Talk:Bucha massacre

Precedents
Eleven years ago I and Adam Larson spent a lot of time analyzing what we called the "Khamis Brigade Massacre" in Tripoli, Libya.

Behind a military base was a shed that was used as a morgue. Some 50 dead Libyan solders had been collected there. When NATO forces reached the base they set the bodies on fire. They then claimed that these were "civilians that Gaddafi had massacred." Every Western media repeated the lie!

http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/08/tripoli-massacres-50-charred-skeletons.html

Russian MoD statement
⚡️🇷🇺Russian Defence Ministry denies accusations of Kiev regime of allegedly killing civilians in Bucha, Kiev Region

❗️All the photos and videos published by the Kiev regime allegedly testifying to some "crimes" committed by Russian servicemen in Bucha, Kiev region are just another provocation.

▫️During the time that the town has been under the control of the Russian armed forces, not a single local resident has suffered from any violent action. Russian servicemen have delivered and distributed 452 tonnes of humanitarian aid to civilians in Kiev Region.

▫️For as long as the town was under the control of the Russian armed forces and even then, up to now, locals in Bucha were moving freely around the town and using cellular phones.

❗️The exits from Bucha were not blocked. All local residents were free to leave the town in northern direction, including to the Republic of Belarus. At the same time, the southern outskirts of the city, including residential areas, were shelled round the clock by Ukrainian troops with large-calibre artillery, tanks and multiple launch rocket systems.

❗️We would like to emphasise that all Russian units withdrew completely from Bucha as early as March 30, the day after the Russia-Ukraine face-to-face round of talks in Turkey.

▫️Moreover, on March 31, the mayor of Bucha, Anatoliy Fedoruk, confirmed in a video message that there were no Russian servicemen in the town, but he did not even mention any locals shot in the streets with their hands tied.

▫️It is not surprising, therefore, that all the so-called "evidence of crimes" in Bucha did not emerge until the fourth day, when the Security Service of Ukraine and representatives of Ukrainian media arrived in the town.

▫️It is of particular worry that all the bodies of the people whose images have been published by the Kiev regime are not stiffened after at least four days, have no typical cadaver stains, and the wounds contain unconsumed blood.

❗️All this confirms conclusively that the photos and video footage from Bucha are another production by the Kiev regime for the Western media, as was the case in Mariupol with the maternity hospital, as well as in other cities.

https://t.me/mod_russia_en/656

Photos

 * https://mobile.twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1510547460875243529
 * https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1510524535879131141
 * https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1510605684668342274
 * https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1510606909895815172
 * https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1510597482597736458
 * In Ukrainian street, a corpse with hands bound and a bullet wound to the head - Reuters, April 5, 2022

Video

 * https://twitter.com/ViktoriiaUAH/status/1509985789404459011
 * https://twitter.com/vertiporokh/status/1510510799336398850
 * https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1510372750665433089
 * https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1510576059984527361
 * https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1510608649193938949
 * https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1510608084447776776
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUH-3ePHO-w

Testimony
(Abramova Irina Vadimirovna, mainpage). Doubtful. The body of course does not look like a body killed a month earlier. (BTW, a glimpse on the head in the first second, low quality, covered with something black, looks like a mask). The body must be brought there for filming. It will be buried well before a month time, out of respect, and how and why to keep the body, and protect from elements and animals, esp. if the house is burned as they say. If it was kept at the morgue, it would not be thrown on the road, half dressed like this and making an impression it is just getting collected. The woman clearly gestures as if the body is that of her husband, while it does not add up. If she had her husband killed, it would be unnatural and wrong to make an impression that another body is her husband's, or be unaware of such an impression being made. All that said, terrible things do happen in wars (who knows, who that man was, and how/why he died-if he did). But this story, appears staged --Resup (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

E40 roadside killings

 * Gruesome evidence points to war crimes on road outside Kyiv - BBC News, April 1, 2022
 * Charles Wood, Twitter, April 2, 2022
 * ''BBC Willingly publish obvious Ukraine propaganda. Civilian vehicle hit by gunfire but tank facing opposite direction. Ukr soldier showing false line of fire. Car shows bullets from beyond tank from Ukr lines up the road.

Pavel Gubarev on Telegram
Pavel Gubarev on Telegram, translation posted as a comment on Saker's blog:
 * ''Regarding what happened in Bucha, I can add my 5 kopecks after Alexander Kots. From 2 to 31 I was part of the battalion in this direction. In all the settlements occupied by our military, the movement of civilians along the street was carried out with a white bandage on their left arm. I saw this in Ivankovo, Krasny Rog, Maryanovka and other settlements where we went on combat missions.
 * ''I guess the following happened. After the withdrawal of the RF Armed Forces from this theater of operations following the results of negotiations in Turkey, the Armed Forces of Ukraine began to enter cities and villages and unintentionally (and I do not exclude that on purpose) opened fire on men with a white bandage on their hands. It happened en masse. And when they realized that they were massacring civilians, it was decided to present this crime of theirs as the work of the RF Armed Forces.
 * ''Private of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Pavel Gubarev

Top comments on Ukrainian police video

 * Special forces of the National Police are cleaning up the city of Bucha - National Police of Ukraine, April 2, 2022 (archive)
 * Currently, the city employs fighters of the established special purpose regiment of the SAFARI National Police, which includes representatives of special police units, fighters of KORD and Thor, as well as specialists of the explosives service. Today, April 2, in the liberated city of Bucha, Kyiv region, special units of the National Police of Ukraine began clearing the area of ​​saboteurs and accomplices of Russian troops. Specialists of the Explosive Ordnance Disposal Service inspect the places of war crimes of the Russian Federation and seize explosive devices and ammunition that have not detonated. Law enforcement officers inspect every yard and shelter, communicate with people and provide assistance to local residents. Citizens who had to endure the horrors of the occupation are helping the police as much as possible. The police are doing everything possible to restore law and order in the liberated territories,

1,351 Comments


 * Lyudmila Brykova, 4 hours ago (188)
 * The same question as everyone else: where were those killed on the way at the time of the entry of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? The dead appeared later, under the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The state should protect citizens, not kill without trial and investigation!
 * Kefir Aladiev, 14 minutes ago (8)
 * very unlucky that you recorded this video now it is very good for us)
 * MAXIM SOKOLOV. 12 hours ago (230)
 * It is convenient and safe to carry out a “cleansing” when there has been no one there for 3 days
 * Sea Man, 13 hours ago (95)
 * I watched this video and understood what it was about, it seemed to start like a terrifying movie, and my aunt smiles, nothing terrible is visible on her face
 * Mikhail Belousov, 31 minutes ago (edited) (16)
 * The only people they can clear out of the city are civilians. They are good at this
 * Eugene Smart, 10 hours ago (63)
 * From whom did you clean up from grandmothers and children, the theater of the absurd where were you when the Russian army was there! ,, defenders ,,)))
 * vintage dress, 3 hours ago (125)
 * We drove into the city, talked to people, then they were killed and laid out along the road. Cool defenders
 * Alex, 9 hours ago (313)
 * Ummm one question ... Where are all the bodies that all our media are trumpeting about? The National Police was the first to enter Bucha, and then there was not a single body on the street (except for the first seconds) ... And after entering, well, the police were already asking the media, and suddenly terrible shots appeared ...
 * WayDownWeGo, 7 hours ago (175)
 * Just great guys! We entered the city when there were no more Russian troops. And the next day they publish a video that the Russians left behind heaps of corpses. In this video, apparently these civilians are still alive.
 * Anna Nekhokhlova, 7 hours ago (159)
 * No corpses, no complaints about corpses, just hypocritical smiles like "we were waiting for you" ...
 * Andrey Chelentanov, 8 hours ago (235)
 * Handsome! Thank you for the video... now it's clear after whom the corpses appeared on the streets... after this cleansing.
 * Amalagus, 9 hours ago (99)
 * The same warriors the next day cleared the city of the civilian population, do I understand the story of the corpses on the streets correctly?
 * MrTheMamash, 8 hours ago (167)
 * What is it? That the Armed Forces of Ukraine took the abandoned city on the 2nd without corpses on the streets? Then why did a mountain of corpses appear on the streets on the 3rd after their cleansing? It turns out that during the night they shot all those who disagreed without trial or investigation?
 * Murad Bulatov, 9 hours ago (187)
 * Video from the second of April, why didn’t a single corpse, which everyone is talking about today, get into the frame? Video from the second of April, why didn't a single corpse get into the frame, which everyone is talking about today?

Alexander Kots on execution video
You know what hooked me the most in the new brutal video of the murder of our fighters. They did not die in battle, they were killed in cold blood when they were already captured. One of our fighters is twitching and wheezing. He is finished off with shots from a machine gun under satisfied comments. At first I assumed that the wheezing was the result of a bullet hitting the lung. But the camera grabs one of the dead. White bandage on the sleeve, hands tied behind the back. Exactly exactly as on the frames from Bucha, similar handwriting.

They didn't die from bullets. Under each of the paratroopers is a large pool of scarlet blood. This does not happen after a gunshot wound. Most likely they were ambushed and captured by beasts in military uniform. Tied hands speak for it. And then, one by one, their throats were slit - the wheezing indicates just that.

The bastards who record their truest war crime lack the reflection, shame, and moral restraints that separate us humans from terrorist scum like ISIS*. The same non-humans with police armbands and chevrons of the SS division of Galicia 80 years ago stabbed babies with bayonets, broke bone after bone for partisans, drove women and the elderly into barns, setting them on fire and enjoying screams of horror. They are proud of their infernal cruelty, they shoot a video, send it to friends, maybe even relatives: “Look, mom, what a garrulous son you raised. I'm already cutting my own throats." I wonder what mother thinks about her child-murderer. And against this background, a bearded Chechen officer from the National Guard (who, no doubt, can cut off the head of an enemy) is lecturing a battalion of captured Ukrainian marines about friendship between peoples. 260 people surrendered the day before to Russian troops in Mariupol, knowing that they would not be tortured. That they will not be shot, their throats will not be cut, they will be kept warm, fed, treated if necessary. And they will return home to their mother with a glowing and pinkish look. This is the difference between us - between humans and crazed animal terrorists.

https://t.me/sashakots/30835

Boatswain video
⚡️ 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 “Please don't kill. Do not want!"

We once again watched the video of Boatswain and Beleniuk from Bucha. The one where the go-ahead is given to shoot at people without blue armbands.

If you turn the volume up to the maximum, then at the very end of the video you can hear the words “Please don’t kill. Do not want!" and two "shuffles" similar to the sounds of gunshots recorded on a GoPro camera. A young guy of 20 years old is screaming.

This is a direct confirmation of the fact that local residents were shot on Vokzalnaya Street after the withdrawal of Russian troops. The execution itself was carried out on Vokzalnaya Street, in the very place where the Russian column was burned on February 27. For convenience, we attach a diagram.

https://t.me/rybar/30544

Ilya Kiva on Bucha

 * Ilya Kiva, on Bucha April 2022 - April 4, 2022 (video)
 * ''People are really stupid, I read the comments and I just have no words, and once again I tell you, the official information: The whole story in Bucha was prepared and planned in advance by the SBU and MI6. They arrived early in the morning, cordoned off the area, scattered the corpses and then sent journalists there. That's why that clown Zelensky even came back. To raise the interest of the international press in the alleged tragedy, but it's all a pure fake. Why didn't such a situation take place in other areas? Don`t you understand that it was staged in advance, which was supposed to arouse the aggression and hatred in you first of all. But it didn't happen.
 * Juan Sinmiedo on Telegram, May 17, 2022 (video)
 * ''These Ukrainian soldier tells to the camera how some civilians "lovers of the Russian world" in Kiev Oblast were executed without trial and warns that many more will be murdered.
 * ''Thanks to:https://vm.tiktok.com/ZML3VskXY/

Bucha: analysis of new photos and satellite images from the Rybar team

 * https://t.me/rybar/30578
 * https://t.me/rybar/30580
 * https://t.me/rybar/30582
 * https://t.me/rybar/30585
 * https://t.me/rybar/30588
 * https://t.me/rybar/30594
 * https://t.me/rybar/30598
 * https://t.me/rybar/30627


 * Debunked
 * Benjamin Strick @BenDoBrown on Twitter, April 10, 2022
 * ''Pro-Russian accounts and 'fake news' sites are trying to claim that satellite imagery from @Maxar, posted by @nytimes, showing bodies on the streets of Ukraine's Bucha are fake, but in this thread, you're going to see how silly pro-Russian disinformation attempts can be 🧵👇

What is Bellingcat doing?
A comment from the Moon of Alabama blog.
 * Its perhaps telling that Bellingcat's most recent article addressing Bucha only looks at countering the low hanging fruit of (a) moving hand/corpse sitting up, (b) Russian statements of evidence coming on April 3rd when the was first was actually April 1st. They also attempt to discount Russian claims of having left the area on March 30th by saying the Secretary of the City Council said the town was still occupied on April 1st. Apart from the fact that Ukrainian troops were in the town by that day and may have instructed him directly to say that, and the Mayor claiming liberation the day before, we have messages from the Botsman Boys saying they had nothing to do when they arrived on April 1st.
 * Conspicuously absent are any references to, or attempts to address, the presence of troops on April 1st, statements that these troops were engaged in an operation cleanse the area of Russian collaborators, the video where they receive permission to shoot civilians, the fact that many victims wore white Russian bands, that victims had received humanitarian aid, that bodies had been moved and photographed in different locations, that victims were very recently dead, that there are counterarguments to the NYT satellite shots, or (a key factor in any criminal case) Russia lacked a clear motivation to do this, and a strong reason not to, while Ukraine has a very clear motivation.
 * Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 6 2022 14:31 utc | 578
 * Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 6 2022 14:31 utc | 578
 * Posted by: Brannagyn | Apr 6 2022 14:31 utc | 578

Ukrainian comments

 * Who was the first to enter Bucha? - Telegram, April 13, 2022

Oleg Tsarev on SBU action in Irpin and Bucha

 * Oleg Tsarev on Telegram, April 3, 2022 12:09 UTC
 * ''SBU is preparing a cynical provocation with corpses to accuse Russia of war crimes
 * ''According to our sources in Kyiv, the SBU is preparing a large-scale provocation in order to accuse Russian troops of massacres and torture of civilians. For this purpose, the bodies of those killed in the dungeons of the SBU are brought to the cities of Irpen and Bucha, where bloody battles took place. As you know, these cities were abandoned by Russian troops as part of the redeployment. The Americans ordered the SBU to urgently take all those shot in their dungeons to these cities, scatter the corpses on the streets, in destroyed houses. The task was set to bring to Irpen and Bucha about 300 corpses of dead citizens of Ukraine, including those shot in the dungeons of the SBU. In particular, the SBU arrested everyone who collaborated with Oleg Tsarev during the distribution of humanitarian aid in the village of Borodyanka. They were shot, and their corpses were transported to Bucha and Irpin.
 * ''Horrific footage of the dead, most of whom were shot in the back of the head, will be presented to the world media as evidence of the brutal treatment of the local population by Russian troops. As planned by the SBU and their American curators, all this should take place according to the scenario of a staged "chemical attack" in the Syrian city of Douma.

Fléchettes
The Guardian publishes the first results of a forensic examination of the bodies found in Irpen and Bucha Recall that the shelling of Bucha, occupied by the RF Armed Forces, was carried out by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and no one particularly denies this.
 * 1) People were killed not by bullets, but by fragments of anti-personnel shells - during shelling, which does not fit with the statements of the Ukrainian side about the executions of civilians;
 * 2) Such munitions are not prohibited by conventions, but their use in cities is a violation of humanitarian law;
 * 3) The experts determined that such "darts" are used in the 122 mm ZSh-1 projectile;
 * 4) The projectile is used mainly in the D-30 howitzer, which is in service with both Russia and Ukraine;

https://t.me/OpenUkraine/14872

British involvement?
Lukashenka said that the provocation in Ukrainian Bucha was organized by the British, who arrived from Lviv]

"Stop lying. You are in vain giving the example of Bucha. What happened in Bucha (I don't know how much you are immersed in this) - we know who organized this window dressing. There were mostly British people who arrived from Lviv in cars (I think we saw 4 cars, handed over the license plates to the Russians), filmed in Bucha and then threw them into the information space. I know how this is done. Therefore, there is no need to talk about Bucha," Lukashenka said. @RVvoenkor

https://t.me/RVvoenkor/10948

Fake? Russians kill two security guards

 * CNN...
 * Ukraine conflict: Russian soldiers seen shooting dead unarmed civilians - BBC, May 12, 2022
 * Proof of war crimes or another fake? A detailed analysis of the high-profile CNN report. - ZA PRAVDU / FOR THE TRUTH, May 12, 2022
 * @MiG31BmFoxhound on Twitter
 * CL on twitter 1, 2, 3
 * the Russians did it because: uniforms, (not stolen?),
 * The free drinks scene does not look like standard issue Ru AF uniforms, it looks like white bands on something military-enough looking. While it is known that in L/DPR forces there is a severe (physical) punishment for even smell of alcohol, and their looks seems different either. These people look like dressed-up maraudeurs, if anything
 * a van marked V and "Tank Spentsnaz" (legitimate?),
 * no such thing as "Tank Spentsnaz" of course
 * orcish behavior even though they "have no idea they're being filmed" or that smashing a camera doesn't destroy the recording, the Ukrainians didn't stop them... What else?
 * With Bucha thing in doubt +waning, and testimonies/evidence about Ukrainian side conduct towards prisoners, civilians, there may be a need for another psyop installation, which can be easily furnished. In any case, whoever those are, need to be punished for the crime.

Found it hard to find on Google maps. CNN says, vehicle dealership, along a main road to Kiev. There is an autoservice complex 32 km nearby with some similarities, but the roof seems different from graphics above. (How would 'Russians' driving around in armored military vehicles, would be interested in autoservice? The latter on the other hand is a typical target for local racketeering; while weapons were issued by Ukr authorities; and it does not take much to put white bands on).
 * Place

One thing is whether shadows in 'spetznaz van,' walk-by trailer, and shooting scene are all consistent (probably, if graphics linked above is accurate; link to location map would help) --Resup (talk) 15:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC) --Resup (talk) 15:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

At about 2:26 on CNN video, 18.03.2022 Friday at 16:32:03+ time stamped. While guards getting dressed up in their boot is time-stamped ...2 Saturday 13:38:** (date is cut off, perhaps to say 19:03:2022, or some earlier weeks?). CNN dates it as 16.03.2022 --Resup (talk) 16:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Time