Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations

Via M of A: ''The reported neighborhoods of this reported chemical attack in the Damascus Al-Ghouta area are: Hammuriyah, Irbin, Saqba, Kafr Batna, Mudamiyah, Harasta, Zamalka and Ain Terma. Those are rebel-held areas and have been all this year.''

Looking at the two maps it seems the numbers listed are Hammuriyah: 300, Irbin: 64+17+16+30, Saqba: ?, Kafr Batna: 150, Mudamiyah: ?, Harasta: ?, Zamalka: 400 and Ain Terma: 75. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Irbin 63 (30 children, 16 women, 17 men), Hamouriya 300, Saqba 69, Zamalka 400, Kafr Batna 150, Ayn Tarma 75 and Jisrayn 16 (3 children) and al-Muaddamiya 70 (plus 300 wounded).Jokkmokks goran (talk) 19:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

How is it possible there casualties in Hammuriyah and Saqba and Kafr Batna and none in Hazeh ???! The gas ostensibly came from a number of strikes in South Zamalka. It would have had to pass directly through Hazeh to reach Hammuriyah and Saqba and Kafr Batna yet we have no casualty reports from Hazeh. Something is extremely fishy here --Charles Wood (talk) 09:31, 20 April 2014 (UTC)



NY Times interactive map. Attack areas very close together, suspected launch site in Qaboun, but barely, almost in Jobar. And it shows Jobar hit, about ten blocks away from the launch site. Says UN investigators were attacked on the edge of rebel-infested Moadamiya SW of Damascus. this article says A map with a NYT article shows the launch site in a disputed area, which both Qaboun and Jobar are listed as. However, I didn't see the same map there, and it's very zoomed-out and imprecise. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Felim McMahon map
Felim McMahon has published a map on Google Maps: The map is accompanied by this record of activist reports. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * East Ghouta 'chemical attack' – Google Maps
 * Alleged CW Attacks - Geography, Chronology – Felim McMahon, August 21, 2013

Rocket impact sites

 * ''See also Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Rocket attack

McMahon identifies the two UMLACA sites in Ein Tarma neighboring Zamalka from videos of the UN visit. The location of UMLACA #197 was earlier fond by Brown Moses. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * SYRIA: PUBLIC Geolocation of alleged chemical rockets in East Ghouta - August 28
 * Analysis on the origin of CW missile #197 that landed in Ghouta, Syria. – August 25, 2013

Jobar

 * See /Jobar

Zamalka

 * See /Zamalka

HRW uses the Zamalka Coordinating Committee as its source. Do they have a YouTube channel, Facebook page? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

One photo: #Syria, this is Zamalka where more than 800 martyrs of the #CWmassacre – Yallasouriya, August 21, 2013

This story has video of the Zamalka "dead cats and dogs zone", including video from the Zamalka ghost house.
 * Hundreds of dead cats and dogs are removed from the streets of Damascus suburb hit by nerve gas attack – DAMIEN GAYLE, Daily Mail, 23 August 2013


 * More deaths in houses Zamalka: Syrian Opposition
 * ''"We expect the number (of deaths) to grow because we just Zamalka to discover a neighborhood where houses full of dead people," said the spokesman of the opposition Syrian National Coalition, Khaled Saleh was quoted by the Arab network Al Arabiya.


 * Some Zamalka stuff here.

More Zamaltka videos here.

Zamalka hospital and morgue
To be located

I went through the Shaam gallery for Damascus countryside, but could not find any photos that were labeled as Zamalka. Maybe the 400 bodies were too degraded to be shown on film and had to be directly dumped into the mass grave, before any mourning could take place. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 08:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Zamalka Mass Grave

 * Zamalka 21/08/2013 man lost his temper after he lost his family and the people of his neighborhood
 * This shows the start of an anonymous rebel-run mass grave. These are dug after each contested massacre. So far, only a few adult males are laid in there, and a guy with a koran held aloft is ranting. It's in a large clearing I might be able to find, despite the koran blocking the view. Presuming early afternoon (Aug. 21, must be later in the day), the camera is facing about west or southwest. Zamalka on Wikimapia - it's set so its west is generally a bit SW. Here's one good fit. A problem is the whole view to the left/south, as seen at 0:22. I'll be back with more guesses. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (Belated location link, sorry) --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's my guess. Too hard to explain all details, but it seems he's way at the NW corner of this lot (ie in the intersection), just north of the building seen hard left at 0:22. Perhaps a new wall, or the same one there curving away to the south? Circular dot on roof, check. Earlier, looking WSW, far right a distance building with a tall part - no such match, but if the tall part could be the water tower on that same line, match. Other details line up enough I'll say this spot, some foreground buildings torn down, fresh dozing, maybe expanded out into area that was pavement, maybe a new wall. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The video is published at 2013-08-21T12:35:31.000Z i.e. 3:35 pm in Syria. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, seems to fit. Might help verify place or date (filmed earlier than 3:35). --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is strange, the clearing is very prominent, yet I cannot find it anywhere in western Damascus. I did not look earlier, as I thought this would be trivial for someone else to place on the map. Evidently not so. Note the power line on the left, should help in locating the place. The 5-story building straight ahead (to the south or west depending on the time of the day) is particularly large for its type, seven rows of windows + one for the stairwell. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, I think I found it. And I clearly said "here." You just weren't looking where I was pointing. Duh. :P No, somehow I never linked it. That would have been my reference. Will be as soon as I re-locate the spot that's at least a pretty good fit. Saving now, next revision, will appear above. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Added above. I'll let you double-check/second guess and move on. Cheers! --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I recognize the buildings in the February 12, 2012 Google Earth image. Your location is not quite correct, it is 130 meters northeast, in the junkyard, across the street from the green walled-off area at the southern end of the red long factory-type building. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Right on. All the distance stuff matches, but it still looked a little weird, and this refinement explains those last parts. Same row of pillars is there, isn't it? So it that lot, one spot verified in Damascus. Do we see any real number of bodies ever put in there? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

This video by singer Abu Ammar Moaaz has more footage from the Zamalka mass grave. More bodies are brought in, including children. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Clip very touching, vocalist Abu Ammar Moaaz, during the massacre East Gouta by chemical weapons
 * Ah, thanks! Noted where it just came up. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The sequence in question (finally watched it) makes me upset and highly suspicious these people are Alawites or something. As I just decided to say in comments there: Wow those are some dead-baby-shakers. Why do those men hate those kids so much? They're really shaking them around a lot. I was getting nervous that they'd start swinging them into the ground by one arm to show how upset they are. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Lucum has done some extremely good work at his Eskimo blog. The VDC video also shows individual graves, similar in type to the pit were the ghost house children were dumped. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) First, he has located videos of the "burial of more than 80 martyrs as a result of the massacre" on July 1, 2012. These older mass graves are in fact visible on the default Google Earth image. He calculates that at most 40 victims could have been buried in the August 21, 2013 mass grave.
 * 2) He has also found a VDC video uploaded August 21 from the grave site. It shows a book with the names of 149 victims. The names are written on a blank calender or diary for the year 2007. The names start on the page for Saturday, August 21, 2007 and go on for several pages. It does not seem possible, that the people recorded were buried at this site.


 * Interesting page, very cool finds. videos exactly a year apart? I agree on the surface-area-allowed body capacity, 40 sounds reasonable, but including kids, probably 50 could fit. It could also be expanded. And one thing I'm noticing now is how friggin' deep that grave is. I guess they usually try to dig down a way, but this seems super deep. Piling isn't normal, but none of this is. You could get a few layers of 40 each in there. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * And as for the koran pointing the wrong way, as Lucum noted, funny. But the guy is covering his eyes from the dust, and probably they're all just so disoriented by the unknown toxic chemical gas clouds, right? Or are they presiding of anti-Muslims, so doing things backwards? --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Zamalka ghost house

 * ''Main article Zamalka ghost house

Now stated to be in Zamalka, see Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Zamalka ghost house

Hints: The neighborhood looks deserted, most likely because of the near-by front line. The cameramen are warned not to go to the roof because of the danger from snipers. the same house is also discussed in this article, so the videos there may be of some help. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What time is the visit? Where is the sun coming from? Does the stairwell face south, east or west? These are the only three possibilities in the Zamalka grid plan. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Excellent stills. Sun is low and long. I would guess at 3:43 they're looking west (generally WSW in Zamalka) and it's afternoon. 36 hours suggests that. And it usually is. If not, then morning and roughly opposite. I decided to look around a bit, mainly for that prominent large building with two stairwells. I'm guessing I won't find it now. Will sleep in a few. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This (on Google Maps) is the type of building that could explain a PM view. Does that left side curve away on video? This could be it, but no opinion on the foreground. Otherwise, building with those double stairwells are common, motst facing the other way and working better with a morning view. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The two-stairwell building is special for the large number of windows between the stairwells: six. At first I thought this would be on the southwestern edge of Zamalka, looking east, but based on the location of the UMLACA impacts published by HRW, I decided it was most likely on the eastern side, looking west. I have not had time to look or even check you match on Google Earth. There are few good photos on Google Earth looking west – in fact only one and it is awfully dark.
 * The number of impact sites here, could indicate this is the site of a gas rocket attack. It could also indicate this is a contested area, long since abandoned by its inhabitants – a perfect place to plant fake gas attack bodies! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I find this a likely match. There are three rooms (apartments) between the stairwells, each with a window and some kind of balcony. The ghost house would be the 4 1/2 story building 250 meters to the west (both figures exact, here on Google Maps). Both these buildings do not show up in the March 3, 2010 satellite photo, but construction is well under way on May 5, 2011. It is likely that ate least one of the sites would be left unfinished because of the crisis and war. I think I am able to identify three of the higher buildings in between. The west-facing courtyard in front of the ghost house is a good match.
 * Note, that the ghost house has a large cellar, perfect for holding prisoners – although they would need to wall up the windows first. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed, that's a very likely match. Was strolling around a bit and found this one further west but the windows don't really match and I couldn't come up with a plausible place for the ghost house. The two-stairwell building in question has two lines of windows from the one stairway to the end, and three lines of windows from the other one to the end, which it also seems to have on the map (2 north, 3 south). And there seems to be the little roof garden in the proper line close to the ghost house. --CE (talk) 17:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * For some reason my uploaded picture gets messed up, I placed the location on the HRW impact map. But we all know where it is anyway - exactly where it "should be", between two close "impacts" and near a couple of others. The plot thickens. Maybe time to watch the HRW videos. --CE (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Plot thickens... Are you saying this is the time to use theatrical props, like smoke generators, pyrotechnics and sarin dispensers? - ??


 * I checked the vantage point too for the unique rooftop nearby, sloped-roof structure on the near side, greenery on the other. There's a rooftop like that nearest the building. Sun angle makes the sloped roof less clear, but that's it. Red tanks, bright as hell on video, don't seem to appear from space here. No surprise.--Caustic Logic (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Kafr Batna hospital

 * See also /Kafr Batna

The larges collection of victims is seen in the videos from the Kafr Batna Coordinating Committee. The two earliest videos show nighttime outside scenes, with people in panic. The location is a hospital, possibly a temporary field hospital set up in a school or other public building. The large number of victims (100+) indicates that place could in fact be in Zamalka, with its reported 340 victims and not in Kafr Batna.

Photos of the victims on Facebook here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here

Wikimapia shows an Al-Fateh Hospital in Kafr Batna. Rebel videos from September 2012 show a fire at the hospital: FNN Syria Kafar Batna Regime thugs are burning al Fateh hospital 1 9 2012 (2, 3). This is not the place with the CW victims.

Searching images and videos for Kafr Batna + hospital (مستشفى& كفربطنا+مستشفى) did not produce a match. No luck for Zamalka + hospitat on Goolge or YouTube either. There is a hospital or field hospital in Zamalka shown in these two videos, but it does not look like the same place. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Reconstruction
The hospital is separated from a street by a stone-pawed courtyard. Between the courtyard and the street is a fence with ball-topped pillars. Inside the fence is a narrow strip of vegetation behind a low retaining wall. (This video of a similar fence in an unrelated hospital hints that the fence could be facing south.) We see two cars passing on the street from right to left. On the opposite side of the street are some multi-story buildings. Outside the fence grow some tall trees. The daytime view from the window shows the sun shining on the upper floors of the buildings across the street, indicating that the windows are in a northerly direction.

The large brightly lit room or hall used as a morgue is parallel to the street and the courtyard, with a row of large windows facing the courtyard. The entrance to the building is to the right of the hall, with stairs and a ramp on the right side. Behind the ramp is another wing of the building, perpendicular to the main hall, with light shining out of the cellar windows. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's possible maybe to find the spot from that photo, but man... I say the spot is only so important - maybe important, likely not. If we see anything that makes finding it easy, it should be done. Headaches and wasted hours for unsure results on possibly semi-important info - not for me anyway.--Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Found it! It is one block north from where Google Earth places the Kafr Batna spot next to the central roundabout. The building is a 7 story rectangular office building with a 1 story annex in the back. The fence and the courtyard are best seen looking from the north on the 26 June 2009 image. Here on Google Maps. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Now that it's more of an issue with release of Denis O'Brien's investigation, I'm looking at this. There is no June 26, but June 29, 2009 is a good view. I'm getting a slow start though. We're talking the big main building there? What says former municipal? And which basic direction (N,E,W,S) are we looking when we look out that window? He has a room size estimate of 28 by 50 feet. I want to see about putting his diagrams into the footprint, identify and confirm the exterior walkway that he uses to connect the dark and sun morgues into one building, or something along these lines. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:05, 20 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Denis O'Brien quotes me, but he gets it wrong:
 * Furthermore, there is a guy named #Petri #Krohn at the website A Closer Look On Syria (ACLOS) who is a wizard at looking at a place shown in still images and videos and finding the place on Google Earth. In this case Petri has seized upon a view in one of the videos where you can see through a window of the SM to the adjacent buildings, and he has deduced that the morgue is precisely at 33°30'55.24" N 36°22'25.13" E. I’m not sharp enough to follow Petri’s complex geo-location process, and so I can’t confirm or certify his results, but he’s good at this, and so I throw these coordinates out there in case you want to have a look. At the very least Petri’s analysis pinpoints the Kafr Batna neighborhood so you can use Google Earth to have a look around. (Part A, page 13)
 * The coordinates he gives are right in the middle of Zamalka. Maybe this is a stylistic touch; it doesn't really matter where the sun morgue is, could as well be in the middle of nowhere! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:00, 20 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, was wondering about that. I didn't think it mattered, but now it could help check/solidify his spatial mapping. I asked which way the windows face, but I guess it's south and that's the courtyard with diagonal sidewalk. But isn't that the top of a car? Parked on the sidewalk? Help me out - we all don't really understand! --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Petri, because I did not understand your geolocation process, I was very careful not to try and explain it or agree with it when I wrote MITSM. The coordinates I gave I identified as coming from you and I cut/pasted them from your entry on CLOS.  I have just plugged those coordinates back into GE and they resolve w/in half a block from the GE "Kafr Batna" label.  So when you say "The coordinates he gives are right in the middle of Zamalka," you are talking about your own coordinates, and they resolve to the middle of Kafr Batna. In fact, those coordinates resolve to the same bldg that you claim is the Kafr Batna town hall and which you show as, for instance, Kafr_Batna_town_hall_18_November_2006.png
 * In that case I must be wrong. I never properly inserted your numbers into anything, just did a Google search with the wholelot and it took me to Zamalka. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Over here the link give above comes out right on the building with url saying 33.51 N and 36.37 E - Report says 33°30'55.24" N 36°22'25.13" E19. And yeah, that comes out in Zamalka. Huh. "Town Hall" and such is a deduction, I think. Could be, or an apartment building with attached community space. I'm calling it a building in the article. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)


 * So I am just really confused as to first, your process, and second your conclusion. I still don't see how you can start with that view into the glare through the SM window and come up with a location, or even a compass direction. I think with Pope JPII scoring a sainthood today, you should be next in line with a miracle like that.
 * If the sun's coming from the south, a south-facing surface will be most-lit, and visible from a north-facing window. This place has four of those. I still don't exactly follow either how he first got here, but he apparently did, because the exterior mapping is all uncanny. the room fits, 4 windows, etc. I bet if you try harder than I did you'll see just how that first decision makes sense. It only seems like 'wizardry' to the uninitiated. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The building you call the KB town hall at 33°30'55.24" N 36°22'25.13" E is almost certainly not the KB complex I am working with. No way.  The GE shots right up to the latest one does not show a large patio between the front door and the street, and no ramps etc. as shown in vid SM-c.  The streets are not arranged the same.  There is no cul de sac, for instance, as clearly seen in vid 031b, which CL has pointed out.  There is no "back" patio shown in vid Pat-a where a number of victims were. I just do not see how that GE bldg you point to is relevant.  In Part C of MITSM, pg C-3, I note that the English translation of the caption to one of the photographs of the SM was  “A picture taken on 21-8-2013 in ‘TB Hospital’ in Kafarbatna to which hundreds of injured and dozens of martyrs were taken.” [Internal quotes original.]  The photo was found here:  https://www.vdc-sy.info/index.php/en/reports/chemicalmassacrefollowup#.U1wLiFf-lR5   So perhaps we should be looking for a TB hospital and not a town hall. But I agree with you, I don't see that the actual location is vital, unless the location is actually a studio set in Hollywood.  But with a little imagination, I can see how the actual location could eventually become important in piecing the whole Ghouta Massacre together.  For instance, I point out that one victim, M-001, is conspicuously shown in a number of these KB videos and in at least two Zamalka videos.  Knowing where both of these venues were would inform us, for instance, as to whether the guy walked from one to the other. Pierpont (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The ramp doesn't come through, but the cut-away for one does. There's no patio? Why is there supposed to be again? The tile, the darkness, a sound quality? To me vid 32b seems to show another basement room with no light and odd tile is all. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * See last new image below for the ramp cut-away, visible at both ends, I think, and that specific pavement cut-off match. That's good stuff. But seriously, the problem that keeps coming up is that patio. I suppose you decided that, maybe thinking the place is on a slope so one side is basement (split-level as seen) and a backside comes out ground level, left open as a patio. But it's not sure as I see it. No sound or visual signs that he's gone outside here - no tail-lights on the street, new shouting voices from the lot around the corner. It might just be a room after all, and present to no problem. Worth a re-think, I think. --Caustic Logic (talk) 05:27, 28 April 2014 (UTC)



Challenge

 * To Petri's location, a challenge, a confirmation, a counter-challenge, etc. (with bleed-over above)

I'm going to challenge that location now. I've got a lightened version of Denis' SM-c video (031a and 031b here) and the scene mapped out. It tells us little about the shapes of the buildings, just their relation to the courtyard, driveway, surrounding streets. I think what we're looking for (if it's important enough to bother) is one main building with maybe a smaller side one, set near but back from a corner. Tail-lights on the one street can be seen in about these positions, and vehicles pulling in suggests the other street. Mapping out the turns, the camera winds up underground beneath another building I reason must be across the street at surface level. Does that make sense? SM = sun morgue, DM, presuming the connection (seems likely just from this) would be over there. This doesn't seem to match with the buildings in this area, from any angle. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Your map is simply wrong. The windows of the Sun Morgue (SM?) are facing north, towards the street and the fence. See photo File:Kafar Batna girls removed.jpg above. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. – I took some screenshots from Google earth and uploaded them to Category:Aerial images. See this view from the south on 29 June 2009. The view from 18 November 2006 even shows the pillars inside the morgue / meeting hall. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:41, 25 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, man. I'm getting manic over here, and rushed bringing this. I didn't even put it in the right spot, or read the explanation recently at this spot. Thanks for the cleanup, ref images, etc. I have all those already, but haven't reconciled it all one way or the other. First, it's not a map; up isn't north, just forward from the usual view. No (clear) clue at night. Next - you might be right that I have this wrong - I looked again and saw the greenery opposite the main outer wall, with a whole other corner and wall segment in there, but then again twice I was sure this line is at 90-degree like here. I'm going to review in a bit, maybe. But in case I don't get to it today, this note. --Caustic Logic (talk) 09:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I just figured out we're seeing two different corners. That didn't seem possible from the panning. Video 31b first covers the upper span - at 0:18 seeing the wall with lower lights on, the ramp, and victims around there. 0:21, 90 degrees to the gate onto the street. 0:27 another 90 to the driveway. 0:28 another 90 and we're again looking at the start wall, but now it's a different wall, with an inset area and another wall to the right, instead of the fence and gate. I count the four sides of that yellow square of stone paving, and there seem to be exactly four in that full-circle pan. But then ... 90 x3 = 270, doesn't it? So clearly, I'm a bit confused and maybe this will all line up. And there are complex corners, yellow paving, and a fence with a gate all there. I want to see it though, and show the work so everyone can. Sorry it's taking so long. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:40, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I thought I could correlate everything, but the lights swithching (upstairs on, downstairs off) within a few seconds was clearly odd... I've figured out the video scene correctly now, I think, and I'm 97% certain you did get the right place. Awesome! Considering both corners, a turn at 0:26 in the longer video helping to show the stairs run parrallel to the ramp, it correlated like this (now rotated roughly to what you're seeing as north).

It fits the profile of that north lot quite well, with the sun morgue being in the smaller, lower building, and the dark morgue (if that all correlates, as I suspect) in the basement of the office (or apartment, I think) building. I can't make out if there's a ramp on that side, which would be the smoking gun. But the recessed area is explained here, and ... halfway through writing I'll up it to 98% sure, and I never say 100%. Adequate to proceed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 08:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I also noted the lights turned on and off. Made me assume the cellar morgue was under the main wing. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)


 * No, no, no . . . you guys are looking at two completely different buildings. The building w/ the lower lights on is the KB complex.  The building w/ the upper lights on is across the street.  If you can open vids 031 [which I also call SM-c] and 031b at the same time in different instances of your media player and run them side by side for about 30 seconds, you’ll see what I mean.  Even if you follow just 031b – at 00:20 that cameraman is pointing at the KB complex showing the light on in the lower level, then he begins sweeping to his R, and keeps sweeping R until he is shooting the building across the street w/ the upper lights on.Pierpont (talk) 23:20, 26 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Above where I said “No, no, no . . .” what I meant to say was “Yes, yes, yes . . .” My spelling’s not too good.  I believe I can agree w/ CL’s graphic almost completely.  What threw me was the comment about the lights switching within a few seconds, which seemed to me to be saying the same lights were coming on and going off.  I now understand that those upper lights, as seen in the lower right of CL’s graphic, are the SM itself.  Here is a link to a diagram I’ve put together that might be slightly cleaner – don’t know how to embed figures into these comments.   http://www.logophere.com/Ghouta%20Massacre/Images/Outside%20SM%2001.pdf
 * Your new graphic has the right idea, but too set-back. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I still don’t see how Petri’s town hall can match what we see in the videos. One problem is that it we can see from numerous shots that there is very significant amounts of vegetation between the iron fence and the parking area, but the GE shots don’t seem to show any.  Also, Room #3 opens directly onto a recessed patio area that would be visible from the satellite.  I don’t seen that, either.  However, I’ve spent a fair bit of time looking and I can’t find anything else that meets the iron fence in KB.  I think I now understand where Petri is coming from. Pierpont (talk) 06:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Wow, what an amazing effort. One point of disagreement I have with the graphic above is the approach to the main entrance of the SM.  You show stairs leading into the main entrance of the SM and at 90 degrees to the door.  Reviewing Vid031 at 00:21-0030, I don't see any stairs.  It looks like one wheel-chair ramp w/ the white wall, and another steeper ramp that Mr. Minnie is walking on – see at 00:24.  Those ramps are parallel to each other but I don't think they are orthogonal to the SM doorway.  It's hard to judge that angle of the ramps to the doorway from the vids.  It's irrelevant as to my diagrams b/c I don't include any stairs, ramps etc. leading from the street to the SM, but it might be important in identifying the bldg on GE.
 * The effort, middling to high, done quick, part of the general manic action here, which you know about. 0:33 in 031b with headlights ... yep, stairs. And in 031 lightened, you can make out the slightly lighter upper faces as he's walking up - at 0:24 even - so it's not a ramp. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)


 * CL, I'm coming around to your view of steps not ramp, which, of course, makes more sense. (Steep ramp for para-olympics -- very funny.) But I can't get a good lightened view.  And I can't see any steps in the shadow on the wall. I'll yield to your better reasoned view on this.  Still don't see a 90 degree angle into the door.  It's almost up the stairs (!) and  straight in.
 * I might post this view for reference. It's gamma that does it, like brightness and contrast, but with adjustable cut-off line, so you can boost all really dark grays. The steps are in the panorama image on this page, go look. That or striped painted on. 45 degree turn, crossing the porch, then 45 into the door is more like it. I am posting the video next thing. Back with a link. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Another point, which I don't disagree on but just don't know, is the path out of the SM to the DM, marked in red above. I agree with the first turn to the L just outside the SM door, that's obvious.  Because the next section of the vid is in total darkness I put the stairwell to the DM in a straight line along the bearing Mr. Minnie was walking after he took that first L turn.  But you have another turn, one to the R just at the top of the stairs.  How do you get that turn?   When the stairwell light first comes into view at 01:11 it appears in the upper L corner of the screen and moves across the screen from L to R, which would be consistent w/ Mr. Minnie turning to his L at the top of the stairs. So with respect to my Fig. B-1, your version has rotated the DM area by turning the area so the arrow marked "Down" points to the R.  I'm wondering whether the DM part ought not be rotated the opposite direction so that the arrow points to the L.
 * The lightened version helps make two pillars visible after the left. But then ... I 'm not so sure now. Seems he walk back to the one and turns right, but it's so dark I can't tell how far or what else. the camera turns a bit to the left actually, going down when the light in the stairwell emerges. Maybe that's confused and other rotations need to be tried. Thanks for making me take a second look there. --Caustic Logic (talk)


 * Looking at your graphic below, I think it makes my point that Petri's town hall cannot possibly be the KB complex. I mean, you've got the 'patio' right in the middle of the tall building.  The entrance to the SM shown in the videos could not possibly be the same as where you have it in the graphic. The right end of that line you have in purple should be in a cul de sac with buildings all around.  I think we need to find a different GE photo to fit the KB maps to. I do not see one single point of comparison between the GE town hall shots and the KB videos.Pierpont (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I shouldn't have bothered with the DM correlation until I'd seen and understood but ... I still wonder how there's a patio in the basement of any building (?). Mainly it just shows if this is it, the DM dungeon will be under the tall building somehow. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Supporting that end result, however, is the lighting inside, as we can see. The one masement is dark, whereas the dark morgue, ironically, is lit, like the basement of the other building that would be the big one. And look at the lighter yellowish pavement cut-off line - to the middle of the last (right-hand) window. Petri's spot has that. It's got to be this place or one with strikingly similar faetures for a town of this size. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:11, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Next, f*****g awesome, this allows me to finish the scale comparison I started when I didn't know what the hell to do next. In MITSM, Denis estimates the sun mogue, from sized and couted tiles, as about 28 by 50 feet. You can see how that lines up here - almost exact with the part of that building it would fill. The DM mapping I copied into rectangles and made it kind of fit. This was never seriously proportioned, I think, but probably made as close as reasonable. I'm not even sure I got it the right size, just shrunk 'til it seemed close enough for this visualization. Seems pretty likey this all fits under here. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:18, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Does Denis say four windows in the sun morgue? I thought I counted only three. From the outside one can see four windows, but it could be that the last window is cut off by an internal wall. The pillars seen on 18 November 2006 do not seem to fit Denis' diagram. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, four large windows. You thought three? I don't know. He's been over it a lot and had better not be wrong. 4 would fit this spot, of course. Pillars, I don't know that's what that it on the roof. Could be, but they'd be spaced every ten feet if those ran all the way down. You know more about buildings, but I still doubt this is a problem. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)


 * @CL: He's been over it a lot and had better not be wrong.
 * Yes, there are four windows, dude. Everybody keep calm.  I don't believe you will find any view showing all four together. You have to piece it together with the vids and tile lines and bodies.  But the main evidence is that it is easy to see that the wall is divided into 4 sections by 3 half pillars as I show in my diagram below.  Each of the four sections incorporates a compound window. The bottom portion of the window comprises two larger panes bounded by two smaller panes.  Three of the windows can be seen on page 4 of Part B of MITSM.  (See Fig. B-10, Fig-B-15. Also see vid 031 [SM-c].)  The third window can be seen in vid 011a [SM-a] at 01:14 when the gunshots go off and the cameraman flinches.  You have to be quick with your finger on the pause button to catch it. I can’t tell whether the second window from the wall seen in Fig-B-15 and SM-c is meant to tip out at the top or if the frame has been damaged.  As far as the "he had better not be wrong" comment, a better attitude would be "this O'Brien dork might be wrong so I'll check his assertions myself." Pierpont (talk) 00:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Make that: "The FOURTH window can be seen in vid 011a [SM-a]. . ." Pierpont (talk) 02:04, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Denis. That was basically my way of saying I'll side with four, or I'll presume he's not wrong after all that correlating. And "he'd better not be," because I'm banking on it, and man, that would be a basic point to goof up and my general banking system might be thrown into disrepute! But I know tyou invite double-checking and not credulity, and since you provide the stamps, definitely I'll take a moment to verify. After I save this - I don't have all the right videos yet. --Caustic Logic (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Hm, isn't this getting lively? I think actually it's the third window after all at 1:14 in vid SM-a. However, there are four. A graphic could be f/c if it's needed, but I have a jumble for my reference to prove this:

The far left and far right ones are not too hard to keep track of: The dispute will/would be/shouldn't be ) one or two windows between? Two.
 * left (#4) electrical outlet beneath, children's corner - dark mark on lower left corner
 * right (#1) shot out, no clear marks on wall beneath
 * left (#3) panned over at the apparent gunshot noise, mark in lower left corner (no outlet) SM-a 0:19 see the guy laying closest to the wall filling most of the span beneath this window.
 * right #2) leaning out, mark just below the ridow, right of center. SM-a 0:24 a different guy fills this span. M-015's blood line is in this span, at that guy's foot level.



Summary 26 April: Where this stands - I still think we have the basic place, even though no single feature is a dead giveaway and there are some questions. But it's entirely possible I mapped out the turns in the dark wrong, and the underground part should be under the SM building instead. Those who know the videos better will be better placed to say how possible or how certain that is. There's the lighting difference between the buildings I noted (on-off vs. off-on) suggesting the lit basement (room) is in the basement he goes to, where the parts he goes are lit. Clearly this may be a total coincidence. A full reconciliation would be handy, but I've probably spent long enough on it. If it doesn't get more challenged, I'm for naming this the spot and including that in the article (credited to Petri, okay Petri?), which I'm putting together now, about MITSM and its findings. --Caustic Logic (talk)

I re-did the lightened video and watched it again a few times. The dark pushes past the camera's ability - at times, all there is is five random colored pixels and oure black. So it's impossible to map movements clear through and be sure, but ... I call it about 50-60% likely he goes forward a bit, and then left. As shown below, probably more to scale here as well, the three rooms, 'patio' (still unsure on that) and hallway, tucked beneath the sun morgue. No turn would put this area split between the buildings, right? --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:53, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, one more and that's it. No four windows graphic - another hour of work for yet another picture that just says what the text above says? No thanks. But this one seemed worth it. To note> this 2009 view might also show a cut-in to the big building, for the wheelchair ramp. That cut-in might be seen at its other end, the ramp's upper end, in the panorama right above that. That's, like, half a smoking gun. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:02, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

For reference:
 * SM-c (vid 031) lightened - it says when processed that will be here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCLczphZyyo
 * Denis' diagrams based on interior video analysis. I haven't confirmed his linking of other morgue videos together, but presume it's good. As noted, these are not drawn to scale. The measurements I used for the SM yellow rectangle above are from the text (part B, page 5 - this figure is on page 4) --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:00, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Sightlines from the SM window: In trying to get on board with the idea that Petri’s building is the KB complex, I’ve gone back to his starting point, which I believe was the image way up above looking out of Window #1 of the SunMorgue, and I have analyzed the b’geesus out of it. I think there’s something here for everyone -- beliebers and non-beliebers. Forgive me if you’ve already gone through this exercise.

In order to get the large images I need to make the points, I have produced a pdf of four images. It can be opened here: http://www.logophere.com/Ghouta%20Massacre/Apr28%20on%20Petri%20Bldg.pdf

Fig.1 is part of Petri's starting point image blown up and with some sighting lines added. I’ll come back to the lines. The glare is too intense to see the sky well, but you can see some blue and clouds in the upper R corner and just a bit in the upper L corner. The vegetation that can be seen is sparse – a couple scrawny trees and a bush or tree through which the sky can be seen.

More important is the fence, clearly visible in the glare. The fence has wrought iron sections separated by white columns. The white columns have white glass (?) globes on top of them. From the night time videos and GE it’s easy to see that there is a gate to the L of what can be seen out the window. That gate has two pillars w/ globes. Moving to the east, the next globe/pillar combo I’ve marked “G1,” and the next two I’ve marked “G2" and “G3.”

Look closely at G1 and you’ll see that it is an odd-ball. The globe is displaced to the R (east) on the post, almost to the edge. The other globes are centered on their posts. Figs 2 & 3 show the same fence pillars/globes during the dark of the morning prior to when Fig. 1 was taken. In Fig 2 the displaced globe, G1, is clearly seen. Between the two night time vids, all of the globes can be seen, and it is the only one biased to the R, so it serves as a reference.

The other night time video, Fig 3, is not as clear, but odd-ball G2 can still be seen. More important, the guy in the blue shirt is standing on the line that demarcates the asphalt and sidewalk. That line has already been used by CL to line up SM Window #1, as seen immediately above. That asphalt line runs from the west end of Window #1 to just to the right (east) of G1.

This can be seen in Fig. 4, which is a GE shot of Petri’s bldg almost exactly a year prior to the Ghouta Massacre. The point that it’s almost exactly a year later means that one would expect the vegetation to be in the same state. But the amazing thing about the satellite shot is that you can actually see the freakin’ globes on that fence. You can’t see the wrought iron, of course, but you can see the globes. This in itself is pretty strong evidence that we’re looking at the same place in the videos and the GE shots. But there is a discrepancy.

The red line in Fig 4. is the asphalt line – and it goes just to the east of G1, as noted above. It’s sort of a baseline or reference line because it’s determined by the asphalt. The yellow line is extended from the same point the red line hits window to directly over G2 and the blue line directly over G3. Extending those lines across the street indicates what we ought to be seeing when we look out Window #1 of the SM, which brings us back to Fig. 1. I have added the three lines to the photo of the view out the window, the red line passing to the right of G1, the yellow and blue passing over G2 and G3, respectively. What we see between the red and the blue line should be what is between the red and blue line in Fig. 4. But I’m not convinced it is. To my eye, the vegetation across the street looks much too sparse in Fig. 1. Pierpont (talk) 05:53, 29 April 2014 (UTC)


 * There are two trunks of high trees in Fig. 1 whose tops we don't see. But we see them on the satellite view. I think it fits good enough, given the other features - and the fence with the globes is certainly quite a significant match. --CE (talk) 11:25, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Ain Tarma
Initial reports put this district next to Jobar amongst those hit with chemicals. But the consnsus now is no Sarin rockets landed there, and no winds should drift anything there from the accepted impacts in Zamalka. So ... what id happen there? (and in the other such places, several of them?) --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

VDC report (props to Pierpont) on the account of a paramedic named Sakhr (possibly also "Dr. Sakhr" with a "clinic" in Kafr Batna) He tells them
 * "At two o'clock after midnight, the regime's forces shelled the area with mortars, specifically the first parts of Qusour neighborhood in the Ein Tarma behind the cemetery. During this time, a gas with a rotten smell spread quickly resulting in symptoms such as nausea, shortness of breath and difficulty in vision that turned into a complete lack of vision. Some people fainted, became fully paralyzed and suffered a severe head ache. We hurried to help them; I helped nearly 370 person-to-several medical points including Hamourieh, Irbeen, Sakba and Kafarbatna and Douma. "

The cemetery in Ain Tarma is here on Wikimapia labeled "مقابر عين ترما نسال لهم الفاتحة" (mqabr 'eyn trma nsal lhm alfathh or Tombs of Ein Tarma ask them Fatiha) - a nine months old comment (props to CE) says "Tunnel Entrances to bunkers and secret chemical weapons facilities." Hm. Whose secret underground CW facility in rebel-held Ain Tarma? (unsupported claim but interesting, obviously) --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Ain Tarma victims: The VDC records some interesting victims of some chemical - 25 victims from Ain Tarma ("area" usually means from) - 20 from elsewhere (usually) with "martyrdom location" Ain Tarma (the Hazroumeh family fared poorly there).

Among those listed by area ("from"), some victims have the note "Buried in a cemetery in Ain Tarma Hodeidah" (the same one by the alleged CW tunnel? If so it goes by different names) 13 total, 9 unidentified. CM 6 (one might be a girl) AM 5 AF 1 CF 1. These last tend to have photos - horrible ones, with bloody mucous, or once a reptured face trying to get it out. (My guess: whatever causes bronchorrhea, a big dose, aggravated by prior dehydration). One man has photos of two men attached. Two men at least are elderly. --Caustic Logic (talk) 03:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Saqba schoolyard bodies
A number of bodies are shown in nighttime shots placed on the pavement of what seems to be a school yard. The same scene is seen in daytime on this video of an agitated Salafist making a speech. There is graffiti on the school walls that has been painted over. The school gate is seen on the video as is some of the surroundings, including an electricity pole right outside the gate.

I have named the set of photos as Douma victims, as one further nighttime photo with a Douma logo has similar appearance with specs of dirt on lens. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Good start in getting all this set to one location and positing Douma. IF this was pretty sure Douma, would help, but even then that's a big town. And we have some visuals, but too many rotations possible. No clear sunlight angles here. Seems very cloudy, or else before full sunrise. Until you can be sure what direction that power pole and big tree are in, it's a cluster of headaches to look for all possible fits. Yet another I'll be sitting out for now. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Syrian schools are quote easy to spot on the map, all have similar prefabricated architecture. I do not think there are too many in Douma. P.S. Found one in Ein Tarma that could be the place. P.P.S. The Ein Tarma school has similar design, but the wing lining the street is only one story, as the school on the video is two story. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Found it! It is in southern Saqba, opposite this telephone exchange on Wikimapia, here on Google maps. The video camera and the school gate is facing north-northeast. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:10, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Video from the Saqba site by HRW's activist contact SaqbaRevo0:
 * غوطة الشرقية 21-8-2013 مجزرة وعشرات الشهداء والمصابين بقصف زملكا وعين ترما بالكيماوي 2 ( Eastern Ghouta 21/08/2013 massacre of tens of martyrs and injured pounding Zamalka and Ain Tarma chemotherapy part 2)
 * الغوطة الشرقية 21-8-2013 شهداء ومصابين نتيجة قصف النظام السوري بالسلاح الكيماوي جـ6 (East Gouta 08/21/2013 martyrs and injured as a result of the bombing of the Syrian regime's chemical weapons – Part 6)
 * part 7

Erbin hospital

 * ''Moved to Talk:Alleged Chemical Attack, August 21, 2013/Locations/Erbin


 * Morgue with ice
 * Moved images from section below.

This is in Irbeen, I decided when collecting photos, though I'm not sure how I triangulated that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the photos match the NBC video from Erbin hospital. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Hammuriyah
This video by Jobar Revo claims to show victims in Hammourieh. The bodies are placed in a pool, possibly in a courtyard of a mosque. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Morgue sites
Here are some videos showing distinct morgue sites:
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF07XRSwTbQ
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ikSDwo5lhg
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LzKqgpk_TA
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRzLOWPXFQE
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKJgPk1gfk8 – Children brought in on pickup truck.
 * Collection of photos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNFP31HRaP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_Ju6742Z0

Unidentified photos
Video

Moadimiyah
Syrian activist describes chemical attack

As best I can tell listening he says 'West of Damascus' and somthing like 'Moadimiyah' so I'm assuming it is Moadimiyah.

The video includes footage I assume of him between 00:20 and 00:30 ish. Of interest is his graphic description of his symptoms that are not in the least like Sarin symptoms and the close-up of his face showing no obvious pinpoint pupils. --Charles Wood (talk) 02:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)