Talk:Khalidiya Massacre

Opposition/Western Narrative
A report in the Guardian filed by Damien Pearse explained "Residents said Syrian forces began shelling the Khaldiya neighbourhood at around 8pm on Friday using artillery and mortars. They said at least 36 houses with families inside were destroyed. "We were sitting inside our house when we started hearing the shelling. We felt shells were falling on our heads," said Waleed, a resident of Khaldiya.  Activists provided Pearse various possible reasons for the stragely deadly onslaught; perhaps it was anger over "a wave of army defections in Homs, or to set an example for other rebel neighbourhoods. But one was sure the plan would backfire: "It does not seem that they get it. Even if they kill 10 million of us, the people will not stop until we topple him."

A February 4 statement at the Local Coordinating Committees website, Syria Under Fire 4-2-2012
 * ''Homs:  Relayed via al-Khaldieh resident: More than 200 martyrs have fallen and the toll is rising due to the constant bombardment of the town. The LCC are working on verifying these numbers.''
 * Security forces and shabiha stormed al-Amal Hospital where more than 50 martyers and 100 wounded civilians lie. People are afraid that everyone will be killed or kidnapped.
 * The regime’s army continues to shell Khaldiyeh neighborhood by tanks and heavy machine-guns. Military reinforcements also arrived to the neighborhood--Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Syrian/Government Narrative

 * Al-Manar: Syrian Sources Deny Bombardment Claims, Obama Condemns Al-Assad
 * Syrian News Agency SANA denied Saturday media reports that the army bombarded spontaneous targets in Homs killing hundreds of innocent civilians. The news agency clarified that these claims were part of the “ongoing distortion, falsification and instigation media campaigns by some satellites” in order to “cover the crimes and aggressions of the armed terrorist groups in Syria”.


 * Media had published Saturday reports and images of corpses, indicating that the Syrian army has committed a “massacre” among “protestors” in the city of Homs. Noting that these images where actually for “innocent citizens kidnapped, tortured and slaughtered by the armed terrorist groups,” SANA pointed out that “the corpses, in fetters, bear signs of torture and organized killing with no signs of artillery or mortar shells.” Some Syrian citizens also contacted state channels such as the Syrian TV reassuring that “the corpses images aired by Satellites were in fact for their relatives who were kidnapped earlier by armed terrorist groups.” Speaking to the Syrian television, one citizen said that “over 300 gunmen with their weapons were operating last night in the area, as RPG missiles poured on the quarter causing 5 houses to burn completely.”


 * Actual SANA report with more detail: "TV Satellites of Instigation Partners with Armed Terrorist Groups" (from http://www.terrorismwatch.org/2012/02/tv-satellites-of-instigation-partners.html citing: http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2012/02/tv-satellites-of-instigation-partners-with-armed-terrorist-groups/)


 * ...Some satellite channels earlier Saturday aired footage for a group of corpses with hands in chains claiming them to be killed by Army bombardment, while they in fact are the corpses of the innocent citizens kidnapped, tortured and slaughtered by the armed terrorist groups.
 * ...Some Syrian citizens made calls to the Syrian TV asserting that they have seen in the footage of the corpses aired by Satellites of lies some of their relatives who were kidnapped earlier by armed terrorist groups. Mrs. Thana al-Mohamad, a resident of Homs, said that she recognized two corpses of her relatives among those shown by fabrications satellites, who were kidnapped since 17 days in Homs Governorate.
 * Khalid al-Shalabi, another resident of Homs, said to Syrian TV, that some members of the armed terrorist groups are disguised in military uniforms shooting randolmly at the citizens of Homs.
 * ...had the killed were hit by mortars, as they claim, their bodies would have been turned into tiny pieces.
 * ”The TV Satellites of instigation, partners with the armed terrorist groups and so-called the Istanbul council, have been launching a hysterical campaign of provocation and incitement to the shedding of the more of Syrian blood as to influence the stances of some countries at the UN Security Council,” added the source.
 * Having witnessed and experienced firsthand the crimes these provocative TV channels have contributed to committing though inciting the terrorists, citizens of Homs city considered that these channels are fabricating a pseudo- massacre in Homs to accuse the Syrian army to influence the UNSC resolutions against Syria.
 * They stressed that what happened last night was an order given to the armed terrorist groups by the so-called Istanbul Council and its head “the criminal Ghalioun” to kill the citizens in Homs and other areas and use their innocent blood in the Security Council’s lobbies.


 * In a phone call with the Syrian TV, Jihad Da’boul, a citizen from Karm Shamsham quarter, close to al-Khaledieyh neighborhood, said that over 300 gunmen with their weapons were operating last night in the area, as RPG missiles poured on the quarter causing 5 houses to burn completely. “The people were in a state of panic, particularly women and children.”
 * “It was like hell,” said a number of citizens from the neighborhoods Ikremah, al-Zahra and al-Muhajrin, still feeling the terror caused by last night, explaining how they were exposed to heavy gunfire, bombs and RPG and mortar attacks by armed terrorist groups.

There are pro-rebel reports of a rebel offensive that corresponds with this anti-rebel narrative. Wikipedia's Siege of Homs article notes "Following the killing of 10 Syrian Army soldiers at a checkpoint and the capture of 19 by the Free Syrian Army, during the night hours of 3 February and into the early hours of the following day, on the 30th anniversary of the Hama massacre, government forces began an artillery bombardment of Homs, particularly the Khaldiyeh neighborhood, with opposition activists claiming that it led to over 200 deaths." cited: Al-Jazeera: 1 and 2. In retaliation for a rebel attack overnight and into the next day, rebels allege, the military responded with shelling of the same duration as that attack: real-time retaliation/replacement of whose blasts or tools of torture caused these hundreds of ruptured bodies.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Timing
February 1's LCC daily report includes this note:
 * On the 02nd of February, 1982 the Syrian regime led by "Hafez Al-Assad" along with his younger brother Rifaat Al-Assad have carried out a massacre in the city of Hama which last 27 days. Syria has lost almost 40,000 souls while more than 100,000 people either displaced, imprisoned or missing....

So one might expect big things about then. The same's day's report noted "Hama: Activists dyed many streets in the city red in commemoration of the 30th anniversary of the Hama massacre. This led fire trucks to come to the area to wash off the streets." Someone would soon be painting messages in blood, but apparently not on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd until late.

It seems the breakthrough echo of the Hama massacre would come a bit offset from 30 years, more fitted to the political timeline that it was hoped could lead to military support for the rebel cause. As Pearse's report noted, "It was not immediately clear what had prompted Syrian forces to launch," or, rather, what would prompt them to launch "such an intense bombardment, just as diplomats at the security council were discussing the draft resolution supporting the Arab League demand for Assad to step aside."

The clues suggest the deaths occurred and were first reported late on the 3rd, Friday night: Pearse heard the shelling began "at around 8pm on Friday," and the LCC's daily reports show what seem to be the first, unexplained, videos of martyrs in numbers like seen on the 4th, described here as "slaughtered." The day's top image is one of those, an adult male with legs torn off at mid-thigh, horribly swollen and deformed, no coating of plaster dust from a collapsing home. The broad tally and reports were public early on the 4th (on my end, U.S. Pacific time, Quinn's Guardian report is dated Feb. 3), just in time to color the meetings as they commenced, or perhaps a bit too late for that, depending on just when the meeting happened. Apparently France's foreign minister had time in advance to decide the new massacre was a crime against humanity and to announce "those who block the adoption of such a resolution," to force Assad's resignation over it, "are taking a grave historical responsibility". --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Location
Khalidiya district - here on Wikimapia - is a good-sized one just north of the center of Homs, and stretching a bit north nearly to the outskirts. As for where within it this shelling happened, that's not yet clear. Even as for where the bodies were collected and displayed (after removal from the rubble?) all I can really say at the moment is a place, or places, with buildings. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Death Toll
Guardian, Pearse: "Death tolls cited by activists and opposition groups ranged from 217 to 260, making the Homs attack the deadliest so far in Assad's crackdown on protests..." "The death toll is now at least 217 people killed in Homs, 138 of them killed in the Khaldiya district," Rami Abdulrahman, head of the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, told Reuters, citing witnesses. ... The opposition Syrian National Council said 260 civilians were killed, describing it as "one of the most horrific massacres since the beginning of the uprising in Syria". It said it believed Assad's forces were preparing for similar attacks around Damascus and in the northern town of Jisr al-Shughour.

To that reported 138, the VDC database lists Just Khalidiya = 137 martyrs from there on Feb. 4, all by "shelling." The one missing entry is Hazim Al-Faisal from Khaldieh, university student, "martyred in Khaldieh massacre" but the day before, also by shelling. Considering it reportedly started at 8 PM on the 3rd, one would think the first four hours of shelling killed more than one person. Why he alone was listed earlier than the rest isn't clear to me. So 138 is a solid allegation, backed with alleged names and some details, for this bulk of the day's dead. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

United for a Free Syria reported "While armed forces targeted regions across Syria, according to Al Arabiya News, the death toll in Homs alone is over 370 killed and 1,300 wounded..." They also crow therein "Damascus Denies Responsibility for Deaths of More than 400 Civilians ahead of U.N. Vote," linking to the Pearse report cited above as citing 217-260, including a subset of 138. It's not clear what 370 or over 400 might refer to other than a mid-point between 217-260 plus 138. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

A Wikipedia article "Siege of Homs" says for this incident "The opposition Syrian National Council claimed the death toll was at 416 residents of the city" That cited claim this "All Voices" report, not the SNC, saying "In a barrage of mortar shells, Syrian forces killed at least 416 civilians . Over 1300 were wounded." That cites an al-Arabiya article that won't load here, but which seems to be reflected here, for example, crediting "Alarabiya with Agencies." This, however, fails to mention the SNC at all, and says that "at least 416 civilians were killed by the Syrian forces across the country while the rebel Free Syrian Army (FSA) vowed to fight back ... But Al Arabiya correspondent said that the death toll in Homs alone included 337 people killed and 1,300 others injured. '' (death tolls include the injured now?) 337 is neither the 416 not the 370+ attributed to the SNC or al-Arabiya. It's also higher than the toll likely was - it's roughly the full 200 (rounded up, including 138 from Khalidiya) rounded back down to 199 and re-adding the 138 Khalidiya victims. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Local Coordination Committees provide daily summaries with, usually, a by-province death toll. Feb. 1: "The number of martyrs today has risen to 70 so far including 14 martyrs from the Free Syrian Army, 2 ladies and 2 children. 36 martyrs in Wady Barada (Damascus suburbs), 14 in Homs..." Feb. 2: no daily summary - widespread shooting and shelling and numerous martyrs, but apparently nothing major yet. Feb. 3: No summary in the usual spot. Further down, what sounds like an intermediary tally from early in a normal day: " The number of martyrs has risen to 31 thus far, including, 3 children and 3 defected soldiers, 7 in Idlib, 9 in Darya (Damascus Suburbs), 5 in Aleppo,6 in Hama, 2 in Homs, 1 in Daraa, 1 in Rankous (Damascus Suburbs)." The first videos of what seems to be our massacre, large numbers of mostly adult male shelled people, laid out in a morgue, at night it seems, are posted with this entry but with no explanation or reflection in the text report. Feb. 4: "The final number of martyrs fell on Saturday is 206, including 181 in Homs, 16 in Damascus Suburbs, 5 in Idlib, 3 in Daraa and one in Hama." And there's the text explanation for people who died, apparently, overnight. Feb. 5: "The number of martyrs thus far today has risen to 36, among them 5 children and 2 women. 22 martyrs in Homs, 6 in Idlib, 5 in the Damascus Suburbs, 2 in Daraa, and 1 in Aleppo"

Strictly Male Victims?
The opposition Center for Documentation of Violations in Syria (VDC) martyrs database, reportedly informed by the LCC's reports, helps solidify this picture of a dramatic one day spike in fatalities.Each entry has a name, and some might have valuable little clues beyond that. That's interesting. Only eight of these people are listed as the broad category women and children. To 129 men killed by this random shelling, on homes, with families inside ... meaning perhaps mostly childless homosexual couples? No ... I didn't save the links, but further searches break it down yet again: Male children = 8 (I'll check ages later), with zero slots left for females, child or adult. Only allowed to adopt male children but in small numbers? No ...
 * All 11 Martyrs from Homs, Feb. 2 and 3 combined.
 * All 174 martyrs from Homs, Feb. 4 (two pages - the rest are under "end")
 * Just Khalidiya = 137 (again, two pages)
 * All those who are adult male = 129 (still not one page)
 * Ages - I might re-gather the links, but they tend to be 14, 16, 17, one aged 9, and a few not specified ("0") --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

U.S. president Barack Obama declared on the 4th "yesterday the Syrian government murdered hundreds of Syrian citizens, including women and children, in Homs through shelling and other indiscriminate violence." (White House transcript) But according to this, the core bulk of the dead that proves "the Syrian government’s unspeakable assault" is 94% adult, 100% male. And that is a clue with implications threatening the whole moral basis for this rhetoric...

Gender-segregated or gender-exclusive captives would explain this little-noted feature perfectly. Adding some male filghter victims, perhaps a majority of the dead in fact, and some extra peripheral victims of mixed gender and age in other areas of Homs. But in Khalidiya only the males and almost totally adult ones were pre-sorted for this overwhelming end. By the same token, the activist story does not explain the breakdown. Pearse heard "Residents said ... at least 36 houses with families inside were destroyed. ""We were sitting inside our house ..." said Waleed, a resident of Khaldiya." If people were in their homes and attacked that way, where did their women and girls go? Did they all survive somehow, or were their deaths completely unreported? Some might have been sent away to safer locales as things got more violent, but this is, apparently, a 100% absence, with no small sampling pool as an excuse. It should be noted VDC entries often have the males reported first and the females added months and thousands of martyrs later. But in this case, the slot you'd expect was never filled in, even when going for huge numbers was clearly the main point. Either men alone were "living" in the hit places, or the women and girls living their were chosen for some other fate. And I don't think even "smart bomb" shells can manage that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

It would be odd, if all victims were male, that SANA and other loyalist sources didn't point that out as a clear proof that the victims were hostages. While the alleged chains seen biding some in videos is a strong point if it holds up, this is too and it wasn't noted anywhere I've seen. For both claims, I'll need to check the bideo record better than I have. In my first scan, I noticed the male-ness of the few body pools shown, but I thought I had seen one woman at least. Even if so, that there were female victims the VDC missed, it seems there can hardly be many more victims than the 137/8 males they list, and the imbalance remains - if not total than striking and clearly a clue to add to the others.

One thing to note about the VDC entries: while the one Dec. 3 entry is at least one exception, the general rule in all entries I've checked is no notes or explanations, and very few details. They provide a name, adult male classification, location Khaldieh, killed Feb. 4 by shelling, no more. Ages are given rarely, videos provided sometimes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:01, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The boys: All 8 child-male victims. Three teenagers (age 17, 16, 14), four no data, one no data but a photo suggesting younger, like 7 or 8.

Family Names
Names of interest among these men, that ring a bell from prior research, mainly losing family members to other recent random massacres (links and notes later, and/or scan Talk:Homs Massacres): Hassan Mohammed Chuirtani, Nader Nabih Mando, Shaker Mohammed Akkash, Osama Nader Akkash, Tariq Alloush, Loay Alloush, Mohammed al-Homsi (AM shelling), Khalid Guenbazo, Abdul Rahman Guenbazo, Abdul Ghani al-Abed, Abdul Muhaimin Abdul Kader al-Abed, Faraj Ayoub al-Ezzo, Hossam Al-Ezzo  Qutaiba Ahmed al-Ezzo, Faraj Ayoub al-Ezzo, Mohamed Khaled Al-Asaad, Mohammed Rateb Dib al-masri ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Note: Like anywhere in the world and more so than usual, the same only-so-many names are widely represented in an area the size of Homs, by families unrelated or effectively so, and on branches and individuals of vastly different views. So no name-to-name match between two people can prove a darn thing. However, in some cases it might mean something, and for that reason, it's worth noting matches that emerge. The close time and space matches here raise the likelihood of a connection between each event, illuminating the motives of the guilty ones. I note that so far, rebels make little mention of reasons or relations. A man being a doctor is the only note you need - the regime must hate doctors, and their sons, and so those must have supported the rebels, or just been Sunni, or whatever. It's open-ended. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Atfeh Jihad Attfeh: age not given, but young, by the video provided - maybe early 20s. Five members of an Atfeh family would be killed in the nearby Sebil-Cairo Street Massacre three days later. Visibly, he could be a shelling victim; he's generally intact but his arms are roughed up, worst at the finger of the right hand (unclear). And his head is heavily bandaged, arguably consistent with someone who took it worst to the head, but didn't die from it right away. However, his face is smoke-stained around the nose and mouth, which we've seen around with people held captive by rebels (see Aqrab Massacre for a clear example). That might take more than the couple of hours at most in a shelled house that these victims allegedly had - a week or so of captivity, with deliberate smoke exposure, might explain this better (the bandages appear to be later and un-stained). Otherwise, the signs are not clear. He may have a small hole in his lower right belly, scratches on the left side, both almost covered by his crossed arms. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:01, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Mando Nader Nabih Mando: No videos to study, no age or details. Five members of a family of Dr. Mohammed Mando would be killed a few weeks later on Feb. 29, in an unspecified area of Homs (perhaps Sebil) A mother, and three sons are listed as killed, with no names given but for the father, a doctor. See Homs Massacres section. Then on April 5, five Mando men, as old as 90, would be killed in the a massacre of April 5. Rebels say four men, aged as high as 90, were imprisoned by regime thugs at their own farm near Baba Amr, tortured to death, and robbed of wealth including gold and prime leather. Same day, a boy of the Mando family was also killed over in al-Houla by random regime shelling.--Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 8 December 2013 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Bahlaq/Bahlak Mukhtar Mohammed Behlaq. This seldom-reported name is listed by the VDC for this massacre, but not for another one on February 29. Same as Dr. Mando's family (see above), it seems to be in Sabil where the LCC (but not VDC) reported another massacre of five members of a family al-Bahlak. Again, see February 29, Sebil?. So both families Mando and Bahlaq have the distinction of being targeted together in both of these massacres a month apart.

Al-Homsi
(promoted to sub-section) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Khalidiya massacre victim: Mohammed al-Homsi: No age, images, or details. Note that Homsi means one from Homs, and can be bother a real name and a good pseudonym. In and around that same day, a few al-Homsis, or the same ones repeated, were also killed around Homs. It's a bit strange, and of course horrible. LCC Feb. 2 reports "Veterinarian Ahmad Al-Homsi was martyred, his dead body was found in an area near Al-Mahfoora in the city of Al-Hawla." There is no city of al-Hawla/Houla, but this narrows it down to one of three or so towns, several kilometers northwest of Homs city, then racked by ambiguous violence accompanying a growing rebel presence. Then Feb. 3 notes, a day late, "The dead body of young Ahmad Al-Homsi (15 years old) was found. He was killed along with his father who was a veterinarian." Then Feb. 5 notes "Amhad Al-Homsi and his son, Mohamad, were martyred in the Jouret Shayah district by security forces' gunfire." So ... that's four al-Homsis, two father son sets, both with fathers named Ahmed, but the son variously Ahmed or Mohammed. One set killed in Houla Feb. 2, the other in Jouret Shayeh Feb. 5. And in between, another Mohammed al-Homsi was killed by this alleged shelling, for five total. Hmmm... might all be some kind of victims recycling, a targeted killing spree, or a total coincidence. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:24, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Note, that Ahmed and Mohammed have the same root. Then again, Ahmed is a very common name; could just mean "Joe from Homs." -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Video settles that: For the last two in Homs itself, videos are provided (extremely upsetting): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSBW0Ook74I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIvrDaWL48A. The first one's subtitles say they were "slaughtered," not shot, and both seem to have throat injuries. The father's neck is clearly sliced across, cloth stuffed in one corner (and he was previously beaten, and seemingly died in extreme sadness). He's called Dr. Ahmed al-Homsi, raising the coincidences too high - it's got to be re-branding, they died twice. Or three times maybe. The son's throat, almost as clearly, looks torn out, a wide patch of missing flesh under the chin. I'll say he died more stoically. He looks about 15. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The cameraman on the video states the date as February 5. The bodies do not look too degenerated. Were they kept in a cold morgue for three days? Or was the Uruknet story updated? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool, a thought and signature that's not mine! Looks like December 5 it is. I didn't catch the date given, thanks. You're right, they don't look any three days dead. The Dec. 2 report must be a suspicious preview, as I mentioned. No body was found that day, it was just expected by then (they were held) and announced too early, and in the wrong place. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:47, 26 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I could not find the Uruknet page on Wayback Machine, but I found two mirrors of the page from February 3rd. The origin of the Houla news item may be this Facebook post by alkesweh. The alkesweh Facebook account is now deleted, but it seems to be related to @Alkesweh شبكة الكسوةالاخبارية (alkesweh) on Twitter and abod.alkesweh on Facebook.
 * The original Facebook post is in English and Arabic. This is what I can find from the Google cache:
 * ‫حمص: الحولة: استشهاد الطبيب البيطري أحمد الحمصي،حيث وجدت جثته في منطقة قرب المحفورة بالمدينة
 * Homs: Al-Hawla: Veterinarian Ahmad Al-Homsi was martyred, his dead body was found in an area near Al-Mahfoora in the city of Al-Hawla.
 * Here is another version in Arabic from February 2, 2012! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:19, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * سوا:::حمص: الحولة: استشهاد الطبيب البيطري أحمد الحمصي،حيث وجدت جثته في منطقة قرب المحفورة بالمدينة
 * ''Martyrdom veterinarian Ahmed al-Homsi, where his body was found in an area near the city excavated.
 * The al-Homsi victims are included in this circular from February 3rd.
 * A summary of the events of Homs today 2-2-2012: the thirtieth anniversary of the Hama massacre: (ملخص أحداث حمص اليوم 2-2-2012: الذكرى الثلاثون لمجزرة حماة :)
 * The stanza for Houla also exist here, (maybe with some typographic changes.)
 * الحولة :
 * استشهد اليوم الطبيب البيطري أحمد الحمصي الذي وجد في منطقة بالقرب من المحفورة وهو من مواليد حلب حيث قامت شبيحة الاسد بقتله ذبحاوسرقة سيارته والتشبيح بها و
 * After correcting some spelling I get this translation:
 * Today martyred veterinarian Ahmed al-Homsi, who was found in an area near the excavated. He was born in Aleppo, where the shabiha Assad to kill him and steal his car slaughtered by Alchbih.
 * The most detail can be found in this Facebook post by the Association of Liberal Syrian Doctors.
 * استشهد اليوم الطبيب البيطري .. أحمد الحمصي .. الذي وجد في منطقة بالقرب من المحفورة بمنطقة الحولة ...
 * وهو من مواليد حلب درس الطب البيطري في حماه وعاش حياته المهنية في منطقة الحولة كـ طبيب معالج واستمر على هذه الحالة ما يقارب ال 20 عاما ... حيث قامت شبيحة الاسد بقتله ذبحا ... وسرقة سيارته والتشبيح بها ....
 * Translation with the help of Google and Bing:
 * ''Today martyred veterinarian Ahmed al-Homsi. He was found in an area near the excavation in Houla.
 * ''Born in Aleppo he studied veterinary medicine in Hama and lived his professional life in the Houla region as a therapist for nearly 20 years. Assad's Shabiha killed him by slitting his throat. The thugs also stole his car.
 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 07:54, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Petri, for all that. EACH of these marked spots has depths like this to plumb, glad you were inspired to dig into one. Dr. al-Homsi, raised in Aleppo (from an ancestral Homs family named al-Homsi), trained in Hama, practicing in al-Houla, reported killed Feb. 2 in al-Houla but not really ... I'm guessing he and his son were abducted there with the plan to shoot him and release his son for ransom. He was declared dead, perhaps to pressure the ransom. They can say when called by pleading family "No, we didn't really kill him, but all we have to do is make the statement true. And there's a 20% fee for being proven wrong if we release him now. 120% what we agreed, get it all here by sundown." Perhaps too he and his son escaped. Then it was decided to announce the son's death too and find them, hiding with relatives in Jouret al-Shayeh, on the 5th. Now they're dead, not shot but throats opened, son first in front of his dad. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There is too much detal in the Liberal Syrian Doctors' post for it to be fiction: throat slit, body found! We do not get a good view of his body on the video. Maybe the body is three days old. The son was killed two days later. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I could not find weather data for Homs for February 2012, but the medium temperature in Hama at the time was around 10 degrees Celsius. It would have been possible to store the body for three days. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Good thinking. Video from March 1 shows snow falling, so, sure. And there are also possible ways both stories could be true, the bodies found twice. But otherwise, one of the two stories at least has to be untrue, so maybe Feb. 2 was the real deal and the later one was re-done for some unknown reason. I don't know. --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Being dead in Houla on February 2nd is definite proof that the story of the father being killed in an "Assad massacre" in Homs on February 4th or 5th is a hoax. (The son could have been killed later.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Again checking the CDV proved worthwhile - they're going with the later death in Homs version, and the names given then: All Homsi martyrs from Homs, all time = 14 (not as many as you'd think). The bottom (oldest) three are the ones - The father Ahmad Mohammad and son, Mohammad Ahmad (making both the son's reported names correct!) died Feb. 5 only, it says, in (or were from? or were catalogued in?) Joret Al-Shiyah. Cause: "shooting." Dad's notes: "He was martyred with his son Mohammad Ahmad Al-Homsi when the regime forces opened gunfire randomly in the neighborhood." Bullets grazed both their throats? They don't list any such pair killed in the 2nd, so that must've been ... the same people? What happened to them in Houla, then, three days before they died in Homs? The initial kidnapping prematurely reported as their deaths? Or was that even earlier? Is "Homsi" a false name meaning "not from al-Houla?" --Caustic Logic (talk) 15:24, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * (See above conversation) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not want to say this before, but the VDC data is so bad that I am starting to suspect Razan Zaitouneh is somehow related to the known Douma massacre managers. Anyway, here we have Zaitouneh on video. Does she sound like the female propagandist identified by Urs? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2013 (UTC)