03-01 Cause of Death Field Execution. Notes: Sultanieh massacre. documented in 26/06/2013.

More suggestive groupings like that x3 incident suggest more of the same for the Melhems on that list of 66: March 26 two killed, May 15 x 2,  2 more June 9 and 10, July 23 x 2, Dec 15 x2, two more on Dec 28 and 29, and another 2 on March 27, 2013. (some details later) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Update: the 3-Melhm massacre is a seven-Melhem massacre. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Rebel Hilhems
Rebel fighter Jamil Nadim al-Milhem from Homs, FSA, killed April 9 in Appil village (Abel?) and others like Ibrahim Ahed al-Molhem and Abu Molham. A photographer Ibrahim Tahir al-Melhim killed by shelling same day and place as Jamil, in Appil. A photo shows the top of his head from nose up and recognizable, the rest being elsewhere. A rebel activist photographer? A prisoner: Mouahmmed Radwan Milhem, died of tuberculosis in Aleppo Central Prison, December 27. Another, Farhan Nawras al-Milhem from Homs, was imprisoned and tortured several months, then released, but then died of an illness. " it is suspected that they gave him a poisoned blood Inject that made his health deteriorate after his release then death."
 * Side note: Mohammad Rodwan Melhem died again, same place, same way, Jan. 3. Sometimes they list people twice (this is twice I've noticed it). It doesn't matter, just a little strange. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

So, as in so many other cases, we're left to wonder which type of Melhem is singled out in the Homs Massacres. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Hosin Castle Melhems
Of whichever persuasion a number of Milhems must live in Hosen (Krak Des Chevalier), west of Homs, because a lot of them from there have died. Dia'a Abdullah al-Milhem is among 8 listed FSA guys from Hosen Castle, presumably along with some others, killed March 31, 2013 in the Damascus area by an ambush. Mahmoud Melhim, also FSA, was killed a week earlier. Between both town names, there are another three civilian Melhem martyrs.
 * Hilal Ghasoub al-Milhem Adult Male - July 23, 2012 - shooting
 * Jameleh Milhem Adult female - December 12, 2013 - shooting. Martyred by regime forces's gunfire from one of the checkpoints, called Em Faysal Marza. Video of the martyr	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP2srAwLEa8
 * Fatmeh Melhem Adult female - Dec 24, 2013 - shelling - Martyred due to regime's army shelling, called Em Jamal Ramdan Shawesh

Also Bittar, and other names like Muslmani, appear prominently and might be of interest.

Darwish
This is a name I think will be trickier than some to map out usefully. It's either a common name or just common among those killed. I think it means the same as dervish, and seems to have victims all across Syria. Along with Melhems, there is a Haitham Darwish connected to Homs and blamed in part for "the massacre of the grove (Karm al-Zaytoun) in Homs source (Arabic)] There was a [Homs Massacres#Darwish Family Massacre|Darwish family - father, mother, son, and three daughters - massacred on/before Feb. 27, 2012. There is at least one Alawite Darwish family of some size that's from Latakia, losing several members dead or captive in the August, 2013 Latakia Massacres. And there are lots of Darwishes, men, soldiers, families and single children, who wind up dead in the LCC and VDC databses from various causes countrywide. It's not clear to me what real connections there are between all these but it's another name worth some space at least. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Sabouh
Sabouh =صبوح All w/Homs = 43. 6 say military - عسكري which seems to mean rebel or proper military, if the latter is listed here (I'm not sure). In these cases, it seems to mean rebel Sabouhs, of the non-Salafist, once-military/paramilitary, maybe-still, shady "FSA" defector-turned-corpse - two appear in the Dec. 1 and Aug. 3 entries below. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Arabic list: http://syrianshuhada.com/?a=la&p=lastname&v=صبوح
 * English: http://syrianshuhada.com/?lang=en&a=la&p=lastname&v=صبوح

From that, Homs Sabouh death dates of note, with number of martyrs: and Barya Ibrahim Sabouh, 76. 2013-03-27 -Field Execution - Notes: "A massacre made by the regime`s army in which tens were martyred and their bodies were mutilated, their house also has been burned."
 * Feb 6, 2012 = 1 (earliest)
 * Feb 21 = 3
 * March 1 = 6 ("Sultaniya Massacre")
 * March 6 = 17 (aged 1 to 85) Syrian Shuhada: "Neighborhood of Death: groves Baba Amr ... massacre that left 17 martyrs of Al Sabouh''
 * July 16 = 1 Samer Mohammed Soboh Notes: "displaced from Baba Amr neighborhood in Damascus, was shot dead by troops of the regular army"
 * Sept 26 (with two other men) Hassan Abdulkarim Sabouh (apparently in Jobar) Notes was executed on the ground by the forces of the Syrian army regulars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck9gz2qHrWQ (laid out with two other dead men, Waleed Shurbaji and Thier Shurbaji
 * Dec 1: apparent rebel fighter? Hossam Sabouh - military - عسكري Notes "from the Champions secret recording of the battalion Huda Brigade right of the people of Homs martyr was the bravest of people were following Brigades Huda (secret recording)" Shown with weapons, paramilitary, no clear colors or badges for either side, but clearly sold as a rebel guy.
 * March 27, 2013 = 3.
 * Syrian Shuhada record - three killed March 31: Wild ( برية ) Ibrahim Sabouh - Female, 76 -Gunshot wound. Abdulkadir Omar Sabouh - Male, 86 - Gunshot wound. Abdulkadir picnic ( عبدالقادر ) Sabouh: Female - 51 -Gunshot wound.
 * VDC record, two killed March 27: Abdelqader Omar Sabouh, 86 -
 * August 3 = 4. Mustafa Abdul-Karim Sabouh, Male, Military - سرى (Ysra?) Abdulwahab Sabouh, female - Razan Mustafa Soboh, Female, age 10 - Susan Mustafa Soboh, female, age 10. All killed "Because of the bombing." VDC lists these too. The father: Moustafa Abdulkareem Sabbouh, listed as FSA (photos may be consistent). Notes: "known as Abo Malek, martyred with his wife and two of his daughters due to shelling by regime's army." Martyrdom location - Lebanon: Ersal. Cause of Death: Warplane shelling

Suleiman
[Homs Massacres#Suleiman Family Massacre|Suleiman Family Massacre]] - perhaps about 17 apparently inter-related victims in Der Baalbeh with various mixes of family names Suleiman and Abbas (with Khalid, Kanaan, and others also appearing). It seems to have started with a regime shelling" massacre there on April 2 that killed a reported (vaguely) 13 people, with only two named. For whatever reason, these (same?) civilians were never found and reported as a massacre by the rebels, just found in small batches (in stables, after "weeks," up to May 1) and quielty noted in the VDC database. Syrian authorities had decried a massacre by terrorists who mutilated their victims, back on April 3. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Mando
This family is/will be mentioned prominently in at least two massacres covered here:
 * April 5 Baba Amr and Houla
 * what I'll call February 29, Sebil?

Further Mando Deaths (potentially related, not to be moved))
 * An adult male of the Mando family was among those 100+ civilian males killed in the Khalidiya Massacre by "shelling" on February 3/4.
 * Five Mendos: Three killed in two areas of Homs, Oct. 16 and 17, 2011. In June, 2012, a man in Homs, a woman in Douma, Damascus. The name does appear among martyrs, including rebel fighters, from Douma.
 * 32 martyrs named Mando, Mandou, and Mandow (plus 12 unrelated names, mostly an ill-fated Hamandoush one in Aleppo). From this:
 * Saber Mando was one of the few people killed by the alleged December 23, 2012 chemical attack in Homs. Another Mando, who'd been kidnapped, was executed eight days later.
 * Three Mandos, two women and a man, died in Zamalka from the Aug. 21 gas attack. Otherwise the name does not comes up connected with Zamalka.
 * I checked, especially in Zamalka, for other frequent Homs massacre names and saw few contenders. No broader pattern plus the area difference makes me I think this is a coincidence. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Two in Inshaat, Homs, killed by shelling on Oct. 10 and 22, 2013.
 * A man in Dablan, Homs blown up by an "explosive device" the other day, Dec. 13 2013.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Locations
The following map gives the range of districts in Homs as I could assemble it this early. The borders and labels are all per Wikimapia, some with ssome translation or shift to a spelling I'm using. I'm finding it useful enough to place things I run across, even with different spellings. Some borders left out for readability. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Color-coding: I felt compelled to color something, even though I don't have enough data yet to make some kind of demographic or protest-density infographic. Red clearly is the rebel hotbed, clearly visible. Purple = the big distruicts, somewhere ion which, the bigger massacres of February and March reportedly happened. Otherwise, blue = district as outlined on Wikimapia (note discontinuous al-Wa'er to the west) and green = outlying village, or green belt, depending. al-Sitteen street is a place cited where bodies were often dumped after murky assassinations. Different and more useful color-coding possible in time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Broader area map: The are shaded yellow and towns in it should be included here, I think. Surrounding areas with pages in green (Houla) orange (Qusayr) and red (Rastan). --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

District Demographics

 * ''Moved from Talk:Early December, 2011 Sectarian Killings in Homs, might be moved to the overall Homs page when that's created) --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Which district had what kinds of mixes of people at the outset seems hard to pin down. I have a few sources that had word hits I intend to check into. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Reuters, June 19, 2012
 * Alawite Dilemma in Homs (PDF)
 * Al-Arabiya, June 19, 2012: [http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/19/221503.html Alawite fortress and Sunni wasteland in Syria’s Homs
 * Syrian Observer
 * The neighborhoods of Akrama, Zahra’a, Nouzha and Assabil in Homs are considered loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime since most of their residents are Alawite, along with a small number of Sunni and Christian residents. This demographic mix predates the start of the uprising, and a lot of Sunni families left these neighborhoods due to sectarian tension and the precarious security situation. This has also led some Alawite residents to leave and settle in safer areas in the Homs countryside.
 * Fady, 30, an opposition media activist in Homs, says that the bombings he witnessed in Akrama and Zahra’a only constitute a tiny percentage of the regime attacks on the city’s opposition neighborhoods. ... the opposition’s shelling of the pro-regime ares is reactionary and follows a policy based on a balance of fear. “I am against this and I would have wished that some of the factions would not replicate the regime’s behavior,” he said.
 * ...the shelling that targets areas regarded as loyal to the regime affects families from several sects, and includes children who are clearly not thugs assisting the government’s security forces. “Dozens of locally made rockets have fallen on Akrama and Zahra’a and Nouzha on the pretext that they are loyal to the regime,” says Rabih, 25. He points to a house belonging to a Christian family in Akrama that was practically demolished after rockets landed on it. “A whole family was killed here, a father and mother and three children,” he said. “They had no investment in this war, they were not Alawites and were not against the revolution. Their only crime was that they were born in this neighborhood.” Hadeel, 32, a Sunni resident of the Akrama neighborhood, remembered the bombing of a school last May, and said she “hopes it never happens again.”
 * ...the shelling that targets areas regarded as loyal to the regime affects families from several sects, and includes children who are clearly not thugs assisting the government’s security forces. “Dozens of locally made rockets have fallen on Akrama and Zahra’a and Nouzha on the pretext that they are loyal to the regime,” says Rabih, 25. He points to a house belonging to a Christian family in Akrama that was practically demolished after rockets landed on it. “A whole family was killed here, a father and mother and three children,” he said. “They had no investment in this war, they were not Alawites and were not against the revolution. Their only crime was that they were born in this neighborhood.” Hadeel, 32, a Sunni resident of the Akrama neighborhood, remembered the bombing of a school last May, and said she “hopes it never happens again.”
 * ...the shelling that targets areas regarded as loyal to the regime affects families from several sects, and includes children who are clearly not thugs assisting the government’s security forces. “Dozens of locally made rockets have fallen on Akrama and Zahra’a and Nouzha on the pretext that they are loyal to the regime,” says Rabih, 25. He points to a house belonging to a Christian family in Akrama that was practically demolished after rockets landed on it. “A whole family was killed here, a father and mother and three children,” he said. “They had no investment in this war, they were not Alawites and were not against the revolution. Their only crime was that they were born in this neighborhood.” Hadeel, 32, a Sunni resident of the Akrama neighborhood, remembered the bombing of a school last May, and said she “hopes it never happens again.”


 * http://www.irinnews.org/report/98274/analysis-sectarian-violence-triggers-sunni-alawi-segregation-in-syria
 * http://www.npr.org/2012/02/08/146593302/sectarian-violence-rising-in-syria

One main issue is which are "Alawite" districts and which only had some Alawites. Christians and other target groups will matter. But really, this can't prove anything even if we had totally accurate demographic breakdowns. Each victims/family is its own and there can be some Sunnis in an Alawite area and vice-versa. But still, a rough guideline might help. I think this is best handled by district, for those that pop out with specifics. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Zahraa: Wikipedia, Siege of Homs states for April 15, 2012 "SANA also reported that terrorists killed 12 civilians in the Alawite, pro-Assad, neighborhood of al-Zahra in what seemed like an FSA attack on the neighborhood." Cited is this CNN report that says no such thing at the moment. The attack will have its section, but the demographics are widely reported the same way. this Wall Street Journal piece (by Sam Dagher) describes "Al- Zahra, an Alawite neighborhood in Homs." Syria Observer lists it as Alawite majority and loyalist, alongside Akrama, Nouzha (Nizha) and Assabil (Sebil, al-Sebil, as-Sebil). NYT June 10, 2012 has "There were also anti-Assad chants in Alawite neighborhoods like Zahra in Homs, like: “Bashar became a Sunni!” (Mr. Assad’s wife, Asma al-Akhras, comes from a prominent family of Sunni Muslims from Homs.)" (??) Al-Arabiya complains, also in June 2012, of Alawite fortress and Sunni wasteland in Syria’s Homs:
 * “We’re always nervous, but we will stay and survive,” says Abu Ali, a 60-year old sitting in his mini market in the Alawite neighborhood of Zahra. “It is the Sunni areas that are empty - at least the ones that asked for ‘freedom’,” he said, referring to districts that backed the mainly Sunni Muslim uprising against Assad. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Sebil: AKA as-Sabil, as Assabil it's listed alongside Zahraa, Akrama, and Nouzha as "considered loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime since most of their residents are Alawite, along with a small number of Sunni and Christian residents."

Army Presence in Homs
One of my goals here is to lay this timeline of atrocities out side-by-side with the timeline of military presence vs. pull-back in Homs. I've been vague on that. The Wikipedia page plus what I'm reading elsewhere help little. Altogether, so far, there's disagreement in the record as to when the army pulled out, how fully, and for how long. Locals in al-Bayada in late November at the time of the The Killing of Sari Saoud claim there was no army there, then, but that may have been a local pull-back of a case of posts chased away - there was a serious rebel offensive in the preceding days. It seems in early December Syria agreed to pull back from Homs, did so soon after, and by year's end activists and Arab League observers alike agreed there was at least no visual military presence there. Allegations of army this and army that, snipers, incursions, and of course distance shelling, continued all throughout.

Wikipedia's page does note: "On 23 January, a military officer at the main city hospital claimed to foreign journalists that rebels have taken control over two-thirds of the city with army casualties being at 4 to 5 dead and 10 to 50 wounded soldiers and security officials per day." Elsewhere on the page, it specifies "the killing of 10 Syrian Army soldiers at a checkpoint and the capture of 19 by the Free Syrian Army, during the night hours of 3 February and into the early hours of the following day," after which, "on the 30th anniversary of the Hama massacre, government forces began an artillery bombardment of Homs" that included whjat we call the Khalidiya Massacre. When the army allegedly unleashed artillery on Khalidiya on the night of February 3, citizens reported a massive rebel offensive there, blowing up homes and massacring hostages. SANA reported these cries:
 * “Had the army been here, our houses wouldn’t have been shelled and those innocent people wouldn’t have been killed,” said Da’d Darwish from Ikremah neighborhood, sobbing with fear and anger.
 * The citizens called on the Syrian army to enter the city of Homs to protect them from the crimes of the armed terrorist groups that have been killing and abducting citizens and shelling the houses and neighborhoods.

It's not clear just when they came back in on this popular request, but it was by the 28th of February they announced the full re-conquest of Baba Amr, well on the path to re-securing all of Homs. I don't believe they ever did agree to a pull-out of that type, ever again. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

When it Happens in Iraq...
From today's news from Iraq:
 * Iraq conflict: Sunni fighters 'control all of Fallujah' – BBC, 4 January 2014
 * ''On Tuesday, he (Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki) agreed to withdraw the army from towns and cities in Anbar province, to allow police to resume control of security.
 * ''But as soon as soldiers left their posts, militants aligned to al-Qaeda appeared in Ramadi, Fallujah and Tarmiya, storming police stations, freeing prisoners and seizing weapons.
 * ''The prime minister reversed his decision the next day, sending soldiers back to Anbar.
 * ''But on Thursday, militants in Ramadi and Fallujah raised black flags on buildings and used the loudspeakers of mosques to call on people to join their struggle and support a "peaceful takeover".

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Hm. This is a good example, if more accute than Homs.

Side-note on the side-note: U.S. Senator John McCain "blalasts Obama" over this insurgent takeover, against a government aligned with Syria. He calls it predictable. Consider our destabilization of Syria, it is.
 * Republican senators on Saturday blamed the Obama administration for Al Qaeda affiliates over-running parts of Iraq, including the city of Fallujah, which the United States secured before President Obama removed all U.S. forces from that country in 2011.

... at the same time it decided to overthrow the government next door, creating a vacuum that sucked in all contenders to replace it, like a modified al Qaeda in Iraq fired by doing Syria too. Sen. John McCain, Arizona, and Lindsey Graham, South Carolina, called the recent turn of events “as tragic as they were predictable” and suggested Obama misled Americans... McCain did not ... predicted the extremist takeover in Syria and pushed to keep them from being armed, learning from Obama's debacle destroying Libya:
 * Oct. 2011 Last Friday’s demonstrations (in Syria) called for such a no-fly zone. Last week, after the success of military intervention in Libya, the former Republican presidential candidate, John McCain, became the first mainstream US figure to canvass the idea. One suggestion is that foreign air power could enforce some sort of enclave inside Syria which would become the country’s “Benghazi,” a base for operations against the government.

about a month after the U.S. ambassador was murdered there by militants, in Benghazi. The lessons are clear. Maybe he should've said the country's "Fallujah."


 * John McCain (R., Ariz.). "It's just baffling to me how it's not in the U.S.'s interest to seek the removal of Bashar Assad." 


 * John McCain and Lindsey Graham, stopped short of endorsing direct US military involvement. "The United States doesn't have to directly ship weapons to the opposition, but there are a whole lot of things that can be done" through groups such as the Arab League, McCain told reporters on Sunday.

Also, private donors in the Gulf were more than willing to send weapons, and even helpfully pick the most serious fighting groups to get them. McCain himself met and vetted some of them in May, 2013 - sniffed out that they were sectarian Shia-kidnappers and got their funding cut off. If only people had listened to guys like him, all these radicals in Syria and Iraq (aka Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, to partner with the emirate of Barqa aka Benghazi) wouldn't have been as able to follow the predictable path to where we are. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:29, 5 January 2014 (UTC)