Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Debunked topics

We did it!

 * Mashable, July 17: Pro-Russian Rebel Commander: 'We Did Warn You — Do Not Fly in Our Sky' by Christopher Miller of Kyiv Post
 * Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin — who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov — boasted about shooting down a plane.
 * "We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote.
 * Thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane, Strelkov added that “a plane has just been downed somewhere around Torez, it lays there behind the 'Progress' mine,” referring to the mining town of some 80,000 people.
 * “And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down,” he continued. “The bird went down behind a slagheap, not in a residential district. So no peaceful people were injured,” Strelkov wrote, adding that there is also information about a Ukrainian military plane shot down.
 * However, Strelkov deleted the post when he found out it was actually a commercial jetliner carrying 295 innocent people — not a military aircraft.


 * Mixed early questions: Did he really post that and delete it, or was it just made up? Did they really shoot it down and if so, why? Malaysia has extra bad luck with paggenger jets, doesn't it? --Caustic Logic (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't. See here. If they shot it down it was an accident - that plane shouldn't have been there in the first place. More information needed. Terrible event. --CE (talk) 02:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone posted it. Strelkov is out in the fields. He has his a 9K35 Strela-10 but I do not think he has Facebook or even time to waste on social media. The way social media sites representing Strelkov or who ever operate, is they collect information from open sources and make their own synthesis. Some of Strelkov's comments come from video interviews or short video messages posted on Facebook. I do not think he writes anything. As for the relevance of the statement; someone saw a plane fall and thought it was a good thing. The announcement means nothing. We would have to hear it from the BUK operator. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks. Both saying the same thing - a "fan page" posted it, in a format they use for regular stuff, NOT stuff Strelkov says, and Miller reads that as Strellkov says, must know, deleted it himself, etc. Bogus. I left my thoughts at the forum too. Here's the main part though:
 * Possibly it could be some false-flaggers with their own appropriate missile launcher who snuck in, but presumably not, until there's some evidence presented. Most likely the separatists thought it was a legit (in their eyes) target and shot it down. 
 * The question for me will be in whether they were given some kind of extra reason to make that bad call, or if it was just their own dangerous ineptitude as it's being made out. Visually, if CE's graphic is correct, the new flight path sticks out as a possible clue - it just had to fly over that launcher that day, didn't it? I'd suggest keeping an eye on that and see if anything else starts to fall into place with it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Bloodless bodies – fake Facebook profiles?
From Voicesevas:
 * ''When reporters showed passports in turn, there were clearly visible to passenger data. Members of foreign forums are not lazy and had their own mini-investigation, during which it was found that people whose passports were shown to reporters, "really exist" - have their profiles in "Facebook". But - attention! - Profiles of these, quite seemingly independent people were registered at one time: 21-April-2013. These profiles are alike in that anything other than images downloaded daily check these pages do not.

Strelkov claims that most of the bodies seemed like they had been dead already before the crash: no blood or bleeding.

Putting all theories together à la Occam I get this: The plane suffered a pressure leak somewhere near Amsterdam, just like MH370. All the passengers and crew were killed from lack of oxigen. The plane flew east on autopilot and just by accident happened to fly over the BUK battery in Snezhnoye. This does not explain the fake FB profiles though. Maybe the plane that crashed in Snezhnoye was in fact MH370 that had been rehearsing for the false-flag mission all this time. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hm... I'd have to see that explained out before I could get this guy's back on this claim. Already I was thinking of an episode of the "V" re-make TV show where the visitors tricked the resistance into shooting down a shuttle full of innocents. But they were already dead, eaten, just skeletons with scrape marks on their bones. So, it sounds like a far-fetched TV show plot, if more realistic in that the bodies still have flesh, but ... who killed a planeload of people, or flew the plane? I guess remote control... they say Dr. Joep Lange of HIV research fame was one of the victims. Did someone snuff him out at the airport, or what?

The photo posted on Facebook by the alleged passenger Cor Pan at the gate is a hoax. The plane shown is 9M-MRC but the plane that left Amsterdam was 9M-MRD.

It seems however that the plane that crashed in Donetsk was 9M-MRO of MH370 fame! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Carmel by the Sea said... About the decomposed bodies from MH17:


 * http://www.prisonplanet.com/rebel-leader-says-many-of-the-dead-bodies-in-mh17-werent-fresh.html
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiHTGkG0zw
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvuIhO8hACA
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-J6tDSOgHk

The article at Prison Planet says "This story is only bizarre until you consider the fact that this situation might be staged." However complex a set-up one supposes, it remains bizarre even then. Not impossible, just bizarre. Consider that to remain consistent, they would need to start nearly 300 dead people of all kinds, sourced however. Most theorists presume the identities are made up, so "the real victims" just snuffed out a bit early doesn't work. Already decomposing, the corpses were drained of blood (or did it just evaporate?) and were loaded by someone onto an airliner in the Netherlands, maybe at a secret military facility. Someone leaned over each rotting body to fasten their seat belts for realism.

But a pilot supposedly flew it. What the hell was he thinking? Did they manage to hide the smell from him? Not likely. So he's thinking, perhaps: "I'm supposed to fly this plane full of dead bodies to Kuala Lumpur, for this big cash bonus? Pre-dead bodies, right over war-torn eastern Ukraine? Wait ... I'm going to survive this, right?" No living pilot would agree to that. So clearly he was killed, along with the co-pilot, and stuffed in the cockpit for an all-dead flight done by remote control. Was there blood only in the cockpit? It fits - as the last to die, there was no time to drain their blood. And so, that must be the amended theory and I still don't buy it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

A Different Explanation?
Elsewhere, new member KatKan mentioned living passengers winding up pretty blood-free for medical reasons shot of being pre-dead. In part:
 * ...Using my (very long ago) rescue triage training, I examined all the body photos for type of injury. The main findings were (a) almost no blood (as the separatist intercepted call rightly claimed) (b)a lot of legs at angles suggesting hip/pelvic fracture (a very common injury in air crashes to people wearing seat belts) and (c) all the bodies appear swollen (in first-day photos). We are thinking of what happened as a decompression, a low-pressure event. But that was preceded by the blast detonation of the missile just outside... a high-pressure event. The very high pressure shock wave compresses the blood vessels and severely damages the lungs. Blood pressure and heart rate go sky high trying to compensate. In 1/2 a second the blast wave is gone and they are in decompression.The heart can't adjust fast enough. The lack of blood flow makes the brain and liver swell up, too, so normal blood circulation cannot be re-established even if the heart recovers. The Lockerbie bomb, and various exploding fuel tank cases, were lower pressure explosions; sadly many would have survived those until ground/water impact.KatKan (talk) 20:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * So there is evidence of blast wave, not _just_ decompression alone? But no shrapnel wounds? --Chingachgook (talk) 21:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * If it matters, I haven't looked at may photos, but Time's photo, by Jerome Sessini of a man in his seat in the field has blood on his (broken, distended, maybe swollen) neck that landed there (probably after a post-crash cough, I thought) and ran down, as down is here. Could be his bloody hand slapping there too, but it's a normal seeming amount to me. Space below for rebuttal if it matters enough. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Machine gun shouldn't do a blast wave (of any serious medical consequence), only a missile, sufficiently close by, will. (Knowledge of how much pressure will start to cause this medical effect allows to estimate how close). No/little shrapnel from a missile nearby suggests most of shrapnel is directed away, not in. I cannot make a conclusion  looking at the photo (explanation appears very sound to me, I just don't have the expertise. Presumably people would not die from decompression alone prior to the impact, which indicates that something else was going on).  --Chingachgook (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Other points: I can see how decompression and crash injuries will cause swelling with broken fluid channels. It will also accelerate post-death bloating. Dead by impact, I still say they'd suffer at the last part and miss the first (aside from the first few seconds) (if alive when loaded, as we've been presuming) --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC) and Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)