Talk:Ukraine news

Other Talk Pages  Main Ukraine Talk Page... Minsk Protocol.... Ukraine War Casualties... Odessa massacre......  MH17 Crash

It is currently unclear which way things are heading, so it is simpler to try to keep up to news on one clean page, and try to have significant developments updated on main pages. (I am not sure I will keep to this format, but we will see)--Resup (talk) 12:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The objective way you write this stuff is absolutely fit for an article page, not a "Talk" page (edit:or more than one, feel free to expand as you see fit, this rolls as it rolls even though it is called ACLOSyria). You could do it chronologically without having to sign it all the time, like I did with the Kobane article. Anyway, thanks for your contributions, Resup, much appreciated. :o) --CE (talk) 18:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Chronicle
Our account is mostly kept on the main page.

Some Sources
TASS Chronicle-link to daily updates, (Russian),  TASS  - Ukraine (English)
 * easiest to search

Rusvesna-news (Russian),   rusvesna (English). ---  Opolchenie version of events.

TSN (Ukraine) (Ukrainian or Russian). Ukrainian version of events.

--Resup (talk) 14:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

June, 2015
Traditional Anglo-American friendship: Englishman Graham interviews American "Texas" in Donbas (in English)--Resup (talk) 21:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

A 'good' part of overall bad news on offensive weapons being authorized by the US Congress is that MANPADS are not on offer and that Azov is not to be supported. The latter is largely symbolic of course; e.g. if anti-tank and other modern Western weapons arrive to Ukraine, everybody will sneak in and get a share--including opolchenie (e.g. opolchenie captured one of the US  anti-battery radars ). Azov battalion (illustrated here) reacted angrily to the news that US House decided not to have them supported; posting a rambling message, telling them back in particular that   Ukraine is much older than USA and had a professional army from the times of (Kievan Rus') princes. Russian FOM said that other battalions in the National Guard are no better than Azov. --Resup (talk) 04:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

May,2015
25.5 Analytics piece by Strelkov. Basically expands on the starting line, "It seems that the military-political situation in the Donets Basin in the next few months will not change significantly. The region awaits a continuation of a  war of exhaustion without decisive results, in which the role of the DPR and LPR will remain largely nothing more than "the fate of the hostages." Options described include:(1) attack by UAF/continuation of warfare, largely for the sake of following the momentum/ re-directing dissent; (2) further disintegration and autonomization of Ukraine in the next 1-3 years; (3) full liberation of Ukraine--but Russia is not seen as being on that path (4) "frozen conflict" /competition in economic exhaustion. Presented at the meeting "Ukrainian crisis and global politics", St Petersburg, 15-17.5.15
 * El-Murid warns on 'lost' popular ideals and prevalence of oligarchical and political groups interests (too downbeat, but has a point) --Resup (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

25.5 Russia starts big airforce drill, voluntary notified OSCE about this (Russian) ; (AP News). 24.5 Previously unknown to me author/source, Roman Nesterenko,  "Journalist Pravda"  claims that their source in the UAF General Staff HQ says that Mozgovoi assassination is a part of  a broader plan to defeat Novorossia. This plan, code-named "Hammer", includes switching Russia's attention at another conflict (which may be Transdniester or Crimea), and  creating an internal 'civil war  within a civil war' between regular LPR/DPR forces and their 'wild'ones (Cossacks and Mozgovoi-types). In the meantime, heavy weapons are moved East, as well as foreign instructors, who will do intelligence and radio-electronic warfare. HQ Generals were ordered to study the operation "Lightning", in which Croatia regained control of the territory of Serbian Krajina in 1995. "Operation Hammer" is said to be based on this. It is unclear whether this is a real leak, or a result of imagination; but it has some actual match with things on the ground. So legitimate as a warning call. This publication was re-posted by Strelkov-info. --Resup (talk) 00:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * More on Transdniester potential troubles in the news...Vladimir Mukhin (opinion-Rusvesna), translated --Resup (talk) 21:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

23.5 Kiev appears prepared to put the blame on LPR for Mozgovoi murder. Kyiv post, 23.5: "Mozgovoi's disagreements with other leaders in his camp have been well-documented in recent months". Independent, 19.5: "Over the past six months, several of the most unwieldy rebel leaders have been removed – and many assume Mr Mozgovoi is next on the list. It is well known that Mr Mozgovoi is on difficult terms with the Kremlin-annointed leader of the Luhansk republic, Igor Plotnitsky" reprinted by Kiev post.
 * Anton Gerashenko in his facebook post blames "spetznaz GRU", quoting a 'radio intercept' inteerax.co.ua
 * --Resup (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Video from the scene. (He is said to be travelling in the van, looking like a repairman van). --Resup (talk) 22:09, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

18 May. Certain Eugenii Erofeev (same name as the name of captured 'Russian soldier' in the news) reports that he is safely home and unaware of his capture (source)-unclear whether this is the same person. Also linked to this report, press conference of people militia of LPR assistant commander, saying that Ukrainian side has crossed separation line and attacked a check point,  two soldiers wounded and captured. He brought their paperwork issued by LPR with him. --Resup (talk) 20:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently that is a different Erofeev; another one is shown on Ukrainian video, and his LPR militia paperwork is shown in the news --Resup (talk) 23:02, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

18 May. Anniversary of deportation of Crimean Tatars, mostly to to Uzbekistan, by Stalin on 18 May 1944, on the grounds of widespread collaboration with Nazi Germany occupying force (Crimea was liberated on 12 May 1944). They were not rehabilitated by Khrushev; and started to return to Crimea in 1989 with 'perestroika'. There was no free or dedicated land in Crimea, which lead to wide spread cases of illegal land capture without permits, and tensions/conflicts caused by this. (It is estimated that around 1300 hectares of land is in illegal use). Crimean Tatars were mostly against reintegration of Crimea with Russia in 2014 referendum (fear that land use will start to be enforced is one of the reason). Muslim leaders in Russia (including Kadyrov in Chechnia, --Chechens were deported by Stalin as well,-- and leaders in Tatarstan)--- tried to mend the situation at the time; but without clear-cut success. Around May 2014, Crimean Tatar leader Mustafa Gemilev was prevented from returning to Crimea. In May 2015, he called for formation of Crimean Tatar battalion, based in Ukrainian regions bordering Crimea, in preparation for eventual recapture of Crimea and policing Crimea after that (Source: Rusvesna. 18.05.15)

Historically, Crimean Tatars were allied with Ottoman Empire, raided southern regions of Russia, until Russia defeated Ottomans and captured Crimea in 1783; many Crimean Tatars emigrated to Turkey following that; while some leaders joined Russian nobility. --Resup (talk) 15:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

15-17 May. Conference in St Petersburg, "Ukrainian crisis and global politics" -Cassad report. Program with speakers; no clearly emerging coherent picture seems to be reported.

8 May International Forum of international solidarity "Anti-fascism, internationalism and solidarity." Lugansk, May 8, 2015. About 100 delegates, hosted by Mozgovoi. His report on this mostly stresses right for self-determination; also preserving freedoms and opposing lies (Mozgovoi-info). Other reports: (news-front info) , (Borotba), Cassad.
 * Forum participants agreed to create the International Committee of Solidarity with the Donbas "Fascism. Internationalism. Solidarity ", whose main objective will be the integration of political parties, public organizations and movements, independent activists who are ready to support the Donbass in the way of saving the world, opposition to fascism and build a socially just society. --Resup (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

March, 2015
11.3 Yurii Bereza "saved" Dnepropetrovsk regional office from 'terrorist attack"

February,2015
20.02 Is there going to be peace now, or is this a lull in fighting? I honestly have no idea. This war does not really make any sense, so than having peace does. Many are skeptical (that includes Strelkov, who keeps saying the same thing of war-is-unavoidable sort; as well as the Right Sector. Many others repeat what they hear on TV and MSM). No direct contact between Kiev and Novorossia, and suppression of any grassroot pro-peace sentiment makes this quite uphill; but not like impossible. --Resup (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Poshenko orders urgent measures to counter Russian info-war aggression, performed using foreing and domestic mass media. --Resup (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Father of Ukrainian soldier sentenced for 9 year for treason (allegedly helping Russian secret services) asks Zakharchenko to include his son in prisoners exchange. That young kid never in an actual battle yet. But he bought a wristwatch at a Moscow shop on Lubyanka over internet before his arrest (also was drafter and served in Donetsk, in 2012; and was attending Russian orthodox church). According to his father on the video, he was reported by his commander because of the watch purchase. The commander was than promoted to colonel, for uncovering dangerous enemy. (Sounds a bit gross but does not mean it's untrue; there are awful ways to get promoted, East or West). --Resup (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Curious Filatov open letter to Poroshenko, republished on Cassad. Basically tells Poroshenko to stop lying (about losses at Debaltsevo scale, in that instance). At the same time, making clear that considers Poroshenko a patriot, and that very unlikely anybody else would want to be in his shows now (Filatov is in Kolomoiskii team, which makes it interesting to hear. --Resup (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

15.02 Cassad on upcoming provocations: top photo, Russian artillery to the North East of Debaltsevo. I am not clear what is this supposed to show, but Cassad comments that this is somehow for the USA to accuse Russia of something. Next document, in Ukrainian, with SBY header, is ordering to inform all such mass media which is controlled by official and state structures to cover with great urgency any violations of ceasefire by terrorist LPR and DPR, or Russian regular forces. Than there is something about blocking/turning off worrisome/troublemaking terrorist web sites listed, rusvesna, RT, lifenews, et all --Resup (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Tried to check out DNR 24 site; --noted there Philip Ekoziants next end of the world prophecy, "The end of the World is speaking Ukrainian, but it is not his native tongue"  (russ. "Конец Света говорит сегодня по-украински...")  Recording is said to be 0.05 AM on February 10, an insider contacted him to tell that in 48 hours there will be some sort of calamity seen from Kharkov. Well we know already nothing happened in Khrarkov. But potentially serious provocation did happen in Kramatorsk. Ekoziants is a guy who appear to be in some sort of religious exalted state recording his messages, but sometimes he got things right, or may be indeed contacted by insiders from either side. So I do not believe that end-of-the-world-now-speaking-Hebrew-stuff, but not ignoring the existence of such messages altogether. --Resup (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

15.02 Yarosh: battalions of the Right Sector do not comply with the Minsk agreements. "Two of my battalion, well armed and equipped, continue to advance under Debaltseve and have serious military results, "- he wrote in a statement posted on the website the National Guard of Ukraine. -TASS --Resup (talk) 06:39, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yarosh publication on Ukrainian National Guard web site appeared shortly after midnight, with some strange peculiarities with dates and re-editing noted; eventually it  disappeared after causing media attention. --Resup (talk) 07:36, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

12.02 But DPR, LPR are said to refuse to sign the document coming from Normandy group (TASS)--so (if this stays as it is), where does it take things now ? Also Poroshenko is quoted saying that some conditions required by Russia are not acceptable. Sources say that final document is 80% agreed. Oh well --Resup (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Normandy group finished work after 14 hours of negotiations. While the contact group (with Zakharchenko and Plotniskii now present) started its work at another location in Minsk. Surkov moved there as well. Documents being prepared include ceasefire and beginning of withdrawal of heavy weapons in 2 days    TASS quoting Reuters, German DPA. --Resup (talk) 07:03, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

After 12 hours of negotiations, according to French delegation it is hoped that documents will be signed. Prior to that, Ukrainian sources say border control is remaining sticking point, with locals doing that proposed. Separation may be easier, e.g. broader  separation than agreed initially. RT gives a live stream. --Resup (talk) 05:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

11.02 This morning, a bus is hit by UAF shelling in Donetsk, 4  said to be killed, 9 wounded  (TASS), (rusvesna, videos).  --Resup (talk) 08:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like somebody getting desperate to try to stop progress in Minsk-and not opolchenie. No reason to stop, just agree to investigate (and stop nonsensical propaganda if possible, it's getting revolting) . --But some genuine disagreement on details may still remain; contact group will try another time in the morning, and depending on results, leaders may go to Minsk later in the day--Resup (talk) 08:45, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hollande and Merkel decided to go to Minsk TASS (quoting French sources) --Resup (talk) 08:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

10.02 Contact group meting ended, time of another meeting is not known. Pushilin said that "it is too early" to start a ceasefire from tomorrow, "we passed our offers to the Contact Group, and we will wait for their response" RIA Novosti--Resup (talk) 22:11, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Poroshenko says that ATO headquarters in Kramatorsk were shelled with MLRS (Uragan or Smerch)  (rusvesna report, videos). Initial Ukrainian reports tell about airport attacked from the air. First video: presenter says it is 12.40 pm on 10 February (later says 1 pm); that there was a tank fire before camera was turned on; that he describes what we see and hear (he thinks it is a fight at the airport, or strong shelling at the airport). Cassad tells that witnesses talked about a fight at the airport. Apparently there were two MLRS salvos, one hit airport, another residential area. 15 killed reported in Ukrainian sources Eastern part of the city hit, Дворцовая,  Шкадинова, street, and  Kramatorsk  Дом связи ('telecom house")
 * DPR denied (rusvesna -quoting Ukrainian source) that they shelled Kramatorsk. Un-exploded missiles, steep angles (suggesting close distance) noted, regarding residential visuals.
 * A missile landed 30 m from OSCE SMM mission, did not explode. Time was 12:33. RIA Novosti-photos. OSCE report says Smerch (or Tornado) fired from SSE, killed 7 civilians, wounded 26 including 5 children. Street locations provided --Resup (talk) 19:28, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * DPR says at present consider this to be provocation by UAF; commission needs to look at all facts. Video from the airport: cluster munitions, 32 UAF wounded, but does not appear to be a very severe hit/causalities. Smerch with cluster warhead range of 70 km, opolchenie at Gorlovka will be some 75 km away, a bit over Smerch range. If it can get there at all, it has to be fired close to 45 degrees, while on most photos it is maybe 70-80 degrees. Opochenie said to capture some Uragans, but I do not remember news that they have or use Smerch--Resup (talk) 23:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Poro went to Kramatorsk, made propaganda speech how Russians are killing civilians in totally peaceful city with cluster munitions, brought Bernard Levy with him for more effect. --Resup (talk) 08:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Anonymous source claimed to RIA novosti that OSCE, Germany, France insist that Russia take a control function over a demilitarized area in Donbas (rusvesna quoting RIA novosti) (not confirmed by official sources) --Resup (talk) 16:48, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Ukraine attacks near Mariupol, Telmanovo severely shelled by Ukraine, Turchinov said to be there to provide leadership. According to opolchenie, Azov battalion entered neutral villages, installed and photographed near Ukrainian flags; attempts to attack opolchenie check points were repelled (rusvesna). Ukrainian sources,

08.02 TASS referring to le Figaro: negotiations are stalled not by fundamental issues such as sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, but by items such as composition of peacekeeping force. Kiev is categorically opposed to participation of Russian military in such monitoring, or to military from (Russian -lead) Collective Security Treaty Organization. While OSCE monitors were criticized by Donbas opolchenie. Another item of serious disagreements is defining Donbas border line, since opolchenie advanced West since last September.

Could not quicly locate this in le Figaro but have this in place: "Mais outre l'aspect pratique d'un sommet quadripartite, l' «esprit de Normandie» symbolise aussi la volonté d'une diplomatie active et réaliste, ou le duo franco-allemand tente de jouer les médiateurs entre Kiev et le Kremlin, là où les Etats-Unis sont dans la menace". le Figaro. --Resup (talk) 23:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

07.02 Western Nations Split on Arming Kiev

President at the meeting with Ukrainian diaspora in Munich: Ukraine will fight and win Hollande broadcast on RT --Resup (talk) 18:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

02.02. Opolchenie update, TASS update.

2015 Nikishino taken by NAF

Ukrainian Tochka U on the ground--Resup (talk) 12:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Mobilization planned by Novorossia in some 10 days, up to 100 thousand may be called for duty (Cassad) --Resup (talk) 12:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Maps
map --nearby Debaltsevo, 02.02.2015 (Cassad)

Opinions
Korban (Kolomoiskii ex-administration man) interview. On Poroshenko: quoting Dostoevsky-google translate: "Power is given only to those who dare to bend over and take it." 'Obviously, Poroshenko leaned over and took power'. More on Poroshenko: despite having diplomatic skills/experience, have difficulty listening or learning from others' mistakes--insisting on making his own. Gaining power, became "bronzed" (resembling a bronze monument)--detached, paying a lot of attention to formal ceremonies, difficult to contact on urgent business. Still the most powerful and rich person in top echelons. Doubts that he will be reelected. estimates that current political union will last till Spring 2016. Korban advocates hiring private military instead of current ineffective military machine; claims that he advised against full scale heavy armor war in Summer 2014, using diplomacy and police action instead--Resup (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

"Nazis Triumph Over Communists in Ukraine"- Leonid Bershidsky, bloombergview.com, 19.05.2015 --Resup (talk) 12:11, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Markov-Rusvesna (+Cassad follow-up) Neo Nazi gangs chaos becomes a thing from the past, Ukraine quickly becomes a stronger police state, total propaganda control, centralized military command.... --Resup (talk) 14:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Curious clash of attitudes Cassad vs Sharii. Sharii (a Kievan): "Kiev died", not having a stronger reaction to Buzina murder in particular. Was good, turned bad. Cassad (from Sevastopol): Ukraine is not the same as Ukrainian Republic of the USSR; bad apple-anti-Russian project, created by chaos (Provisional Government of 1917, and collapse of the USSR in 1991).

Arkady Molev traveler's account; --lives in Israel. Causing mayhem in commentary part on Fort Russ. Russian version commentary is divided, staying civil. --Resup (talk) 13:25, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Sanctions
Sanctions were introduced by EU and by Canada. EU sanctions include many mainstream figures in LPR and DPR, including Motorola and Givi. Rationale for doing this (and--again!--- right after a step forward in Minsk) is lost on me.
 * Justice. This is not justified at all. For example Motorola and Givi were storming airport which by Minsk is going to DPR anyway. Liberating airport helped reduce civilian casualties in Donetsk to Ukrainian army shelling. So the justification of sanctioning them now is ---what? (Singer Kobzon on Russia's side--what did he do? Sang a song in Donetsk--and so ?. Something like that often happens; e.g.  did not Jane Fonda go to Vietnam?)
 * Effect in the East. On practical side, close to none. Well, may be Kobzon will not get cancer treatment in Europe, but this is about it. To be sure, combined effect of economy (oil prices, exchange rates) and sanctions of course are felt and causing  hardship, but this latest addition does not change anything here. On political side, it will increase anti-Western sentiment,  will give advantage to pro-Putin players, and will make an idea of cooperation with the West rather unpopular. Gives easy ammunition against pro-Western figures, by listing them in the 5 column, with broad popular support for doing that. Whatever economic effect of sanctions is likely to be shifted on those least deserving it.
 * Effect in the West. No idea. An alternative of actually doing something meaningful, and getting reelected--maintaining an appearance of orderly development in order to preserve positions of power and wealth? With human rights added on top for decoration? An alternative of sending weapons? (But this is silly, -why to do a cover up? Weapons may come from somewhere anyway as this is not tightly related to economic sanctions)
 * East-West relations. Very harmful; cannot really expect trust and cooperation and impose sanctions at the same time; no matter what diplomats say, it just does not work like that. There are obviously major unsolved issues elsewhere; and this does not help cooperation in addressing them at all. --Resup (talk) 14:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Fakes
(A version of this story appeared on Russian mainstream TV, and on social media (e.g.here)  in several languages): Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt: Since August this is the highest concentration of Russian air defense systems in eastern Ukraine. (C серпня це найвища концентрація російських систем ППО на сході України-ukr). Repeated in Ukrainian press. Buk M2 photograph from MAKS exhibition in Moscow, 2013 used (India times report, August 31, 2013). This AP image was also used after MH17 crash, 17 July 2014. Another publication 18 July 2014. --Resup (talk) 14:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

History of Ukraine
Oles' Buzina, Russian with English captions (hit cc to see captions)--very engaging in the original; maybe harder with captions.
 * 00:06 - How and when names Little Russia and New Russia appeared?
 * 26:21 - How the modern Ukraine was created?
 * 47:44 - Civil wars in Ukraine
 * 56:52 - Donetsk-Krivoy Rog republic
 * --Resup (talk) 13:45, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * As a reference to terminology, Vladimir Dal' -disappeared definition of khokhol (ХОХОЛ--second entry). (Quite curious examples of use did he put in there). Initially khokol may be a reference to Cossack (Mohawk-like) hairpiece, illustrated  e.g. here, which some link with an instrument of salvation. Currently not used, as it is considered offensive.
 * A curious Dutch map of 1641, titled 'Russia, commonly known as Moscovia'. -There is a battle of maps with the other side also presenting something  --Resup (talk) 04:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Ukraine
"The group "Okean Elzy" (Ocean of Elza) presented video clip "Not Your War", which was attended by a group of fans. The main idea of the video is a random selection between dark and light side, so visual range is divided into white and black. According to Vakarchuk, the theme song is not easy to confess even to himself. After all, Ukrainian, for centuries constantly imposed from outside someone's thoughts, actions and even war. Now is the time to take responsibility and initiative" (article). --Resup (talk) 18:02, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * You're in the dawn; sun and smoke.
 * Few people know what will happen with them.
 * What will happen tomorrow is on youngs' minds.
 * Someone hope and someone fear.
 * Kalina tree branches are wilted.
 * Mom, whom we prayed?
 * How many else of your children will it take,
 * of your children, - not your war


 * Became parents, sons, daughters
 * All saw colorful dreams
 * And are kissing the hand of falsehood.      (брехня (ukr) "dog bark" (russ/ukr) lie, nonsense, bullshit (engl.)
 * For quiet nights gave up the days.


 * (followed by variations of the theme)


 * Auto-translate said "not your wine." But I found this in English, from a French fan's blog. The name means ocean of feelings/emotion? Cool. Powerful song. Even this is not very specific which war they refer to, but presumably the one in Ukraine now. They say the one that is "yours" is the internal one to ... change things, I guess. Blog says "The main idea of the video is to represent the wait-and-see approach of people that do not take initiatives on their own... acting as flipping again and again a coin with "lucky-not lucky" sides. At the end of the video, the coin disappears: the conclusion is that the community has always a chance to make things change: everything is in its own hands!" Actually the coin doesn't disappear that I saw, but the message is probably that anyway. (?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:51, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, this will get more interesting when there's a battle of bands, some neo-Fascist band countering this. Will be ugly and they'll lose. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:51, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * This band was headlining an Azov Battalion benefit concert last autumn. Pretty sure that's the best they can come up with... (FTR, as it happens I listened to Leningrad Cowboys & the Alexandrov Red Army Ensemble performing "Sweet Home Alabama" when clicking on this "recent change" ;o)) --CE (talk) 09:31, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Songs space in Ukraine, Russia is as complicated as events themselves; there would be a song for everything; those are partial selections giving some idea. Ocean Elzy appears to be something unseen so far (and giving some hope, I'd say ...) --Resup (talk) 07:10, 29 April 2015 (UTC)