Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Sources

Photos
There are many different sources for good quality images, but this gallery is the best I've seen yet. Several pages of several pictures each, in high resolution with captions saying where filmed and by whom ("Sokoto" comes up for Irbin scenes, perhaps a sub-area). --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Some images to highlight, possible important clues, from page 8 and 9 at the above link: photography - Mohammed Al-Abdullah, and possibly very useful. There we can see bodies in a certain room I've been seeing in videos, and it's famous, the really white room, but it's not stated here. I should know it (Zamalka?). Wherever it is, this is a/the spot where serious gassing occurred, or where the victims of it wound up. Others look gassed or suffocated - these were hit with bad-ass chemicals. The details I will be taking to the victims analysis page.--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The large white room is shown in the video footage on the Kafr Batna Coordination Committee YouTube channel, starting with outside views and moving in. Covered in Dead girls in morgue below. I have assumed this would be in Kafr Batna, but it could in fact be in Zamalka, as most of the victims were there. The outside footage should enable us to identify the building. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the place, like I half decided before sleep. Not just the room but the people in the left side and far corner. Will look for location later, to be added here.--Caustic Logic (talk) 22:20, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Test link for one of those. Does this work? This little boy - plus at least two other victims here (Petri, you uploaded a picture I'm guessing is one of them) - also have these strange little wounds under their chins. What the hell can that mean? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * U.S. accuses Assad over Syrian chemical strike: Pressure grows on West to arm rebels after massacre of 1,700 – Daily Mail, 22 August 2013


 * Erbin News on Demotix

August 21

 * Suspiciously swift opposition activist blog, bound to have accusations, news, clues, etc: http://www.facebook.com/ChemicalMassacre21082013 --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Reddit page with collection of sources posted early on before it made the rounds (14 hours before my post here which means around 2-3 AM UTC). First sentence: "I've spoken with the Associated Press, BBC and CNN; BBC and AP are here on this thread, using it to source information for a possible story." --CE (talk) 16:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Al Arabiya seems to have been one of the first big ones to pick it up - First tweet announcing 280 dead here at 5:35 AM UTC. In the comments already the reddit guy linking to the thread above. 5:59 AM UTC, a second tweet with now 500 dead. Around an hour later, the first version of an article is announced. That article still says 500 in the link but now headlines 1300 dead. It's a patchwork of all kinds of "reactions" and "statements" thanks to apparently many edits. --CE (talk) 11:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Activists say more than 200 killed in gas attack near Damascus – Reuters, Aug 21, 2013 6:05am EDT
 * ''Activists said rockets with chemical agents hit the Damascus suburbs of Ain Tarma, Zamalka and Jobar before dawn.
 * A nurse at Douma Emergency Collection facility, Bayan Baker, said the death toll, as collated from medical centers in the suburbs east of Damascus, was 213.
 * ''"Many of the casualties are women and children. They arrived with their pupil dilated, cold limbs and foam in their mouths. The doctors say these are typical symptoms of nerve gas victims," the nurse said.'


 * SOHR Facebook, statement
 * This takes as a given this a "regime" crime, based simply on reports (words) from people whose job it is to always say that. "The SOHR repeats the urgent call on the entire international community, in all its institutions, to put pressure on the Syrian regime to cease its attack on these areas, and to alleviate the ordinary civilians from the deadly consequences of its war." Some good comments, one by me anyway.
 * When will the SOHR explain how it knows this massacre was "committed by the regime?" I'm presuming some toxic gasses were widely used in this rebel-infested area. As the timing and nature of this planned attack only suit the rebel cause, not the government's, the leap to the less logical presumption requires some explanation. Is it just that rebels said it was the other side? That's my suspicion. I'm presuming about 99% of rebels are innocent of this, but did they check with the local units of ISIS, al-Nusra, etc. - known to possess and use CW - and honestly rule out all provocateurs with an interest in false-flagging themselves into power? Why on earth would do that? So it must be the regime machine-gunning itself in the foot, gassing more people than ever just ten feet from the "inspectors" (investigators, actually) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Chemical weapon claims: Two Syrian activists’ diverging viewpoints – France24, August 22, 2013
 * Early on Wednesday, several rebel-held villages in the eastern suburbs of Damascus were heavily bombarded by the Syrian army. Activists from this village have accused the Syrian regime of using chemical weapons during this operation.
 * Good source and add, thanks. Worth a ref add. Half-skeptical, half-telling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Syria sarin claims unlikely to spur US military action – Al Jazeera, August 22, 2013
 * Syria: Witnesses Describe Alleged Chemical Attacks –  Government Should Give UN Investigators Immediate Access – HRW, August 21, 2013
 * Images of Death in Syria, but No Proof of Chemical Attack – BEN HUBBARD and HWAIDA SAAD, New York Times, August 21, 2013

Skeptical Sources

 * Penny for Your Thoughts (truth exists; only lies are invented): "Chemical attack" conveniently staged and timed in Syria. Planned Staged Psy-op.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Hot Air.com: Syrian rebels claim Assad used chemical weapons, over 1000 dead - but skepticism is still allowed. Some reasonable starter questions here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Images of Death in Syria, but No Proof of Chemical Attack, NYT, August 21, 2013. This is a much more level-headed article than I would have expected from the NYT so credit where credit is due and I put it here under "skeptical sources". Also a good summary. Interesting detail:
 * At least one photograph posted on Facebook by an activist showed what looked like a makeshift rocket. But loyalist militias and Hezbollah have both fired makeshift rockets at rebel positions in this war, and could presumably be suspects for any attacks with improvised rockets on rebel-controlled neighborhoods.
 * --CE (talk) 13:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Expert casts doubt on Syria chemical weapons footage – Euronews, 21 August, 2013 (video)
 * The evidence of chemical attack seems compelling – but remember - there’s a propaganda war on – Patrick Cockburn / The Independent, 21 August 2013
 * Syria: Chemical Attack in Ghouta 'an Accident Caused by Free Syrian Army' – GIANLUCA MEZZOFIORE / International Business Times, August 21, 2013
 * He added that the idea that the FSA is single and unified is "a myth," because "there are different factions and something like that could be a win/win for them: launch the attack and raise amount of profile of their cause by the UN."
 * Sorry, timing, nature, etc. considered, accident is almost as stupid as the official story. Well, at about the mid-point between the extremes of plausibility we're faced with. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Kris Janssen, Media Work Group Syria, Aug 28: Another false flag operation, history repeating itself --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

"Rebels did it"
Obama seems to be accusing al Qaeda for the attack:
 * Syrian Activist on Ghouta Attack: "I Haven’t Seen Such Death in My Whole Life" – DemocracyNow!, August 23, 2013
 * P.S. – Why did the New York Times chose to publish this today? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Syria’s Al-Ghouta Crime: The Real Story of Liwaa al-Islam Chemical Rockets – Islamic Invitation Turkey, 23 August 2013 (Evidently translated from Arabic, no source given.)
 * Why were the Europeans and Americans hesitant to take an action against Syria in the United Nations Security Council, in the alleged Syrian use of chemical weapons in Ghouta? Arab sources suggest that the US and Western missions had received the real story of chemical weapons. The story wasn’t officially distributed, but it is supported by Russian documents and satellite images of the battlefield, and Ghouta.
 * The images showed that the rockets were launched from Duma at 1:35 on Wednesday.


 * Bashar Ja’afari encounters Christiane Amanpour on CNN (17 min "Interview", Sep 3) Notice how she opens the piece with the triumphant question "you are aware that we are going to bomb your country back to the stone age, right?" (slightly paraphrased). This person is scum, as mad as narcissistic, but very much in line with the apparently batshit crazy gang "leading" things over the pond. --CE (talk) 18:25, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Assad Advisor Bouthaina Shaaban on Sky News, Sep 4. She tells the "the gassed kids are from Latakia" version. --CE (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Facebook pages

 * مجزرة الكيماوي Chemical Massacre Syria – 4,205 likes
 * Chemical Massacre in Syria - Massacre Chimique en Syrie – 3,141 likes
 * AQ PRESS (Al Queda Press Office) – 280 likes (This is not really related, but I will save the link here, as liking it on Facebook may not be a good idea. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC))
 * Syria Care Indonesia

Victims

 * Syria: Thousands suffering neurotoxic symptoms treated in hospitals supported by MSF – Médecins Sans Frontières, 24 August 2013
 * Three hospitals in Syria's Damascus governorate that are supported by the international medical humanitarian organisation Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) have reported to MSF that they received approximately 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in less than three hours on the morning of Wednesday, August 21, 2013. Of those patients, 355 reportedly died.
 * “Medical staff working in these facilities provided detailed information to MSF doctors regarding large numbers of patients arriving with symptoms including convulsions, excess saliva, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision and respiratory distress,” said Dr Bart Janssens, MSF director of operations.
 * Patients were treated using MSF-supplied atropine, a drug used to treat neurotoxic symptoms. MSF is now trying to replenish the facilities’ empty stocks and provide additional medical supplies and guidance.
 * “MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterised by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”

If 355 died at the hospital, it is conceivable there are another 1000 dead at the attack sites. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds compelling, but ... how do you get that many exposed, really? They have no people of their own -"reported symptoms," like the rest of us are getting - rebel doctor reports. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

2011

 * "Military Intervention In Syria", US Training "Rebels" Since 2011 And The Complete Grand Plan - The March 2012 Leak – Stratfor via Wikileaks
 * They dont believe air intervention would happen unless there was enough media attention on a massacre, like the Ghadafi move against Benghazi.

September 2013

 * Syria Chemical Attack Evidence Leaves Doubts In Public Opinion – ZEINA KARAM and KIMBERLY DOZIER / AP, 09/08/2013

Feinstein Package
The Feinstein Package is a collection of YouTube videos used by the Obama administration as evidence of a sarin attack. The videos have been collect by Sen. Diane Feinstein into a continuous video strip and placed on the US Senate video server here: The format is absolutely awful. There does not seem to be any way of viewing the content but in full-screen bode. There is no title page to link. If you open the link, you are greeted with a broadside of massacre porn flying on your face.
 * https://www.senate.gov/isvp/?type=arch&comm=intel&filename=intel090613

I do not know if anyone has created a YouTube playlist of the Feinstein Package. One could be created based on these links. Some are missing, but most likely duplicates could be found on-line. Most of the ones hereare not original uploads; SHAMSNN never posts original material. One investigative task would be to locate the originals for these videos. (Source: Denis R. O’Brien) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) Jawbar • ~ 04:50 am local • http://youtu.be/keXF8lgu_Eg [Taken down] (The url seems to be wrong.)
 * 2) Ghutah • ~ 07:00 am local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/-QLxJn8TEsk
 * 3) Duma  • ~ 12:30 pm local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/Op4a7heaRY
 * 4) Darayya • ~10:00 am local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/pRi1ge7qaXU
 * 5) Ghutah • ~ Noon local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/MhgHqE8H_Lc
 * 6) Ayn Tarma • ~05:15 am local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/2tQnQvYjNYQ
 * 7) Kafr Batna • ~03:00 pm local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/txOTy7XbsRg
 * 8) Mu’addamiya • ~ 05:00 pm local • http://youtu.be/gR0f9hSIRqg [Taken down]
 * 9) Mulayhah • ~ 10:00 am local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/29eadNcm15k
 * 10) Kafr Batna • ~ 01:45 pm local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/S7LGH4ykXYM
 * 11) Kafr Batna • ~ 09:00 am local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/YO7jQPX5jPA
 * 12) Duma • ~ 01:00 pm local • SHAMSNN • http://youtu.be/Eulr23wzym4
 * 13) Ghutah • ~ 04:00 am local • MrERBEEN2011 • http://youtu.be/JqVeCVovF58

Here is CNN's broadcast of the videos: Disturbing Videos Show Effects of Syria's Alleged Chemical Attack -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Dead animals

 * The results of Ghouta alleged chemical attack in Syria – August 23rd, 2013 by Erbin News
 * Hundreds of dead cats and dogs are removed from the streets of Damascus suburb hit by nerve gas attack – DAMIEN GAYLE, Daily Mail, 23 August 2013