Category talk:Ukraine

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Heading to Disaster?
Sadovyi warns that if new Rada will not quickly show that it can achieve progress, there may be further unrest, "This Parliament has very little time, so that people do not revolt".

Given dire economic situation, armed battalions not controlled by Government, messianic attitudes on part of some of the aspiring leadership, and recent history of revolts, such a scenario is not totally unthinkable--Resup (talk) 15:20, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Tsarev, (Rada ex-deputy, presumably still keeping some inside connections) warns that Poroshenko may be overthrown as early as this February, possibly as a follow-up to planned Maidan commemorations, blamed for military and economic failures. (ridus.ru) (translated at fortruss). Yatseniuk, Turchinov are viewed as a possibility for takeover. That will likely keep hostilities from winding down. Poroshenko urgently returned from overseas trip. In the meantime and quite handily, Yarosh is wounded, and Turchinov shot at, apparently trying to heroically reverse the fortunes at the obliterated airport (or doing something equally legendary). While Yatseniuk had to stay in Kiev, as somebody was needed to blame Russia. --Resup (talk) 14:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Human Rights Suspended
14-15.11.14 This Poroshenko decree, effective immediately looks like introducing emergency/military rule? It's a bit vague to be sure

7) Foreign Affairs of Ukraine:

1) together with the Ministry of Justice of Ukraine:

a) ensure in accordance with Article 15 of the European Convention on Human Rights within a week: a declaration on behalf of Ukraine addressed to the Secretary General of Europe on adoption of measures deviating  from  obligations of Ukraine by the European Convention on Human Rights; on certain territories in the area of counter-terrorist operation in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions because of a public danger threatening the life of the nation,

inform the Secretary General on the measures taken and Ukraine reasons for their use;

b) periodically, but at least once a month, inform the Secretary General on the status of the security situation in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions;

2) to inform the international community, influential foreign policy, government, business and cultural circles, as well as foreign media about the reasons for the withdrawal of Ukraine under Article 15 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms from the obligations of this Convention and on measures adopted by Ukraine to overcome the complex security situation in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions.

They also placed military on high readiness; Novorossia is not clear whether it is taken for defense or offence
 * RT report--Resup (talk) 01:14, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "Kiev has suspended the protection of human rights and ordered the withdrawal of its institutions from areas controlled by local militia in the nation's east. Rebels have branded the decree, which hits the population on winter’s eve, an ‘act of genocide.'The move was prepared by the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council last week and enacted by a presidential decree signed on Friday. It has yet to be ratified by the newly-elected parliament, but the decree explicitly says that this procedure must be expedited – so there is little doubt that the new governing coalition will adopt it next week".--Resup (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Prisoners from ATO area prisons are to be moved, lower grades given amnesty (so they don't have to feed them,also may be persuaded to join up); no pensions etc being paid, used to offset gas and electricity supplied to Donbass. Seeing republics fed the prisons when they were without food for 2 months, some prisoners may decide to stay? But withdrawing from Human Rights Convention is open statement they are intending to break it,and hoping that somehow gets them off the hook for war Crimes. NAF ready to fight back,so far winning,and if they try something really atrocious Russia will really lose her patience. KatKan (talk) 05:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Yatseniuk, cabinet of ministers introduced emergency rule in Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Headquarters consisting or MOI, MOD, SBU representatives can issue mandatory orders, like curfew, passes, no meetings, parties, no wrong mass media, weapons control, duty to provide housing to soldiers, property may be seized ('in the interest of public order'), draft duty, etc. (As some point out  (Alexey Koriakin, speaker of LPR People's Soviet),  on top of being conflict-related, may be an attempt to justify past crimes)   --Resup (talk) 21:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Economy
With whatever happens internally in Ukraine, its exports are about 4.3 bln USD per months; 1/3 of that is iron and related, and so is linked to Donbas and Russian exports. If 1/2 of iron export is lost as a result (as a very crude estimate), it will cost them about 708 mln USD per month. But luckily, now EU is picking Ukraine gas bill, and November prepayment is 760 mln USD. This sort of balance each other. (They also have to deal with humanitarian issues. Since Ukraine debt is some 137 bln already, they may use any spare change to pay it off ). But any new lending to Ukraine may be diverted to further enrich the oligarchs or to support war, so a great deal of caution needed.
 * The same structures are doing lending now as those behind disastrous shock therapy in Russia by Egor Gaidar government. Egor Gaidar had academic background with expertise in Chile (Pinochet reforms), and was supported by US economist (Chicago school/monetarists, I guess). Russia survived because of oil/gas. Service sector and construction are doing OK-ish. Manufacturing which survived is mostly to re-assemble Western toys (cars, etc). Critics suggest that they should have tried Swedish/Nordic capitalism, not Pinochet. (As one man said: "they are so clever, just as my wife, ---later"). (I am afraid that joke may not immediately apply to IMF, though) --Resup (talk) 17:45, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Novorossia Future?
Things are very difficult, on the ground, but dreamers imagine how technological innovation, science, education can be developed in Novorossia (and how such positive developments can be financed, I guess). So far, two articles on rusvesna.su/future, one on innovation (like the sky is the limit;-- I think this article was translated on fortruss ), another on education (like distance learning, integrating with Russia issues and such). Nothing really solid, but it is easier to be skeptical than correct here. I think that all of that is possible, there are lots of highly educated people, and lots of dreamers, not just military enthusiasts seen so far; but innovations need funding, which is not there, because it is somewhere else, like bubbling some stock markets (or bubbling some else of comparable utility). --Resup (talk) 18:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Donetsk University stays put in Donetsk, denies moves anywhere, criticizes attempts to resettle it in (Poroshenko bastion) Vinnitsa. --Resup (talk) 14:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Lots of interesting stuff on diverse topics shows rusvesna.su/future, from 'giant military robots parade' to fundamental science news. Unable to rebroadcast or translate everything. Hope there are English versions somewhere (maybe there, or elsewhere) --Resup (talk) 14:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Heating
They are basically sitting on a big pile of coal, with a lot of infrastructure broken. That infrastructure may be old Soviet one, central heating stations, not coal-burning, with heat transferred by hot water pipes. And wood burning stoves in villages--that can handle coal alright. Anything more modern, like natural gas based in-house heaters, will likely only work if can be fed from gas storage cylinders/liquid propane, not just from natural gas main line. Many heaters in the west are dual, but over there, it is likely either or. Electric heating will work fine ( if there is electricity of course), but it is more costly and typically is designed for less heat (per unit). Electric heaters can run from gasoline-powered generator, and those should be in stock in humanitarian /emergency services (noisy, not too efficient, but would do it for a while) --Resup (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine Future?
No pronouncement to make; this opinion piece in the New York Times noted. --Resup (talk) 18:25, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

International Matters
Russia raises some major international law, human rights issues. --Resup (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

... and Russia-NATO cooperation call...(if they are needed for cooperation purpose, that is...)(as a side note, some sharks actually do some good to the oceans...if not too many of them are too bad, that is...) --Resup (talk) 16:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The thing is (it appears) that weapons are too powerful to be good for fitness, ---but there is nothing out there replacing them, and so it gets thoroughly messed-up on every possible level... --Resup (talk) 17:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Joining EU Right Away
Poroshenko is now saying the EU agreement will come into full force in November despite agreement with Russia to delay some of it for a year. He is either talking through his hat or he's seriously looking for big trouble. Maybe EU will have the sense to stop it, after all they really DO need their gas for the winter. This man is a menace. EU/IMF is already having to pay his gas bills, it will cost further trillions he doesn't have to get industry up to EU standards before they'll buy anything from him, so he wants to kill his small remaining Russian market??? what does he think people will live on? does he think they'll pay taxes to repay those loans if they have no work? is he planning to finance the whole country from the sale of his chocolate empire which so far nobody wants to buy? KatKan (talk) 19:20, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * But it is reported that EU delayed the implementation till the end of 2015. While Russia has market protection measures similarly enacted but delayed. It is unclear what Poroshenko is talking about, seems that such option is not really there, and so it may be an election gimmick. My impression is that media coverage in Ukraine is in such shape that Poroshenko would come out as among the most reasonable men of the land; if there are more reasonable voices, they are not easy to hear.  (Or maybe somebody,   Yatseniuk-type, still believe that EU and NATO is like a big Santa Claus) .  Also (as Russians notes as well), it is quite similar to Yanukovich endgame:   there is a built-up of expectations (finally, that wonderful EU), and rhetoric (those bad Russian terrorists); so if he tries now to put a break, especially prior to elections, he may fly head first through the windshield (they put some guys in the waste bins already, and who knows where this stops; they exercise this, and worst, on social networks, quite massively ) --Resup (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Маартен Ван Вейк (Maarten Van Wake?), Netherlands: for Western Europeans, all that war in Ukraine is infinitely far away --like Iraq, Syria, Libya---and the Ukraine itself, actually. Yes, terrible, but it's somewhere else, and we don't really care. In another article: most in EU currently do not feel Ukraine joining EU is particularly good news (on practical/economic side of things). -(That's right, once it is not lifting your boat, most people would not really care) --Resup (talk) 12:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * EU has lost heaps on the revenge sanctions. People are starting to use non MSM media. In Germany viewing of MSM sites is down a measurable amount (I lost the actual figure) and there are pro-Novorossiya protests. Every country is protesting about the money they lost. Now they have to find more? to help Poroshenko? who can't pay his gas bills but wants to spend on destroying half his country? and expect EU to "lend" him to fix it? somehow I don't think they'll be in any great hurry.Oh and he's planning to murder 2 million of his own citizens before the end of the month, too. No European country has done that since the War. KatKan (talk) 06:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * What's being lost by German MSM seems to be rank, and here is the list (ranks in Germany) but not so much  page traffic. But it may be just transition from print journals to googles and facebooks ilk, not reflecting non-mainstream brains becoming of a relevance. (Somehow, I wish that what we try to do is not a waste of time; otherwise why to do it) --Resup (talk) 07:38, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine
Some strange new and increased taxes, and seems to be a ban on cash transactions over a certain amount (don't know how they'll enforce that). Looks like everything will cost more, at a time the economy is dying [ http://novorossia.today/publications/world/economics/ukrainian-authorities-have-prepared-new-.html already.] Meanwhile, one single source claims to have sketches for a new Novorossyia currency, quite a nice looking money but I don't like their chances of being able to introduce their own.KatKan (talk) 14:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * seems to be a misprint, one day of war costs about 80 mln (not bln) UAH, which is about $ 6 mln/ day. Ukraine economy appears to be in bad shape, they have to import things (energy from Russia, quality consumer goods from the West), but apart from some chocolate, it appears they can only export to the East, where relations have seriously worsened. So they may have to be supported financially by the West to stay afloat, and satisfy whatever conditions attached to that. --Resup (talk) 12:57, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about it, but probably they have some concerns or mistrust of UA Hryvna, there may be some taxes, limitations, conversion fees, sanctions, or other difficulties operating in Hryvna. Even more so in Western currencies; and NR leadership may be under sanctions already. Adopting ruble may be problematic politically. In case of Kosovo, I believe they use euro, not the  Serbian Dinar; -but Novorossia cannot use the euro, and there is no obvious other thing to use --Resup (talk) 12:57, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hryvna was about 8 to the $ earlier this year now it's around 15, so fast becoming worthless. People in NR don' have any, anyway. The banks are bombed, pensions not paid etc. If they make their own money a least they can pay pensions and wages in it, then people can use that to buy local goods (food mostly).  This does not help pay power and gas bills, nor the taxes Kiev would still expect to get. Local banks, once reopened, would have to be prepared to handle the new money. It's complicated. KatKan (talk) 14:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Coal. Ukraine is reluctant to bring coal from separatist areas or Russia, prefers to bring it from far away places (South Africa, Australia) at a higher cost.

As of 24 September, Ukraine "will buy coal from Russia" (coal is claimed to be at least partially Ukrainian in quoted article)."Ukraine signed contracts to deliver 5.6 million tons of coal till the end of the year (from Russia). According to Energy-and-coal Ministry, Ukrainian power stations are running seriously short on coal of type A ( anthracite) and T (low content), which are used at 1/2 of all power stations".

"What happened in the last three months? Located in the Donbas coal mines produce 80% of Ukrainian coal". Directly in separatist area - "exactly half". "Mining there dropped dramatically. Mine closed in the best case, worst - flooded, and because of what will never resume operations. According to the State Statistics Service, during 8 months of this year, Ukraine produced 35.2 million tons of coal, 85.8 % of 2013. However, by August this dropped to 40%. In 2013, 82 million tons of coal were mined, 70% for energy, the rest is coking coal". By the fall of coal will simply not be produced. In addition, there are large logistical problems - black gold have nothing to be transported from production to power stations where it is burned, turning into heat and electricity for the population. This provides 40% of the needs of the country".

"The first person to speak about what is necessary not just to import, but also from Russia - was the company "DTEK" of Rinat Akhmetov. According to the head of the Independent Trade Union of Miners of Ukraine Mikhail Volynets, this company decided to bring 600 thousand tons of coal from Russia. But in the case of Minister Prodan, the desire to have to sell coal imported from Russia looks much more ambiguous. After all, if the origin of coal for "DTEK" we can be sure - the company owns in the Rostov region several coal companies. But whose exactly coal the Government is planning to import -   - this is a  big question". --Resup (talk) 04:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 23.11.14 update Tass (English), also coking coal update Tass (English)  --Resup (talk) 06:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

4.12 Electricity supply disruption, potentially not short term, related to an event at Zaporozhskaia Nuclear Power Station. Exact nature of event is not explained, but said to be not too bad; still potentially long-term; may have to do with change to US fuel, there are compatibility issues. Something simple, like blown transformer or grid overload, not excluded, no clear explanation still. rusvesna --Resup (talk) 00:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ukraine paid and received requested Russian nuc fuel (Tass) . It is suggested by Ukraine that  block 3 will be back to functioning soon ('by the end of the day') --Resup (talk) 19:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, it was only a voltage regulator that blews/ Maybe the have to cannibalise one from somewhere to replace it. No big deal,not a nuclear accident.KatKan (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, said to be functioning again.--Resup (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Conflicting radiation information: according to Novorossia's Pushilin "14 times greater than acceptable" Interfax report "not confirmed from other sources'; but  according to official Ukrainian press release (which had  to do with another off line event, at block 6, which is now back), it is at natural background level of 8-12 micro Rontgen/hr (0.1 micro sievert/hr) . Pushilin is not there and not an expert, so this requires verification. If somebody walks there with Geiger counter, conversion is tricky (as it needs calibration; and also may pick photons with energies below harmful). For example recently there are reports from USA suggesting Geiger counts per minute results which appear  to be some 10-30 above normal radiation levels; those results seem to be coming from amateurs with Geiger counters. --Resup (talk) 07:36, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
 * More reports on radiation: now it is claimed that Ukrainian report is leaked, showing radiation at 16 times the acceptable of  4.90 micro Sievert /year. Clearly mistake or misprint, very low per year, should be  4.90 micro Sievert /hour to be at 16 times acceptable level. That raises a  question on what sort of person  prepared this leaked document. --Resup (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As it turns out, wrong translation by Life News: Ukrainian год. is NOT Russian год (=year), as Life News are telling us (and I believed), but an abbreviation of година (Ukrainian) = час (Russian) = hour(English). So, in the report radiation level is 4.90 micro Sievert /HOUR. 16 times acceptable level makes sense than. Ukraine says it was falsified. But another official report gives elevated numbers, which are said to be "within the norm" (hmm...). Discussion forum where links were noticed. Also a bit here. --Resup (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

5.12 Moskal: "To date,  "Lisichansk Coal" and "Pervomaysk Coal" companies have stockpiles of 122 thousand tons of coal, on the territory controlled by Ukraine"   - said the head of Luhansk Regional State Administration Moskal. - But it just sits there as dead weight, because Donetsk Railway (with its central office, despite the NSDC (СНБОУ) and the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine decisions, still remaining in the occupied Donetsk), has no cars for shipment of coal to power plants. There is a paradoxical situation - coal bought up in South Africa, imported to Ukraine and reaches power plants, but what is produced in the Lugansk region in the Ukraine controlled territory can not be sent to power plants due to lack of cars and diesel locomotives. What kind of savings can we than talk about? " --Resup (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I knew I like this guy. Sensible, pragmatic, no political rubbish. Really they cold just put it on a couple of trucks and turn them around six times a day,it's not far. So, head of railways is next to be fired, for not movin the trans iut as ordered. He's probably a aeparatist. But Ukraine didn't have to wait to Dec 1 to get some coal. But he seems to be saying there are no coal cars in Donetsk? possible, they are probably on a delivery run to Crimea. the REAL story is they probably lustrated the guy that knew where to get coal from internally,how would Yatsenuk know where the mines are? so turns out to be just total incompetence. Figgers. Hey maybe they are just getting people used to the idea of blackouts?  KatKan (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

6.12 Russian coal deliveries restored, 50 thousand tons are on their way from Russia to Ukraine (TASS)--Resup (talk) 22:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

17.12 Ukraine Trade Unions boss Mikhail Volynets. Coal is not transported from coalmines of Dopropolskoe group-Selidovo, Krasnoarmeisk, Lisichansk (Селидово, Красноармейск, Лисичанск ). This is our territory, but the coal is not delivered from there. 500 wagons sit still at marshaling station in Debaltsevo. They were uploaded four months ago with anthracite". Well, could use those 500 wagons.--Resup (talk) 01:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

29.12 Ukraine ready to buy coal from Donbas - Poroshenko--Resup (talk) 15:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

"Russia has every reason to demand early repayment of Ukraine's $3 billion debt" - Siluanov "But no decision has been made yet". Loan is said to have strong safeguards build in and breaking it may cause trouble. --Resup (talk) 02:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems to me just Putin pointing out they don't hold all the cards, ahead of German French Ukrainian Russian peace talks on Jan 15. If they default on t5his, another 14 or so billion goes with it, = about 18 bill IMF or Germany would have to find to save them from it. Hehehe. KatKan (talk) 10:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * From commercial loans perspective, Ukraine is close to default, so commercial loan route is almost gone. (Ukraine bonds currently trade at 60 cents to a dollar discount. Credit default swaps indicate 75% default risk in 5 years (Bloomberg)). If the West intends to keep "stealing Ukraine", it will have to find ALL the moneys from somewhere. Likely nobody knows the exact amount, but Soros wants 50 bln for a start. 18 bln is likely one of those 'kicking the can down the road' options. --Resup (talk) 17:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Soros article, showing where to take those 50 bln from. Otherwise, light on detail, e.g. why 50 bln are needed. Maybe its the figure which will have private investors reappearing, but does not appear to be linked with   the real economy (as opposed to bond and other financials markets). The only real-world proposal I see is radically reducing size of the government; but they do it for free already using the garbage bin method (aka lustration). Some passages call into question does he have an idea what is going on the ground in Donbas. Or maybe it does not actually matter what's really going on, in this 'quantitative easing for Ukraine'- type plan. (He is in Kiev at the moment, actually). --But the plan is still better than shelling cities (no mentioning of that, but hopefully part of the plan) --Resup (talk) 03:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Ukraine, China agree to start implementing $2.4bln currency swap. If reported accurately, this is likely to lock exchange rate and protect hryvna from falling --Resup (talk) 17:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

IMF cannot give money at present escalated stage of he conflict- Christine Lagarde. In their assumptions built since April for Ukraine, the IMF experts had forecast a resolution of the conflict in the fall. "Today, these assumptions are invalid, notes Ms. Lagarde. We are working on new assumptions, with a four-year extension of the period during which Ukraine could make reforms and with funding probably a little higher than what was expected. But this assumes that the situation stabilizes - this is a priority. No IMF partner can consider participating in a support program if there is a question mark about 20% of the gross domestic product of Ukraine. The link between the economic situation and the military situation is obvious. "
 * While Soros and Levy still want Europe to find money. (Experiment in participating democracy, huh? But a failing experiment, is it not? How about an experiment with some participating democracy in the West--as there is none at the moment? Also spending some money to fix it up a bit? ) --Resup (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Novorossia
Disabled war veterans receive benefits in accordance with the disability group from 1125 to 2250 Hryvna, compensation payment for a disabled child will be 1,200 Hryvna per month, payment to a survivor of a breadwinner will be Hryvna 900 per child and 1800 by a total of two or more children | Press Center DPR --Resup (talk) 14:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

DPR opens free canteens. Food is coming from humanitarian aid. --Resup (talk) 19:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Warfare Impact on Economy
Many/most mines are out of production in Donbas.

31.10. Kramatorsk: metal work plant fuel storage on fire.--Resup (talk) 22:05, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Elections
OSCE will send up to 1000 observers for the Ukraine elections on October 25. Going on recent comments about Ukrainian laws not applying to them, NR area people may not want to take part in this. This would be a huge mistake... while they are legally p[art of Ukraine they MUST make their voice heard in electing a President. Otherwise they have only themselves to blame if Poroshenko wins, or worse, someone worse than him wins. There is also danger that Pravy Sector idiots get elected locally if they are not opposed...then get to be the masters of "militia"" being allowed in the region under the Special plans. KatKan (talk) 16:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * May be a hard sell: even Party of Regions (ex-President of Ukraine Yanukovich party, (ex) popular in eastern Ukraine, is reported an intention to boycott elections Our party will not take part in the upcoming elections because a fourth of the country or almost 7 million electors will not be able to vote,” Kolesnikov said. While Igor Strelkov in a recent interview (from Moscow) went even further stating he does not believe in elections as such (this is on the extreme end of the spectrum, but militia folks may share such feelings to some degree). Maybe than somebody has to make a case on elections and why to participate in those directly to the rebels, don't think they would bother reading us... --Resup (talk) 16:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Those are supposed to be parliamentary, not presidential elections. Coup with appointments at gunpoint -> Unconstitutional change of Constitution -> Presidential election (months later) -> Prime minister resigns -> Prime minister isn't allowed to resign -> President dismisses parliament -> Parliamentary elections. This is a complete farce and can IMHO only be solved with working out a constitution with all parties involved, have a referendum on that and then start new from there. Pretty much the February 20 (or was it 21) deal between Yanukovic, the Boxer, Yats and the Nazi, and Germany, France and Poland. --CE (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It is reported (eg Wikipedia)  that there is nowadays some "Poroshenko block" party (with Klichko-the-boxer's Udar now part of it,) and that this block has 45% of the vote in latest opinion poll. The rest of the pack are on the margins, with Radical Party of Lyashko,   the "no sponsors, oligarchs or deputies" party next at 13%  (I think that's the same guy who reported on a German crematorium in the  ATO zone) --Resup (talk) 17:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The crematorium is real. There are several of them in fact. They belong to the department that rounds up and destroys stray animals. It is not impossible some hospital has one for dealing with amputated limbs and contaminated materials (rather than having them dumped in a forest somewhere). Anyway why don't they use this for their campaign? demand the truth and provide evidence, of how many soldiers actually DID die? let the nation decide on FACTS who did right? I do not believe total 3000 dead, there's more than 400 from Transcarpathia alone... which nobody even knows has been dragged in to fight. KatKan (talk) 18:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Plotniskii, Purgin: no elections to Rada in Novorossia; will have own elections, sometime from November to the end of the year --Resup (talk) 18:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've seen October, November and December dates for this... from the "Group". If it's to be NR elections, they themselves should set the date perhaps, and insist OSCE etc go along with their choice. And they need their currency printed ready to go, by then, tho' I can't imagine how you'd go about giving new money to people. Still, there IS the danger that others WILL stand for and get elected to seats that should be NR seats, and then insist they have a right to them ("lawfully democratically elected"). They'd need the international overseers to make sure this doesn't happen, if they don't want to participate. KatKan (talk) 18:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Mystery solved. October 26 is Ukrainian elections for the Rada. December 7 is Kiev's planned election day for Donbass. But Novorossia is planning THEIR elections for November 2, currently drawing up their electoral laws. Meanwhile it seems refugees from Donbass will be disenfranchised from the October elections eve if they wish to vote (which civilian refugees might want to). An electoral official told [ http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/124062 OSCE]  "... those from Crimea would merely have to produce a national ID card, whilst those from Donbas would in addition have to prove they currently reside in the region. The voting rights of IDPs from Crimea are addressed under Ukrainian legislation, whilst those of IDPs from the Donetsk and Luhansk regions are not yet defined by law." Also nobody yet has clarified if "Donetsk and Luhansk" apply to those cities only, to all NR held territory, or to those two whole oblasts. KatKan (talk) 03:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

According to OSCE the Ukrainian government is planning to set up- voting facilities in Russian refugee camp, so Ukrainians there can vote. This will be interesting, as it makes it harder to disenfranchise former Donbass residents, some of whom may not prefer Donbass to become Novorossiya. On the other hand, it allows "refugees" to vote for the D and L oblasts, people the NR don't want, and Kiev to then claim these are the official legal representatives. So it's getting messier every day. KatKan (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ukraine elections and Novorossia elections are on different days, and (presumably) based on different candidates, or parties, lists. There needs to be a rule on who can vote and normally some voters lists. All of that needs to be prepared and printed in advance. Unclear what will be on offer for the refugees to vote for (both votes? Only one?). Also, they are located throughout Russia, not just in a few centers; and majority of them  do not have   refugee status officially, unclear whether all of them can vote. In Russia there used to be "propiska' 'прописка', which is now officially not there, but it is replaced by  registration  by place of residence which, IMHO, is the same. While in Ukraine, there is   no "propiska". Russian wikipedia says: Legally "propiska' was canceled ... by the adoption of the Law of Ukraine of 11.12.2003 № 1382-IV «On freedom of movement and free choice of place of residence in Ukraine." This law introduced  'walk-in' registration by place of residence instead of  "propiska":  for registration it is sufficient to present citizen's written declaration,  passport, the receipt of payment of the state fee, two copies of the coupon of withdrawal from registration (but that may be impossible for a refugee); registration authorities have no right to refuse to register. So, out of some 2 millions of Ukrainians in Russia, with around 870 K from affected areas, it is unclear who can vote for what (and for Novorossia vote, who is Novorossia citizens? If this is a 'new Russian world', can any Russian, --say currently residing in Antarktida, in a diaspora, or not having a 'propiska', vote? ). --Resup (talk) 12:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * On 25 September, DNR election committee head Roman Liagin (Роман Лягин ) gave some answers about 2 November elections in DNR. Answers are not provided there, so the only info is the name of the election committee head, and election date. --Resup (talk) 13:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Gubarev standing in iev election?
"n order to stop all the speculations around the recent messages, I would like to explain: Novorossia Party members ARE GOING TO PARTICIPATE in the parliamentary elections within the Free Donbass block. This block has already been registered by DPR Central Election Committee. We hope that Pavel will recover from the injury soon, and will continue our joint struggle, and meanwhile the Political Council of the SPM Novorossia Party has appointed me as the movement leader.

I will be posting information about Pavel’s health condition on his official Facebook and VK pages.

Ekaterina Gubareva Photo: Today the mass media and the internet have been spreading a lot of speculations and utter lies recently. Enemies of DPR and Novorossia are now trying to use any reason to cause discord between the commanders and the political leaders of the republic. They are trying to portray any accident with some political background. Right on the verge of the first democratic elections in the republic this is first of all playing into the hands of the former Donetsk oligarchs and the Ukrainian government. They have failed to beat us using force, and now they are attempting to split us with internal quarrels. Anyone spreading the panic in the networks and supporting unjustified claims against any party is now bringing grist to Kiev fascists’ mill. In order to stop all the speculations around the recent messages, I would like to explain: Novorossia Party members ARE GOING TO PARTICIPATE in the parliamentary elections within the Free Donbass block. This block has already been registered by DPR Central Election Committee. We hope that Pavel will recover from the injury soon, and will continue our joint struggle, and meanwhile the Political Council of the SPM Novorossia Party has appointed me as the movement leader. I will be posting information about Pavel’s health condition on his official Facebook and VK pages. Ekaterina Gubareva"  from usually knowledgeable Facebook. Day before he was injured when car hit a tree as it was fleeing from being fired on, in what may or may not be an assassination attempt.  I've lost track of where he is in the scheme of things, only know he has some "news agency" website recently started. Never see him with the others. If he's standing for the official elections he can only represent Occupied Donetsk, I don't know how that would go.  KatKan (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

This is all about Novorossia elections. (Gubarev wife also played some role in Novorossia affairs for a while). --Resup (talk) 20:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

MoI, Police
Avakov: УБОП to be disbanded, as "too repressive" (УБОП = directorate for fighting organised crime). Other police to be cut 40 % (and what's instead? Right Sector?) --Resup (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * That I can tell, there is (a) oligarchs, too big to hit (b)hungry people stealing food (c) Right Sector, no need for traffic police as nobody can afford petrol. KatKan (talk) 22:45, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Avakov is having a cleanup. Disbanded Shakhtarsk battalion for looting and general marauding. says interfax. How convenient,now they can maraud individually and he's not responsible

Right Sector
Yarosh was lightly wounded today somewhere near airport (translated at fortruss). Watched some interviews with him recently. Kind of plainspoken- nonassuming guy, and a Commissar-at-Chief at the same time. Said to be headquartered in Dnepropetrovsk. Revolutionary nationalists formed Right Sector during Maidan. Unlike other nationalists like Svoboda advocate direct actions, like joining army units. Did not get very much else out of those interviews (also did not watch for long). His side, he says, has many students, young people. Opolchenie-mostly older, or mixed luck types, or Russian volunteers. Lists Garibaldi, de Gaulle as nationalism role models. Born in Dneprodzerzhinsk in a working Russian speaking family-started speaking Ukrainian at 16. Philology major from a pedagogical university, and with some early nationalist activism. Army service 89-91 in Strategic Missile branch of forces (as a guard,  occasional  fist-fighting in a few dedovshina episodes). On Yeltsin side during collapse of the USSR. Right sector started as a discussion platform for diverse young people (football fans including). Currently at some 10000 people strength throughout Ukraine. Consist of people who do not want to go to formal politics but want to participate in nationalistic-leaning local governance. No formal membership in RS. Interviews: with Gordon, another was with Shuster, about 48 minutes long, with link not saved. --Resup (talk) 01:11, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Cyber Berkut posted some documents said to show Yarosh commercial raiding activity. I do not really understand the story line (there are extra archives--have not downloaded or looked at those; but on the front page, there is only one commercial sale deed, something in Donetsk, signed by a Yarosh with different first/middle name; relation to Dmitro (Dmitrii) Yarosh of the RS is unclear, as well as what's exactly wrong there. Some content claimed:
 * Договор о перепродаже недвижимости, захваченной рейдерским способом боевиками Д.Яроша ( Deed on resale of real estate, seized in raiding activity by Yarosh militants)
 * Договор, подтверждающий проведение сделок с недвижимостью через подставные компании в оффшорах (A contract, showing real estate transactions through front offshore companies
 * Договор о продаже имущества ООО "Катрин Инвест", заключенный под давлением боевиков Д.Яроша (Contract for the sale of property of the "Catherine Invest" company, concluded under pressure from D.Yarosh militants)

Presumably archives show evidence of commercial activity by Yarosh or Right Sector. Do not feel like going into this at the moment. Somebody with a foot on the ground is in better position to explain what this all means. --Resup (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

"Stopping Ukraine's War"
Poland's PM: Ukraine's War Must Be Stopped Now. He goes on to advocate escalating Ukraine's war now to final victory, no mention of the various costs except the implication that none of them is great enough to argue against pushing the fight. What he implies this will stop is, rather, a predicted new World War. Maybe what he means is winning of all of Ukraine for the Oceania side (or ruining it for the Eurasian side at least) will better place that side for the coming war. I guess they're hoping to make it so lopsided and hopeless it won't even take off, and the few remaining world governments - including Russia - will slowly be gobbled up by 'the empire' to start really paying itself back for all these optional catastrophes. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

In that sense, a section for NATO and others' moves to "stopping Ukraine's War." --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "War is peace", George Orwell, 1984 (1949). --Resup (talk) 06:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

US plannimg NATO exercises in Ukraine in 2 weeks:

CRAZY. In the middle of a war they expect soldiers from 10 countries to go and play war games. "Focused on peacekeeping, it will include command post drills, patrolling and dealing with improvised explosive devices. "???? there is no peace to keep and no improvised explosive devices. Did I say crazy? KatKan (talk) 08:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hm... Just wondering, can the Mongolian Army join exercise? This looks to be for the Western media consumption.  --Resup (talk) 08:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)f
 * No, read the story. It was planned for June but had to be put off. Now they want to do it as sabre-rattling to scare Russia. Or some such stupidity. KatKan (talk) 09:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Peace Talks

 * ''Moved to Talk:Minsk Protocol

Rada Elections 2014
Nestor Shufrich, a Rada deputy (Party of Regions), participating in elections as a member of "Opposition block, " was beaten today in Odessa, by Right Sector and "Maidan self-defense." He was with his colleague Nikolai Skorik. --Resup (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Are there trustworthy polls? Here is some online Rada poll  --Resup (talk) 05:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

GRAD shelling of Sartana

 * ''Moved to GRAD shelling of Sartana

Sanctions
Sanctions may be not a good idea.

(a) They will not change situation on the ground. What was happening may continue to happen by same methods for same reasons, for as long as the conflict is not resolved.

(b) If Russia is denied technology or equipment, it will develop it itself, but also it will lead to further polarization into East and West which may be fairly stable and last for a long time.

(c) There is no moral superiority, and elevated sanctions talk at least appears to be self-serving.

--Resup (talk) 12:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

BBC: BBC: it is the use of economic power, which according to Barack Obama and David Cameron has forced Vladimir Putin to back a deal to stop the fighting in Ukraine.

No, it is not. --Resup (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Arseniy Yatsenyuk: sanctions were utterly useless (frazeologism 'Как мёртвому припарки' is literally 'as poultices for a dead') --Resup (talk) 23:47, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

New EU sanctions from 12 September. I really have no clue what (/ if /) are those guys thinking. And on the other hand, they also want a 3 way meeting on gas in Berlin on 20 September; apart from some carbon footprint, no clue what do they expect to come out of such a meeting.

I believe currently Ukraine got free trade conditions with respect to Custom Union or CIS members. It is unresolved how this will change with Ukraine under association agreement with EU. But Putin in Minsk clearly stated that Ukraine may end up to be out of the free trade and into the same regime as the rest of EU. Both tariffs and technical standards remain unresolved issues. There is some common ground, but on technical standards only.

. --Resup (talk) 14:18, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

In the meantime, Presidents of Russia, China, and Mongolia are doing a photo-op in Tajikistan... --Resup (talk) 17:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

US Sanctions. If they stay, security cooperation is under question mark. --Resup (talk) 14:32, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine-Konflikt: Merkel hält an Sanktionen gegen Russland fest "Deutschlands erste Kanzlerin Früher war sie "Kohls Mädchen", heute ist sie die mächtigste Frau Deutschlands: Angela Merkel hat sich an der Männerriege der Union vorbei an die Spitze der Regierung gekämpft. Anhänger schätzen ihre abwägende Art, Kritiker schmähen sie als Zauderin, " according to Spiegel. --Resup (talk) 18:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point, justification for sanctions is lost for me, and appears to belong to linguistics: "These actions, in close coordination with our EU and international partners, send a strong message to the Russian government that there are consequences for their actions that threaten the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine" (can't they use e-mail/plain talk for their strong messages)? While Russia has a plan to go to court over sanctions, Rosneft filed a case against the EU’s European Council in the general court under the European Court of Justice. So, lawyers vs linguists tag of war, of huge, global, economic and human consequences --Resup (talk) 11:12, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It might be the face-saving EU/US need for dropping them...  KatKan (talk) 12:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Merkel: the sanctions should go on (forever, I suppose, the Russian bear is not going to mouse-up, and the West is not going to mend its ways anytime soon either). --Resup (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Merkel: sanctions will not be lifted. (That is until "Crimea progress" which is "unlikely to happen".)--Resup (talk) 16:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

EU extended sanctions, while imposing new sanctions were delayed. According to NY Times, All decisions on sanctions require unanimous approval, meaning that Athens could torpedo any efforts to expand the list and block any move to impose wider economic restrictions, as some governments advocate. EU uses various criteria, sometimes qualified majority and sometimes unanimous; as I understand a common position is required for sanctions, and a common position requires unanimous vote (rules-section 6). If so, one country may block sanctions (am I missing something here)? Greece moves will follow their own domestic and political considerations, but there is still some hope for eventually more sensible positions. --Resup (talk) 08:27, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

USA
It is reported that US Ambassador to Ukraine Jeffrey Payette announced that in the near future, a group of USA military advisers will be deployed in Ukraine Guardian: " As the New York Times’s Mark Landler detailed, White House has “an extremely narrow definition of combat … a definition rejected by virtually every military expert.” According to the Obama administration, the 1600 “military advisers” that have steadily been flowing in Iraq fall outside this definition, despite the fact that “military advisers” can be: embedded with Iraqi troops; carry weapons; fire their weapons if fired upon; and call in airstrikes. In the bizarro dictionary of war employed by this White House, none of that qualifies as “combat”. " --Resup (talk) 14:47, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Academic Matters
(School year starts today).

Russia extends universities admission date for Ukrainian refuges(good, as student admission numbers are down. When they study, no time to run in the fields with Kalshnikovs) --Resup (talk) 11:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * while, judging by the photo, this school in Lugansk appear to be not quite student-ready... --Resup (talk) 18:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Russia:  'More than 60 thousand Ukrainian pupils went to school in Russia today ' --Resup (talk) 23:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Donetsk National University:more than 18 thousands of undergraduate and postgraduate students have been studying in DonNU including 300 students from foreign countries.

University of Luhansk, listed student number is 30,000; university website is currently down.

Luhansk state medical university: about 300 PhD faculty, around 7000 students

Donetsk National Technical University enrollment 22,000 students

Donetsk National Medical University enrollment 15,000 students.

. --Resup (talk) 03:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Morale Problems for Kiev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cOmEHiddzw&feature=youtu.be Can someone please see what this says? seems they're having problems. Bit I notice one at least is wearing the shiny new US flak jacket. Bit late now. KatKan (talk) 19:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 5 batalion of territorial defense of near-Carpathian region has deserted the ATO operation. (The video has caption of  tsn.ua -Ukrainian news channel in the lower left part of the screen, but youtube video has .by extension somewhere, which would stand for Belorussia). Pushniakov (I believe UAF commander) is involved with negotiations with 'mutineers' (Screen caption says military mutiny).


 * Goolge translate of Russian caption gives:  5 territorial defense battalion of Prikarpattie ( near-Carpathian region) has deserted. It is in full force and left the ATO with arms moving in Delyatyn. Soldiers have been stopped near Znamenka by spetsnaz (UAF). Military authorities lead  negotiations with them. Issue TSN.19 30 for August 27, 2014 --Resup (talk) 18:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * They left with their weapons. If UAF is surrounded, rebels typically require weapons turned in, before surrounded combatants can leave. --Resup (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I just read one where UAF column got surrounded by just 20 guys,by accidentally driving into a dead end. After 2 hours they surrendered. Rebels got 5 tanks and an APC, they let UAF keep enough vehicles to leave with, and let them keep their rifles, so they'd not be accused of desertion. KatKan (talk) 22:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, can't find a section for this, but... last few days am seeing a lot of NAF people in these striped under-shirts. They are Ukrainian paratroop undershirts.  They are also identical to the Russia ones (although the 10 "Russian paratroopers" caught last week were wearing camo ones). So whre did they get a new supply?


 * file photo of uniform http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/uploads/cmimg_12331.jpg

news photo of Zaharchenko sporting the same.

Commander of the 5 battalion was arrested for 2 months, criminal charges filed (disobeying orders, resisting commander's orders, avoiding military duty ), up to 10 years in prison is a possible punishment --Resup (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The only connection to Kiev moral is, there are so many uniforms they can't keep track of who is on which side. KatKan (talk) 18:00, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Merikov (Мериков),head of regional council of Nikolaev regional administration, answers a question from relatives of Ukrainian soldier. He says that those called for active military duty had about 3.5 months of preparation, and that they were not just sleeping, they carried out military service in Odessa region on the border with near-Dniester, and were engaged managing block-posts and doing some work at military-related factories. --Resup (talk) 23:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Відеозвернення родичів чернігівських бійців 13-го батальйону до Президента України. Video message from relatives of Chernigov 13 battalion fighters to the President of Ukraine). Group of mothers and wives ask Poroshenko in Ukrainian and Russian to bring their sons, husbands back home. They also point out, there was no troop rotation in some 4 months. --Resup (talk) 23:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

An UAF officer who changed sides and is now with DPR. His family still in pro-Kiev Ukraine and he is afraid to talk. Says that he had to join UAF when they came to him and said that unless he pays 1000$ 'buy-off', he will be drafted in '5 minutes'. He had an officer rank because he graduated from a University (that was common in the USSR and may still be the case Ukraine), so they figured he has to serve now. He says that those serving in UAF are "90%" people without a job or place to live; they get payments which they will not have otherwise. While those who understad what is going on, try to avoid serving as much as they can. He says that there is little order, and a lot is actually happening only because of  volunteers. He says that volunteers are "not more than 30%", and they are not from South East. He got ill soon after being drafted with pneumonia, and did not participate in fighting for UAF. (Well, that is handy when you change sides in a war, isn't it?)--Resup (talk) 07:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Surely this guy is mistaken. "The first attack has been faced by 6 thousand Ukrainian soldiers having only small arms, scattered across the entire front. In a few months, Ukraine has created one of the most combat capable armies on the continent. Now, foreigners come to us to study our experience, operations and technologies of fighting against the hybrid war." Poroshenko just said, in at a press conference 3 days ago. Hahaha,they are coming to see how an army can lose so much equipment so fast, must be a world record. KatKan (talk) 15:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Road to Novoazovsk
An apparently Russian convoy has made it to Novoazovsk. Seven villages north of there have been taken by "rebels" according to BBC.Com which would mean a huge southern area added to the Republics. They say some 90 Ukies have surrendered (though they seem to have a new vehicle,another USA gift??? KatKan (talk) 19:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I rubbed this piece under the noses of a couple of "journalists" today. They are so clueless in their echo chamber, it's actually more frightening than if there were a huge conspiracy. Well, one down to the level of those guys, that is... --CE (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The Mystery of the Tanks

 * NATO has some newish satellite/video game images of "Russian armaments" but the never seem to catch them actually crossing the border. I thought they had better capabilities than that.
 * "Mr Poroshenko cancelled an official trip to Turkey and convened an urgent meeting of his security advisers to deal with what he called the rapidly deteriorating situation in the embattled Donetsk region."
 * in the BBC version "... experts at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London" are claiming they've identified a tank which is a T-72 "variant, distinguished by the prominent Kontakt-5 Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) arrangement - the boxes on the turret front - (which)is commonly referred to by Western sources as the T-72BM. It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia." Oh, except the T-72 was designed and is still built at Kharkiv, including ones with Kontakt-5 turrets. Oh well. Experts. KatKan (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * New-ish tank production should be in Nizhnii Tagil, Urals, Russia . Not aware of another manufacturer, maybe foreign countries having a license or pirating. Some (older model) tanks may be in former Warsaw Pact countries, and may be shipped to Ukraine, if so desired. There may be some production in Kharkiv. I do not know exact details and models. If there is production in Kharkiv, it may not be in good shape now, in reality, and they may need to come from Russia or from outside (e.g. former Warsaw pact) --Resup (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * There has been a story a good two weeks ago of 58 T-72 spotted in Hungary on their (short) way to Ukraine. Here is what seems to be an English translation from today of the original August 12 Hungarian article. Here is an August 16 piece on Novorussia News that says Ukraine payed only 10% of the price to an unknown buyer, who payed the full price to Hungary. And here is a strange RIA Novosti piece from yesterday about how the Czech Government doesn't know anything about a batch of 58 T-72 that a private company Excalibur Defense Ltd. purchased from Hungary and "began transporting" into Czech Republic on Monday. WTF? --CE (talk) 18:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Just found this three hours old statement from the Czech Ministry of Defense correcting themselves and now saying that they did know about the purchase. According to them, Excalibur Defense Ltd. is the "owner" and "Hungary-based", while the unnamed "end-user" is "a Prague-based enterprise". Other sources say Excalibur is Czech-based. The only Excalibur Defense Ltd. I can find on first look is apparently a work of fiction. --CE (talk) 18:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

WOW Hungarian does NOT translate into good English with machine translation. The word order is different. Luckily I am able to read the original. This writer is one of many in Hungary who is having second thoughts about EU and NATO involvement, as they can't really afford it. The story is So, the Defence Equipment Company offered the tanks for sale by tender. The first lot was 58 T-72s manufactured in Belarus. These were bought in March by Excalibur Defense Kft, a company that only exists since October last year and is supposedly wholly owned by a Czech individual. The second tender, in July, was also won by this entity (22 tanks). The company is properly registered with the authorities as an arms dealer. The reserve price was 45,200,000 forints for the 22 tanks, $US188,600 or only $8600 each. Because there was some competition they probably paid a bit more, to win the tender. But the market price is around $100,000 so the question is, why does the Defence Equipment Company sell them so cheaply? one tenth the market price, less than scrap metal price?

"This deal can be called corrupt and fraudulent" they write, "for selling national assets at such a loss.

The only nearby country currently at war is Ukraine, which is suffering serious equipment losses, so we assume that is where the buyer was able to resell them.

The fact is, USA is spending millions daily to equip the Ukrainian military. and has suggested to its NATO allies who happen to have Soviet era war machinery, that they could send these Ukraine's way to help them out. Thus the Allies can rid themselves of the old Soviet armaments, and of course later restock with super expensive modern Western arms, naturally not for scrap prices.

According to some sources, Ukraine would be happy to buy some MIGs to built up her air strength, maybe from Hungary or Poland. Here the Hungarian Defence Equipment Company has a lucky solution -- since we have had 24 MIG 29s for sale since last year.

So this is how Hungary contributes to the mowing down of thousands of Ukrainian civilian lives. Will this be the explanation, sooner or later in the newspapers, for why this sale didn't contribute to balancing the National Budget? because if that was the aim, many an African or Asian nation would have haply paid full price for these armaments".

My thoughts: Excalibur sounds like something the CIA might call a company. On the other hand,there are various oligarchs in Ukraine who are contributing to the "cause", though mostly by running their own private armies nobody has control over.

BUT where did the tanks end up? there is a rich Ukrainian oligarch who used to be a President....... hard to say.

The other translations about " sold 58 tanks through an unnamed agent at only 10% of their market value. The final buyer, which is currently not definitively known, paid a full price for the armored vehicles". are WRONG. They say nothing about what the end buyer paid. They are saying the Hungarian government was complicit in selling the tanks for next to nothing, and implies it was to help Ukraine kill its own civilians, not for some news company to make a killer profit (pardon the pun).

HAHA, comments on the Novorussia story suggest they were bought to be repainted Russian looking so Russia could be blamed for an invasion.

The FIRST Czech statement is correct- they issued no licence for importing tanks into the country, because they were being sent to Ukraine. It was a Hungarian Government website that claimed (or assumed) they were being sent to the Czech Republic. But people saw it on a train just on the border with Ukraine. If the Czechs later changed their statement, that's because someone kicked them. The actual purchaser was an Excalibur incorporated in Hungary but it is part of a complex Excalibur group.

Hungary's down to an Army of about 20,000 or 1/7th what it had in Warsaw Pact days. Heaps of good uniforms available thee if Donbass needs winter uniforms really cheap. They only want ab;out $2 for a MIG so uniforms must be about 50c each.

By coincidence,at the same time, "Russia's largest private crude producer LUKoil has agreed to sell 44 petrol stations in the Czech Republic to Hungarian oil company MOL" another 76 in Hungary and 27 in neighbouring Slovakia to another Hungarian company". LUKoil is getting out of EU because of the sanctions. They also sold 44 Ukrainian stations to an Austrian buyer, because Red Sector kept blockading their stations. KatKan (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Latest on the tanks: Russia complained it may be a breach of all sorts of agreements to sell to Ukraine. Hungarian Defence Ministry is making the excuse that the tanks were on the trains NOT to go to Ukraine, but being delivered to a nearby military depot for preparation for sending to Czech Republic. This railhead and depot being in Hungary's EAST and Czech Republic being clear across the country to the WEST, this is nonsense.  So next time they'll just put them in covered waggons, darn that sticky-beak middle class with their smartphones. KatKan (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

EXCALIBUR SPEAKS: In a news article an Excalibur director denies he is selling tanks to Ukraine. It's a long story but the meat of it is : Director of Excalibur Defense Kft, Stefan Turay, interviewed by phone, said he's been dealing in tanks for 15 years without any trouble.

He says his company got mixed into this allegation because they just won 2 tenders for Hungarian tanks. But the tanks shown on the train are not ones he bought. His are being taken into the Czech Republic on flat bed trucks, 3 at a time. (The article has a photo of tanks on a flat bed, not geolocatable).

A lot of detail is given of the various permits both from Hungary and from Czech Republic.

Turay states the tanks on the train were being moved to an army depot near that railhead,from another one further west that is being closed dowm. Army spokesmen have said the same, but admit the tanks sold to Excalibur came from the same (closed down) depot.

The article claims the first report was on a pro-Russian far rightwing site, which had just put 2 and 2 together - the recent sales and seeing tanks near the Ukraine border.

Who knows? KatKan (talk) 09:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the update! Hmm, so at the time of the tank-spotting the first batch of 58 was already sold, and the news out and connected. And then last week the second batch of 22 was sold and started to get delivered to Czech Republic. Kind of makes sense and we have to trust the "pro-Russian right-wing site" (and that label seems to be defendable at least for the first part, given that they show truthful maps about the situation in Donbas) that the photos were made where they claim to have at least a bit of a story remaining. But also sounds a bit like "nothing to see here, here's what we came up with to make you go away". --CE (talk) 10:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I am sure the railway images would be geolocatable to where they claim -- people living there would have screamed by now that it's not there. Also both the Army and the Excalibur guy admit there could be tanks on trains visible there. They just give a different reason. This reason may be true. But they could not very well admit to sending them to Ukraine, could they? Meanwhile the 3 on the truck could be anywhere, and nobody there is sitting at the border counting them.
 * In fact, if I were selling tanks illegally, I would take 3 openly to where I had permits to take them. Then bring them back in covered trucks with other goods visible, and take them back again, until the licensed number had been seen to go over. The illegal delivery though is tricky on open flat beds. They'd need to be repacked, too, unless border control on both sides was paid off or otherwise in on it, or they had the right falsified documents. KatKan (talk) 10:27, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking this news was wrong. Ukraine actually has heaps of tanks, they had about 1500 T-72s when the Soviet broke up. They even sold some off, to places like Iraq. Of course a lot are in storage. BUT. There are "third forces" in play, private oligarch armies running around, maybe they need some? and Kiev won't lend them any of course. KatKan (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Opolchenie in Luhansk said to destroy  Leopard 1 tank, said to be transferred to Ukraine after NATO exercises. Also claim that Polish-speaking soldiers and Polish armored vehicles are present. Opolchenie speaks of the need to liberate remaining territory of the region. --Resup (talk) 01:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * On Oct 20 they destroyed 22 APCs and tanks out of a large convoy near Schastye and found Polish number plates and equipment. The plates were on an SUV, ie the "adviser".  Story with the latest death figures also says some 500 Polish mercenaries have died here. KatKan (talk) 04:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Another tank story I don't have a link for, Ukraine is getting old out-of-storage tanks refurbished in a works in Kharkhiv. That is a rebel town where the partisans are lying low waiting for reinforcements (they did a video about it). I bet those tanks will break down quick smart, hehehe. Meanwhile in Donetsk, using a nationalised Akhmatov factory, they are refurbishing their own to a higher standardKatKan (talk) 04:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Video appears to show actual Leopard 1 in the mud (at 1:10). Previous photo they showed looked more like a stock photo.
 * Text also goes over how Poroshenko called Odessa proudly pro -Bandera and how great that actually is; he also said that Odessa "paid a very heavy price." All those statements are just for the record (in an appropriate place), as far as I am concerned  --Resup (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

And now Helicopters for Ukraine
Next in line to help Ukraine with arms is Croatiawhich is trying to get them some helicopters. Once again with the USA sweetener of getting better gear from the US. What good timing! everyone conveniently gets rid of their second-hand old stuff. If Ukraine ever joins NATO they'll have to pay cash,as (a) nobody to pass the junk on to and (b) most will be shot out of the sky by then anyway. Don't know how they still figure this is a god deal for them. KatKan (talk)

6 ready + 6 under repair (in Croatia) multi-purpose  Mi -8 and potentially 15-20 large gunship Mi-24 (borrowed un-repaired from foreign countries) reported in the (crocodiles from ...)  article.--Resup (talk) 17:34, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

NATO weapons in Ukraine
155 shell said to be US-made, NATO-used, and said to be designed for М109 А1 howitzer,  was found at the site of shelled cathedral church in Gorlovka. Same report shows smaller caliber (75mm) multiple rocket launch missiles, which is not Ukrainian or Russian, and appears to be NATO/ western (rusvesna-Gorlovka)--Resup (talk) 17:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Road to Mariupol
The South is about to fall. Ukie forces apparently are going home or surrendering without much fight. In the cities,they still fight house to house.

DPR


 * Volnovakha taken by Novorossiya Armed Forces (NAF); South-Western Cauldron closed off.
 * Yalta (near Mariupol) taken, NAF is now 12 km away from Mariupol.
 * Mariupol - Zaporozhye (Berdyansk) road closed off by NAF. Virtually all settlements around Mariupol appear to be taken by NAF. Mariupol Cauldron closed off.
 * Fighting has crossed the border into Zaporozhye. Saboteur-Reconnaissance Groups (SRG) and guerrillas active inside Zaporozhye’s borders.
 * Ukrainian punitive forces surrendering in the many cauldrons, the rate of surrenders is picking up pace.
 * NAF is pushing outward toward Yasinovataya, Maryinka, Karlovka, Krasnogorovka (west of Donetsk)

AND, the BIGGEST (albeit not fully confirmed) NEWS: Donetsk Airport taken by NAF today.

LPR


 * Lutugino partially controlled by the Militia, very heavy urban combat there, although Rodakovo was lost (plans to retake it shortly).
 * Lyashko appears to be still trapped in Severodonetsk, which is besieged by Mozgovoi’s Brigade (I have no further information since a couple of days ago).
 * LPR has encircled Shchastye and Metallist and is advancing on the Ukrainian positions there, as well as in the north-eastern direction (Stanitsa Luganskaya, which still remains contested).
 * NAF continues to advance on Deblatsevo, taking checkpoints on the outskirts of the city.
 * LPR is planning some major advances in the next few days, hopefully to clean up most of the remaining cauldrons.

from SAKER his info seems to be good. The larger proper military formations, rather than small guerrilla groups is paying off. KatKan (talk) 05:53, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Novoazovsk is said to be firmly controlled by Novorossia opolchenie--Resup (talk) 05:51, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

NAF attack, 'Southern front'? Strelkov quoted.--Resup (talk) 19:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Mariupol

 * ''Moved to Talk:Mariupol market shelling

The oil/gas motive for Russia, EU and USA
I am trying to "follow the money" to see Russia's interest in this war. Taking over Crimea was very profitable for Gazprom.

"Gazprom’s payments for gas transit through Ukraine made in 2012-2013 were expected to cover the period up to January 2015. However, after Gazprom cancelled the discount that used to be given in exchange for the presence of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, the price of gas used to calculate transit rates skyrocketed to $485 per thousand cubic meters." as per Ria Novosti

Apparently, the transit price paid to Ukraine depends on the price of gas that Ukraine gets for its own use. They got a discount price because of the Fleet being stationed there. Now that Crimea has been taken over the discount has stopped. This effectively raised the gas price to $485.50 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas, but a partial discount was negotiated in December. Gazprom charges its European buyers $370 on average. Currently the price to Ukraine is $385.50. Even at $100 not having to give the discount is giving Gazprom many billions in extra profit.

Russia cut off gas supplies to Kiev in June because they are behind with their bill. They are living off stored supplies. Part of the loans Yanukovych had negotiated was to pay off this debt, and indeed may have been a big factor in deciding to take Russian rather than EU loans.

USA hopes to profit by developing local Ukrainian oil and gas supplies, to help ease reliance on Russian gas. Europe is behind this idea as they, too, are very reliant, which means in a poor negotiating position on price. They need to be careful how much they upset Russia with sanctions.KatKan (talk) 01:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


 * A brief story but simply explaining the US connections in Ukraine's gas and oil supply situation. Some 55% of Russia's gas exports go through Ukraine, so they fear that closer ties to Europe might cause problems. Ukraine gets paid transit fees for the gas that passes through there. If Novorussia comes into existence Russia might save billions in transit fees for the gas that goes through there. Meanwhile USA wants Ukraine firmly on the EU side, as US companies have contracts for oil exploration in the Donetsk region (Shell) and fracking (Halliburton, fancy that). Europe gets now about 1/3 of their gas from Russia, all through pipes running through Ukraine. They can't be too pushy, for fear of being turned off (as has happened before).


 * The next talks with Ukraine are due in a few weeks.They are a few billion behind with their own bill. They just lost the discount they got for hosting the Russian fleet in Crimea. That should be an interesting meeting. About 60% of Ukraine's own gas is from Russia. They have been accused in the past of syphoning, Winter is coming. Good map in the article. Not shown are 3 gas fields in Luhansk and 7 or 8 further west, all untapped, as well as oil fields in the south. KatKan (talk) 14:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I personally think the resources are secondary motives, especially for Russia. But it's an interesting field to explore. As soon as Slavyansk was "liberated", the first fracking preparations went on - because it's in the heart of a large field, to be explored by Kolomoiski's Burisma, which recently made the news for hiring Joe Biden's son. There are also vast fields in the Black Sea, the claims to which have significantly changed with Crimea going back to Russia - as the New York Times is well aware. Also, Ukraine is known as Europe's breadbasket and Monsanto and cohorts are on the case and likely wouldn't be pleased with policies of some "People's Republics" if they are anything like Russia's. --CE (talk) 16:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

There is also this Caspian-5 group nearby, all oil and gas producers, and including (from realpolitik angle) Russia and Iran Caspian Sea Summit Kicks Off In Russia --Resup (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)--Resup (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it's the New York Times which is spot-on this time around... --Resup (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Financials
Russia is said to lend to Ukraine 25 bln $ in total Putin interview to ARD (Germany). In particular, Also exposure, according to another source:
 * GazPromBank lent 3.2 bln $ (1.8 to Naftogaz Ukraine+1.4 to private petrochemical company ), and can call for early repayment in both cases (under some conditions). 1.4 bln debt is not serviced: gas is kept in underground storage and not passed to consumers, no moneys collected. If debt is called early, it may cause collapse of Ukraine finances, but otherwise GazPromBank may be in trouble. It is under sanctions.
 * Finance Ministry lent 3 bln $ to Ukraine about a year ago. It can call early repayment under some conditions (if Ukraine debt is over 60 % of GDP)
 * VEB Russia: 4 bln $
 * Sberbank $4 billion
 * VTB: about 0.5 bln $ or so
 * --Resup (talk) 23:28, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Independence Day
Well, it went quietly. Lots of shiny new equipment being shown off Soviet style. Most Western media reported it straight. One single report contained something critical. "On the other side of Independence Square, a group of fighters from the Aidar volunteer battalion said they had travelled to Kiev overnight from the front line and were disgusted with what they had seen at the parade.

"They wouldn't let us take part, they tried not to let us into Kiev, even," said one of the men who gave his name as Zhenya. He said of their group of around 100 fighters, only 34 had returned, of the others, 15 had died and the rest were injured. "We wanted the parade to be a parade of those who are actually fighting, not for those who have been sitting in Kiev the whole time. And look at all that new military hardware, I have not seen a single thing as new as that out on the front line." the The Guardian said.

In Donetsk they paraded some prisoners, described as dejected, in assorted dirty clothing. TWO sites claimed they had their heads shaved, ONE of these actually said this on top of a PHOTO showing them with all their hair. NY Times is the worst. Yeah sure, people waste eggs and tomatoes to throw at them? the Western media is starting to get to me. In the US various Human Rights experts opined the parade is in breach of the Geneva Convention, which they know so little of they don't know it only applies to the signatories. GGGRRRR KatKan (talk) 22:18, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Elections - Rada dissolved
Ukrainian Rada has been dissolved and October 26 has been as the election date. " Poroshenko said the dissolution, which was prefigured by the breakup of the majority coalition last month, was in line with "the expectations of the vast majority of the citizens of Ukraine" and called it a move toward "cleansing" the parliament.

Many members of parliament "are allies of the militants-separatists," Poroshenko said, referring to the pro-Russian rebels who have battled government troops in the country's east since April."

"He emphasized the need to elect new leaders from the war-torn areas of east Ukraine in order to represent the region in the new government. It wasn't clear how it would be possible to conduct elections at such short notice in Donetsk and Luhansk, where hundreds of thousands have fled their homes and shelling between rebel and government forces continues daily." Varioius versions on ABC and on RT news

Very convenient. Have elections when 1/2 or more of the people are NOT THERE. I am sure they'll be properly represented. For sure. Someone should insist on UN observers for this one. KatKan (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Good, there's a spot.


 * Reuters Aug 21 Porpsheko announces he may dissolve. ""The decision will be made when there is a constitutional basis for it and that moment, as everyone knows, is on Independence Day (Aug. 24)," Poroshenko was quoted as saying by Interfax Ukraine news agency."
 * Poroshenko, a wealthy confectionery magnate, and his pro-Europe leadership hope to have stabilised the situation enough by October to be able to hold an election under normal conditions which will earn his new administration increased legitimacy.
 * And there's a reason - sttle down and let us "stabilize" you if you want a fair vote and representation. Your old sympathisers are gone, and you'll have to be different, non-rebel people living under "reconstruction" before you get a replacement. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * AFP Aug 25
 * Many lawmakers are "if not direct sponsors and accomplices, then supporters of the separatist militants" in eastern Ukraine, he said, adding that "snap parliament polls are part of my peace plan".
 * "I consider a victory in Donbass and a victory of the forces of democratic reform in Verkhovna Rada as a linked process," he said, referring to the popular name for Ukraine's eastern separatist strongholds of Donetsk and Lugansk. 

--Caustic Logic (talk) 23:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * So he's counting 2 months to

all in 8 weeks. Must be Superman. In 8 days he couldn't organise 200 trucks to be inspected.
 * build enough trust that he will NOT kill 100 for every 1 his side lost as he threatened
 * do this while still sending ballistic missiles into Donbass
 * get disarmament (unilateral no doubt)
 * rebuild the towns to be livable, electricity, water,etc back on so all refugees can go home
 * organise polling booths

Snap polls sound like a good way to disenfranchise people. Then claim his is a legitimately freely elected Government.

Ok, the people were not happy "their" President got kicked out. But they're not fighting because they had support in the Rada, a lot of good that's doing them. He might like to consider disarming the "volunteer" Third Force private armies that are running around making trouble.KatKan (talk) 02:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

ACLOS Peace Talk
Crisis in eastern Ukraine unlikely to be solved exclusively by force - Poroshenko Itar-Tass Yeah, it cannot   --Chingachgook (talk) 22:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)  September in New York  --Chingachgook (talk) 23:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Президент України Петро Порошенко провів зустріч з заступником Генерального секретаря ООН з політичних питань Джеффрі Фелтманом, який перебуває в Україні за дорученням Генерального секретаря ООН Пан Гі Муна. Президент висловив подяку Генеральному секретарю за підтримку миру та деескалації ситуації на Донбасі  --Chingachgook (talk) 23:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine Independence Day celebrations  --Chingachgook (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Is there anybody watching for fighting to not to resume after those parades? (I have no idea). At this time it looks promising but may easily slip back. Troops are not going to parade day after day I suppose, and it is unclear what they plan to do after parades --Chingachgook (talk) 02:06, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

It appears at this point to best have an agreement that fighting is not resumed, otherwise it may split back where it was, sooner or later. If that would be the case, it is not very likely I will be following closely what is going on there, it is somebody else's problem, not mine --Chingachgook (talk) 02:15, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

It is not actually only war or peace, there is also Makhno scenario, батько Махно nobody is really in charge fighting as they please, whenever would be there preference. I simply do not have time to watch a movie of that length, if it is going that way, this one is on somebody else --Chingachgook (talk) 02:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

A proposal is filed assembly-of-a-new-world-order. Any response ? (Hey, and what to do with this world order)? --Resup (talk) 18:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * LOL, by none other than Henry Kissinger! Alex Jones and comrades are going to throw a hissy. Will read later, thanks. --CE (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * From Kissinger: "...A nation founded explicitly on an idea of free and representative governance, the U.S. identified its own rise with the spread of liberty and democracy and credited these forces with an ability to achieve just and lasting peace". Except their own representative governance has never reached even 50% representation, more and more are being disenfranchised, and is falling apart. Justice and peace are sorely lacking for the poorer population, and the profits of globalisation somehow never trickle down. USA needs get its own house in order.
 * "...The traditional European approach to order had viewed peoples and states as inherently competitive; to constrain the effects of their clashing ambition.." and deep down they still clash, especially when the price of economic growth (on paper)is more inequality at home, for the poorer nations in particular. Forced to follow externally mandated rules and targets, but having to solve their own problems on their own, many nations have a lot of internal unrest about EU membership.
 * The Ukraine crisis weakens the US and EU both. Russia's rejection of (mostly food) imports from sanctioning EU states hits their lowest paid, whole regions of them. Every unsold orange or apple is a bomb to weaken the EU. Every sanction reversed to avoid domestic trouble is a land mine for US ambitions.
 * my 2c worth KatKan (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * US debt is reaching unsustainable levels, and dollar continuing to be the dominant reserve currency forever is not guaranteed. And at the same time, just too many things are dysfunctional. US best interest is to fix herself, not to fix the rest of the world (and the rest of the world would follow, anyway). --Resup (talk) 22:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Like, the US spent something like 6 bln (from the fall of SU times) to do something in Ukraine. What's the return on that investment? --Resup (talk) 22:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * What's the return? on gas and oil fields? trillions over time. Plus The extra influence on Europe by supplying them this super important product, which will translate into other deals they will not lose on. Foot in the door to develop other industries. Sell other goods. Bragging rights to thumb their noses at Russia. The huge US debt is only Government debt. These investments are mostly by companies which happen to have people in the government ie they own the government. They have plenty of money; they get tax concessions everywhere or just pay in a tax haven. Ukraine national gas pipes can be privatized and sold to foreigners now (newish laws) they'll do ok on the stock exchange, too. Russia will lose on it, they're not keen to do so.  Read section 4 on this page about oil and gas. KatKan (talk) 03:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, if there is peace (everybody involved has good relations), those money things can be negotiated in rational ways, not fought in wars. Everybody may $win$ in the end. Using warfare or fighting talk, is not going to get the US into Donbas.   (Reminds Iraq situation, I believe foreign oil companies currently present in Iraq is Exxon-Mobile -- Shell, West Qurna 1, and Lukoil (Russia)--Statoil (Norway) in West Qurna 2, with only Lukoil actually remaining West_Qurna ). (There is lots of coal also in Donbas, if anybody cares).(I don't think Russia is driven by $ considerations, in fact it is using $ matters as negotiation/warfare tool). (As for the US, the only way to get oil $ out there is peaceful way).  --Resup (talk) 06:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Aid Delivery
Food trucks moved to the border, but were stopped till tomorrow morning by Ukraine border guard because some stupid papers were not there. Or rather border guards did not show up as they were supposed to because, they claimed, papers are not in order  They claim there is no proper paperwork regarding content of those shipments. They are not happy with just Red Cross paperwork and need some other paperwork which is not there. This is usual crap they normally give you if they want to give you a headache. (This potentially can play forever, unless there is a call from their boss  to sort this out. ). All of that stuff is voiced by Andrei Lysenko. --Chingachgook (talk) 20:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Andrew Roth reported from Donetsk, and Nick Cumming-Bruce from Geneva. Yes, but the trucks did not cross, it appears --Chingachgook (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Andrei Lysenko: Red Cross has not received yet guarantees of safe passage --Chingachgook (talk) 21:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels, quoting Itar-Tass: border guards did not show up and did not respond to attempts to contact them. (Hm, I wonder how exactly that works, with no guards at such sort of border? Like, what needs to happen for border guards to show up on the border? )--Chingachgook (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Captured Ukrainian team planned attack on Russian humanitarian aid convoy — militia Itar-Tass, Aug 15
 * Militia in Ukraine's town of Luhansk said on Friday they have captured a reconnaissance group of National Guard tasked with preparing an attack on the Russian humanitarian aid convoy.
 * A load of weapons and ammunition was found in a car carrying three saboteurs, the militia headquarters of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic and Donetsk People's Republic said.
 * "The weapons and ammunition were hidden in bags of food," a headquarters representative said.
 * During an interrogation, the saboteurs said their mission was to plant mines along a local road and attack the Russian convoy delivering humanitarian aid to residents of south-eastern Ukraine.
 * One of the detainees said the Ukrainian army had sent seven teams of saboteurs to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions and that these groups were setting up ambushes on roads leading to militia-controlled areas.  [Who wrote this???  not me].


 * pffft. Same story as Ukies told the MH17 investigators - "terrorists mined the roads so you can't go there". So who had the idea first? Also have seen predictions Russians or terrorists will attack it,to put blame on Kiev. So safest for everyone to leave it alone. KatKan (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

August 22 it's reported the convoy finally entered Ukraine, without waiting for Kiev's permission. They protest they've been InvAIDed! Vicious shipments of food and medicine are on their way to keep the "inhumans" alive and ... maybe able to hold out and not have their wills broken. It's criminal! --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:39, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Big fuss being made about the trucks being half-empty. The fear from everyone is "so they can bring in guns etc". HOW? Red Cross inspects them in the Customs zone, and they're half empty, when and where will they load the guns? is there a stack of armaments ready to be loaded, standing inside the Customs zone? this is stupid.
 * They could of course pick up light gear and people already in, and get them back to good positions in the north of the city. They could also just be light because they'll be traveling over rough roads and have to go to many destinations on the other end. KatKan (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The latter is a good guess. A week ago when the pre$$titutes were hanging around the convoy in droves, they were allowed to inspect them, and they were told why some of them were almost empty: To have reserve trucks if some break down. --CE (talk) 01:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I laughed when I saw that excuse. That means they are expecting 75% breakdown? but you don't want full load if the road is maybe 75% shell craters. They can't add large heavy equipment, but men with portable weapons could hitch a ride... we'll see... KatKan (talk) 12:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 75% break down? Huh? They haven't all been almost empty, it's just those ones that made the "news". --CE (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

"Russia sending a convoy into Ukraine without Ukraine's approval is a further provocation and a violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity," said Barrack Obama, president of the self-declared "United States of America," increasingly considered the world's foremost terrorist organization, insisting the humanitarian aid be removed from Ukraine at once. The "so-called humanitarian convoy ... can only deepen the crisis in the region," said NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. "They were this close to getting starved out and surrendering," he did not add by way of explanation. "Eventually, the terrorists would have given up, just for some bread and medicine for their children, water, electricity, and a bit of peace. Now here comes Russia, bringing some of that in without insisting on surrender first? It's appalling and it has to end." The European Union has called on Russia to recognize Ukraine's sovereignty with regards to starving citizens inside borders; binding conventions are clear, they say, that if a country keeps your food out and refuses to deliver its own, for freakin' ever, to people it considers subhuman and is trying to "crush," all states must let the starvation proceed, rather than drawing it out. Violation is punishable, as is nothing at all and anything. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:10, 23 August 2014 (UTC) Russian UN Ambassador Churkin tried to deflect from those facts by implying that Baby food hardly would support rebels, and was urbanely informed by a Voice of America correspondent that "Rebels have babies too." --CE (talk) 10:27, 23 August 2014 (UTC) Ukraine's state security chief Valentin Nalivaychenko said the aid convoy was a "direct invasion" and the medicine in particular was a "well-planned dangerous provocation." He added, almost invitingly, that Ukraine would not attack the convoy and wanted to avoid any confrontations. He managed to not blurt out "but oh boy are those terrorists gonna blow the food trucks to hell..." --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * CONVOY UNLOADED and gone home without incident.
 * "MOSCOW — The huge convoy of Russian trucks that entered war-torn eastern Ukraine on Friday, sharply escalating tensions, returned to Russia on Saturday after unloading food and medicine in the city of Luhansk, and the Russian government quickly declared its satisfaction with the operation." from NYTimes
 * The bast**d Anglo media. I just heard on my radio brief news, verbatim "The Russian aid convoy in Ukraine has turned around and crossed back into Russia, following protests that it was an invasion". Making it sound like they had been forced to go back still loaded.  They did NOT TURN AROUND. They unloaded and went home. WITHOUT INCIDENT.


 * The still need find some fault "In Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, a military spokesman, Col. Andriy Lysenko, said the Ukrainian government was also hoping to defuse the situation, but he accused Russia of using some of the aid trucks to take military equipment from Ukrainian factories back to Russia. However, he offered no evidence to support his assertion." from same story above. I bolded a phrase that is fresh and unusual in Western media. Is the mental tide turning? maybe?
 * Still complaining impossible to know what was in them, as not were inspected. Hello?? they got unloaded?  in Luhansk?  doesn't Kiev claim to control that now????
 * One government here I would not believe if they told me the sky is blue. Another, not if they told me a sky even exists. KatKan (talk) 13:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * This Lysenko character is reaching Comical Ali territory. Take a look at the latest of his daily SitRep maps. See the convoy? It's a "terrorist attack". Hahaha. Here's the latest RT report which includes a ride with the convoy to Lugansk yesterday and footage of it being unloaded. --CE (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * And terrorist subhuman guy says "we cleared this road. Come this way. It is known as the road of life"... "known" meaning everyone had been told about it, to leave it alone. I think which truck was going where was prearranged with the Donbass guys, too, they're the ones to knows what's needed the most. And BIG BIG COUP for Russia ahead of the talks on Tuesday. KatKan (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Fairy tale busted by the OSCE at the border, who observed the full number of 227 vehicles return which had entered Ukraine the day before. Both happened in groups of around 40, likely going to different destinations and/or on different routes. Take that Lie-senko:
 * The cargo trucks arrived with the rear cargo tailgate open. After the Russian authorities had quickly checked the trucks, the cargo tailgates were closed and afterwards the vehicles departed in groups of 10-12.
 * --CE (talk) 16:13, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Good on them. That's what observers are for. Doing something useful for a change. KatKan (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I did not have enough proper rest to figure out aid delivery, but we are not an aid delivery operation, we have zero budget and zero resources, and they need to figure something sensible out quickly or this may never happen at all. --Chingachgook (talk) 19:01, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I guess I'm not the only one who would like to know what you mean by "we" here. If you feel like giving us a brief description about where you're coming from, it would be appreciated (ideally on your user page). And please do so when you are not tired and in a hurry. And extend that to your other contributions as well. You have again posted stuff in very small parts, very difficult to make sense of, and partly unsigned about the "mass graves" on the other page this evening. Please take care that what you share is understood by the readers. --CE (talk) 21:20, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Here I think he means ACLOS, as we're doing "peace talk" and coming up with the plans for the future, but (jokingly exaggerating the concept) one might realize suddenly we can't deliver aid. But agreed - less cryptic is good. Though I can be sloppy and unclear too - will watch that. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, missed we're in the "ACLOS Peace Talk" area. --CE (talk) 00:30, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, I here stand corrected. It's I, than. (whatever, just keep this moving) --Chingachgook (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey ... I also cannot deliver aid to Ukraine... --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * UNLESS someone here is actually in Donbass physically, "we" can't do the deliveries. But someone(s) are there doing it. Maybe not the official authorities in the towns, whoever they were in each place. But somehow the trucks got sent to numerous places, they were given places to unload at, routes were decided, cleared and secured in advance. I am sure the same people who organised that also organised getting the right mix of items in each place, and can organise getting them to the most needy in their area. This is the start of civil local government. The distribution process will bring more people together, bring more problems out in the open, find more volunteers to organise doing something about them. Democratic co-operation.


 * I am new here and I am in Australia and I don't know anyone else's situation. That's what I think, and I apologise if I'm speaking out of turn saying this. On one level "Peace talk" is just talk, unless "we" are there on the ground.  On another level, if good ideas are found (not the total big solution -- is anyone here invited to the official talks?) --  but ideas for specific areas of peace or rebuilding --  those ideas could be spread to the people who ARE there. Give them a seed to grow, together, that maybe they can't see from being too close to it.  I am starting a new section for an idea I just noticed. KatKan (talk) 00:27, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No, nothing official really ... Petri gets around a bit with some Finland and even Russia people. I try to pester powerful people on occasion by e-mail ... no response. Words to actions and working for justice, etc. - I value it, and I think we do. Will check out this idea. --Caustic Logic (talk) 14:10, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

More Aid
This time no screaming about invasion. Third convoy of Russian aid slips in and out without comment from Kiev. This time they went to Donetsk as UNHCR was in Luhansk at the time. The latter is bringing window glass and roofing iron, to help get houses winter-proofed. Red Cross is too bogged down in chicken bureaucracy to be any use. So, it looks like NR will be looked after this winter. Also read somewhere Russia is pulling high tension power lines across the border to supply the area. KatKan (talk) 15:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Many civilians are displaced. Russian FMS data report 180 K applied for refugee or temporary stay status, and 110 K already received it; while some 820 K total displaced Ukrainians reported to arrive to  Russia and stay the since conflict started (not all applying for a status). Around 500 per day new resettlement applications in Russia reported. Displaced to Ukraine estimate I have seen (UNHCR data, I recall) is some 300 K. Not clear how many civilians are still in Novorossia; total affected population was estimated somewhere at 3.5 mln, but this is probably in a broader area than currently held by Novorossia. --Resup (talk) 16:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

MIA
Rebels re-broadcast this message, This are photos of soldiers of 30 Brigade UAF, which disappeared after big losses near village Stepanovka (19-20 August). Mostly from 3 Batallion. Relatives are looking for them, here are their photos. We do not know how to help --Chingachgook (talk) 01:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Servicemen and their relatives accuse Kyev of concealing heavy casualties, mothers plan protest in September (video) --Chingachgook (talk) 01:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels post their regular updates on http://rusvesna.su/, most of it is available in English, there are many human cases, somebody just need to monitor human issues they put over there --Chingachgook (talk) 01:44, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Володимир Рубан [ UAF] is working on POW, MIA issues for a long time on the government side. May be time to exchange details of POW and MIA issues directly, it should be known to them how to go about those things, there will be lots of cases

The say, 3500 UAF fighters disappeared --Chingachgook (talk) 03:24, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

How Russian Soft Power Will Save us All From An Ugly Future
Daily Mail wants you to know there was a moment - an exact one and photographed - in which Russian sabotage cell was captured by Ukrainian secret service with plans and weapons to bring down a plane on Ukraine's Independence Day next week. They were already doing terrorist stuff in Kharkhiv, were totally run by the SBU, and were on Putin's order to blow up another plan over Ukraine, to prove they meant it the first time, or whatever. Stopped, luckily, by our level-headed partners in security there in Nulandistan.


 * Hmm let's see here. It looks a bit rough, but I don't see the faces. So I should be worrying about all prisoners now, as I don't know exactly who those captured are --Chingachgook (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * HAHAHAHA  Hilarious! the prisoners don't look worried (body language of course, can't see faces). The guys with the guns are not standing in a shooting position, what kind of guards are they? Kalashkinovs are fairly useless against aircraft. Are they even planes still flying apart from military?  all this from the same Daily Mail that brought us dead people's phones being answered after 5 days.KatKan (talk) 01:03, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay ... this date is important. It's said Poroshenko has no plans for a cease-fire, and no motive. His best bet will be a swift apparent victory by then (the 24th), to give a warm glow to the first part of the grinding and brutal occupation perhaps to come. Russian plans for the date are feared and being demonized. Seeing how late it's getting, or at least appears (late enough either way)

"Soft power" comes from hard power + smart power, and it can just leak away. So Putin should order military strikes and ongoing support - finally - no later than this date. that is, it should be ready to go any day. Preceded by very short warning to leave rather than die, powerful blows should be coordinated with federalist forces to push the fascits further out from Donetsk, Lugansk, and Horlivka, at least, then firm estaablishment of humanitarian corridor - no expansion, just enough to protect the core of the United People's Republics of Ukraine, to ensure its survival and leave the final borders up to talks. Only force will deter these unaccountable, genocidal, cyinical, deceptive, and thoroughly insane Fascist thugs to finally force a re-thinking, a chance for peace and negotiations - between human beings.

Putin can say stuff like "for months the New York-led "world community" has blamed us for supplying arms and fighters to the people of the East who rejected the takeover of their government by fascists now bent on genocide. ... as we sat by, tears in our eyes as Ukraine was plunged deeper into brutality and deceit with no end in sight ... the people of the east under-supported, cut off from water and shelled ... our people are already paying for what I have finally delivered ... this is what a Russian invasion and Russian support looks like - you hadn't seen it before. A genocide is obviously danger... we all said never again, we mean it.

Also, it's a favor to the whole world. Maybe freed from the need (via losing the ability) to push this thing, we can let ourselves look more clearly at all the events this year and sigh with relief - Putin stopped us from having to watch ourselves mindlessly push another avoidable genocide. --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

To have prisoners exchanged, first contacts to make appear to be:  Володимир Рубан [General-Colonel, UAF] (seriously working on this for a long time)    --Chingachgook (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

US-Russia unknown unknowns
I actually think that the main issue is that there are some unknown issues between Russia and USA, and not resolving those will be causing difficulties in various places. I do not understand what are those US-Russia issues. It seems to be more meaningful to worry less who is for what to blame, and focus instead on how to do something better --Chingachgook (talk) 03:19, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Apart from the "mine is bigger than yours" posturing, which is mostly for domestic consumption, there is the question of oil and gas riches. Billions at stake; for Russia it is a huge % of their exports, about half I think.
 * Total trade volume between USA and Russia is too low (around 16 bln). Especially US exports are low. . Wars may raise oil prices, and USA is (I think, still) net oil importer. There is no real economic benefit in "mine is bigger than yours" posturing, I would guess. --Resup (talk) 20:55, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, with good relations there may be a train service, Chukotka to Alaska Bering_Strait_crossing. About a century old idea now. --Resup (talk) 21:35, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Such issues may include the "Wolfovitz doctrine" (esp. p. 2, 3), which some say (still) exists, and commits the United States to maintaining its status as the sole Unipower, as highlighted in this anti-WW3 article by Paul Craig Roberts. While it is unknown whether there was Wolfovitz foreign policy doctrine at all (the declassified document is not a foreign policy manual), and if it was, whether it still applies. But practical actions so far appear uniformly consistent to such a "doctrine." Another thing is "Jennifer Psaki doctrine." There is no such doctrine at all, but when Russians hear  this name, they start to laugh already. The reason is what appears to be poorly informed, sometimes absurd, statements made by Ms. Psaki, having cult following in humor sections on Russian social networks. In the West, this sometimes goes as hashtag doctrine. Humor aside, what this does is it promotes standing of the "party of war" in Russia, as long as "party of peace" gets no carrot, and only arrogance and such 'hashtag nonsense'  in response    --Resup (talk) 14:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Russia pulled out of nuclear summit on nuclear security, according to Itar-Tass. They say to continue cooperation using other channels such as IAEA. This is not awfully bad, but still rather dim news. IAEA is said to have rather weak criteria which may be possible to 'circumvent' (did not look into specifics). So goodwill, cooperation is actually needed to solve well-known serious outstanding issues. They may use some marriage counseling, 'relationship chemistry' seems pretty bad. --Resup (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Doesn't help the chemistry that U.S. State Department (Again) Behaves At Kindergarten Level. - --CE (talk) 11:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

GRU Veteran Pushkarev says, in part: "USA is interested in direct conflict between Russia and Ukraine."--Resup (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Stephen Cohen, US academic, Veteran of 'Russian Studies, ' Russia Insider RT interview. (Another scholar:) America caused the Ukrainian crises, (himself): we are guilty as well as Russia. "Obama appears to be woefully misinformed about Russia, "we don't even know who advises  him", people like himself are not listened to. "This is a political issue which need correct leadership " (but due to politicking and other dysfunction that is not very likely). --Resup (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Kerry-Lavrov talks TASS (rus.), (On Syria-English) (On Ukraine-English). Apparently better 'chemistry,' but little actual change. Lavrov mostly reminds about fulfilling past agreements, in a slight change of tone also including constitutional reform agreed in Geneva format (that includes USA, unlike Minsk), in April. “Many other incidents are happening. We believe, it is necessary to finalise as soon as possible the separation line in order to control clearly observing of the ceasefire and the truce conditions,” Lavrov said. Regarding Syria, Russia is firmly for UN channel (which would allow bargaining on other things, + Asad in the picture); while USA does not want to take that route and wants to be the king-of-the-hill. Some talk on desirability to bridge positions, with zero actual movement. --Resup (talk) 07:05, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Gorbachev interview, Russia -West crisis Last leader of USSR urges Russia and the West to stop sanction war. ‘The World 25 Years after the Fall of the Berlin Wall - New Crisis, New Doubts, New Walls’ (Although Gorbachev has zero traction left in Russia, what he says here is not controversial and reflects widely shared feelings in Russia. He was applauded in the West when he was lifting their boat; now, will anybody pay attention? ) --Resup (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Responsibility for the stagnation in relations between Moscow and Washington is on the US side, and yet no prospects improve. This opinion was expressed to journalists by Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov. "In Beijing, the Russian President spoke with the President United States on a number of international issues, but to say that after that we have a new perspective, especially in terms of normalization of relations between Russia and the US, it would be sinning against the truth" - he said. "There is no momentum" - said the Deputy Foreign Minister, stressing that a  breakthrough did not happen. "Responsibility for the stagnation in our relationship is entirely on the US side," - said Ryabkov. Tass, 15 Nov --Resup (talk) 06:08, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

'Inside Obamas secret outreach to Russia' Bloomberg article on White house thorough policy review with Russia. Report ends with: "by choosing a middle ground between conciliation and confrontation -- not being generous enough to entice Russia's cooperation yet not being tough enough to stop Putin’s aggression in Eastern Europe -- Obama’s policy risks failing on both fronts". --Resup (talk) 01:53, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

An interesting article by Andrei Tsygankov, with grim assessment. Too long to translate, but a rough summary: The West is united in disliking and not understanding Russia, but not united in how to apply pressure. No change to that in the foreseeable future, unless somebody in the West can propose a new concept of interacting with Russia. "Russian World" or "Multipolar World" ideas too vague and impractical to change the world. Need well-functioning and economically strong Russia, which at present is not exactly the case. Proposed action is to try to keep working with Western Europe; with USA, does not look hopeful in the near future and may actually get worse (like US weapons provided to Ukraine). (Is there anything anybody can do about this picture as presented? -Not sure).--Resup (talk) 08:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Unite Mothers to Unite Nation
One idea - woman power, specifically Mother Power. There are already small groups of mothers demanding to know where there sons are. And it is so reasonable, nobody can refuse them.

Mothers want their sons back. Even if dead, they want them back. Or at least know. It is starting to come out how many thousands are dead, how many lies have been told about this. On top of it are all the missing civilians nobody can find.

Half the population is women. This is ONE subject where half the population all wants the same thing. It is something that unites them across all those other lines that others are trying to divide them by (colorado, nazi, north south east west etc). It makes them all equally human again.

The little groups who now stand and shout at the Generals, they could be organised into a national movement with oblast and town level chapters. So they can join, and write down who their son is, where he went, that last they know of him. This will help the mothers. It will also help identify the MIAs, the KIAs buried unmarked and nameless. This will also help the Government, whoever they will be in the end. They will be busy building roads and bridges, and won't have money for a big team to collect the facts. Half the population could do it for themselves. It is a big interest for them, they just need to get co-ordinated. KatKan (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a Committee of Soldiers Mothers in Russia, local committees, and a union of committees. Lately, they are not in an easy situation, and are not getting much positive press coverage in Russia. Russia has a traditional political landscape, and it is unlikely that Soldiers Mothers are in a position to dramatically change it--unless they can enlist Valentina Matviyenko for their cause.
 * Russian ministry of defense responded to a letter of a union of soldiers mothers member Valentina Melnikova. Out of 9 soldiers on her list, 8 have already contacted their relatives. Only one soldier cannot be found yet.

--Resup (talk) 13:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

UN
Russia-suggested statement calling for a ceasefire in Ukraine has been blocked at UN SC --Resup (talk) 13:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Luhansk republic, Igor Plotnitskii stated to RIA-Novosti: "Authorities of LNR confirm their readiness to let into or through republic's territory  international or Ukrainian humanitarian convoys under Red Cross auspices"--Resup (talk) 15:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

UN finally reacted to Poroshenko cutting state services in the East. From the latest report: " Since the tenuous ceasefire began, at least 1,357 fatalities were recorded. Government efforts to safeguard Ukraine’s territorial integrity and to restore law and order in the conflict zone had been accompanied by “arbitrary detention, enforced disappearances and ill-treatment of people suspected of separatism or terrorism.” Nonetheless, Ukraine has been in the process of elaborating a five-year human rights strategy due to be completed by 1 January 2015 – a “welcome” development, according to the OHCHR.

“The Government of Ukraine remains responsible for protecting the human rights of all Ukrainians, including the right to health, education and social security, in all its territory, including areas it does not fully control,” Mr. Zeid continued, as he urged all parties to bring the hostilities to a definitive halt. “I urge the Government to carefully consider the human rights impact of this decision.”--Resup (talk) 01:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Genocide?
Perhaps Democide is a better word, as Vera Graziadei offers as an alternate term in the excellent visual essay Ukrainian Genocide and its Cheerleaders. An excerpt, with a related image inset to the right here, and hers missing (go see the original):


 * Stage 2. SYMBOLIZATION – when combined with hatred, symbols are forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups:


 * East Ukrainians, who rose up against Russophobe post-coup government, were termed ‘separatists’ and once they started taking over governmental buildings (just like Maidaners did), they were re-termed ‘terrorists‘. Most common symbol used is an orange-and-black striped Colorado beetle (left), because it resembles the colors of the St. George ribbon (right) worn by Pro-Russians.


 * Stage 3. DEHUMANIZATION – one group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases, which should be ‘cleansed’ or ‘exterminated.’


 * a) Colorado bugs to be exterminated as ‘pests/parasites’ of Ukraine


 * Cheerleaders: CHANNEL 5 (owned by Poroshenko): ran insecticide ad (covert call for genocide/subliminal message that killing ‘Colorados’ would lead to prosperity of the country) which encourages to kill Colorado Beetles by fumigating them from a canister bearing black and red colours of Praviy Sector’s flag.


 * ...Stage 7. EXTERMINATION – it’s extermination to the killers, because they do not believe their victims to be fully human: Odessa Massacre, Luganks bombing, Mariupol killings, Slavyansk shelling.

--Caustic Logic (talk) 09:54, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

'Road of death' is a Geneva and Helsinki event. Road of death guys made a passing comment like "I do not even know how to describe it, it is not even a murder, how do they call it, genocide or something I guess". Well, in response to this comment, that thing clearly violated the war conventions and human rights, and some human right group should have this matter flagged. Rebels were wearing a military-style uniform (sufficient to distinguish them from the other side--and that's about all they were really supposed to do). "Combatants" and "civilians" in that case were clearly distinguished. Ambulance had a visible red cross on it, not much was left from the ambulance car. --Chingachgook (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Kiev has made a big deal the Russian weapons were used to kill the innocents here, as people start to notice Kiev has no motivation to cease firing. Lots of allegedly self-destructive behavior like that may be planned. I do hope it can be stopped, but it ain't starting to get stopped yet... --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Documentary: Donbas: Chronical of Genocide (Graphic, vulgar, brutal - 18+) One hour, 37 minutes. Lots of shelling victims, a fascinating interrogation, etc. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, there are some questionable aspects of that video, where it strays from straight documentation. At the end, it seems to claim all the junta leaders in Kiev are crypto-Jews, and gives the real last names all, even Yatseniuk. Is that one part dry humor, or totally serious? Not sure... --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's indeed very unfortunate and problematic for sharing it. But it doesn't make what's before it less remarkable. Watched it after your recommendation, heartbreaking. And I looked up some of the names they claim. On wikipedia level of research it seems they're right in true Nazi fashion that Timoshenko and Klitschko are "quarter jews", meaning one of their grandparents were jews (with the names given). --CE (talk) 11:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * A 1:32 we see Bogdan Boutkevitch, who is sign-posted as a 'religious Jew' but what he says is a classic Nazi's Lebensraum idea, and has nothing at all to do with Judaism. What we see in the end, is already described above, and is unfortunate and pointless. Unfortunately, such lowly  nonsense (of Protocols Elders of Zion caliber, a historic fake), is still in use in some mass media. Indeed, it does not deny the preceding documentary. (+ if all 1/2 and 1/4 are discounted, there may be too few left,-- even David Beckham, a knighted footballer, is out).  --Resup (talk) 02:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Yatseniuk's Subhuman Comment
This is only one point in a broader pattern of dehumanization, but one that gets cited for its prominence at least. On June 17, then-the Ukrainian embassy in the United States published part of a statement by then-PM Arseniy Yatseniuk where he repeated the overriding opinion in Kiev that pro-Russian separatists are "subhumans." That's not at the link, of course; Speaking of soldier recently killed in the invasion of the east, he said "They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly" who, he said, were "facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them inhumans." But as numerous screen-grabs available around show (Moon of Alabama's), it did say subhumans before. It should have, grammatically - that's a known noun that fits. Inhuman, an adjective, was inserted as a made-up plural noun. Spellcheck doesn't like it.

The implication of "inhuman" is supposed to be different and less Nazi-evocative than what he wrote, or they (embassy staff?) wouldn't have changed it. Inhuman simply means not human, not menschen - maybe unter, maybe uber, or just off to the side. Usually inhuman is a bad thing (lacking in the nobler human traits like mercy - though inhumane is made just for that). But here, maybe he means super-human aliens, or ethereal ghosts, or something? The grammar was never fixed - how to even read this? those threatening to kill are invaders (Russians, alleged) "and sponsored by them inhumans." Unless it means to say "those inhumans," unspecified, who sponsored the invaders ... it probably should read "(Russian) invaders and inhumans sponsored by them." The other, sponsored, party is Ukrainian federalists.

At least, the armed portion of those aren't even human, but he's less clear on the rest of the populace. By the rules, the children of these armed men (and women sometimes) can only be half-human at best, and half or more ... not. As noted, the Colorado Beetle is widely considered clever and apt. That's definitely subhuman. And they're to be wiped out, cleansed, like a filth or a vermin: "we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them" - the armed rebels and/or invaders who resisted Kiev's invasion, "and then by cleaning our land from the evil."

The "evil" being ... hm, good question? This is after they've killed those who killed their heros. What else is there to call "the evil?" It seems related to the inhumans, as if it spawned them. Any guesses? --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe Yats was really talking in German, saying Untermenschen with a hitleresque rolling R ... an then someone also thinking in German changed subhuman to inhuman, because what would literally translate to inhuman is the German word Unmensch, which my dictionary translates as "barbarian, brute, fiend" and would be more "politically correct" in denouncing those dreaded "terrorists" in the East. --CE (talk) 11:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, it sounds like s multiple-translation issue. He surely still means sub-human,like he said before. All this denigrating name calling must stop. Anyone who talks like that is not qualified to be in charge of a country. And it is not surprising the separatists would rather fight to the death than give up to people who promise to exterminate them. Poroshenko  has promised to kill 100 for every one of his that died, too, a nice round Nazi reprisal number. KatKan (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Poroshenko's "Their Children" Speech
Poroshenko's real view, as stated at a meeting in Odessa Oct 23 - must have been an electioneering speech -- is "our children will have schools, their will hide in basements" The video only surfaced this week. KatKan (talk) 13:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is his election speech in Odessa opera theater, 23 October. I have seen a small extract, about children in basement, but did not know immediately it was from Odessa. Regarding this small piece, the real meaning is that we in Kiev are going to do well, and if we do, than we will not have to do that war thing (i.e. shell, cluster-bomb, kill, rape, and so on). Internet interpretation seem to take the view that putting children in the basement is the main promise. With the rest of the speech, I have an idea of the gist of it, energetically rallying support basically, saying that Odessa is close to European model to begin with in particular (that part said in Russian, the rest in Ukrainian). If we need to know more, it will help to have it as a text, otherwise translating 35 minutes speech in Ukrainian is too difficult. I doubt there are major discoveries in that election speech. The idea that those regions are basically gone and so moneys can be saved is wide-spread, it is not just Poroshenko. Yatseniuk proposed a plan that social payments are not made 'as long as there are those impostors there," but "we will send electricity and gas so that they will not freeze," "and later if they come back to us, we will pay what was past-due minus the bills."  In a model when Novorossia remains part of Ukraine, proposal is indeed genocidal. But it looks more like de-facto accepting independence   --Resup (talk) 16:29, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Odessa speech, as cited, full video from Odessa Crisis Media Center. As for fuller transcript, for now we have Eric Zuesse at Global Research who got the date wrong, but provides:
 * “We will have our jobs. They will not. We will have our pensions. They will not. We will have care for children, for people, and retirees. They will not. Our children will go to schools and kindergartens. Theirs will hole up in basements [from our bombs]. Because they are not able to do anything. This is exactly how we will win this war! [I.e., we will starve and terrorize them into submission.]” (in brackets added by the author but seems pretty accurate) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Ukrael
I just thought of that, maybe someone else did. Not sure what heading it fits under to mention... But Ukrael seems an apt name for the new Ukraine acting like the Israel of the Russian front. For consideration. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * What's happening in Ukraine is very different from the Middle East. Most of eastern Ukraine is really not very much different from Russia. There is some tension but not close to Middle Eastern levels. It is not at the existential level as it is for Israel. And in Ukraine, the opponent is not aiming at destroying Ukraine. War tactics, as well as weapons, are very different. Really Jewish places used to be Odessa, always a special free city, and nowadays culturally similar to what can be seen on the Brighton Beach, New York. Also, historically, Lviv had major Jewish presence before WW2; nowadays, not that much, apart from memories. As for the leaders, what matters are policies, not ethnicities.

Same ethnicities are present on both sides of the conflict. But policy-wise, I do not see anything in common, really, between Ukraine and Israel. --Resup (talk) 00:14, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Good points. The comparison breaks down pretty easily. But on the level of being able to do anything and keep enjoying Western support anyway, it's got some relevance. Eh, it'll take off or not. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Right Sector
Via Moon of Alabama:

''The Right Sektor is just storming the parliament in Kiev. They demand the head of the interior minister who's troops killed their comrade. Live video here


 * http://www.ustream.tv/channel/kutiepov13

Ruban's Third Force

 * (moved from Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17)

Finally cracked? The third side to blame is found Russian news Ukraine-youtube --Chingachgook (talk) 10:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting, thanks. He speaks of a "third force" that's perplexed both Kiev and the separatists, and makes it almost sound like they're working together to find out who it is. I'm reminded of Arsan Avakov's "Third Force" theory for the Maidan snipers. At first, left vague and intriguing, maybe CIA? No, he meant Russians. Here, he gives a direction, maybe. As Yandex renders it: "He also said that the fighting involved foreign mercenaries. "And the Ukrainian and Luhansk and Donetsk. Well, now, what to call it, and that Poland is at war with us, and Sweden?", - asked the General reserve." So far, Kiev has happily accepted these crimes and blamed Russians or the "terrorists." I do hope some minds are trying to break that link, however - from within and beneath, maybe they can make these psychos into the third - and crushed - force they should be. Otherwise, by adoption and encouragement and more, they're in family "B" - Kiev (and all points West). --Caustic Logic (talk) 11:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


 * General-Colonel Володимир Рубан is a decent UAF guy who works on prisoners exchange for a long time. Third force is here left unspecified, no mentioning of Russians, some (not too strong) hint it can be (non-Russian) foreigners. Well, non-Russian foreigners were  alleged, well in the past, to be involved in the conflict. He is not saying this is the case here. He says that there is some yet to be found force which works for some bad and unknown purpose. Well, I don't know what on hell is going on, and how on hell it ended here, that's for sure.   --Chingachgook (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Володимир Рубан = Volodomyr/Vladimir Ruban - fixed "decent" - descent guy in AF terms suggests he can only bring planes back down :) --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Today a German newspaper published a translation of the full interview. Really fascinating. Hilarious how the guy treats the propagandized journalist. That's where the remark with being at war with Sweden and Poland came from. Because the interviewer kind of implied that they are at war with Russia and Ruban replied that just because there are Russian mercs and "advisers" involved doesn't make that follow, just like with Poland and Sweden. As to the "third force", he's totally neutral but from the context of the full interview it seems like he means "non-russians", as Chingachgook said. Who hit the Technical Academy with mortars and "blame things like that on one or the other side". Blame. How can that force blame it on someone without a powerful media? ;o) Anyway, interesting guy. Doesn't belong on this page, though, but I have moved around enough for today. --CE (talk) 18:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * tnx 4 moving, CL. Here's an English translation of the whole thing, just published by Slavyangrad. What I translated as "blame" from the German version is here "makes it look like" one or the other side. --CE (talk) 14:17, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, unknowns flag painters attacked in Moscow. (No injuries or deaths alleged).

Satellite photos
Something to investigate:
 * NATO’s Russian troop build-up satellite images ‘show 2013 drills’ – April 10, 2014

Another: Regarding images of Russia shelling across the border - this guy says one image anyway (claiming to prove a lack of Ukrainian forces in a certain area?) is taken right from some fake satellite imagery used in a video game. (Or, was it not really fake but just stock Ukrainian imagery? In context, that would be fake too) (Or, is this one of those modern games where users can insert their own images/can it be shown to be there prior to the recent use by Kiev?( (or, is Parubiy a known player of this game? Etc.) The compared images do seem to bear out the total image match, whatever it means. Worth checking into. Someone else published the info first - on-screen text would help track down who, where, how. --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * BUSTED! Kiev's U.S. 'Satellite Images' of Ukraine Are From A 'Video Game'! (Youtube "video")


 * I have retweeted on July 25 a tweet containing the original video, a rather failed attempt to match it to Russian satellite data and the rather plausible debunk claiming the factory shown is some generic piece of infrastructure from a simulator. It's supposed to show the BUK launch. --CE (talk) 12:40, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay - that's the same generic image/texture, but it's not clear from that Kiev forge this. It's ridiculous. It's "no comment," no description, posted July 24 by "Lincoln Staarka" AJSR says Kiev/US did forge this, but I need to see them promoting it before I believe they did (saved anyway, pending...). Generic texture or not, that's so obviously fake! A still image panned over ("Ken Burns effect") with a smoke trail animation - as if satellite just hover and pan over an area like a surveillance camera. Did they really? The other guy, again. made it sound like a different later situation, not the Buk launch, and a still image with no stupid animated smoke trail, I thought...) --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * (Quick) Checking Youtube for any posting of this fake video in support of either story yields nothing. Ukrainian or English, the cross-border shelling images are different, and I see no videos claiming to be satellite footage of the MH17 launch. I see nothing yet against calling this a hoax. --Caustic Logic (talk) 13:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, when I've seen it the YT video had a description. I think ASJB's claim is of "double fakery" or how do you call it, reverse psychology or so? In the second tweet trying the match there is a comment with a link that goes to what might be the original upload, and I think the description is the same the youtube video had. "Banderas got caught this time exactly." etc. And AJSB thinks it's just produced to keep the Buk myth alive. Or something. Was in a hurry when I posted the three tweets and now see that your video treats the material in a different context. Apparently BS-recycling... btw, as to shelling the border - the OSCE observers observed that on Sunday ... from Ukraine to Russia. *grin* --CE (talk) 17:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's closer. That's the video, also July 25, title translates "Ogoni ZRK 'Buk' by airplane, Ukraine streamrip.17.07.mp4" Airplane, not satellite? Description:
 * Foreign weather satellite recorded the moment of the complex "Beech" in the infrared. Bandera caught this time specifically. White field, because shooting is done in the thermal range and, accordingly, dark soil is strongly heated. For this reason, the cooling is fast disappearing from the rocket trail. No need to argue, than survey was conducted, it is possible to land remote sensing satellite or high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft - it does not matter now and early to reveal sources. Video is published to those who need to know - control is maintained, videos - there. Perezalivat, because the original is permanently removed, it is also reuploaded.

Comments: skeptical to dismissive - the word fake appears a few times. --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

ATO Toll
There have been various reports from each side about casualty figures in Kiev's "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO).
 * UN OHCHR gives a new figure to Human Rights Investigations: Casualties in east Ukraine Aug 14
 * Cécile Pouilly, a spokesperson of the OHCHR has confirmed to HRI that: - At least 2,086 people have been killed and at least 4,953 wounded in the fighting in east Ukraine since mid-April until 10 August. 
 * In her statement to Reuters, Cécile Pouilly is quoted as saying the figures given are “very conservative.” --Caustic Logic (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

USA positions

 * John McCain. (May require longer response, a brief now)

Nov 07 2014 Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today released the following statement following reports that Russia has violated its ceasefire agreement and again supplied pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine with military equipment and arms:

“No one should be surprised by reports today that large columns of Russian tanks, artillery, and military personnel have moved back into eastern Ukraine. If true, this would be the latest and most conclusive reason to believe that the ceasefire agreement is effectively dead".
 * (Reports). ='Unable to confirm' from Nato and UN; not confirmed by Russia. (Military personnel:) = locals, volunteers, and war vets. ('Trucks do not drive themselves'): correct. (If true):  if.

“The United States and Europe need to stop assuming that the provision of lethal military assistance to Ukraine would provoke President Putin into further aggression. What is most provocative to Putin is U.S. and European unwillingness to take these steps, and the perception of weakness it fosters".
 * It's not about Putin. Strelkov; Bezler; Mozgovoi (=East); Ruban, (+ V. Moskal? + who?)  (=West).  No quarrel among those on the list. (Perception of weakness is a self-perception).

“If confirmed, today's reported Russian re-invasion of Ukraine should lead to an immediate escalation of U.S. and E.U. sanctions. More importantly, we must also provide our Ukrainian partners with the military capabilities to defend their sovereign territory and resist Putin's aggression. If we do not, Putin will continue trying to devour more and more of Ukraine for his new Russian empire."
 * It's not an Empire, and it is not his. Kievan Rus,' -- Russia, Ukraine, Belarus the descendants,-- is 11 centuries old; Ukraine Union with Russia is by Bogdan Khmelnitskii (on Pereeslav Rada in 1654). The New Empire is British; but over there, that Empire is just not going to work.  --Resup (talk) 02:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Putin told them plainly enough, weeks ago, if they set foot in the place he is entitled to as well (more so actually). This is why they are so nervous about troops on HIS OWN SIDE of the fence. NAF went to a lot of trouble to get/make very Russian looking trucks, ditto uniforms, parade them all over to be photographed, parked on main square on election day -- presto no disturbances for the election. Kiev is shit scared. Or if NATO lends them a plane, Putin is entitled to lend them more BUKs. In fact about a week ago there was what seemed to be an SU-25 in the air. NAFs showed off 2 S 300 air defense systems. No more SU-25s seen since. A lot of the public arguing among NR commanders etc is (a) freedom of speech and (b) encouraged publicly to make them look confused. But they know exactly what they're doing ,their lives literally depend on it. US is snarling but preparing to cut its losses. KatKan (talk) 12:53, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

“President Putin’s renewed aggression
 * John McCain
 * (???) What this "aggression" consists of, and where is its evidence?

in Ukraine demands more than additional empty rhetoric and threats of lowest-common-denominator sanctions. That has been the extent of the world’s response to Putin’s slow-motion dismemberment of Ukraine,
 * dismemberment which was started on Maidan, December 2013-February 2014, and not exactly in the World's response to Putin

and it has consistently failed to deter new acts of aggression. Indeed, it has invited this aggression by creating a perception of U.S. and European disinterest and weakness. That is what is truly provocative to Putin.

“The Obama Administration’s policy in Ukraine effectively amounts to an arms embargo on victims of aggression. This is contrary to both our national interests
 * Which are --what? Since "our" does not include the current administration,- including the Commander in Chief,- "our" means --what?

and our long-standing ideals of supporting free peoples in their struggle against subjugation.
 * Such struggle occur in a number of places, including LPR and DPR in Donbas. They ARE PEOPLE, not Putin's agents (nor oligarchs or puppets) !!! (Why not to go THERE and check, not just repeat, and feed, the mass media hysteria?

The United States and the European Union must provide Ukraine with the arms and related military and intelligence support that its leaders have consistently sought and desperately need.

“No one should see Ukraine’s cause as hopeless. Providing Ukrainians
 * This is a civil war, and those Ukrainians are on both sides

with the ability to defend themselves would impose a far greater cost on Putin than he has paid thus far.
 * This "cost" = dead Ukrainians? (Which is not too different/close enough to dead Russians?)

If U.S. and E.U. leaders continue to fail to understand that, Putin’s conquest of Ukraine will only grind on and may possibly spread to Moldova and the Baltics.”
 * How is sending weapons to Ukraine going to prevent (and not, for example, increase) this perceived danger??? Baltics is in Nato by the way. --Resup (talk) 18:10, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel handed in his resignation, to stay until replacement is found --Resup (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

"Non-lethal" lethal weapons.
US delivers three counter-mortar radar systems to Ukraine "The US military delivered three lightweight, counter-mortar radar systems to Ukrainian armed forces on November 20, Pentagon spokesman Army Col. Steve Warren said. The radar systems are the first few of 20 that Washington plans to send to Ukraine during the next several weeks. In mid-December, US military instructors plan to start training Ukrainian armed forces. “The radar systems see incoming mortar fire and quickly calculate the point of origin of a mortar round fired by the enemy, and allows friendly forces to react appropriately,” Warren said. According to the Pentagon spokesman, the Ukrainian armed forces will determine how, where and when they will use the systems. “It’s also up to the Ukrainians if they attach these radar [systems] to a fire-direction system, which will allow for counter battery fires, or if they use them independently and react with ground forces,” he said. The radar systems are part of the $118 million aid package for this year in equipment and training that the US has committed to assisting Ukraine’s troops". So, after coordinates of Novorossia firing positions are obtained, they can be suppressed by aiming/correcting UAF artillery fire. This makes the so-called non-lethal system extremely lethal. This may lead to very serious and dangerous escalation of the conflict. For example, Novorossia may receive help correcting their own fire. Or, required fire may be done from outside Novorossia using missiles. It will be in Russia's interest to launch a very strong diplomatic demarche  for this to stop, or it may lead to major escalation, not necessarily ending in Ukraine.   --Resup (talk) 18:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Those are light-weight anti-mortars, there are several popular varieties out there such as AN/TPQ -48 AN/TPQ -49 AN/TPQ -36, AN/TPQ -37 or similar. They are presumably active radars? ( Such "non-lethal" lethal shipments, even if not practical on the ground, may start an arms race). --Resup (talk) 18:51, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Lethal weapons
Ukraine is said to have a shopping list of first priority lethal items; on a scale consistent with a continued ATO operation, not with a ceasefire. It is said to include  400 sniper-rifles, 2,000 assault-rifles, 720 hand-held grenade launchers, 225 mortars with more than 70,000 mines, 150 stingers, 420 antitank missiles, 20000 land mines, 280 armored personnel carriers, 1300 Hummers, and so on.

At this time, according to Pentagon spokesman Rear Admiral John Kirby, answering journalists' questions about the upcoming visit to Kiev of Allied Commander of NATO in Europe, General Philip Bridlav, "We continue to study the questions of Ukraine on arms, but right now is still focused on non-lethal aid" he is quoted to say in the edition of The Hill. He stressed that "nothing has changed with regard to non-lethal assistance that the United States continues to supply to the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine." (rusvesna) --Resup (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine Rapid Trident 2014: Learning to use Javelin.
 * May be not in Ukraine: a commenter says Vilseck, Germany 23 September 2014. Indeed, background does not look like Yavorskii military training ground --Resup (talk) 07:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Washington Times, 21 January Russian military forces are crossing into eastern Ukraine in larger numbers, according to Phillip A. Karber, a Georgetown University professor currently on a fact-finding tour of the region. “Things are really heating up — five Russian armored task forces crossed the border in last 60 hours, a force of about 75 main battle tanks, 100 infantry fighting vehicles, 100 other armored vehicles and fifty artillery systems,” said Mr. Karber, also head of the Potomac Foundation. Mr. Karber also spent time with a unit of Ukrainian military volunteers called Dnepr-1, after the popular Dnepropetrovsk professional soccer team. Two-thirds of Dnepr-1’s staff are civilians, mostly women". What is this guy smoking in Dnepropetrovsk with those civilians? Who paid his ticket? --Resup (talk) 07:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

U.S. Taking a Fresh Look at Arming Ukraine’s Forces, Officials Say--Resup (talk) 02:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

US Congress
This reference seem to give a short and readable explanation of recent congress bill called Ukraine Freedom Support Act of 2014. Those things are OK as 'defensive':  anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, crew weapons and ammunition, counter-artillery radars to identify and target artillery batteries, fire control, range finder, and optical and guidance and control equipment, tactical troop-operated surveillance drones, and secure command and communications equipment. Not signed into law, but essentially identical versions passed both chambers of the Congress --Resup (talk) 06:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Was signed into law on 18.12.14--Resup (talk) 06:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually sending advanced AT weapons may lead to arms race, --they are not very expensive, and Russia have such sort of things as well; with enough of them around, can create problems in using tanks, and not only Russian-designed tanks, and not just in Ukraine. While it will not really sort things out in Ukraine. If  tanks  are easily knocked off, there will be stalemate with them both using heavy artillery and MLRS to break anything standing into small bits, and this can go on without ever ending.  --Resup (talk) 06:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Russian Disputes
Strelkov-Starikov boxing match styled TV debate  showed a clash of two versions of patriotic Russian position. Strelkov feels for a long time that Russia should have played larger role and involved earlier and more directly. He thinks that military conflict is unavoidable, and earlier and larger involvement would have given big, possibly game changing advantage. Position of Nikolai Starikov, right leaning politician, writer,  and first TV channel in St Petersburg  commercial director, is basically that what Russia does is exactly the right mix. There is a lot of background involved and personalities issues apparent, but this is outside of scope of what we do here, and the above is the only question I could detect in the whole 1.5 hour undertaking. In the debate, both competitors stated their positions with match clock running. Nothing really was resolved, and neither of the positions moved or developed. Both agree that Russian World is threatened, and view USA as the most serious threat. In their view, USA may be preparing Russian Maidan, which will destroy Russia similarly to what we can see in Ukraine. Both view Russians and Ukrainians as essentially one nation.

There is also a third position (such people would be branded as 5th column by either of the two above), which is basically that Russia should have let it be and not get herself involved. That position is shared by some proportion of political spectrum in Ukraine. Those Russains are pro-Western to various degree, and include parts of intelligentsia and those who became well-off doing business with the West. Based on government support polls, there would be some 12-20 % in this category. Those views are rarely presented in official Russian press. There is next to nothing in English, or it would look like hardly distinguishable from Western MSM. Those people were in opposition to the government prior to Ukraine events. It is not good time for this category at present as their views may be criticized as unpatriotic.
 * Poll results after the debate 53% Strelkov, 26% Starikov,  21% a draw. --Resup (talk) 08:34, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Slavyansk: Something coming up?

 * ''Moved to Talk:Slavyansk

GRAD fire from Russia?

 * ''Moved to GRAD fire from Russia?

Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

 * ''Moved to Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

Donetsk

 * Ukraine Rocket Attack Leads to Mass Jail Breakout AP, August 11
 * Rockets slammed into a high-security prison Monday in the rebel-held city of Donetsk, igniting a riot that allowed more than 100 prisoners to flee, authorities in eastern Ukraine said.


 * Donetsk city council spokesman Maxim Rovinsky said a direct rocket hit killed at least one inmate and left three others severely wounded. In the chaos, he said 106 prisoners escaped, included some jailed for murder, robbery and rape.

...
 * The prison break became possible after a substation providing the building with electricity was damaged, disabling the facility's alarm system.


 * "Extremely dangerous prisoners are now free. It is hard to know the extent of threat this poses to the city, which is flooded with weapons," Rovinsky said.

Will Kiev proudly claim it freed political prisoners, or will it blame "Russians" for re-infecting Donetsk with its own most vile criminals? --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Claims the FSB plans to assassinate Donetsk Peoples' Republic leaders as soon as their usefulness is through (ie when Kiev's forces win) --Caustic Logic (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * http://20committee.com/2014/08/07/latest-ukrainian-intelligence-news/


 * Horlivka, near Donetsk, horrible video: August 14. (copy successfully saved) A civilian car is shown after being his on a city street by what might be SU-25 cannon fire, or some such. Inside, three dead people. A middle-aged man, driving, apparently had his throat shot out. Likely wife in the back seat, back of head blown away. Likely teenage/young adult daughter, also dead. Lots of blood under the car too - someone killed massively in the open, or maybe from another car, since removed. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Rebels: [http://rusvesna.su/news/1409855991 3-4 September, Donetsk, Enakievo, Makeevka were shelled. ]( Photo, Video provided by rebels). --Resup (talk) 23:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Rebels claim: UAF for the first time used multiple rocket launcher "Smerch" (means "hurricane/tornado") hitting Petrovsky district of Donetsk The last three days on residential areas and civilian houses were shelled, by what appears to be multiple launch rocket system "Smerch". Rebels: "This multiple rocket launcher can fire up to 100 kilometers and carries very serious damage. Rockets are cassette-type missiles and brought serious damage in an area of only one volley was completely destroyed 21 houses. Fortunately, there were no dead. Light shrapnel wounded four civilians who received medical treatment. As the head of the district police office, a large number of victims are avoided only thanks to the fact that the area is constantly under fire, and most of the inhabitants were forced to leave their homes." --Resup (talk) 23:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

This rebel video shows 9M79M missile fragment, OTR-21 Tochka U short rane ballistic missile, operating range 100 km. Charge weight is around 450 kg (i.e " a lot"). Date and place of the recording is unclear. --Resup (talk) 01:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Donetsk airport
The Ukies are shelling the airport with WHITE PHOSPHOR and supposedly attacking also with tanks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLTaYD--amw#t=47 Four NR wounded 1 KIA so far. Must be pallets of gold down there they don't want to give up?? I don't get this at all, they've allegedly signed a border zone according to which airport belongs to NR, so what the hell are they doing fighting to hold it? just to kill a few more? KatKan (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

At least on Odessa Channel 1, recently, ukr. op. "repelled all attacks of terrorists." Apparently it needs to stay like that on television until election day. Few guys killed with white phosphorus, what a biggie (=sarcasm=).--Resup (talk) 20:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Intense fighting for the new terminal building (lost count for which time now). UAF 'kiborgs' are told to leave or else. Opolchenie (Motorola) controls the first floor. It is said that UAF are massively shelling Donetsk. (As I understand, at the talks opolchenie getting the airport is stuck). May come back to the usual story, resumed shelling once terminal changes hands, and the whole old mess back on. The airport tower was destroyed (photo). (Fighting is really bad, 'Shmels' used, no more kiborging around). The latest is, according to "Vostok" (Khodakovsky) headquarters, that airport is fully controlled by opolchenie. --Resup (talk) 14:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC) " Apparently one use of the tower was as a spotting point, to correct the shelling onto the city. Plus the deal with rotation and food was that they just sit there and not shoot; in fact they twice tried to smuggle in armaments with the food. No big surprise that they are lying promise-breaklng rat finks but they're not going to be allowed to get away with it anymore. OSCE has just issued a statement asking everyone at the airport to exercise maximum restraint. KatKan (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Vostok report was too optimistic, and fighting continued after that. Finally, a journo reports from the top floor of the new terminal. Opolchenie controls floor 1,4,while some UAF remains on floors 2 and 3. Kiborgs were allowed to leave to save lives, according to Pushilin. --Resup (talk) 18:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

strelkov_info: "Poroshenko advisor Yuri Biryukov said that his boss ordered in whatever was to recapture lost ground in the Donetsk airport, and fresh troops were sent there. This information was confirmed by a radio intercept. In particular, it became known that Ukrainian Airborne troops are moved towards Peski. In addition there is information that commanders of the Ukrainian forces have received from the junta instructions to conduct a hurricane fire on Donetsk and Makeyevka, regardless of losses among the civilian population. " --Resup (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Updates. UAF tank attack on the airport is repelled. Motorola is at the airport. Rumors that he was killed were denied. He appeared on radio intercept, correcting fire and using strong language. From commentaries, Strelkov on Strelkov-info sounded critical that best soldiers are assigned, and maybe wounded or killed, for this well-televised battle. Ukrainian leadership and Right Sector both heavily invested  in creating Kiborg legend, and are trying hard to create an impression that airport is still theirs, while in the meantime trying to reverse the situation. UAF casualties may be up to 100; opolchenie also has casualties, exact count was not yet provided. --Resup (talk) 06:10, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

To finish battle for the airport, they really need to prevent Ukraine firing at it and Donetsk from nearby UAF artillery positions such as Peski. Otherwise it may keep changing hands. They might be working on that problem, we will see. --Resup (talk) 06:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Yesterday attack repelled, but Ukraine seems determined to retake it to keep kiborgs on TVs. Heavy weapons fighting in and around airport. Ukraine shells airport from Peski and Avdeevka, opolchenie fires back. Petrosvskii warns (1 month ago already) that UAF started on its plan of retaking Donetsk, which includes massive attack using attack planes (in use today), Tochka U, intelligence and sabotage groups. TV address from citizens of Donetsk thanking Ukraine is prepared already. Latest is, 6 attacks of UAF were repelled at the airport. Opolchenie is said to start counter-attack on Peski, fighting is near Ukrainian positions there. --Resup (talk) 18:09, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Airport is retaken, kiborgs who have not left are taken prisoners or dead, Peski mostly controlled by opolchenie, and Avdeevka is in progress. Despite all that, Ukraine does NOT leave attempts to retake the Airport. 3 attacks were repelled tonight, 7 pieces of equipment (vehicles/tanks) and 2 artillery pieces destroyed, and 50 Ukrainian soldiers are WIA/KIA. --Resup (talk) 17:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Lugansk

 * Russia commands to destroy the city of Lugansk Ukraine@War - decides an increase in random shelling of residential areas in Lugansk is by Russians, and increasingly "lurid" videos of the dead suggest "Russia is going to create a massacre in Lugansk" with shelling, right until the LPR defenses are worn down and the people can be "liberated from the Russian terror," like in happy Slavyansk. A tweet is cited claiming "From Gubarev's own website! "Don't pass up any opportunity to engage in some atrocity that can be blamed on the junta's fighters."." Wow, a tweet citing a guy's own website, can't be any flaws in that smoking gun admission. --Caustic Logic (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Occupied Lugansk
Ukie is playing games. "..In #Lugansk region, #Ukraine army took down high voltage lines and removed them completely. Rebel engineers now installing new cables..." according to TruthFromUkraine who seems to be on the spot, certainly has some good info. KatKan (talk) 19:15, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * This also happens in the West, said to be for the purpose of getting 'a fistful of $ euros $' on metal recycling, especially when something 'too big to fail' is about to;-- but may be it was actually ukr. op. to blame? (=horror). But in Luhansk, it may be for reasons of conflict, e.g. to show how nice it is on western side and how corrupt they are further East. --Resup (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Story says Ukraine Army took it. Doesn't mean it wasn't for the scrap value. Actually it was Aidar working that area. Lugansk power station supplies into the West, too, so may have been trying to deprive Donbass areas to leave more power for the occupied parts. More towards Donetsk there's a power station in occupied territory that partly serves Donbass. Sensible people would make a deal to share. Otherwise, they could split them. so each fully controls and consumes the one that is on their territory. NR won't run sort, anyhow, as Russia also "invaded" with a few new towers and supply from the Russian side. Main problem at moment is getting the damaged cabling between towns and inside towns fixed, as it is not safe to turn on any power while that might be creating live wires somewhere.KatKan (talk) 11:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Kharkov
Rusvesna correspondent Avas: Turchinov stopped in Kharkov on his way to Donbas. Preparations are made to suppress separatism. Checkpoints are created around the city; National Guard and police guard 42 strategic objects. SBU of Kharkov "cleaned up" NGO "Exodus." Its leader Oleg Novikov was arrested and accused of involvement in terrorism. Report goes on to say that Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine Avakov, without waiting for the results of the investigation, has said that Oleg is facing a prospect of a long prison term. --Resup (talk) 14:46, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

African mercenaries?
It may be a pure coincidence, but many of the narratives we have heard in Libya and Syria are popping up. Now we even have African mercenaries! Or African-American to be more exact. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "foreigners fighting" narratives are always based on truth. {The numbers may be exaggerated). Any country that has had some minorities persecuted has had members of those flee to live somewhere else. When an insurgency or civil war occurs, in which his group is involved, some may decide to return and help out. In some cases children born and brought up in that other country have been taught to hate/want revenge, to the extent that they will go to fight. This is normal. But the assumption that a black face means African American indicates a total ignorance about Africa and the presence of large numbers of dark skinned people in other countries. What idiots!!! KatKan (talk) 23:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine
It is reported that Ukraine aerospace industry is not doing great, selling services for old planes and things of that sort. While Russians attracted considerably more attention in China.

Ukrainian Motor Sich used to be a principle supplier of aircraft, gas-turbine engines of Russia. Because of hostilities, this is essentially stopped. But there are plans to resume it in Belarus, and possibly do a joint venture with Russia that way.

Why not to just stop this damn stupid war, which is a total waste, and in which these two nations both going to loose (to the West, or to Chinese, or to whoever else), and do some technology collaboration properly??? --Resup (talk) 01:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Kharkiv, Malyshev factory (heavy equipment, tanks Well, they were together as Uralvagonzavod during WW2, so them now being at war is just absurd. (Hey, how about instead some chocolate plants fighting)? --Resup (talk) 02:09, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

UAF unit at one particular location received cartridge supply manufactured in 1963 and past expiration date. Primer cap works, but still no discharge. The unit use strong language and social networks to  attract attention to the problem (OK, if there are some substandard Grads around, we know which side is more likely to use those...) --Resup (talk) 00:37, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Slovo o Polku Igoreve (Kievan Rus')
" Не лепо ли ны бяшетъ, братие,

начяти старыми словесы

трудныхъ повестий о пълку Игореве,

Игоря Святъславлича?

Slovo o Polku, Author unknown, Around 1185 c.e., Kievan Rus'

Well you unknown pointless bad force, may the force NOT be with you --Chingachgook (talk) 05:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

And ... ??? --Caustic Logic (talk) 12:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Released. Roger. Released. Roger. Released. Roger.

--Chingachgook (talk) 11:03, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Executing prisoners?
I have read multiple stories from the Novorossiyan side of prisoners being executed by Praviy Sector Battalions and also of eyes being gouged out. This is the time I come across a similar story from the Ukrainian side. We must however remember the First Rule of Massacre Investigations: Whoever has the evidence has the burden of proof!
 * Tortured by Kremlin-backed militants – Halya Coynash, Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group, 15.09.14
 * ''Nine bodies, probably Ukrainian soldiers, with signs of torture have been brought to the Zaporizhya morgue. A local source who wanted to remain anonymous has told Radio Svoboda the men had been taken prisoner by the Kremlin-backed militants in Donbas.  He provided over 100 photos to back the claims of torture.
 * ''The source said that at least three of the men had been hanged, and almost all had their eyes gauged out. Many had had their limbs and knees shot out, with 9 mm. bullets probably from a Makarov pistol. There were also knife wounds.

What makes the source believe they were probably Ukrainian soldiers? The fact that they were delivered to the same morgue? It only shows Ukrainian had possession of the bodies. What chain of events could have brought the bodies of captives held by NAF to this UA morgue? The time was in early September. It was a time of steady NAF progress. Ukraine forces did not just take over a NAF headquarters with a large POW prison with a dungeon full of executed bodies, or did they? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Amnesty published something on this yesterday. Please link here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC) ... Here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Document - Ukraine: Summary killings during the conflict in eastern Ukraine – Amnesty International, 20 October 2014
 * ''One of the victims, a man possibly in his thirties, lay face up on the floor in a green camouflage uniform, with tattoos showing on his chest and shoulders (a tattoo of Christ on his chest and a swastika emblem on each shoulder). He had been shot in the top of his head, which was shattered. Blood and brain matter was visible.

Ukraine research and resources
Here are links to random collection of Ukraine related research and resources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Links to my entire work covering the Ukraine crisis" – Chris Harrison, 5 Oct 2014

Maidan Investigation
" In particular, this study examines about 30 gigabytes of intercepted radio exchanges of the Security Service of Ukraine Alfa unit, Berkut, the Internal Troops, Omega, and other government agencies during the entire Maidan protests. These files were posted by a pro-Maidan Ukrainian radio amateur on a radio scanners forum, but they never were reported by the media or acknowledged by the Ukrainian government".
 * Detailed Maidan investigation (using radio intercepts, video evidence, etc): Ivan Katchanovski paper. Some difference in details, such as who set buildings on fire, compared to Moskal investigation. Confirms that SBU and MoI special units snipers were involved/present, and armed Maidan present.  The issue of who is to blame is investigated.
 * There seem to be audio files of Maidan intercepts. Wondering do they have it on Odessa. There seem to be no catalog, what is where.

--Resup (talk) 17:38, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
 * President Poroshenko: "Those who committed crimes against Maidan must be punished". Head of the Security Service of Ukraine Valentyn Nalyvaichenko reported that "the general from the ex-leadership of the Security Service of Ukraine suspected in the organization of cooperation with the group of Russian Federal Security Service officers had been detained and arrested. At the moment, the list of persons involved in planning and commitment of crimes is being made. The involvement of foreigners in these crimes is also being revealed. Former riot police officers have also been detained" (compare with Moskal investigation. He describes consultations with FSB officers, one of them extremely critical of the plan...So they got another less critical for consultation and brought him to visit in Kiev...But it was a consultant (and not the only one), not an FSB operation as they now may try to make this to appear...). --Resup (talk) 19:01, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Crime and Punishment
NR introduced Running the gauntlet" as punishment for various crimes committed by soldiers, eg stealing. Saw a video, 18 or 20 guys line up to form a corridor the convict has to jog through, everyone gives him one swipe with what looks like a long flexible cane. A very old traditional punishment, nowadays probably considered barbaric, but it works. I am quite sure the guy will never steal again. Saves them the problems of keeping him jailed, of course impossible to impose fines. How hard they get hit would depend how much he took and how upset they are about it, so automatically adjusts to severity of crime. Here it is on Cassad} [[User:KatKan|KatKan] (talk) 12:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Cassad" discussed crime problems in the past. Some issues with cars, in particular, which may be used in defense purposes; those type of things creates issues. They also have to deal with 'statistically normal' crime which is not going to go down for the reason of the conflict (likely it's the contrary). On western side, area is managed by cops (cop generals), so to compete, they need to have things in order. Flogging would look awful on Western TVs. Still better than some other European punishments from past centuries. They have many pressing problems, shelling, etc; hope they can put those things in order as well. --Resup (talk) 12:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Cluster munitions

 * ''See also Talk:Smerch attack on Ukraine tank base in Pobeda


 * Petri Krohn on Twitter – July 2, 2014
 * BM-30 Smerch
 * Kramatorsk
 * Krasnogorka
 * 300mm MRLS cluster munition

It is reported that multiple-per-rocket  mines dispersed by Ukraine from   Uragan missiles are being found in civilian areas in Gorlovka (a pro-Novorossia town). If such mine is not exploded, engaging a target, within a  time interval  of several hours,  it self-destructs by an explosion, which may injure or kill  civilians. This type of weapon is illegal, both as cluster munition and a landmine. --Resup (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * These I think are anti-TANK mines, low power, plastic case, designed to be crushed by the tracks and explosive enough to just blow the track. Probably enough to blow off a few curious fingers though. Either they don't know what they are, or are running low on anti-personnel ones. These are of course illegal in personnel areas; they time out and explode themselves in 2 to 40 hours (mixed timing in the one shell naturally). KatKan (talk) 12:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, looks like anti-tank, no metal parts anywhere. (Maybe the only thing out of many out there which the author was not afraid to photograph)--Resup (talk) 17:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

HRW

 * Ukraine: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions – HRW, October 20, 2014
 * ''Government Responsible for Cluster Attacks on Donetsk
 * Ukraine Used Cluster Bombs, Report Charges – ANDREW ROTH, NYT, 20 Oct 2014
 * ''The Ukrainian Army appears to have fired cluster munitions, a weapon banned in much of the world, into the heart of Donetsk, according to physical evidence and interviews with witnesses and victims.
 * ''The army’s use of cluster munitions, which shower small bomblets around a large area, could also add credibility to Moscow’s version of the conflict, which is that the Ukrainian national government is engaged in a punitive war against its own citizens.
 * Human Rights Watch: Ukrainian government forces use cluster munitions in Donetsk TASS, – October 21, 2014
 * ''Human Rights Watch researchers observed and photographed the remnants of the cargo sections of 16 Uragan and 6 Smerch cluster munition rockets

Samantha Lewthwaite killed?

 * Wanted British 'White Widow' terrorist Samantha Lewthwaite 'shot dead by Russian sniper in Ukraine' – Will Stewart, The Mirror, November 12, 2014
 * Hmmm... The same Mirror just before this reported her helping IS...She seems to have truly supernatural powers to cause some ruckus world-wide and reportedly getting killed in a number of places in a row... --Resup (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Dead or alive? Conflicting reports over ‘White Widow’ terrorist killing in Ukraine – RT, November 13, 2014
 * White widow 'dead': Reports Samantha Lewthwaite killed in Ukraine dismissed as false – The Independent, November 13, 2014
 * ''Aidar commander Sergiy Melnychuk told BuzzFeed News the reports were false. He said: “We don’t have any white widows, and nor could we. They’re [the Russians] trying to drive a wedge between us and our British allies.”

International Tribunal by Novorossia?
A (virtual) International Tribunal set by Novorossia is proposed by a lawyer in good standing. "Novorossiya therefore must set up its very own International Tribunal and give it independence to act in lieu of the UN, ICC, and Council of Europe. This bold act will result in recognition of the tribunal even when states may still shy away from recognizing Novorossiya itself. Progressive states will recognize the tribunal and its power to seize property and extradite criminals. Perhaps a third party country host can be found too" Dr. Jonathan Levy, Global Research.ca. Sounds interesting. Not sure how practical, or how those International Criminal Bars work, or whether anybody will pay attention. (Also, presumably it's pro bono work? No funding here. )   --Resup (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

False Flags and Real Flags
Several false flags were discussed already. Becoming inexpensive.

This one is kiborgs flag from the Airport, New Terminal Building, displayed by Zakharchenko. Offers to give it to Poroshenko, if he comes to Donetsk. In the past, World War II, loosing a flag was a big deal. Units were disbanded if their flag was lost. Happened to one of the divisions of the current Ukrainian Army in WWII 24-th rifle division. Flag was later found on a body, division restored, the guy who found the flag received a medal, and is forever listed as the  division member. --Resup (talk) 16:05, 16 January 2015 (UTC)