Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations

Via M of O: ''The reported neighborhoods of this reported chemical attack in the Damascus Al-Ghouta area are: Hammuriyah, Irbin, Saqba, Kafr Batna, Mudamiyah, Harasta, Zamalka and Ain Terma. Those are rebel-held areas and have been all this year.''

Looking at the two maps it seems the numbers listed are Hammuriyah: 300, Irbin: 64+17+16+30, Saqba: ?, Kafr Batna: 150, Mudamiyah: ?, Harasta: ?, Zamalka: 400 and Ain Terma: 75. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Irbin 63 (30 children, 16 women, 17 men), Hamouriya 300, Saqba 69, Zamalka 400, Kafr Batna 150, Ayn Tarma 75 and Jisrayn 16 (3 children) and al-Muaddamiya 70 (plus 300 wounded).Jokkmokks goran (talk) 19:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)



NY Times interactive map. Attack areas very close together, suspected launch site in Qaboun, but barely, almost in Jobar. And it shows Jobar hit, about ten blocks away from the launch site. Says UN investigators were attacked on the edge of rebel-infested Moadamiya SW of Damascus. this article says A map with a NYT article shows the launch site in a disputed area, which both Qaboun and Jobar are listed as. However, I didn't see the same map there, and it's very zoomed-out and imprecise. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Felim McMahon map
Felim McMahon has published a map on Google Maps: The map is accompanied by this record of activist reports. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * East Ghouta 'chemical attack' – Google Maps
 * Alleged CW Attacks - Geography, Chronology – Felim McMahon, August 21, 2013

Rocket impact sites

 * ''See also Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Rocket attack

McMahon identifies the two UMLACA sites in Ein Tarma neighboring Zamalka from videos of the UN visit. The location of UMLACA #197 was earlier fond by Brown Moses. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * SYRIA: PUBLIC Geolocation of alleged chemical rockets in East Ghouta - August 28
 * Analysis on the origin of CW missile #197 that landed in Ghouta, Syria. – August 25, 2013

Jobar

 * See /Jobar

Zamalka

 * See /Zamalka

HRW uses the Zamalka Coordinating Committee as its source. Do they have a YouTube channel, Facebook page? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

One photo: #Syria, this is Zamalka where more than 800 martyrs of the #CWmassacre – Yallasouriya, August 21, 2013

This story has video of the Zamalka "dead cats and dogs zone", including video from the Zamalka ghost house.
 * Hundreds of dead cats and dogs are removed from the streets of Damascus suburb hit by nerve gas attack – DAMIEN GAYLE, Daily Mail, 23 August 2013


 * More deaths in houses Zamalka: Syrian Opposition
 * ''"We expect the number (of deaths) to grow because we just Zamalka to discover a neighborhood where houses full of dead people," said the spokesman of the opposition Syrian National Coalition, Khaled Saleh was quoted by the Arab network Al Arabiya.


 * Some Zamalka stuff here.

More Zamaltka videos here.

Zamalka hospital and morgue
To be located

I went through the Shaam gallery for Damascus countryside, but could not find any photos that were labeled as Zamalka. Maybe the 400 bodies were too degraded to be shown on film and had to be directly dumped into the mass grave, before any mourning could take place. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Zamalka Mass Grave

 * Zamalka 21/08/2013 man lost his temper after he lost his family and the people of his neighborhood
 * This shows the start of an anonymous rebel-run mass grave. These are dug after each contested massacre. So far, only a few adult males are laid in there, and a guy with a koran held aloft is ranting. It's in a large clearing I might be able to find, despite the koran blocking the view. Presuming early afternoon (Aug. 21, must be later in the day), the camera is facing about west or southwest. Zamalka on Wikimapia - it's set so its west is generally a bit SW. Here's one good fit. A problem is the whole view to the left/south, as seen at 0:22. I'll be back with more guesses. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (Belated location link, sorry) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's my guess. Too hard to explain all details, but it seems he's way at the NW corner of this lot (ie in the intersection), just north of the building seen hard left at 0:22. Perhaps a new wall, or the same one there curving away to the south? Circular dot on roof, check. Earlier, looking WSW, far right a distance building with a tall part - no such match, but if the tall part could be the water tower on that same line, match. Other details line up enough I'll say this spot, some foreground buildings torn down, fresh dozing, maybe expanded out into area that was pavement, maybe a new wall. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The video is published at 2013-08-21T12:35:31.000Z i.e. 3:35 pm in Syria. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, seems to fit. Might help verify place or date (filmed earlier than 3:35). --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is strange, the clearing is very prominent, yet I cannot find it anywhere in western Damascus. I did not look earlier, as I thought this would be trivial for someone else to place on the map. Evidently not so. Note the power line on the left, should help in locating the place. The 5-story building straight ahead (to the south or west depending on the time of the day) is particularly large for its type, seven rows of windows + one for the stairwell. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, I think I found it. And I clearly said "here." You just weren't looking where I was pointing. Duh. :P No, somehow I never linked it. That would have been my reference. Will be as soon as I re-locate the spot that's at least a pretty good fit. Saving now, next revision, will appear above. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Added above. I'll let you double-check/second guess and move on. Cheers! --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I recognize the buildings in the February 12, 2012 Google Earth image. Your location is not quite correct, it is 130 meters northeast, in the junkyard, across the street from the green walled-off area at the southern end of the red long factory-type building. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Right on. All the distance stuff matches, but it still looked a little weird, and this refinement explains those last parts. Same row of pillars is there, isn't it? So it that lot, one spot verified in Damascus. Do we see any real number of bodies ever put in there? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

This video by singer Abu Ammar Moaaz has more footage from the Zamalka mass grave. More bodies are brought in, including children. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Clip very touching, vocalist Abu Ammar Moaaz, during the massacre East Gouta by chemical weapons
 * Ah, thanks! Noted where it just came up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The sequence in question (finally watched it) makes me upset and highly suspicious these people are Alawites or something. As I just decided to say in comments there: Wow those are some dead-baby-shakers. Why do those men hate those kids so much? They're really shaking them around a lot. I was getting nervous that they'd start swinging them into the ground by one arm to show how upset they are. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Lucum has done some extremely good work at his Eskimo blog. The VDC video also shows individual graves, similar in type to the pit were the ghost house children were dumped. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) First, he has located videos of the "burial of more than 80 martyrs as a result of the massacre" on July 1, 2012. These older mass graves are in fact visible on the default Google Earth image. He calculates that at most 40 victims could have been buried in the August 21, 2013 mass grave.
 * 2) He has also found a VDC video uploaded August 21 from the grave site. It shows a book with the names of 149 victims. The names are written on a blank calender or diary for the year 2007. The names start on the page for Saturday, August 21, 2007 and go on for several pages. It does not seem possible, that the people recorded were buried at this site.


 * Interesting page, very cool finds. videos exactly a year apart? I agree on the surface-area-allowed body capacity, 40 sounds reasonable, but including kids, probably 50 could fit. It could also be expanded. And one thing I'm noticing now is how friggin' deep that grave is. I guess they usually try to dig down a way, but this seems super deep. Piling isn't normal, but none of this is. You could get a few layers of 40 each in there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * And as for the koran pointing the wrong way, as Lucum noted, funny. But the guy is covering his eyes from the dust, and probably they're all just so disoriented by the unknown toxic chemical gas clouds, right? Or are they presiding of anti-Muslims, so doing things backwards? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Zamalka ghost house

 * ''Main article Zamalka ghost house

Now stated to be in Zamalka, see Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Zamalka ghost house

Hints: The neighborhood looks deserted, most likely because of the near-by front line. The cameramen are warned not to go to the roof because of the danger from snipers. the same house is also discussed in this article, so the videos there may be of some help. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What time is the visit? Where is the sun coming from? Does the stairwell face south, east or west? These are the only three possibilities in the Zamalka grid plan. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Excellent stills. Sun is low and long. I would guess at 3:43 they're looking west (generally WSW in Zamalka) and it's afternoon. 36 hours suggests that. And it usually is. If not, then morning and roughly opposite. I decided to look around a bit, mainly for that prominent large building with two stairwells. I'm guessing I won't find it now. Will sleep in a few. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This (on Google Maps) is the type of building that could explain a PM view. Does that left side curve away on video? This could be it, but no opinion on the foreground. Otherwise, building with those double stairwells are common, motst facing the other way and working better with a morning view. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The two-stairwell building is special for the large number of windows between the stairwells: six. At first I thought this would be on the southwestern edge of Zamalka, looking east, but based on the location of the UMLACA impacts published by HRW, I decided it was most likely on the eastern side, looking west. I have not had time to look or even check you match on Google Earth. There are few good photos on Google Earth looking west – in fact only one and it is awfully dark.
 * The number of impact sites here, could indicate this is the site of a gas rocket attack. It could also indicate this is a contested area, long since abandoned by its inhabitants – a perfect place to plant fake gas attack bodies! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I find this a likely match. There are three rooms (apartments) between the stairwells, each with a window and some kind of balcony. The ghost house would be the 4 1/2 story building 250 meters to the west (both figures exact, here on Google Maps). Both these buildings do not show up in the March 3, 2010 satellite photo, but construction is well under way on May 5, 2011. It is likely that ate least one of the sites would be left unfinished because of the crisis and war. I think I am able to identify three of the higher buildings in between. The west-facing courtyard in front of the ghost house is a good match.
 * Note, that the ghost house has a large cellar, perfect for holding prisoners – although they would need to wall up the windows first. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed, that's a very likely match. Was strolling around a bit and found this one further west but the windows don't really match and I couldn't come up with a plausible place for the ghost house. The two-stairwell building in question has two lines of windows from the one stairway to the end, and three lines of windows from the other one to the end, which it also seems to have on the map (2 north, 3 south). And there seems to be the little roof garden in the proper line close to the ghost house. --CE (talk) 17:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * For some reason my uploaded picture gets messed up, I placed the location on the HRW impact map. But we all know where it is anyway - exactly where it "should be", between two close "impacts" and near a couple of others. The plot thickens. Maybe time to watch the HRW videos. --CE (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Plot thickens... Are you saying this is the time to use theatrical props, like smoke generators, pyrotechnics and sarin dispensers? - ??


 * I checked the vantage point too for the unique rooftop nearby, sloped-roof structure on the near side, greenery on the other. There's a rooftop like that nearest the building. Sun angle makes the sloped roof less clear, but that's it. Red tanks, bright as hell on video, don't seem to appear from space here. No surprise.--Caustic Logic (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Kafr Batna hospital

 * See also /Kafr Batna

The larges collection of victims is seen in the videos from the Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee. The two earliest videos show nighttime outside scenes, with people in panic. The location is a hospital, possibly a temporary field hospital set up in a school or other public building. The large number of victims (100+) indicates that place could in fact be in Zamalka, with its reported 340 victims and not in Kafr Batna.

Photos of the victims on Facebook here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here

Wikimapia shows an Al-Fateh Hospital in Kafr Batna. Rebel videos from September 2012 show a fire at the hospital: FNN Syria Kafar Batna Regime thugs are burning al Fateh hospital 1 9 2012 (2, 3). This is not the place with the CW victims.

Searching images and videos for Kafr Batna + hospital (مستشفى& كفربطنا+مستشفى) did not produce a match. No luck for Zamalka + hospitat on Goolge or YouTube either. There is a hospital or field hospital in Zamalka shown in these two videos, but it does not look like the same place. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Reconstruction
The hospital is separated from a street by a stone-pawed courtyard. Between the courtyard and the street is a fence with ball-topped pillars. Inside ther fence is a narrow strip of vegetation behind a low retaining wall. (This video of a similar fence in an unrelated hospital hints that the fence could be facing south.) We see two cars passing on the street from right to left. On the opposite side of the street are some multi-story buildings. Outside the fence grow some tall trees. The daytime view from the window shows the sun shining on the upper floors of the buildings across the street, indicating that the windows are in a northerly direction.

The large brightly lit room or hall used as a morgue is parallel to the street and the courtyard, with a row of large windows facing the courtyard. The entrance to the building is to the right of the hall, with stairs and a ramp on the right side. Behind the ramp is another wing of the building, perpendicular to the main hall, with light shining out of the cellar windows. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's possible maybe to find the spot from that photo, but man... I say the spot is only so important - maybe important, likely not. If we see anything that makes finding it easy, it should be done. Headaches and wasted hours for unsure results on possibly semi-important info - not for me anyway.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Found it! It is one block north from where Google Earth places the Kafr Batna spot next to the central roundabout. The building is a 7 story rectangular office building with a 1 story annex in the back. The fence and the courtyard are best seen looking from the north on the 26 June 2009 image. Here on Google Maps. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Saqba schoolyard bodies
A number of bodies are shown in nighttime shots placed on the pavement of what seems to be a school yard. The same scene is seen in daytime on this video of an agitated Salafist making a speech. There is graffiti on the school walls that has been painted over. The school gate is seen on the video as is some of the surroundings, including an electricity pole right outside the gate.

I have named the set of photos as Douma victims, as one further nighttime photo with a Douma logo has similar appearance with specs of dirt on lens. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Good start in getting all this set to one location and positing Douma. IF this was pretty sure Douma, would help, but even then that's a big town. And we have some visuals, but too many rotations possible. No clear sunlight angles here. Seems very cloudy, or else before full sunrise. Until you can be sure what direction that power pole and big tree are in, it's a cluster of headaches to look for all possible fits. Yet another I'll be sitting out for now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Syrian schools are quote easy to spot on the map, all have similar prefabricated architecture. I do not think there are too many in Douma. P.S. Found one in Ein Tarma that could be the place. P.P.S. The Ein Tarma school has similar design, but the wing lining the street is only one story, as the school on the video is two story. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Found it! It is in southern Saqba, opposite this telephone exchange on Wikimapia, here on Google maps. The video camera and the school gate is facing north-northeast. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:10, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Video from the Saqba site by HRW's activist contact SaqbaRevo0:
 * غوطة الشرقية 21-8-2013 مجزرة وعشرات الشهداء والمصابين بقصف زملكا وعين ترما بالكيماوي 2 ( Eastern Ghouta 21/08/2013 massacre of tens of martyrs and injured pounding Zamalka and Ain Tarma chemotherapy part 2)
 * الغوطة الشرقية 21-8-2013 شهداء ومصابين نتيجة قصف النظام السوري بالسلاح الكيماوي جـ6 (East Gouta 08/21/2013 martyrs and injured as a result of the bombing of the Syrian regime's chemical weapons – Part 6)
 * part 7

Erbin hospital

 * ''Moved to Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations/Erbin


 * Morgue with ice
 * Moved images from section below.

This is in Irbeen, I decided when collecting photos, though I'm not sure how I triangulated that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the photos match the NBC video from Erbin hospital. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Morgue sites
Here are some videos showing distinct morgue sites:
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF07XRSwTbQ
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ikSDwo5lhg
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LzKqgpk_TA
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRzLOWPXFQE
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKJgPk1gfk8 – Children brought in on pickup truck.
 * Collection of photos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNFP31HRaP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_Ju6742Z0

Unidentified photos
Video