Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre

Sub-pages

 * Clashes - Clashes talk
 * Fires - Fires talk
 * Chemicals - Chemicals talk
 * Investigations - Investigations talk
 * Videos - Videos Talk (Our investigation as usual is based in video - here the evidence is organized and discussed)
 * Denis Cherkasov Videos‎ - Denis Cherkasov Videos Talk‎
 * Vladimir Bodelan

Videos
(moved to Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Videos) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Sergei Dibrov Videos
(moved to Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Videos) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Death toll?

 * В Славянске проверяют информацию о приближающейся колонне бронетехники (Regional council deputy: the death toll in Odessa was 116 people) – РИА Новости
 * Kiev conceals deaths in Odessa fire, 116 killed - Ukrainian lawmaker – VoR
 * ''The interim Ukrainian authorities are hiding from the public the true death toll in Friday's tragedy in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, which actually claimed 116 lives, a member of the Odessa regional council told RIA Novosti Monday. "According to our data, there were 116 people killed in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. Killed, not just "dead". "We don't use the word "burned" or "suffocated", because autopsies are not being performed, since the people have bullet wounds to the head," Vadim Savenko said.


 * Одесситы рассказывают о зверствах нацистов
 * Vladimir Suchan on Facebook
 * ''According to Odessite activists with information on the ground, 126 people were killed only in the basement of the Labor Union building in Odessa on May 2. 8 people died by jumping from the windows, 12 people were beaten to death on the ground by the walls of the Labor Union building, and 9 people were shot to death by the windows. Altogether, the overall number of the dead significantly exceeds the official number of 46 and actually stands between 200 and 300.


 * Руководитель Одесской народной республики: По моим данным, в Доме профсоюзов погибли 272 человека (Head of the People's Republic of Odessa: According to my information, in the House of Trade Unions killed 272 people) – RT, May 16, 2014
 * ''During a fire in Odessa Trade Union House killed 272 people. This was explained in an interview with the head of the self-proclaimed RT Odessa's Republic Valery Kaurov. Now he is in Moscow.

Victim list

 * В неофициальном списке погибших 2 мая в Одессе — уже 42 имени (An informal list of victims on May 2 in Odessa - already 42 names)
 * Note: the word that Google translate renders "broomstick" = огнестрел = Ognestrel = pistol, per image search. So those are shooting victims, based on whatever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

This was compiled by a May 2 Committee (Комитета 2 Мая) with a far different tone from the more famous (imposter?) [Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Investigations#May 2 Group|May 2 Group] directed by Sergei Dibrov. This list has 44 names, the extras seeming to be #11 and 12 here (two male gunshot victims). Official death toll is 48 (including those shot early on on the pro-Unity side), so some are missing (likely those same, these being only for the bulk killed at the Trade Union Hall). --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Список опознанных погибших в результате противостояния 2 мая 2014 года в Одессе (The list of identified victims in the result of the confrontation may 2, 2014 in Odessa)

Some of those listed have their own linked pages, like Evgeny Vasilievich Metchik born 1983, he "died with his friend villager Sergey Mishin (with whom they maintain law and order on the Kulikovo field) in the House of trade unions." Both lists say he died from gas poisoning, or, as this page says, "according to the standard conclusion of the forensic medical examination, without an autopsy, he died from gas fumes." Another entry is Irina Yakovenko - strangled librarian: Born September 7, 1959 in Odessa, she was, it says, "strangled in the House of trade unions by the Nazi beasts." This is apparently the (not). Her daughter Alena says "On Kulikovo field mother walked with enthusiasm, believed that she can be heard by those in power," (in contrast to those saying she just worked there) and is very sorry she wasn't there for her that day, like they usually were for each other. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Death of regional council deputy Vyacheslav Markin

 * В Одессе в госпитале умер депутат облсовета (In Odessa, a regional council deputy died in hospital)
 * ''In Odessa, died in hospital Odessa Regional Council deputy Vyacheslav Markin.
 * Andrey Davydov ‏@FarEasterner
 * ''Yesterday Maidanites severely beat local legislators who tried to stop mayhem. One of them Mr Markin just died

Is it just coincidence he was the one beaten that badly? Odessa Borotba (anti-Fascist) leader and mayoral candidate Alexei Albu said in a May 19 statement (here in French until the Borotba site is back up, or translated excerpts here at ACLOS):
 * On May 1, my friend, the regional adviser Odessa Vyacheslav Markin, had agreed to be my campaign manager. On May 2, he was killed. Neo-fascist patrols attacked our activists and beat them. The SBU (state security police) puts pressure on people close to me.

He goes on to say - from Crimea - that elections can't mean a thing in this climate and it's time for mass revolt. A fellow Borotba member was killed at the Trade Union Hall, he says, and Albu himself was apparently beaten somewhere at this time, judging by his May 6 interview video. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Or was he even beaten? Odessa Daily claims he was one of the jumpers at the Trade Union hall. (Translated) "As we found in the tragic day on May 2 Markin was dressed in a gray T-shirt and blue jeans. By studying the records from the event, we were able to find pictures and video fragment, which fixed the incident with the deputy after he jumped out of the DP." If we had a photo to compare, it could be more sure. They cite the 24:17 video as posted by online journalist Anatoly Shary (Анатолий Шарий) (now pulled - see Andre Fomine posting in lieu) - "At around 18:47 am a man in camouflage leans toward the man lying on the ground in a gray shirt." He's able to stand up with little help, seems a good candidate for survival. But that looks like the same guy they found a photo of - busted up right arm and blood from somewhere, pants down, looking semi-conscious, smoke-stained nostrils but otherwise clean-looking. Still doesn't look fatal. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC) and --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Same match-up described here by May 2 Committee August 13 (Odessa Today article, next day, so this was first.) In part, it says (translated):
 * The blood on his shirt, as identified by the doctors, does not belong Markin and, apparently, gets on your clothing when falling from a window.


 * As you know, shortly thereafter, Vyacheslav Markin was taken at the nearby Military medical clinical centre of the southern region (former 411th hospital), where he soon died. According to the official version, presented at the meeting of the audit Committee of the regional Council on 20 June, the cause of death was internal injuries due to a fall, complicated by chronic disease.


 * Friends and family noticed the seam ( шов ) on the head of the deceased. As explained by the experts Group on 2 may, that can occur during post-mortem examination (autopsy).

So he didn't die in the fall. But the "шов" on his head might suggest, and some people apparently say, he was shot at some point and died from that. RT video, May 3: A man at the TUH says "43 people were burned alive, and a local deputy died from a gunshot wound this morning. Police are here now, but where were they yesterday?" --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Andrey Brazhevsky

 * http://www.marxist.com/terror-in-ukraine-forces-left-wing-organisation-borotba-underground.htm
 * Our comrade Andrey Brazhevsky died in the Trade Union Building. He jumped from the third floor of the burning building and survived, but the fascists had beaten him to death with sticks. His mother was there at the time as well. She saw that one of the guys jumped out of a window, saw that the fascists were trying to finish him off. She threw herself on him, covered him with her body and saved him. She did not know that her own son at this exact moment was being beaten by the fascists and that he would die from these beatings.--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)


 * WW salutes revolutionary youth Andrew Brazhevsky A founding member of Borotba (struggle) in Odessa, computer programmer, student of Marxism, and defender of Odessa's muti-ethnic character "from the drive of the Ukrainian fascists and ultranationalists for racial “purity.”" He would have turned 27 on August 30, if he hadn't been killed on May 2, so his birthday was marked as a day of remembrance by Worker's World and "communist and anti-fascist fighters around the world." --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Khrystyna Berzhanytska

 * Kyiv Post, "who is to blame?"
 * ...Despite rumors that there were Russian citizens among the dead, all the identified victims turned out to be from Odessa. Five participants of the clashes went missing. Some 200 people sought medical aid after the clashes. Of identified victims, six are women.
 * One of the women was Khrystyna Berzhanytska, 22. A blonde young woman of Russian origin and an AntiMaidan activist in Odesa, she died of smoke inhalation inside the Trade Unions House. In early November 2013, she participated in a talk show on local TV, defending the idea of Slavic unity and criticizing the West.
 * ''“I don’t understand why everyone is so pro-Western now. What comes from West kills our culture, our traditions. It’s wrong to take after someone; everyone should have their own way. Otherwise, we can turn into a herd,” Berzhanytska said then. Most of the bodies in Trade Unions House were found lying in the stairwell and upstairs rooms.''

Pregnant woman
So the medical sources agree there was no pregnant woman among the dead. This was an older woman with a bloated middle who was brutally murdered, and left looking pregnant. Also, "What makes you think the person in the photo is even dead? Kremlin media doesn’t need a dead body to stage a photo of a “dead person”. Sadly, probably because they are economically vulnerable and perhaps a bit nostalgic for the old USSR, we see again and again elderly women participating in disgusting Kremlin-sanctioned stage plays to seed hatred in the hearts of the vulnerable." This from the same "PR" group that called the non-fake charred people "Russian Terrorists." They must have done the fakery before torching themselves? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Moscow journalist says there was no pregnant woman in Odesa Trade Unions Building – EuromaidanPR, May 10, 2014


 * I decided to post this note here, but already did. Still some points worth adding:

a) she was a pro-Putin faker who slipped away and so never came through his hospital b) he knows but would rather not admit a woman was murdered like that c) She was simply passed through a different hospital or by a different doctor and he just doesn't know. But he seems to imply fakery anyway... --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why everyone thinks she was strangled with a phone cord. I don't see anything clarifying if she was strangled at all, or just what. Does anyone know if this is based on anything credible?
 * The claim of an older woman, to me, fits with the picture. She does look a little on the older side, and that doesn't really look like a pregnant belly, just swollen
 * If this is partly post-mortem bloating (maybe accelerated by the pose?) it could be a timeline clue: was she killed in the evening break-in, or even earlier, when the red armband people were getting themselves set up in there?
 * In the above, sleazy article, the Moscow journalist (Elena Rykovtseva) called "chief doctor of one of Odesa’s hospitals that is receiving the wounded." He hadn't heard the claim, and "asked to see her photo. And he immediately said it was clearly an elderly woman who was photographed, for some reason, here in such a pose, likely in order to create the needed effect." "Pose" implies, as the sleazy article does, that this was faked. Having seen the photo, the doctor did not provide a positive ID. This could suggest:

Another source: The mysterious 'strangled woman' of Odessa France 24, the Observers, May 13. An inherently mainstream, pro-Kiev outlook, but fairly balanced, and with some useful information.
 * The photo was taken by a woman who goes by the name “Alena” (unavailable). Alena says she went to the scene the day after the fire to search for a relative who had disappeared. She first published the photo on May 3 in a Facebook album (no longer in the album) retracing her visit through the building. She then reposted it in on her Facebook wall on May 7, along with a short explanation. She wrote that, following numerous reactions to this photo, she wanted to clarify the context in which it was taken. She says she took it on the building’s fourth floor, and that she regrets not photographing more angles of the body in order to help understand the reasons for her death. ... In the same post, Alena says that the dead woman was rather old and that she doubts she could have been pregnant...
 * Alena thought she was not pregnant, probably right. She also thought the wman seemed to be dead, not faking, lying in wait to be pictured like that.


 * One of our sources also told us he exchanged emails with a relative of the woman. This source claims the victim had “nothing do to do with the separatists” and was simply an employee of the trade union house.
 * "Relatives" speaking for her suggests she did indeed die, and probably at her work. She worked there at the hall, they say, not in a Moscow propaganda unit.

A coroner told the Obervers:
 * This position, with her bottom on the desk, makes me think that someone placed her there. The absence of any trace of the fire in the room also makes asphyxiation seem unlikely, though of course we cannot completely rule out the emission of toxic gases, since we don’t know when the window was opened.” The doctor added that strangulation, or a strike on the head, are both possibilities that could explain her death.
 * The coroner thought she looked dead, and seems to lean a bit towards the murder-type explanations. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Blue? Okay, there is something around this woman's neck, but to me that could be her necklace. These are common. What I could notice, looking closer, is a bluish tint in some areas - maybe artifacts, but a bit too-consistently the one color for that, IMO. This appears mainly on her hands (perhaps smashed, perhaps bruised fists, from beating on someone/something), down the right side of her head and maybe neck, and one clearer line across the right cheek, as if she'd been tightly gagged. This is a possible clue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The Screaming Woman
I'm not convinced it's the same person as the above enty, as most people seem to presume. But apparently on the same floor, a woman was killed over a prolonged period, heard screaming from the window, as hecklers below shouted she wasn't human and should be shut up. I have some details on this around, but for now, the chilling video with English narration which, I guess, I'm kind of trusting here. Note the presence of a fire ladder right there no one wants to climb and ... figure out how to save her ... from whatever ... being done by whoever ... that's got a Ukrainian flag they unfurl right after. This is what a pogrom looks like? I don't like these things. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Original audio is obscured by voice-over, but   "Separatist,  bliad'   !!!!!" can be clearly heard with a lot of aggression in the tone (extra link to original of help; in important cases good to have both. No need for extra-professional voice-modulated voice-over. Transcript, any language, is better than a voice-over). (bliad': Rus., insult) in this instance emphasizing  aggression, not referring to a sexual behavior).   --Resup (talk) 06:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I heard there was a second view of this scene, and finally stumbled across it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiW8S0R0QMY This is filmed at the north corner, looking into the lit window they think the screaming comes from - 4th floor. The audio is clearer here, and we can see heads moving around (doing an enhanced/stabilized thing, so far it seems too unclear still to call). Also, we see deputy Mikola Volkov here, with cops, all ignoring the screams as the fire truck puts its ladder back down. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Woman screaming "Help!, Help." at 0:55 it is "Jump! " from somebody in the crowd (this does not appear to be related to the woman) . Than cheers and Ukraine! Ukraine! It seems to be about firefighters in the left portion of the screen. --Resup (talk) 06:11, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Might line up with the flag unfurled in the other video, if that lines up. The camera seems to think it's related to the people climbing down from the front of the building. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

In both cases, I stumbled on low-view re-posts with limitations. Originals still needed - some kind of fakery is possible here. I'm presuming not, but I mean to dig more specifically for more primary sources that may have extra context to help make sense of it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

More than likely, this is how it looked and sounded, but what it means is open to debate. Right there in the lit room everyone can hear and some can see into, it may or may not be an obvious murder, rape, or the like. From some of the crowd reaction if the first video, especially among the women (like the one filming/talking) there's unease consistent with them thinking it was ... but then, maybe not. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I. Kurbatova
A Russian citizen was killed in the massacre. This gives Russia jurisdiction on the crime.
 * Генконсульство РФ: В Одессе 2 мая погибла гражданка России (Consulate General of the Russian Federation: In Odessa, May 2 killed a Russian citizen) – Life News, 7 Oct 2014
 * ''I. Kurbatova's body was found on May 3 in the park. Judging by the injury, a woman was killed, but the cause of death remained officially installed - have not been carried out all the procedural and forensic activities.

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:34, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * This would be new. Russians/Moldovans were first implicated, but officially all dead (and arrested) were Ukrainian, all but 2 of the dead from Odessa. There's the question of why it took so long to figure this out. And it's not yet clear if she's even allegedly a victim of the massacre proper (raising the death toll) or of some related violence later on. Which park isn't even spelled out. Didn't find anything putting her on the Kulokivo Field or in that political mindset, or anything else at all except Trassa E-95 doubting it. But maybe more info will appear and help fill in the blanks. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Stiff Stairwell Victims
On the Euromaidan PR video Russian Terrorists Burnt Alive shows badly burnt bodies in the stairwell. Odd positions, heads up, feet facing up to higher floor, rigor mortis, hands sticking up. It looks like these people did not die naturally in these positions. Many of the same oddities as we saw in the Khamis Brigade Morgue. Note the tags attached to the wrists. Some have documents in plastic bags attached with cable ties. These must have been placed by rescue services after the fire. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Not blood. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 12:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I had a look, but not a careful one. From the shed massacre, I can say usually back muscles contract more and bodies curl backwards if burnt enough. These don't look that burnt, nor are their postures very consistent with that. The arms up thing we also saw, and I'm not sure if people really die with arms frozen up in defense, but it looks like that here (0:16), like it did with the one guy who seemed beheaded. So, I don't know yet. They seem to have some marks on them, looking for bullet holes or the like. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Defense? What was I thinking? What we learned is arms up is not the effect of fire on a body. The effect you'll see is mainly back muscles contracting over front ones, so bodies curl backwards. Arms and legs just respond to that. The arms up here look like handles, on bodies dead long enough for rigor mortis to set in. So, they were dragged into place at least two hours after death and then burnt. See here. One of them has a bullet hole in the chest, I think. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the rigor mortis is weird and indicates the bodies were moved. I thought you would notice that earlier. I should have mentioned the issue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I did notice it, just waited to mention it and then forgot I was waiting, until I was reminded by looking at them again. :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

How long after the fire were the pictures taken? They don't look badly burned enough to die on the spot from it. In most building fires people die from the smoke and only get burned afterwards. There is a thing called "Lazarus sign" where a brain dead person, or very close to dying person, raises their arms, it's a nerve reflex thing. But I don't think this would last long enough to develop rigor mortis in that position. It would be useful to know where the bodies were when first found, but the Sektor people were the first in, I think? bodies got taken away? I also saw a theory that many were killed by other means and just set on fire a bit afterwards KatKan (talk) 03:47, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Fuchedghi video, at 1:28 Fuchedghi says " ...(smth, unclear).. corpses were not much burned but they were corpses." Prior to that narrator is telling us that according to (F), "most people died not from the fire"  I did not post those comments it as I thought they could die from smoke inhalation and the meaning is unclear to me. Than me see Right Sector walks around and count bodies. At (1:49) there is lots of blood; Right Sector says: what's this, brains?--Resup (talk) 04:38, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The first position photo (the one still out the window) is taken at night. The other position (the photo here) sometime the next day... I explain their burning in more detail in another spot, under fires - linked above ... these are some of the victims that died other ways - looks like a bullet hole in one's chest. Belongs better here (or on a victims page) than there, so if the duplication is a problem...

Burned Later
Being actually burned to death, even in a burning building, is only so common. People will try to escape fire, and do well enough the smoke winds up doing them in instead. Usually the fire burns their dead bodies, if anything. But here in the Odessa massacre crime scene there are a few details suggesting these were deliberately and individually burned after death, likely in an attempt at coverup, and/or to sow the idea that, as Euromaidan PR's video puts it, the "Russian terrorists" were "burned alive." instead of, say, bludgeoned and shot to death before burning away the evidence. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Of all the bodies seen in or right at the stairwell (at least 11) only five are widely shown, and those are the badly charred ones. Correlating lots of photos and some video, it seems these are on the 4th floor landing (just above the 3rd floor), where seen mostly in one set of positions, the two shown dragged a little ways down the stairs - but were originally in a different arrangement (composite view below) - those two flat on the landing, the others how they are, with one victim originally hanging out the window, as if he died in the act of climbing out (later seen back inside, laid in the corner). --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

In both views, we can see at least two victims - those same ones shown in the top inset - display rigor mortis, and signs of being dragged by the arms after it had set in. That is, they were dragged here before they were dragged the second time. According to Wikipedia, rigor mortis onset is usually 2-6 hours after death (a bit faster in warm conditions - like a fire), usually reaching maximum stiffness after 12 hours and relaxing slowly thereafter. By this, anyone killed at around 8 PM would be rigid from 10 PM forward for more than a day. The arms being flexible enough to take this position suggests it wasn' too far in - probably before midnight - and the burning (contracts muscles) helped lock the position. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Below, video clues suggest the burning was done as early as about 8:10 PM, quite possibly later, but probably no later two about 9:45. This to a building assault beginning at roughly 7:30. And to add, totes on the 2-hour rule for rigor mortis, asie from it not being an exact rule to begin with:


 * 1) less time than usual might be required in this case; rigor mortis onset is accelerated by heat, and there was very much heat unleashed in parts of the Trade Union hall that evening.
 * 2) It's possible the victims were somehow killed earlier in the day, either by a forward group at the TUH, or transported there. Onset would then have to be measured against that time, not the known assault. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The pile of junk barricade seen here on the right might make sense for building defenders to make, to keep the 4th floor lightly shielded. But it seems (from the limited views here) to block only one side, which would do no good. This could have been made by the scene-arrangers to tell a story (of stupid barricade-making?). In the one case, furthest to the right, it almost seems the debris was piled onto the victim's head (unclear).

The other victim, furthest down the stairs, has a burnt face and hands, and it seems separately had fire set to his mid-torso. It burned away his shirt and lap of his pants, ignited some belly fat, and then just bubbled up his abdomen for a while and fizzled out. When the fire punched a neat bullet-looking hole in his right chest is not so clear. Sometime before rigor mortis set in, and before he was burned. ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The horribly charred body nearest the railing was perhaps carried here (face-down) by two people, one holding each wrist. That one was apparently burned already, making the second burn a little too efficient; he (or she) stands out from the others who supposedly died right here from not-the-mob. In the original arrangement, the one hanging out the window raises questions. Supposedly he passed out just then from the chloroform and had the fire burn away his pants and melt the soles of his shoes. I imagine there is no visual match from the outside of a guy hanging out the window while a fire rage - perhaps it was too dark by then? How long after the above photos did he try to climb out? Or was he just put there and burned at a later time? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC) (and face-down note added Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC))
 * On the last point there ... this video I'd never seen before, 21:00, shows a slightly later scene where that guy is hanging out of just that window, as fire rages. Found the video and the stills used here] with many screen grabs and notes in Russian (will be citing for other points). Firemen on a small ladder try to extinguish him with some water spreyed up (no truck yet...) So, this victim anyway was not planted later, but put himself there, or was planted, during the blaze. But he's not one of those with arms sticcking up or out like handles on luggage. Although the scene seems mixed, that point remains the same. If they were dragged and burned at this time, around 8-8:30, they must have been murdered hours earlier. Odessa TU Hall Fires Windowvictim.png

To note, most victims showing any burning tend to be to the head and upper body - some have heads only blackened by some specific flash-fire aimed right there (noses are sometimes burned away). However, those same often have hands even more burned, down to the bone (see here), as well as red-burned skin everywhere it was exposed (waistline, etc.) So this apparent clue might be related instead to something they were hit with when alive and still shielding their faces, and not related to post-morten torching. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The burned face-and-hands, mainly one victim ... the common red waistline I decided is from people pulling up shirts as filters, amid intense fire ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:01, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Previous discussion of this concept, from May: File talk:Odessa burnt bodies.jpg - on a photo I stilla haven't found confirmation for - not certain it even belongs. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no steady cam on the stairwell al night, but a brief overhead view with a pro TV news camera is available. This Channel 1 (tv.od.ua) video, filmed (starting at?) 9:55 PM by the title, looks slightly down from a high fire ladder or crane into those windows, with the one victim still hanging out on the right. Firefighters are working the landing, with others descending from there. A strangely bright and energetic fire continues high up and to the left - corresponding perhaps to the pile of debris "barricade" on the right (as seen from inside). The firefighters don't do anything to extinguish this. Is it just some kind of gas lamp for lighting? Seems a bit extreme if so ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Note how they're bending down as if doing special work on something on the floor, like the other four bodies would be. Suggested is a no-later-than planting and apparently burning time for those. At just before 10 PM it's a rather late time; we can see firefighters put out the one victim as a first order of business around 8:15 PM, and the Rada report says the overall building fire was declared extinguished by 8:50 PM. So what are they just now doing, an hour later, in about the spot they started at almost two hours ago? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, if these other four bodies were placed and torched after the one scene and shortly before this one - say at 9:30 - it could mean they're early massacre victims from about 7:30-7:45, with time for rigor mortis to set in. (the audio track there includes a victim's ringing cell phone, but that's carryover audio from the following scene of an un-burnt victim in another stairwell.) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

---

Head Smashed after Falling
(apparently not) It's said ten people died after falling/jumping from windows, I thought all out the back stairwell's windows (11 fallers counted there, one or so app. survived) but there's at least one other spot, not widely seen. In the Hromadske video, at 30:15 shows what should be one of these ten fatalities in a different spot, at the building's north end, and several meters from any ledge (that is, he didn't just fall but mustv'e been dragged, maybe away from a beating) A heavyset man in dark clothes, he seems likely dead but possibly still alive: badly bloodied face, right hand, and shirt, ears pouring blood, but fairly little of it is on the pavement yet, and his head is fully intact-seeming. The signs say he was inside with the smoke before: smoke-stained hands, darkened skin at waistline (probably from pulling up shirt as a filter). The next scene isn't certain but seems to show the same victim in the same area, with most of the view blocked by helpers, now frantically trying to resuscitate the man. One big difference that makes me wonder about the match is a much larger pool of blood around the body's head end and new small bits of (brain-colored?) tissue (top frames at right). The bottom view is from one of Dumskaya's short videos Куликово поле в огне (0:52) where a better view appears. We can see the clothing match - this is the first victim - and that at least part of his head remains, if not all of it. Still, a meter-wide pool of blood with spots on the edges emanates in most directions, like he didn't have when we first saw him and his certainly intact head. Any tissue is concealed by the view, a shield, some rocks. Still, this recalls witness [|Vania] who had said of the Euromaidan assailants "They finished off the wounded. With headshots. They jumped on their heads." This might be confirmation of that claim, although not too certain with the middle part somehow missing. The many wet spots on the sides, clearly footprints. Just walking through his blood, or did some of these people step into his head? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Pity there's no scale, to see where he is in relation to the building. There was at least ONE person getting around bashing unconscious people with a baton, that could split a skull.KatKan (talk) 04:04, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The Hromadske video is pretty clear on the general spot, right near the north/northeast corner, near that exit, a few meters out. The one corner you'll see police lines formed, it seems to be, just after this incident. The one guy Goncharevsky was seen in back and in front (north end though), and may have passed this way. But he wasn't the only one smashing people, I think... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And to note, the location leads me to wonder about another (?) person seen at that corner, right above that exit, trapped on the lowest ledge at least five minutes. The 24:17 video shows him, about 3:00-8:00, seemingly dropped down from the third floor - then gone by next view about 10:00, last seen (in another video) trying to smash in a window to get back inside the building. Seemed possibly like a staged performance by one of their own ... Molotov cocktails repeatedly tossed near, but not at, M. Volkov shooting nearby, and nearly towards that guy, but not quite at him ... if the clothing is consistent, this could be the same guy (build seems unclear, maybe leaner than that - does the victim's jacket have a hood? Etc.) I'll leave that open for now, anyone, feel free to close it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That scene is probably too early to connect to this... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Update: the victim's brains are not on the pavement; that was my dark imagination running away with me. The Tracca E-95 video shows a clearer view at 19:44, and apparently after the other two scenes, sets the area better, and clarifies this is all the same victim. The same senior paramedic who examines Lt. Fuchedji is trying chest compressions, checking eyes, probably calling dead right after. The man's head is intact, his brains inside, and he seems little different than he did at first except slightly cleaned-up and dried a bit, so actually less horrible. Still, there's a lot of blood out his head end, out his ears, and it's not clear that's all from the fall (although it could be, depending - if he landed right there, following one mighty-ass jump/toss...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Another update: high-res video located: Fell from the window of the House of trade unions, Pro-Russian activist A bit further to the front (east) than I thought (or seen later) but still quite some leap is implied if they say this is where he fell. Back of skull likely a bit broken, lots of blood from the back. They're trying to revive him with that sniffing liquid in the brown bottle... At this same time, people are being coaxed down out the windows, maybe after something had made them hesitate... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * He falls from the window with an audible thud. Several people then go over to him, then grab by arms and legs and carry to the position where they start to wipe blood from his head. You can see this if you keep concentrating on that spot on the screen and ignore the camera moving around. If he fell face down he could easily have bleeding from the ears. I can't see anyone near him except the ones who try to save him. Then if you play it again and watch the guy in the greenish top climb down, you see him running of to the right, and that is what the camera pans to try and catch (without success). In the long Goncharevsky video near the end, several who climb down the scaffolding get beaten but a woman starts yelling  Leave Them Alone and someone(s) then seem to guard them against would-be beaters. But I think that was in a different area, this side they seem to be all trying to help. KatKan (talk) 13:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, will take a closer look and prob. verify that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, I look silly. The video was a huge size format and didn't play right (was like a slide show, online and in the odd huge copy I could save before all saving was stopped...) so I didn't even know it showed the fall. I figured out now how to see and hear it (smaller copy made), go slow and backwards on Quicktime, etc. Some fallers are alive, but this one I doubt it. He falls passively, no sign of trying to correct his posture, and ends in the worst position. It seems he landed right on his head, at the spot one would if just falling. He's visible laying there, no sign of movement by then anyway. Head smashed then ... a nano-second before the end of the fall. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Considering what we've established, two further things about this victim and his fall I'd like to mention: First, the blood down his shirt and on his right hand as well as face could be from the dynamics of how he landed. But it's also consistent with him bleeding from the face before his fall, when gravity makes it drip onto his shirt, and wiping away gets it on his right hand. So maybe a victim of violence before he decided to fall... Next: There's one upper window in the north end (I though, trying to follow) in the Flagneck Tour Video, maybe a Channel 1 video - fair among of blood across the jagged glass ledge. Did this or another jumper just heft his bloody ass onto that glass and roll himself out the window, after a small snag from that glass that grabs like velcro and rips like hell? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Victims carried out
The head of the Russian State Duma Committee on Foreign Affairs Alexei Pushkov says
 * ''We know that in Odessa about 116 dead, we know that in Odessa have seen and heard, as handed down the corpses from the rear entrance of the House of Trade Unions, trying to hide the real number of people who were burned, strangled and shot in the House of Trade Unions."

One of the Denis Cherkasov videos shows about 10 smashed bodies carried out in the rear of the building, after the rear entrance is set on fire. I have a copy of the video, but now found a mirror on-line. I do not know if the people are alive or dead. Even if alive, they would die in a few minutes in the burning building, if left there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Одесса, 2 мая, Куликово поле, Дом профсоюзов с обратной стороны. Вынос раненых и убитых. (Odessa, May 2, Kulikovo Field, House of Trade Unions on the reverse side. Removal of the wounded and dead.)


 * I can add notes on this, been meaning to. Let this somehow remind me... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Notes: Mostly from the 24-minute video (18-19:00) and my VS4 I counted 12 people hitting the ground in this area in a very short span. Two jump from lower window ledges and walk away fine, the other 10 seemingly all fell from a height (though the falls are mostly unseen). Three fall almost right on the two who come down safely, the only ones we see fall. One of those three seems to be alive from the cry heard at impact (unless a dead body fell on a living one, possible). An 11th faller at least is recorded a bit later (22:55). Some cheer and applaud, others carry away the body. (I've only seen one apparent faller anywhere else at the site but here, and that's at the building's north corner (see - though it likely was not) --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

There are at least three people in the heap that are alive and conscious, the rest are either unconscious, unmoving that we see, or dead. One of the non-moving (on the left) was seen being beaten by a perp dressed just like V. Goncharevski. The three who move: 1) burly guy in camo and St. George ribbon, internal injuries 2) striped shirt, can't stand up 3) as identified (see above) regional deputy Vyacheslav Markin - able to stand with help, died later with a head wound he doesn't seem to have while at the massacre site.  So at least one who didn't die did anyway, the other two, and the rest, unclear. Between this spot, the guy at the north end (total 12), and anyone else, officially ten people died from falling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Did the victims just accidentally fall out of the windows, or where they thrown out? I looked closely at the "hi-res" video of the guy. I think he was thrown out, although we never see him until he exits the window. I think we may be facing something typical of rebel atrocity videos: the collection of scenery we get to see shows a lot of gory detail, but leaves out the crucial parts. I find it hard to imagine that with all the footage available there is not a single one that shows the falling victim in a dangerous or difficult position before the fall. This can be achieved with heavy scrutiny and censorship of the videos. The "hi-res" video is shot from behind a cloud of smoke and just happens to pan away from the window on exactly the critical moment. (One can wonder if all the panning reflects real camera movements or was it created in post production by clipping a movable low-res frame from a hi-res original?) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:52, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Body removal video  has other curious video and  audio :

1:48 We see a heavy-build man (= hbm), and a policeman on/with a cell phone

Policeman cannot be clearly seen and resembles Fuchedji; while hbm resembles M****. They are surrounded by troopers.

Crowd confronts hbm and shout insults. 1:52 hbm blocks a blow thrown by a man in the crowd (seems a piece of cake for hbm to block )

2:06 "damn you" can be heard from the crowd

2:12 man to hbm "it was you who supported Kulikovo"

2:14 man to hbm " you are a (son of a ) bitch"

2:16 man to hbm "you are a (fucking?) bitch," man makes light body contact, which is blocked

2:18 firecracker goes of; hbm jumps back a meter or so, not loosing his composure, and noticing another man to his left with a stick at the same time. (There is another man with a sapper shovel nearby, who gets a telling off and ordered to stand back by a trooper).

2:26 hbm (surprised gesture) I was helping wounded out of the building

2:29 man to hbm again: "damn you"

2:33 another, shorter, man to hbm :"it was you who did it, you!!!"

3:00 we see a policeman on a cell phone but not his face --Resup (talk) 06:07, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Punishing Survivors
Those who got out alive continued to suffer and die in different ways. As widely noted, those who jumped, fell, or climbed out were usually beaten further by the mob, some past the point of death. As less noted, some activists went into hiding to avoid being killed later, and some were hunted down and killed anyway. Others have faced legal prosecution for refusing to die on May 2, not that this is the charge as leveled: International Action Center reported that Borotba (anti-Fascist) activist Vladislav Wojciechowski was arrested on charges of terrorism over explosives (planted?) in his apartment, was beaten, and taken to SBU headquarters. Earlier, he had survived the Trade Union hall massacre, but "suffered a traumatic brain injury at the hands of neo-Nazi militants." As IAC puts it:
 * Wojciechowski’s arrest shows that the U.S.-backed Petro Poroshenko regime is not really interested in ending the civil war in Ukraine, but instead continues to persecute its political opponents.

And it shows how they continue looking for support for their story that Odessa's victims were terrorists who had it coming, and did it to themselves. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Poison Gas?

 * ''Moved to Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Chemicals

Investigations and Talk
I'd like to organize a chronoligical review of at least some high points - investigations and relevant commentary/events --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * First, a chronology of investigations, new evidence release, statements from relevant people (involved and/or powerful), etc. but not random comments from whoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 3: Fatherland MP Yulia Tymoshenko blames Russia: ""He (Putin) commits his terrorist acts against every Ukrainian. By planning and executing special operations like the one that took place in Odessa yesterday, he wants to set our people against each other. He wants that we shoot at each other, that we kill each other, that we split the country, that we put our children under fire." ITNsource


 * May 8: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch jointly call for an impartial investigation, relating what was reported so far, with questions about police response and other issues. They put the onus on Kiev to be fair, and note their promise to work with experts from Europe and Israel. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 12 - formation of May 2 Committee. The May 2 Committee, a panel of civic leaders, journalists, experts coordinated by social worker Sergey Dibrov. A May 19 report has Dibrov explaining (it seems) it wasn't to replace official investigations but to do their own work since people shouldn't just trust it. Pro-federalists opposed the inclusion of journalist Yuri Tkachev, but Dibrov and others insisted he stay for a balanced view. Tkachev earlier said, in an interview with DW, that federalists started the trouble, and the first victim was on the Euromaidan side. The latter is apparently undeniable, the former seems true on the surface but is well worth questioning) while noting the Maidanistas did come armed and ready to be provoked ...  "We want to show what happened and when, having painted events by the minute," said Dibrov. They planned to annoince their first findings in early June. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 13? Something from the Ukrainian Rada http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/1264-vii --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This should announce the creation of a "Temporary investigative commission of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to investigate the facts of death of people in the cities of Odessa, Mariupol and other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk Ukraine (TSC created May 13, 2014 consisting of 10 deputies, elected chairman of the TSC MP from the "Party of Regions" Anton Kisse (Кіссе), deputy - MP from the Union "Fatherland" Alexander Dubovogo..." (as mentioned by MFA July 23)  Interesting tidbit: " Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Dubogovo (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2..." (Antimaydan Odessa)--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * May 21: As covered below, Kiev's national security and defense council chief - and possible Odessa ATO and thus massacre organizer - Andriy Parubiy, spoke up in an interview to Euractiv: "Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk." They started it, the middle is vague, and "when the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions," it was from a chemical separatists had stored there; "when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed." He has experts - hired professional ones of some type - who say this, he's not making it up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * June 2: Party of Regions has started an investigation www.newsru.ua/ukraine/02jun2014/efram.html --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf This calls Odessa "the most serious single incident of significant loss of life in Ukraine since the killings on Maidan," and spends several points relating Ukraine's favorite "they started it!" football scuffle story. As for the core, massacre portion, they found that:
 * June 15 UN report
 * "...between 6.00 – 6.30 p.m., (federalists) decided to take refuge in the nearby Trade Union Building. ... At around 8.00 p.m., the “Pro-Unity” activists entered the Trade Union Building ... During the evening a fire broke out in the Trade Union Building."

Acknowledgment of entry seems like a big step forward. Otherwise, they nearly parrot Kiev's points, while offering oblique hints that riled-up right-wingers had something to do with it (" the Government must pay particular attention to ensure social media is not used for hate speech or incitement to hatred. ") and that the government is blocking oversight of its dubious investigations:
 * ...six official investigations have been established. The main bodies undertaking such investigations are the Ministry of Interior (MoI) and the State Security Service in Ukraine (SBU). It is with regret that the HRMMU reports a lack of cooperation from both governmental bodies, particularly at the central level with the HRMMU, which has been preventing the HRMMU from conducting a proper assessment of the progress made. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

http://larouchepac.com/node/31287
 * July 9 hearing in Europpean parliament
 * Latvian Member of the European Parliament Tatjana Zdanoka organized a hearing on the May 2 Odessa massacre, on July 9 in Brussels, despite disruptions staged by pro-Ukrainian coup groups. "Our objective is to demand an international investigation of the events in Odessa on May 2. Conclusions will be drawn only on the basis of qualified evidence collected by experts. It is my personal opinion that one of those conclusions will be the urgent need to put [Ukrainian fascist paramilitary group] Right Sector on the list of terrorist organizations." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

PACE (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) co-rapporteur for the monitoring of Ukraine Marietta de Pourbaix-Lundin (Sweden) said "I welcome the work done on this issue by a group of civil society experts and journalists, which deserves the full support of the authorities and the international community, and urge the international community to provide expertise to assist the investigations," ... “The local population is asking many questions about these events, which need clear answers in order to avoid distrust and possible tension." --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Same track, July 16 ria.ru:

http://mfa.gov.ua/ua/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26014-shhodo-khodu-rozsliduvannya-vipadkiv-nasilystva-v-odesi "On the progress of investigations into violence in Odessa" (from Ukrainian) Ukraine sough an "unbiased," investigation with experts "to facilitate its comprehensiveness and impartial nature." They were confident that "unbiased coverage denies accusations Russian side to the so-called "Neo-Nazi massacre" in Odessa May 2, 2014." They outline six ongoing investigations. The ones they like emphasize they started it, "causing clashes and social chaos," citing the June UN report in support, and at the end it was "pro-Ukrainian activists" who labored "to save the protesters "for federalism" in a fire at the House of Trade Unions." All the details in between get sort of glossed over. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * July 23 Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs
 * "Experts Odessa Regional Office forensics found that none of the victims died from injuries that could indicate a beating."
 * They speak of "organization of mass riots and killings by the local officials and law enforcement agencies to discredit the central government in Ukraine"
 * "Prior to the tragic events of May 2, 2014 in Odessa led another blatant interference of the Russian side in internal political development of Ukraine, attempt to impose stereotypical belief (artificially imposed so-called Kremlin "South-eastern" and identity ) ... undermining state sovereignty ..."
 * "In addition to the events of May 2, 2014, the Kremlin's repeated attempts to destabilize the situation in Ukraine took place in the south and east of our country."
 * "In Odessa implementation of this plan was thwarted active participation of the patriotic local population strongly rejects the artificially imposed so-called Kremlin "South-eastern" and identity under any circumstances and is not exposed to provocations directed by Moscow separatist propaganda."

“In this context I would like to pay attention to the necessity of a speedy legal decision, concerning criminal proceedings over the tragic events in Odessa in early May,” UNIAN news agency quoted Yarema as saying." Ria.ru
 * August 5 "Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaly Yarema on Saturday urged to speed up the investigation of the May 2 tragic events in Odessa, which claimed the lives of at least 48 people and injured over 200.


 * August 9: emergency calls transcript obtained by Odessa news website dumskaya.net and released to the media: RT report suggests the 38 minute delay in fire response is troubling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * August 12: RT reports Odessa slaughter survivors reveal their side of story in intl photo exhibit
 * (Survivors) have organized international photo exhibits in order to convey the events with a new clarity denied to viewers by Kiev.
 * ''In order to present the May 2 events in a manner that only a witness and a survivor could, two members of the Rodina (Motherland) group have formed a coalition called ‘Remember Odessa, Stop Fascism’.

Sergey Marchel and Oleg Muzyka contacted a number of European anti-fascist groups for the purpose of setting up a photo and video diary of what had gone down during the fire and the subsequent storming of the Fourth Regional Department of Internal Affairs in order to free the remaining anti-Maidan prisoners.''
 * Petri, take note --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The resulting exhibition was presented to the European public throughout the early summer, and has gained widespread popularity. The Berlin exhibit saw the biggest crowds, its ZDF and ARD networks covering the event, which consisted of over 50 photographs made by witnesses of the Odessa events.
 * “The events of May 2, 2014, on Odessa’s Koulikov Field must not be forgotten. And those among us who were spared must do everything in our power to ensure that our friends and close ones’ deaths were not in vain,” Muzyka said addressing the press and visitors.
 * “Eyewitnesses have traveled together with this exhibition, so that the spectators could get a first-hand account of how things went down… unarmed people were burnt alive in what was a pre-planned action,” Marchel said.
 * ... The show has been a big success, visited by journalists, public figures – even politicians. The creators are especially pleased with the effect the show had on the guests. It could clearly be seen that the guests were moved by scenes they had not imagined could take place in the heart of Europe.--Caustic Logic (talk) 01:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * September 2: "Remember Odessa" - message on thousands of black baloons released in Odessa and various European cities to make four months since the massacre. RT, Sept. 3:
 * “The investigation has been ongoing for four months, without any results. Those responsible are being let go, while the innocent people are being locked up in prisons. Odessa’s people do not agree with this,” the organizer of the Voice of Odessa group, Svetlana Naboka, told RIA Novosti. According to the activist, local police attempted to prevent the protesters’ voices from being heard, removing a loudspeaker used by them. This caused a brief confrontation with officers, who she claimed beat some of the activists attempting to block a police vehicle carrying the equipment away. The protest, however, went on peacefully. “We want to show that people should not be afraid no matter what,” Naboka said. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * September 4: "On September 4 Chairman of the commission of the Odessa regional council Grigory Yepur said that the commission had disbanded itself. The investigation has been conducted by the Prosecutor's General and the Interior Ministry of Ukraine which are not accountable to deputies of a local level, Yepur said." (Itar-Tass, Sept. 8) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)


 * September 8: Parliament Investigation releases report. See here --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Very worried about Odessa.
Very worried about Odessa. It is a very special place, should be on UNESCO list or something. Supposed to be free-spirited, independent, lots of humor, lots of creativity, all of that in a unique way. Culturally/ethnically, a unique mix of Russian, Jewish, and Ukrainian. Right now, I fear it's like being in nazi controlled ghetto. I mean, if going to Ani Lorak concert is a riot police event, while local human rights, or that May 2 group   watch (is there any difference? ) begs for hvylia and/or Fruchtedi lynching, and annoying politician is punched in the nose and than asked to withdraw police report at a press conference, and public order is maintained by Right Sector gangs (we seen their press conference) than how  all that  is different from being in a ghetto? Current investigations are all hopeless (some actually scary). Foreign involvement is not there. While Israel+Germany+UK+USA is a good list of countries, there are enough individual asses in any of the 4 to fill a room, so how this individual expert thing is supposed to work is not clear, the devil is in the detail on how they are selected, and also where they will do their work ( intimidation/pressure issue), and how transparent is this work to other experts. It really should be international investigation with Ukraine, Russia, + possibly Israel (if practical---this is very tricky and sensitive) being major stakeholders, + possibly Brighton Beach, NY, USA and other expatriates. Arranging something like that is going to be very difficult, but without it, I do not believe there will be any credibility or any reconciliation. Unfortunately, truth and reconciliation process never happened in that region, after every upheaval,revolution, civil war of 20's, Stalin purges, follow-up KGB straitjacket, there was very slow,  peace meal, truth, and very slow reconciliation. Like a family when something bad happened, and it is not really resolved, but they still live together and adapt to this, and when enough time pass, you may feel good and positive. --Resup (talk) 12:14, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Odessa-mama
Я вам не скажу за всю Одессу, Вся Одесса очень велика, "I'll not tell you about all Odessa, all Odessa is just too big"

"Шаланды, полные кефали," song performed by Mark Bernes, playig a soldier from Odessa in the movie "Two solgers" (1943) --Resup (talk) 16:07, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Western analogies for cultural Odessa
Sharp-witted types, Joan Rivers, Don Rickes. To a lesser degree, other actress-shmaktress, like Mila Kunis, Scarlett Johansson. George Gershwin, Broadway composers and entertainers. Those who are into science and math, too (at least can sort things out, not just showtime thing). NOT_Odessa: Bandera, small village types (shtetl excluded), etc.--Resup (talk) 13:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

UNHRC REPORTS
UNHRC has mentioned Odessa in several reports. Mostly it sums up the problems with all the numerous other investigations going on. the July one starts on page 22 (pdf). The next report, due out today, has been delayed for a week,unexplained. KatKan (talk) 04:39, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Fixed group name, and actually I'm still confused if this is UNHRC or not - technically its OHCHR (Office of High Commissioner for Human Rights) with two UN agencies of similar name, one connected to OHCHR and one not - I think. The June report has been considered and cited here - it's a bit vague, but at least acknowledges the mob did enter the hall as well as surrounding it (see here. They noted "with regret" that the official investigators in Kiev refused to cooperate on oversight of their investigations (limiting details they'd have to examine in detail - see Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Investigations). And it mentioned that social-media hate-speech, incitement to violence, was a problem in this case. New report will be all new. You should review it here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:09, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

OSCE non-observers
I knew from MH17 times OSCE are chickens, but this is ridiculous. I caught a glimpse of their vehicle in a video, so checked their report for the day. This is it in its entirety: ''In Odessa the situation deteriorated. SMM monitored clashes. Smoke grenades and rocks have been thrown and shots fired. Riot police, ordinary police and Special Forces have been deployed to separate the opposing groups. SMM observed about 400 football fans from the “Chornomorets” and “Metalist” (Kharkiv) football teams who held a rally in favour of Ukraine’s unity, about 600 metres away from the opponents of the government. SMM noted about 100 pro-unity activists in camouflage, with sticks and shields.

According to media reports and official Ukrainian statement, as for 22:00 on 2 May, the number of casualties was 37; about 200 people were injured among them 22 police officers. 130 people have been detained. This is the most significant clash in Odessa so far and is likely to increase tension and incidents over the weekend and in the run-up to the Day of Victory on 9 May.''

They must have run away as soon as things started happening. Chickens. They are meant to OBSERVE, how can the do it if they are NOT THERE? Won' even say what happened. So what's the chances of them pressing for any investigation? of this or of the mass graves they've been shown? KatKan (talk) 21:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Interior Ministry
From RT Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape, about the off-duty cop (I presume) shooting at the burning people and then claiming he was unarmed and they shot him ...
 * The Ukrainian Interior Ministry however offers a different version of events, saying the victims of the violent unrest started the fire themselves, when they began throwing Molotov cocktails from the upper floor.

Quiet rage hit me there. Quiet, knife-in-your eye rage. The "legitimate government" and its demon-infested friends like this there will keep saying things like this until they're accusing these "Russian terrorists" of putting themselves on those trains to the extermination camps. Hoping to run over the beautiful EuroMaidan activists with it, of course... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

National Review
Western mainstream media has been shy of addressing the details or of calling this a "massacre" or anything incendiary. Hm, incendiary ... But finally we see a denunciation of the brutal and calculated crime in Odessa, so long as it's asking...
 * Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre? He has certainly exploited it Robert Zubrin, National Review, May 13
 * in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself.


 * ''So the question is, did he? ""

Yeah, probably, huh? Let's hear the details on how. Oh, Zubrin has none. None whatsoever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The article he's written before contains a laughable CT that it's Putin with his filthy propaganda agents who's causing the overwhelming aversion of Europeans against fracking. Rest assured that I don't know anybody of any political stream who isn't against fracking since first having heard about it, just like against GMO food and comparable stuff. If you look at his company and the books he writes it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to saving humanity by helping us out of the dependency on oil with Mr. Zubrin's genius inventions is Vladimir Putin. ;o) --CE (talk) 09:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Andriy Parubiy

 * Ukraine official: Putin’s plans have failed - EurActiv, interview May 21: "Andriy Parubiy is a former commandant of Euromaidan. He spoke to EurActiv’s Senior Editor Georgi Gotev." He was somewhere for a meeting with NATO officials on how to fight the Russian plots against Ukraine. He shared many thoughts on how that works, from the anti-Fascit Maidan protests fired on by Spetsnaz snipers, to the Odessa Trade Unions provocation. The interviewer doesn't seem to like Parubiy, and asks him good/hard questions. Informative reading.
 * Q: How about this tragedy, this carnage in Odessa on 4 May?
 * Parubiy: This is a classic example of how Russia provokes, aiming at unleashing civil unrest and bloodshed. On that day, there was a football match. The fans had gathered and when they started marching with Ukrainian flags, a group of people started shooting at them with military guns. A few people were killed on the spot. In this group were citizens of Russia, which had come from Transnistria [a Russia-controlled breakaway territory of Moldova].
 * When the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions, experts have shown that the substance that provoked it had been stored there a long time ago. The House of the Trade Unions was a kind of headquarters for the separatists, it was not controlled by the authorities, nor by the opposition. And the substance that provoked the blaze was brought there during this period of time [when the separatists controlled the building]. I’m not saying that this substance was inflamed on purpose. But when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.
 * Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Stephen F. Cohen
The Silence of American Hawks About Kiev’s Atrocities Stephen F. Cohen, the Nation, June 30, 2014 (updated July 7 and 17):
 * On May 2, in this incendiary atmosphere, a horrific event occurred in the southern city of Odessa, awakening memories of Nazi German extermination squads in Ukraine and other Soviet republics during World War II. An organized pro-Kiev mob chased protesters into a building, set it on fire and tried to block the exits. Some forty people, perhaps more, perished in the flames or were murdered as they fled the inferno. A still unknown number of other victims were seriously injured. ... Kiev alleged that the victims had themselves accidentally started the fire, but eyewitnesses, television footage and social media videos told the true story, as they have about subsequent atrocities.

(expanded by Norman Pollack at Counterpunch) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: Cohen's been heavily criticized for this and other truthful reports about Ukraine. The Daily Beast hates him, and Slate reports: Stephen Cohen, Vladimir Putin's Apologist: The Nation just published the most outrageous defense of the Russian president
 * Cohen’s new article in The Nation hits a new low. The charge Cohen makes is a serious one: that the pro-Western Ukrainian government, aided and abetted by the Obama administration, the “new Cold War hawks” in Congress, and the craven American media, is committing “deeds that are rising to the level of war crimes, if they have not done so already.”
 * Ignored: Kiev's war crimes had also hit a new low. Not noticing that the article was put up in June and just updated twice, Slate complained in late July
 * Now, as the hostilities in eastern Ukraine have turned to the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, Cohen is at it again—this time, with a long article in the current issue of The Nation indicting “Kiev’s atrocities” in eastern Ukraine and America’s collusion therein. The timing is rather unfortunate for Cohen and The Nation, since the piece is also unabashedly sympathetic to the Russian-backed militants who appear responsible for the murder of 298 innocent civilians.
 * No, Kiev with its war crimes and Buk launching system and motive to frame the rebels ... blames Russia. To note, the article chalks the recent war crime charges up to Putin's propaganda, gives no supports, and doesn't touch on the Odessa allegations, which is what matters for this page. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:29, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

David Frum
Former Bush speechwriter ("axis of evil") David Frum heard a version of events he passed on in an article for The Atlantic:
 * '...'The killing angered the pro-Ukrainians, who descended on the city’s trade union building, which pro-Russian sympathizers had earlier seized as their local headquarters. Odessa is a largely Russian-speaking city. It voted strongly for ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine’s 2010 presidential election. Yet speaking Russian does not automatically imply adherence to Russia and its authoritarian government. The political authorities in Odessa remain loyal to Kiev. Odessa is a port city that won’t have much of a future if severed from its Ukrainian hinterland. The building seized by pro-Russian elements is located at a distance from the city’s main institutions: It was a place to hide out in, not to govern from. ''
 * But it was a poorly chosen hideout: Set in a large parking lot, near a park, it was easily surrounded and besieged.
 * Police appear to have hung back uselessly from the violence at the trade union building. The Ukrainian police were systematically corrupted by the Yanukovych regime, and they command little respect from the public. Their main mission on May 2 seems to have been staying out of harm’s way. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Odessa Anti-Terrorism Operation?
In their opinions above, Parubiy and Kiev at large paint a very passive picture of their own role in anything that day. It comes across as pro-Russian and Russian people vs. other people, in a spontaneous action that didn't even do anything - the one group killed themselves and that was it. However, we've seen signs of coordination of something. Parubiy attended a meeting on it, then met with a man involved in the non-action, delivering the bulletproof vests he was seen wearing one of during the random-seeming events (for this and similar, see below ). This suggests covert management, meant to be concealed. So I'm still baffled by a statement attributed to Odessa's mayor, apparently in reference to the massacre itself.
 * “The Odessa anti-terrorist operation is legal”

Is it just taken out of context in the one place I can find it? The Ukraine Genocide and its Cheerleaders - an 'excellent article. But I cannot locate the original message for context, in English or Ukrainian. I thought I had seen it, as a tweet, from him? Is it interesting, his claim that the lynch mob had official backing (was "legal"), and is that why it's so hard to find now? Copies must be around ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Who staffed this ATO? What did they do, where and when? Why wasn't it clearly reported? What relation does it have to the mass murder that day? Two days later AFP reported Ukraine expands 'anti-terrorism' operation against pro-Russians. This mentions the overall anti-terrorist operation, and the Odessa incident (even described as "brutal violence," which is not how usually you describe an accidental self-immolation), but doesn't claim the latter was any part of the former. But it does pass on Parubiy's promise that his forces would now push an "active stage of the operation in other towns (other than - Odessa?) where extremists and terrorists are carrying out illegal activities." --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Interim president Oleksandr Turchynov seems to divorce the two: “I have signed a decree for two days of mourning in Ukraine for the heroes who died in the course of the anti-terrorist operation and also for those who died in the tragic events in Odessa.” (citing: Al-Jazeera - good reporting from the scene) --[[User:Caustic Logic|Caustic Logic] (talk) 10:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One source connecting the two - 3 May, Odessa: How a peaceful rally turned into anti-terrorism operation - is from Civic Solidarity, pro-good-things group. Their narrative starts with:
 * Russia continues attempts to destabilise ... with the help of diversionists and militants. ... in Odessa local inhabitants strongly repulsed an attack of armed pro-Russian militants. As the result 46 people died ... attack on a peaceful pro-Ukrainian rally ... pro-Ukrainian activists stood the attack and began a counter-attack ... According to witnesses, pro-Ukrainian activists tried to help people who barricaded in the building to get out, but the latter shot back in return.

Whatever planning and legality there was, the May 2 Odessa ATO is again passed off as an impromptu action by "local inhabitants" whose hand was forced by Russian scum. And with that forced hand, they again are portrayed as doing nothing, except to try and help stop the terrorists from killing themselves. But they failed, sadly, and then praised each other for the "liquidation" in "self-defense" of the "Colorado beetles" that, again, they didn't do! It was legal, and it didn't ever happen! --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (sorry I keep making the same points over and over - trying to curtail it. Also, this whole section is worth front-page treatment soon, with a bit of cleanup and maybe filling in some gaps) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

A fascinating May 18 Voice of Russia article gives some context:
 * Last week the Odessa regional council outlawed the presence of illegal armed groups on its territory, according to Itar-Tass.
 * The Odessa city authorities claimed they've removed the militants from checkpoints surrounding the city. "There should be no radicals on the city streets, that’s what I think about the Right Sector. I believe that this group is being funded by some people with an agenda. There is no ideology there, everywhere these guys show up the provocations begin," regional governor Igor Palitsa said.
 * ... However, former regional governor appointed by Kiev, Vladimir Nemirovsky, claimed that the presence of armed radicals in the city was necessary in order to "keep the local police under control." Following that statement, the self-appointed secretary of the Ukraine's Security Council, Andrei Parubiy, visited the radicals and provided them with body armor and other gear.

This must be where his quote is from, not May 2 - "illegal" armed radical groups were ordered to leave, and he argued the ATO ones, apparently the same Right Sector, etc. - were legal, and even necessary, given the threat posed by the "terrorists" and their collaborators in the police. Just when is still unclear - Parubiy's visit we know of to deliver vests was at the end of April. And as explained below, there was worry about and moves against the militants - by Odessa's police - back to early April. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Personnel
Who would have staffed an ATO-like operation that wasn't (officially) an ATO? A list forthcoming (see also: here) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Hurwitz and Co.
Here's an interesting bit claiming to ID politically-connected men seen on video, approvingly, at the crime scene. I found at a discussion forum seeming to come from elsewhere (some signs of auto-translation). However, I can't yet find where. No hits found in Russian or Ukrainian with these names/words/times. Nothing in English, other than this source, appears in a Google search. And whatever the source, until it can be verified as a likely visual match, each claim is just a possible lead. Anyway, citing the 24:17 video of the attack on the Trade Union Hall this posting by Anatoly Shari, it says:
 * from 02:00-02:50 in the frame comes Yuri Borshenko (man with a stick) - 2:34 he commands, "Guys, go right!" - Dossier: Yuri Borschenko is a member of the electoral headquarters of Edward Hurwitz.


 * 14:58 in the frame Roman Deviatov (passing people) - Dossier: Roman Deviatov is a member of the electoral headquarters of Edward Hurwitz.


 * 15:30 on the video appears Andrei Yusov - Dossier: Andrew Yusov - head of the regional organization "UDAR" and the head of the field staff Hurwitz


 * 16:10 - 16:12 in the frame Sergei Gutsalyuk, assistant secretary of the National Security and Defence Parubiy Andrew (sic), who was on May 2 in Odessa.

This Edward Hurwitz is clearly implicated too, despite not showing up himself with a club. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Former Mayor of Odessa and member of the Rada http://en.slovoidilo.ua/person/Gurvicz-Eduard-Iosifovich.html and as you can see which way he leans. Seems too fat to go to a fight.
 * Awwww isn't this sweet? here he is with Poro and Vitali Klitschko visiting an injured someone in the Odessa Jewish hospital on May 3 KatKan (talk) 22:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Sergei Gutsalyuk

 * The scene said to include Sergei Gutsalyuk includes a guy I was wondering about, seen talking with police. I looked into it and decided that's probably him, reportedly Parubiy's deputy, overseeing (unofficial, but not-really-hidden) operations. Another article says he's the one seen clearly at 17:31 in the video, so the bookish-looking guy I meant. This says "Another colleague Hurwitz, one of the leaders of the Party "hits" (Udar) in Odessa Sergey Gutsalyuk also seen near the House of Trade Unions, with it clearly has to do with the leadership of storming: at least it was with him discussing the police to create a corridor to evacuate people from the building. (clearly seen on 17:31). At this time, under the building and inside it goes bout, good video shootings. But Hurwitz colleague does not seem bothered or discouraged by what is happening." (That's the part where the stairwell fire suddenly erupts and then people start falling) A 2010 photo of " Сергей Гуцалюк" (as spelled in Cyrillic) - it seems consistent if not a clear match (seen racing Colorado beetles haha.) Check out this awesome quote from a month later during violent Russian embassy protests allegedly put down with excessive force by Odessa's police: "They (the police) shouldn't be here. We said from the very beginning that we were not going to destroy anything or burn anything," said Sergei Gutsalyuk." (ITN June 16)

Andrei Yusov
OK, this is Andrei Yusov, poor thing apparently someone tried to shoot him last year (but missed and got someone else instead). pics and story KatKan (talk) 01:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Says he was shot at recently, this year, over his involvement in May 2. Could be, but also doubtful... I believe the Rada report had identified Yusov as the activist who called for an attack on Kulokivo Field, but the final report cut his name and just blamed "some Euromaidan activists." Member Klitchko's Udar party (Udar means 'punch drunk" :) party. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Those who know how to punch, may also have a clue how not to. --Resup (talk) 12:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Vsevolod Goncharevskiy
Already discussed below as a perpetrator of May 2 violence - - Vsevolod Gonscharevskiy (or VG, a good translit of Всеволод Гончаревский). But he also seems to have a hand in the organizational end. As the "viral video" or article noted, he's seen on video marching on May 2, discussing body armor for an action on Kulokivo Field - he knows the details on that. Bulletproof vests were distributed at the end of April by NSDC chief Parubiy. VG may move in such circles... (mainly let's cover that here, thug details below) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)


 * http://tretiy.tv/25152 Oct 3 (orig auto-translate submitted) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * ''New details in the case of Vladimir Rondine. It turns out that the millionaire close contact with one of the participants of the second massacre in May Vsevolod Goncharevskim.

Rondine and Goncharevskogo an old friend. In 2004, the businessman running for the people's representatives. And that's when Goncharevsky became technical candidate Rondine. Voted for him only 19 people, but he gave his patron representation in the committees. ''
 * However, even the loyal members of the commissions were not able to draw a desired result Rondine, and a millionaire failed miserably in the elections. Now Rondine again goes to parliament, but no longer in business interests, but simply to get immunity. Rondine is important to avoid liability for the company's "High Rise Constructions."
 * Recall construction firm went bankrupt, leaving a multi-million dollar debt. Rondine is instead to pay off investors and partners, and led all the assets to another company. By the way, by "High Rise Constructions" led all the same fellow Rondine - Vsevolod Goncharevsky. Now he has a more serious problem: Goncharevskogo suspected of active involvement in the riots on May 2. A person resembling Goncharevskogo Woo charred people who tried to escape from the House of Trade Unions.

Policing the Police?
On May 4, the police chief Petr (Pyotr) Lutsyuk (Lutsyk), was fired. Just why is a little confused although the events two days prior are obviously connected somehow. USA Today, May 5: "Odessa Police Chief Petr Lutsyuk was fired Saturday. Yatsenyuk said investigators will determine the cause of the breakdown in police and security forces that allowed the unrest to become so deadly. But he also promised that prosecutors will bring to justice all Russian-backed organizers and instigators." Human Rights Watch - jointly with Amnesty International calling for an independent investigation - found that "in reaction to the events of May 2, on May 4 Acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk blamed police officers for the failure to prevent casualties and fired the Odessa police chief and deputy chief." It's unclear from whom they should have acted against if they had moved rightly. Anti-war added he was fired "for what (Yatseniuk) called potentially criminal failure to stop the pro-Russia protests in the city." These had been ongoing for days or weeks. Until the right-wing mobs showed up, these actions consisted of peacefully gathering signatures for a peaceful referendum.

Human Rights Watch properly emphasized the question "why the policing that day was so inadequate, in particular why the police were apparently so unprepared for the confrontation,... police failed to take action to prevent the violence," again unclear who, as "both sides" are vaguely blamed. One witness told them “the police just stood there, they saw people fighting violently but said that they won't intervene until they receive an order to do so.” This might suggest the chief approved of the violence, or there may be another reason policemen would say that. Al Jazeera's reporter there noticed an "extremely angry crowd" demanding the release of over 100 massacre survivors who were arrested, "chanting fascists, fascists, fascists." This report added "the people there did not accept Kiev's version of events," but rather "place the blame on the government in Kiev," and seemed to feel the locals might blame the chief, although "the mourning period and firing of Lutsyuk would not reduce the tension in the city."

In fact, the latter should only add to the impression of a fascist takeover; it seems the police chief was an ally of the anti-Maidan camp, and had actively opposed the Fascist mobs that might also be the "anti-terror operation." Voice of Russia reported on a rally on May 18 to protest the massacre and oppose fascism - they cleared out "when rumors spread about radicals heading there to attack the federalization proponents once again," noting that these groups are "at the beck and call" of the Kiev-approved authorities. This article states of the police chief:
 * Petr Lutsyuk, Odessa police chief who was fired after the tragedy, demanded that the Right Sector militants sent from Kiev leave the city just before the riots started. "There were a large number of people in Kiev who were left without oversight and it was decided to send them to Odessa. We don’t need that here. They came to our city and they destabilize the situation here," he said while speaking to the regional council representatives on April 4.
 * Lutsyuk pointed out numerous conflicts between the radicals and locals, and reported about a large cache of weapons and munitions belonging to the latter that was discovered by police.

April 4 is not "just before" the May 2 riots, anyway, but it seems he had warned in advance of the dangers of these thug gangs. Then as soon as his overridden fears were proven truer than anyone imagined, he was sacked, it almost seems, for failing to take care of the victims himself before then. Civic Solidarity leans the same way, and says of Lutsyuk:
 * The head of the Odessa city police was fired as local law enforcements openly supported pro-Russian militants. There are photo and video reports that show police officers were present during a pre-attack briefing for pro-Russian activists. Ukrainian authorities do not rule out that representatives of law enforcement services will face criminal liability for the events in Odessa and Donetsk as some of the top officers are suspected to be recruited and paid by pro-Russian militants.

We've seen a photo, of course. - a policeman talking to the - whoever those really were. We don't know who this is or what they were thinking, but broadly, there are three options:
 * 1) an anti-Maidan police chief helping anti-Maidan militants for their (debatable) part in the violence
 * 2) a right-leaning officer organizing the fake provocateurs, presumably not meaning to be seen
 * 3) just another right sector type like the militants, meaning to be seen in his police costume to implicate the police in option 1 (or this and option 2 at the same time)

Also of interest is who Kiev replaced Lutsyuk with. A dissenting comment beaneath a lame faux-leftist report adds that Odessa's mayor "appointed a replacement who took part in the burning of the trade building." If they did pick a man involved in the lynch mob action, then they took two opportunities to reward it - '''first they picked the mob itself. ''' A May 5 Reuters report announced:
 * Kiev drafted police special forces to the southwestern port city of Odessa to halt a feared westward spread of rebellion. Ukraine said the Odessa force, based on "civil activists", would replace local police who had failed to tackle rebel actions at the weekend. Its dispatch was a clear signal from Kiev that, while tackling rebellion in the east, it would vigorously resist any sign of a slide to a broader civil war.
 * ..."The police in Odessa acted outrageously," Interior Minister Arseny Avakov wrote on his Facebook page. "The 'honour of the uniform' will offer no cover." He said he had sent the newly formed Kiev-1 force to Odessa after sacking the entire Odessa force leadership.

And, as Voice of Russia reported:
 * former regional governor appointed by Kiev, Vladimir Nemirovsky, claimed that the presence of armed radicals in the city was necessary in order to "keep the local police under control. Following that statement, the self-appointed secretary of the Ukraine's Security Council, Andrei Parubiy, visited the radicals and provided them with body armor and other gear. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: that's not the May 2 "mob" chosen to replace the chief, except for maybe - if they'd actually been sent two days earlier, had unofficially retired Lutsyuk for the day on the 2nd, etc. ... these things seem vaguely possible, worth considering. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * However, locals considered this Kiev-1 to be at least dangerously similar: the Reuters report adds:
 * The units Avakov referred to emerged partly from the uprising against Yanukovich early this year. That could fuel anger among the government's opponents, who accuse it of promoting "fascist" militant groups, such as Right Sector, that took part in the Kiev uprising over the winter.
 * Alexander, a man in his mid-20s who said he took part in the anti-Kiev actions, agreed with Avakov that police had done nothing. "But this special new battalion, they're stormtroopers from Western Ukraine who'll be hunting our people all over the city."

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC) Further bits on the outrageous police: UNIAN reported that a busload of pro-Russian activists had actually been stopped and arrested prior to events, but were released to cause their mayhem, on orders of a senior police officer who apparently sympathized with them. TSN reported that governor Nemirovsky claimed police were often bribed to take the anti-Kiev side, and supports this with images of some officers wearing the same red armbands as the violent militants, if lower on the arm (providing the inset image).

For their September report, the Rada investigation asked about the red-armbands on police. Officially, it now meant nothing, and implicitly, no prop-Russian police were gone after on this front (because those involved were actually quite anti-Rjussian and protected?) From an article in Ukrainian here (haven't read that part in the report itself yet):
 * "When asked why some police guards were on hand rewinds red tape, similar to what is used to identify activists" of Odessa druzhynы "police reported that when they are in stseptsi, for hands protection dress shields. Designated shields often slip, resulting in injury to your hand, so to fix, shields wrapped with tape, the color that was available, "- said in a draft report. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

And it went beyond the police into different sectors of civili society needing purged: citing Kyiv Post (paywalled) the Wikipedia Odessa Clashes page says:
 * Arsen Avakov, the interior minister, blamed local politicians for the events. People suspected of complicity include city council members, elections workers, police, relatives of former police officers, and active anti-Maidan campaigners. Twelve people were arrested, but their names were not disclosed.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Fucheji: Lutsyuk's deputy Dmitri Fucheji was in charge of the strangely inactive police force that allowed all the day's clashes and the massacre. Many consider him suspect, while he claims someone else set that up and he tried but failed to fix it, and later fled to Russian-friendly turf, blaming Kiev officials (plausibly) for the set-up. He and the police response are covered in a bit of detail our sub-(talk)page on the clashes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Katerinchuk
 * May 4: Major General Ivan Katerinchuk to become head of Odessa police
 * May 5: Itar-Tass
 * Right-Sector radicals and representatives of the so-called Self-defence of Maidan blockaded the building of the regional militia department here on Sunday night in protest at the release of federalizaton supporters who had been detained after the May 2 unrest. ... Major-General Ivan Katerinchuk, new chief of regional militia, who had been appointed to the position earlier in the day, came out of the building and addressed the militants. "I was in Maidan. I come out in favour of a united Ukraine and against the country's split. However, I was appointed (to the present position) only today (Sunday) and I need to look into what is going on here," Katerinchuk said.
 * He emphasized that the job of militia is "to avert an escalation of the situation and death of people, and do everything possible so that there would be confrontation any longer between various groups of protesters". In response, the radically-disposed participants in the meeting demanded that the new chief of Odessa militia reinforce the checkpoints set up around the city, and the removal of which had been demanded by his predecessor Colonel Pyotr Lutsyuk.--Caustic Logic (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

As for these civil society activist forces needed to police Odessa's pro-Russia police ... consider one of their apparent leading members of pre-Kiev-1 activity on May 2, "Flagneck" (as I dubbed him) below. He and others somehow seemed to have the police - and the fire department - "in check" already on May 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

In mid-August, Itar-Tass reports on the progress these groups had made keeping things in check: 'Revolutionary’ radicals engage in banditry in Ukraine Odessa — MP
 * Gunmen from the Right Sector group of ultranationalists and Maidan Self-Defense Force units engage in racketeering and banditry in south-east Ukraine’s Odessa under the guise of ‘revolutionary’ activity, an Odessa parliamentarian said in a letter on Monday.
 * In his official letter to the regional police, Oleg Markov demanded from law enforcement officers to look into this activity in the city, where dozens died in a fire started by Right Sector radicals and supporters from the Maidan Self-Defence Force on May 2. He also demanded setting up a working group involving public figures and media to control them. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Militants with red armbands

 * Andrey Ivanchenko
 * 3. Militants of unknown origin (hereinafter simply militants) - armed men in camouflage uniforms with red armbands, some with St. George ribbons.
 * Very suspicious that after the "disappearance" of militants with red armbands, appeared on the scene militants SS. I'm not saying that these were the same people. But ... Who were these "strange militants" - provocateurs who attacked the "ultras" and supporters of the Maidan? And it's the most exciting question! The key to an accurate understanding of what happened.
 * Eyewitnesses to Odessa carnage: Pro-Russian side, armed for war, started shooting – Olena Goncharova, Kyiv Post, May 3, 2014
 * Alexey Albu, leader of anti-fascist ‘Borotba’ Odessa, who was severely injured in the later events at the Trade Union Building, reports that the men with the red armbands were his fellow activists of the "Defenders of Odessa". In a more detailed report, Borotba members give their version of what happened that day:


 * On May 2, under the pretext of the so-called march ‘For unity of Ukraine’ (that was dated to football match ‘Chernomorets’ – ‘Metallist’) – the paramilitary squads of Ukrainian nationalist were brought together to Odessa from all over the country. They arrived by buses and by trains. From the very beginning – when they just started to gather on ‘Sobornaya’ square – among ordinary ultra-right fans too many well-equipped paramilitaries could be seen. They had shields, helmets, bats, traumatic and service weapons. Mostly - men about 30-40 years old who were evidently not football fans. Some of them had shields where it was written: ’14-th hundred of Maidan self-guard’. And these nationalist paramilitaries became the main striking force of bloody massacre of Odessa residents on ‘Kulikovo pole’ square.


 * In total there were more than thousand of nationalists that participated in the march and the slaughter that followed it. Local residents of Odessa were the minority among them, while the majority – far-right paramilitaries that were brought together there. They could be identified in particular by dialect (not typical for Odessa region), however many of them openly acknowledged and told where they came from. Local Odessa fans of ‘Chernomorets’ team have left the march at the moment when clashes started – they came just for traditional march to the stadium and when they realized that ‘visitors’ and provocateurs led them to beat local people – the majority of ‘Chernomorets’ fans (identified by black-blue scarves of Odessa club) – immediately left the so-called ‘peaceful’ march. [...]


 * When the column of nationalists marched along Grecheskaya street - a few (some 200-250 people) activists of local Odessa militia tried to stop them. But soon the opponents of nationalists were pelted with stones, bottles and stun grenades. There were heard gunshots. The activist of "Borotba" Ivan has got a gunshot wound into the belly from a military weapon. Then activists and members of Odessa militia tried to escape in the shopping centre "Athena" in the ‘Greek’ square. A crowd of far-right nationalists demanded to start a carnage against them. The far-right paramilitaries started immediately to prepare Molotovs on the square in order to set fire to the shopping center with barricaded Odessa militia members inside it. Police officers managed to save the lives of activists as they drove police cars directly to the entrance of the shopping centre.


 * Then the crowd of nationalist headed to the square ‘Kulikovo Pole’, where there was a camp of opponents to Kiev junta. Activists of ‘Borotba’, along with other activists and ordinary Odessa residents, were on duty that day in the protest camp. In total there were some 200 people in the camp and half of them - women and elderly men. [...]

Via Saker:
 * For those of you who can understand Russian, here is an extremely interesting report about the "red-banded" infiltrators seen amongst the pro-Russian, pro-junta and even the police


 * Бойня в Одессе результат провокации

Here is a full length version of the video used for proof of on both sides. The Odessa resistance first stands at barricade behind the police line. Police retreat undef Molotov cocktail fire and end up in the same line at the barricade. Resistance fires AK-47s from the merged "police" line. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * https://vk.com/video245916173_168423862

Anti-terrorist operation uses red armbands:
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlFLminrZgk#t=75

Via Antimaydan Odessa on VK:
 * ''Fuchedzhi told who was behind the unrest in Odessa Ex-Head of the Odessa Police Dmitry Fuchedzhi accuses deputy from the party "Fatherland" Alexander Oak (Александра Дубового) of organizing mass riots in Odessa May 2, 2014, which killed more than forty people. This he told the National Bureau of Investigation Ukraine. According Fuchedzhi Yulia Tymoshenko appointed Oak "looking" in Odessa. In this capacity, Oak secretly directs law enforcement agencies of the region. 2 May Odessa police had not stopped the unrest as a result of a number of indications Oak transmitted regional leadership through the cupola MIA Oleg Babenko, who is an assistant and "right hand" of the Oak. Babenko came from instructions not to intervene, as well as to collect all the police leadership to "meeting" and discuss common issues behind closed doors with mobile phones switched off. Prosecutor Igor Borshulyak Odessa region, ordered the police to release the arrested zachischikov bloodshed - it is also a man of the Oak. Fuchedzhi claims he is one of the entire leadership of the Odessa Police was May 2 not in the office and on the street with people and tried to stop the violence, negotiated, tried to reconcile the conflicting parties. In addition, he reminded of the duty to other policemen who were inactive on orders from above. In response, he heard: "Orders are orders, Lutsyuk ordered not to interfere with him, and there is no connection."

From a comment at the Vineyard Saker: "As always, the two sides in a conflict will report opposite truths. On a Czech site that I read because of its altogether civil exchange of wildly differing opinions, I found this article of an eye-witness of the Odessa massacre on the second of May."
 * ''  On the second of May, I went shopping in the streets in the centre, when I happened on a mass of people, about two to three hundred appearing from a side street. Most of them were between 25 and 35 years old, mostly if not wearing black, then wearing dark clothes and many of them wearing so called camouflage clothes.  It's also important to note that they were armed. Almost all of them were carrying sticks (baseball bats, tool handles etc.), but also chains, knives, even shields, helms, high army boots, arm and leg pads, perhaps even bulletproof vests, and almost all of them wore masks.  First I thought these must have been some sort of film cameos, but when I walked up to them, I noticed red bands around their arms (which reminded me of the militia from socialist times), but in all they made a rather criminal impression being led (and they were really being led!), like some sort of Sudeten German squad in the Czech borderlands, to assault a police station.  And when they started shouting in chorus slogans such as "Berkut" and "fascism won't prevail", it was clear who they were. Gently said, these were so-called pro-Russian so-called activists, in Czech "Russian nazis", chanting tragicomically "ФАШИЗМ НЕ ПРОЙДЕТ". (translated from Czech)  The writer goes on saying that he observed them heading to the football stadion, looking for a fight with the fans there. He describes how they flee from the crowd towards the building of the Labour Union, where they start throwing molotov cocktails to the people standing outside. All in all, a very different account from the video you link to.  In these times, it's difficult to get a clear understanding of what is happening in Ukraine. Many Czechs don't like Russians for historical reasons (also, many of them don't like Ukrainians either because they are willing to work for a third of the pay Czechs will accept), so I don't take this account at face value.  Still, it's worthwhile knowing what others are saying, I think.''
 * The last part of this account slips too far into "omniscient narrator" mode to be credible, but the first part I tend to believe - journalists were performed for, quite likely. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Odessa Anti-Maidan
In April Odessa had a non-violent defense force – non-violent as in non-lethal. In all physical appearances they were indistinguishable from the Maidan hundreds, carrying the same type of weapons, outfit and shields. I believe this symmetry was carefully calculated to avoid any escalation in the level of violence.

At first I had problems recognizing the anti-Maidan and assumed they were Maidan forces. Then I noticed the different colors and patches. In general, the resistance in Odessa avoided Russian colors and preferred Soviet colors. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Earlier clashes
 * 30.03.2014 Одесса - первое столкновение РМ с националистами (Odessa 30.03.2014 - first encounter with the nationalists PM)
 * Столкновение Майдана и Антимайдана в Одессе. (And Maidana clash Antimaydana in Odessa. – Photos) – April 10, 2014
 * ''Today in Odessa because of people's deputy and presidential candidate Oleg Tsarev, which Evromaydana activists blocked at the hotel, there was a fight. During the fight suffered at least one person.

Motives?

 * Ukrainian Defense News Network on Facebook
 * ''According to the reports, on April 28, 2014 the leaders of Kievan junta Olexander Turchinov and Arseniy Yatsenyuk received a confidential cable from Washington urging them to neutralize by any means the threat of secession of Odessa region. It was underlined, that in case of the lost control over this strategic port in the Black Sea, new Kiev's authorities would not be able to reckon on further US, EU and IMF diplomatic and financial support. At the same time the US intelligence agents in Kiev and Odessa were tasked to provide all necessary assistance and expertice to their Ukrainian wards to perform a special operation aimed to nip the anti-fascist resistance in Odessa.
 * (Petri submitted this, I think) --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: "The reports" unexplained. A comment there asked, and UDNN responded "An insider report from Kiev. We can't disclose the source." Could be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

--- This has deserved more attention for a while now. Maybe some new leak or something since can expand it. Also, I think motives, especially of this sort, should go on a sub-page, eventually, exploring the reasons for, signs of an off-the books Parubiy-run private-sector Anti-Terror Operation (along with the stuff currently in the section about that, like personnel) Thoughts for or against that? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:12, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Nah, Russia dunnit fersure. Proof: (a) same plan as Maidan, disguised as "other" then change sides while police purposely elsewhere then melt away, adding to terror by some bodies disappearing forever. (b) Maidan just shown to be done by Russia advising senior SBU. Therefore Russia all the way, see?


 * Parubly was actually seen at Odessa, and he's gone. How to tie him to the supposed email recipients? how to tie them to the supposed senders? Do we need to, at all? By overplaying it, they've probably managed to destroy the usefulness of the storm troopers as a long term control mechanism. We can look at motives. KatKan (talk) 15:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * There appears to be a belief in the Russian Goverment, that anything that happens, happens after a cable from Washington received ( I remember Glaziev opinion on rusvesna.su  ). This is likely for internal to Russia reasons. If they really believe it, they better have that cable. I was not following wikileaks, but what I recall related to Russia was some  bear crap. I also recall US ex-ambassador to Moscow saying they are somewhat involved, but not that involved to pull every string. We may have some idea from Nuland story, and her funding story comment, about how much that would be. (But ambassador even before that, in Gorbachev era, felt this is too much already by their standards). Involvement is a tricky thing, it's good to have some idea what is that you are doing. I am not sure this is the case. --Resup (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There is an oligarch problem. The ones who've made it are used to getting things their way. In a government they need to negotiate and compromise, which they don't have much practice doing. The ones who have not made it can be bought but you need to keep a close eye to prevent being out-bidded. So nobody trusts anybody and they keep changing sides, stabbing backs etc. In fact personal action is so entrenched, crowds gathering to protest AND GETTING IMMEDIATE RESULTS FROM IT is a normal regular occurrence, not just at the odd Maidan every few years.
 * In a big country with a big experienced bureaucracy, jobs can be delegated. A President, say, does not have to go there to make sure his goons go in the right door. He just tells someone on his staff it would be a pity if the X group got too strong. The staff then tells the CIA, and they know what to do, ie the agent(s) they send will know, depending on what starting a material they find. The Pres never knows the details. Plausible deniability. No email or cable footprints. I guess sometimes for distant places they have to put in writing the "pity if X got too strong" bit, which is more anonymous perhaps than ringing up with a recognisable voice. This lot already felt like smashing the Colorados, didn't take a lot of telling what to do. The killings were what the thugs felt like, the fire a sudden inspiration for how to cover it up, knowing the inquiry won't be very thorough. The partial way some were burnt indicates deliberate burning, not being caught in a general fire.KatKan (talk) 18:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

To Make the War Possible?
Odessa's "Timer" News agency reported August 25 on a press briefing from "Maidan self-defense" that explained the Odessa pogrom and its death toll was "not a tragedy," but an exacted toll, an acceptable (perhaps necessary?) price to pay - to prevent another front opening in the emergent civil war thing. He actual says it a bit different, but that's the adjusted, reasonable motive for such a thing. As pictured, he spoke at the May 2 Group-affiliated Odessa Crisis Media Center) Yandex translated:
 * He reported that on may 2, supporters of Euromayday defended their city and even prevented the collapse of the state, and 48 killed and over 200 wounded - reasonable price for these achievements. As stated Filippenko, otherwise, in the Odessa region, a war would break out. However, on what basis he came to these conclusions, he could not explain.

See also later report here, where it discusses the release of Goncharevskiy and notes
 * Cynically, Filippenko blamed the leaders of the Odessa Anti-Maidan movement “for herding the people into the [Trade Union] building”, otherwise the only thing burnt “would have been the tents in the Kulikovo Field.”
 * I was going to go off on that, but the original specifies "empty" tents. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I would argue the opposite of his most impressive-sounding point. Who can be for more war? Preventing it is quuite a noble cause, in general ... But think, if Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkiv, Maruipol, Slavyansk, etc. AND Odessa had all managed to seceed from Kiev's authority - there must be a point of loss adequate to PREVENT war breaking out by making it so impossible to win they have to settle peacefully for a divided Ukraine until the differences can be settled. Certainly there must be such a tipping point somewhere, and I suspect Odessa was close to it. The needs of the coming war necessitated the unofficial state-sponsored terrorism of May 2. Death and fear was needed in Odessa in strong concentrate, right from the bottle, so there could be a war that was even remotely winnable.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That is, of course, to the extent there was a real danger of that level of separatism ... having lost the option, some have since May 2 forsworn ever wanting that, maybe to remove any hint of "militant action" from their side to clarify the massacre/pogrom narrative over the "acceptable price" version. But there was surely some level of threatening mass sentiment, from what I've been reading, degree debatable. The terrorism itself is/would be premised on that sentiment, and the need to squelch it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:24, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Too complicated for me to grasp quickly. It does not appear to me any side would want to cause an all-out war, as the toll of that would be unacceptably high. I believe it was done in order to suppress protests and impose control on otherwise very free-spirited, easy-going place, with a strong cultural connection to Russia, and to prevent possible independence/cessation from Ukraine.  There was no prior war (or violence) in Odessa preventing which would justify x persons killed. --Resup (talk) 13:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * A generic pro-Ukraine argument, overheard from the K conference, is not to get under control of P . --Resup (talk) 13:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Mikola Volkov and M. Gordienko

 * RT, May 4: Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape - identifies commandant "Mikola," shooting at the building, and phoning in a lie that he was unarmed and had been shot in the leg.
 * ONE OF THE ACTORS IN THE ODESSA POGROM WAS IDENTIFIED – UKRAINIAN COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, May 9, 2014 - This identifies the subject as Mikola Volkov, a former criminal somehow now liaising with "Security" chief Parubiy 4 days before the massacre. He was handed bulletproof vests, later seen wearing one. That might've been Parubiy he was calling. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:43, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

This is the talk page, right? So blah blah ... this guy to me looked like an off-duty cop. Bulletproof vest, blue shirt, little pistol, and hanging out with a cop while placing a call to (was that straight to Interior Minister Avakov I heard he placed a call to?) Here they say he's a criminal guy, somehow deputized to be in this pogrom. at a level sufficient to be at a meeting with Andriiy Parubiy a couple days earlier. Is there anything to his cop appearance, or is that just coincidence? Was this criminal thug deputized as some kind of semi-cop, liaison with the mob type or something? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know who originally identified him but this excellent German article published on the same day as the one above has him, and another man who was seen all over the place agitating the crowd, and with Wolkow, and with Parubij. That's a certain M. Gordienko, a self-proclaimed Maidan activist with not much more information about him. Screenshot of his facebook page, talking about a meeting with the Interior ministry four days after the events. --CE (talk) 10:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * МВД продолжает зачистку "Правого Сектора": задержан одиозный "сотник Мыкола" (видео) (MIA continues to sweep "right sector": detained odious "centurion Mykola") – Russkaya Vesna, 28 May 2014
 * Arrested, then released? --Petri

G-translated:
 * According to the online edition of the Odessa "Timer", May 27, militants " Evromaydana " blocked the Interior Ministry building in Kiev , demanding the release of their accomplice detained in Odessa Nikolai Volkov , known as " Mykola centurion ," who is suspected of organizing riots.

(Is it Nikola or Mikola then?)
 * Note that today in the Odessa Police denied information about his murder of some anti-Nazi underground activists .

But for balance, he's been detained, maybe for a bit even, over the undeniable. Those he killed probably went underground starting the night of May 2. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't feel like digging up the links but should add here there were also reports, from right before his arrest, that Mykola was dead - found that way at home, likely murdered. But then he was reportedly arrested, and released. If the latter trumps the former, so be it. I haven't seen the details or visuals, so not sure ... --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Here is a video of Mykola agitating the mob downtown near "Athens". The starting point (and time) is exactly the same as in the first of the missing Denis Cherkasov Videos. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:38, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Igor Kolomoisky

 * RT: Kiev protégé allegedly behind Mariupol and Odessa massacres – leaked tapes
 * Video: Igor Kolomoisky behind Odessa massacre
 * The Key Man Behind the May 2nd Odessa Ukraine Trade Unions Building Massacre: His Many Connections to the White House, Eric Zuesse, May 18, 2014

Boiko Brothers

 * Captured Pro-Kiev Member confesses Killings in Kiev, uploaded Jun 9,2014
 * Interrogation of Evgeniy Viktorovich Boiko, taken captive by Lugansk People's Republic. He says he and his older brother, Dmitry Viktorovich Boiko (a member of maidan self-defense forces) were among the group entering the Trade Union Building and killing people. They brought the corpses to a forest. He counted 99. He himself claims to have murdered 10, with a submachine gun in the back of their heads, "executed". Difficult to say what to make of it. On the one hand, the guy is obviously borderline retarded and could likely be made to say anything, on the other hand he's exactly the kind of person that would in the "right" circumstances kill ten in a rage without a second thought. Well, the interviewers now have the brother's name and phone number. --CE (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Found one Dimitry Boiko, Kiev, born 1987, on twitter. He uses an app that posts when he's at certain places. Has been to Tbilisi, Georgia from 17-25.Mai, back in Kiev at a car wash three days later and next at a food store with four buddies on Jun 7. Would fit a trip to the east. Nothing interesting and not much at all for the earlier year. And his vKontakte profile makes him look completely harmless, although certainly "pro-Western" (ridiculous cars ;o)). --CE (talk) 18:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

"Flagneck"
Extremely identifiable, probably identified somewhere, this important perpetrator is best exposed by this video (Russian titles - subtitled versions are around). shows him all over May 2's events in a performance that's flamoyant, arrogant, and seemingly empowered. Bald- wearing a sleeveless military vest, black t-shirt, and Ukrainian flah (junta-noose) around his neck. Sometimes with or without a motorcycle helmet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Earlier in the day, he's seen marching with Maidan "self-defense" forces, shouting during the clashes (2:20), riding on the commandeered fire truck with a bottle in hand (drinking - 2:42, 3:00), then tossing a molotov cocktail for the crowd (3:15), besides apparently lighting up the only place other than the Trade Union Hall to burn that day. A man in just his clothing is seen throwing in a smoke bomb after some fire had started (0:50), on Hretska street, near the Athena center, where they had some provocateurs and "Colorado" corralled.--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

At the video's start, he's seen later right about where a molotov cocktail was hurled inside the Trade Union Hall, apparently in the southwest corner stairwell, 2nd floor landing, seeming to lead a group of masked, club-wielding militants. In a scene described here, he walks on frame putting his helmet back on, from the direction fire was just tossed, lighting another stairwell just as he and his crew descend it. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC) and cleanup Caustic Logic (talk) 13:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Later that night, "Flagneck" with his junta-noose seems to be in charge of the crime scene; right-wing mob members, not police, have secured the still smoldering building. They direct fire crews. They poke at and dig in pockets of the dead. This whole tour can be seen in an odd, 40-minute video made following the leader around as he explains everything. (See: Flagneck Tour Video for details on this important piece of evidence) (There are different versions around. All have bad screen-freeze, where the picture sticks but the audio continues. with French subtitles is good, running from 8:50 to 48:24 (video end). At 26:15 another body is found. Translated: "this one, who is it? Is it ours?" Video host "Flagneck" replies: "No, "Colorad."" They find and arrest still survivg "Colorado" in their corners (at least two seen), and count 25-30 corpses, with "Flagneck" acting as if he's just now finding all these people. Showing a woman with her pants down and blood from her head, next to a smashed-in door (19:39), he tells us she died from smoke or poison. Even the people dead with bullet or puncture wounds, those with specifically blackened faces, he's sure they all died from passive asphixiation, or poison gas. Presented with blood and tissue on the floor (37:58), asked if that's brain, he says no, the blood just coagulates. How the accidental fire spilled it, unexplained. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC) and video section link Caustic Logic (talk) 11:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Man with Adidas stripes
Vsevolod Goncharevskiy ( Всеволод Гончаревский )
 * Busted! Viral Video IDs Man Committing Atrocity During Odessa Massacre (cc, 5 min) – Russia Insider, 30 Sept 2014
 * Video


 * Seems like a good match between business suit and battle gear versions. I don't know why "Russia Insider" doesn't have the scoop on who this apparent ringleader is. I have no info, didn't notice him in that scene I studied. Leaving a comment. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The b*d has already been arrested - and LET GO.
 * Vsevolod Goncharovskoe
 * http://www.segodnya.ua/regions/odessa/v-odesse-zaderzhali-aktivista-podozrevaemogo-v-dobivanii-lyudey-u-doma-profsoyuzov--545886.html
 * http://job-sbu.org/v-odesse-zaderzhali-podozrevaemogo-v-izbienii-lyudey-u-doma-profsoyuzov-45127.html
 * Nothing about him in English at all. Slow work for me to dig up info in a language i don't read. Please someone find out who his friends are and see if we can get pix of them too. KatKan (talk) 09:31, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Is this about the same guy? Всеволод Гончаревский appears to be a middle age man, like in 40's or a bit older (looks balding, and grey haired somewhat). He was arrested on suspicion of beating a man who fell from a window of Trade Union building, Odessa,  May 2, and this is reported to be on a video.  But Adidas guy looks to me as a heavy set kid, in his 20's or something; appears to have full hair, bleached/colored and fancy, a bit Nazy-looking,  haircut. (My face recognition is not good, maybe I am just confused). --Resup (talk) 10:16, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Two different guys, both with stripes down the sleeve. Kid's sleeves, red, his, black. Good photo - a bit odd but it looks like Goncharevsky happy next to a Right Sector flag. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh, man, I thought I would be first, but I didn't copy - it just popped up suddenly on Youtube. First a video about his sentencing and release (for what, not sure) August 22. A March video names him as "Lawyer, Vsevolod Goncharevsky" talking about "the pressure on activists Maidana" Oh the pressure! He passed it onto other activists later... Tried leaving a new comment at RI but had to add that to my first for some reason. As for digging further, duplicating that is all for right now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The late ID seemed puzzling to me. Indeed. here he is IDd on video by June 2 (at least in the text description with Facebook link) per Odessa Today. Not so hard to find... --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:32, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

According to the activist, the reason for his detention was the video in which he allegedly beat up a man who fell from the Trade Unions House. Vsevolod Goncharevsky does not deny his presence on this day on Kulikovo field but stresses that he was there as an observer, was in a flak jacket and tried to help a wounded. In addition, he assured that he was only from the front of the building and, therefore, could not be in this video. Vsevolod Goncharevsky, a member of the party "Batkivshchyna" was detained after another resonant events - Ani Lorak concert in a nightclub "Ibiza", where the riots took place, and where he also attended. Activist said he participated in a peaceful protest against the concert and had no relation to riots. And his detention Vsevolod Goncharevsky called "cynical": he was "caught on the street and taken to Kherson",  where his  case was transferred. Suvorov District Court of Kherson released him from custody on guarantees from the Odessa city party organization VO "Batkivschina" but investigation is ongoing and charges against Goncharevskogo are not removed. On the question of who benefits from the charges against him, Vsevolod Goncharevsky said that "now an organized criminal structure is being organized in the city that under the guise of collecting money for the ATO extorts money from businessmen; this is coordinated at the highest level, and organizations such as the" Evromaydan "and the party "Batkivshchyna" are standing in their way " --Resup (talk) 11:17, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

On this video he is arranging some kind of party for young Praviy Sector members, including Mikola Dotsenko, at the Ibiza beach club. Plenty of police around. The source is this Junta to prison page. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * This is that Ani Lorak (real name Kuiek) concert, after which  Vsevolod Goncharevsky was detained. They tried to cancel the concert, on the basis of Lorak branded as traitor for doing some appearances in Russia. Video starts with chant "Kuiek za буёк", both words sound like another well-known unprintable word (second word is what floats in the ocean, telling how far one can swim). --Resup (talk) 19:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

A press conference of the RIght Sector in Odessa, posted 1 Oct. Всеволод Гончаревский is present, as well as other people, with clearly readable names provided. At the conference, they say that Shufrich was unwelcomed to come and remains unwelcomed. They say that separatists start gathering again at Kulikovo, and that they should NOT gather there next Sunday, 'as they will do their training there'. They say that Shufrich guards provoked them, while they think they were 'helping Shufrich back to his feet'. They make appeals to high officials of the state to drop the case, or else 'they cannot guarantee public order,' and an appeal to Shufrich to take his police complaint back (in addition to not showing up in the city in the future). (PS. 'Very Western behavior, should be in EU tomorrow'). --Resup (talk) 16:27, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

In English, [http://ukraineantifascistsolidarity.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/euromaidan-supporters-justify-odessa-massacre-defend-member-accused-of-killing/ Uk. anti-Fascist solidarity] on his release and the "appeals process" behind it, Sept. 3:
 * Maidan Defence and Right Sector thugs managed to secure the release of one of their supporters who is accused of finishing off anti-Maidan protesters after they jumped off the burning Trade Union building on May 2nd. 
 * ... 100 Euromaidan supporters from Odessa, including Right Sector and Maidan Defence members, travelled to Kherson to express their support for Euromaidan supporter Vsevolod Goncharevsky ... one of the leaders of the Odessa Maidan Defence ... (Self defense, Svoboda, Udar joined in) They declared their intention to surround the court until achieving the release of his comrade. Some of the protesters were masked, others wore military fatigues, some were armed and burnt tyres outside the court building. Finally, the Kherson Region court of appeal ruled the release of Goncharevsky.
 * On August 21, Goncharevsky’s far right supporters had already gathered outside the Deparment of Organised Crime in Odessa demanding his release and threatening to attack the building with molotov cocktails if their demands were not met, according to a report in Prestuposti.net.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 11:10, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Man in black with haircut

 * Mikola Dotsenko

I have finally combined these two leads that have been sitting on this page for 4 months and matched the Praviy Sector leader to today's attacker in Odessa. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * http://vk.com/id246578562?w=wall-42832638_12901
 * Traces photos to identifiable face.
 * That is a pretty good match - I'm mostly convinced whoever that guy is (someone will have his name) can be identified and arrested, clubbed to death, whatever. That's one of our "Russian terrorists" "dropping a molotov cocktail on the roof" that is. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:36, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * He is also seen leading the the march to the Kuloviko Field in one of the Denis Cherkasov videos. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Odessa, May 2, Transfiguration Street, La la la la
 * I think he's also seen entring the TU Hall by the south corner entrance. As for the famous m.c. hurling scene, for context that's from the 44:22 video at 11:00 in. He walks on shortle before, then runs in then with this display. FWIW he gets yelled at right away (punishment enough, maybe not, but a start) Always the awkward kid, he suffers from bad rhythm and timing. The time (by correlating videos) seems to be about 8:10-8:15 PM - fire trucks were already arriving (out back, up front soon), and the mob was entering good cop mode. Rescue scaffolding goes up soon to beat the firemen to it (that's the video's theme: title translates "Maydanovtsy save people from a burning house unions" - starting about 8:15 PM...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Who is the provocateur in a black coat on this video from March 30th? I think I saw him somewhere later. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The same guy is seen on September 30th on this video (and here) beating up former deputy secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, current MP Nestor Shufrych in Odessa. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A colorful haircut heavy built guy is also seen here at around 2:10, after dropping one of their own, newly elected head of the Right Sector Konstantin Ivanov in a garbage bin, right after the Shufrych event; also on Sep 6, (4:02) onward, Oleg Rudenko thrown to garbage bin.  There is another photo linked in comments to the same vk page. (Nobody should be clubbed to death; charges in September incidents is hooliganism; but it may be of help for May investigation, --if there is one that is).   --Resup (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Which guy? Gray hood i center? Or other? That's not May 2, but we have red armbands in Odessa, so it could matter, if the one guy matches the other. May not reveal a known perp but could illustrate that important issue. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Gray "Adidas" tracksuit with hod. He is the one who did the kicking und punching. Seen at 1m 56s on the video. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:37, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, as seen at 0:38 - that seems to be the same guy. And I see those are just right sector armbands, so no infiltrator clues ... it adds the haircut which helps link to the new attacks, for what it's worth. Resup's ID of the same guy also looks good. You can spot his face right at the start, but the hair only at 2:10. The goth effect plus all else makes me suggest the nickname "Lurch." As for calling for his beating death, I imagine he had a rough life, some time spent in garbage cans, so maybe a little understanding is good. I don't really advocate revenge murder, but it's not my place to say, so "whatever."  :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments of Anton Trischenko: Tatiana, it is definitely him, taken from his album. So he knows where is that album, but he does not say in the post --Resup (talk) 16:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * A Google image search reveals he is Mikola Vadimovich Dotsenko, born August 13, 1995. (Николай Доценко "Доцент", "kolya docent" on VK) There is also another set of photos of him here.
 * P.S. – I bet you do not want to see a video of Николай Доценко ice bucket challenge. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Man in mask and helmet

 * ''The masked guy is Mikola Dotsenko, already covered above in . I am combining these two sections. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The 2 guys above, ID-ed. The 3d guy below, is not. I don't think he is a youngster. He is a participant of events (but what he says perhaps is more interesting than who he is )--Resup (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

This long video is shot in Odessa, a few days after May 2. I did not watch fully but spotted something curious at 58:00 to 1:02:00. It shows pro Right Sector crowd by the Duke statue where they normally hang together. A man in black leather, masked, in military helmet, is talking passionately to police officers. What he is telling is that he was at Kulikovo; and that (at some time in the past) people he thought are separatists were shooting in him and his friends from behind the police line. One of his friends was shot in the head and killed, another was shot in abdomen with what he thought was off-centered bullet causing lots of damage. The man is telling the police that the type of weapons used by separatists is the same as police has, and asks why police give weapons to separatists. (That part reminds Moskal' description of Maidan events (Moskal' said it was special operation, in a format designed in the Soviet Union, called Volna (Wave) to deal with mass protests. Special unit shooting at police and protesters to inflame passions and justify further actions is involved. Another format, called Bumerang, was designed to deal with terrorism.

Masked man also says that he confronted one of the separatist guys asking where he got his gun, and he replied from the police. Masked man tells that he threw some stuff at Trade Union building but does not believe a fire can be set that way on floors 3 and higher. He also tells that he beat some young separatists exiting the building, so that they will not shoot at him the next day; but that he also rescued some elderly people from the building, and claims that is recorded on some video (that's a bit odd thing to say, actually). --Resup (talk) 12:17, 1 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Did not watch, but will see about a visual (they often wear the same outfits). Otherwise, might not belong here if he can't be visually linked. The police guns angle is of interest - I need to add somewhere on a plot (on the other side) to steal a bunch from some research institute - they asked the police chief for help! (I cite Timer for that) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:09, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

So we found out who this guy too was already identified as. Excellent, I hoped someone was on these things. I'm not convinced, but the guy under the mask does look a lot like Mikola. Speaks gravelly like a "Lurch" would, but skin looks young. Eyebrows, not raised, but consistent. Eyelids, nose, chin, all seems consisent. He's taller than most, consistent. Scene there throwing "things," check. I'm for calling a likely but not certain ID. Speech comparison might make it more solid. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought he reminds me Vsevolod, he hangs with an elder guy next to him, who is a bit like the one near him in Anna Lorak video, and he has a bit of a lawyer-type-speak addressing the cop (spelling out his complaint, not just angry talk). But he clearly does not want to be identified, is not doing anything gross at that instance, and just wants to have a chat with a cop. So I guess I am not keen to find out who he is.--- He is definitely a participant, he speaks about it himself. Also, (apart from having a cold or smth), he speaks perfect Russian, no noticeable Southern accent even. While Mikola, I believe, will study Ukrainian in school; e.g this source discusses "freely" (whatever that means) allowing Russian as an experiment in Odessa schools  --Resup (talk) 23:45, 1 October 2014 (UTC)


 * "... he also rescued some elderly people from the building." He knows this is on video and probably just where. 0:20 in this video - 8:37 PM by title, he and another masked guy are walking with an older man in a black hoodie, who looks sad and has a bloodied nose. Next he would lovingly be put in the paddywagon and perhaps spared the phallanx of beatings most had to pass through. --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The guy with the Hannibal Lecter mask is NOT Mikola Dostenko -- in the above elderly man rescue photo, Mikola is the one in the red stripe-sleeve hoodie that he wears very often. He's also the bastard that tossed a Molotov at the building when they were trying to rescue people off the window ledges. As per this earlier posted by Petr KatKan (talk) 03:52, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Megaphone guy
This guy in a blue striped shirt carrying a megaphone is seen on several of the Denis Cherkasov videos. He is seen near Athens instructing the mob to move somewhere, evidently to Kulikovo Field. In the next video (Putin huylo! La la la la) he may be leading the march, but when the cameraman turns towards him, he is blocked from filming. Later he is seen "observing" behind the Trade Union Building (still carrying the megaphone, as seen in the next video in my archive.) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Other

 * Милиция задержала «евромайдановца», подозреваемого в расстреле одесситов 2 мая (Police detained "evromaydanovtsa" suspect in the shooting Odessites May 2) – 05/19/2014
 * Доказательства: Убийца с Майдана в Доме Профсоюзов (Proof: Maidan assassin in the House of Trade Unions) – Святослав Хоробрый, May 21, 2014
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPGUJZcpHwk

Witnesses
Via Odessa Republic on VK
 * ''Survivor story in the House of Trade Unions: "I ran to the right, and it saved my life." TIMER provides its readers the story of another man who was on the Kulikovo Field and the House of Trade Unions during the tragic events of May 2. According to our source, who wished to remain anonymous first defenders tried to hold a barricade constructed at the entrance to the House of Trade Unions, but the hail of stones soon forced them to retreat into the building. According to the activist, the building has already started to burn, but people still decided to take refuge there. "Why we went into the building - no one knows - says an eyewitness. - The building people diverged who left, who right. I ran to the right, and it saved my life. " In addition, some people ran up the central staircase. According to him, the building was very dark, so the windows were shuttered. When this building was already well smoggy. Some time people tried to sit in their offices, and when suffocating smoke began to penetrate and there, rushed to the stairs. Our interlocutor was lucky he did not run to the central staircase, and to the one that was located in the right wing of the building. There also went along with him for approximately two dozen people. All of them survived. "I immediately began to shout:" Fire, fire! ". But fire came only about an hour and a ladder brought us - says the man - Even when m³ out, I shouted: "Bandera, if you're there, then leave, because burn!." He argues that escaped from House of Trade Unions mainly those who thought to escape from the fire and smoke in the wings of the building, and those who remained in the central part of or tried to climb the central staircase, died.


 * KyivPost: Two Odessa fire survivors, both in the anti-government camp, tell their stories
 * Tatiana:
 * “He was standing on the right of me. I could hear shouting: ‘We’ll kill you’. My face was to the wall and I couldn’t see, but something hit me on the head, I don’t know what it was,” said Tetiana. Her hair caught on fire but the man next to her put it out, saving her life, she says.


 * Alyona:
 * Both Alyona and Tetiana say attackers ran inside the building in pursuit when the protesters took refuge on upper floors. They think there may even have been people who were not from their group inside beforehand. They both think those on the building roof throwing Molotov cocktails, clearly seen in video footage, were not from their group.


 * However, Alyona says protesters inside may have been making Molotov cocktails, in panic, but were not very competent and failed to throw them outside. But she thinks it impossible that the building was set on fire from the inside. ... She did not see any flames. ... she and four women and eight men barricaded themselves inside the fourth floor office because they could hear people coming to attack them from the corridor.

Vania
(indirect witness) As seen in this video, Vania is the name a local man gives when telling what he heard happened at the Trade Union hall. He's apparently not a direct witness, but may have reliable information from them, and gives compelling, if troubling, details. The following is from Eric Zuesse in this article at Counterpunch, transcript of the video’s printed subscript’s English translation, retaining its typos exactly as they were shown in the film-clip (except that the curse-words aren’t shown letter-for-letter), and with clarifications added by me in red"
 * (the red never came through there...)
 * Those who were collecting the bodies said: we were walking on the dead bodies … [How many people got killed there?] If we take the whole day, 116. … They are burying them secretly. They were collecting the bodies and finished off the wounded. [Did they poison them with some gas?] Not only with gas. They used stan granades, guns, traumatic guns, pump-action rifles. They chased the people into the building and finished them there. Two guys were clubbed to death with sticks. Is it normal? Is it a f–king united country? They burned a woman with two children alive. In the first floor this woman and two children were killed. … And the Media called us … I’m sorry but I will talk [to the media]! The Ukrainian [Kiev] Media call us terrorists. But the Right Sector [a Western-oriented neo-Nazi party, prominent in the new Kiev government], the wankers, chased us up to the roof of the builing. They threw Molotov Cocktails at us and cried ‘Death to enemies’. To what enemies [he asked them]? And then they cried [out in support of] ‘United Ukraine’. [He replied] F–k the United Ukraine. F–k this countrry [the newly installed government in Kiev]. [How all this was going chronologically?] Chronologically? They came … [Were there any children killed?] There were many children, women and old people murdered. They finished off the wounded. With headshots. They jumped on their heads. The police couldn’t do anything, they only cordoned off the building. The police tried to come up, a grenade burst among them, and they jumped on the dead bodies. [Where are the rest of the bodies?] The rest of the bodies are six kilometers from Odessa. We need to go there and take them. [unclear question] My name is Vania. [He turns to go.] 

--Caustic Logic (talk) 03:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

"Inna"
An unnamed woman who survived gave her account on video (speaking to Anatoly Shary), translated to rough English transcript here. Unnamed witnesses with lots of info, liable to be cited in different spots, needs a nickname. Inna is a unisex name meaning "strong water." Sounds good. This witness has issues at both end - an unexplained survival from some room with blood everywhere," perhaps in the basement, where "the wounded were all finished off," except at least for her. - and at the beginning, when at the Cathedral square before even the clashes "i saw right in front of my eyes the ultra-nationalists cutting the throat of a 40 year old man" at the "pro-unity" rally. "They shouted to him "Slava Ukraine!" and he told them "I am just an Odessa man," so they pulled him to the ground and cut his throat." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

But these aren't fatal to her reliability and otherwise, she give detailed account with several points confirmed by other evidence, seeming plausible given what we know, and maybe very useful. She relates the decision to hole up inside, defense, medical, and tactical issues they faced, the incursion and fire-starting inside by "the ultras/fascists," and the toxic gas that caused disorientation and was sprayed repeatedly, sometimes at close-range. She relates last-ditch defenses, people shot dead, talk of rape, and a number of dead sounding higher than what we later saw. One little-mentioned but hugely important point she makes, and is confirmed: "there was absolutely no water in the building. The water was cut off before the ultras/fascists began their attacks, before the bottles with flammable liquids and "Molotov cocktails" got thrown into the building." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Clashes
I'm not sure how to create a proper sub-page for Odessa Trade Union massacre/Clashes (did the Bodelan one even get done right? or is it just the subpages section that's missing?) but this subject deserves a page with space to breathe. Who's seen doing what and when is confusing and worth digesting and mapping, etc. I had some starter material besides this, but it's not ready yet, at least to start a front page. Petri strarted us out with the location stuff and I added a map. Actually, I didn't write an intro yet either. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (moved to Odessa Trade Union massacre/Clashes) --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

More videos
(sorry if repeating, can't tell)

Hey! What's going on here?

Another. Both appear to show severely beaten people with little burns --Resup (talk) 05:40, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed, and nothing controversial. Everyone who came out (aside from proven others, like some workers at businesses trapped inside) was subject to beating and/or arrest as soon as they came out (the one is said to explain the other - protective custody) Some jumped/fell/were tossed, some climbed down ropes/scaffolding, more down fire ladders. Hardly anyone came out a proper door, but many were beaten. Beatings aside, only 10 fallers officially died, and 32 inside from fire, smoke, chemicals (the other six, shot in the clashes). This is sort of basic stuff, but what the hell, a catch-up space or whatever. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:23, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Beating people trying to escape fire is at least somewhat controversial, no matter what the circumstances are (no reason to think guys being beaten are the shooters). Official investigation by Ukraine Commission of MoI  made this claim (see page 23 on UNCHR) "Commission stated that none of the deceased at Kulikovo Pole were shot or beaten to death, but that their death was caused by carbon-monoxide gas poisoning, some unidentified chemical substance or by burns". Well, we do not have much chance to certify that somebody is beaten to death, or not beaten to death, based on a video, this is forensic matter. I guess beating with a stick is potentially dangerous, somebody could potentially die just from that. One guy is shown with no visible wounds but unconscious, docs are heard saying, looks like he was hit in the head and knocked unconscious. If he is in a pro boxer shape, very likely will come back, otherwise, I would not want to guarantee it. --Resup (talk) 15:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

And this long stream is done shortly after fire is over. Not sure whether discussed elsewhere, this one shows deaths caused by fire; some blood seen around 1:15 but circumstances unclear. Cannot make much of it, giving link just in case it is meaningful to somebody --Resup (talk) 06:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Video showing them entering the building at side entrance,heaps of them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvLukZZoTh8 the go in at 2:10 in vid. KatKan (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Flagneck Tour Video

 * (moved to Talk:Odessa Trade Union massacre/Videos)

TV reports
Captions in lower screen in the first (9:27) minutes video are as inflammatory as it gets, like terrorists who shot that many people kept their weapons in Trade Union building and so it is now prime and proper to go their and "neutralize" them. Don't want to translate word by word, because first it is hard to see, and also I do not know is it for real or fake (poor quality is some support for the latter). Can't be sure is it 'hvylia" documented, or later spin by somebody trying to to "prove," whatever. Another perplexing thing, around 13:37 loudspeaker kicks in. Unfortunately I cannot hear all words but it is something like ..Rossii...podniata po trevoge...idet na Ukrainu....hurrah!!!! ( unintelligible...   of Russia... placed on red alert ...moves towards Ukraine... hurrah!!! ) I wish I knew what is being said, some words are unintelligible, and it is  more likely call to arms against Russian "attack", but also consistent cheering that "attack"). I am referring to the initial longest version (the one we started with, labelled part 3 on youtube) . But with all that, starting to wonder: what was shown on TV at that time? And what was shown on police scanners or radios at the time? (Some folks may be hacking such communications). But we also seen some funny captions before, so don't know what to make of this. --Resup (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Just notices that type of caption line on 1tv; then it was gone. So may be real; good if 02.05.2014 broadcast can be found; was unable to do so. Actual videos supposed to have much higher quality --Resup (talk) 04:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

tvcast youtube 1:32 "by official report, the weapons used in the shooting was kept at Kulikovo Pole. It was brought from Russia and Trans-Dnester. Sources in City Prosecuting Attorney Office consider starting anti-terrorist operation. ANY ACTIONS directed towards DISARMING TERRORISTS ARE CONSIDERED LEGAL ." This is the same as what caption said. I was too freaked to believe it. --Resup (talk) 04:22, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Recent official news, 02.10.2014 tv newscast: terrorists are shelling Donetsk airport from civilian multi-story buildings. Because of high level of corruption, problems with water and electricity in occupied areas. And in liberated, that is being restored. A separatist is arrested, said to be involved in anti-Ukrainian agitation and inciting unrest. In his flat, "weapons, ammunition, improvised explosive devices, detonators, and Novorossia newspaper found. " It is "known that arrested man was participant of disturbances on May 2, criminal procedures started." SBU office shown at this point. Reminder, 'during disturbances on May 2, provoked by pro-Russian radicals, 48 people have died'. --Resup (talk) 05:23, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Channel 1 reports (1tv.od.ua), compressed into most of that 9-minute segment, can be found on Youtube in many forms, mostly low-res. There's a high-res batch of some of the later ones with times (poss. from the reporter) But sometimes when I say where, they disappear. These and other copies of their several videos seem legit, on-site reporter, same things everyone else sees, etc. though I haven't looked into the channel much - if the reporter there is named, and matches the channel owner, they're probably his and not so fragile and I can share with ease (I have my own copies, but not everyone does). --Caustic Logic (talk) 06:28, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Other Important off-line videos
Анатолий Шарий Anatolii Sharii is a blogger, ex-youtuber, with a following in Ukraine and Novorossia. He gave an interview to a Ukrainian channel 112 via Skype, interview was posted May 5. Sharii said (at 1:34) that "tomorrow" he will receive a video of a survivor of Trade Union event. Survivor is an "Odessian." Sharii says that survivor reports that some people were beaten to death. Well at this point in the interview, it does not appear Sharii has seen the video. But this is what he expects to see tomorrow, as there was some contact made about this. (Maybe it is worthwhile to contact Sharii? I do not plan to, I do not know him, and I do not use social networks, but perhaps you would, if you want to).

There may be important other off-line videos, it is good to at least keep track of what those videos supposed to show, even if it is not practical to provide link to a source. .--Resup (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not much at networking but try it sometimes, and he sounds worthwhile for sure. Might well try it soon... though I suspect for raw video we're missing very little by now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a f*cking small world. This was open on my other screen. There is a HUGE geopolitical game being played and a very small number of people playing it. I do not mean the Powers That Be but us. By this time everybody knows everybody. The one person I do not really know or follow is Anatolii Sharii. He does not write, but makes videos. Maybe it is time to learn Russian. Some of the other people involved: The tweet I linked to is by Valentina Lisitsa. She has done some exceptional work and discoveries, not just translating. Her latest was today published by the Slavyangrad site. Slavyangrad is maintained by Gleb Bazov. I knew Gleb Bazov already before Ukraine; we were already communicating about the Ghouta CW massacre. In fact I knew most of the most vocal English language anti-Kiev activists earlier + many of the Russian speaking ones. If I was not Facebook friends with them earlier, I was on … about February 23rd. The problem here is that we at ACLOS are supposed to be neutral. I am becoming far too involved to be neutral. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


 * As to small world, I started to follow Valentina Lisitsa today, independent of the Odessa topic, your rant and the Slavyangrad article. :o) --CE (talk) 00:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)