Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Debunked topics

We did it!

 * Mashable, July 17: Pro-Russian Rebel Commander: 'We Did Warn You — Do Not Fly in Our Sky' by Christopher Miller of Kyiv Post
 * Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin — who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov — boasted about shooting down a plane.
 * "We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote.
 * Thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane, Strelkov added that “a plane has just been downed somewhere around Torez, it lays there behind the 'Progress' mine,” referring to the mining town of some 80,000 people.
 * “And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down,” he continued. “The bird went down behind a slagheap, not in a residential district. So no peaceful people were injured,” Strelkov wrote, adding that there is also information about a Ukrainian military plane shot down.
 * However, Strelkov deleted the post when he found out it was actually a commercial jetliner carrying 295 innocent people — not a military aircraft.


 * Mixed early questions: Did he really post that and delete it, or was it just made up? Did they really shoot it down and if so, why? Malaysia has extra bad luck with paggenger jets, doesn't it? --Caustic Logic (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't. See here. If they shot it down it was an accident - that plane shouldn't have been there in the first place. More information needed. Terrible event. --CE (talk) 02:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone posted it. Strelkov is out in the fields. He has his a 9K35 Strela-10 but I do not think he has Facebook or even time to waste on social media. The way social media sites representing Strelkov or who ever operate, is they collect information from open sources and make their own synthesis. Some of Strelkov's comments come from video interviews or short video messages posted on Facebook. I do not think he writes anything. As for the relevance of the statement; someone saw a plane fall and thought it was a good thing. The announcement means nothing. We would have to hear it from the BUK operator. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks. Both saying the same thing - a "fan page" posted it, in a format they use for regular stuff, NOT stuff Strelkov says, and Miller reads that as Strellkov says, must know, deleted it himself, etc. Bogus. I left my thoughts at the forum too. Here's the main part though:
 * Possibly it could be some false-flaggers with their own appropriate missile launcher who snuck in, but presumably not, until there's some evidence presented. Most likely the separatists thought it was a legit (in their eyes) target and shot it down. 
 * The question for me will be in whether they were given some kind of extra reason to make that bad call, or if it was just their own dangerous ineptitude as it's being made out. Visually, if CE's graphic is correct, the new flight path sticks out as a possible clue - it just had to fly over that launcher that day, didn't it? I'd suggest keeping an eye on that and see if anything else starts to fall into place with it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Bloodless bodies – fake Facebook profiles?
From Voicesevas:
 * ''When reporters showed passports in turn, there were clearly visible to passenger data. Members of foreign forums are not lazy and had their own mini-investigation, during which it was found that people whose passports were shown to reporters, "really exist" - have their profiles in "Facebook". But - attention! - Profiles of these, quite seemingly independent people were registered at one time: 21-April-2013. These profiles are alike in that anything other than images downloaded daily check these pages do not.

Strelkov claims that most of the bodies seemed like they had been dead already before the crash: no blood or bleeding.

Putting all theories together à la Occam I get this: The plane suffered a pressure leak somewhere near Amsterdam, just like MH370. All the passengers and crew were killed from lack of oxigen. The plane flew east on autopilot and just by accident happened to fly over the BUK battery in Snezhnoye. This does not explain the fake FB profiles though. Maybe the plane that crashed in Snezhnoye was in fact MH370 that had been rehearsing for the false-flag mission all this time. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hm... I'd have to see that explained out before I could get this guy's back on this claim. Already I was thinking of an episode of the "V" re-make TV show where the visitors tricked the resistance into shooting down a shuttle full of innocents. But they were already dead, eaten, just skeletons with scrape marks on their bones. So, it sounds like a far-fetched TV show plot, if more realistic in that the bodies still have flesh, but ... who killed a planeload of people, or flew the plane? I guess remote control... they say Dr. Joep Lange of HIV research fame was one of the victims. Did someone snuff him out at the airport, or what?

The photo posted on Facebook by the alleged passenger Cor Pan at the gate is a hoax. The plane shown is 9M-MRC but the plane that left Amsterdam was 9M-MRD.

It seems however that the plane that crashed in Donetsk was 9M-MRO of MH370 fame! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Carmel by the Sea said... About the decomposed bodies from MH17:


 * http://www.prisonplanet.com/rebel-leader-says-many-of-the-dead-bodies-in-mh17-werent-fresh.html
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiHTGkG0zw
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvuIhO8hACA
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-J6tDSOgHk

The article at Prison Planet says "This story is only bizarre until you consider the fact that this situation might be staged." However complex a set-up one supposes, it remains bizarre even then. Not impossible, just bizarre. Consider that to remain consistent, they would need to start nearly 300 dead people of all kinds, sourced however. Most theorists presume the identities are made up, so "the real victims" just snuffed out a bit early doesn't work. Already decomposing, the corpses were drained of blood (or did it just evaporate?) and were loaded by someone onto an airliner in the Netherlands, maybe at a secret military facility. Someone leaned over each rotting body to fasten their seat belts for realism.

But a pilot supposedly flew it. What the hell was he thinking? Did they manage to hide the smell from him? Not likely. So he's thinking, perhaps: "I'm supposed to fly this plane full of dead bodies to Kuala Lumpur, for this big cash bonus? Pre-dead bodies, right over war-torn eastern Ukraine? Wait ... I'm going to survive this, right?" No living pilot would agree to that. So clearly he was killed, along with the co-pilot, and stuffed in the cockpit for an all-dead flight done by remote control. Was there blood only in the cockpit? It fits - as the last to die, there was no time to drain their blood. And so, that must be the amended theory and I still don't buy it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

A Different Explanation?
Elsewhere, new member KatKan mentioned living passengers winding up pretty blood-free for medical reasons shot of being pre-dead. In part:
 * ...Using my (very long ago) rescue triage training, I examined all the body photos for type of injury. The main findings were (a) almost no blood (as the separatist intercepted call rightly claimed) (b)a lot of legs at angles suggesting hip/pelvic fracture (a very common injury in air crashes to people wearing seat belts) and (c) all the bodies appear swollen (in first-day photos). We are thinking of what happened as a decompression, a low-pressure event. But that was preceded by the blast detonation of the missile just outside... a high-pressure event. The very high pressure shock wave compresses the blood vessels and severely damages the lungs. Blood pressure and heart rate go sky high trying to compensate. In 1/2 a second the blast wave is gone and they are in decompression.The heart can't adjust fast enough. The lack of blood flow makes the brain and liver swell up, too, so normal blood circulation cannot be re-established even if the heart recovers. The Lockerbie bomb, and various exploding fuel tank cases, were lower pressure explosions; sadly many would have survived those until ground/water impact.KatKan (talk) 20:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * So there is evidence of blast wave, not _just_ decompression alone? But no shrapnel wounds? --Chingachgook (talk) 21:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * If it matters, I haven't looked at may photos, but Time's photo, by Jerome Sessini of a man in his seat in the field has blood on his (broken, distended, maybe swollen) neck that landed there (probably after a post-crash cough, I thought) and ran down, as down is here. Could be his bloody hand slapping there too, but it's a normal seeming amount to me. Space below for rebuttal if it matters enough. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Machine gun shouldn't do a blast wave (of any serious medical consequence), only a missile, sufficiently close by, will. (Knowledge of how much pressure will start to cause this medical effect allows to estimate how close). No/little shrapnel from a missile nearby suggests most of shrapnel is directed away, not in. I cannot make a conclusion  looking at the photo (explanation appears very sound to me, I just don't have the expertise. Presumably people would not die from decompression alone prior to the impact, which indicates that something else was going on).  --Chingachgook (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Other points: I can see how decompression and crash injuries will cause swelling with broken fluid channels. It will also accelerate post-death bloating. Dead by impact, I still say they'd suffer at the last part and miss the first (aside from the first few seconds) (if alive when loaded, as we've been presuming) --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC) and Caustic Logic (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Anna News videos
Anna News has published an interview with Alena Kochkina (Алёны Кочкиной) was at the site with the rescue team 20 minutes after the crash: Claims a smell of formaldehyde. Shows terrible photos of bodies on laptop screen. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 18+ БОИНГ-777. Ужасающие подробности. 29.08.2014 / #MH17 – Anna News, August 29, 2014
 * TIP:
 * Use Google Chrome
 * Turn on automatic translation from Russian to English
 * Turn on captions for video in YouTube
 * With German subtitles: #MH17 Der fliegende Nicht Holländer 18+ (images blurred)

SBU wiretap video

 * ''See also Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Cyber Berkut leak

The video:
 * Щодо збитого літака (оновлено) – Ukrainian SBU
 * Ukraine Releases YouTube Clip "Proving" Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH-17
 * Sees strange July 16 timestamps on video, but as we know, YouTube stamps all videos 24 hours too early. One must use metadata interface to access upload time. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:14, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The video of audio recordings was very early shown to be a hoax, i.e. a mixture of recordings of unrelated topics: some genuine amazement at the crash of MH17 and some possible genuine discussion about earlier shoot downs.

The timestamp issue was most likely just a misreading of YouTube data, but it now quite unexpectedly pops up again. Seems that someone important believed in the false timestamp. Cyberberkut has has released some discussion involving Kolomoiskiy's assistant.

On RT Russian: Hackers broke into the conversation approximate Kolomoiskiy about Boeing crash in Ukraine
 * From the correspondence between Kolomoisky's deputy Svyatoslav Oleynik and Anatoly Gritsenko, leader of "Citizenship" party.
 * ''Gritsenko: Slava! What the hell?! What have you bitches done? How could you upload that video the day before the operation???!!! Do you understand that the «Russists» have already given it for the expert review and requested Youtube for the date of its very first upload???
 * ''Oleinik: Anatoly Stepanovich, I'll call you now! I went out and the phone was left in the office, on the Internet with the tablet. I have now gathering a couple minutes.
 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The time issue and maybe other seed more consideration. First time. Last year, over Ghouta, it was the California time-zone 11-hour discrepancy. This time, the dates are fine. Now, this GMorder (cited by TDurden) found the Russian one, NwtxBA1m9x8, was created Jul 16 at 19:10:24. I'm not sure what method, but I used the one recommended by Petri here (and thanks for that). I get for that video: published: 2014-07-17 T19:08:57.000Z updated: 2014-08-12 T21:24:12.000Z. The English one: 2014-07-17T20:33:16.000Z. updated: 2014-08-12T14:37:41.000Z What can that mean, why the different results, which is proven? My clock computer sometimes has issues, but it shouldn't effect that. It might effect what it says here for creation date on my downloaded copy of the English one: July 23, modified date. no help anyway. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: the Ghouta videos had the issue by being early morning - anything after 11 AM came out with the right date. It wouldn't apply to MH17, an afternoon event (and one time zone closer to California's time) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Dunno about the time, but as to the "mixture of recordings of unrelated topics" Petri mentioned, here's a video claiming to prove audio fakery. I didn't fire up the audio editor to check this out, maybe I should. But in this case I go from large to small, and the fact that those "leaks" haven't been mentioned much even by Kerry's harpies tells me enough. Just like the fact that no pressure is put on the Putschists to release the ATC recordings, and the black box stuff is the opposite of forthcoming, and no satellite material or anything with a stamp put on it by an American more "credible" than Marie Harf has been forthcoming tells me with much greater certainty than some field could burn that the real story doesn't fit the "Western" desired narrative. --CE (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Claims of fakery - I'll check that out. Worth considering what's said and how logical it is, etc. But the hard debunk I think failed, and it seems to be a method issue. This piece at Metabunk says GMorder used the Russian service RGhost.net, which he did, and which the author says he tested. Two videos of his own made - of the time and date, from a government website - on July 21, one uploaded to/downloaded back from Youtube, the other left raw (one he had set for 2015 as well). He says he uploaded both to RGhost and the site told him in no uncertain terms he made those videos a day earlier than he did, July 20 this year and next. Between Youtube and our method there's no day shaved off. I didn't test it myself but it might be RGhost in this regard is a universal "it was a day too early!" converter for debunks that are a little too easy.--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The hoax pops up again in the Dutch investigation: -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Shooting down of MH17 'most likely' scenario: Chief Dutch prosecutor – Associated Press, Sep 12, 2014
 * ''A highly placed rebel officer told the AP in an interview after the disaster that the plane was shot down by a mixed team of rebels and Russian military personnel who believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military plane. Intercepted phone conversations between the rebels released by the Ukrainian government support that version of events.

Spoofed radar
It now seems clear that the Russian ATC radar data, the flights recorders, the physical evidence and the Ukrainian radar data as conveyed by the Dutch preliminary reports all agree on the flight path and the point of impact. Some people are still speaking about spoofed radar data though. What does not agree with the physical evidence though is Flightradar 24. Maybe thay are simply wrong. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Spoofed radar ID caused MH-17 shoot down – Red Flag News

Alexander Khodakovskii ( highly placed rebel commander admitted...)
In Reuters, AP publications, on youtube, and in numerous other sources, it was claimed that " a highly placed rebel commander admitted that rebels had a BUK." Those reports are not accurate.

(1) In youtube recording, a person presumed to be Khodakovskii, says Я знал, что "Бук" шел из Луганска. В тот момент мне сказали, что "Бук" со стороны Луганска идет под флагом ЛНР. I knew that BUK is travelling from Luhansk. At that moment, I was told that Buk is moving from Luhansk under the flag of LNR. However, there is no information on who told him that, and whether it was actually true. In fact, subsequent discussion makes clear that Khodakovski believed that this is well-known to Ukrainian side. His main point in his long winding statement is that Ukranian side new that there may be some Buk in the area. It was irresponsible for Ukrainian side to provoke rebels having lots of military planes sorties in the area and sending passenger jet to the same area at the same time.

(2) In another interview, on 22 July 2014, clearly seen and well audible Alexander Khodakovskii discusses the same matter, making the same main point that Ukrainian side acted irresponsibly. Regarding specifically rebels having or not having Buk, he had this to say : И если мы на сегодняшний день не можем гарантированно говорить о том, был ли у ополченцев «Бук» или не было (и есть доказательства того, что этого «Бука» там не было), — то, по крайне мере, если украинская сторона уверяет, что они располагают достоверными сведениями, они сами роют себе яму. "At present, we cannot guarantee whether militia had Buk, or it did not (and there are some proofs that they did not); however Ukrainian side is shooting itself in the foot claiming that they do have such confirmed information. " --Resup (talk) 22:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Not exactly debunked, but put in its proper, more ambiguous, context. His statements fit pretty well with what I've been suspecting, which is Kiev tricking them into allowing their false-flag machine . Having Lugansk people provide it for the Donetsk people adds a layer of communications they might not manage, keeping them from sorting out the true story and seizing the thing and its crew like they should have. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)