Talk:Adra massacre

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem, opening speech in Montruex, Geneva, January 22, 2014 (Syrian Free Press):
 * In the name of a revolution, “to free the oppressed Syrian people from the regime and to spread democracy,” does a father blow himself up with his wife and children to prevent foreign intruders from entering his home? Most of us in this room are fathers – I ask you then, what would compel a man to kill his own family to protect them from freedom fighting monsters. This is what happened in Adra, a place that most of you have not heard of but where the same alien monsters attacked: killing, looting, beheading, slaughtering, raping and burning people alive.
 * The latter parts are covered in previously reported details below. But the first part with a man blowing up his own family to save them from terrorist indignities is very similar to one of the apparently untrue stories of the Aqrab Massacre. Considering Adra and Aqrab sound similar, if it was anyone less informed than Moallem, I'd presume a mix-up on top of error. But it sounds like there's an alleged family self-destruction involved in Adra. How this was decided, if there's more info available somewhere, unknown. Continuing with the quote:
 * You have heard nothing of this brutality for sure, yet you have heard of other places where the same heinous crimes were committed and where the same blood soaked finger was pointed at the Syrian Army and government. And when these flagrant lies were no longer credible, they stopped spinning their web of deceit.
 * Indeed. Walid takes 'em back to school. --Caustic Logic (talk) 01:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Death Toll
(to be settled)

It seems 19 confirmed, dozens and not many dozens, 40 or so total, seems to be winning at the moment. For my part, I don't think the 200-ish 185-ish numbers sound made-up. This was an audacious operation, with the most detailed (or propaganda-laden?) reports telling of carnage like that unleashed on the towns of Latakia, where 200 were taken hostage and 200 killed. The attack included families in homes, a factory fully staffed, and several areas, with perhaps thousands of fighters. I suspect we're in the cautious, pre-confirmation, confirmed sub-sets phase. And the number of those taken captive needs considered - those will be in the dead or worse category, and as many as all of them could wind up in the dead one eventually. I invite being shown wrong, but I predict we'll be seeing more confirmation of the higher numbers in due time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:22, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

For better or worse, the SOHR remains the main source for information, and their confirmed toll is ticking up, but remains in the bracket below 40. They have reported 13 confirmed non-Sunnis and implicitly no Sunnis, then 15, then 19. Then 12 (more?) bodies were found and reported by opposition activists on the 14th, for a possible total of 31. Most recently, by the 15th, the SOHR reported on its Facebook page 32 confirmed dead including 2 children and 4 women. As for sect, they report "most of the victims were Alawites, the casualties also include people from other minorities such as Shi'a and Druze," and still implicitly no Sunnis.

In contrast, Syrian Perspective reports "We also can confirm that of the 200 or so innocent civilians murdered by the rats, 15 were Alawis and Druze. The rest were all Sunni Muslims who did nothing to cause anger or offense." That's a huge discrepancy that remains to be resolved. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:42, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and "dozens" of people are missing, SOHR reports, any number of them dead or soon to be. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

RT says 80 - according to SAA sources. RT Report
 * Thanks, good add. The 40 roof is broken. More proper source at rt.com. RT Arabic correspondent Abutaleb Albohaya says:
 * “For now it’s established that over 80 people were killed in the areas now taken over by the army. Often whole families were murdered,” he said. 


 * The number of executed civilians is expected to rise after government troops manage to recover the rest of the town - which has a population of around 20,000 - from the Islamists, the military source added. 
 * That could be read wrong. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * “Some families were kidnapped in order to be used as human shields in areas where the Syrian army is now trying to free the civilians,” Albohaya stressed. Iraqi Al-Ahd television says this is the reason the Syrian army is abstaining from using artillery on Sunday.  --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * PressTV has also chipped in with 80 PressTV Aleppo & Adra --Charles Wood (talk) 16:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

On December 17, For Mother Syria reported, along with the beheading photo above, a drastically revised figure of "about 400 victims from all the Syrian religious affiliations," of which "about 90 beheaded body of innocent civilians were found thrown in Saturday Market of the town."

Witness Accounts

 * Breaking News.sy - A survivor of Adraa tells his nights of terror with al-Nusra Front (also at Liveleak: Escaping the Adra Massacre by Islamists in Syria)
 * Mazhar Ibraheem, a Syrian doctor, ... who is originally from Tartous countryside, told Breaking News Network what he witnessed when some militants have infiltrated the city, where he lived for several years.
 *  “Since the earlier hours of that day, I heard crackle of gunfire in front of my house that is in front of a bakery, then I realized that it was fire exchange between the militants and the bakery guards «the heroes»….. Hours were difficult… I escaped with my wife and my daughter Kristin to a nearby shelter, where dozens of the residents were hiding.” 
 * Ibraheem continued saying to Breaking News Network reporter to Tartous, “Then the armed men have infiltrated the shelter and started torturing, killing and investigating about « who supports the “regime” and who works with the government».” “The radicalized militants have intended to cut off the hands of the government’s worker In order to prevent the resumption of their work and to behead some of them and to torture the bodies in front of the children eyes,” Ibraheem said.
 * He added “After three days of «horror» in the shelter, the doctor could escape with his family and other families to the international road, where Syrian Army is located." The doctor also described the horrific scenes that he with his family saw of decomposed, tortured and beheaded bodies, which were thrown all over the streets. The wife said that “the armed men were non-Syrians, we lived terrible days, before we could escape with only the clothes that we wore. The Syrian Army secured us and helped us to reach a safe area.” The family are now hosted by the governer of Tartous province. 

The photo seems to be them, sad but alive, in the governor's office.--Caustic Logic (talk) 05:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Another witness cited in a post at Initidada Palestine, apparently from Arabic language al-Haghigha website, said:
 * “We woke up at (Wednesday) dawn with the sound of bullets… we saw men carrying black flags of Jaish al-Islam and al-Nusra Front. Some of them were singing ‘Alawites we have come to cut off your head’s song and this was the song they first sang at the start of the war in Idlib.”

Locations


RT reports:
 * “The military sources also said that the other kidnapped families were moved to the area south of Adra in the direction of the town of Douma, which has been the opposition’s strategic backland since the start of the Syrian crisis [in March, 2011]. It’s also where the most important rebel fortifications are situated,” Albohaya said. 

The VDC database shows only 12 deaths in Adra recently, but a big spike in dead people in/from Douma in the days after. (see below/details later) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

World Reaction
A rare condemnation by the no-longer rebel-supplying United States was issued by the State Department, tacked onto the underside of another condemnation of (unattributed but implicitly "regime") violence in Nabk:
 * We condemn in the strongest possible terms the recent massacres of Syrian civilians in the Qalamoun region and elsewhere. Scores of civilians, many of them children, have again fallen victim to brutal violence, and we are outraged at the alarming reports, including reports of invasive house raids, kidnappings, and extrajudicial killings. We also note and condemn the latest report of a massacre of civilians in Adra.

But they have less details and adjectives, and weaker terms, for that. There is something big and awful at least reportedly going on in Nabk - I'm not following, but I saw the VDC is listing related field execution victims in recent days. I'm sure it's worth a page and will get one in time. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:22, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

General

 * Syria rebels attack Adra homes, make piles of bodies – al Alam, December 12, 2013
 * Includes video: download
 * ''According to Al Alam reporter Mazen Salmo, militants from the terrorist Liwa al-Islam group, and al-Qaeda’s al-Nusra Front attacked Adra on Wednesday and started killing people, family by family.
 * ''A video showed piles of dead bodies in houses, among them children, who were killed during militants’ attack.
 * ''Local witnesses told Salmo that militants attacked Adra’s super markets, fuel stations and bakeries as they entered the city and scared people off their way.
 * ''An unknown number of people have been abducted by militants while many have been killed in their homes, Al Alam reporter said.
 * ''Local reports also say that people have been executed in Adra following al-Nusra Front attack on the town, and some have said more than a hundred people have been killed by militants in last couple of days.


 * TERRORISTS FALL INTO MAJOR TRAP IN 'ADRAA AS SYRIAN ARMY ROLLS OVER THEIR POSITIONS ON ALL FRONTS; – Syrian Perspective, December 12, 2013
 * ''Many of you heard yesterday that the Jabhat Al-Nusra and allied groups like the ISIS invaded 'Adraa Residential (Al-Sakaniyya or Al-'Umaaliyya) and began massacring civilians. The massacre of nearly 200 civilians did take place.


 * ADRAA BESIEGED BY SYRIAN ARMY AS LAST BREATH OF SAUDI MONKEY-TERRORISTS IS HEARD; – Syrian Perspective, December 12, 2013
 * ''We also can confirm that of the 200 or so innocent civilians murdered by the rats, 15 were Alawis and Druze. The rest were all Sunni Muslims who did nothing to cause anger or offense.


 * Adra, oder: Wo bleibt die Aufklärung? Several, December 12, 2013


 * This is a German translation of a rather extensive ANNA News item (Russian original here). It's a very early report talking about 150 abducted, 6 killed at a bread factory, "dozens" killed in their burning houses, etc. I posted the relevant snippet of the first SyrPer article as a comment there this afternoon. Was told by a - fellow loyalist - regular commenter that he wasn't too impressed with Ziad's accuracy in general. He added the numbers he has from his contacts: 60 civilians slaughtered (Bakery employees, State employees and Loyalists, mainly Alawites, Druze and Christians). 8 palestinian fighters, 25 police men, 12 NDF-members und 18 SAA-soldiers. Zahran Alloush leads the operation, he says. --CE (talk) 03:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Temporary, confused source collection from Urs including several additional hints from facebook etc that Zahran Alloush and his Liwa Al-Islam core group lead the operation, some victim names. --CE (talk) 03:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * For Mother Syria on Facebook – December 12, 2013
 * ''40 civilians were slaughtered and more of 100000 are besieged:
 * ''Adra is a city located about 30 km from the eastern entrance to the capital, now it's a city of death and war.
 * ''Wednesday night was quiet, till 3:00 after midnight, when the city of about 100,000 civilian woke uo on the Takbeers of masked men dressed in black, and waving the flags of " Al-Nusra Front " and "The Islamic Front".
 * ''More than 2000 of armed terrorists from the outskirts of the city which is fully opened on Ghota, about 500 of the terrorists were from the inside of the city and they helped and planed the terrorist invasion.
 * ''The terrorists began to attack the government centers, and attacked the police station, where all the policemen were martyred after a clash did not last long because of the large numbers of the attackers.
 * ''Then the terrorists of "The Islamic Front" and "Al-Nusra Front " headed to the checkpoint located on the edge of the city before heading toward the clinic, where they slaughtered one from the medical staff there and put his head in the popular market and dragged his body in front of people.


 * Reuters: Islamists kill 15 Alawite and Druze civilians in Syria -activists
 * Islamist rebels killed at least 15 civilians from the minority Alawite and Druze sects in the central Syrian city of Adra on Wednesday and Thursday, the pro-opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said. One other victim was a pro-government fighter ...
 * Witnesses, activists and Syrian state media accused the Islamic Front, an alliance of several large rebel groups, and the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front of carrying out the attacks. ... Several blamed the Army of Islam, an Islamic Front member group led by Zahran Alloush, and some put the death toll as high as 40, but these reports could not be independently verified. "Zahran Alloush has committed a massacre," one activist based in the Damascus suburbs told Reuters.
 * One woman in Adra, who said she was too frightened to say what religious minority she was from, told Reuters armed men from the Islamic Front and the Nusra Front entered her family's house around 3 a.m. (0100 GMT) on Thursday and took her son. The militants said her son would be returned, but he was still missing on Thursday afternoon, she said.
 * Syria's Sunni Muslim majority has largely joined the revolt against President Bashar al-Assad, who is an Alawite...
 * (facepalm) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Syria's Sunni Muslim majority has largely joined the revolt against President Bashar al-Assad, who is an Alawite...
 * (facepalm) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Syrian Radio and TV: Terrorists commit massacre against civilians in Adra, Damascus Countryside (boring small article - in part:)
 * A military source clarified in a statement to SANA on Thursday that "terrorists attacked the unarmed civilian citizens in their homes" in Adra, which includes housing compounds for workers, noting that "reports indicated that a massacre was committed against civilians by the terrorists."


 * And a video from them, 9:49 overall news for Dec. 12, via Syria News Press on Youtube


 * Friends of Syria: Update on Adra Massacre
 * NEW UPDATES: Insurgents commited massacres against civilians, threw the corpses in Saturday Market, and they hang a number of Martyrs’ heads on a tree.


 * The terrorists also set up snipers and mortar launchers on the high buildings in Adra and detained a large number of civilians in the cellars of this buildings as human shields ….


 * News confirmed that the terrorists burned the family of (Abo Ibrahim) (from Masyaf) in there house because they resisted the militants …. List the confirmed names of some of the martyrs : The hero martyr ( Idris Ibrahim) : resisted and fought the terrorists with a group of brave men near the bakery, last contact with him he confermed the death of 30 terrorist.


 * Martyr (Tawfiq Makhlouf) and his family. Martyr (Abu Zaki Ahmad) :Slaughtered with a knife. Martyr Lt. (Ali Zureiq). Martyr doctor (Georges Makhoul) : had been slaughtered then they hang his head. Martyr (Haider al-Khatib). Martyr (Hamza Ayub). Martyr (Alaa) Abu Younis . Martyr (Unknown name) neckname ( Om Ali) : Abo Ali Hasan wife. Non-confermed names: -Taher – Evan Brothers. -Ali Suleiman. -Abu Ibrahim and his family … his house and the entire building was burned. -Abu Hussam Barini: owner of a local chicken shop (kidnapped). Names of the martyrs are likely to increase because of the unknown names of a lot of bodies due to the few sources. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Associated Press: Many Feared Killed by Rebels in Damascus suburb - adds little new to us. SOHR now has 19 confirmed, identified, Druze and Alawite victims, with no claim that's the full number). --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:22, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia: Adra massacre


 * RT, Dec. 15: ‘Whole families murdered’: Syrian rebels execute over 80 civilians outside Damascus


 * The above has one Muhammad Al-Said claiming: “The worst crime they committed was that they toasted people in ovens used to bake bread when those people came to buy it. They kidnapped and beat up many,” he added. According to Al-Said, the rebels committed the atrocities so they could place blame on government forces. SyrPer makes similar claims and Urs has collected some gruesome videos of skinned people, blamed on Assad in the videos. She links to ANNA News who even claim that there is a "Christmas tree" they are "decorating" with cut-off heads of christians. Skepticism is warranted, of course, at least to an extent, but for the record. --CE (talk) 12:36, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * A survivor of Adraa tells his nights of terror with al-Nusra Front, breakingnews.sy, December 16, 2013
 * Mazhar Ibraheem, a Syrian doctor, [...] told Breaking News Network what he witnessed when some militants have infiltrated the city, where he lived for several years. [...] After three days of «horror» in the shelter, the doctor could escape with his family and other families to the international road, where Syrian Army is. [...] The doctor also described the horrific scenes that he with his family saw of decomposed, tortured and beheaded bodies were thrown all over the streets. --CE (talk) 16:22, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ‘Slaughtered like sheep’: Eyewitnesses recount massacre in Adra, Syria, RT, December 17, 2013


 * ANNA News video: [Syria Краткая сводка о ситуации в Сирии за 19 декабря 2013 года +18] 5:47
 * Seems to show injured and dead rebels, civilians in the hospital, various scenes of destruction, footage we've seen of the victims, and supposedly new images. One small error: at 3:07 an image is shown of bloodied men, perhaps 20, laid out in a row. I recognize that from the Daraya massacre of August, 2012. Right after that at 3:13 is a photo of mangled and charred bodies tangled together - extra horrible. I have only seen this once before and recently, in an unclear context, somewhere on Facebook. It might be an image from Adra, but I was wondering about the alleged Aleppo "Playground Napalm Massacre" or something similar. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:15, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Adra cehennemi – Mehmet Serim, December 31, 2013
 * English summary on Facebook


 * Syria: Innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of the siege of Adra as Islamist rebels are accused of massacre, Patrick Cockburn, January 28, 2014


 * Cockburn is back in Syria and payed a visit to a Government-held part of Adra, talking to displaced people. Did we know that the "rebels" came through the sewers? How fitting - if true. --CE (talk) 16:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Rebel offensive

 * The Rebel Offensives in East Ghouta: “The Battle of God is the Greatest and Most Honorable” (November 22nd-December 21st) – Christopher Kingdon, 23 December 2013
 * The Saudi-Israeli offensive to break the blockade of al-Ghouta failed – Pierre Khalaf, 2 DECEMBER 2013

Activist Sources
Forthcoming, no promise of speed. SOHR, LCC, VDC (might be unusual coverage there considering the same-time Abduction of Razan Zaitouneh, and ... might this be connected?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * SOHR Facebook:


 * Dec. 11: Reef Dimashq: Islamist rebel groups attacked regime positions and the police branch in the town of Adra al-Ummaliya this morning. Several members of the police branch were killed and clashes continue in the town, regime forces fire mortars into the areas witnessing clashes. Reports that the rebels have taken over the police branch, the airforce security branch, the al-Jamarik area and the mills. Losses reported on both sides. 
 * Dec. 12, final death toll 13 civilians from minority sects (Alawite, Druze, Shi'a) were killed by the Islamist rebels that stormed the city of Adra al-Ummaliya in Reef Dimashq. The dead include a woman child and a doctor.
 * Dec. 14: Reef Dimashq: 12 bodies were found outside the city of Adra, activists accuse regime forces.
 * Dec. 15: Reef Dimashq: 32 civilians have been documented as killed after Jabhat al-Nusra and several other Islamist factions attacked the city of Adra al-Ummaliya on wednesday morning, most of the victims were Alawites, the casualties also include people from other minorities such as Shi'a and Druze,. the dead include no less than 2 children and 4 women. There are reports of dozens of disappeared persons in the city. 1 fighter from al-Nusra was killed by clashes in Adra.

VDC Queries
Span: Dec. 11-15
 * All Damascus suburbs martyrs listed as from Adra = 3. That's little help.

They cover the 12 bodies found story, where "activists accuse regime forces." "Unidentified" from the list above is one of them, and there are 11 others with numbers after unidentified (1-11) and "area" left empty:
 * all Damascus Suburbs, Dec. 14 = 14 adult males, 12 unidentified, with "Martyrdom location: Damascus Suburbs: Adra," Cause of Death: "Field Execution," and notes: "12 martyrs were Field executed by the regime's army forces in one of Adra Prison, and found their drad bodies inWest Adra Industrial."  At the one time when rebels were overrunning things like prisons, they have this story and yet more bodies. Two videos are included but neither helps much: a guy talking, perhaps explaining the story, and a funeral procession.

On to the remainder: all civilian deaths in Damascus subrubs, Dec. 11-13 = 47, mostly in Nabk, and clearly little to no unclaimed areas that could be Adra. The 12 is the first thing reported here so far.

Same for Dec. 15 = 11, all Douma and Doumair. The 12 is the last thing they reported too. Again, having "the regime" to blame is what gets your name on the VDC martyrs list. Otherwise, it's as if you don't exist. --Caustic Logic (talk) 04:36, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I had another more careful look, after some time to fill in later entries. Looking at the whole month, the reports of a rebel attack on the 11th are well illustrated, but without the civilian executions, in any number, and apparently no soldier/defender deaths (that list has been made harder to search). Violence on the 11th and shortly after would be initiated by the surprise rebel assault. As the days progress, the government counter-offensive can be blamed for violence with increasing plausibility.

All searches cover all December:
 * 10 civilians from Adra (area: Adra). These were killed by shooting on the 14th, 18, 19 (two dead), and 29th - all men. Five (three men and two boys) were killed by shelling, on the 1st, 21st, and 25th (three dead). Only one death was prior to the Dec. 11 reported attack, by shelling, on the 1st.

7 Non-civilians from Adra, local rebel fighters, presumably, died by shooting on the 12th, 15th, 18th, two on the 20th, and one each the 27th and 31st. x2, None before the 12th. Who was shooting at local rebels then?

From elsewhere, "martyrdom location: Adra" = 34 civilians: These are largely displaced people, from Damascus suburbs and Homs. A man was killed by shelling ("regime's") on the 12th, and no one by anything prior to that, it says. Government shelling of the liberated town is blamed for exactly four adult females from Jarba village, Damascus killed on the 16th, and strictly shelling killed the another 18, in clusters like that, up to December 27th.

From elsewhere, "martyrdom location: Adra" = 60 non-civilians! All 60 entries are adult males, killed by shooting, on dates beginning December 11 and running through the month, dying most heavily on the 11th-13th, and the 20th-22nd. Who was shooting them there, and why? These rebel fighters hailed almost totally from Damascus suburbs, mainly Douma, and a few from Homs or Deraa. It shows no foreigners (province: other, area: home country). The record is likely incomplete; the Islamists may have refused to share their civilian victims or their own casualties with the VDC, whose director someone had just abducted, in Douma.

Above I noted the only 14 executed people, on the 14th, and that's still all they have. But that's been updated. It was 14 entries long, now 11. Where 12 were unidentified, it's now only two. Field execution was changed to detention-execution. The location is filled-in. Consistently, these men were all from "Homs: Sukhna" (making it another of the Homs Massacres) And importantly, the notes have been changed. It had said "12 martyrs were Field executed by the regime's army forces in one of Adra Prison, and found their drad bodies inWest Adra Industrial." Now, the story is this: "Twelve worker were detained at Dumair's checkpoint, and were transported in the middle of the night to Adra in a military truck, then they were thrown at the ground with their hands cuffed then field executed with a machine gun, one of them was found alive and sent to a field hospital." The miracle survivor is of course how they got the improved story. Cleary they were dumped in rebel-Islamist-infested Adra, to make it appear the terrorists were responsible. Right?

And other than those, execution of civilians didn't happen in Adra, before or after the obvious rebel occupation. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Images, True and False
There are a number of images, mainly photos, of the Islamists' crimes in Adra, especially self-published ones of beheadings. These need some work, however, sorting authentic images from possibly authentic ones from recycled images of past events. The article SYRIA: Adra massacre: Militants show photos of those they beheaded is one source compiling these. An article run by Uruknet features "Alleged Adra Massacre Collated Media." It's useful. Images considered in order shown, with any additional info we have or find:
 * 28 men and boys, not beheaded but tortured, bloodied, and some with sliced throats, laid in a row on the ground. The critique only pins it down to a posting in August, but I know so much about it because it was already discussed here, after it was first publicized as part of the August, 2012 Daraya Massacre. Of the three videos I cited, only this one is still available. A prior posting of the very photo, again from a year later.
 * Charred mangled bodies, apparently children, shown by ANNA News after the Daraya scene: The article claims it's from an attack on Muslims in India. Not verified.
 * Six civilian bodies in a corner: This image seems to be from one of the Homs Massacres I haven't covered yet. Indeed, here it is with article from April 3, 2012.
 * Three beheaded men on stretchers - this, the collated media article claims, dates from July. Didn't verify, but the track record is good.
 * Two Islamist bad-asses pose with a man's severed head. - likely one of the others the critique claims to debunk
 * Apparently, scenes from the Houla massacre were also used on Syrian TV, etc.

This would leave us with very few non-recycled images to verify events in Adra. That's a problem best acknowledged. And it is troubling that people have been so eager for images they would open the story up to such attack by bolstering it with fake evidence. While I'm pretty sure there was a sizeable massacre that's roughly as Syrians are describing it, the whole stor(ies) aren't yet proven or clarified, and all these questions remain valid. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)